Tim Vickery & Miguel Pereira: The Champions League Is Bigger… But Is It Better?

0:00The Brazilian Shirt Name Podcast, the Dottinada Bio and Tim Bickery. Welcome to another edition of the Brazilian Shirt Name Podcast. It's going to be a lot of fun. The Legidino is in Rio. He's on good forms. He's always cracked to Joe Coutue, which we won't go into if you don't mind him. And welcome also to our regular friend Miguel Perriere who's with us as well. Amongst other things, he's written the book on Air Real Madrid, which is the greatest. I think that's your latest book, isn't it? Miguel, be working on another one about a porto. Yeah, he's doing one after writing the greatest. He's writing one about a team that's even greater. Is that right, Miguel? Yeah, but basically, when I was writing the greatest, I came with a title that I thought,

1:00okay, but my greatest is not Real Madrid. It's actually Polto. So better write that book as well. So when I finished the Madrid one, I started with the next one. And also bringing a Camisa to have see Camisa News show because basically, since we now Camisa is sure to import your gaze, basically, as an inspiration by Tim, I decide every time I come here, I'll bring a different Camisa into the show. And Thierryntine has 100 birthday this week. All right. Thank you, Miguel, because you've done my job for me to remind listeners that we are part of the FC Camisa family. Now, since the same Brazilian surname podcast as it's ever been, we found a new, bigger, and better home, FC Camisa, where football's story is told properly, which includes us, of course. And that's what we've been doing over the past six years. Today, though, we're going to look ahead to this year's Champions League. And we start with that one. Once upon a time, Miguel would have looked to Real Madrid, Barcelona, and maybe even Athletic Madrid to set the Champions League on fire.

2:06Are they in good form to be able to do that, to light up this year's Champions League or not? Yeah, I think they're one of the eight to 12 favorites because one in this new model was so much money in from so many clubs from the Prem also PSG, of course, Bayern, Inter. You have to count the money. But if you go with names, they are still there to go Madrid play the semifinals last year. And they haven't let Julio Alves go. So basically the same team a little bit better, but let's see how they faced that situation. Real Madrid, of course, bringing in Moreno, who dreams to win with Real Madrid. The third Champions League in his cabinet and the trophy that misses from his first Stint in Madrid and of course Barcelona, over the last couple of years, one of the most exciting teams in Europe yet to play a final. So this year they want to go one step further and get to that final, that Luminium, I really want to cling to. So I think the three Spanish sides will be in contention in April and then let's see who can join them as well. We have really, we have to talk about the format, don't we?

3:08This format because we grew up on the thing firstly as being knocked out all the way. And then group face, there was a flirtation with two group phases around the turn of the century. But now we've got this new, more league format. Personally, I don't really like it very much. I find it confusing. I don't really understand who's playing who and why. And I have really in the back of my mind that the main motivation behind the change was to create more content, more games. But I'm aware that other views are possible. But what do you think of the format Miguel and what changes do you think it's brought to the competition? Well, I think in essence, we're all getting old and as we get old, we tend to connect with the experiences we have when we were kids and those were the right experiences so it was the right former. It was the right content. And we talked about this during the World Cup, the right World Cup were the ones we watched

4:11when we were kids and then the former change teams were added and the experience kind of get diluted. So the cup winners cup, we were talking about offline about the Tottenham Porto match in 1991 for the Cup Winners Cup. The Cup Winners Cup is actually a competition that is born because the pools needed an ex-European game during the week to add in. So money has always been a motivation in European continental football and the evolution of the European cup to the Champions League was a question of money and also the big clubs trying to get more power over UEFA who will basically run that amateurishly by the day. Then they started to get the second group stage. They started to get the idea of breaking the super league. And now I think everything is about really forgetting where we came from and just looking ahead because decisions are not think about the people of our generation. They are thinking about the new generation, thinking about making more money. So our perspective really doesn't matter at all to UEFA, FIFA, the football leagues, whatever. I personally don't like it but I then again started to watch football matches with the

5:15old European cup for a couple of years. But my first experience of a European match at a stadium was actually the first Champions League match in history. A Poulto 3-3 PSV draw in the group stage. The same night Markov and Boston scored four against the FKGP and in the year at Marseille won the Champions League final to that Milan side of Capello. So I actually have memories of the pre-European cup days, I wrote a book about it. Then I lived the Champions League in his early stages so for me it's very hard to say what's right and what's wrong. What I actually know is that this is not my generation. This is not my format but there's nothing I can do about it. Did you notice that he referred to our generation? Well that was a fact. That's very kind of him. That was very kind of. That was a very important piece of diplomacy. Indeed. Indeed. And also well brought up see as we say in Jamaica he's been well brought up see. But he did say we're all getting old and I thought whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. We're getting older, that is true.

6:15And that doesn't negate the fact that you may be old and getting older but I like to think myself as the other end of the scale. But like you I do share the days when the romance of the days when the Champions League was known as the European cup and then the biggest cup they could find in Europe to go with it as well. Yes. As how you knew it was a real tournament because they had the biggest cup didn't they? However, this is what we switch off until April then. Is that what you're saying? I mean, you're saying you're going to go well essentially switch off. Forget all about it. We're in the United States. Before you answer that Miguel, let me explain what you a for thinks is the simplicity of the new format. I know it goes against the grain of your thinking. So they've expanded the number of teams. They're taking a leaf out of FIFA's book. The more teams are more revenue, the more content as Tim would say hence and therefore

7:16the more revenue etc. And more teams can participate. You know, they feel as if they've been part of it. Kate Verde, I'm sure they're all still buzzing in that country. And Karaku too. I'm sorry, Karaku. What was the other team that made it? What a sum. It grew a sour apologies. It's going to be like a loser and try and catch you out. Wait till I start speaking Swedish. Then it'll be your turn. However, you say you can see what they've done. They've expanded from 32 teams to 36 teams. Okay. So far, they're in the, you know, recognized ballpark of what you feel as a competition is divided by four. And they put everybody in the one same big league to begin with. What could be more easy than that? You know, that's as easy as it goes, isn't it? Look, they're all in it or nearly all the European teams are in it. I've just Googled. They're actually 44 European countries, apparently, but who knows? Those borders shifted so on.

8:16There could have been a few more in it, but they've limited it to 36. So there'll be some European countries you have to fight against the next one, but they're all playing each other. And I know Tim, I know what that means. But the evidence of the World Cup is that even the smaller teams can cause an upset and provide for entity. Yeah, I've never had anything against the expansion of the World Cup, apart from logistical things. I wasn't necessarily against 48. My question mark with the Champions League is, I don't understand why, why is this team playing that team? I don't understand it. Do you understand it Miguel? Can it be understood? Or is it just in Tali random? I think they used the coefficient of its club and its nation. And then again, I think they really don't care if you understand it or not. But have a disclaimer for you. Did you knew that the draft, the original draft by Gabriel Anor, the guy who invented the

9:18European Cup alongside a new Ukrainian agent of players who people don't talk about too much called Ukraine's key? So basically the first draft was a football league. It wasn't a knockout. It was a league. It was a league very similar to this one. Only because then it was very hard for clubs to move around and train or in planes. They ended up saying logistically it was impossible to do. And combined that with the national leagues and the clubs, so they moved to the knockout stages. And before it was like only three for rounds. So it was much easier to put into the calendar. So in a sense, I think football is always coming to its origins. And now the idea is like you divide the teams that are there in full different groups, depending on how relevant they have been in the European competitions. And you have to play. Your team has to play two of each group and one of your own group. So basically they try to move in that direction. The thing is, is it fairer if you get to a place and you have played a side at home,

10:18but then you don't get to go to their stadium because that was always the idea behind European Cup when wolves, when Stenka is wolves, beat on vet. The text of Gabriella knows starts by saying, how can wolves proclaim themselves champions of Europe if they haven't gone to Budapest and play on vet at their own turf? So now I played on their own turf. And they waterlogged the pitch to make it and they were there. There is a Brazilian shirt named podcast about this very game. The day that wolves started the European Cup by the local press, the English press proclaiming them as champions after beating Honbed on a waterlogged pitch. And we'll probably find, put a link to that particular chat. Somewhere around here, there's some homework for you, Seb. There you go. Yeah, or by the way, there was one other thing we didn't mention was that each of the teams has to play at least eight matches. So, you know, the ends up, I agree. When you look on paper, you think, well, what is that team doing against that team?

11:20I understand where Tim is coming from in that respect, Miguel. But ultimately, like you say, some people will care, but you wafer don't care if they care or not. The rest of us, will we be entertained? That's the first thing I want to know. Will I be making a weekly appointment or buy weekly appointment or whatever it is to watch the Champions League this season? I think we're always going to be entertained by football when the best players go on to the pitch. So, the idea of the group stage was like for sort of 20 to 30 years, particularly since the best two or three and four teams from the Prem, from La Liga, from Serriam, Bundesliga started to come in. They were always playing the same teams all over again. They were repeating the same rules every single season, because of all the conditioning in the draft. So, the idea now is that every single season brings new spectacle. That's not entirely true because we have seen some duels be repeated, but we also see a lot of new duels between teams that are European royalty by name,

12:22teams that want to become European royalty, mostly because the money they have, and old school names that we know won't be there in April, but they still bring some sort of a connection with the past. So, whenever you go to Ukraine, or wherever you go to Sweden, or wherever you go to Portugal, to Greece, you remember those European Cup days, or at least the first years of the Champions League. So, all that into one will always bring some good spectacle on the pitch, but also it will remind you as a football supporter of duels from the past, and then that will probably ignition an experience in your mind that you want to taste this new one, because you remember that in 97, for instance, Dortmund played Real Madrid, and it was bonkers for the same reason. So, basically, I think that's one of the main reasons why the Champions League group stage, despite not being as relevant to the competition as it once was in the past, still matters. Is there a point that you would advise us to start watching? At what point would you say, look, if not the business end of things,

13:22which are Champions League, but it will be worth sort of concentrating on? I'm thinking, when the big guns play fair enough, but at what point along the trajectory of this new format do we join in? Well, just to add into that, who of the clubs that aren't traditional big guns, should we be looking out for now? I think we have to start from the beginning. I really enjoyed the playoff rounds, because there are always good stories there, and that's why you tried to get the first glimpse of the Undead Dogs, of those beautiful stories of size that you already know, won't be there probably in April, May, but will entertain you. And we had last year the example of Botoclin from Norway. They were a side that for a lot of years were doing well in the conference league, and doing well in the Europa League, and then last year they really showed them how they could be competitive in Champions League. So, you never know who the next Botoclin is going to be, but you do know that there are a group, like we mentioned,

14:24before 10 sides that you expect them to perform, you expect them to be there. But then again, if you look to teams in smaller leagues, you have important or portal is coming back to season, it will be very interesting because they went to the point. There are an interest. Yeah. Completely interested, yeah. But you also have Italian sides, who are starting to not going to the riches of the old days of Syria, but are starting to better their performances in Europe as well. And you also have those glimpses of Dutch clubs who really suddenly know how to perform and get to the playoff rounds in February, March. So, those are the nations that usually bring the underdogs to the story. Because let's face it, football has become a stuff for three football leagues over the past few years. It's a question of LaLiga, the Prem, and eventually the Bundesliga with PSG dropping in because of the money. We know who they are. And every single time there's a good story to tell, it's usually coming from Portugal, from the Netherlands, and eventually from Ukraine. So, if a side really kicks in during the next few months

15:27and gets to January in a good position to qualify themselves directly or to the playoffs from one of those stories either would follow. What about Carmel, Italy? There are side, under Fabregas. I haven't seen much of them. I would like to see more. Should I be investing two hours of a weekday afternoon, as it is over here in Brazil, China, what's Carmel? I think Carmel is coming to beat the New Atalanta. For those who know how high Patalanta was over the last 10 years in Italian football, not actually winning anything, but a cup I think was the only civil way they got. But they were very entertaining side, and Carmel has been a very entertaining side in Serie A as well. And now it will be very interesting to see how do they make the jump to the big guns. Because one thing is, you grow up playing Serie A, a league that has been balanced, but no juggernaut in it. And then you come to the European competitions, and you're not only playing the big clubs, but you also play smaller clubs, but who are the big fish on their small palms?

16:27So they have a different attitude when they play. And Carmel is still a small fish, even in Serie A. But they have loads of money. They have invested very well. I think Fabregas is the traits. They have the traits of becoming a very interesting football manager over the years to come. So I think those will be interesting players to see, and also the possibility that they got to play on their home turf. I think we'll be decisive because they will talk. They will be forced to play in San Ciro. But then they got the way for approval to play at home. And I think that will work out in that favor of you. Well, yeah. And let's cut to the chase. Out of these 36 teams that were taking part, of course, they don't represent all the countries in Europe. Because some countries have got several contestants in each phase. So for example, England have got five teams, coefficient wise and otherwise. Germany, again, they've got four teams in it. It's Spain. They've got one, two, three, four, five teams in it.

17:28And you wonder whether looking at this, because I can't see many of the outsiders coming through, going all the way to the final at Let's Go Madrid stadium next June or whenever it is. I can't see any of the other runners and riders. There are some interesting teams in there, but let's face it. I think, well, can we put it down to this, that it will be one of three or four countries, and possibly only two or three countries. The teams from those two or three countries are likely to win the Champions League. Or is that a two-minimalist? Should we go in terms of clubs? They're probably only three or four clubs that are realistically going to win this? Well, I think it's been like this for the last 20 years, really. Since I would say 2005, since Paul to last won it in 2004. Since then, all the wins have come from the Prem, from LaLiga, from Serie A,

18:29from the Bundesliga, and now with PSG with League 1. We know they are still and will always be the famous, because that's where the money is. And in the end, money by success and in football, like another part of life, that is an unpatent more truth. So, the only good stories we have enjoyed so far are when clubs from smaller nations, like Ajax, for instance, a few years ago, got to the semi-finals, but even then, we're beaten by famously Tottenham, and that crazy return match. So, even the good stories of sides outside of Big League doesn't end very well. So, the Champions League has become a place for the big guys. I think that that's inevitable. And from the big leagues, as you mentioned, it always goes to the sides who are better paid, the sides that have better budgets, the sides who have the better players. And you know that in the end, from the three-four top leagues, that resumed to a group of six, seven, maximum eight sides. So, everyone knows that the thing is, they do play each other in the knockout stages. They do eventually eliminate themselves from the competition.

19:31Sometimes that opens a vacancy. If the right conditions are in, if the context is correct, we kind of have a surprise of a side, not from those big leagues, getting into the quarterfinals, eventually to the semi-finals. But I think we all know this by this time, that no side from Turkey, Greece, Portugal, Russia, Ukraine, or whatever nation will be in the final imagery. I think we all know that. I think that died in the 1990s. And people that made peace with it, they have reconnected with the idea of the conference lead, with the idea of the Europa League, bringing those sort of solace to those countries. And everybody knows that come may and come to final in Madrid. It will be either a prem side, a La Liga side, or eventually PSG, or biomeonic, or Inter, who will be there. Well, I remember when we were first getting into it, when some of the cities that were providing winners, it was kind of relatively small industrial cities of Europe, notting them, for example, twice.

20:36And in the 21st century, only two new cities have provided winners for the Champions League, London and Paris. Yeah, London and Paris, so small places. Yeah, that's what they say, Liverpool, about London anyway. It was the domain of the kind of smaller, perhaps, in some ways, industrial cities. And now, I know right at the start, you get Real Madrid and Ben Fika. But there's a little bit of an anomaly there, because this has something to do with that post-war fascism of Franco and Salazar and centralised regimes. But elsewhere around Europe, it's Milan, it's Manchester, Glasgow, well, I've got Glasgow, I might think of Glasgow as a capital, but in terms of the UK, it isn't. And then it's Amsterdam, but Amsterdam's a relatively, you know, it's not a giant city,

21:41but now the big capitals, because they have the money to sustain football clubs with the pockets deep enough to win this competition. So it's fascinating to me that going into the 21st century, neither London nor Paris had ever won the Champions League, and they're the two cities who have now got their hands on it. And the Champions League, as it is now. Yeah, and probably, the biggest club who have not won the Champions League is Arsenal. They keep trying, they keep knocking, but they can't get in. But one of these days, one of these days, that draw of which is going to fall, and it's going to happen for them. And maybe they're losing. Both Madrid Lisbon, who won in the first seven editions, were actually poor, they're notting them by the time they won it. So they were capitals from very poor countries. The GPD of Portugal and Spain in the early 60s was worse than Iraq and Iran by that time. So, fortunately, one of the events was the price of social peace.

22:41Let's cut the education budget every year. So essentially, that's the truth, but it happens everywhere. Black were won the Premier League with Jack Walters money in the 90s, but then which smaller side for Lancashire or from the Midlands has won the Premier League afterwards. Licister. That's the truth. Also because they had the money from Arsenal. It happens everywhere. The Serie A, another prime example, you had the Sampdoria's, you had Lazio Rome winning the league. Even Elas Verona, Napoli. But over the last 20 years, it's all about Juventus Inter in a semi-line. So it's happening everywhere. I was in Rome last month, and one on the main street. There's a big shop selling Juventus stuff. I was thinking, how can this be? This is Rome. Can you see a way back for Serie A? I know Inter got to the final and did very well in that year when they lost in narrowly to Main City. But can you imagine Serie A being a big player again?

23:41No. I think they're still lagging. And I think they lack three key elements. They lack the infrastructure. If you go to Italy to see a football match, you see the stadiums are still there till the 90s stadiums. They haven't been great in most of them. So it all starts there. You need to have good infrastructure. It's just to be a successful football club today. Then you need to have very good players. And Italy adds a way of surprising everyone. And the result of the national side have been a prime example that they haven't developed their own top players in a very long time. So the success of the Serie A was the mixture between bringing the best of the world, but also to join in with the best they produced. And the best they produced were actually very, very good. And now they aren't able to do so. So when you're not a league like the Prem, who has all the money in the world, they'll put the span. You need to be like a leagueer who hasn't much money. Actually, there was only the falsely expanding in this summer. Only better than league one, but behind Serie A and behind Bundesliga. But they do produce huge talents.

24:44So I cannot bring the best players in, but I can produce them. Germany as well, but Italy has failed to produce top talent over and over again. And then I think it has also to do with the ownership of football clubs. So Italy has always been an industrial league. The clubs usually belong to industrial families who really connected with the club because they were fans when they were kids or the families were connected to the club in multiple capacities. But that all changed over the past 15 years. And the ownership are mostly from people who are abroad who doesn't connect with the club, doesn't connect with the defaults. So for them, that is also an issue to thrive and to grow. So there will be good teams in Italy. There will be competitors in Italy. But the idea of seeing Italy as a big player, as La Liga is. And obviously, like the Prem, it's a very far away to happen again. This is such a fascinating insight, Miguel. Generally, this is what Brazil's shirt name podcast is all about as it's written a book on this. Which is so thick that you would never ever want to drop it on your foot.

25:49That's a level of detail that this man has gone into on this subject. Mate, you're not supposed to drop it on your bloody foot, you're supposed to read it. There's Michael K. I'd say. Indeed. I tried both. I tried both. I know I learned much more from reading it than I did from dropping it on my foot. That's not a bad one, Tim. That is not a bad one. I did learn never to drop it on my foot again. But anyway, onwards and sidewise. I'm trying. Yeah, that's the one lesson that you get of dropping anything on your foot, as most. But as much as you say, Miguel, and you know, you get given that analysis of the way that nations, if not leagues, are constructed for better or worse, and whether that construction enables the teams from those leagues and nations in the Champions League or not. One thing that you said about not developing talent, I totally get it.

26:52However, it's like you said about UEFA. Nobody cares anymore, really. You know, although Paris has your amount to give them their dues, I feel or possibly could be filled with players from the Paris area, more than most other teams in the Champions League. Then you get Germany. This is where I think the most intriguing prospect of a Champions League winner this season comes from, by a Munich. Yes, they do develop their own players, but they also rely very much on players from overseas to give them whatever extra boost they need to get over the line. They didn't do too badly last season. Now Harry Kane says he wants to win it all, and the one thing missing, it clubwise, anyway, is the Champions League. Could this be the season that Bayern Munich just managed to push

27:52PSG, for example, a little bit further? I think the top four candidates for me are PSG, because if you went back to back, you need to be considered yourself prime candidate, of course. And they have improved their squad as well, and they have one of the best managers in the world. So I think that's for granted. Arsenal, like Tim mentioned, they have a sustaining growth of the last few years, and after winning the Prem, they can really focus on the Champions League this year. I think they didn't have the legs to do both in the last season, and it was very hard for them to be competitive. And Prem this year will change, because no one will be able to see how every side goes, but the idea of needing 90 plus points seems not as natural today as it was back when he was Man City coach. Then of course, you have Barcelona mentioned before. Very exciting, but they have failed to get to the final, but each year it seems they get near. And of course, they're spying. And Harry Kane's one of the prime candidates who in the ball end all, of course, Luiz Diaz, all a lot of German players who have been providing the backbone of the club.

28:52So for me, they are the top four candidates to be in the final in Madrid. And Bayern pretty much is a side that represents not only the past royalty of what European Cup was, but they also understood how the Champions League behaves. And when they decided that we need a top player to go against the big sides in the Prem or against the big money in Paris, they went and went from one of the best, and they have went for R&K not to in Bundesliga because they have been winning in tens and twelves over the years. They have gone for R&K to win the Champions League and R&K moved to Munich to win the Champions League. So I think eventually that may come to pass and this season at least the next two that is expected to remain there. The one that I really want to see is Barcelona. And as you said, they got close. And now you wonder, you know, Coobar C and Yamal, that year older, that bit more maturity. Adding to the squads, you know, possibly because it's a subjective thing. It's the happiest memory

29:52football has ever given me, I think, in some ways, being at Wembley when they won for the first time in 1992. It's just a fabulous, fabulous footballing memory. And it's an obsession with them, isn't it? It is. You know, because with Real winning all of the first ones, they've always been playing, been measuring themselves against that. And I'm playing Orange. But they had this one. This one was their kid from the season. I've only played. And one of the greatest things, me go, was that they played, they did play in a grotesque orange that night. It was a horror. It was not a nice orange. There are good oranges. Orange is Frank Sinatra's favorite color because he said every time you put a bit of orange, they would always make things happier. But that was a horrible orange. But one of the finest things was this is a club who recognized who they are after the final whistle when they won. To go and collect the trophy, they all changed into that shirt. You know, they couldn't go up and pick up the trophy in a shirt that wasn't really there.

30:57I understand the Dutch connection with the orange and so on. But it had to be, they had to go and pick up the cup in their own colors. And I think that's, that there's greatness in that. And I would love to see them go and pick up the cup in their own colors again in nine months time. And it's very interesting because this will be the first season without Levantowski. So Levantowski was primed them to retain a sort of dominance in the league. But over the last few years it became clear that it was a player that didn't connect with the fluidity that flicked and manned it to his striking force. But now with Levantowski gone, they had Anthony Gordon in. They just signed Gabriel Jesus when they actually wanted was Julian Arvarez, of course. But they signed Gabriel Jesus because they want to have a front three line that is moving all over the place. They want Rafine and they want Lameen to be always changing positions. With Levantowski, they couldn't do that. But now they are able to do so and they have been proving in the beginning of La Liga. They have been scoring for fun. So we will expect to see

32:00in the European nights a very entertaining Barcelona as we have seen in the past editions. But now we have players that also become World Champions like you mentioned. They have upgraded their game. So they know now that what misses in their CV, they have been European champions, they have been World Champions. Now it's the Champions League that is missing. And for Barcelona Champions League, as you know, is very important because it's the competition that their big rivals have dominated so much that every time they get closer to them is the next way of getting happier. So for them winning the Champions League this year will be key to the success of this sporting project of La Porta and his third arrival as Barcelona chairman. Does the exit of Levantowski and a more fluid front three, does that make them more like Paris Saint-Germain? Yes, I think it makes him more close to what Bayern and PSG have been. And of course, you're getting players who have been there for the past two years and they're getting mature. So in the first year of La Mini Amal, you would expect stuff that would be great for Reals

33:03and Instagram or YouTube, Skills and Videos. But it wasn't really thinking about the team. But now is the moment you're a player and we saw that in the World Cup when it was playing as 60, 70%, but it still helped the team out. And now you get that, you don't get Levantowski in the box, but you have loads of players coming into the box at different times. So it will be harder for a position defender to mark. It will be easy for them to just search for the better option. And for Flickit will be ideal because this is a side that really hasn't won anything with the club outside of Spain. So it's their time to prove once again that they are a generation worthy of being compared with the Barcelona generation of Pep Guardiola, even the Barcelona generation of Luis and Rickey. Yeah, I still think there is something in the fact that PSG making their third attempt at winning this, the first two successful back-to-back, Champions League victories and now going for a third one and still being the favourites for

34:03the third one, even after offloading some of the Italian over the summer, primarily Bradley Barclayer, I think. Okay, to some extent a bit part player for PSG and Champions League, but always a very important bit part player. Got 90 minutes to win the game, haven't you? Bring him on the last 20, long legs, rangey figure, who wants to defend against someone fresh like that for the last 20 minutes? And we saw that in the World Cup as well, the moment he came on and played, he was scintillating for a lot of it anyway. And I wonder if there is something, Miguel, in the fact that here we have PSG playing for a weak league in league with all due respect, not having to stretch themselves for the entire season right up until the very last match, as you would expect, and let's say the Premier League to win it at least, I wonder if there's something in the fact that they, because they're playing for these weak leagues, their legs aren't so tired. And in that case,

35:07whether again, you know, by Munich, who are not playing in as weak a league, but clearly, you know, they win the Bundesliga at Canter, most times, you know, with the blip being when Jabi Alonzo went to give them some help in Leverkusen. But anyway, do you not think that it makes it easier? Because there's so many ways to win the Champions League and you've alluded to so many of the background, if you like, the infrastructure, things that need to be in place and all. But do you not think part of the way to win the Champions League is to have an easy season domestically? It's complex in a sense that if it had been so much easier than all the great PSG teams prior to Lisenricke, could have won it, and none of them did. Or even in the case of the Bundesliga Bayern has won some, but as in one as often as probably the quality of their sights would demand. So even PSD last year, they asked for

36:11a match against Lamp, who were playing against him for the title, to be postponed so they could prepare for a Champions League match. So even they realized that they need fresh legs. But there's one thing for sure. I've been saying this for years. One of the main reasons why I think the Premiership hasn't provided as many club winners as you might expect from a league able to foster so many managers, so many great players, is because of the demanding of the Premier League in terms of the calendar. And that is being happening over the past 20 years. If you look at the big names of the Premier League over the past 20 years, then you look at the Champions League finals. Most of them not even got their close. And despite dominating the Premier League, despite being very good at Premier League, and we saw that in Man City with Guardiola, we even saw that with the Liverpool of Yogan Club, but even backwards with the Man United, the Arsenal, the Liverpool's of the 2000s. So it makes it harder for you if you have to play Wicked Wicked out with very tough challenges to be able to have fresh legs than to play with the very best in the continent.

37:11But also, if you're playing Wicked in Wicked out against size that you're expected to just win it easily, then sometimes players disconnect when they go and play against size with much more competitive and have different ideas. So it is a very tricky compliment. I think Liza Wicked did found the right formula to it. The same way that probably, Ansif Plague and Yupinkas did with Bayern, even Yogan Club at Dolphmann. But it's a very hard trick to motivate your players to disconnect themselves over the weekend because they are expected to win the strives books or they expect to win against a VW Bremen's. And then reconnect themselves when they play Real Madrid or when they play Arsenal in the midweek. And we've seen, I think, in recent years from some of the amounts of goals have been scored in the big games between the big clubs. You think, you know, it might be some of these big clubs, I've just forgotten how I defend. Yeah, that's it. Because they do. Because if you see a Bayern match,

38:11sometimes you're just watching the highlights of a Bayern match and they say someone put two past Bayern, yeah, but they score seven or six. So they don't mind in getting a goal in, because they know they're going to win the game. That doesn't happen in the Champions League. If you get a goal in in the Champions League, you're going to get trouble. So it happens with the French side, even with Italian side. So in a sense, when you are a very big fish in a very small pond, you're used to be doing things your way. But then you go to play with the other big fish, just from other bigger ponds and it's harder for you to be the same sort of team. So you need to reset your mind. And it's very hard professionally to reset the mind of 22 players, 22 human beings who just behave one way during half the season. They have to behave one way for seven or eight matches a season, which is not the very happy solution for any football manager. And that's why I think Luzericchi has a lot of credit for what it did in Paris. Because he created it in practically from scratch, without egos, willing to work for the common good. And he remained competitive,

39:11both in lead one and in Europe as well. And this was very striking to me in that club World Cup, which I think is, I know the Canada is overcrowded and we've seen the effect that it's had on Col Parmer in the subsequent season. But it's a terrific idea. And one of the things that was just so clear to me, is just how magly attacking the big European sides are. They're just unbuttoned from a South American perspective. They're just unbelievably attacking. Now, the centre backs will push right up. They'll go one on one against the strike as at all times. And they'll do it 60 meters from their own goal, where you don't get South American sides playing that very often. As Pep Guardiola for you, isn't it? And the interest of the high pressure. I remember he's now a culture of Monaco, but Philippi Louise, the former Let's Come with Rich Chelsea defender, was a culture of Flamengo when they lost to Bayern Munich. And he was saying after the game, you know, they're centre backs, they're just extraordinary. You know, because

40:14the centre backs are like, they're built like war jobs, but they're out running over 10 meters. They're out running over 50 meters. And they'll come right up and they'll take the ball from you, 40 meters from your own goal. But you know that some of those centre backs that they're using, yeah, I was going to say, some of those centre backs that they're using nowadays that you're looking at from South American perspective, they're wingers, essentially. They're wingers who've been told to do a job and you know, bring your size with it as well. But yeah, when when when Barcelona won that that first Eurofacult Champions League in 92, essentially the two at the heart of the defence, a Ronald Cuman who never defended and Guardiola who never defended. It's no wonder that on Viagli, I like three chances when he's one on one with a goalkeeper because that's a risk that they're taking. All right, you will. We just lost Franco Barrezi a few weeks ago. Franco Barrezi wouldn't get a minute in the top side of today because he was there to defend,

41:18exclusively to defend. And he would defend like no one else in the world, but he wasn't doing anything else but defend. And now the big clubs use defenders to have creative midfielders. And that's as you were mentioning, the croif legacy, the idea of the central defender needs to be the part of the construction of the game instead of the structure of the game. And now you have the big guys with all those creative players, but they don't actually really know how to defend when they're playing against top attackers. So that's why you get so much goals because you can be very good running forward the ball, but then Embapeg comes running to you and you don't know exactly what to do and basically use your speed, use your force, but then you know the defensive techniques of the kind of arrows of old or the John Terry's of old. And that's the thing. The biggest difference for me is that even the smaller clubs embrace that philosophy. So there are no Franco Barrezi's playing the mid clubs either because they are trying to replicate the same thing as the big clubs only with worse players. Well, that's changing, it's changing in England just because the sides,

42:22the smaller sides have seen that in order to survive in the Premier League, that's probably not the best way of playing. You mentioned Ibape there. How important is this Champions League to him? To him and to Maurinho, it will be very important to both and I think they're really understood and Embapeg has been running wild in the beginning of the season for Real Madrid. They're playing good, not spetacally, but good. And I think he really needs it because it's the one in that group of players that Real Madrid has that group of egos where you have the issues, where you have to evolve over there, where you have Gidbellingham that hasn't won the Champions League ever. So it's starting to get that sort of a buzz that you get when you do the list of the great players that never won the Champions League and you get the names of Maradona of Ronaldo Nazari of Zlatan Yvreinovich and then you're starting to hear the buzz. Is Embapeg's name going to be there or what? Is he ever going to get it? Because then Karra is there, happy isn't there because they got two ones who was out and in Madrid, they are not very happy that is there because they stop winning once

43:26you arrive. So it really needs to take that one in and I think it will be highly motivated after the World Cup to be this year a better performance for the club. But in Real Madrid, you really depend on the collective. You really depend on other people perform as well as you because they are such a frail team in terms of tactics that in a sense Embapeg knows he could score 20 goals in the Champions League this season but if they defend like they have been defending over the past seasons, things will not work out good for him. So I think that's the reason why the big names will trust Maurinho at least at the beginning of the season because he can provide that to them. He can try to provide that solidity back saying I can create a context where you could be yourself and you're not going to be exposed in the back as you were which I've been alone so with Albelloa or even with late Karlo and Chalote and perform up front that I'll guarantee that we're not getting goals for a first scoring at the back. If that works out then Real Madrid is also a prime contender of course because they have one of the best players in the world in Embapeg hunger for that Champions League

44:27debut win. I didn't realize that Embapeg had that particular monkey on his back and chanting you have him on the Champions League. You must go where the final wins are. Champions League you're having a laugh. I am having a laugh. You have a run it like we used to do with the French when they had it won the World Cup and now of course they do with us you have only one shot. Okay just humor me because we're coming to a point where we're going to wrap up this conversation Tim said and he said it a couple of times he said I just don't understand why some of those teams are playing some of those teams. So can we go through just the first three days opening week of the Champions League match day one Tuesday 8th of September followed by Wednesday 9th of September and Thursday 10th of September. Just tell me which ones you don't understand why they're

45:28playing the other team and then maybe Miguel could explain. Do you know what I mean? There's this draw for that you know so I don't really understand any of it and you work out. You need a calculator and you work out it's all very complicated. So I'll come back in in March when we get down to the business. But before then I co-affins versus last do you understand why they're playing each other? No no the only thing I understand from the the the first week of action is that four is an apple. That's it. Four is an apple. Yeah don't go beyond four is an apple in the first week. An apple. Now why might that be? Have a look at the fixtures? Yeah I'm looking at the fixtures now. Why might that be? Napoli are playing the Arsenal. Oh yeah of course they are. I'm sorry oh well. Yeah let's leave. I don't know versus Ian Wright yet. Well yes indeed.

46:30It was a point of time. Look let's say I'm right. I'm a napoli. What are ludicrous things to do? Yeah yeah. The napoli. I think they're on. I think this is a European cup match from 1990 I think when Arsenal won the league and then they were banned to play because of Isle but that could have happened. So Napoli against Arsenal in 1990. Yeah. So these are the matches choose one that you definitely going to watch. Ico Athens versus Lask. That's 645 on Tuesday and club brews. This is Tuesday from September club brews versus Arsenal Villa. British Adortment versus Villa Rial. Porto versus Manchester City I suppose you'd be watching that definitely Miguel. Yeah and Lille versus Real Betis. You'll be in the stadium as well. Yeah. Yeah. Oh you've got a report back for us please. Yeah. Okay. Look out for Miguel reporting back for us from the Porto versus Manchester City game. It will be absolutely amazing to get your commentary on that one. Lille versus Real Betis and Real Madrid versus Inter. You've got to watch that one even in South

47:31America. You're too. Real Madrid versus Inter. Yeah but I'm also also interested in Betis and Lille. Betis. Lille because the coach is now Angelotti's son. David Angelotti. Oh yes of course. Yes. Yes. And he who was on the coaching staff during the World Cup for Brazil but also had a go solo with Botafogel last year and didn't do badly and Betis I like the stripes. I do like I like a green. I like a green. A green stripe. Not for the green. There's Anthony there who's such a fascinating player. Anthony. You know such a big money sign for United and it didn't work out but it has been working out at Betis and Angelotti called up to one of his first Brazil Scots and I always wonder with him. The winger a lot of it is confidence when it's one on one but also what he wants to do because he's very left footed and he plays on the right. He wants to get

48:33round his defender so much that he can get round the defender and still use the inside foot, still use the left foot. So he's got to be in by a lot in order in order to do that and how much of his relative failure in the Premier League was because he couldn't do that. The defenders were quicker and better and stronger and he couldn't get round them enough to you to then use his left foot. So he's a player who fascinates me because he's infuriating. He can be very, very poor but he can do brilliant things but can he do brilliant things at the very top level or did the Premier League find him out in terms of he's not quite good enough to get round and still use his left foot when he gets past the defender. So that interest me. You saw that when he played Chelsea in the conference like final a couple of seasons ago. He was one of the best players in the competition so far then he gets to the final and Chelsea

49:35completely nullifies him. So I think Betis is people in UK doesn't realize that Betis is like the new castle of Spain. They are huge in Spanish football, historically speaking but they just don't want a lot but the fan base is incredible and the history of the club, the culture of the club is great. They also have one of the most underrated South American managers ever in Manuel Piligree. His work has been over the past 25 years absolutely brilliant whatever you went and it really deserves to keep it as a project has been sustained through time. Over the last few years this was a club that was the second tier 10 years ago and then they started to go back to the league then back to play European football regularly. Now they got to the Champions League and they got finally something they were lacking over the last few years and that's a striker who can score goals in throw a par at. So I'm very curious to see how Troy Parrot will behave himself in the Champions League because he's done a great season in the erudivisa with his Aziakma and there was talks about how we would be a possible reinforcement for West Ham but then he decided to move to

50:37Seville and a lot of people are remembering London saying how could you prefer go to Seville instead of playing in the championship with that sum Champions League that's why and I think Parrot will have a good time. I've never been there but what would anyone not go to Seville? Why? I've been there it's pretty nice. And you get a nice color of their orange there as well by the way Tim. Oh in on Wednesday I suppose we've got a match that Tim would say why Paris Saint-Germain playing Slovian, Bretis Lava but that aside Liverpool versus Athletico Madrid. Liverpool versus Athletico Madrid that is going to be a match to watch isn't it? Indeed. We go. When I think of Liverpool, that you can always think about the COVID-19 and that was the game was a match that brought a lot of the virus moving around and it's new projects for both clubs so Liverpool is starting to get the grip of what Undehr Lava wants from the players and late reinforcements in Barca Lava so they are still trying to create a concept of who they are

51:40and Athletico Madrid with Siméone is like the same thing all over again. They start a new every single season because of the players coming in because the players going out this year because of Julien Algorithm is not going out so people are very expecting to see why kind of a virgin will be there in Undehr pitch and even if Siméone starts playing him in the front line or if he goes to the subbench for a couple of weeks trying to do some sort of tenets. So in that sense it will be a very interesting side from two sides that theoretically would be among the top 10, 12 sides we would expect to see playing at least the semi-finals. And then on the Thursday, Fernabéach versus Roma, Roma doing really well in the opening part of the Serie A season and Fernabéach playing at home against them. I could see that being one to keep an eye on as well. Yeah so Fours are definitely, is that what you were saying? Fours are, so just to keep it balanced,

52:41just to keep it balanced, the Arsenal fans would reply, up yours Tim Vickery, at least we're in the Champions League. And they have every right to do so. I'm not going to be angry with them for using such language. It works out. I have treated them this day with no respect and I apologise. Yeah I'm sure Shakespeare used that. Up yours, Béf, I am McDuff and I was not untimely ripped from my mother's womb. Sorry, I was not born of woman, I was untimely ripped from my mother's womb anyway, you know what I'm saying. It's been amazing Miguel. Thank you very much. Miguel Pereira of course, so you can read his book The Grace is the and neverending journey of Real Madrid is available and hopefully will speak to you next week or will have from you next week when you've watched the Porto game as well. Miguel is over. Thank you and Tim. Yeah nice shirt. Thank you. Schneime about the boat race. See the only one I got. I never said that but you know if you feel like

53:45if the cat fits the boat race then go for it. Oh by the way don't forget, we are on FC Camisa, Tim is that good enough for you? That'll do for me. Yeah you're wearing the shirt. Yeah Brazilian shirt name podcast we come to you twice a week on the FC Camisa platform. We'll speak to you again soon.