Understanding Clayton Echard’s “Love Trapped” Case

0:00This is an I Heart Podcast. Guaranteed Human. Pull up a chair to at the table the Food Allergy Podcast. Each episode they explore how food allergies shaped away, we travel, date, celebrate and connect. Because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat. It's about still having your seat at the table. Brought to you by Genentech and Novartis. Listen to at the table the Food Allergy Podcast on America's number one podcast network I Heart. Follow at the table and start listening on the free I Heart Radio app today. My friend said this one's and I have adopted it as my own. She goes I'm not a crunchy mom, but I'm a crispy mom. And I'm like that is me too. Like of course we're going to have our junk food days. But primarily when we're eating inside the house. I am very particular about what I buy and make for my kids. Because sometimes you know like for example.

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4:16So we have a guest today. He has practiced criminal law for nearly 15 years and he served as a legal expert on CNN and KTLA and LA. Please welcome to the podcast Ryan Kerns to help us understand this case a little bit better. Hey Ryan. Hi Ashley. Thanks for having me on this. This is certainly an adventure of a case. I mean for anybody that's that's been a lawyer and it's practice and criminal practice and family law. I mean this touches every every part of our legal system. And it is a no PTSD moments I think for a lot of lawyers that are that are listening to this podcast. Seeing how far things can can unravel and get out of hand. It's it's been an amazing amazing story. So there's a lot of parts. It's a there's a lot of details just to break down for simplicity's sake. Can you tell your audience how there's been two trials now with Clayton in this woman? One is been civil and that was closed in 2024 and one is she just currently pled guilty during and that was a criminal case.

5:21So there's actually been more than than that. So there's the initial civil paternity case, which was how this whole thing started. Where Laura filed for paternity that case ended in a verdict for for Clayton and nearly $150,000 in attorneys fees for him, which is pretty remarkable. There's also restraining order cases. So there were dueling restraining orders involving both Laura and Clayton initially granted for both of them. And then after the paternity, the civil case and the paternity, it was referred actually by the judge in that civil case to Miracol. County prosecutors for criminal evaluation that led to the criminal charges and the plea agreement that just came out last week. So there's it's when I say it's kind of touched everything. It's touched family law. It's touched restraining orders. It's touched criminal. Really everything you can get to in and it dispute like this. So it's been pretty amazing. The way that I'm trying to simplify it in my head is that the 2024, the one that like the big one is that he sued her in civil court so that he could clear his name of anything that she was accusing him of, right?

6:36Right. You wanted to continue the actually filed motions to continue the paternity case even after there was after she had said there was a non viable. There was no longer a baby. It was not viable. And so there shouldn't be a paternity case even after she's the one who filed it and he had filed motions to continue that because he want to prove you want there to be an actual court decision that said you were never pregnant. And if you were, it was not mine because the saga has, you know, he's never gotten a straight answer or a court decision that's that's confirmed that despite, you know, all this time trying to get some real answers. So he's he pushed really hard for for all of that even after the case was technically, you know, mook because there wasn't a baby anymore. She accused him of getting her pregnant even though they never had penetrative as I look around for making my son son in the room sex. They were she said that you were a little bit woozy that day you took a gummy you don't know what actually happened and then said that got he got her pregnant with twins on one night and then because of that because she said that she was pregnant with twins.

7:57She said something along the lines of you can't have an in utero paternity test even though that's initially what he want he wanted her to have. Yeah, it was pretty just to try to simplify this as much as possible because we could spend five days talking about, you know, the details of this case. It's it's pretty remarkable how he got from, you know, this this sort of one night hook up, you know, there's just oral sex, there's no penetrative sex to, you know, her sending messages. I want to date you he breaks it off once it becomes clear he doesn't want to date her anymore. She then leverages this idea of a pregnancy, right, sends a pregnant positive pregnancy test. And it goes to this extreme extreme lengths I don't doctrine images and it gets really what kind of those details a little bit later, but really gets into some incredible. The lengths that she goes to try to prove that she's pregnant and essentially just trying to say please stay with me or give me a chance.

8:58Yeah, and I'll and I'll terminate the baby or if you don't then I won't. It goes this so far and this is this is where I knew things have gotten off the rails she had sent a dating contract a dating relationship contract to a new. Literally it said if you. Give date me for one week and good faith and give us a real chance going forward then I'll agree to terminate the baby. It is a I've never seen anything like it. It's clearly not something that's drafted by a lawyer no lawyer, whatever in that right mind puts something like that together. But I mean just just think about how you do there's red flags and there's like the ship is sales. I mean that is that was once once that was once I saw that I knew that we were in for the long haul. Oh my goodness gracious so just to go back to my initial thought at the beginning the 2026 one that she just pleaded guilty towards that is her basically pleading guilty to the fact that she fabricated a whole bunch of the things that she presented in court.

10:05Yes so the criminal laws were I that's that's what I've been practicing for most of my career. This is a it was a 14 count felony indictment that was filed involving two separate victims right so this was a pattern of behavior that had happened before. To again, a man named Greg Colesby and then it now it's happened to Clayton afterwards so they combined both of those two cases into one consolidated indictment so 14 different felonies she ends up pleading to four counts and she's looking at a sentencing coming up next month and it is she can face up to 12 and a half years in prison. In both situations she said that she was pregnant with twins and then got so angry because the guys thought that this night together was a casual hook up and she actually wanted to date them is there a reason that she would go with. I'm pregnant with twins yeah I think there's a couple of reasons she's not unsophisticated and how she handles that she's clearly understands which levers to pull which lawsuits to file I had a you know how to threaten with.

11:15The you know the most impact and so having twins. Couple things one it's you know there's a shock and off factor of of you know it's not just one person you're responsible for it's two you should really come around to my side of things right give me a chance try this out because this is you know this is even more serious than then you might think because there's two babies but also there's a real legitimate point that a lot of. A lot of testing for paternity a lot of a lot of programs won't test for twins because there's a chance a very small chance but there's two different fathers for the twins they want to make sure that it's reliable and so it's it's this sort of excuse that she can have built in not to do a paternity test or at least I put it off you know for as long as possible. This is actually this is. The turnity is one thing where there's a there's a ticking clock on it I mean at some point there has to be either a baby or a test right so it's it's not the most provable thing that there is but she drags it on she's able to drag it on for months and months and months and months.

12:20What's the point like do you know her goal here was adjust to freak them out or was there any financial gain that she could have like I just don't understand the overall motive like I understand she was pissed and then she wanted to like jerk around with them. But she knows she's going to get caught in the lie eventually doesn't she understand that there's like a there's there could be something very bad that she faces legally after at all. Maybe but there hadn't been any consequences before right and she's been she's been able to bully and pressure and lie and kind of manipulate her way through the court system before this the case with with Greg less be beforehand there were no criminal charges she was filed with at that time in fact she received a restraining order against him. That that had been renewed multiple times after that so she was she's very credible in her lies she doesn't you know she wasn't caught previously so now there were no consequences for her so I think that certainly where she thought that she could sort of rinse and repeat this behavior with more people the problem she ran into in this case is she picked way too high profile of an individual and the internet as they say always wins and so they you know the citizen sleuths the

13:38the bachelor nation truly remember in this case you know Clayton didn't have the resources to hire an attorney so when this first started he had just got his his real sense he didn't people think there's a lot of money they're coming from the bachelor but he didn't have enough money to hire a lawyer and it really snowballed against him in court until he had a lawyer and if he didn't finally get representation if he didn't have all this sort of obviously public support but you know internet free internet lawyers that were out there doing the investigation and you know may have turned out differently so it really did take it took all of this online pressure and ultimately resources from a go fund me account to help pay for a lawyer to put this all together and give us this remarkable terrifying story. Well now he's got dancing on cameo making him over a hundred thousand a year he says and then now he's got this podcast which is top 10 and now he'll probably have enough looks document.

14:38Think about how what is I haven't followed the bachelor all too much but I certainly know his story and I certainly know his story and what his reputation was from that season that he was the bachelor and was not great. And you want to talk about how you can do it 180 now he certainly had to go through the ringer but it is a if you want somebody to be we become sympathetic you know make them the victim of this kind of madness it's such a it's such a personal sensitive and really dirty scheme to you know pull somebody in to try to pull some interrelationship to fake you know to fake sonograms and and pregnancy tests it's such a personal thing. That it triggers anybody who's a parent or it's thought about being a parent the idea of using that again somebody no matter who they are is you know I understand it it's it's triggering one of the text messages or comments from from this girl Laura was something like you know I'll I'll just trying to prove that that she's actually pregnant that it's his and she says you know if it turns out that I'm not pregnant I'll pay you a hundred thousand dollars or something like that trying to tell him that I'm I'm really happy with that.

15:51I'm really serious at the end of the day she ends up paying him like a hundred and fifty thousand dollars so she was the only thing she said that was true was that she's going to pay him all that money just not the way she thought she was. You know I'm always looking for simple ways to make better choices especially when it comes to food lately I've been using wise code the ultra process food detector it's become one of my favorite apps all you have to do is scan a product instantly tells you if it's ultra processed if I want to dig a little deeper I can also see the nutrition quality it over all. Health quality before I buy it it makes grocery shopping so much easier I've got little kids their picky eaters but it really allows me to find brands that are going to taste good for them but also make their bodies happy you can download wise code on the app store and give it a try today. Do you have blackheads and clogged pores sometimes your skin just feels totally stuffed up.

16:56Luckily there's a new cleanser that can help with that meet poor cleanser from hero I am acne prone anyone who's following me knows that I'm acne prone my skin changes sometimes when I was pregnant holy damn it was real bad holy darn it was really bad when I was pregnant and I went through this huge hormonal breakout that in my early twenties. And now I am in a good spot with my skin but I will always treat it as it's acne prone skin very sensitive it's just it's a little bit confused I don't know if I'll ever forget my skin but we're on a good path right now I love this poor I love this poor cleanser from hero it is going to exfoliate which is going to be really helpful if you have. Like blackheads obviously or if you have like little bumps and texture a lot of times that is because you're not exfoliating properly so if you're feeling like it's time to break up with blackheads. Shop poor cleanser at hero clasmonics.com or your favorite retailer today you know what's becoming a literal nightmare lately international travel like why sit on a plane for 14 hours to get to like coma when you could be having the time of your life at season republic in the beautiful like Tahoe.

18:09All the splendor of Lake coma but without the long flights passport hassles or jet lag. Seasers Republic has it all with incredible new amenities like the high dive pool and lounge plus their must see live music lounge testies cocktails and chords you can book your stay using promo code ash 15 and receive 15% off sweets not included only at seasons Republic Lake Tahoe. Pull up a chair to at the table the food allergy podcast each episode they explore how food allergies shaped away we travel date celebrate and connect because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat it's about still having your seat at the table brought to you by Genentech and Novartis listen to at the table the food allergy podcast on America's number one podcast network I heart follow at the table and start listening. On the free I heard radio app today. Did you know that over 70% of new parents are combo feeding they're using both breast milk and formula to feed their baby whether you're exclusively formula feeding combo feeding or just want to back up in the pantry.

19:22Bobby is the formula that I trust to deliver safe complete nutrition to my baby's bottle both of my children use Bobby we love it so much the best experience with this brand they're incredible if you want to feed with confidence to head to high bobby dot com that is high hi B O BB I E dot com to find your babies new favorite formula. I have a stupid question but when somebody sue somebody for money that say they don't have in the bank where does the money come from. Yeah if you're what we call judgment proof right in the legal world it doesn't really come from anywhere right there's not money to get so you'll have a default judgment or a civil judgment sorry in a civil case and that's something that can be you can get future wage garnishment or she has property you can get a levy on it. If there's all kinds of ways to try to collect but if the money's not there it's not there right you can just sort of collect on it over time with whatever resources are there.

20:29If she comes into money later you know she inherits money from her parents or something like that you can execute that judgment a little bit later in the criminal case there's restitution so they'll be criminal restitution and she'll be through probation or parole she'll have to you know well find out what she can pay per month and then she'll be in the legal world. So there's no way to be a full pay off the judgment entirely but it's always there and if she doesn't make any effort to pay she can go back into custody. So there's two different ways to collect on it. Okay what is she sentenced to right now after taking this play. So her sentence is coming up so we don't have a an actual sentence yet the I think your sentencing date is October 23rd and she's pled to four felonies three of them are already there's an agreement where she's going to get probation on three of them so there's really only one count of the sentencing that the judge is going to be considering a custody sentence and that has a that's the fraudulent.

21:42That's the fraudulent schemes and artifices it's the it's count one it's the first one against Clayton and it's generally for the whole chabay right this is an entire fraudulent scheme let's consider everything that she's done over all of this time which gives the judge a lot of discretion and there is no agreement between the parties on what the sentence is going to be meaning that her attorneys can come in ask for probation his attorneys can ask for 12 and half years up to 12 and half years which is the maximum if there's a bunch of aggravating factors. And so when we get to the sentencing the probation department will have a recommendation the defense will have a recommendation that D is office will have a recommendation and the judges can have to make a decision I mean the presumptive on that charges five years in the state prison that's the presumptive. If there's a judge think there's enough mitigation you can go down to three years if there's a lot of aggravating factors and go up to 12 and a half and the judge can kind of go anywhere in between. Hmm very interesting to see what happens because this is such a yeah she's judges don't look favorably upon people who abuse the court system right and there's already been judges that have found that she lied during her her testimony on her oath that she's fraudulently you know doctor documents they even tried to get one of the judges remove from the case because they said there was prejudice when you start going after the judiciary and the credibility of the court system judges.

23:04Really they really take offense to that so I can't imagine this will be a overly sympathetic courtroom. She also pleaded guilty to taking the identity of another what is that from. Well that's from the the doctored ultrasound or sonogram doctor I figure that's an I figured. Yeah it's pretty personal thing because it's somebody else's sonogram she stole yeah it wasn't an AI creation it was somebody else so there's there's a different couple different types of son grams and documents that she doctored and used but one of them was a you know one was taken from a YouTube video six or seven years ago something like that and she just changed. You know she dodged she's put her name instead the other person's name and you know she just took it as a wrong right and that's proof that it's hers and most of what she's done is you know just internet. Internet diving right and just trying to find ways to pretend to prove that that this is there but it's just and there's she has been chips all in from the beginning and it really it took a criminal conviction and a restraining order to get her to stop.

24:14You know it's it's pretty wild. Do you know it's another penalty or like another thing that she's going to have on her. Honestly I don't know if she's ever going to find a husband or a family after all of this and it seems like so that's something she's desperate for and I don't think that he's going to be a little give for the time of day our producer is texting me you be surprised. Look I have I have clients that are you know in custody you're in prison or whatever and some of them get letters from from fans and from people that have followed their stories and they offer romance in whatever ways that you that you might think and so you know she may she even in custody who knows people there are all kinds of people out there. Clayton did he did he took a step where he made sure throughout her entire craziness to document everything every text every email. I get I don't know there was any voice calls.

25:17When would you suggest that somebody start documenting if they're ever in a situation like this right now. Yeah like at the very very beginning like the second the guy says she goes I like you to sign this paper that tells you that I just want one week of a chance. One week one week while relationship but it has to be a good thing right. You have to be a good faith. Good faith. That sounds like a reality show and in of itself right so unbelievable or you have to keep the baby it's it's pretty remarkable but no keep keep the receipts that's the first thing that any lawyer would ask but would tell you right keep the receipts don't delete messages first time there's a red flag or anything like that. You start recording find out when they're calling how often they're calling screenshot. Clayton did the right thing and it's made all the difference in this case because when you read the emails read the text messages the story comes into a full picture did the other guy.

26:19A lot less and he and he a lot less in his case it got really aggressive and really serious and there were. Ray ballagations and domestic violence allegations that it really went pretty far and but it wasn't until people kind of able to see this pattern of behavior that you can make a determination I mean when you're in when you're in court and a woman is is in there saying I've been choked or I am pregnant. Here's my here's the son of ram of my baby and I'm a victim here everybody I think everybody's reasonable belief is to is to trust that person because who would come in and lie about that and so it's and she was in court under of testifying to these things and I don't blame any judge who who hears that who listens to her statement and and sides with her it's you don't have all the other information you're just going off of that of course I think you you defer to protecting someone that position. When did the other guy come out of the woodwork when he saw a public figure being faced with the same situation the lawyer for for Greg when the story first broke about Clayton's one of the.

27:33The employees in his firm showed him the story and said look at this can you believe this remind you of of our other case he said doesn't just remind me that's the same person and he put those together right away when it came in he reached out to Greg and they said we know what the what the M.O. is here and what Clayton's going to be in for I mean they knew it was a battle and this is it was pretty incredible and Clayton. And Clayton couldn't afford to bring him in right away right it would have been pretty incredible to just got him in to help with the case right from the beginning but it wasn't until they had the go fund me that you can actually hire him. Wow and then I also think that there was some communication between Greg's girlfriend and Clayton via DM yeah that's that's the first person that reached out to Clayton was so Greg's girlfriend sent to a message he thought okay now this is. In some of his interviews Clayton said you know I like ball went off right this was a moment that he thought okay now now I'm pretty convinced that this is a pattern of behavior and not just you know I'm not alone in this in this battle so he that that she reached out to him first then there was some communication he ended up talking to Greg and they realized how similar these situations were.

28:51My friend said this one's and I have adopted it as my own she goes I'm not a crunchy mom but I'm a crispy mom and I'm like that is me too like of course we're going to have our junk food days but primarily when we're eating inside the house I am very particular about what I buy and make for my kids because sometimes you know. Like for example. They're going to you chicken nuggets right they're going to eat macaroni and cheese but I'm trying to find the best possible versions of those and in order to do that I use this really great app when I'm grocery shopping it's called wise code and it's basically. An ultra process food detector all you do is scan a product to instantly see if it's ultra processed they go beyond the label you're able to view nutrition quality and health quality it makes grocery shopping easy it helps you make more informed decisions for your family it's available on the app store.

29:59I love love love it it is exactly what a crispy mom needs you can download wise code the ultra process food detector. On the app store today deal with blackheads and clogged for us sometimes your skin just feels totally stuffed up. Luckily there's a new cleanser that can help with that meet poor cleanser from hero I am acne prone anyone who's follow me knows that I'm acne prone my skin changes sometimes when I was pregnant holy damn is a real bad. Holy darn it was really bad when I was pregnant and I went through this huge hormonal breakout that in my early 20s. And now I am in a good spot with my skin but I will always treat it as it's acne prone skin very sensitive it's just it's a little bit confused I don't know if I'll ever figure out my skin but we're on a good path right now. I love this poor I love this poor cleanser from hero it is going to exfoliate which is going to be really helpful if you have.

31:01Like blackheads obviously or if you have like little bumps and texture a lot of times that is because you're not exfoliating properly so if you're feeling like it's time to break up with blackheads. Shop poor cleanser at hero cosmetics dot com or your favorite retailer today you know what's becoming a literal nightmare lately international travel like why sit on a plane for 14 hours to get to like coma when you could be having the time of your life at season republic in the beautiful like Tahoe. All the splendor of like coma but without the long flights passport hassles or jet lag. Cesar's Republic has it all with incredible new amenities like the high dive pool and lounge plus their must see live music lounge testies cocktails and chords you can book your stay using promo code ash 15 and receive 15% off sweets not included only at Cesar's Republic Lake Tahoe. That invite to brunch your hesitating because brunch isn't just brunch for you when you've got food allergies it's research preparation and food avoidance but over time you've learned to plan prepare and stay safe and you still show up anyway welcome to at the table the food allergy podcast brought to you by genentech and navartis.

32:21Each episode pulls up a chair to a different table from date nights to tables abroad and explores what it really means to navigate each moment while still eating safely join Tyler Florence a chef who was diagnosed with 42 food allergies as a child and Jenna usquits a mom navigating food allergies every day together they discuss real stories from people living with food allergies. The challenges but also the wins because living with food allergies isn't just about what you can't eat it's about still having your seat at the table. Listen to at the table the food allergy podcast on america's number one podcast network i heart follow at the table start listening on the free i heart radio app today. Did you know that over 70% of new parents are combo feeding they're using both breast milk and formula to feed their baby whether you're exclusively formula feeding combo feeding or just want to back up in the pantry.

33:25Bobby is the formula that I trust to deliver safe complete nutrition to my baby's bottle both of my children use Bobby we love it so much had the best experience with this brand. They're incredible if you want to feed with confidence to head to high Bobby dot com that is high hi B O BB I E dot com to find your baby's new favorite formula. Because Laura took a plea deal do you think that you'll have a lighter side sentence is that an automatic thing usually. She'll have a lighter sentence than if she is convicted of 14 felonies after a trial and a three. I know how however our rent is her behavior is and good luck finding an impartial jury in a case like that it's pretty it's pretty incredible and look what she what she did was she pled to the four felonies. With probation on the table right and that's the that's the most important thing for her lawyer for her she has a chance to argue for probation meaning no.

34:30No prison time you know judge can give her probation and up to a 365 days in county jail but that that's if the judge decides to give her probation if she's convicted of of all these other felonies there's no way she's avoiding prison time so at least now she has a fighting shot she can come in she can argue for probation you know she has no prior criminal history. And you know maybe there's not I'm going to take a wild guess here maybe there's some mental health issues that she's going through wild guess without without knowing her personal situation I can I feel pretty comfortable with that so she's yeah come in they'll argue you know for all of those reasons she's it's better to have her get treatment or you know what whatever might be and so now she has a shot but it's hard to imagine her avoiding some prison time here. Her parents aren't say involved but she did live with them during this time does that mean anything for them. The family's been remarkably silent during this whole process her dad's a public figure is a radio hall of fame broadcaster.

35:37Oh okay yeah because when I typed in her name earlier just to see a picture it was like the daughter of so and so. Right it's a pretty a pretty well means radio hall of fame he's a he's a very well known person in the Bay Area and her mom is a podcaster too and they have just been very very quiet during this entire process and you know whether you know that comes into you know can they be financially responsible for some of the things that she's doing that's a little bit of a leap for these kinds of cases but doesn't mean that they're not concerned about that I mean I certainly would be. Do you see I see Clayton has already won his civil case against her back 2024. It has Greg done anything is Greg try to seek justice in any way or is there any other way that Clayton can. Well Greg is the victim in the criminal case right so yeah he is he is getting justice in terms of the criminal case they'll be a restitution order for him as well for all the expenses that he's had to pay in defending himself.

36:42So he is getting justice that way but he's really tried I think not to be involved in this litigation with her you know not even you know as far as I know right now hasn't contested even the restraining order that was filed against them because if to do that you would have to go bring her back into court and be in court with her again and he's I think he's tried to keep his just to try to stay away from her as much as possible but the digital to Tertis office has handled that for him thankfully. Anything else from a lawyer's point of view that you think is super interesting about the case and worth putting out there right now besides everything about this I mean the couple of things that I found interesting the sheer volume of of communications right hundreds and hundreds of tacked every day one to 10 20 you know over time you know probably thousands of messages that were sent. Her calling from 12 different phone numbers after he blocks her like these are all things that we look for in restraining order they're kind of black and white I mean if you start calling somebody from 12 different numbers because you can block the 11 times right that's that's telling you pretty quickly that the person doesn't want to talk to you so these are you know that's enough in most restraining order cases to get a granted and so the sheer volume in of itself is is pretty shocking and other thing is you know she went after right when this started he was her real he was a realtor that's how he was.

38:07How this kind of started she reached out to him she said she was looking for some commercial property investment property and it was his first ever client right he just got his real estate license which imagine your first day on the job right you're very first client. I can't turn into this like this it's very first client he's thinking he's going to get his very first sale it gets crazy just from the get go and then she goes after his real estate license and so she actually for anybody that's a professional license any doctor lawyer real estate. Whatever you might be nurse teacher somebody goes after your credential it's about a scary and terrifying as a guest right you put so much time and energy money resources into getting that license and she went after his real estate license right from the beginning and not really set the tone for what she's capable of right she's willing to go after your career right up the bat you know she's willing to go anywhere. So I found that to be you know terrifying she obviously set this networking date up because he was the bachelor to and there has been findings now that she had been a viewer.

39:14Yeah she's she and his like profile photo on LinkedIn or might be was his bachelor photo right so it's not as if there's a big secret to who he was I mean his bachelor photo was his LinkedIn profile so. You know she was she sought him out she reached out to him she said she let's can you help me with this I know you're in this profession so it's very it's not that they met on the street you know at her bar or something like that I mean he she sought him out so you know this is this is definitely a plan they had. There's also some some interesting things that have that have happened throughout I just want to talk briefly about the difference we having an attorney versus not having the turning. He had two back to back hearings he had and they were in the restraining order he tried to go in on when on his own restraining order without attorney the judge gave him a week to get counsel the next day he was in court on her restraining order against him he goes unrepresented pro say and just doesn't understand what the judge is asking for right she had an attorney he didn't what the what the judge is asking for what kinds of questions to ask.

40:24And he ends up losing that it with all this. Avalanche of evidence and all of these messages and all these emails and this clear behavior he loses that hearing. Just it's a difference we have a lawyer not having a lawyer and it's the next next time he went into court for his restraining order he had done the crowd funding he has his own lawyer not only does he win the restraining order but the lawyer he had hired. She comes in and grills Laura on cross examination and part of that testimony is what's used to convict your later on so it's between him losing and and her being convicted of a crime later on was the difference between having a lawyer not having a lawyer and it's just. Now even when the facts are stacked in your favor it's just it's it was so clear to watch it it's just unfortunate right because not everybody can afford to have counsel. And restraining order hearings are not entitled to a public defender and it's yet to pay for your own attorneys and think how many people are out there. Getting restraining orders filed against them they can't hire higher lawyer they walk in they've never been in a courtroom before they don't know what to say or do and they're going up against a buzz saw and you know even the wackiest most outrageous kinds of cases can lead to you know restraining orders loss of your rights whatever it might be so it was a it was tough to see but I'm glad that.

41:37That you know the truth came out. Ryan you just made me feel so much better about paying my lawyer bill yesterday because it was it was hefty and that's just a contract that's just an entertainment contract lawyer. Thank you thank you for making me feel better. All right well thank you so much for joining us this was fascinating and if you guys are obsessed with this make sure to go listen to Clayton's podcast love trapped. Go listen to love trapped it's wherever you find podcasts are very happy for him for getting vindication on all this justice and then also hit podcast so and Ryan thank you so much for your expertise it really did clarify some things. You're welcome actually anytime. Yeah it's yeah. Until next time guys I've been Ashley. To you. Follow the Ben and Ashley I almost famous podcast on I have radio or subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. You know I'm always looking for simple ways to make better choices especially when it comes to food lately I've been using wise code the ultra processed food detector.

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