What Lindsay Clancy Was Prescribed in the Weeks Before

0:00This is Hidden Tillers Live with Tony Brusky and Robin Dree. At the center of this tragedy is a mother who was desperately crying for help while being prescribed an ever-shifting chaotic cocktail of medications. This trial pulled back the curtain on postpartum healthcare, the system that seems to be blind in many ways to acute psychosis and the catastrophes that can take place when things are not monitored appropriately. Joining me to discuss Bob Mottah, host of Defense Diaries at Robert Dreeck, retired FBI Special Agency for the Counterintelligence Behavioral Analysis Program. What is next? That is the big question everybody is asking. As of this morning, we're recording this on Tuesday morning after the long holiday weekend. I know last, we heard on Friday, Red was going to be filing some things this week.

1:00Bob, where, where do we sit on the train track of Lindsey Clancy going forward? Right. It's so hard to know. It's so hard to know, you know, I mean, it really depends on what the DA likes to do here. Right. Like, let's, because when they both walk out of the courtroom that day, emotions are high and I'm talking about both the DA and in writing 10 and then when they gave their, they're, you know, heated comments. Both of them were kind of on fire. You know, Red was upset and so was the DA. You know, I mean, they were both adamant about what they were saying. When cooler heads start to prevail and you've got some time for this to kind of settle in, you know, because walking out of that courtroom that day. Yeah. You know, having done this for many years, there's a lot going on with you. No one made a definitive statement of, you know, we're going to be reprying this.

2:05The DA didn't, you know, Reddington, you know, alluded, we're ready. You know, we're ready to go and get into some of our, Good morning, America this morning too. He said that, you know, they're open to anything that they come back with. So, I mean, he seems, he's, you know, he's up and ready to go. There's a lot of potential paths here forward. Massachusetts, the rule basically from what we understand first degree, it has to be a jury trial. So the idea of a bench trial coming in from what we understand would have to be a lesser charge second degree, man slaughter, things of that nature on the table for a bench trial to take place without a jury. Is that really where we sit? Either they lesser the charges and then we go to a bench trial possibly. Or what other options, what are the possible scenarios here in this hellish choose your own adventure book? Well, I mean, essentially they could go retry in the same indictments. Yeah. All right. Assuming that double jeopardy is not a barrier.

3:07And that's going to be something that potentially depending on what happens with the DA's office, what crews decides to do. I think if they come out relatively quickly and say that we're retrying or you're going to see this thing go up, up, you know, up the chain in terms of getting up to probably the SJC at some point, as we saw in the Karen read case, where, you know, they're basically saying, because Reddington asked the judge towards the end to basically pull the jury. Yeah, I did not happen. Why? Why did that? I mean, this just seems like cross your tea dot your eye. This happened in Karen read too. I mean, why not just do it? What do you got to lose? Right. And what didn't happen is the lawyers did not ask the judge to do it and read. Here he did. Yeah. And that was a sticking point and read when they appealed it up to the,

4:08I think it went up to the SJC. They appealed it to the SJC because there is that language that says the judge at the judge's discretion can act the jurors if they were hung on everything or say, all right, well, we were, we were, we were good on first degree. We decided that we weren't going to go first degree, but we were, and we were, we were good on, you know, the manslaughter where we were kind of hung on was, was the, you know, was going to be the, the sacked in degree or the manslaughter, whatever the case may be. Yeah. Just, you know, but would eliminate those things if they could have said all of us agreed back there, all 12 of us agreed that we weren't going to convict on first degree. So that would then bar that double jeopardy would attach to that automatically. And they wouldn't be able to try because there was, it was, it was uttered in open court. That's the thing that needs to happen. It doesn't matter what they say back in the jury room.

5:11The thing that has to be said is it has to be said in the courtroom. It's got to be on the record. Yes, we were all in agreement that, that first degree was going to be not guilty on that. Though we were going to go, they were going to quit on the, on the first degree. And so that, and that changes everything because at that point, that brings all right, well, then, then crews can say, all right, well, then we're going to go on second degree and, and that's it. But second degree, you can do a bench and writing ten is set it. And I, you know, he would think about it. If it's going to be Sullivan again, but Sullivan, I think he, I think he's like on the verge of forced retirement. Like I think that he's, he's run his course on the bench. So depending on how long this thing takes to get the trial, I know with the murmurs about, you know, the fall, you know, I mean, like, Reddington was like, I want to, I want a jury in panel next Monday. I mean, like in the fall, we're kind of starting fall like right now, we're starting fall.

6:15Right. So what, I mean, this, I mean, that was shocked by that idea. Like I don't, that would be amazing. If we could get it up, does it ever happen that quick? Bobby, you know, really? So you've seen a hungry happen and then boom, they're up and running because everybody's already prepared basically. They got their stuff ready to go. So let's just come back to the room and play. Yeah. Well, I mean, if you're the, the commonwealth, you're retrying the case differently, right? Yeah. Like you're basically taking the approach that they took in the closing is opposed to what they did in the opening. Yeah. Because by the time we got to the closing, they had changes or tune. They had, they had decided, okay, we're abandoning this suicide attempt was a ruse. We're admitting that it was a serious attempt. And we're also acknowledging, acknowledging that she had a mental illness or defect. We're just saying it wasn't the type that wouldn't allow her to know right from wrong and to conform her conduct to the requirements of law. Like that's all we're saying. So they would try it differently. You know, so which is always in my estimation, an advantage to the commonwealth.

7:19That doesn't mean that the writing 10 wouldn't tweak some of his case as well. You know, but in theory, it's basically the same. They have the framework of how they should try the case. And I'm talking about the commonwealth. And, and you know, red would make his tweaks. Like you, you have to worry if you're reddington, you have to worry about Resnick, you know, he's, he's pretty old. Yeah. And he wasn't, he was not feeling well. He was going through some medical issues where he couldn't fly. Right. Yeah. That's why he, he, and you need Resnick. You need that guy. Resnick is really the key to the defense in terms of when you have the commonwealth experts all kind of bending, bending the knee to Resnick is saying, yeah, he's the authority on, you know, philosophie and on also in terms of malingering as to hallucinations. And, you know, like that's the guy. You know, when you have their experts admitting that and that we've relied on things that he's

8:23set, you know, that, that, that gives a lot of weight to Resnick and basically builds in my estimation, reasonable doubt into the case because you could be saying, well, all right, their experts are saying that this guy is the shit. Okay. And this guy is the shit in terms of that particular area. So he's reasonable like that. That is, it's a plausible thing that he's saying that she was psychotic. However, we also find what the commonwealth's witnesses were saying was reasonable and plausible as well. Well, I'm sorry, but that's reasonable doubt. Like when you have two different situations, what's are plausible, that is not beyond a reasonable doubt. Right. That's literally the definition of it. So they'd have to tinker with it. I mean, they can also decide to retry on, you know, just the second degree of manslaughter, abandoning the first degree theories that have that premeditation and the, or extreme atrocity or cruelty. You know, because I, the explanation the state gave of atrocities was

9:25not what atrocities are like under the statute. Like it was complete. Her, hers was just like, oh, this was a mother doing this. That the kids were sitting there in this nightmare watching the person who's supposed to love the most killed on that. That's an atrocity. That, that's not how the law reads in terms of, you know, falling under the, the category of extreme atrocity, which we'd need to get to, you know, that first degree. And then the other thing they could do obviously is a negotiated resolution. And this is where it gets interesting. Yeah. Yesterday I was having a pretty, pretty lengthy conversation with another person that I was doing alive with yesterday. And we were getting into this, the possibilities with a negotiated resolution because you've got to look at this like this. All right. You see the split in society. There are people that are adamant that, you know, Lindsey Clancy is a fucking monster and she needs to go down. I don't give a shit.

10:25Everybody that's supporting her is crazy. Like what is it? Like are we living in crazy world? And then you've got the people that are not mental illness deniers. Like, like myself and you. Yes. It's essentially kind of what it is. It's mentally illness denial. That's what it is. It really is. There's another way about it. Like, you know, when I read comments from people like, oh, you know, the mental health, the mental illness aspect was a, it was just a, like, a narrative that the defense was, I'm like, holy shit. I'm like, these people literally, like mental illness is not a narrative. Like, like, it would know the, but that shows what the problem is. Yeah. It does come from this country that actually think that it's, it's a narrative. It is opposed to realizing that this shit is as real as it gets. And that there's people, millions of people all over the world that are suffering on a daily basis and suffering massively from whatever mental illness

11:28that they're going through. And it's real. And you know, it's just, it's such a difficult case, you know, because it's that it's the thing that I keep saying. I don't know that they'll ever be able to in panel 12 people that are you know, on it ever. And this thing, I mean, 11 to 1 for NG. I mean, what kind of appetite does the state of man? I mean, I know this Massachusetts likes to retry their shit. Even when they're, they, they double down, they dig in like a petulant, you know, old uncle or something that's arguing their opinion despite the rest of the family saying, uh, bye bye, you can sit here by the camp fire by yourself. We're going inside. This is getting weird. Uh, that's Massachusetts. Uh, but are they going to do it again or do they have an appetite for that? Are they going to say, you know, this kind of makes us look stupid. Maybe we should do this off here in the, the quiet of a, a settled agreement in a judges chamber between the attorneys and, and send Lindsey off to be locked away in a mental institution, which he's been asking for the whole

12:30time. We'll just end up doing what she originally asked for and pretend it was our idea at the end of the day. Yeah. I mean, look, it's, I would pose this question to, to DA cruise. Yeah. I will read it. And I would say, look, you know, the, the prosecution offices around this country are always championing the fact that they're, they're there representing the people, but really they're representing the victims. And, and, and cruise was adamant about that. We're representing the victims here. We're representing the, you know, Corridor, Dossett and Caled that, that's who we're here for. And they need justice. The problem here is what does justice look like? Because for the folks that are eye for an eye, well, justice means if they have the death penalty available, which they do not en masse, that she should be fried in a situation where it's life without the possibility, then that's what she gets. And I don't care about anything else.

13:31For those folks, that's what justice looks like. For folks like myself and folks like the family of the victims, which people who actually mattered, the people that were testifying on behalf of Lindsey Clancy, I don't think that they think justice looks the same thing, the same way that cruise thinks it might look. Yeah. And, and you know, how I win that argument, look who they testified for. Yeah. That tells you where the family is on this thing, the family who knew her best, who knows her best, who lived with her, who were there for the people that are ignoring those people that are screaming out there. That's how you lose every argument that you were going to have with me, because I will always have those folks to point to say, they're the ones that this matters most to not you. You got no stake in this in terms of we have a stake in terms of a society,

14:33the people on the other side of this, our stake is, you know what? Let's change the healthcare system. Let's start acknowledging that that women's mental health and postpartum is real and let's do something about it. Let's make sure that this never happens again to another child and or mother that ends her own life because she's going through it just because we don't fucking get it because we don't get it is not the answer. If you're not willing to listen and understand what's real and move forward on that no matter how hard it is, if that means that you have to kind of swallow this incredibly bitter pill, that the fact that this woman did this to these three kids who she loved more than anything on the planet. And you have to swallow that in order to move forward to make sure it never happens again. Well, then that's what we have to do. Period. Or they'll just keep sailing their ship off the flat earth. And Bob, so here's my question about if they work a plea deal or even if they

15:36go and try it again on a lesser charge, which makes it easier for a jury to be more unanimous on this. And so say and even in this case say that she was convicted on manslaughter. And but then she I mean, is there any way because I don't think so that the judge then can impose going back to Tukesbury because that's ultimately what the family wants and what the people at San with Lindsey want and not looking for released or looking for mental health help where she's been staying for three years in Tukesbury. And so is there any way that they negotiate for the lesser charge and a plea deal, but then she goes also to Tukesbury or does she go back to general population because I think that's part of the issue that we're all having with it also is that where's a sentence going to be carried out? Well, I mean, it depends. If she's far on guilty, she goes to theoretically, she goes to prison. Now the problem is going to be if they try her again. Right. I'm not so sure that's going to happen.

16:37But then can they make the plea deal for the Tukesbury there? Okay. They can. Yeah. Absolutely. So the obviously landing spot for a negotiated plea. And this is where it got interesting in the conversation I was having yesterday. I think there exists a world in which they could say, all right, we're willing to, we're willing to concede the point. We're willing to, to agree that she pleads not guilty, lack of criminal responsibility. But we want to, we want to try to do a set time frame. Okay. Now, and we're saying we're going to say five years. All right. We're going to say that she's going to be committed in there for at least five years. If she continues not to be better, if she doesn't get better, if she's still, you know, a danger to herself or others, then she stays in. And if she never gets right, she's in there forever. I mean, which is a possibility? You know, however, in the event that that she does get made whole,

17:39it because like there's, there's two parts of it. And I know this from speaking to a woman named Lisa Tremaine and New Jersey, who has this incredible, it's the only one in the country. And I keep screaming from the rooftops about this woman and this, the center that she has. And it's specifically for postpartum issues where mothers are having it, they can come in, they can fully disclose everything that's going on without fear of repercussion and they treat them until they're better. And every single mother that comes in there walks out well and the kids are alive. It's like the place, it's a miracle. The place is a miracle. They need to have them in every, if this place existed or if Lindsay was aware of it, if she had Googled and found it and she's like, Pat, I need to go to this place in Jersey. These people are going to help me. I guarantee you the kids are still here. I guarantee it. This, and this woman has been fighting and fighting and fighting.

18:41They have helped thousands of women, thousands of women, and they allow the women to bring the babies with them. So they're not separated and they're treated. They have, they have trained doctors in there. They, they're allowed to, because the bigger problem here is the under reporting that's happening for women because they're afraid of the repercussions if I report. Yeah, because you're dealing with government agencies, government agencies, take your kids away. They'll, they'll, you'll get committed. You'll lose your licensing. Like if she's a nurse, like everything she, she had, what had to have been going through her brain as this is going on for four months is like, I'm, like, I don't know how much I can tell. And that's not just Lindsay Clancy. That's every single woman that goes through this shit. Yeah. And it's because of the stigma. It's like, you know, if you're a woman that's suffering and you're going online, please get offline because when you see the ignorance that exists,

19:42there are about people just denying that this shit is real. That keeps this exactly where it is hidden in the dark, allowing not allowing women to come forward with how they're absolutely feeling and being completely honest with it. Could you imagine a world in which Lindsay could have said, this is everything I'm going through. And in great detail, I think we're being very, very different place right now. If that had actually existed, unfortunately, that is not where we are. And there seems to be half of the population very much happy with the way our system works saying, we don't need that. What's that going to help a lot? It would help a lot. Your thoughts in the comments section on sub stack and YouTube. We'd love for you to weigh in. Want more on this case and others? Then press subscribe now and don't miss a moment of true crime coverage from Tony Bruski and the Hidden Killers podcast.