Who Else Ended Up Under Scrutiny in the Clancy Case?

0:00This is Hidden Killers Live with Tony Brusky and Robin Green. Here we are, the Lindsey Clancy verdict. We may actually get it within the hour officially. We will go to that if they get back into the courtroom to deliver that verdict. Kevin Reddington here at the very last moment decided to appear to opt for what I would call the physical challenge, if you will, like double dare. And we actually believe we have some footage of him right now on the court steps. This is Kevin Reddington. He is partaking in the physical challenge at the moment, trying to get the document up to the court house steps as quickly as he pos- he's in the hamster wheel right now. And there we go. He's got the document.

1:00Mark Summers is there, cheering him on. And there he goes. He's got it to the court house. Look at that, Kevin Reddington. Hoop of fire for the complete. There we go. There we go. He's got a fire. That's the thing. That's the thing. He's got a fire. It looks like he has succeeded in his double dare challenge there. I was surprised to he opted for the physical challenge at the end. It's kind of what it feels like though, quite honestly. It's like I'll give you an hour, run to this other building and get this fire. I mean, we're in 2026 and we operate, you know, like we were pre-fax machine in so many ways. And it seems it's almost a reflection of also how we understand mental health and how the state of Massachusetts has processed this case. I was presented this case almost as if it's in that same sort of error. Robin Drake retired FBI Special Agent. And chief of the counter intelligence behavioral analysis program with us this morning is always.

2:03Do you feel the same? I mean, it does. It almost feels like, you know, maybe some things need a little updating here on how we handle things in such archaic fashion. You know, yes and no. I don't say yes and no because yes, it needs updating Tony. But the thing that really struck me, I mean, watching him again, you know, put the emotions as I know we have a lot of divided people in the country on this one. Put the emotions of what you think about the case aside a second. When I watched him as they're about, as the judge is about to call in the jury and declare a mistrial, I'm watching it live like we all were. And he stands up on his last of Jeffert to call for a stay and watching him fight to the last breath. I had to look it up. I mean, I got it on my AI right here. What the hell he was doing. Yeah. I mean, it brought, I get, I get misty thinking about it and not because of the case, although that's important, mostly important because of the mental health challenges, women everything. But when you see a human being fighting so hard, so relentlessly with every ounce of

3:07his soul to exhaust every single last thing, I say to my kids all the time, when you throw everything on the kitchen table and you gave everything you're complete all and there's everything, every option you've ever could do is exhausted. The outcome is what it is. And just knowing that he tried this hard with everything in his soul to do all he could for Lindsey, for the client in very obviously for something he believes so deeply in, it really is awe inspiring. What his action is just awe inspiring. So it's been a snip snap back and forth up and down, especially now, we've had all the leakage about what it looks like what the verdict was. It's been, it's been, this case has been long, it's been exhausting, I think psychologically and emotionally for a lot of people, but it ain't just a point in the last couple of hours there's no doubt. It really has, yeah, I mean, it's just been a roller coaster. Did better understand what exactly is going on here. This is how I'm understanding it. The Clancy jury, the Clancy jury just told Judge Sullivan for the third time they cannot

4:14and will not reach a unanimous verdict. And they use the term with a heavy heart, I thought that was interesting. After seven days and more than 36 hours in Sullivan said he had no choice but to declare a hung jury mistrial defense attorney Kevin Reddington stopped him. Reddington has been arguing since yesterday that this is not a true deadlock. That 11 jurors are ready to acquit on lack of criminal responsibility in one hold out, acknowledging doubt about, acknowledging doubt, but refuses to apply it to the verdict, which Reddington says is a refusal to follow the judge's reasonable doubt instruction. Sullivan refused to remove that jurors. The Reddington has asked for a brief stay, meaning basically press pause for a second. The judge was about to bring the jury back in to declare the mistrial. Reddington said, wait one second for that stay to file an emergency chapter, two 11 section

5:17three petition, which of course we all know what that is. With a single justice of the Massachusetts Supreme Court, what it is, it's a rarely used mid trial appeal that lets the high court step in if they believe a defendant's constitutional rights are being violated and a later appeal would be worthless. So Sullivan gave him one hour. That's where we got to the physical challenge and he's out there on the court steps going through the hamster wheel and jumping through the hoops of fire. The mistrial is unpause. If the SJC does nothing, the trial ends with no verdict and the prosecutors decide whether to retry her then if they intervene, this jury stays a little bit longer. But the clock is ticking. It's been roughly about an hour now since, sorry, roughly about 40 minutes now, since that happened in the courtroom and the judge gave Reddington about 60 minutes to come

6:19back with whatever he's filing. So we'll see. Yeah, and it was also interesting, Tony, I'm actually looking up right now because I was watching live. I wasn't ready to take notes. But he did mention, again, he's throwing everything he can at this. I'm trying to get his exact wording here and what he might be trying to do with it also. He did bring up Lindsey Bean and a wheelchair and American Disabilities Act. I wonder if that's actually going to be part of his appeal to a Supreme Court justice in the state saying that this one holdout, maybe he might try to claim, again, pure conjecture. I'm throwing this on the screen because I'm not quite sure what he's going for about maybe that way he was prejudiced because of her disability. I mean, that's where I kind of took it as a possibility of him being able to remove that juror from that possibility as well. I don't know. So who knows? But it was definitely a last minute, last minute stay to see what else he can do.

7:22And just talk about the thing that strikes behaviors like me and how I frame this entire thing from the get-go is all the relationship involved. And we saw the relationships of Lindsey's parents, co-workers, family, even ex-husband. All these people vouching for her as a mother, as a wife, and all these things along the way. And then we see Reddington's behavior in the courtroom as well. His complete vestiture in her holding her hand, comforting her as she's completely losing it. And then when the judge says, all right, I'll do this, but you got to do it fast. And he's trying not to look at his watch and insinuate that we got a long weekend because of Labor Day weekend. But he was and Reddington, the fact that Reddington says I can get this done in an hour, demonstrates this adept of relationships he has, be able to pick up a phone to a Supreme Court justice and get things done. So again, the things that solve the greatest challenges that we face in life is trust and healthy relationships and he's got them. Yeah, I mean, he does.

8:24I mean, it's really going... This is one of those cases where we've been talking with a lot of very good attorneys who know their stuff. And even then, I mean, it's amazing what levers can exist in the law. Because it's like, well, what are the possibilities here? And everybody says, well, it's going to be this, we're going to be that. And also, Reddington's like, wait a second, I got this little card I can pull out. I didn't think you had that. Like, nobody know you can even... This man knows the law well. This man is who you want in your corner if your face was something like Lindsey Clancy is facing. Let's talk about the actual issues. I'm sorry, I hate to interrupt you. I misspoke a little bit because when I looked it up, here's what it looks like he's going for on mentioning her disability. Because he brought up the Karen Reed case and being able to... And Karen Reed being able to sit retrial, he's claiming that because of Lindsey's disability, her ability to sit retrial is greatly reduced and it's... And so that's one of the things he's throwing in there as well.

9:26That's why. Okay, so... Extra weight for consideration with the judge. I want to talk about really kind of some of the bricks of this case, the foundation of it of how we got here. Now, we always hear about the lone holdout. It's in movies sometimes, the 12 angry men, sure, the one that's going to hold out to the end for justice. But let's be right. When someone digs their heels in any case, this heavy, I mean, how often is a genuine principle? I mean, to that person, they believe it is to everybody else. It's grandstanding. I guess, you know, it's only grandstanding when you don't agree with it. But how often is a genuine versus a ego trip from someone who wanted the main character to be them in a national trial? I mean, I really wonder about that when you have a situation like this and one person is still digging in.

10:26What, you know, how do you get to the bottom of it? It is one of the flaws of our system, but it is a system that we use to try and deliver justice here in our country. But it certainly is not without its flaws or the ability for people to hijack it if they so choose. So time is a teller of that one. Being that, you know, was this person holding out for principle? Is it because, you know, beyond reasonable doubt is very personally subjective? And you can give the greatest jury instructions in the world. But your interpretation from your context is very subjective. And so they're holding out, they're holding to their principles of what they think is reasonable doubt as defined by the judge. And that's how our system works. And I will, I have respect for the person that is doing this if it's done for that reason. And what I mean by time will tell if now after the trial, also in that one lone juror publishes a book, the one lone juror, well, you knew it was for celebrity notoriety.

11:27So really, that's why I say time will tell in this one because this is how our system works. And that's why it's got to be unanimous, got to be. But again, when you're dealing with 12 from your reference, 12 angry people and on such a divisive case when it comes to the complication, again, there's very few states that have the law written this way that made it this complicated to try to understand it with the burden being on the prosecution. Any other state, well, I think there's four. It definitely wouldn't have gone to trial. And then the majority of the other ones, the burden is on the defense to prove it. And this one, the burden is on the prosecution. Again, I'm not the loyal and not the legal type. But again, this case would not be getting the attention it otherwise would have somewhere else. But again, it's how the system works. Yeah, I mean, it really is. And that's the thing we have to remember here is it is the prosecution that is supposed to be proving this beyond a reasonable doubt. It's their burden to prove that Lindsey Clancy was in her right mind, not the opposite way

12:28around, which is a bit of a different goal post to be going through here. And if you're sitting in that room and you've been staring at autopsy photos of three little kids for weeks, you're emotionally drained. You're trapped with people who see the world maybe completely differently. At least some of them, it seems there's some, there's some conflict going on here. I mean, how fast does a jury room stop debating the evidence and just devolve into, to screaming matches, tears and hostility when, when emotions are running this, this high. And do you ever get to a resolution without without someone, I mean, essentially violating the, the rules because jury rules are, are confusing the judgement for roughly an hour of the other day with some of those rules. And I mean, if you're just listening to them as a lay person, which most of us are, they do seem confusing. I would, I would venture to argue that they are flat out conflicting in some ways where

13:32it talks about your convictions, but follow the letter of the law. Well, a conviction is not exactly a letter of the law. It's an opinion. It's an conviction, but you're supposed to follow that super strong while at the same time take the law into account. Do we need to do better? Again, I mean, this is, I feel like every time we, we get to some of these, these steps in our law and our cases that we follow, we, we operate in, in such almost bizarre old school pageantry. The only thing we're missing are the wigs that they still wear in Canada and other countries. You know, it's like, at what point do we go, okay, let's go. Let's update, we can do better. We're, we're not in 1622 now. It just feels like we still operate under very, a very different set of, of reasoning when it comes to this stuff. It's, it's such an interesting word saying we could do better because better becomes subjective as well. It's out of all, Tony, out of all cases we've covered in the last four years together. I think this has been done the best.

14:34It really do. Yeah. It's that, you know, we're not seeing misdeeds by anyone on any side really. We're seeing that, we're seeing the criminal justice play out. We're seeing a defense attorney working his ass off to, to serve his client and not just serve his client, but uphold the constitution with every nook and cranny he knows from his 50 years of experience of doing this, being very highly decorated and not just that, but he believes in his client's innocence. Well, innocence, not being, not being criminally responsible is better way to put it because he knows that she killed her kids. So this, now can the criminal justice always be improved? Absolutely. That's why, that's why we're human beings because the greatest thing that makes a society function is self correcting documents and self correcting procedures because that shows that we're learning and evolving. It's when things lock down like people that form cults based off of doctrine that they say is not correct, but over time and thousands of years, those ones get scary because we

15:35do learn, we do evolve and do get better on things. It'll be really interesting legally. That's why next week it'll be interesting to get Bob's and Eric's opinion on where they saw maybe legal things that could be approved upon. But that being said, the system worked. I mean, and it's work in this case. I know I personally have the outcome I was hoping for and still hope for and you don't want it to have to go to retrial for all the reason it looks like Reddington is battling for. But at the same time, it gives you faith that at least it's a system that is functioning. The hardest part of this entire system is jury selection. It takes a lot of questioning by both prosecution and defense to go through the jury questionnaire to go through all the possible candidates. They have, I can't remember the exact number they have that they can actually dismiss outright if they can't conform to what the law is or the judge can do. If they said they can't conform to the law and the jury instructions. According to the foreman, the foreman's the one, as I know, that's one of the questions

16:37that I'm chatting with, who said that they couldn't conform to the jury instructions or to the judges' instructions. I believe it was a foreman that said that when they put the note up to the judge. That's the thing for dismissal. But before the fact, not during the fact. The judges following the law. He's actually, as much as Reddy Tins trying to browbeat him on certain things, the judges actually following the law. Everything is such a gray area. I mean, I think that's what it means. You would be in subjectiveness, yeah. Well, and it's so stupid because it's like this is supposed to be an area where it's a little more black and white where we can get somewhere. It's like, okay, well, they're not following the law. If that's how we're going to, it's how one person is going to interpret it. That person is saying, no, I'm following my convictions. I'm just giving my two censors. This is not what they're saying verbatim or anything. But I would imagine that's probably what they would argue if they're not. I'm following the law according to how I interpret it, as I'm guessing how that person

17:38is thinking. And look, I mean, if you listen to the jury instructions, it probably is right to a certain extent. Because it gets into that gray area where there is a conflict in there about your convictions in following them versus the law or that they somehow magically line up. It just, it doesn't make a lot of sense. And then it invites areas like this where someone's going to interpret it the way they're going to interpret it. And I can't get involved on either side says the judge and you're right, you shouldn't get involved on either side and say this is right or this is wrong. But we don't really have much of a mechanism in place other than strong suggestions, it seems that when someone does refuse to actually follow the letter of the law or maybe we need to clear rules or something going, I don't know, I don't know the answer to this question. I don't either because you know, so always one thing to remember with human beings, if we're thinking really hard about it and we're on the outside, imagine how hard inside

18:38that jury room they're thinking about it. And you imagine how hard these people want to go home, especially if it's the numbers that they're saying it is, it's 11 against one. Because you know, and from what I understand from my self-reported on the news, the foreman is very well educated, individual. So you know, I can only imagine the amount of persuasion, influence, anything they're trying to do to argue the point of why this is not, this is a reasonable doubt, you know, because that's all they have to have. And they cannot make a budge. And so you know, to tell you at this point, the judge's words probably mean not even close to what those 11 people in their battling against them inside that jury room. Because can you imagine this person, the amount of brow beating they're getting in their day in and day out, hour after hour. And so now here, and this is where if they're not doing it for a book deal, they're not doing it for a look-a-me moment. I'm hoping that's not the case.

19:39Right. And but if that's the case, if they're doing it because they're convictions, here's what goes through my moment, my head in moments like this, where you're battling against the tide, you play the tape forward. And in that case, this individual has their own convictions and understanding of what that term means. And they're saying to themselves, I have to live not in the moment, not because I want to go home for the Liberty Week and not because I disagree with 11 people. I have to live the rest of my life with this decision that is very, very important. For the rest of my life, not this moment, this is what I decide I'm choosing to live with. Not because of a moment of notoriety, but because this is what I believe. Me personally, I don't like this. I want it done. I want it over and I don't understand why they see that there isn't reasonable doubt. But that's me. And so if it's not for a moment of notoriety, I do have respect for the fact that they're probably playing that tape forward. As disappointed as it is in the moment.

20:42It's such a fallible system. It is. I mean, it is. And I mean, it makes you wonder a little bit. Like, should we, I'm not saying this like, lightly, I'm not even suggesting we should do, but I do wonder if at some point in time, it will be erased either here or in other places with AIM. I do wonder. Where are you thinking about that? Where something could be more looked at from a truly balanced, follow the rules. How the law is interpreted. But again, even AI, I mean, that's the thing. I mean, you can do it. I experiment with it all the time. You can create two. You can tell to the exact same thing on two different threads and you make it two totally different outputs. It can be just as fallible as human beings. But in terms of weighing things, it certainly could be a lot more of a balanced thing to look at at cases than the prism of whoever had several weeks to give up to sit here.

21:46I actually thought long and hard about that one as well, Tony, because AI does, at least as of today, it seems to be objective with its analysis of things. I use it all the time when we're doing our case prep during our show. I use it all time for doing research. I wouldn't see, especially in the near future, us for Link Machine are assessment of another of human being, tool machine. Now I mean, Kevin Reddington is doing the obstacle course right now to run and get that thing over there. Right. But what I do, AI coming into it, I think, will be long gone. Here's what I could say could actually help, because this is what I've done throughout it. For me, maintain an objectivity, maintaining critical thinking. It's like the other day we're talking to cough and deferred, and I completely, and we're both are, and so is Todd and Lisa, 180% completely opposite of the interpretation. What I do is I set up a criteria, I have a protocol that I actually have in place to ensure my objectivity, to ensure my critical thinking, and to ensure I don't have confirmation by

22:50us at the best we can as human beings. The juries would have, and it's an interesting thought experiment, the juries would have the ability to take in all that data they've been presented in that jury room, and then have it objectively analyzed and assessed, and then presented to them in any way they want it for that human connection, that human interpretation, that to me would be an industrialized you all the time. Basically, could they use it as a tool? Could they use it as a calculator on a math test? That's right, I use it. Where essentially it's the word calculator as I've been saying for so long, where, okay, I'm going to use the harness, the power of this to help me better contextualize what just happened in front of me, but then you're going to get into the issue of, well, how it was contextualized, it was swayed more, I mean, I know there's a whole argument we could go down that road with, your thoughts in the comments section on Substack and YouTube as we continue here to wait for a Lindsey Clancy verdict in what a trial it very much looks

23:50like it's going to end in a hung jury unless something amazing happens in the next few moments, your thoughts on all of this on Substack and YouTube, the links are in the description. Outside the courtroom, there has been an ugly spectacle playing out around Patrick Clancy and the Lindsey Clancy case. The man moved to New York, remarried in his, tried to put one foot in front of the other. Instead of letting him heal, the internet has turned into a mob snapping photos of him on the street, tracking his personal life, and furious that he isn't publicly mourning the right way. Let's talk about this weird, aggressive urge people have to police the surviving father's grief to do that. Robin Drake is with me, retired FBI special agent. See for the counter intelligence behavior analysis. Oh, I'm getting word. We might actually have, we might actually have another, we have more of Kevin on the steps of the courthouse. And why did it go his way?

24:50Oh, my gosh, here he is again. He's, looks like he's racing. He's trying to, two, three. Here we go. All that. Look at that. Ring of fire. Tony, Tony, I'd love to say that you have too much time on your hands, but I have how which content you put out so you don't. I... Can I please host that game, Shell? Please? Can I host that? Yes, he's ticked the physical challenge. Let's watch that again. Here we go. Here we go. Mark Summers is magically also D.A. Mark is back to being about 28. You know, you should have done this. Haven't gotten off his harley with to do it. Yeah. He's Kevin making it through. You're gonna AI scary, you know? Here we go.

25:52You like to make it far? I'd love to see Kevin Reddington do the moonwalk. So if you ever want to work on something, have him do like a Michael Jackson dancer. As he hops off his harley, because I still think that Harley is part of who he is. Oh my goodness. So yeah, the Patrick question. Yeah, so I mean, people have literally taken creep shots of this guy getting coffee in Manhattan and posted them online with captions. Look at him. He doesn't even care about his babies at the dry. I mean, you should like that. I mean, I mean, when did true crime fandom cross the line into thinking we have the right to? Stalk a surviving parent and grade his pain. So we've covered this a lot with Shavon. And there's a lot of things that play into this. His courtroom demeanor. The fact that he got married three years. And so we've been talking about, well, how long is too long to grieve.

26:52We have all these little data points. But I've been really thinking hard about this. And that's because as you all know, Tony Todd and Lisa, you know, I had a clip that came out on Lisa B. Luz, who's a women of influence podcast that was talking about how Patrick stood with Lindsay. The family stood with Lindsay, co-worker stood with Lindsay. And I got absolutely eviscerated for saying the words Patrick stood with Lindsay. And I thought about this and trying to understand why. Because and why he said stood with Lindsay or stands with Lindsay, I meant that he supported her and the psychotic break because he was part of her life and he knows that wasn't her. That's the intent of my message. But the words stood with Lindsay, that's what got played on. That's what people are hammering. And so when I thought about that, I said, why were those words so triggering? And I and I when you take that optic back, here's what I really, really think this is about. And all these other data points too, but the one of the major data points that when is human beings,

27:53we pick up on creepy. And when people make us feel creepy, we have a visceral reaction to it. We don't know why, but just make us feel creepy. And so I years ago I looked at what makes us feel creepy. It's incongruence between what we see and what we expect from a baseline. And so I've been focusing on Patrick's behavior in there and how it was him grieving Shavon said the same thing. He's got walls up. Can you imagine the survivor guilty has and all these other things that played into how he's trying to cope and move on with his life. But what I really think was when people were hammering me for saying he stood with Lindsay, it doesn't look like he stands with Lindsay. And what I mean is what I think people are picking up on and I get it now. I don't think it makes any sense, but here's what it is. Everyone else that I've mentioned that we're saying is on Lindsay's side, where are all of them? They are all in the courtroom. They are all part of her life. They haven't moved on.

28:53The person that was closest for his own mental health or whatever the reasons are he's not there. So he's the incongruence. And what we've said it before, what does everyone want? Everyone wants a monster. They can't, you know, for the ones that are pro Lindsay that can't believe she's the monster because there was a monster inside her, which is that psychotic break or it was the postpartum, severe postpartum depression with SI ideation. And then the the philocyte, altruistic philocyte, you know, whatever, whatever flavor you want, she wasn't in her right mind and cognitive of it. And the reason why again, the the Patrick Pyle on I think is because he is incongruent with what everyone else in his life and her life is demonstrating in the courtroom and everywhere else. Even though he is completely innocent of absolutely any of the horrendous things people are saying about from my perspective, from testimony, from everything we're seeing actual data and not the TikTok verse. That's why I get it. It's just, I mean, it seems to be kind of this unspoken expectation that if you survive something horrific,

29:53you have to remain permanently broken to being deemed worthy of sympathy. Because the rest of the family looks at it. I mean, well, they don't, but not all of them do. I mean, if if Patrick were drinking himself to death in the basement, people would feel bad for him. The minute he tries to rebuild a life, it's treated like a betrayal. I mean, why are people so deeply offended by survival? And then they try to go to he's profiting like his friends set up a go fund me to help with the funeral costs and the medical costs. And here's how stupid some of the comments I've seen on that are. What medical costs? Bless your heart. You think Patrick wasn't sitting there at the end of the day after his wife did all this and there was no medical cost for all of that. And then the surviving child in the hospital for days and then the kids getting back, oh, trust me. There was hundreds of thousands of dollars of medical costs guaranteed for all of that.

30:55And then just trying to figure out what life was. And so here, it sees it analyzed. So if you could look at, because I know people are planning on that go fund me, which I think is really not right in a lot of reasons. But let's look at other cases. We've had them. I'm trying to remember that we've had a few of them where their go fund me's were set up. And so look at other cases, look at other examples of people that set up go fund me's that are very clearly for their own profit, their own order ride. Yeah, they're on shitty ones. And here's what the congruence on those all are. What are those people actually doing every day in their lives? Nothing. They're waiting to live off the go fund me. What's him and his new wife doing, working their asses off in New York City. He's still got a full time job. His new wife's got a full time job. There's still paying bills. So he went for a walk this morning and he's not in the courtroom. Oh my God. I just point out data points of let's look at other cases where go fund me's were used for malicious intent for profit for gain.

31:56And to think that someone strategized out, again, I know everyone that's on the hate Patrick bandwagon will always find the data points to support their point of view. Because of the confirmation bias and our amazing ability to find patterns where they don't exist. You know that that he decided that all right, I'm going to off my three kids. I'm going to set up a go fund me make a lot of money and frame my wife. That's what some of these people are actually believing right after they got off the, you know, proven that the earth is flat. We didn't land on the moon. But it's just the most ludicrous thing because again, because think about this, what have we typically seen in cases where someone's trying to profit off a death? Life insurance policies. Yeah. No set up go fund me. So go fund me's are the things that either people set up for you after the fact because you're in distress or, or you're in financial straights because you can't pay bills because I tell you. And it's not because. So think about this too. Because people say, well, you know, Reddington should be doing his pro bono's. I've heard that argument as well. Well, so put Reddington's salary aside.

32:59Do you know how much money it costs to bring to fly experts in to pay for their expert opinions? All these things it takes for three and a half years or three years plus to bring in all these people for that amount of time. So regardless of of Reddington's personal cost, the cost of bringing in how many witnesses again were there for defense? I don't know if time I had been. I mean, for defense, not it was a much smaller number than the prosecutor. Right. Because because everyone you bring in, you have to pay for. Yeah. And these experts are not cheap to pay for the prosecution side to state pays for it. Yeah. But for defense, the family pays for it. Plus, like you said, the medical bills of trying to treat her, the funeral costs, the whole, and they took a loss on the house because they sold the house in order to try to pay the bills. Or whatever reason they are, I don't want to have a conjecture on it, but they took a loss on the house from my own understanding when they sold the house. There's all these things. So all I'm saying is everyone take a deep breath and have a little grace and get a little more curious.

34:02If something stands out to you, says, hmm, dive deeper. Don't come to a conclusion and ask yourself, what does that potentially mean? And hold multiple theories in your head and try to prove or disprove everything at the same time. No. Yeah. There's so many things that need to be looked at at a clearer light in this case. And I don't know. I walk away from it going, yeah, you know, some people, you know, earlier in the year, we'd read that the male, who's the, let them book the, oh, Mel, oh, Mel Robbins, Mel Robbins book. I think I need to read it again. It's a regular philosophy, a common philosophy, but sometimes you know, you gave very caught up into how, how are you not seeing this this way? Or how are you not seeing it my way or why can't I see your way? It's like sometimes you just got to go and do the, let's say how do you want?

35:02Yes. So there's nothing I'm going to do to change this. And everything, I mean, this is one of the easier cases we've covered from the coverage standpoint because we covered it while it was in trial. So we're actually able to use just the facts and data as presented in the trial itself. And so it's been very easy to, to hear these wild ass claims on TikTok. People, people pretending to have authority or stating to have authority. And, yeah, I saw this here, here, here. And, you know, I'm not saying this, but this is interesting because I draw people in on pure conjecture, pure humanistic way to find, to find patterns where they don't exist to prove a point because you don't like something in your life because you don't like the person in your life. No, it's very easy. Just go to testimony because both the prosecution who's trying to put her in jail for the rest of life and say this criminal culpable, as well as the defense who's saying this. She's not criminally, criminally culpable. If it was able to be flushed out as a fact by either side, it would be in there because they're throwing everything they possibly can at the wall to try to make it stick.

36:10So if you came up with something that wasn't in a trial, the likelihood of you coming up with an original idea is zero to nothing. I said it the other day, you know, the courage to be just like, hey, except the fact your average, you're not special. You're not coming up with any great, grand schemes or ideas. I mean, on our show here every single day, it's just us coming up with great schemes or ideas of what we think is really going on. No, it's the bunking a lot of nutters that are coming up with crazy schemes and ideas that have nothing to do with facts, data and details, especially. This case is so easy to follow. Watch the testimony, watch all of it. All of it is there to watch. So just do it. It's just right there. Yeah, well, and it's an ability to accept information that may make you feel uncomfortable or may challenge, you know, one's understanding or belief systems, things being black and white. And this is a case that that that certainly certainly does that. And then there's one more point here, Tony, too. And this is how you do it with an open mind.

37:11And even, you know, Koffen Defer who, you know, 180 degrees out, said it on air, said to her, even though we're still friends, you know, completely disagree on probably every single point about this case with her. You know, when how brain, I can't even say his name right, the last rebuttal, special expert for the prosecution got up there and gave his two potential theories. As a guy that's on the side of I think, I think defense is right on this one. I think that she's not criminally culpable according to Massachusetts state law. According to what we've seen at mass deviations split. And this is a prosecution expert getting up there is like, he made sense. I can actually entertain that thought because I'm critically thinking through the things he saw because what exactly he said during his testimony was because of her life, arc and her behaviors and all the testimony from all these people in his life. This does he literally said, don't quote me. It was something that fact is this completely does not make sense that she would do this. So with that information, there has to be another explanation. He gave the psychotic break explanation and the other explanation.

38:13That's how we maintain critical thinking is we entertain the thought of the other opinion and actually flush it out. And that's something we need to do more of. And I like that we do that here, but it would be good to see it in other places as well. Your thoughts in the comments section on substack and YouTube as we continue to wait for the the judge to bring the jury back in. And for Reddington to be back from the obstacle course and have filed what he needs to file and we'll see what exactly where this goes from here. Let's go here. The district attorney. Did they paint themselves into a corner right from the start by going for the first degree murder? Should this have been something lesser to begin with or would that you know sometimes you go in with a harder charge assuming that that jury is going to end up with a lower one.

39:13So you do you know you go in harder. You got three children are dead. I mean is it politically possible for an elected prosecutor to offer a plea deal without facing some sort of massive back lash even if proving called blood. Premeditation was always a huge gamble. But notice the word political gets mixed into there. So the motivations of how you're prosecuting a case don't necessarily rest on you know the laurels of the case or what's right or wrong. If you're adding the word political into the conversation. Yeah political always seems to come in at some point because every time we look at trying to understand why certain people are making certain decisions when it comes to prosecuting what cases they're going to prosecute. There's usually some sort of election coming up. I mean we just dealt that without out in Vegas with a what's its face case right. Yeah. But in this case so and here's why I don't again my conjecture on this one I don't think politics play a huge part of this you know so it goes to your original question.

40:18You know why go for first degree murder when you have a lot of other options on this. And here's what I think. And this is based off of what we're seeing and if you look and if you go online and you pull up the stats on how people are standing on this case. If you're in the camp like a lot of people are 100% guilty premeditated. No such thing as her break in a psychotic you know having a psychotic break because you know you look at it's not exactly Andrea Yates like and so she's wrong she's guilty and she should be behind bars. I believe this is exactly and oh anyway the people that think that by and large are law enforcement and prosecutors that is and there's I know there's a lot of other people in there. But people that lean hard towards law enforcement justice and prosecution side oriented people there typically on that side. And so if you live inside an echo chamber of that like the prosecution does here they're talking a law enforcement they're talking to other people they're looking past cases that it happens because this case is so rare.

41:20They're saying themselves of course we're going to go for first degree murder. Why wouldn't we she's guilty when you look at their courtroom demeanor. What was really telling to me for the two prosecutors in the room was when the entire courtroom is falling apart in emotion because we had Bob Marron the inside it wasn't just Lindsey Clancy collapsing on herself balling shaking but everyone else dealing with that same high emotions looking at the pictures of the murder children and everything and I don't listen to the 911 call. The only two people not to be losing their shit were the two prosecutors and so how can that happen how can they be like that well they think she's a performative when you think someone's performing and they don't really feel that emotion and you just see them as a file human being. Their emotions don't impact you whatsoever in typically and so can pure conjecture I don't know them I don't live inside their heads but I my conjecture on this is the reason they went for first agreements they complete the 100% believe in an entire echo chamber that this is exactly the only thing that fits in their mind and anything less would be wrong.

42:25I mean I feel like that's I think how we had such vitriol through this whole case in the beginning is because there really wasn't. I don't know a lot of minds being changed or ability to to hear the evidence in this case and and and and have an opinion swayed I think a lot of people went into this middle of the road. I could be wrong sure there's some but I don't know that a lot of people were middle of the road and this to begin with and we're willing to be swayed I feel like a lot of people went in with their direction they were going and then the echo chamber started on any side and it just fortified that even harder and each side gets louder at each other. At the end of the day also both sides not hearing each other because I think it's funny in some ways when you get to talking with people on this if you have a different opinion everybody agrees yes it's horrible the children are dead.

43:29I think sometimes you you almost get so upset at a person is a different opinion about the logistics of this case which is really what we're talking about. And and if it's different we started signing. Their own attend in intent to this their own beliefs of they they they don't care about the children I think everybody though everybody cares about the damn kids and everyone wants to be behind bars it's just it's just this in general population or getting psyche actually treatment I mean seriously everyone no one wants her out in public no one wants her at the end of the people don't want this to happen again people don't want this to keep. But and that's what what gets me on it is there really is only one path for that and that's understanding this and and looking at the ways that she was failed and hopefully putting enough speed bumps in place to prevent the next one there will always be failures there will always be people that will fall through the system that will happen but if we can recognize that hey some of these things have been done better we probably wouldn't be here we will catch several times.

44:40We will catch several other others of them in the process but if we just go and say well every time that come by just burn them at the stake that's not helping anything that's that's not justice that's that's that's just you know we don't know that's ignorance in my opinion. And there's so many parts of that just just the people just don't understand that I think at the end of the day we have so much more common on this case and than people realize so even the hard line is said you know lock lock up and throw the way the key okay. But what would it cost you to just say we'll get her treatment along the way to so we can learn you know part of that treatment is have the researchers go in there and also talk to her so we can actually. Have all the red flags are going off along the system all the things that failed her in the system all the medications that weren't working for and whether you believe she's taken I'm not I don't even care. It whatever was going on didn't work why not incarcerated like you want incarcerated and then just instead of throwing away the key and being ignorant why don't we learn from it and move forward so it doesn't happen again so the whole point of criminal justice system is to.

45:53Justice and what's part of justice not allowing that to happen again I actually research justice to on this one because everyone says I want justice for the children well what is justice for the children. What's justice to the family the family wants her incarcerated getting medical treatment so so everyone that is standing for locker up in general population throw the way the key to rest your life so you're standing against. The families wishes which is the only survivors in the in the remaining so you're standing opposed to the victims in this that's interesting and it costs you as a human being nothing to allow her to get treatment and be research so it doesn't happen again that to me is justice is learning to not let this happen again I don't understand what the argument is about learning. Because it means accepting that maybe your deeply held belief systems or opinions in the past might be wrong. But I'm not even sure that's why people don't like that but I'm saying you're wrong okay you're right you want to lock the way I mean so I mean it's you know because you know again I hate bringing up

47:00I hate bringing up Jen so much but you know a lot of times on a lot of cases we wind up an exact the same outcome of what we think should happen on the case is the path we got there which is different but again if the end of the day the golden objectives that is attained good I mean I do this all time so what my team did all time was we had what I call we operated on what I called a code of trust and the first step in the code of trust is what your goal objective and priority and then the next step under that is who do we need on our side to achieve that no one have all these steps to bring on these steps. But that number one thing is what your goal and objective and priority because as we diverge on the world of the Watson house and how we're going to make that happen in the path forward that's what we get like this and that's exactly where we are today I mean seriously everyone do your own thought experiment right now everyone on both sides of this case at the end of the day we're so closer aligned than the Watson house where everyone's arguing was like she she should be criminally responsible she shouldn't be criminally responsible. She shouldn't be criminally responsible she didn't take her medications she did take her medications she was taking her for this I mean all these things in here except for the Patrick nutter stuff you know all these things are arguing the Western house but at the end of the day I don't know anyone that says we want to release we want to release and allowed happen again to other babies no one wants to go out again and have more babies and kill them and the probability that went through the probability that you know the early should be released you probably going through menopause the fact that she might end up being able to have kids because of her injuries is also pretty

48:28high so again just go to the end of the day everyone is pretty much looking for really really closely aligned the same thing why why is everyone arguing so much it that's what really blows my mind I I I I mean it goes in so many it is the spiders off in so many different directions if you strip away the lawyers and the courtroom the atrix I mean just for a second Lindsey Clancy is paralyzed from the waist down in the wheelchair living every day with the realization of what what she did I mean what does society actually gain by putting her in a state penitentiary versus a locked psychiatric facility I mean is it about public safety is it just pure payback it's it's the insatiable need for revenge and we got you I mean it's I don't know I mean I think I think people really need to take a step back and look at where the rage comes from in this case if you're really feeling it hard I think you

49:37gotta ask why and and and where she's often herself up as a science experiment literally she says I'm be I want to be your science experiment figure it out she wants to be an advocate for people not having as she doesn't want to be out forming her own not for profit you know living in society because again remember she's still on s watch 24 seven one on one always being observed because if given the chance she'll offer self she will self-delete and heartbeat and so if you're going to make her stick around she's saying I might as well again I'm not trying to put words in her mouth but from what we've seen from what we've heard the leakages that she wants to make a difference so now that this happened again if she's going to be remain on this planet let's let's look at this here in the very I mean it's highly unlikely that anything other than a mistrile is going to be the outcome here at this point right let's talk about the unlikeliness that were I mean in my opinion that we're going to see her at another

50:41trial I mean at this point I don't know I I have my doubts they're going to have to keep that s watch pretty tight I think that's why Reddington invoked this matter when you look at the language of what he invoked any invoked the you know the Karen Reed trial saying that she was able to physically make the retrial and he why he asked for a stake and not putting words in the mouth because it came in the last of me for going there but when I look at this and pulled it up it looks like he's afraid that she's not going to make it the retrial because of all the issues because of her wanting to offer herself yeah and I mean that's a legitimate a very legitimate concern because because I don't even restate it's I mean it is a legitimate concern I brought it up the other day was Chavon I don't know that it shouldn't not be an option for human beings that that find themselves in an absolute horrendous position in life I would certainly think this would qualify if you come out of a

51:43psychosis like this realize the horrendous things that you did and in the way the world has positioned itself against you I don't know I would think that would qualify to be a humane way of exiting should you choose to go my guess is that but because she's on 24 seven s watch for the last three plus years yeah so we can do a circus basically yeah I would say the only other reason that she is still here is because writing ten in her family are begging her to stay yeah I let her eat I mean what other reason is that she doesn't want to be here I don't know I really think it's going to be an interesting task take take the eyes off her and and give her the opportunity I don't think she'd be here yeah I know I agree and I think that's the reality of of a lot of this lot of angry people online I know I'm trying to like look at some of them and read some of them as we wait to see if they're going to get back here in the court we're more than an hour now into this

52:48yeah yeah emolence and that's what it is people people mistake that word vengeance and justice vengeance is a very very unhealthy thing for people to go after and literally what are you avenging I mean just ask yourself these questions why are you you as an individual if you're one of these people worked up I mean even after myself you know asking myself these things you know as I'm watching this play out and looking at the hung jury wanting this to to be finalized on the on what I think is is a fair and just prosecution and defense of this thing and and way I keep myself from getting wrapped up and that is saying well the system is working the way the systems is designed can it be better yes can be you know fixed can it be yes but at the same time it is working like it is and at the end of the day it's not my justice it's not my revenge I mean I'm not looking for any of that I'm looking for people being served public safety being served and you're not bringing the kids back

53:54and when you when you can't do anything else I pay attention to families you know when you look at the the consolvices dealing with what they think is justice for their lost on daughter and the other three that lost her hands the co burger and that monster you know you listen and pay attention to them and you know when you look at the victim impact statements they gave they those are profound and the only thing you play in forward on this one is what will of you know say that she comes back and is convicted whether this time or retrial is the next next one and the family gets up there to give victim impact statements they're gonna be saying please please put her in a psych ward I mean that's all they want that's all anyone wants I just don't understand why people are listening I don't know I don't know exactly why you know I don't know I I've been surprised by this entire case quite honestly I was talking one the amount of vitriol the amount of just directions and roads that everyone has been going down on this case where we go all the way

55:02to the the the Patrick roads to everything it's it's it's really just been kind of shocking all the directions that it has has taken us down we're now at about 12 o'clock central time we're about an hour and a half now since the judge gave Reddington about an hour to go and get that okay I mean as you're doing that so the Jerry yeah put her in a posh facility all right Jerry so let's explore that you say posh facility so you think it's a posh facility did you do the research on where she actually is right now and where she'd be housed no you didn't because if you look it up it's not a posh facility so it's it's when people make a statement that is completely pulled out if you're asked do some research before you put it out there because that is the way it works and if you think it's so here's what you do before you open the mouth open the brain and say

56:05yourself all right I think she's going to be saying a posh facility let me take a look at what that is let me actually do like five seconds here what you do just put in the Google machine where she housed right now and you're going to hear it's like Coffin Defer said this the other day oh the the system of care that she'd get if she's put in a gen pop that she'd get the the psychiatric care that they have because Massachusetts is really good so you know said well Genu made a fair point before I open my mouth let me research this for the second time because I already did it and she is full of shit because they are that facility that they have is understaffed undermaned and is underfunded so she so your posh facility what do you think it is that it's seriously when you say posh facility define exactly what that means you think she's there having having cookies and milk and tea all day long what would all go yoga yoga really sane people that you are this the reality check is so far rescue and I'm not piling on you as it's it's it's it's it's it's

57:08it's typically what people do on this is they come up with a wild ass congesture called a wag wild ass guess and they throw it out to the ethernet and then people grab onto that so yeah that's why we don't want her to be found not criminally responsible because she's going to be in a posh facility no really your foolish shit well there's so much of it I heard I heard I heard this and it's like the first when I hear that I'm like oh god tell me to hear it from I don't know like where did like where is this from where are you getting and I don't know I've really been I've been kind of amazed by talking with various folks about this case a lot of people seemingly very invested having very little in terms of facts in their toolbox when talking about it I mean it's a great case to talk about in terms of trying to understand and in for a thought exercise but you can only you know you only you only play the game if you got the parts you know you don't go to them and play bring out the monopoly board and go well we got no pieces and no money you know I mean

58:11well you can't really play the game then that's not going to work out well and now comparing it to Gypsy Rose yeah that's a real close comparison that's really good yeah the comparisons too have been really kind of wild that have have shown up the the only I love you too miss Maldon the only comparison that I mean I mean it's the comparison I made early on and I I'm going to I'm going to share this in case folks have not seen it here I think this is a fairly accurate comparison to what we've seen as a true sits where history still comes alive looking for a place where the authorities don't let science get in the way of a good story you'll feel right at home since 16 1992 Massachusetts has been the nation's leader in skipping the facts and going straight to the verdict 13 medications in four months a psychiatric hospital stay a journal full of cries for help

59:16doesn't matter if we can't understand it you must have planned it it's not a bug it's a tradition my great great great great great great great grandfather helped rid Salem of its witches every single day I carry on that fight back then we called them witches now we just call them Lindsey Clancy either way we get the job done and while you're here meet the locals our online community is home to some of the most dedicated investigators in the country they don't need medical records they don't need a degree they watched a 45 second video and they just know the husband suspicious was he at CVS sure he called 911 screaming technically but does that feel right here in Massachusetts we don't let details get in the way of a perfectly good theory you'll find people who've already solved the case the actual jury hasn't finished hearing yet that's not arrogance that's efficiency and really

1:00:22why would you waste time understanding most part of psychosis when you could just decide she's evil and get on with your day Massachusetts where we've been wrong about women for over 300 years and never been more confident visit soon stay as long as you like just don't get sick around here a breakdown and a broomstick are still the same thing good to put out cherries and pieces right before the Labor Day holiday weekend yeah I was thinking about as you're playing that again so here's something that Jen brought up the other day I thought I give a lot of thought to a lot of other states that don't have there's like four I think that don't actually have the defense that you can use for criminally insane or

1:01:22not guilty of everything in San Diego slash criminally culpable what they do is they got rid of that defense and what they use is they use all these things in these facts and that is presented during this case as mitigation for where you're going to serve your term I'd be fine with that too is again I'm focused on the outcome I don't care I don't care how you get there I'm not all I do because I think part of this is also the mental health system that failed or that got us to this point obviously you know so but that part needs to be fixed and I think that's what this is good education for but however she gets into that facility so she can be treated so we can learn from this so we cannot let this happen again that's fine with me too because again if this happened in more of those other states we wouldn't be having this conversation which I know everyone says this is not you know the mental health system is not on trial but it's certainly the cause of it I just want to let you guys know that they're giving Reddington a little bit more time and I think they're going to take the lunch break and all that and then come back so just so you're aware okay

1:02:22so he's got some more time so this is probably not going to be wrapping up anytime immediately soon okay all right so I mean I wonder I mean look at the end of the day this is this is I mean the the swimmer's future on the line I thought it was kind of interesting earlier where it was said you want them to stay into the weekend or come back on it's like what we are talking about the future existence of a human being that's what I was thinking Tony I because I think the judge said you want them to come back tomorrow and he's talking yeah he did yeah he did and I think Reddington Kennis was going about ready to go after him on that you know I know you know what Jerry wants to deliver my guest room all because I'm standing on the fact that she needs help behind bars and also and she's putting it in you just stay in my guest room what he's like I like the comment I just like why I don't know I I I I I I'm uh oh it'll be interesting to see where this goes

1:03:25uh who knows but I mean yeah I mean if there's grounds to figure this out and wrap this up yes as inconvenient as it might be to run this into the weekend to run this into Tuesday it would probably be more beneficial than another two three year ramp up to another trial uh and all of the time and all of the effort and all of the money and all the emotional uh all of that energy is being spent if it's gonna intrude a little bit into the weekend okay here's one curious I wish we had Bob on the ask and I don't know this off the time I had I'm wondering that during this time that that um Reddington got by asking for this stay can the jury can that one jury flip his mind during that time period and they come back unanimous from it if they're I mean I don't know I'd just be curious whether that's a done deal that they came back that they're deadlocked or whether the sex or time might give them time to I don't know yeah I don't know the answer

1:04:30I don't know that they're technically deliberating at this moment but they're they're somewhere you know they're they're somewhere uh but are they using that time to deliberate I don't know the answer to that question uh we will definitely be getting answers later in the day uh if there is a verdict we'll bring it to you here uh and uh if not well you know then we obviously continue to follow this uh to wherever it may lead but for right now I think we're gonna wrap up the uh the coverage and fascinating conversations throughout the day gonna be dropping with Eric Fattis and others so be sure to uh to check that out Robin Drake uh return FBI special agent as always thank you for for being here and giving us your insight your master class it's available tell us about that yeah if you want more behavioral assessment stuff and learn how to become the person that people trust could check out masterclass go to masterclass.com backslash Robin Drake and uh thanks very much all right check it out uh we'll keep watching until next time for

1:05:31Robin and Todd I'm Tony we'll talk again real soon peace