Who is to blame for Liverpool's decline?

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Subject to change.

The Athletic FC.

Welcome to the Athletic FC podcast with me.

I'm Leo Akimolero.

Once again, booze rang round and filled

as Liverpool drew 1-1 with spurs.

After missing the chance to go fourth,

is it Champions League qualification or bust

for Anna Slut?

All right, in with me today,

we've got Simon Hughes, the regular

on our Liverpool podcast walk on

and also Adam Krafton as well.

All right, so Liverpool versus Tottenham Hotspur,

watching them, they looked,

I don't know, from my perspective,

a little devoid of everything

that made them Champions last season.

Did that result basically epitomise

what Liverpool season is so far?

Well, yeah, you know,

the conceited another late goal.

I think it's the eighth late goal

that he conceited this season.

And I think if he eliminated those goals,

Liverpool would be just one point behind.

Man city and the conversation about them

might be a little bit different right now.

But it encourages this sort of sense

of fatalism really,

which at the moment is reaching

out, I would say a critical stage now

because, I mean, you alluded to it there.

There was a bit of a walk out really,

which began even before Tottenham had scored

the equaliser.

There was a sense of this is coming.

People decided to leave and then,

obviously, when the equaliser did come,

I'm feeling empty pretty quickly.

So there were problems right across the pitch

where they struggled to get up the pitch,

they struggled to keep the ball,

they struggled to defend the line defensively.

And Tottenham, I actually feel probably

should consider themselves unlucky

or annoyed with themselves

from not actually winning the game

because Richard Larson before he scored,

he could have had a hat trick,

three clear headers,

a more confident Richard Larson,

I think would have scored.

And Liverpool would have been staring down

at a really, really bad defeat.

Yeah, Adam Liverpool have their problems,

but Spurs definitely have their problems.

A team I in relegation at this moment in time,

you know, a team still yet to win

in 2026.

Does that just compound how bad a result this was

for Liverpool?

Because going into it,

here's me thinking,

perhaps Liverpool might actually win two, three and ill here.

Yeah, and I think sometimes you get these games

where the expectation is so big

that a team is going to lose

that you just get these kind of random shocks

where I think everyone thought yesterday

going into it.

It was almost like maybe Spurs

will just give Tudor one more game

to get Amfield out of the way.

Let's actually out of an expectation of

going get a point or a winner Amfield.

It was almost like let him take the pain of Amfield

and not sure where this all leaves Tudor as well,

by the way,

because it was like a result probably no one expected.

In that sense,

which doesn't really make sense

because you look at Liverpool season

and they've dropped loads of points at home

that they shouldn't have dropped.

You know, and a lot of points against teams

down near the bottom of the table,

whether that is,

they lost against forest,

didn't they?

They lost drew against leads.

Sunderland.

I know they're not sort of right down there.

Burnley.

So it is not an impossible place to go.

It is just the name of Amfield and Liverpool

and Liverpool don't close out games well enough

and they give you a way back in.

Yeah, Amfield's an interesting one at the moment.

The fortress.

Many people know,

you know, the Dark Arts sometimes Simon,

you know, things happen there

that you don't see many other football

stadiums.

Has it lost that charm?

Has it lost that fear factor?

Well, evidently, as you know,

teams have gone there this season,

as Adam says, you know, and got results.

I think that week where Liverpool lost to forests

and I think it was the same week PSV,

you know, was a really damaging week

because it totally shattered the idea

that you couldn't just go to Amfield and Wim

but when resoundingly,

you know, Liverpool could have been

much worse for Liverpool as well in each of those games.

So at the moment, you know,

Amfield is a place which is more difficult

for Liverpool to play.

I would say than the opponents

and this then feeds into what is to come

against Galatasaray.

You know, I think there's this perception

at the moment that Liverpool will just see that tie through.

You know, they do have better players

and in theory, a better team of players in Galatasaray

but Galatasaray do have some good individual players,

you know, who can cause problems.

They are ahead.

It's a tie that I think is very awkward

for Liverpool now, you know,

because there's this sort of expectation

and assumption that they will win.

And you know what Liverpool's record in Europe

and not how ties in the last six, seven, eight years

at Amfield is actually not good.

You know, I think they've won one in seven or eight,

which is surprising when you actually think about it.

At the moment, it's not a place

which is that difficult to go and get a result

and spares proof that on Sunday.

On the walk on podcast, Adam Simon,

I'm going to quote you here.

Simon said of Tottenham before this game

that they don't know who they are

and what they're trying to be.

I guess you could probably say something

quite similar of Liverpool this season in particular,

but especially defensively, you know,

a team last season that we were like,

yeah, I mean Van Dyke, solid, brilliant, amazing.

I mean, where do you think this all comes from?

What feels like a very different team this season?

You know, is it lack of confidence

or is it something a little deeper?

I know this because I listen to the walk on podcast,

but particularly and only in periods

where Liverpool are struggling

because this is like, in the same way

as I do with all club podcasts,

I find myself kind of attracted to them

even more so in times where it's difficult

just because you get this kind of outpouring

your times of angst that's entertaining.

Recommend it to everyone, but something I wonder is

whether when you have a group of players

who are very, very used to on the whole,

I mean, the core group of players going for

the biggest trophies and being in contention

for the biggest trophies.

I do think they find it hard

once the points of what they thought the season was

has slipped away from them.

So once the point of the season,

which for Liverpool, they've gone into this season

basically expecting to challenge with the title at the least.

And I think once it got to October, November,

and it was like, oh, what are we trying to be now?

We're like, man, United or Aston Villa.

That's the group we're now in.

I do think like some of those really big players

probably struggle a little bit with that

from a motivation perspective.

Like, do they really care?

Like if Liverpool finish fifth or third?

Because they are, I think, a group,

not so much the newer players,

but the ones who have been there a long time

who expect to be first position on the second position.

So I think that's probably a psychological adjustment

for the team.

Then I think there is an issue there

in terms of some of the best players of the club era

just aren't as good as they were.

You know, it now looks like the best of what was left of them.

We saw last season,

whether that's Van Dyke or Robinson,

Salah, most vividly, Allison,

even to a certain extent,

you know, is it fair to say we've probably seen

the best of him at this point?

Maybe that's a bit harsh.

So you've got some of these players who are on the way

merging with players who are either learning the league,

or developing,

and it has led to a kind of fusion and confusion,

I think, about not only what Liverpool's true level is,

but also what type of team they're trying to be

because you have an old style

that is kind of on its last legs

and a newer style that is kind of being phased in.

And I think the hope was you bring these two styles together

and you get a fantastic team

and a fantastic blend of experience and youth.

And it just hasn't worked out that way

and I understand what they were thinking

at the start of the season

because I think we all saw it.

We all looked at this squad

and thought, oh my God,

you know, look at what they've spent

and look at what they could be,

but it just hasn't worked out like that.

Adam makes a really good point

and I love the way he put it there,

so fusion and confusion

because in this fusion of the older than new,

there is a confusion in how they're gonna play together.

Is that what you're seeing as well?

You know, as I actually agree with pretty much everything,

Adam said there, quite unusual.

I'd also recommend listening to the man United,

a cuffs when they lost the European final

to a top of them last season

and I very much enjoyed that edition.

So I just let us know next season

what that competition's like and report that.

Ding, ding, here we go.

Come on, let's do this.

This is like this childish, childish,

not what you expect from the athletic FC podcast, is it?

Quite impressive response from Adam there.

I've got to say, right, what was the question?

Fusion and confusion, fusion and confusion.

Let's get back on it.

I mean, the bottom line for me is

that there's just not enough pace in the team.

I think at this moment, since I'm,

if there was a bit more pace,

Louis Diaz type pace,

not saying Louis Diaz the player,

but they have missed somebody like him

who injected that bit of urgency into the play.

You know, I think it's a confidence issue as well.

Evidently, you know, the players,

by the end of that Tottenham game,

hacking at the ball,

I was almost like you're trying to get the ball away

from them.

They didn't want possession of the ball,

which is obviously a real concern.

So it is layered.

There's a feeling that at the moment that slot

will be able to sort of stay this

in the right direction,

eventually when, you know,

that fusion that Adam talks about,

if it does work.

You know, he is the man to do it,

you know, I think sometimes results get in the way

of these best laid plans.

And if Liverpool were,

were to go out of the Champions League to Galatasaray,

it's going to be really,

really hard for,

for slot to rescue back that trust, I think.

So it's sad.

I'm curious about the,

the kind of drop-off that we see within games,

because like yesterday,

they did to me in the first half,

look like Liverpool player and field

in terms of how I imagined that.

But there's clearly this drop-off

that they get in the second half,

that also leads them dropping points

late on in games.

And I'm just curious what you think

that's borne out of,

whether it's a choice

or whether they're not fit enough,

like what's it,

where's it coming from?

Yeah, I mean, it's interesting to hear you say that, Adam,

because yesterday, I agree,

they did start with a bit more confidence

and a bit more paper,

but it didn't result in two or three goals being scored

and then just putting the game to bed.

I think the best instincts of Ansfield

is served when you blow opponents away in the first half.

Unfortunately, at the moment,

as it sort of feels like,

they're trying to sort of dominate the opposition.

But in doing so,

if you don't get a lead,

you end up having to chase the game a little bit more.

Anyway,

it's leading to this sort of second half fall off,

which, you know,

really cause them problems against Spurs

and as cause them problems,

a lot this season, I would say.

Yes, sir,

you touch on something we discuss on

the athletics week in football

on how Liverpool struggled to control games

and actually play quite slowly fundamentally

and what Adam mentioned seems to be,

I don't know,

a team that's trying to overcome that,

but fundamentally as a structure

from manager or coach to team,

it just feels like a group of players

and an establishment that's not quite confident

in its own abilities, would you agree?

Well,

this is the thing confidence.

How do you measure confidence?

Really, and I think

to play the style of football

at Liverpool and I'll start to think once to play.

You have to be confident on the ball.

You have to be prepared to get on the ball

and do things and be patient as well

and trust yourself for the chance to come

to be able to go and take that opportunity.

But I think we've brought

being fooled into this idea that every team can play

this way at certain phases

because for so long,

Pep Guardiola's teams have done it so successfully,

but they've only been able to do that

because confidence begets performance,

doesn't it?

And performance begets confidence.

It's very difficult to get into that.

That's space where you can just do it.

But it's also ability,

it's always how it's unbelievable ability applies

to nine times the time that's going to deliver across that,

whereas at the moment Liverpool,

I think, you know,

I think soon enough the questions will come about,

you know, the quality of the players that they've signed.

You know, all these players are lacking confidence as well,

but it's whether they actually are.

The question and increasingly whether

some of the players are actually the shorter players

that Liverpool need to be a good team.

This is the Athletic FC podcast

with I.O. Akima-Lero.

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I don't- let's talk about Anna Slott's future.

I mean, many will look at what's happening

with Liverpool right now and think,

well, the manager needs to do better

or the head coach needs to do better.

But, you know, do we need to look at the board as well

a little bit?

Because when you talk about fusion of the older, the new,

that structure of new recruitment

was created by other people,

perhaps as well as Anna Slott.

You know, who says the team that he's got at his disposal

is the best possible team he could be working with?

Yeah, and I think when Liverpool

spend what they spent last summer,

I don't think the plan from the board

would have been next summer.

We don't need to go and spend $152 million.

To be honest, I think it was probably

a bit of a spend for the next couple of years.

In some ways, I know they had to sort of

quite year the year before that to be fair.

But I think most of the science

made sense at the time.

You know, I think it's easy to sit here now

and say, you know, this is wrong.

This is wrong. This is wrong.

This is wrong.

What's different is that they've not all worked.

And I still think and like I said this,

I think after the community shield

that Trent Alexander Arnold

was always going to be a bigger miss than people

by the end of his time at Liverpool wanted it to be.

You know, there was almost this kind of sense of,

oh, you don't want us then off you go.

But he was an unbelievable player for Liverpool.

He doesn't quite work at Real Madrid in the way

that he worked at Liverpool in the way

that he doesn't quite work for England in the way

that he worked for Liverpool.

But for Liverpool, he was really irreplaceable.

There is nobody quite like him.

And that was always going to have an impact

on the style of the team.

Not only in kind of from a defensive point of view,

but also the relationship with Salah,

the way that he would come into midfield.

It was just a lot of ways that he made that Liverpool team tick.

Virts, to me, is interesting

because to me, when I think about Liverpool,

their midfielders just don't play like Virts does.

Their midfielders are up and down their energy.

They're a bit more limited, actually.

They're a bit less skillful.

Liverpool over the past 10 years

also haven't really done a number ten,

apart from Coutinho for a short amount of time.

That was another big stylistic shift

to bring Virts in.

And then there was the whole,

let's go and sign two cents forward.

That was the bit that I don't think really made sense at all,

to me.

And that's not just because Isaacs had difficulties

and had injuries.

It was a huge amount of money to spend on a position

that they literally just strengthened,

while still leaving themselves short

in that left-sided forward position.

I think what they really needed was pace in wide positions,

and another kind of holding midfielder.

There's things that have kind of crept in,

but I also do think there were things

that were evident even in August to be fair.

And I do think that poses questions for people

like Richard Hughes and Michael Edwards

about just the squad composition and the squad planning

and also slot himself.

I mean, I can't imagine all of these decisions

were taken without any of his participation.

He has got a voice and I'm sure he was pretty excited

at the time.

I don't remember too many stories at the time saying,

oh, and a slot has concerns about signing

all these players for this amount of money.

So I might be wrong with that, so I might know differently.

But the final point I'd say is,

we keep hearing, like,

oh, they've not got the squad that's perfect for the coach.

You're very rarely going to have a squad

that is absolutely perfect for what a coach wants.

You can ask any coach in the world,

are you happy with your squad?

Very rarely will they say yes.

It is up to a coach to maximize what is at his disposal

and Liverpool, regardless of those imbalances on the squad,

should still be better than fifth or sixth this season.

They should still be second or third

based on what they've got available to them.

And they should still be going beyond the round of 16

in the Champions League.

So if that was to be the closed position,

then slot has failed.

But if you can get it up to, I don't know, finishing fourth

and getting to the Champions League semi-finals,

you can probably sort of shake hands and say,

it was icky, but we got somewhere that's tolerable.

You were in agreement with Adam against Simon.

I saw you nodding a few times there.

I was on the Trans-Alexander Arnall's point.

The one thing that Liverpool certainly have lacked this season

is the ability to be direct.

Last season, Muhammad Salah had an amazing season

and a lot of that was born out of the relationship

that he had with Trans-Alexander Arnall's,

which had been built up over a long period of time.

Quite often it was just the simple act of,

the right back getting the ball and getting it forward

to Salah in an open position very quickly,

which allowed him to express himself.

Liverpool haven't had that this season at all.

But on the points about the sport and directors

and Michael Edwards above that,

Liverpool got big decisions to make right across the club really.

Liverpool really, and the people involved,

they've got big decisions to make,

and they've gone from a position of winning the league

not even 12 months ago.

It's quite a lot of uncertainty, potentially,

right across the senior levels of the club,

over the next 12 months.

I know football moves on very quickly,

but Richard Hughes' contracts runs out,

I think, in the same summer as Arnall's slot.

I believe that Michael Edwards' contract runs

to the same period.

So you've got three senior figures

and contracts are all running out at the same time.

So where I'm a bit uncomfortable with everything is,

Liverpool are making or inquiring

or thinking about making a change about slot,

there is that indication at the moment,

certainly not publicly.

Whatever they are, any manager,

any agents is going to want to know,

are these guys who are hiring me?

Are they sticking for the long term as well?

So I think that needs to be cleared

pretty quickly by FSG.

Just back to the owners,

we've spoken so much about how well Liverpool

will run over a long period of time.

Well, they've allowed a situation

where you've got three senior figures

all out of contract in the same summer,

and no indication of what is going to happen

with each of these figures at the moment.

So it's all very well saying,

well, change the manager.

But what's going on with the people who are making those decisions?

Yeah, it's very quickly said, you know,

obviously Chelsea and Villa both suffered defeats.

Liverpool had that chance to go fourth.

Fifth might still be enough for the Champions League,

but if slot doesn't get Champions League

with this team,

do we have to start talking about what might happen

for him next season?

Yeah, well, I think fair some foremost.

It's the Galatasaray match, isn't it?

And if Liverpool were to get knocked out there,

I mean, he's going to come under huge pressure.

Even though they're behind in the tie,

they have to win it.

It won't even be framed as like a really good recovery

by Liverpool after a difficult away leg.

It's like, simply, there's an expectation

that Liverpool win this game.

What comes next after that?

Liverpool have to try and finish in the top five.

I mean, it's still not.

It's still pretty achievable, I would say.

One way of looking at it will be, you know,

the one point closest to where he wanted to be

given the results to Chelsea and Villa, you know, over the weekends.

But the problem with Liverpool, of God,

is that I think the problem that slot has, particularly,

is that he has to put a run together.

I think to inspire trust again in him, you know,

they have to do something that hasn't been achieved this season,

which it just feels like the Garamondons say.

It calls a lot of the moment Liverpool.

So they need to get out of that cycle pretty quickly

if the conversation about slots is to change, I think.

Yeah, I wonder how that conversation will also affect

the name Javier Lanzo Adam.

I mean, I don't know if it's me being a bit too basic,

but I mean, it feels quite obvious, doesn't it?

It does feel obvious, except he's just been at a pretty big club.

It didn't go very well.

I know people write that off as, you know,

Real Madrid's a crazy club.

Okay, fine.

But, you know, he went in with a very thick,

with a pretty thick style.

Does that style suit the players Liverpool have?

Maybe in the sense of, you know,

no sort of plays a bit more with wing backs

and we're seeing, obviously,

what Si was saying about Finn Pong and Kirk has maybe

more suited that way.

But then Liverpool would need to sign a few centre backs.

I think they would need more legs in midfield.

And then, obviously, verse has that experience

of having played with him previously.

And you could have, you know, I guess two strikers in that system.

So it's not, it's not a kind of impossible thing,

but I don't know.

It feels weird to me to imagine Liverpool

with a three-man defence.

It's just not something, you know, we are used to seeing.

And there's not too many teams who have had huge success

in the Premier League.

Conçays Chelsea aside, really.

Maybe Brent for Thomas Frank,

who have had real, you know, extended success

with the three at the back.

So I'm not sure that's as obvious a fit,

necessarily as people think.

But, yeah, clearly he is out there.

I imagine he would probably take the job.

I'm sure he would be a contender

if they chose to let us go.

But it is noticeable that, you know,

there hasn't been, you know,

a spate of stories of uncertainty about slot's future.

I must say to be fair, like,

I do think if you win the league

in the first season,

and then if you get yourself in the Champions League,

even if it's by a hook or crook finishing fifth,

I do think you deserve another year

to kind of try and get yourself out of the little grip

that you're in.

Obviously, if they were to miss out altogether

because that would mean sixth.

It's harder to make the argument,

but I still think, you know,

the guys won the league.

He's won the league.

He's won the league.

You know, that should.

It's kind of mad to think about

someone being fired a year after winning the league.

But I think that is also very possible.

He's won the league, so he's won the league.

Let's not forget that.

And Liverpool were champions of the Premier League last season.

Come on.

I certainly haven't.

No, I think he has earned the right to try and get Liverpool

out of this situation.

I can't understand people's frustrations.

I think that at the start of the season,

you know, what Liverpool did in the transfer market

made a lot of people just believe

that the title was a procession.

That's the reality.

They were the conversations that I was having

and I was like, really?

You know, do you quite that level of change

to just success following?

I certainly didn't.

I do have.

I think there's a lot of mitigation for slot.

Huge amount of mitigation in terms of

what he's had to deal with this season,

stuff that other managers have never had to deal with.

You know, we've spoken many times about yellow,

jota.

I think people get bored of listening to that.

That argument and it feels like it's a bit of a cop-out.

But there was absolutely no doubt that start

on a Premier League season at title defence.

Not even five weeks after one of your plays has died in a car crash.

I don't know how you manage to even get the team together,

to be honest.

And then, you know, Liverpool have had a huge amount of injuries

in similar areas of the pitch all the time.

There's all sorts of way you can analyse that.

Bottom line is at the moment, you know,

he is in a bad position.

And if you lose, I think if you lose the match going crowd,

it's difficult to get back.

You know, I think that is ultimately what will define

whether he stays or goes.

What was that side?

Where is the crowd then at the moment?

Because obviously yesterday looks strange on TV.

Yeah.

I mean, most people at the moments that I speak to anyway,

are massively frustrated.

But, you know, I think they realise making a change now

doesn't make any sense, really,

because you've got such a narrow field of people to choose from.

And there isn't, you know, an outstanding candidate waiting

to take the job.

I agree with some of the points that you made about Chabi Alonzo.

I think he will be the natural one that you'd look to take it.

But then, I think a lot of that is because his association

with the club, rather than necessarily his experience

or where he's at, you know, in terms of his own career.

I think most people would like him to solve this.

Of course, they want him to solve it, but, you know,

there is the reality that it can't really go on forever.

You can't just give it an indefinite period of time

from to solve the pool's problems that they have.

So what I would like to see ahead of the Galatasaray game,

which is what he did actually when he plays in Samarn,

he changed the shape of the team to fit the players that he's got.

He needs to show that just doing the same thing over and over again

in terms of the shape of the team.

You know, it isn't working at the moment.

And if he shows some intuition and some change,

I think that's positive for me at the moment.

You know, I think there's a big disparity between what you read online

and what people actually feel when they actually go to the match.

And at the moment, people's patience is winning them.

But he can rescue it.

But he needs to do something about it pretty quickly.

Okay. Well, that's Liverpool dealt with for the time being.

Let's look at other teams still on the hunt for Champions League

qualification.

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You're listening to the Athletic FC podcast with Ayahuac and Malayray.

All right, so in terms of where the results leave the race for European football,

Adam Manchester United, third in the Premier League at this moment in time.

Carrick doing what Carrick does beautifully.

Manchester United beat Aston Villa 3-1, you tweeted.

Bruno Fernandez for Player of the Year.

Is that for Manchester United or the Premier League in general?

No, no, for the Premier League.

Oh, well.

No, no, no. He's been the best player to watch, I think.

Arsenal have two or three players who I think may be better candidates,

but in the sense of just kind of, you know, the quality in their positions.

Perhaps you could argue maybe Gabrielle.

Timber has been very good, rice, obviously.

But in terms of the player who has most regularly sort of excited me in a season

that has not always felt that exciting from an entertainment perspective

and also his output overtaking, I think David Beckham's record yesterday

for the most assist in a season in a team that's not always been very good at all.

Often he's being sort of forced to play quite deep in midfield before Carrick came in.

I think his level has been unbelievable.

I think it's possible that he wins it because I think there's a possibility

that rice sort of blows it out of the water.

But I think there's also a chance that the vote is split between

a few different Arsenal players.

And as we've said a few times, it's very weird to have a scene

that's going to win the league in Arsenal and they are going to win the league.

Be, you know, without an outstanding attacking player.

There isn't an attacking player that you look at Arsenal and think he's the player of the year.

That very rarely happens.

So in terms of the player who's kind of made me, you know, most on the edge of my seat,

it's been Fernandez.

And yesterday again, you know, two assists, one was a set piece

but the ball for Kenya was unbelievable.

And he has in some ways sort of not single handedly,

but he has really kind of carried Manchester United to this position.

He's always available.

His quality is fantastic.

And yeah, he's been very good.

Well, so as for Chelsea, they dropped to six after just one win in five.

They obviously lost a new castle on the weekend.

And today they've been handed a suspended transfer ban

and a 10 million pound fine for breaching Premier League rules

during Roman Abramovich's time as the owner.

Can you see this team finding some consistency Simon?

Not at the moment.

No, I don't think they've got the quality in the team.

If I'm being honest, you know, in terms of the amount of money

that Chelsea spends just to sort of go slowly backwards is quite an achievement.

Really, I don't think, you know, they've got a manager

who's track record or experience suggests that they'll get there.

The only thing is, you know, the teams below them aren't particularly good either.

So they do.

It's not, it's not a reflection of their quality.

It's just a reflection of sort of the chaos of a lot of clubs

that experience and include Liverpool this season.

I haven't really been impressed by Chelsea as all this season.

They've been being honest, very inconsistent, light Liverpool,

not Manchester United to quite the same point.

Which is why I suppose that there's so much uncertainty about who will qualify for the Champions League

because none of the teams are that good.

Really, I think at the moment.

So it could go to any of them.

Yeah, if you want more on Chelsea suspended transfer ban and also the fine

head over to the athletic to find out more.

And it is down there, where the road can go.

Down there.

Show me the answer.

It's going to become the youngest Premier League goal scorer.

All right, before we wrap up, Jens, just indulge me for a second

because Arsenal went night points clear of Manchester City

with an incredible cameo from a 16-year-old by the name of Max Downman

who became the youngest goal scorer in Premier League history.

I was at the stadium.

It was Pandemonian, Elation, exhaustion.

Oh, can we just say?

Was that the moment that Arsenal potentially let everyone know

this is their year to win the Premier League?

To be honest, I mean, I thought long ago, you know,

looking at it from a slightly more balanced point of view.

I know you've got an emotional attachment to this.

I, yeah, I mean, I just, I think Arsenal performed like champions.

I mean, I, I, I got sure to understand the conversation around Arsenal.

You know, they're not great to watch.

But I think we've totally lost the conversation around football sometimes.

I mean, Arsenal aren't there to entertain fans of rival clubs.

They're there to win the league and make their fans happy.

And if you're happy, then that is the only thing that matters

at this moment in time.

You know, I grew up watching George Graham's Arsenal

who without sounding like a proper man in the pub again.

You know, it was one nil to the Arsenal.

And it was legendary.

And then Vanger comes along, changes the way we think about football,

changes the whole image of Arsenal as a team and an expectation

around the way they play.

I understand, you know, our tattoo is sort of taking it back a bit.

But they've still got some great players in that team.

They were capable, you know, in the right moments of really here.

And yeah, do I really want to see set pieces form

in such a huge part of other teams' identity?

Probably not.

But who cares?

What I think, you know, it's Arsenal are there to go and win the league

for Arsenal supporters.

Nobody else.

If you do it that way and you do better than anybody else,

then I can only applaud them.

It's very difficult to win a league and have them watch Liverpool

for such a long period of time.

No one how long it is to wait to go and win the league.

It's been a long, long time for Arsenal going by that was a title.

If that's what gets them there, then fair play to our tattoo

for delivering it and the players for buying into the idea

because there's a lot to admire about that.

I think, you know, I think it strikes against actually what some

of those players would probably prefer to be doing.

So to get players to buy into it and encourage, you know,

to deliver it, I think, is quite an impressive achievement

by our tattoo in its own right?

Yeah.

It was an open goal, wasn't it?

Damn it.

Yes.

You discounted all the other work you did before I got there.

Come on.

No, I'm joking, joking.

It was an amazing moment.

It was really, when he came on, I actually thought it was almost like,

it felt almost like a slightly desperate move from our tattoo at the state of the game

because Everton, I thought, did really well, you know,

I talked to our Cowsky without Grandthwaite and they frustrated Arsenal.

In the way that Everton often do away from home,

in the way that Arsenal can often be frustrated at home as well by teams sitting in.

And that down and move, it was like, it was almost like,

I don't know who to turn to to actually unlock this.

And part of me thought, oh, God, he's thrown, he's thrown a literally a child

into this tense, tense stadium.

You know, the fans were groaning a bit.

It was that it was like, oh, could it be happening again, kind of feeling

that I felt from the Emirates?

And actually, and again, this is a moment defined by the outcome in terms of the perception.

But what it was was you're throwing someone in who doesn't feel that weight,

who isn't overthinking it, who's actually just going out onto the pitch and thinking,

oh, my God, I'm a kid and I'm playing it at Arsenal.

And, you know, he had one chance, didn't he, where he kind of lend back

and put it over the top?

I think that one, he almost had too much time in some ways because the move was building up

and he was by himself waiting for the ball.

But actually, there was a few moments, there wasn't just the goal,

there was moments where he took it and he kind of moved,

I'm doing that thing where people sort of build people up and compare to people.

But he moved a bit like Phil Foden does in terms of the way that he kind of,

jinked away from players and carried the ball and he wasn't worried the quality,

obviously, for the ball that led to the first goal by the pickford, honestly.

It's a good job for pickford that Downman had his moment because if not,

you know, we'd be talking a lot about, you know, the way pickford came through it and missed it.

But then the quality of, I don't think there's been enough actually about the quality of the goal

from Downman itself, you know, to the composure to take it past those two players,

leave them on the deck, I know obviously they're tired players,

but to run it all that way, it's not an easy thing to do and he made it look very easy

and it is one of those, I think it is actually one of the most iconic moments

in the history of the Premier League.

I think it's a moment we will for Arsenal fans in the same way as Manchester United,

Manchester United fans will look back at, I don't know, Makeda's goal against Aston Villa,

look at AO, look at the smile on his face.

The Tony Adams goal against Everton, I do think, you know, the way it brought together,

the players, the fans, the celebration from our tattoo on the touch line,

like Mo Salah's goal for Liverpool against Manchester United a few years ago,

very late on in a game to make it 2-0, that moment where everyone,

all of a sudden, believes we're doing it.

You know, and that doubt is dispelled and, I mean, if they blow it from here, my God.

I knew you were going to win with that.

I knew you were going to win with that.

You were giving me all that joy, you just had to bring me back down to it.

All right, Jets, let's leave it there.

Honestly, thoroughly enjoyed that side, I don't appreciate your time,

and also thank you guys for joining us as well. We'll be back soon.

You've been listening to the Athletic FC podcast.

The producers with Guy Clarke, Mike Stavru and Jay Beale,

the executive producer, who's any more head,

to listen to other great Athletic podcasts for free.

Search for the Athletic on Apple Spotify and all the usual places.

The Athletic FC podcast is an Athletic Media Company production.

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