Why is Nock Still Important? w/ George Ford Smith

In honor of recently reading our enemy the state and talking about it on

air I went to George Ford Smith at Mises.org for his recent article called

Knox War on the State. By coincidence just came out when we were finished

this conversation and I thought who better to talk to this a subject about

about this subject with then George hi George thanks for being here it's a

pleasure Monica thank you for inviting me so I I loved your article it was

spot on to what we've been thinking about and talking about and I think it's

a luxury sometimes to think about more abstract and philosophical things

especially now since I reached out to you it looks like potentially World War

3 has started in any case an unjust war what what wars are just very few I

think if any but anyway that's what that's the context of where we are right

now and I thought who better you know what these libertarian fundamentals

such as not speak to today in many ways economically domestically foreign

policy so do you agree what do you think oh yeah actually it was Franz

openheimer or maybe even before him but it was openheimer openheimer I guess

you pronounce it yep who made the this who came forth for the idea that the

state is essentially a criminal organization it functions by

confiscating the products of the working class which is in a made the

distinction political means and economic means and there's only two ways you

can go about getting what you want and the state is monopolized the political

means I can say a lot about openheimer's in influence not just on knock but on

a man named lovewood airhards Germany he was respired are you familiar with

them I'm not which surprises me because I have a lot of books anyhow I don't

know a great deal about him but he was responsible for what's known as the

German economic miracle of 1948 and he he was just he was a soldier during World

War I just a regular soldier at first he was kept out of harm's way but then

he he was reassigned or something was wounded he spent pretty long time in the

hospital he went through seven surgeries he was in the hospital at the same time

out of hurtler was it's just coincidentally when he got out he decided to study

economics and he eventually earned a PhD under the direction of Franz open

up a timer who by that time it already written his his book his magnum of an

opus I guess at the state and so he understood the distinction between the

political and economic means go ahead through World War II after the war he

became sort of an economic czar under the allied you know a command between the

U.S. and great but he had some ideas he'd actually written some articles

before that before the war was actually over saying okay one when Germany

loses we're gonna do this because we're suffering right now from all these

interventions and so forth and his his advisors were saying oh I don't see

you know that's not gonna work but he he had the confidence of his convictions

that I have a feeling that he also knew it really absorbed what he learned from

up a timer anyway on June 20th 1948 which was a Sunday he decided to get rid

of all the price controls or most of the most of them at least and have them

and at the same time this was a Sunday his allied overseers were out of the

office or he pulled a fast one I love it and the French economist Jacques

Roof said something like okay on June the 19th and Saturday the day before the

shops were erratic people were it was a huge black market because you couldn't

get reasonable price for your products on Monday the exact opposite was the case

the products were in the in the stores they had a new currency they got rid of

the what is the the re re mark and replace it with a touch mark yeah and everybody

had a certain amount of torch marks so they could go shopping and things just

started to go from there anyhow I just like I love the connection between you

know knock didn't know as far as I know he didn't know about air heart of course

he died I think in 45 1945 so this was 48 but anyway the two of them had that

connection with the insight provided by Oppenheimer they carried over there well

it looked like air heart was must have gotten some credit for that because he was

the minister of economic affairs under Conrad ad now are from 49 to 63 and then

he was the second air heart was the second chancellor of West Germany I'd heard of

Conrad ad now are but I'd never heard of Ludwig air heart yeah his name is

harder to pronounce yeah I don't know yeah yeah but yeah yeah it's good he rose

from nothing he had he was a poor student as far as I recall and he'd went

into the army and probably and he was lucky he wasn't killed given the slaughter

of world war one well a couple of things I think sometimes a very simple

person understands these simple concepts and it's a little easier I have a

son who has Down syndrome and sometimes he just tells me what he just reflects

back to me the true the truth behind all the propaganda and and it's kind of an

interesting experience but consider this too we have all these economic theories

what should and shouldn't be done and so from so they believe I guess under the

influence of Cain's that we need these price controls to you know avoid the

hyperinflation or whatever they whatever the reasoning was but the people who

actually read made the economy turn again do nothing about economics for the

most part they just needed incentives and the incentive was okay you can get a

fair price for your for your product or service whatever it happens to be so

that gives me you know knock wrote about the remnant so don't try to don't try to

educate the the masses as he called them they they're not interested they

could care less but there is a remnant who are they're interested in

understanding what the state is and what it does and so forth but here it was

not the remnants that was out motivating or you know making the economy run

after June 20th it was just a regular business people it's shopper shopkeepers

and so forth but perhaps the the remnant has value in in preserving these

fundamental truths for when the situation is desperate and actual results need

to be affected yes yeah no the remnant is very important you have to

understand you know I succeeded but I don't know how you know that's got to know

the theory eventually let's talk about the remnant because when I look at the

world I look at I mean it was very clear to me from the beginning in the

context of current events that we're not getting a president that's gonna

overturn this system who's I did not think that Trump was I thought Trump would

get us into a war with Iran I did think so because that's what you know the

state does what the state does yes but so so as somebody who's seen this

coming who sounds the alarm who is really upset both from a moral and a

legal point of view what's happening as flawed as the constitution is we

would be better off if they followed it right now I mean it's it's better than

what they're doing yes and it's it's demoralizing as a person who's engaged

in trying to keep these ideas alive because we obviously don't have control

over the evil powers who run the world it is you know how should the remnant

take hope what what should they base their hope well we're what what role might

the remnant someday play like why should we try so hard to stay with our

noses above the water why not just devote ourselves full-time to making cocktails

well there are people who think that would be a better use of time but it's

easy to forget sometimes why you're you know if you get rid of the state or

making improvements in the state even you say well why why are things better

now than they were before the remnant if you want to call them that still they

somebody has to explain why they have to keep the theory going they have to

understand why how free markets work and so forth so that's that's a good

remnant should not give up on it's just because everything looks fine if you're

if you're growing vegetables or something and the garden looks wonderful you

don't say well that's you know that's the way it is but you have to know about

insects diseases and this and that and so forth in case something happens so

you have to keep up with that I also find this interesting I want to read the

second quote that appears in your article it says Franz Oppenheimer defines the

state in respect of its origin as an institution quote forced on a defeated

group by a conquering group with a view only to systematizing the domination of

the conquered by the conquerors and safeguarding itself against insurrection

from within and attack from without this domination had no other final

purpose than the economic exploitation of the conquered group by the

victorious group that is you know sounds like a war analogy and I think it

applies both domestically and in our foreign policy and I think it points out

what is just an age old truth which is they want it to be us versus us and it's

us versus them and and there may even be a little of them versus them but the

but the exploiting class the political class whether it's domestic or

international it's the same thing and I think with wars of exploitation or

conquest or whatever it's more obvious but it's the same effect here which is

you're just trying to steal the fruits of somebody else's labor right keep a

mind though they they are very dependent on the guys who do the work if they

this arrangement the political and economic means can't arise unless the

economic means a sufficient and once it is then they they can move in and take

over and so forth but today let me back up a little bit in the book

I ran in the state it's full of it's wonderful I strongly recommended it's

it's a classic and so forth but knock does not mention the Federal Reserve it

does not mention 1930 the income tax the the passing or the also the passage of

the Federal Reserve Act essential back today at least is essential to state

growth it's critical you can only do so much by taking increase in taxes

people see that you know it's it's blatant robbery almost nobody understands

how the Fed works they think the Fed they think the Fed is an inflation

fighter the Fed as a source of inflation it's it's it has it has a it has a

target inflation rate yeah and that inflation so just one hundred percent

of tax on the the people at the bottom yeah one hundred percent even to the

point that I would say they're in the two thousand dot com bubble it burst a

lot of real value was lost they kept lowering rates and shoveling money into

it and they just could not shove enough money into it until COVID and they

shoveled so much money into it that now finally we have inflation and it's a

very if for me that 25 year example shows everybody sees how the prices because

they rose so quickly in the end is just a tax right out of their pocket but

that was a result of 20 years of of you know zero fractional reserve and zero

interest rate and perpetuity and money printing it's very clear I think if

you're ever going to see it right now you're feeling it and they admit it

Ben Bernacchi before he was the Fed here yeah it's if we have a this

technology called the printing press if we get into trouble well that can only

come about when they after they abandoned gold and what was in 1933 and they

of course they blamed a lot of the problems of the great depression on sticking

to the gold standard and that's why we've got to get rid of this because we need

to translate the currency and we can't do that was the or the gold standard with

the classical gold standard well notice the gold standard was under control of

the government wasn't a true market gold standard and that's true of world

world one I wrote an article called inflation inferno one the Roman

numeral one for me is that or I think it's one of my better articles in which I

discuss how inflation plays a role in funding the slaughter really of world

war one and most people don't really they were until that started all these

countries European countries were on a government controlled gold standard

where you could take hey go to the back with your currency and get the equivalent

and gold coins if you want our silver I guess in some cases when they

decided to go to war the central banks and the government ordered all the

commercial banks to ship their gold to the central back and start issuing just

plain currency when the United States entered the war there was no you know they

did the same thing but it wasn't a formal going off the gold standard you're up

dead anyway they could not afford that that that war was was horrible in

terms of all all the people killed and so forth and that could not have

happened on us on a genuine gold standard the people don't understand that

in fact they that's well how could they blame the gold standard for the

depression when they when you add all this trouble before you know they won't

really want a gold standard yeah if you have unlimited amount of money

and people don't realize you're spending it this is why I when people salute

trumps tax cuts everything my opinion is what I want more than anything else I

don't need any other tax policy nothing I don't care what you do if we had a

balanced budget amendment so that the people who are spending the money are the

people who are paying for it and let's see how they vote because right now

they're taxing future generations and those are people who are not

represented it is taxation without representation and then you would see how

much you're spending on what and that that the entire system is designed to

obfuscate that so that they can do things like have massive wars oh yeah and

wars the chief government at least one large government like we have our state

I should say government and state usually are used interchangeably and today

since no government is as the kind of knock refers to every government is a state

so I think it's okay to use it war is war is the health of the state yes yeah only

for the victor and not and not for the for the state yeah but not for the guys

who do the fighting and no my father was in world war two actually and I always

try to remember on father's day all the guys he knew who died as 18 year old

and yes and never left are not remembered really nobody has them in their

minds that's right yeah for war one imagine it's true in the second world war as

well there are these vast cemeteries of just you know very neat crosses laid

out other names associated with those are the American soldiers killed over

there they never they won over there got killed and came back there's no there's

no reason for the u.s. to get into that war they tried desperately to get in

meanwhile Wilson saying I'll keep you out of war and Roosevelt did the same

thing 20 years later or whatever it was but that's just the way it is one of the

things there's an article you mentioned you you did it you read the book through

your to your yeah so the listeners and we talk about it yeah that's a good idea

you made you made the comment that and I agree that the book is somewhat

dense well not wrote an article in 1939 few years after the book was published

called the criminality of the state are you familiar with it no I'm not okay

yeah I don't know if you might want to put that so yeah also in theses dot

or in that article he's and this pertains through what's going on today he said

the British state has sold it and this is just an excerpt the British state is

sold sold the check state down the river by the speckable trick very well

be as disgusted and angry as you like but don't be astonished what would you

expect just take a look at the British state's British states record and it goes on talks about

the German state the Russian state the Italian state is grabbing territory the

Japanese stays bucking hearing along to Asia at coast horrible yes but for heaven's sake don't

lose your head over for what would you expect look at the record and then it goes on it says

this is how every public presentation of these facts all to run if Americans are ever going to

grow up into an adult attitude towards them the Japanese state kills off Manchurian tribes and

wholesale lots just as the American state that the Indian tribes the British state practices

large scale corporate value like the American state did after 1864 the imperialist

French state massacres and native civilians on their own soil as the American state did in

pursuit of its imperialistic policies in the Pacific and so forth the the oh so the American

state would have oh excuse me why be astonished when the German and Russian state murders its

citizens the American state would do the same thing under the same circumstances in fact 80 years

ago it did murder a great many of them for no other crime in the world that they did not wish to

under its rule any longer and if that is a crime then the then the coloners led by G. Washington

were hardened criminals and the 4th of July is nothing but a cutthroat's holiday and oh this

is a that's a powerful article I hope you you read it I hope you're I will and I saw your

reverence to it and the what did you expect and and it was funny because I've been saying that

for what's happening now I just it's astonishing to me from Obama to Biden to Trump people I mean

I don't know how much hope people had for Biden but people Obama and Trump really had a cult of

personality that convinced tens of millions of people that it was going to be different that these

guys somehow were going to helm the apparatus of the state and change its very nature yeah

didn't happen he has no what do you expect why would you expect that yeah but that's the

trouble notice what would you you have to know you have to know your history a lot of people dogs

you know they just look at us oh you know that's terrible but oh my gosh I thought we were more

civilized on that well that's not the state it's just this one guy that's what makes me crazy

that's why I have Trump derangement syndrome derangement syndrome like when people have

Trump derangement says it makes me crazy because it's not Trump it's not Trump that what's

happening is horrible it's an abomination but it's it's the nature of the system it's the nature

of the state it's it's the nature of the power that we've given them and the fact that we they even

though we have we do actually have written down on a piece of paper limitations to that power

mean I know Spooner would say the Constitution I don't know whether it's one thing or another but

didn't really work out even so even with those limits they it's it just it cannot be contained

yeah box book is a classic libertarian classic another libertarian classic can you see this is

Robert Higgs crisis in the box oh yes I have that of course yes Bob Higgs I he retired just

before I started my show I always wanted to talk to him yeah he's he's quite a guy anyhow I mean

the title says it all yes but the title of that book crisis and Leviathan exactly chapter one

the sources of big government and he goes into very you know it's a thick book the very first line

it is we must have government only government can perform certain tasks successfully

he senses repudiated that and oh he wasn't saying that uh as a hypothetical that he was going to

repute he that was the beginning and now he he's changed his mind he has changed his mind let's see

he's an anarchist not a minor kiss but but knock was a minor kiss not an anarchist right

right he he didn't have the confidence and he said I might be wrong I want to stoke a thing to say

but he did say that he uh he's a brilliant you know he's absolutely brilliant but he he didn't

quite someone who would leave out the federal reserve and analyzing the state's growth

you know that might be one reason why you uh didn't show confidence if if you think about the

basically exponential uh impact of the fed of Keynesianism uh over time over the past 110 years

he was only 20 years in so yeah that's right it might have just balanced out with all the other

thing wasn't even worth identifying separately as just another leg of the stool yeah but he also

had that but people back in the day did object to it people did know yeah oh yeah and he who he

well okay well let that go anyhow in this book I'm happy to hear that you're continuing thoughts

what else do you have here oh hey wow that you do not consent yes later in life

Higgs moved ideologically from a minigar minorckist libertarian to an anarchist libertarian

explaining that and hear importing Higgs I'd leave it as wrong for anyone including those designated

the rulers and in the functionary to engage in fraud extortion robbery torture and murder

I do not believe that I have a defensible right to engage in such acts nor do I believe that I

or anyone else may delegate to government officials adjust right to do what is wrong for me

are you or anyone to do as a private person he also brought attention to the long history of

slavery and even longer history of government as we know if quote unquote meaning the monopolistic

individually non-consensual form of government that now exists virtually everywhere on earth

proponents of slavery once had a list of arguments that went virtually unchallenged one

respects today almost no one respects those arguments yet they would be offered any day of the

week in defense of government as we know it and Higgs Higgs had this thing where he said

slavery is natural government as we know it is natural slavery has always existed government

as we know it has always existed every society and earth as slavery government every society and

earth as government as we know it the slaves are not capable of taking care of themselves

that people are not capable of taking care of themselves and so on slavery had been around for

thousands of years hardly anybody had opposed it all that time and powerful interest groups

including established churches supported it the very idea of emancipation was widely viewed as

a threat to the social order substituting coercive government for slavery it's perfectly almost no

one opposes it it's supported by powerful interests it's been around for thousands of years

and it's abandonment would be viewed as a threat to the social order so you know what's an

interesting piece of evidence as you're talking that I realized that what's this government government

government as the next stage of the slave state is that the income tax which is the highest tax

that I know of in this country the income tax applies only to labor yes so when they say rich people

need to have higher income tax of rich people let's define rich as idle rich let's just say rich

people if you want to be rich it's you don't have to work so only workers pay for that for the

apparatus yeah though everybody who's a citizen is is liable for the tax they can get out of it

we pay tons of taxes property taxes capital gains taxes consumption taxes excise taxes tariffs we

have everything but I just it always sticks in my craw when people say raise the rate of income

tax because you want to tax the rich and my argument is that is truly the slave tax they're you're

not getting any more out of the government by paying more of that and it's not just a higher amount

because you make more as a percentage it's a higher percentage so the so that that it is designed

to maximize the labor that you sacrifice against your will to the system and I would I would I

would I think fairer tax would be a poll tax in or even a property tax where where Warren Buffett

probably owns half the privately owned land in the country yet we're paying for the air force

that defends it or well I don't get anymore you know my husband doesn't get any more protection

than his secretary why does he have to pay more taxes just because he makes more it makes no

sense but it's just seems to me like it's just a more a better form of slavery for them because it

gets you to contribute the most you could possibly squeeze out of yourself and then they take as much

as they possibly can and and all the other forms of taxes yes they're slavery but that one is

specifically labor-based yes that's right at that I hate that what also it's frustrating yeah just

to make matters more intolerable if that's possible the there's a there's a there's a very lucrative

industry of tax preparers because they fill out you it's one thing to say okay you walking down

a row and the government comes along says give me some money or I'm going to shoot you and you

hand over your mind it's more complicated than that you've got to go through this horrible

process every year and most people say I'm just going to pass it off to these to this these

professionals who know what they're doing so I don't go you know be called up I mean that it's just

like and then there's that whole industry of experts who advocate for that the way there are

industry the law industry advocates for laws and regulations yes you may or like healthcare is

going to advocate for more Medicare and Medicaid you've you've roped in the private sector as

your manufacturing advocacy mm-hmm the I still think one of the things I see all this stuff like

the war dropping bombs in a ring all this stuff that's going on the death the destruction

is horrible but underneath it all I see is not that you know that it mostly it's the it's the federal

reserve funding all this stuff the central banks funding all is the fact that we're on a fiat

system that they dictate we should use that that makes it possible you don't even have to have an

ideological argument you survive I don't want the war were they were were one would have been over

in a few months if they had stayed on the gold standard right they would have to thank you well

if I you know real money is is reflects real labor real production this the stuff that's printed

out a thin air does not it's just it's a way of stealing the other so right but it's up but that

real labor does exist it is the foundation of what is spent that's correct yeah so you're being

robbed twice once you don't even know it and most people don't know right so I think if you can

get rid of the fed that you know the Ron Paul that was this big thing it still is I think yeah yeah

and if it could be done now I don't think it can be it's just too much it's the state's right

and man well I think they they might have a plan for that in I'm not exactly sure how they

would make it work out but if as people increasingly wake up to that I'm afraid that they'll slot in

a central bank digital currency or some replacement for the fed that takes people even if it doesn't

even if it doesn't take people in the the propaganda machine will will spin a tail that

seems to justify it and then these guys will just strong arm a new digital fed equivalent in they

might they might say okay well and the fed and then you know I wouldn't put a pass them to have

a trick up their sleeves if it comes back they will you can count on it that can't survive without it

that's right you're taking away the the means of survival and like I say they may substitute

something that doesn't look like the fed but I don't know the fed is spending what three billion

dollars and upgrading their facility in new and Washington the echoes better what yeah that's

that that really hurts I wonder with that and the and the like new ballroom is four hundred million

dollars on the White House I have to wonder if some of what's going on there is really really high

tech stuff in preparation for a kind of technology that they're ushering in that we don't we're

that we may still be fighting the last battle but but but the fun but that's why the fundamentals

always really matter it's that yes we want sound money no more chicaneery like I don't you don't

don't give me an AI action plan like we don't need it we do not need to spend government money

to replace human labor when human labor is not in shortage that's right several thoughts

hit him in my did can you define define the sound money yourself personally well

I had a poem when I was an investment banker I was a high yield banker let me see if I can

remember it I this is how I I distinguished it from commercial banking or like fractal reserve

banking I would say a money earned no a dollar earned a dollar spent a dollar borrowed a dollar

lent so dollar earned a dollar spent a dollar borrowed a dollar lent because I was a high yield

investment banker you would have to go to people who had money they would give you all the money

you would give it to your guy the guy would pay interest and then pay the money back as opposed to

the other side of the wall was a commercial banking where they just wrote you a check and they

didn't even have the money and that was that so yeah so what I what would I call sound money I would

say sound money is a dollar earned a dollar spent how would you define it well I wouldn't I would

quote love my amazing on that the sound money principle has two aspects one is that it's determined

not quoting if directly here but one is that it's market determined it's decided by the people

who actually work in the market the other is it's propensity to discourage government's

manipulation so you can't if the government can't print gold okay or silver or any kind of hard

commodity so it comes from outside the system yes so I would say maybe scarcity and being outside

the system yeah right those I took a Milton Friedman was not he did not advocate a gold standard

but he had a great quote let me see if I can find it we loved Milton Friedman my father used to

sit me down and we would watch free to choose when I was a little girl but as I got older and

realized he was a monetarist I was a little disappointed I remembered the saying inflation is always

in everywhere a monetary phenomenon I mean I think I knew that one by the time I was 11 yeah well

this is not the one I wanted but it's worth nothing as so privileged as a temporary government

program that was that was Friedman who's quote are you looking for Mises and I'm looking for

Friedman's quote it was okay too many quotes too many extra what's the context I'll try to

he was talking about monetary policy if the if the money unit and the money unit consists of

beads or gold or whatever monetary policy is simple there is none the commodity money takes care of

itself and that to me was a profound ambition on his part you don't need the the board of

the set board the open market committee you don't need all this other stuff that goes on we've

got to make sure inflation is this or that just work with it don't don't mess with the

money you were very close the the quote is if the money unit is Wampum monetary policy is simple

there is none commodity money takes care of itself absolutely almost word for word but it's

Wampum not shells which are probably shells sorry I think that's something that's both true

and easy to grasp you know you don't you would get rid of these guys are now upgrading their

facility by billions of dollars and who ruined the economy and fund our wars and are essentially

destroying our country the meaning the people get rid of that before they destroy us completely

and just go back to a commodity whatever we choose you know but the market decide what they argue

though is and this is one of the many like paradoxes I think of contradictions about environmentalism

they argue that you can't have a high enough velocity of money you can't you can't grow fast

enough if you have to rely on sound money I think that's an argument and it's funny because you

you look back and right now people talk about sustainability and and actually even the

conspiracists would say there's a limit to growth and and my argument with everything is

even just how fast you can extract gold or use oil it's it's almost like God set the stuff up

for humanity and if humanity grew at an organic pace using things like gold and oil in an organic

way rather than hypercharging it with government promoted AI or Keynesianism or fractional reserve

banking we actually would have a very sustainable world probably more beautifully probably wouldn't

wreck old buildings you probably wouldn't have an international or a national highway system that

subsidizes foreign exports to come all the way into Ohio or wherever all of these things seem so

organic and natural and and the same people who have set the system up use it against us and say

okay now you have to you know your showers have to be ants bit because we don't have the water

you know that it's just they they create the problem they create the complexity that they used

to justify the problem and then they they rain down their solutions upon us and in the end they're

the ones who are going to have nukes for their AI or whatever I don't know if you keep up on that

stuff that's another thing that bothers me AI bothers you are they're going to use nuclear power

and fossil fuels for AI to to a level that human beings would never blow through that kind of

energy and these are the same dominant overlords who have been telling us the whole time that we have

to cut our individual consumption of energy and water and stuff and they're going to use more energy

and water than a human being than human humanity would have it ever like you could we would have

been fine like there's no there the the constraint is is there problems and that is the same I feel

like it's the same pipe of BS that tells us to conserve that is about to do what I consider to be

an abomination against humanity to absorb all of that energy for an artificial intelligence when

we have all the intelligence we need per force we don't need more intelligence than we have this

earth is constructed around humanity but it's all we need okay sorry I'm like I'm just

frustrated beyond I understand you're going to make control the state has become yeah yeah I thought

I had read someplace that they decided to make the AI companies pay for their energy now rather

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no problem arrangement has every right to have nuclear power for example uh but to I don't like

a regulatory suspensions fast tracking for one industry over another for they won't let us have it

so that we can have cheap energy but they'll give it to them and that's bribery that's corruption

of the state it's the exactly what the state is for to exploit and abuse the our rights and resources

for the benefit of those who control the state and it's and not wrote about it a hundred years ago

and that's what's so powerful about it you could read it and his examples are dated

but if you swapped out and he actually I read that he had intended to swap them out and that he

was going to rewrite the book and just update the examples you could do that today would be an

interesting exercise actually all the regular words the same but just the example swapped out and

they would be as for every single solitary page in his book I would say is as relevant today as

it was then yeah undoubtedly well I may ask you are you familiar with Ray Kurzweil oh Kurzweil

yes yes yes yes the singularity yes have you read his books no have you yeah are you going to live

forever and probably not the but he is the guy is incredibly smart he was I don't know if you

want to know about his personal life but he was a it's very successful entrepreneur he went to

MIT and stopped after he got his bachelor's because he could make money flying his ideas and he

imply he explained once that he based his thinking on the exponential flow of technology and he

explains it very clearly in his book and then there's an article you can read online what that was

in a written in 2001 yeah is Ray Kurzweil's article he wrote it yeah he wrote it as 80 something 87

pages long the law of accelerating returns yeah you've got it that's it you might someday I don't

I don't know where you're just go but you might want to read that to your audience someday or discuss it

oh that's a great idea the his his he makes these predictions right is this is going to happen

well he got rich making those predictions facing his entrepreneurial activities on those and there's

a you can you can look in the Wikipedia under Ray Kurzweil's predictions and see just how many

of them he got right many of them I think most of the vast majority he got right and Kurzweil

said well actually got even more than they say I got right and he explained why but anyhow this is

not a he's so you know I've watched him he came up with the singularity is near in 2005 I believe

and then just a couple of years ago I think it was 2024 the singularity is near or in other words

here's an update on what's going on but the essay the law of accelerating returns covers a lot

of that stuff just understanding that's it's very long and it but it's still shorter than his books

that's not easy reading by him that's the thing I know I you have to like stop and listen to it a

few times but I I think it's I like it when they write concisely like that because you can you

can think about it and you have to think about it and it's it's not easy to read but it's short

and you can do it and you can hold those ideas in your head many things from our enemy the state

since the first time I read it a couple of decades ago just stuck in my head had very pithy

basics one was will be in this situation for as long as man believes a job is something to be given

yeah and that was a notch and I when I first read it I didn't understand it like I just I never

it didn't ever I didn't even know what he's talking about and over the years oh my gosh especially

now that a lot of people take the Benedict option or whatever go grow chickens in their backyard

you realize that that human ingenuity and the effort in soil and toil mixed together and that's

that so that's the only thing I really worry about people ask me like no how can you really be

against antitrust laws or why do you you who would build the roads of ever and my answer is

as long as you have air water and soil everything has substitutes everything has a substitute

and I actually think that this these evil overlords at the top now they're controlling air

water and soil and I and and that is what concerns me yeah the some of the objections to

having a lazy fair type society I thought knock has done an excellent job responding to

like the the laws in England what do they call them the

that that move people off the off the land into the city oh the um enclosure movement

you got it yes that was terrible oh yes it wasn't terrible and but people seem to forget that when

they criticize industry things like that and he's also very sharp on the development of railroads

and it's in the steam power and so forth he understands that before there's a book written explaining

why the government subsidies of the railroads was a disaster but James J. Hill yes funded his own

and that turned out to be streamed by you know it covered both of those things so

but that was a be that was after knock road so we didn't have the benefit of reading the book

I'm referring isn't really yeah so the uh I'm sorry I wish I could remember hang on a second

well I am looking for the one that discusses the railroads and how that

financed if you want to put it that way by the government and how that went wrong because

it built that the railroads are built in a regular matter it just they were paid by the

vials of track and so forth and it was just a horrible thing but Hill had paid for his railroad

out of his own money as I recall and he worked with local communities and helping to sustain that

I think was in north I can't remember anyhow the there are a couple of books one is Harman versus

Hill Wall Street's great railroad thing there's another James Hill empire builder of the north west

railroad barren I don't know but uh yeah the the railroad example when I when I was a banker

we I worked for briefly in a group energy and and mining or something and petroleum metals and mining

and one of the things that our clients did was called flaring gas they flared gas so when they

duke for oil is oil and gas in the same reservoir and you can harvest the natural gas you can harvest

the oil separately but the government was giving or you can pump the gas back into the hole save

it for later because you don't need it right now because the price isn't good and but the government

was giving for some reason subsidies they wanted natural gas to be used so they were giving

subsidies to these guys for extracting the gas but all you had to do was extract it so over they

would just light a fire over the well and they would just flare the gas is that sick sick I've

never heard of that sick I remember I'd be horrified and my husband by coincidence had a similar

job and he was straight out of school he was in a bank that did that kind of thing and he said oh

yeah remember you'd have to write the tax credits on one of the line items it was I remember just

being horrified that the level of just fundamental immorality not the moral perversion of it all the

moral hazard of it all but that that's like the the railroad thing they were making inefficient

railroads because the incentives were regulatory top down and weren't connected to the value added

which would quickly be corrected because you would quickly find that through cost accounting

or whatever that you are not this isn't a good use of resources right can we just switch back to

knock for a second when he talks about the political means and why the political the political

means become so popular he says it's there's an instinct is the word he uses in people that they

want to do things as easy with the least possible effort and I don't know if that's universally

true I don't know I don't know if that's been demonstrated beyond you know beyond out but he

was asserting that it says that is the reason why the state succeeds as it does because the

promise is easy things that you're out of a job will give you job you need medical medical care

will provide of course we're gonna do things to you that you're actually provided they're

excited to give you to sell your medicine then they need you to be sick yeah so all this stuff

and that appeals to them and that's that's what what you're up against when you're trying to argue

with people that the state is not your friend it's not your benefactor people say you know hey yeah

you know I'm not going to live forever I'm going I'm going to enjoy it while I'm here if they

they've set this up for me now I'm going to just why bother opposing it it's just no way

we can win so but the remnant thinks otherwise and I think that's I think that's important

the his will we can end with this that at this point is that one of the many things that

is timeless and what he says is on that line like the human relations human society the interaction

between human beings and whatever he says it very concisely it has there are there are errors and

undesirable outcomes or some winners and some losers along the way but into imposing the state

on that system doesn't make it more efficient or reduce the actual amount of errors it actually

increases them you cannot have an errorless system and he says similarly right you say you know

people are flawed they're incapable of self governance from where are you choosing people to

lead them from the people they're just people they are no better they're no better qualified for

for governance than you are for self governance and they have the added incentive or opportunity

to exploit you on their own behalf the the system just logically cannot break down it's a

fundamental conflict of interest on many levels yeah but I did I hear you say the system cannot

the system the system cannot change the fundamental imperfection of human society right you can't

you can't make it perfect the government made of people who are who are flawed and I actually don't

even think it's a flaw it's just the fact that we have competing interests and they rub against

each other and that's why you have common law like there's just who owns the water can I build a

dam like we have to hash this stuff out and not everybody's going to win but they did that you

know that's government that's his distinction between government and the state which I think

has value okay would you would have what if I proposed that same we can get rid of this 100%

the state that that's what Rothbard that he had this button he had an article written called the

do you hate the state and there he talks about a mythical button that if you could push it

eliminate the state immediately he would go for that's something nock would not do he's he mentioned

it in his book someplace he didn't use the word button but he would he would say that's that's

that wouldn't work I don't know why but what I got from what you said and what nock says is

there'd be a government that's still called government and it's it's vague because if you're

going to have any kind of government in the traditional sense it's got to have this monopoly of

force yeah and no other in no other organization has that legitimate claim to it and if they they

there are other you know a criminal organizations of course but for instance if you don't like

Microsoft you don't have to buy the products if you don't like Apple you have to buy the product

you're stuck with government yeah if you don't like the wars too bad you can go to another company

I country whatever but you know you're gonna run out of countries eventually

it's just it's not a it's not a it's not a market thing it's not a free market thing and

but the free markets offers I'm convinced offers enough incentives and so forth to

handle all of the functions that the state now claims it's so responsibility such as

that what they call national defense and the if you look back at the how we came from

the declaration of independence to where we are with the constitution and everyone ignores the

knock mentioned that the actual the the articles of consideration were actually it was actually

a League of Frontier not a central government and that's something close to establishing a

a free market but you're still you still had instead of one big state you had still had

those 13 originally states that had monopoly power so obviously you know if we can think in terms

of no no force no coercion and the but you say well how do I protect myself you but look at

people how they look at how the rich for instance protect themselves they don't have been done

they have their own private security and so forth but you can have security for a community

that they people pay a certain that's insurance you pay a policy on a policy and say well what if

about poor people and so forth all those things can be handled directly indirectly just like it is

now some people with health insurance really drain that the company because they're unhealthy

you know if it's any if as long as it's not their fault you know they're not practicing unhealthy

things the the most companies just overlook it they just pay it so you have this unequal

drain from the insurance pool so to speak but it works so far I mean it wouldn't theory works I

know it's and there's a lot of problems with it today absolutely there's nothing insurance

couldn't cover even my having had a child who has Down syndrome which is a much very expensive

proposition yeah if the chances of me having a child with Down syndrome at the age I was was

one in 400 and if you got for yeah one in 400 yeah I was like it kind of low and if you got

to I always thought well what would you do you would get a 400 people together each to contribute

a thousand dollars and whoever lost that lottery would get four hundred thousand dollars

so before you got pregnant you know what I mean like why not what's wrong with that is a great idea

and then you then you would think about the risk that you were entering a pot into at that point you

would know oh my gosh I didn't know that's like one side I got life insurance and I started

smoking again and they took a blood test or urine test or whatever and they found nicotine and they

cut off my life insurance for a year so I never smoked again for a while I didn't smoke for like

16 years so I was thinking so insurance was great the the church I'm Catholic despite the

Vatican and all the terrible things they do just like every government state politician whatever

terrible terrible but Billy it like let's say a billion people follow the Catholicism and the

main tenets that it actually has you live is self-control which includes healthy habits you can't

be gladness or ever and charity there's no coercion whatsoever and practicing Catholics by

definition the practice requires self-control and charity so I know it's possible to live without

the state as far as that button goes I believe that the two issues I would worry about with that

button are the that we have gotten so far away from understanding self-governance that the

abruptness of it would people would be unprepared it's like legalizing pot or legalizing guns after

you've you've robbed people of any heirloom wisdom regarding those practices at all your parents

didn't do it your grandparents didn't do it be very tricky and then unless you banned it forever

you would open up the possibility that it would just come rushing right back in I think that was

a nosic thing that I might have read in Higgs but I would say what if that button just said

you may opt out and no one will come shoot you in the head so if the south met you may opt out

like the south could have opted out or you personally can say oh sorry postman you can't come on

my property you're not allowed to do that they will come drag you away I don't want your protection

and I'm not going to pay your taxes you can't do that they will throw you in jail right so I want

the opt out button that's all I need it would be nice I hadn't thought about that that's that's a

good idea I like it and that and that's the nature of the state is so coercive that you cannot

say I do not and I've had with my son who has Down syndrome the only time he's ever been in a

truly dangerous situation is when he's like once a year once every other year he runs away

someone will call the cops and two or three times I've come upon the situation where there's a

facing him down with his hand on his gun and I'm like this kid in one case he took his shirt off

and he had a stick and he said don't come any closer you know I'm armed and I was like I'm going

in there and the cops like no you're not like I'm going in there you're the only idiots who

could actually hurt me and I can't let you and I I'm not very courageous person but I had to

they were insane so I would opt out yeah I would opt out of that protection I didn't call them

so yeah interesting so I see that you wrote I didn't know I saw many beautiful articles by you

on Mises really not too long but very to the point I love it obviously you know you it's bite

size and very reflective could you tell me again the name of the article that you said you thought

was one of your best about world war one and the possibility of money which one is that in

inflation in fertile one we're on the new model one okay I'm gonna do that and and I see that you

wrote a book do not consent think outside the voting booth can you and as our conclusion

concluding exchange distill something hopeful or practical or you know I that seems like

something that has some practical advice and that how how do we think outside the voting booth

well realize that well a lot of people a lot of people voted for Trump okay that's why you got

that's why he's in the White House but look what you got there there are a lot of them are

disciplined most people don't like what he's doing to Iran but could I lead you something quickly

here please do take your time yeah we're told that Hillary Clinton won the popular vote popular vote

in 2016 by almost 3 million votes but how popular was that vote really she did not win a majority

of the votes cast 48% and as a percentage of the total US population that figured

the shrinks to 20.3% roughly 4 out of 4 out of 5 people living in this country

did not cast a vote for Hillary Trump didn't even worse at 19.41% excuse me nevertheless there was

a clear cut winner an overwhelming winner in the 2016 presidential election the winner

received 471 electoral votes and won all but eight states and DC who won this landslide can you

guess Israel yes according to brilliant maps dot com did not vote smashed all challenges so

wow the uh as a it's not a matter of finding better candidates the current system for

bids better candidates as it did with Ron Paul yes and that's what but I'm trying to say is I think

it's it's difficult to quote a famous people because they sometimes you learn that they didn't

really say those things but I believe it was Einstein said we can stop war if people just refuse

to fight if the soldiers refuse to pick up arms and he said it much more succinctly than that

but like okay what if no one comes to the polls yeah we've already have a lot of

most people not voting and people who don't vote are considered you know just you know they're

terrible so that's one way to do it I have to say finally made that decision as well and for

my entire voting life I voted for Ron Paul I would register whatever necessary I would have to do

maybe a register Republican for primary whatever I just always voted for Ron Paul my father's been

supporting Ron Paul my father had nine children would send $25 to Ron Paul in the 70s for his

congressional races in Texas I guess just really crazy so uh we've always been a Ron Paul family and

I only this time and yeah and he's still alive so I was gonna do it until the day died but

after Syria after our little cabal over ran Syria and I just I said you know what this is an

empire I have absolutely no influence over whatsoever I wash my hands of it I'm not even I'm not

even voting for Ron Paul I will never vote in a federal election ever again I will absolutely not

do it it's sick I mean it brings tears to my eyes I cannot and I now as a person who's in the lucky

enough to live under the safety of the center of the empire here now after the saran thing we've lost

all moral high ground all right to sovereignty all uh everything like now I feel for the first time

in my whole life very vulnerable to the chaos that we rain down on the rest of the world but yeah I've

given up voting this time yeah I feel that especially when I get on an airplane you know what that

was very effective in 2001 and I know they go through a lot of things today but to try to prevent

that but you know the vulnerability yeah it exists so yeah well it's a good place to

anything else that you want to add is totally great but I I think yeah I've given up

doc mentioned Thomas Payne I've done a lot of writing on Thomas Payne he's one of my hero he said

that Thomas Payne said the government is unnecessary evil let's keep it as long as you know

minimum is possible he was always consistent but at least he that was what he met at the point he

made in common sense sense which help generate the actual revolution the Declaration of Independence

and recently you know there have been books written it said no maybe Thomas Payne actually wrote

the Declaration of Independence and people saw that's ridiculous Jefferson did that and then it was

modified put through a committee called the congressional congress what they didn't change too much

anyway the there's evidence and it's I had an article about it it's called did the did this

country have only one founder or something like that it's on mises.org and they found

this paper that had the initials tp on it and in reference to it made a reference to him the tp

whoever was having done a draft of the of the Declaration and it's some of the details

of my mind now Mark you might want to check it out on mises.org I'm looking for it I don't see it

here but I but I'll track it down I want to ask you about Thomas Payne and knock who I've seen

more than once references to the possibility I think Thomas Payne was an avowed georgist

do you know the georgism idea georgism is where they they believe that like property is not owned

I mean that's like major like real property like land cannot be owned enough it's a crazy thing

no it's it'll blow your mind and I think I read the Thomas Payne will have to save this maybe

you'll write an article about it or we can talk about it um sure was Thomas Payne a georgist and um

you're looking at an article now that says that I just I just I've seen it before

it says citizens dividend as a proposed policy based upon the georgist principle that the

natural world is the common property of all people and oh he oh it says Thomas Payne is not

typically classified as a georgist but his ideas and his work agrarian justice laid the groundwork

concepts later embraced by georgists regarding land value and social dividends okay so he

wasn't but it's a really weird and I saw a knock refer to it also this idea that land has value

as rent but you can't own it and I I just I wonder a guy like you might if you if you've looked

into that I would be very interested in what your thoughts were I'll check it out I haven't

mostly it's uh Thomas Payne and his well he he got in trouble he was a hero until he wrote

age of reason and that that did a man with a lot of people even though it was it yeah you have

you read that book I read common sense of course but yeah everybody had uh age of reason no but

this one is agrarian justice Thomas Payne agrarian justice okay I'll look into that more detail

yeah I'll look forward to hearing from that so is there anything people can do to where do

it where's the best place for them to find your work on reason dot org or lourockwell dot com and

on lourockwell i'm george f smith they dropped oh nice mises dot org yes it's very easy to find all

of your articles on mises dot org just type in george for smith your author page comes up and

there's dozens of articles that you wrote excellent articles thank you i hope you like inflation

infernal roman numeral one yeah i'm going to read that right after the engine of palatano and i'm

going to put these things i'll put all of this in the show notes to our conversation sounds good

well thank you so much george it was such a pleasure talking to you it was such a nice relief

from uh reading the news so it's just so stupid i read the articles and it's just

the excuses for this just it makes you if you're lucky it makes you dumber so that you can't

but if you're unlucky like me it just makes me want to tear my hair out so having an intelligent

conversation about uh foundational issues is is uh giving me a little proper rotation of brain

and i enjoyed it thoroughly for the same reasons thank you george i'll be in touch with you i'll

send you some links and look forward to this being posted with the show notes and everything and uh

and i bid you adieu thank you take care now

you