Anthropic boss calls for AI slowdown

0:00Hello and welcome to NewsArph and the BBC World Service Live from London. This is Owen Bennett Jones and coming up a little later in the program as the singer Celine Dion takes the stage after her treatment for stiff person syndrome will hear from a fellow sufferer. Well we've got to manage if you're lucky enough to have those resources can really make you look great while you're out. And it's almost like it's a double edge sort of many ways, but if you look good when you go out because you rested, you took the right meds, you were there, you planned. People think in a way that you don't have this disease. So managing a terrible condition will hear about that little later. But first of all, US President Donald Trump said this week he has no concerns about AI leading to human extinction. His concern rather was that China would win the AI race. But some of those

1:01actually involved in making AI are saying they're less relaxed than that. The boss of Anthropic says the industry should slow down. And other big names are also agreeing with that, including open AI Sam Altman and Elon Musk on top of that. A couple of Anthropic execs resigned this week. One of them Jacob Coxon has told the BBC, there is a strong chance we could all die in the immediate future. Well, Jelen F is a professor of responsible AI at Queen Mary University of London joins us live now. It does seem more and more people who are at the top of this really are coming out saying regulate me. Is that right? They're saying regulate me with huge caveats. Dario Amadei is calling to quote pace the frontier of AI development just as the company are floating a $1.6 trillion IPO. His message is clear. Anthropics say they have such powerful technology that only they should be entrusted with it.

2:06The sentiment is both on democratic and also cynical. But I think we all need to be heating on the holidays warning here. The technical development of AI right now outpaces the social, legal and regulatory advances that we're going to need if we're going to use AI safely in society. So are you saying that Amadei, this head of Anthropic is basically saying Anthropics, yeah, he's thinking Anthropics in the lead. So it's fine if we freeze developments just now. So leave me ahead. Well, they absolutely want to pace right at the moment when they're in the lead. So for example, OpenAI just announced that they're putting a pause on their own IPO because it would be unsafe to do so at this particular moment. Anthropic is going ahead. What they're calling for in this regulation though is thin when it comes to regulation. It's like regulation proposed by

3:07a high school dropout of Model UN. They would hire independent evaluators to sit in house with the company. Now, we've seen that story of businesses doing self-regulation before and it always fails. Well, just to understand the threats, I mean, because all these statements are made. Now, Amadei has said, rogue AI agents could take over the internet in six to 12 months, causing hundreds of billions of dollars in damage. I mean, that's slightly vague way of putting it. What does he mean would actually happen? Yeah, this is coming on the heels of one of Anthropics regular reports around the cybersecurity abuses and other harms that they've detected within the company. And what they can see is that bad actors around the world are using clawed tools like ordinary people do to do some bad things. And they're worried that as we move to what's called the agentic AI moment, that these agents might not be able to be controlled. They want good people

4:12and in this mis-sive he published democratic people to and US people in the US to control AI and not other countries in the world. The report has lots of examples of China, Iran, and others. Yemen using clawed tools to do bad things. We're just going to hear about the Yemen example just now. But just before we do, you've used this word agents. It's slightly confusing. And basically, that word means rogue, not rogue agents really. Rogue computer programs, is that right? Agents aren't rogue. Agents are simply computer programs that can work autonomously without being specifically programmed to do a particular task. So they're given a goal and they're said, crack on, go for it. And the challenge here is that those agents don't necessarily, they haven't been to school, they haven't been to church, they don't have human discernment. So the kinds of values that AI agents have to go about those goals aren't human values. We might understand if

5:17something is legal or immoral or an ethical or could really get us into trouble. AI agents don't have that sense of right and wrong. Yeah, and you can't just tell them to abide the law. That's right. You can put in guardrails and you can put in safeguards that make sure these agents aren't stringing together very complex tasks. And that's partly what Amade is calling for here. Remember, Anthropic was founded five years ago by computer programmers who broke away from open AI because they thought that company was not doing enough for AI safety. And now they're in the lead, they're saying they should be the ones to create safe AI. Okay, let's just hear about the Yemen example that you mentioned because basically Anthropic said users in North Yemen, they didn't say who, but really this has to be the hooties, carried out sustained effort to develop guided weapons with the AI platform Claude. Well, Sarah L.D. reports

6:20on Yemen from Lebanon for associated press. So what details did Anthropic give about this? They told us in a report, a lengthy report that came out on Thursday that they have been able to identify users in North and Yemen that were operating in cells, basically like a software engineers that have worked to develop and design weapons programs, three different programs to develop and design weapons. Basically, all of them sophisticated precision, long range, ballistics and missiles with hypersonic capabilities. So the attempts were picked up, the company tells us that it was picked up because their safeguards blocked many of the requests, but not all of them because they used tactics to evade detection such as hiding their goals or splitting the work into different sessions and so on. It is a very striking report and from your knowledge of Yemen,

7:22when they're saying users in North Yemen, that does sound like the hooties, right? They don't identify the users, they don't tell us who they are, but we know that North Yemen is the territory held by hootie rebels and it's controlled by them and we do know that the rebels have wide of weapons sophisticated as well, long range as well, cruise missiles, ballistic missiles. I think what I've understood talking to weapons experts and people who know about the weapon capability of the hooties is probably while everyone, as we've seen everyone is trying to understand how to use AI for their daily life, it seems that the hooties are using experimenting with the models to see how they can probably produce their own weapons domestically and kind of be self-reliant. One of the attempts, as we understand from Anthropic, is to use a mobile phone software, something that you can find out the shelves, to develop a guided long range missiles. So this is in a way or what was one of the interpretation was, it seems to be their attempt to kind of use domestically

8:28available components to produce weapons. They have a lot more text savviness than we give them credits for. Yes, interesting you say that, so I remember Ben Laden when he was leading Al Qaeda, said we're not going to use email and we're not going to use any of these messaging systems because it's not our technology and we don't understand it and we're better off using paper and paper messages carried by messengers because we know that's secure, we don't know what we're doing with this high text stuff, but maybe that's changing and the hooties are at the front of that change. Well, when we spoke to the official, he actually dismissed the report and said we are developed and sophisticated armed force and we will not be using open source to develop and produce our own military capabilities. So I think the line is the same, but it seems to be available for everyone, I mean, everyone is experimenting with how to use AI, I don't see why fighters in Yemen wouldn't be. Yeah, it's free. It's free and it's there. That's free and it's there. I mean, I think what anthropic

9:29is telling us and I think this is the other thing is I tried to reach out and to get a bit more clarity on the period and a bit more information, but I haven't heard back, but I think what they're telling us is that their safeguards managed to block many of their requests, but not all of them. So I think that's also what the company wants to say is that it's putting out the attempts that have happened using its AI models, but we don't know what else is going on there. I mean, we know as much as they're telling us, basically. And that's Sarah L.D. from AP Gina Neff, professor at Queen Mary University of London still with us. I mean, it may sound naive, but what, isn't it possible for anthropic to say don't help anyone make a missile system? Don't help anyone make bacterial weapons? It's absolutely not naive. In fact, it's what companies like Anthropics should be doing. And to be fair, Anthropic is stepping into that leadership role. I think many people would also want to see governments able to step into that

10:34role. For example, the United States dismantled their national AI security capabilities when the Trump administration came back in. They threw out the work that had been done through the AI summit series internationally. The UK, on the other hand, is now seen as having one of the world's leading government AI security institutes that can do those evaluations. Those kinds of choices of who should be able to use this powerful technology should not be in the hands of a few dudes in northern California. It should actually be much more regulated. I have read that China is actually probably ahead of the US on this. Is that true, do you think? China's certainly ahead in terms of thinking about regulation and safety. They've from the beginning wanted to align AI very closely to Chinese values and Chinese development. In terms of where we're going at the frontier, China has access to what's called open-weight models. These are ones that we might call

11:40open source. They're slightly different and less powerful for now than the ones that are being developed in the US. The gap is closing, however. And so being able to say that one country can have monopoly on AI may not be the future we're going down. But I guess the point is on the regulation side that is very difficult for the Americans to accept regulation if they think they're going to slip behind China in terms of the AI development. That's attention underneath all of this, isn't it? Well, absolutely. The idea that going full speed ahead is going to lead to harm of people is also going to lose the race. We can't lose the race and lose our lives at the same time. Okay, well, thank you very much. You're incredibly clear in describing all this. That was Gina Neff, professor of Responsible AI at Queen Mary University of London on some of the risks that even the bosses of AI companies are now beginning to highlight. You're listening to

12:43the world's service of the BBC. In Paris this evening, Celine Dion has taken to the stage performing once again after her appearance at the Paris Olympics this time in a series of full live concerts and tonight's is the first. She was diagnosed with a ran urological condition four years ago at effects her singing voice. It forced her to cancel shows and left her struggling to perform. There has been a lot of excitement from her fans about her return to the stage, including those who waited outside her hotel ahead of the show. It's no word. It's unbelievable to stay here and to go to the concert and to see Celine is so close, so kind.

13:44And she's feeling good, she's happy and it's unbelievable. We're incredibly excited because we know almost nothing about the show. No set list, no details about the stage and hardly any information has leaked, which is unusual. We can't wait to hear those first notes and witness her big return. So she has a really big following and a lot of talent but she does have this terrible condition, stiff person syndrome, SPS. It's rare, it's incurable, autoimmune disorder, effects only around 8,000 people across the world. And it means basically your muscles get very stiff and there are spasms and she's described it as feeling of they are being strangled. Alia Khan is a doctor who's got this. She was diagnosed at the age of 31 and now is forced to work mostly from her bed. I asked her whether she's surprised that Celine Dion is able to perform

14:46with this condition. I'm not. If you told me a person has stiff person syndrome many years, she's been struggling with it. I might say yes, being on stage, that's going to be whoa, too much. However, having lived it and discovered that this disease is all about personal management. It is a spectrum disorder that can have some people walking and some people bed ridden. It can have some people working, some people not working. So those big swings, I think are what are so confusing for people that don't have this condition. Your bed ridden, right? I'm in the bed yet 20 hours a day. And does the condition fluctuate? Do you have good days and bad days? Right. So she might be able to to predict that to some extent and perform when it's good. Yeah. And even when we're having bad days, if we know that there's something that evening, we're preparing. I'm going to take these men's at this hour. I'm going to put on these clothes at

15:48this time. And with our medicines and immunomodulating chemotherapy, Dix and what we've got to manage if you're lucky enough to have those resources can really make you look great while you're out. And it's almost like it's a double edge sort of many ways, but if you look good when you go out because you rested, you took the right meds, you were there, you planned people think in a way that you don't have this disease. And that's why there was concern in the patient group that Celine Dion, Dion, going on stage in a way was making people think this is not such a bad condition to have. Or that it's very manageable if only we find the right thing. And if that was the case, we would say, what do you want? And then we'd all go on it and we'd all be better. But so I like to give her some credit that it's not all better. It's that she knows she's got the schedule and she can make it work. You know, as a medical director for eight months, making it work with a central

16:50line catheter in and hiding it with turtle neck. So simply, I would put it that this is an auto immune disease. So your own immune system is is crashing down on the enzymes that put breaks on the nerves. So you're fast in all of your nerves. It's why we're rigid motor. And then it also why our throats can tighten up and we need Botox or on our vocal cord, etc. But it's also a fast mind disease. So you know, your mind is nerves. And so that's where the psychiatric symptoms come in that keep us inside. And so it's not just the falls and the physical rigidity, but it's also all of that psychological damage that makes you not want to be your best. The thing is strikes me that with just 8,000 people suffering from this awful condition, it means there must be very little economic interest in a drug company working out a solution, right? I mean, if it was 8 million or 80 million or 800 million, there'd be a lot of work going on it. Exactly. I understand why there's,

17:57you know, like you said, the dollars aren't going there. And that's another thing, you know, Celine Dion has to deal with is why hasn't she given more? And I'm always shocked by that. But yes, those are the kind of questions that we feel as people that are like, you know, in the advocacy spotlight. Hey, Ilya, why isn't she giving more to that clinic or why that clinic and not, you know, and they want to know what is hearty therapy or what is this immunomodulation? So I think there's a lot of confusion in the community as to if there's something that he picks us, why aren't we all on it? You know, you sound so reasonable in your approach to this. And it's obviously a really awful situation you're in in bed 20 hours a day. But get given your attitude to this. Just tell me, what is your feeling about Celine Dion performing tonight? I mean, do you celebrate it? Do you worry about it? What do you think? I, I celebrate it because I think that the team around her is

18:59probably gangbusters. So I'm not as worried about her falling or some I've lost to adult teeth. Like we've smashed our faces, all kinds of things. So I worry about her less in that regard. Like she's got a good support structure. A lot of this disease is about your support structure. Which leaves many in the cold because it's a mysterious disease. Nobody wants to just really deal with it. So I feel a little bit celebratory in that like yeah, like heck yeah, one of us is going out there and doing our thing because even if it's just for one time, yes. On the other hand, I feel bad for my counterparts that have to hear from their spouses like she's doing it. How come you can't? And that's a very typical one. You know, if she's doing it, why can't you find out what she's on and get on it? And then we could have our life back. Because this doesn't just take away your own life. It takes away what you thought you'd build with your partner, your parents, your children, whatever it is. You can't, I can't walk my dog. I can't go with the oceans,

20:00two blocks away. So those things, I, I celebrate it because it's, it's life coming out of one of us, you know, and I love anything that is, you know, creative or intellect coming out of us because we don't know how much, you know, how much time any of us has which falls going to give a brain lead not to be so dark about it, but that this is the kind of thing we go through. Suicide as a psychiatrist is something that is not discussed in this disease enough, but I know that, you know, plenty of evidence of it. So the, the pain and what you, and the rigidity and all that, if she, if she can get out there and perform because all of the planning's been in place, I love it. I just, I wish it came with a, I had to do all this to get to here, or I'm on this therapy and it's look what I did, but I, I don't get that, nobody gets that vibe. You know, that's like, how come she's not talking about us? I think I get that a lot. And I'm like, I think it's because

21:07she's trying to sing, you know, that sounds silly. Maybe I didn't, you know, say it right, but I think if you have appalling and you have, and she's got millions of people and jobs and that depend on her, there is a fastness of the mind with this disease that I think can give you a sort of Jedi kung fu mind control to separate yourself from your body. And that was Dr. Aliya Khan, who likes Celine Dion, is living with stiff person syndrome. You're listening to the world service of the BBC. Once again, Donald Trump has got to the top of the news agenda by making just a brief statement. This time he said he would love to see a unified island. He's in Dublin. He was speaking to

22:10reporters there. And the question of Irish unity has been one of the most consequential in the UK for over a century. It's caused decades of violence. Well, I don't want to cross any problem, but I will value I'd love to see a unified. I have friends of both sides, great people. There are Irish people. How can they be bad, right? I'd love to see a unified. I think they're being great. A great feather in everybody's cap. Is that happening? It's going to happen eventually. Well, later he said the UK would have something to say about it, but I think it would be a great idea. Now just for those who are not across all this, the island of Ireland is divided now between British and Northern Ireland and then the sovereign country of Ireland. There was a peace agreement. There was decades of violence and then a peace agreement anchored by the so-called Good Friday Agreement. And amongst other things, that Good Friday Agreement, lots of compromises in it between those who want to stay with Britain and those who want a united island, but it laid out

23:12a process by which a united island could be achieved. That was one of the reasons that it was agreed to. Well, Katrina Perry is a BBC journalist currently in Dublin covering this Trump visit, but also reports on Washington politics. So just tell us you've watched it through the day, because this was said this morning and we've had the whole day. What kind of impact is it made? It's, it's not shock waves. Really, I would say across the island zone and indeed undashed the US where I'm normally based. President Trump was in Dublin, as he say, making those remarks. He's since relocated down to Duneberg here, which is where I am as well. I've tracked him all the way here. So if you hear some loud noise behind me, it's because there's a true party festival scene going on in this village here for the occasion of the President's visit and more so the Irish Gulf tournament that's being held here, the Irish open. But no one would have anticipated that President Trump was going to make these remarks on this visit. Any nervousness from the Irish

24:15government would have been more centered on would there be any sticky issues around trade, around tariffs, around the situation in the Middle East because the government of Ireland has taken quite a different approach to the government of the US when it comes to recognizing the state of Palestine, when it comes to a new law that's just about to be signed in, in fact, just two days' time, which would ban imports from the occupied territories from the Israeli settlement issue, this issue of Irish unity that anyone would have anticipated. President Trump raising an indeed when he those remarks, there were gas amongst the press pack who were watching it. It takes something to shock an Irish press pack, who've heard it all over the years. Do you think it was premeditated? Apparently it was the penultimate question, wasn't it, in a press conference, and he was asked about it and then made this remark. Do you think he planned to do it? I don't think so. No, I mean, the question came,

25:18actually, from a British journalist who had traveled over here for the visit of President Trump. And it's not something that we've really heard anything about from this administration. I mean, we would have heard things about it from past administrations, of course, particularly in those years when the Good Friday agreement was being negotiated. And President Trump had an envoy to Northern Ireland that he appointed in his first term of office. He doesn't have one yet in this term of office. And it's not something we hear the administration talking about, but we know that President Trump likes to take questions from journalists and he likes to give an answer to them, which is what he did here. And I do think probably it was something in the back of his mind. He has a lot of Irish American friends and many of those in the Irish American community themselves would be in favor of a unified Ireland. So maybe these are sorts of conversations that he's hearing or perhaps people had said to him in advance of his visit that this was something that they were thinking about, but quite unusual for him to say it in that forum. And not only that, about half an

26:23hour or so later when he appeared at the US ambassador's residence, he began his speech there by returning to those comments, kind of acknowledging that he suspected he was going to get into a bit of trouble for what he'd said, but again saying, but it wouldn't be very cool if there was a unified Ireland. There were the words he used. So he essentially doubled down on that sentiment. Yeah, okay, reactions quickly now. We'll run through them because there's London Dublin and Belfast. So London reaction? Yeah, we had a statement from the PM's office, basically just pointing back to the remarks at Andy Burnham. It's made just a couple of days ago saying, good Friday agreement still stands. The PM's views, there's no majority support for a referendum and until that happens, there won't be one. Belfast, and when I say Belfast, I'm really meaning unionist, that is people who want to stay with the UK want to stay with Britain in Northern Ireland. What attitude are they taking to this? Yeah, well, the main statement has come from the leader of the

27:25UK, the biggest unionist party there, Gavin Robinson also an MP for East Belfast, and he had put out a very strongly worded statement not long after President Trump made these remarks, basically saying that the future of Northern Ireland would be decided by the people of Northern Ireland, not Spike and Dublin or Washington. And he said he was confident in Northern Ireland, which continued to choose the UK. And he said as unionists were not interested in what he said was the destruction of our country by joining with the Irish Republic. And finally Dublin, reaction in Dublin. Similar to the London government, I would say, in terms of the good Friday agreement is the law of the land on this, and it's very clear in its sentiment that there wouldn't be any referendums or a border pole, as we call it here, on a unified Ireland until it was clear that that was the consensus, the wish of a vast majority of people on both sides of the border and the view from the Irish government, I was speaking to the Irish Foreign Minister,

28:25Helen McIntire earlier, was very much there firmly behind the good Friday agreement. And it doesn't really matter what any says, that's the law of the land and the law of the people. Okay, well Katrina Perry, thanks for that very good run through. I think you're obviously watching a golf tomorrow, so that'll be an easier day maybe. That was Katrina Perry in Ireland. Now Conor Murphy is a Sinn Fein senator, that's he's a former Northern Ireland economy minister, I should say, now in the Republic of Ireland's Parliament. And Sinn Fein was the political wing of the IRA that used to fight for Irish unity in a very bloody campaign in the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s. So now he has the US president articulating Sinn Fein's main demand, Irish unity. What does he think? It's a much broader demand than Sinn Fein. This has been a growing conversation in Ireland for some number of years. The Northern Ireland states, which we set up to have a permanent union majority that has ended some time ago. That has been repeated in electoral cycles. So there's a general consensus within Ireland that the unity project is moving at pace. Trump's comments,

29:31I think, reflect what has long been a bipartisan approach from politics in America, from both the Republicans and Democrats, both in support of the Irish peace process and the good Friday agreement, but also in support of constitutional change in Ireland. And so it's not a surprise, I think, that he reflects those politics. What we really want to see happen is the T-Shock, who was sitting beside Donald Trump, take the hint and start to become more proactive in terms of preparation for reunification. When you say the T-Shock, you're referring to the Irish Prime Minister calling on him to do those things now. I mean, you say it's not a surprise. I mean, the report is in the room gasped with surprise when he said this. The normal position of American presidents is just to say they support the Good Friday agreement. I mean, this is a change. It may well be a change in terms of the president's ordering words like that, but as I say, there are as long standing being bipartisan support from both Republicans and Democrats for Ireland, for the good Friday agreements and the peace process and also for the prospect of

30:31constitutional change. So I say in that regard, he is more than I'd be reflecting the broad politics of those in capital hell. I mean, one of the ironic things about this is that your party, Sinn Fein, has been opposing President Trump's visit, has been saying it would be protesting against it, and now find yourself perhaps in a slightly more opposition of him becoming a vocal supporter. Well, we have a long-standing disagreement with the people in the United States and the region of foreign policy. Their support for Ireland and the peace process, I think, was a great example of what American can do in a positive fashion around the world. That is assessing an end to conflict, promoting peaceful transition and change, promoting dialogue, and we have continuously argued with them over the years in between that that's the approach they should be taken in relation to Palestine and other conflicts around the world. How would you, in this mood of reconciliation in Ireland, reassure Unionist politicians, given what they just heard from the US President? Constitutional changes likely, we need to engage with that. Unfortunately, political unionism is in retreat in the other direction

31:36to take us back to the past, that are a very conflicted past. That's not what anyone wants. I think that's not what the vast majority of the people in the northern side of the border are indeed across the island want. And we want to ensure that whatever new constitutional arrangements we have, they reflect the principles of the good-friary agreement, which are about protection of rights and protection are made to ensure that human rights provisions are played to all. Just one last thought, Sinn Fein has long links with American politicians and you're pretty good at reading American politics. President Trump is famous for being able to win attention and headlines, maybe it's that. Or do you think, as Samus saying, it's to do with the midterms coming up in the US and sureing up Irish votes on the East Coast of which there are very many? I don't think it was an off-the-calf remark. I think you may have this part of our press conference that clearly was anticipated in the question. Whatever the intention behind that, I think, would remain a matter for President Trump. But I think it does reflect a sense both nationally and Ireland and internationally that constitutional changes on the horizon, that it is likely that it can be a very good thing for Ireland and that it needs to be managed in a peaceful and orderly

32:39and democratic way. And if the American administration continues to be behind that, then I think that would be a good thing. I would hope that they would recognize the success of that approach and begin to apply it in other parts of the world. Shinfane Senator Chris Murphy there. It may be a time of war in Ukraine, but cultural life still goes on. And this weekend sees the Leviv Book Forum take place. Artists from around the world have been taking part in what is the 33rd edition of the forum, some of it in person, some online. Now, organizing an event like this poses all sorts of challenges ranging from the logistical difficulties posed by the conflict with Russia to questions of what sort of content there should be given what's happening. Well, Ostap Slavinsky is the festival director. I've also been speaking with an author from Ukraine Sasha Dodshuk, but first of all, to Ostap Slavinsky, what has he been trying to achieve with this festival? The festival is part of the Book Forum, one of the oldest

33:41book events in Eastern Europe and the oldest book event in Ukraine. And it's very important that we organize the Book Forum here in the week of every year. Now, due to the very dramatic situation in Ukraine regarding Russian attacks on the Ukrainian warehouses with books, the literary events, readings became better represented. Are they being deliberately targeted? Or is this just the Russian response to the Ukrainian attack on that company that was the sort of Russian equivalent of Amazon? So warehouses are being hit and they have books in them. It's a complex question because approximately 90% of all warehouses in Ukraine have been damaged or completely destroyed. So, on one hand, we can consider that these attacks are not deliberately aimed at destroying books, but on the other hand, the other acts of Russian occupiers who deliberately attack Ukrainian

34:46cultural institutions and who destroy books immediately after occupying Ukrainian territories. These attacks are deliberate. Let's bring in Sasha Dodshuk, who's a writer in Ukraine, author of Apocalypse Baroque, tells from the Ukraine at war. And I guess that prompts my first question to Sasha, which has Ukrainian literature in the last few years become dominated by documenting what's happening? I would say that's fair since 2014 and since 2022, basically anyone who had any preclivenity towards writing started documenting their experiences in diary form, in memoir form, understanding very well that the events that are happening to us are of historic significance. Lately, we see that writers, authors, poets, turn to more experimental forms of writing, which tells us that enough time, unfortunately, has passed for people to process these experiences and to allow

35:52themselves thinking about them not only in terms of historical documentation, but also in terms of its value for world culture, that these events must be reflected upon in the world culture in all forms and not only as a raw material for some kind of intellectual interpretation. You are Russian first language, right? Ukrainian second language, is that right? Yes, that's right. I'm coming from east of the country. My first language was the Dit Russian and I switched to Ukrainian after the revolution of dignity in 2013-14 and the Russian invasion in 2014. There are laws now restricting the use of the Russian language in public spaces. How do you feel about those who, you know, have not made that transition that you've made and they're still Russian first language and they want to use Russian, but are finding it more difficult to do so? They're absolutely free to use Russian in family circle and among friends, but I believe that Ukrainian deserves the right

36:53place on governmental level and in all official structures of the Ukrainian state since it has been repressed so long and sidelined so long by all the regimes that try to dominate Ukraine for a long time. And I'll stabs the Vinsky. What attitudes does the forum take to Russian language publications? Now we can witness significant change on the Ukrainian book market. The changes started in more or less 2014 with government and limitations regarding the book import from Russia. Now, given the fact that Ukraine has no trade relations with Russia, we do not import Russian book production, but some publications in Russian, in Russian language, in Ukraine, which are printed, published and printed in Ukraine, they still appear. But due to Russian aggression, I would say that Russian books and Russian culture, Russian peaking culture in Ukraine has been significantly

37:58marginalized. I guess many book festivals around the world would consider it one of the responsibilities to protect minority languages and just wondering how you reflect on the use of Russian in Ukraine as part of Ukrainian culture. Like let's say there's a writer in a desert, totally Ukrainian person, but writing in Russian, a UOK with them expressing themselves in Russian and would you platform them in your festival? I'm absolutely convinced that we cannot intervene into a private sphere of the peoples. Many people who were born and who grew up in Russian speaking families, they keep on speaking Russian at home and in the streets and it is not limited and I would not even say that it evokes some kind of everyday aggression or everyday brutality. No, but regarding cultural scene, I would say that we can witness some kind of public consensus that

38:58Russian language is now inappropriate in the context and in the time of brutal Russian aggression against Ukraine. We don't have severe official restrictions regarding use of Russian language during cultural events, but this is kind of public agreement that we do not use Russian language during public events. Sasha, have you got any comment on that? It's obviously quite a difficult situation because I imagine a Russian language writer, Ukrainian living in a desert might be not so happy with that. I think that describing Russian as a minority language in Ukraine is not quite accurate because the Russian language was imposed on Ukrainians for so long during our history while Ukraine was dominated by the Russian Empire. Ukrainian was the suppressed language and you had to actually have some bravery and courage to use it in the public sphere or to publish in it.

39:59And I also want to emphasize that even those Ukrainians who are Russian speakers, they are actually bilingual, so even if Russian is the language of choice, they are not excluded from the cultural production that is currently dominated by the Ukrainian language. And that was author Sasha Dovshuk and she was speaking with the festival director in Leviv there. That was Ostap Slavinsky and the two of them bring us to an end of this edition of News Out. So thank you very much for listening and from Owen Bennett Jones here in London. Goodbye.