Trump says united Ireland would be a 'great thing'

0:00Hello and welcome to NewsHour from the BBC World Service live from London. This is Owen Bennett Jones. Well US President Donald Trump has said he would love to see a unified island he was speaking to reporters on his visit to Dublin. Well I don't want to cross any cross on this but I will tell you I'd love to see a unified. I have friends on both sides, great people. There are Irish people. How can they be bad, right? I'd love to see a unified. I think they're great. They're great friends and everybody's cap. Is that happening? It's going to happen eventually. You also said the UK would have something to say about it but I think it would be a great thing. Well it's another moment when politicians in London used to a lock tight relationship with Washington, realised just how much the world has changed. The island of Ireland is currently divided between British Northern Ireland and the sovereign country of Ireland and the status of Ireland has led to decades of violence although there

1:03is now a peace agreement in place secured by the Good Friday Agreement which we'll be hearing about now because Katrina Perry is a BBC journalist in Dublin also reports on Washington politics. So surprise that Trump said this. It's a huge surprise that he said this own and my colleague Chris Page who was outside farm Lee when he made those remarks said that a gasp went up around all of the reporters gathered there because you never know what President Trump is going to say particularly in these kind of freewheeling press conferences where he doesn't know what question he's going to be asked. But for the last or second to last question to be what he thought of a united Ireland and for him to weigh in and say that it would be a very good idea that he would love to see it that he thinks that it will eventually happen and acknowledging that the UK would have something to say about that which it has already. But repeating that this is what he wanted to see great shock and surprise there was no expectation that he would get into that.

2:05Did he understand the significance of what he was saying do you think? I think he did own because he said I might get into trouble for this and I have a lot of good friends on both sides of the argument. And then when he appeared a little bit later on at the home of the US ambassador to Ireland and Walsh and he was making an address to a gathered audience there he began that speech by addressing what he had just said indicating that perhaps someone had had little whisper in his ear maybe you need to clean up what you've said there and he acknowledged that this question was one of those questions he said no matter what you say there's no good answer. I think we're going to read about it tomorrow but then he repeated I do think it would be cool it would be very cool if there was a United Ireland and acknowledging he said making a joke oh I think half the room just left upon hearing me say that. Right now then the good Friday agreement sort of secures the peace deal that's currently in place in Northern Ireland and Ireland. So presumably all the politicians London Northern Ireland and Ireland are they all speaking

3:10for the good Friday agreement which has its own method of deciding whether or not Ireland should become unified? Absolutely it's very clear in the good Friday agreement the subject of the United Ireland and it can only come about when there are referendums held on both sides of the border where the people of this island vote in favour of a re-unification and that can only happen that poll can only be called for Northern Ireland by the Northern Ireland Secretary of State when there is a clear and obvious consensus that it is going to pass. Now that is not where opinion polls are at this point in time but it can sort of arbitrarily be details like that and that's why the Prime Minister Andy Birdham got into quite a bit of trouble on his first visit to Northern Ireland when he said a referendum was off the table because it's not for any individual government to decide it's to the people of the island to decide and we've already had some reaction coming in we've heard from the UK government that Prime Minister Bernam's view is that there is no majority public support for another

4:14referendum and until that changes there will not be one he says his view on the good Friday agreement still stands we've had a statement from the leader of the DUP in Northern Ireland Gavin Robinson and MP Freys East Belfast he says President Trump knows better than most that elections matter Northern Ireland's constitutional future will be decided by the people of Northern Ireland not by commentary in London Dublin or Washington Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom he says because that is the settled democratic will of the people and confront it will continue to choose the UK and the security it offers and then he concludes as unionists we are not interested in the destruction of our country by joining with the Irish Republic now we don't have a statement from the Irish government just yes because the teacher is still involved the Irish Prime Minister, Michal Martin still involved in those official engagements with Donald Trump at the moment but I do expect one will come and that was the BBC's Katrina Perry in Dublin oil prices were already

5:15topping $100 this week and that was before the hooties in Yemen seized control of the entire Red Sea coast enabling them to block Saudi oil tankers and also before drone attacks launched from Iraq for Saudi Arabia to shut down a crucial east west pipeline which reed has been using to bypass the strait of hormones so lots going on and Dr. Mohanad Salum is a non-resident senior fellow at the Middle East Council on Global Affairs he joins us live now from Doha in Qatar so Dr you've written to Red Nazqel you wrote about the militias in Iraq tell us about them and why they're targeting the pipeline. Great well thank you for having me militias this is not the first time they do it they did by the end of last July and which was responded the Saudis responded with targeting different militia sites in Iraq from north to south killing reportedly IRGC officers alongside Iraqi militia

6:19members as well as some hootie members and so what the Iranians and their allies in Iraq and also some hootie elements are trying to do is basically making sure that oil prices skyrocket because this is this pipeline is a critical for Saudis to transfer oil from the eastern province to the Red Sea now it has been hit in two places so this is an IRGC hit it is not an Iraqi militia hit but I think what is remarkable is the Saudis have not yet responded by targeting the militia sites and I think this is due to the fact that they have formed an intelligence committee with the Iraqi side and also a hotline and the Iraqi government is responded responded by a close and several border crossings with Iran so I would assume or this indicates that the Iraqis believe either some Iranian elements from the IRGC are still

7:21trapped in Iraq and they're trying to arrest them or some IRGC affiliated militia men are trying to flee the country to Iran. Interesting so but basically the side is relying now on the Iraqi authorities to close down the militia. Definitely but I think this is they would have given this is my understanding from the security framework that has been signed a few weeks back that they would give Iraqis some time I don't know what is the time I don't think it has been published or been said publicly but I would assume a week or so for the Iraqis to hand down or arrest those responsible for the attacks it's not clearly yet whether so these would do with attack these militias but it is interesting that they have held back so far. But basically I mean to summarize what you're saying Iranian proxies are still active in Iraq and Yemen and effective. Definitely they're still in Iraq and they have not been targeted in Iraq

8:26during the previous war since old wars since June 2025 and the Houthis as we see they are closing getting closer to the bubble men that sit right so what I see here is basically I think the conflict is going in that direction they're trying to drive up oil prices put in a pressure on the US to stop its war against Iran whether this would work or not I don't know maybe it would it might drag Saudis into the war if they respond this time around because militias in Iraq and I will end there they denied today any involvement in these attacks but Saudis have evidence obviously and they have submitted it to the Iraqi side. Thank you so much Dr. Mohanid Saloon well let's get an assessment now of whether this tactic will work. Christoph Rool is a senior research scholar at Columbia University Center on Global Energy Policy Expert on oil markets so Christoph Rool do you believe that oil prices will now go up I mean this is a significant amount of supply

9:29that's been closed off isn't it? Good afternoon yes it is and what is even more worrisome is that the fact that the wooties are closing in and there is this East Best Pipeline which was very helpful in alleviating some of the pressure which came from closing the straighter for most because it was in use before so this is a bringing Saudi oil to the to the Red Sea it was in use before but not fully utilized so when the straighter for most close three or four million barrels per day could be diverted there and this pipeline is now closed after these drone attacks but it's also of course in reach for these hotel rivers in Yemen and that will have certainty and impact on prices if that disturbance there continues and it's so hard to defend the pipeline isn't it I mean they're long and often above the surface I mean I think this is the big take away which we have to keep in mind it's obvious that a disruption like that brings up oil prices in the short term and we're getting used to these ups and downs in response to the military and political

10:30situation but recall that not too long ago the Secretary of the Treasury of the US has said that the straighter for most soon will disappear as a problem and will basically evaporate because of all these pipelines being built and attempts to create infrastructure to diversify also plies and in many that was never correct statement in many ways a pipeline is much more of a sitting duck than a boat or a ship which you can hide for a period of time in some other ocean. Pipelines are extremely vulnerable and there is no immediate solution for energy security for these oil transports from that part of the world. The only solution is a political one which guarantees some sort of calm in the attacks. Having said all this I mean we may now be in a new situation but when this all started there was much talk in the media and we had people on saying you know it's going to be a disaster in weeks the whole economies are going to collapse on the rest of it and it hasn't happened like that has it do we exaggerate the importance of the oil price?

11:31In some in some senses yes and it is also unlikely to happen right now if not going to be a sudden collapse there's two important safety valves which have been underestimated. One is for me the key issue which has changed since the big oil crisis in the 70s so that is the importance of oil has dramatically declined. You used to be when used to need about a barrel of oil to produce $1,000 versus global GDP imagine this is 158 liters that's a lot of oil that's down now by 60 percent that means we need less and less oil to keep the global economy going and university argument and then it means that a disruption which is as devastating as we've seen in the 70s and 78 after the Iranian revolution would now need a much much higher oil price to happen. Five when you calculate it is you will have to go to 300 to have a similar a similar effect on the economy. That is a very similar case we have just much more lila and the other is that we have China now

12:34we're sitting on so much strategic stocks that they could react and just decline their imports in response to humus and that has also helped in the short term. Okay very helpful to help us understand what's going on that was Christopher Rull who's with Columbia University formally with BP. It is just over a month since an avalanche on Broad Peak mountain on the Pakistan China border killed 10 climbers among them the British Nepalese record breaker and Netflix documentary subject near Malperger known as Nims while Mingmar Galdi Sherpa was the leader of the team which recovered perches body and also three others and actually in doing that he faced many difficulties escaping another avalanche himself also overhanging columns of snow and ice that were threatening to collapse and our Pakistan correspondent Caroline Davis has been talking to him.

13:37Every year thousands travel from around the world to climb and trek in the Karakora mountain range at its heart Broad Peak one of only 14 mountains in the world over 8,000 meters high. On the 30th of July Mingmar Galdi Sherpa known as Mingmar G was leading a group on nearby K2 he'd seen his friend Nims just days earlier. Originally competitors both trying to be the first to summit K2 in winter the two had bonded and decided to summit together in 2021 holding the record for their country in Nepal. On that day Mingmar G was expecting a call from his team on Broad Peak to say that they had reached the next camp it never came. We knew something was wrong by like three four like I don't like four four in the evening actually we wouldn't say like something wrong because sometimes people or sometimes the climbers they just turn up their video and don't speak much just to save the radio

14:37because we can only charge the radio at the base camp. But something had happened and Avalanche had funded down the slope 10 climbers were ascending at the time. With communication limited on the mountain it took hours for Mingmar G to know what had happened the following morning a drone operator was able to see the destruction. There were bodies which were carried all the way down at the base of the modern and he come up that nobody's looking alive. Mingmar G and his team left K2 and began a recovery mission. Perfect rescue team. Two bodies had already been found four more including Nims and Mingmar G's childhood friend Kilo was spotted up the mountain but on day one there was a setback. Another Avalanche moved some of the bodies to a new and more dangerous position with glacial ice blocks hanging precariously to the left and right as the days continued

15:41in the sun the snow began to melt. The small team reached the bodies, clipping them onto ropes moving them down the mountain the recovery complete. Mingmar G still thinks about the moment he saw the bodies of his friends. I feel like they were still kind of like alive waiting for me so I told them okay I'm here to take you guys back home. When you did reach Nims' body did you find anything that would indicate what had happened with the Avalanche? Nims said his cover is fish and he had cover his whole face with his jacket and he was yesterday holding his jacket. I mean it means like when they saw the Avalanche I think they tried to make themselves safe. They didn't felt that much almost like 500 meters when they when they fell down they hit each other. If they were not on the rope maybe was it that Nims and Kilo they might have survived. Four bodies were recovered from the mountain that day. Nims, Kilo, Nims

16:42Sherpa from Nepal and Wang Zhong from China. The bodies of Pakistani climbers Ahel Saki and Malawi Gis from the US were found days later. The body of Nguang Sherpa from Nepal still remains on the mountain. Nims' family have said that they are deeply grateful to everyone involved in the search and recovery effort calling Mingmar G in his team. Extraordinary. The Avalanche, the rescue, has changed Mingmar G. He's no longer sure of how long he'll keep climbing. On his phone, videos, memories of climbs and celebrations, his favourite the day they finally reached the top of K2 in winter. When we were there together singing our national anthem, Kilo is there, Nims is there. Biggest bond started from Thirabas. We had the biggest bond from from Winter K2. And that report from Caroline Davis in Pakistan.

17:48The 9-11 attacks killed nearly 3,000 people and people of many faith, the victims included Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus and Buddhists. The perpetrators though were all Muslim and attitudes to Islam in the US did start changing that day. A pure research centre survey this spring found that 43% of US adults said Muslims are less patriotic than other Americans. Now that compares with 92% of Muslims who say they are proud to be American. Quite a disparity. Well, Amarne Al-Kataba is an American author, activist and tech entrepreneur. She was 9 years old when 9-11 happened and went on to found Muslimgirl.com, a blog for Muslim women. And she joins us now. Why did you set up the blog, tell us? I grew up under the shadow of post 9-11 Islamophobia where most of the time people that weren't Muslim were speaking on behalf of Islam and especially Muslim women. And the narrative that because Muslim

18:51women are oppressed, we should be formulating all these foreign policies in Muslim nations that ultimately disproportionately impacted Muslim women and children more than anyone else. And so that lack of a narrative for our voices in the media around us and against all of the weight of the propaganda was the reason why I felt it necessary for us to create a space for us to reclaim that narrative and to speak for ourselves. The fact is despite efforts like yours, the attitudes towards Muslims in America are hardening, aren't they? I mean, there's more anti-Muslim feeling in these polls today than there was six months after 9-11, it's quite striking. It is and it's very sad. I think that there has been a resurgence of anti-Muslim sentiment that unfortunately many polls have seen far exceed even those immediately after 9-11. And they are in large part fueled by the rhetoric used by our lawmakers and by politicians.

19:53Obviously politicizing these divisive tactics for political gains and political purposes and ultimately bearing down the way on innocent people and really creating a lot of that rhetoric among different communities. Okay, so you're blaming politicians and opinion formers for this. But do you also discuss the role of those Muslims in America and elsewhere around the world who do support them is a small minority but who do support violent Shahad? Do you think they're playing a role in the causing these clashes and differences? I think even that question in and of itself really poses what the issue is. When the media tries to hone in on a number of individuals to paint a picture of one of the largest religions in the entire world, over a billion people globally as if they're one homogenous group and that we're all responsible for each other's actions and by that logic can be collectively punished or blamed for the actions of individuals. That is a tremendous,

20:57tremendous harm and has been one of the primary forces behind a lot of the anti-Muslim sentiment that we see today. But when you say that homogenizes, it obviously doesn't, if I'm in my question saying it's a very small number of people who think these things, that's quite the opposite of what you just basically said that I said. It doesn't warrant the question then. I'm not sure why any Muslim would be asked to speak on behalf of individuals outside of their own actions. Not doing that. Just asking whether you discuss it on the blog and whether it plays a role. I think that for the longest time, especially after 9-11, Muslims globally were expected to denounce violence, to apologize for the violence, to make statements asserting their patriotism, like you said, and it's a burden that's not placed on any other religion. Okay, thanks very much. That was Amani Al-Katar Baba. And welcome back to Newsr, the right-wing anti-establishment party in the UK. Reform UK

22:03has received a nearly 50 million dollar donation from a British cryptocurrency billionaire, Bendello. It's a record for a UK party. Bendello said he did it because he wanted a fair, fight and level playing field. The mainstream party is not so sure that that kind of donation will ensure the playing field is level, but the government is also talking about capping political donations, which in turn has been described as the establishment keeping outsiders out. Well, the BBC's Nomiya Ikbal has been covering this. Lots of political parties do have wealthy donors, so why is this one getting so much attention? I think it's because the scale of it is extraordinary. Yes, there's lots of wealthy donors in British politics, but 36 million pounds. That's the biggest single political donation in UK history, but I think also the timing of it. It comes at a time where it's very sensitive, politically, for reform. They're being massively scrutinised over their funding, over their finances, and then you've got the government that's considering whether the

23:04rules around very large political donations should be restricted. So I think all of that makes it very extraordinary. Tell us a bit about Bendello, the donor. He is Ibrahim Shabilina. He's from Sheffield. He was living in Hong Kong. He says he's now moving back in the process of moving back to the UK. He's the co-founder of this cryptocurrency exchange, BitMex. He also pleaded guilty in the US to failing to maintain adequate anti-money laundering controls. He was later given this full unconditional pardon by Donald Trump. That was last year. And he has given this interview to the Daily Telegraph. I'll just pull out one of the quotes, which I think is really interesting. He says, unlike the people who express more concern for the health of our democracy while doing everything they can to keep it as a cartel, I want a fair fight and a level playing field. Now he regularly donates to reform. And he was going to donate one million a month to reform. But because of those potential rules, restricting donations, he's decided to frontload the cash before the next general

24:07election, which could be 2029. And so he's essentially saying to reform, he's the money, showers that you are a government in waiting, which reform says it is. So tell us a bit about what the party leader, Nigel Farage, has said about the donation. He said he was honoured and humbled by the confidence that he has shown in reform. And he says the party's priorities now to use that money and essentially build a detailed programme for government. He says the money will help to attract skills and the sort of talent that they need. The sums of money involved in UK politics are tiny compared to let's say US politics. Why do parties need this kind of money? Because there are so many restrictions on British parties spending money in a election campaign. What would this money be useful? If you look at reform UK, they have made the point that they are not the established party. So they don't have the kind of the political machinery that other parties have. And so they need the money for things that are beyond just advertising for an election. They need staff, they need

25:10to organise so much of what requires them to run. Policy research. Yeah, policy research, all that sort of stuff, which they off raising the money for. And that was Nomea Igbal talking about reform UK. It wasn't long ago that the coverage from Ukraine suggested that it was gaining the upper hand. It's long-range drone attacks on Russia were making an impact. And the gradual loss of territory in Ukraine seemed to have been slowed or even halted. But now it is Ukraine that seems to be again on the back foot with real fears about the winter ahead. The steady destruction of Ukrainian infrastructure is going to make it hard to manage the cold. And the BBC's diplomatic correspondent James Lansdale has been speaking to Alexander de Kru, head of the UN Development Agency. And he's been warning of the change in targets of Russia's latest attacks. Civil infrastructure is in a very systematic way being targeted. And this is

26:12petrol stations. It's shopping malls. It's business centres. But it's especially energy infrastructure, energy transmission lines. There is absolutely no justification for that. Well James Lansdale joins us live now from Kiev. James, I mean, I'm surprised this is new to be honest, because I thought the Russians have been attacking energy targets for a long time. They have, however, at the end of August, the tactics changed. They're now attacking around the clock. And it's not just energy. It is, as Mr. Kru said, it's across the board and there are newer targets. And so what we're seeing at the moment is a Russian attack that the Ukrainians are struggling to deal with because the Russians are using newer and faster jet-powered drones. And at the moment they go so fast that the Ukrainians intercept us, cannot take them out.

27:13And that means that more of these drones are getting through. And so the Russians are broadening their targets. And so, as you heard, they're going not just for energy, but also for businesses, petrol stations, warehouses, factories. And people here have noted that the target, very much the sort of the revenue generating part of the economy, there's a real cash crisis in the Ukrainian government at the moment, a real budget deficit. They're running out of money fast because their revenues are down because of the Russian attacks. At the same time, the cost of fighting the war is rising. And all the time the Russians are slowly plugging away at all those energy plants that were damaged last winter that the Ukrainians are trying to repair. But the repairs are being slowed down by the fact that these attacks now are happening around the clock. And what Mr. Kru said is there is a genuine sense now that if these strikes on the energy plants continue and that the transmission network in particular, then potentially Ukraine could

28:18be facing a humanitarian crisis. The worst case scenario and will do everything to avoid that is that at some point access to energy and electricity would be severely damaged, which means that access to heating would be severely damaged. And that, for example, water systems and sewage systems would stop functioning. With the temperatures that you would get here, that would lead to circumstances which would be really close to humanitarian catastrophe. Alexander to Kru, so James, are you picking up real anxiety about the winter ahead? Yeah, no, there is real anxiety. If you talk to people here, they say it's like a sort of blanket of anxiety because they're still recovering from the last winter, which was really, really difficult and bitter. And they just have this sense this time, it's going to be much worse. If you talk to the energy networks here, they say, look, we've done a lot of preparation from last winter, we've

29:21made a, we've learnt a lot of lessons, we've decentralized our network, we've got a lot of plans B and C and D, we've got other sources of generation, we've stopped piles and gas, and also crucially, because of the increased, the scaled increase in the Russian attacks. What that means is, Ukraine's economy is smaller, that means the demand for energy is going to be less. But at the same time, you know, I've been hearing talking to the ministers of the record, and one of them said that the current estimate is that Ukraine is going to suffer a 10 billion dollars worth of destruction at the hands of Russia, this winter. And the potential, if that comes to pass, then we could well be in the sort of scenario that Mr. Kru was pointing out, where people just basically say, look, we can't live here anymore because with their instead of cold, we don't get water, we don't have surge. And then you get population flight. James Landell, thank you. Well, it's a time of war in Ukraine, but cultural life still goes on,

30:23and the Leviv book forum has been on in over the weekend, and I've been speaking to the organiser, Ostap Slavinsky, and also to a Ukrainian author, Sasha Dovshuk. But first of all, to Ostap Slavinsky, what's he been trying to achieve with this book festival? The festival is part of the book forum, one of the oldest book events in Eastern Europe, and the oldest book event in Ukraine. And it's very important that we organize the book forum here in the Viva every year, despite the beginning of the Russian-Ikrainian war in 2014, and despite the COVID pandemic, and despite the full scale Russian invasion in 2022. Now, due to the very dramatic situation in Ukraine regarding Russian attacks on the Ukrainian warehouses with books, which resulted in destruction of more than 13 million of books this year,

31:27the literary events, readings, became better represented. Are they being deliberately targeted, or is this just the Russian response to the Ukrainian attack on that company that was the sort of Russian equivalent of Amazon? So warehouses are being hit, and they have books in them. It's a complex question, because approximately 90% of all warehouses in Ukraine have been demoted or completely destroyed warehouses with books are among those warehouses destroyed. So on one hand, we can consider that these attacks are not deliberately aimed at destroying books, but on the other hand, the other acts of Russian occupiers who deliberately attack Ukrainian cultural institutions and who destroy books immediately after occupying Ukrainian territories. These attacks are deliberate. Let's bring in Sasha Dobshik, who's a writer in Ukraine, author of

32:30Apocalypse Baroque, tells from the Ukraine at war. And I guess that prompts my first question to Sasha, which is, has Ukrainian literature in the last few years become dominated by documenting what's happening? I would say that's fair since 2014 and since 2022, basically anyone who had any proclivity towards writing started documenting their experiences in diary form, in memoir form, understanding very well that the events that are happening to us are of historic significance. Lately, we see that writers, authors, poets, turn to more experimental forms of writing, which tells us that enough time unfortunately has passed for people to process these experiences and to allow themselves thinking about them not only in terms of historical documentation, but also in terms of its value for world culture, that these events must be reflected upon in the world culture in all

33:36forms and not only as a raw material for some kind of intellectual interpretation. You are Russian first language, right? Ukrainian's second language, is that right? Yes, that's right. I'm coming from the east of the country. My first language was the Dit Russian and I switched to Ukrainian after the revolution of Dignity in 2013-14 and the Russian invasion in 2014. There are laws now restricting the use of the Russian language in public spaces. How do you feel about those who've, you know, not made that transition that you've made and they're still Russian first language and they want to use Russian, but are finding it more difficult to do so? They're absolutely free to use Russian in family circle and among friends, but I believe that Ukrainian deserves the right place on governmental level and in all official structures of the Ukrainian state since it has been repressed so long and sidelined so long by all the regimes that try to dominate Ukraine for a long time. And all steps, Lvinsky, what attitudes does the forum take to

34:39Russian language publications? Now we can witness significant change on the Ukrainian book market. The changes started in more or less 2014 with some governmental limitations regarding the book import from Russia. Now given the fact that Ukraine has no trade relations with Russia, we do not import Russian book production, but some publications in Russian language in Ukraine which are printed published and printed in Ukraine, they still appear. But due to Russian aggression, I would say that Russian books and Russian culture, Russian speaking culture in Ukraine has been significantly marginalized. I guess many book festivals around the world would consider it one of the responsibilities to protect minority languages and just wondering how you reflect on the use of

35:42Russian in Ukraine as part of Ukrainian culture. Like let's say there's a writer in a desert, totally Ukrainian person, but writing in Russian, are you okay with them expressing themselves in Russian and would you platform them in your festival? I'm absolutely convinced that we cannot intervene into a private sphere of the peoples. Many people who were born and who grew up in Russian speaking families, they keep on speaking Russian at home and in the streets and it is not limited and I would not even say that it evokes some kind of everyday aggression or everyday brutality. No, but regarding the cultural scene, I would say that we can witness some kind of public consensus that Russian language is now inappropriate in the context and in the time of brutal Russian aggression against Ukraine. We don't have severe official restrictions regarding

36:48use of Russian language during cultural events, but this is kind of public agreement that we do not use Russian language during public events in times of Russian Ukrainian war. So Sasha, have you got any comment on that? It's of course a difficult situation because I imagine a Russian language writer, Ukrainian living in a desert might be not so happy with that. I think that describing Russian as a minority language in Ukraine is not quite accurate because the Russian language was imposed on Ukrainians for so long during our history while Ukraine was dominated by the Russian Empire. Ukrainian was the suppressed language and you had to actually have some ravor in courage to use it in the public sphere or to publish in it. And I also want to emphasize that even those Ukrainians who are Russian speakers, they are actually bilingual. So even if Russian is the language of choice, they are not excluded from the cultural production that is currently

37:53dominated by the Ukrainian language. And that was Ukrainian author Sasha Dozhuk and also speaking there, Ostap Slavinsky, who is organizing the book forum that's been taking place in Leviv over the weekend. You're listening to the World Service of the BBC.