Apple Unveils iPhone Duo, Muse AI Agent, Keith Rabois Joins | David Cahn, Mikey Shulman, David Perell, Jim Reilly, Fletcher Richman

0:00You're watching TVPN. Today is Wednesday, September 9th, 26th. You have to tell us how many days we've got to Christmas. Because we are live from the TVP in Elterdam, the Temple of Technology, the Port of Spanis, the capital capital. How many days until Christmas? 106 days until Christmas. No doubt. Really makes it feel like it's going faster. I feel like it's just the other day we were at 112. It's flying. It's flying by start shopping. Just do it. Yeah, and you actually have time to, again, like we talked about yesterday, remove your flooring, floorboards, all that stuff, and just dig straight down and install a permanent Christmas tree. Don't just get ready for Christmas, 26. You're ready for next year. You also need to start thinking about gift giving. It's harder than ever to find good gifts. The best gift you can give someone is helping them save time and money. Get them on a ramp. That's right. You can save money. You save both.

1:00You use corporate cards, bill payments, accounting, and a whole lot more. Mom, I got you a corporate card that you're going to love. Anyway, pull this up. Pull this up. iPhone Duo is going to be a lot of Christmas trees. But what's more important than the new one? Pull up this graphic. Pull up this graphic. I was hoping that Apple would announce this today. If you zoom in, you can see the tree is actually, the house is actually built around the tree. Yeah. OK. Yeah. Stop building a home and adding a tree to it. Yeah. And find a Christmas tree and build a house around it. Exactly. Yes, that's the Christmas spirit. Our mutual friend, John, sent this to me this morning. He's on top of it. Cool. Let's do it. Well, Apple has announced the iPhone Duo. They're foldable phone. We'll pull up some video and react to a little bit of it. I, separately, right away, how is this going to impact screen time?

2:03Does your screen time go twice as fast? Because you're actually locked in on two screens? Should you do pixel-adjusted screen time too? If you're watching a laptop versus an Apple watch, if I spend an hour in Apple watches, that like 15 minutes on the laptop, on the triple monitor setup, getting triple the screen time? We have the AirPods with the cameras. They didn't do that. They didn't do that. They haven't announced those. I don't think they're going to. Not yet. Not yet. But when that comes, that could potentially help you add to your screen time by tracking screens out in the real world you're seeing. True. Aren't getting picked up. True. Yeah, digital billboards. That should go in your screen time. Eventually, it's going to be 24, 7 screen time. Everyone's looking at a screen. Everywhere. There's our screen everywhere. You're looking at the windshield of your car. That's the screen. Can we pull up some real pictures of the Duo? Here it is. Here it is, the Duo. So in this video, there is no crease. I'm sure the YouTube tech reviewers

3:04will be hunting in all different lighting for creases. But it feels like Apple waited long enough to avoid a crease whatsoever. So you will get no crease in your eyes. That is crazy. Sit in there. Boom. It's cool. It's cool. I think this is going to sell like hawkakes. I think people are ready to spend. It's going to be like 2 grand, maybe 3 grand, when you max it out. I think the Apple buyer, the Apple fanboy, is ready for something that actually is a flex beyond. Like a slight upgrade, you paid 30% more for the Pro. This says you pulled out the big box. You dropped two green screen. Well, and that's been the thing. The relative to how much value you get out of a phone. phones have always been incredibly cheap. Even the highest price. You spend more time on your phone than you do in your car in your cars 10 times the price of your phone always. That's, if not more. And so I think this will sell very well. It'll be interesting to see if anyone,

4:04if any new apps come from this, if people need to redesign stuff. We're having Mikey from Suno on the show later today. And Suno has an app that's really full featured for iPhone. You can make songs. You can scroll a feed of other people's songs. But you do have to pop over to desktop if you want to get into their composer and actually deconstruct the song and shift around different pieces of the song. And then you get a sort of garage band interface. What's his plan? Is he thinking, OK, this is going to sell enough that I need to re-engineer my app for a different flow? You've seen even using a lot of normal iPhone apps on iPads, it usually just doesn't feel quite right. It's scrolling. So I think there'll be a couple UI, UX opportunities, challenges, both interesting little bezel there where you can see the screen is curved, but it's on a blocked out, squared off edge there in the center.

5:06Two cameras on the back, one on the front. Leaving room for the iPhone Duo Pro with five cameras or something like that. Yeah. Yeah, really it really shows that the phone seems to be at least the iPhone is certainly in its final form, right? This feels like the biggest step forward in a long time. And yet it does absolutely nothing new for you. A ray review. Until the new paper that's sold out, it's moderately exciting because it's moderately exciting because everyone's addicted to their phone. It's like cool, new screen. But it does nothing new for you. It doesn't move humanity forward anyway at all. Jordi, you're going to be able to watch two reels at once. And they're both going to be vertical. You think so? Yeah. What do you mean? From the demo that I saw, it looked like you put the video up top and then I messaged or I messaged. Well, that's because that was a horizontal video. I don't think you'll be able to open two copies of Instagram at the same time.

6:07No, I think it'll be more like the iPad OS where you can have different windows. Do you think you'll be able to do YouTube shorts and Instagram reels side by side? Ideally, hopefully. Ideally. Brain-Rot, final boss over here once. And then you can have the third one on the back. Well, it's definitely going to be better for looking at charts on public.com, investing for those who take it seriously. They've got stocks, options, bonds, crypto, treasury, and more with great customer service. What is Apple actually doing today in the markets? Brian says this could literally 2X GDP. Does the market like this? I mean, all this has been priced in, but let's check on Apple. Down 1.27% today, down 5% over the last five days, but sort of flat on the month. So it's exciting to see John Turner's get a big win, like early. Like first thing as the CEO, first major Apple event,

7:09and it's an entirely new product, the foldable phone, something that's been rumored for years. They didn't team up just to do a mind- I'm not going to re-freak. Exactly. Yeah, it's exciting that he got to come out strong with this. And it's also less of a risk than the Apple Vision Pro. If they'd thrown him there, then he'd be remembered. Oh, his first thing was sort of a flop. Yeah, I think this is going to be a hit, even though it's just a hit or at all. I think it's going to sell very well. I think a lot of people are going to buy him for a variety of reasons. But I think it's just a good way to kick off a really strong decade-long run. Hopefully four decades. Couldn't make it to 95 in the seat, but Ternis, I think he got it, what it takes. I want to see Ternis running this place. So you're 100% getting to do it? Yeah, I think I'll get it. I'll need to feel how it feels in my hand. But at one point, I was considering carrying an iPad mini

8:10as my daily driver phone, because I was like, so they come with Wi-Fi. Six, eight. Six, eight, so I have big pockets. And so it would actually fit my pocket. And I don't like the phone feature of the phone. I don't like getting phone calls. So you lose that because it doesn't have cellular connections. So it doesn't have a foot, so you can never call me. And it's not like you need a phone number for anything else besides calls, like logging into pretty much any service. Yeah, you can do two-factor on an actual authentication app. I think you can get by. You might need to have a Mac mini hooked up somewhere that has a phone number attached to it that can route you to factor codes or something. But it did seem doable. Or you know, you just check your phone, your actual phone with the phone number at home later. But every day, you just have this iPad mini that you pull out. It has a cellular connection. I don't know that it can actually get phone calls, but it has a cellular connection. So you can get data while you're out and about.

9:11So you can be out in the world and scroll real data. What else do you need? You don't need to make a phone. Big data. I don't know. Yeah, I mean, it really comes down to the look. That the phone is lighter, thinner, it's not lighter, it's not thinner. It is probably faster. It's bigger. This is the opposite of your meme. Typically they come out and they say, it's lighter, thinner, faster, thinner, faster, fit thinner, faster, 12 times. It's the best iPhone ever. This is actually a different direction. This is a good one. Is this a response to your joke? Here's something. Yeah. Would you rather search, work, and I message, or be able to get the duo? Search, work, and I message, what do you do? To like search, and I message, you want that to work. Yeah. Personally, I would be excited about functional features of the core software that I use with the iPhone. Yeah. Among many other things. But Kate over on X says, mentally ready for my iPhone

10:14to start being slow, laggy, and having a bad battery. You have that to look forward to. I was listening. So did they also updated the normal iPhone? Is that right? Did you watch a little bit of the earlier keynote? Yeah, I mean, there was a little bit. That one is thinner, lighter, faster, better, stronger, all the different things. They updated Apple and Tulled in Sponge. So there was like all the things that I thought they haven't launched yet. I thought this was the launch of the series. It's actually going to go out now. Correct. Yeah. This was in the launch video. And also the old iPhone or not the old iPhone. But the new normal iPhone, 18, they were like, oh, the battery is much better. So all those things that Jordi, they like said about the new iPhone. Which one do I have? Because I got mine last year, I believe, about 26. No, 17. I have a 17. So they launched the 18, which is the same form factor, just lighter thinner, faster, better, stronger. Correct. OK. But it looks exactly the same. From what I, I mean, I'm sure some people can tell

11:14difference. OK. OK. But yeah, better chip or something. So I don't know. Maybe you'll notice it with Apple Intelligence. I wonder if there's any gated features. Because I know that there are some initially some gated features for the pro models. You need more memory for the on-device stuff. I don't know. It'll be interesting. I'm excited to get it in hand to see how it works. I don't, it might be too much to open that thing up. I'm thinking like, it's pretty easy just to play. No, for you, it's great. Because you're such a newspaper guy. I do like a newspaper. Put your feet up on the desk and fold your phone open. I'm scrolling. Yeah. Something that might make sense. I don't know. I don't know. I was reflecting on Steve Jobs. I saw a viral video about Steve Jobs predicting chat GPT in 1985. And the video is incredible. Because he arrives to this talk. He's giving a talk at a university on the future. It was just Steve Jobs, view the future in 1985.

12:15And he arrives on a helicopter with an entourage. And they all get out of this helicopter. And they go into this. It's amazing. I'm really not going to do that. But more of a, where is it? King in the castle. King in the castle. Because the video context, context, context plays in the castle. But we can, but we can probably play this, this video here. Let me, let me pull this up. I'll send it in. Because you got to watch Steve Jobs in 1985. Perdict modern AI. Pretty well. What is that sound? Is that idea? Yes. Plus, or is that the sound board? You got a new, like just like vibe chatter in the background? Anyway, while we pull that up, let me tell you about Railway. Railway is the all-in-one intelligent driver. I'll provide her. Use your favorite agent to deploy web app servers, databases, and more while Railway. Automatically takes care of scaling, monitoring, and security. So yeah, let's play Steve Jobs predicts chat GPT in 1985. Because I had a bunch of thoughts based on this. I know I Aristotle.

13:15And I read this. I became immensely jealous. And I think I would have enjoyed that a great deal. So Pa's, he's the lead in to this. What is the second video that's playing? I think you guys have two videos playing. He's saying, I'll just read the transcript. He says, did you know that Alexander the Great's tutor for 14 years was Aristotle? When Alexander the Great had a question, he would just go to Aristotle. I think we can play the clip from the beginning now. Let's see. Who Alexander the Great's tutor was for about 14 years? You know, Aristotle. And I read this. I became immensely jealous. And I think I would have enjoyed that a great deal. And through the miracle of the printed page, I can at least read what Aristotle wrote without an intermediary.

14:18And maybe if there's a professor, they can add to that. But at least I can go directly to the source material. And that is, of course, the foundation upon which our western civilization is. Losing the printing process. But I can't ask Aristotle a question. I mean, I can. I won't get an answer. And so, my mom is. Perfect. My mom is that in our lifetimes, we can make a tool of a new kind, of an interactive kind. And so my hope is someday, when the next Aristotle is alive, we can capture the underlying worldview of that Aristotle in a computer. And someday, some student will be able to not only read the words Aristotle wrote, but ask Aristotle a question. And get an answer. And that's what I hope that we can do.

15:20So crazy. He's just like, we got to compress all the data down and be able to give it a conversational interface. Large language models with a simple interface that anyone can use. It's a crazy, crazy prediction 40 something years ago. And I mean, there's so many interesting details about the video. Steve Jobs is probably the most famous techno optimist, the most successful techno optimist, the bicycle for the mine quote, that one continues to hit constantly. But you can see his excitement every time he gives a keynote, he'll just be on stage like Giddily testing Garageband. But his delivery there, too, is something really, really special. I mean, you notice that, right? Where he asks a hypothetical question, then, you know, well, I could ask, but I wouldn't get an answer. And he kind of like lets the laugh line kind of land and lets the audience. He is basically the Mark German of CEOs.

16:21Mark German is the goat. Yes. Journalist. Yes. And he is the greatest founder CEOs ever. It's just really, really cool timing. It tries to took you that long to go. Because I thought you were talking about Mark German's comedic timing, which is fantastic. Mark German's delivery of Apple. Truly, he truly has Apple intelligence and his delivery channel. That's true. That's true. So yeah, I mean, you can see Ben Thompson's called this out a few times. But when Steve Jobs introduces Garageband, he is just so excited about this product. You can see him in this one video, introducing Garageband 1.0 with John Mayer, which is really cool. He has John Mayer come out and just like play some stuff on the guitar. And then I want to show you loops. And I'm going to show you what a non-multiple engine can do. And he's just like chilling there on this computer, on this stool, using this tool. And just doing a live demo.

17:22And if you scroll forward about halfway, you'll see John Mayer comes in and play some songs toward the end. There you go. It's a British invasion. He's just having fun. And so with the power of modern LLM, you can ask, you can ask, you know, an AI version of Steve Jobs, what would he think about AI? I did. And I think the answer is somewhat interesting. He said, probably yes, with very strong opinions about what makes AI worth using. That's speculation. But his own words give us a surprisingly good basis for it. In 1985, Jobs Imagine Computers capturing thinkers underlying ideas so that a student could interact with them. You could actually ask Aristotle a question. He was already enthusiastic about something resembling a central promise of conversational AI. But his enthusiasm would come with three demands in this hypothetical Steve Jobs analysis.

18:22One, you got to give people new abilities, learning, designing, composing, building, would probably excite him most. Two, you have to make it effortless. I'd expect him to push for AI that understands what you want with minimal instruction. And three, you have to make something excellent. I suspect he'd value AI's ability to help someone realize an original vision much more than its ability to produce enormous quantities of generic content. He would be anti-slop, but pro AI. Aristotle also had an interesting AI taken in this imagined LLM version of Aristotle. He'd care more about what AI does to our character than how intelligent becomes. The conclusion of this is Aristotle would favor AI as an instrument of human flourishing, while resisting the idea that a life requiring less human effort is automatically a better life. You must continue to create, you must continue to work, you will be unsatisfied if the response is more than you consume. Yeah, exactly.

19:23Wherever. Exactly. AI that strengthens our ability is what's important. And so when I was going back and forth with you about was like, it seems pretty clear that Steve Jobs would be excited about AI or some form of AI. But what would the reaction to that be in the modern era? Because I tend to think that there would have been the natural cycle of reaction because of there's a whole host of things, political polarization, economic stagnation, wealth inequality, negativity bias, and social media. There's so many different incentives that the desire, the impetus to tear someone down is unavoidable. And so I think we would be in this weird era where a lot of people would be excited about that particular vision for AI. And yet there would still be viral videos complaining about the latest Steve Jobs keynote.

20:23But what do you think? Because you've called for the Steve Jobs of AI, someone who's an optimist, someone who talks about empowering humanity, focus on human flourishing, agrees with the Aristotelian philosophy around AI. But what would the actual reaction be? Is that actually a panacea? Or would it fall by the wayside? Like all other attempts at positivity seem to have fallen by the wayside? Yeah. I've come around to the technology itself being fundamentally scary, and though it's very cool. And then you factor that in with certain actors that are trying to position it as even more scary, that maybe it is inherently. And I think even if we still had Steve with us, who would still be a mess. And he might be nicely counter-positioned, but it doesn't stop other people from poisoning.

21:24Maybe not. Poisoning the discourse. What do these p-dume would be? Over under 10%. Like 1%. Probably. He seems like a 1%. 1%. He's the 1%. What did Joanna Stern have to say about the Apple launch? There's a video here you wanted to read out. New feature called Live Rewind. What is this feature? Let's plot it. Let's see it. Hi, welcome. Today's sessions are the Erlin tomato BLT. Caesar salad, colg, sel, lentil soup, chicken alfredo, the smoked salmon, and the avocado tartar. Just don't want to press the digital crown. In Live Rewind, trans-ribe school is just said. You can ask Siri about the content of that. What if you can't read? We're going to be doing it in a few minutes. This is great for when you're trying to recall book recommendation. OK. In Colleagues' Brilliant idea, or something you didn't hear the first time. The next audio intelligence feature will help you remember key moments from daily conversations

22:25to give you more presents. So is it just recording everything? Because that seems genuinely useful, probably not in the... I mean, Joanna Stern, her take years. I don't know. Maybe just ask the waitress to repeat herself. That's a good point. But if you're actually talking to someone, like your lawyer is breaking down a contract and you forget which part of the contract that the lawyer flag does important for you to go dig into and get to the bottom of having a transcript there makes sense. And you could ask the lawyer to repeat themselves, but it costs 1,000 bucks an hour. So maybe you do want to just transcribe it. I don't know. What do you think about this? If I was going to be there a lot of... There's got to be some people out there that are thrilled and incredibly excited about this new feature. And I would be surprised if there's more than 100 of them globally. But there's some... It just feels like...

23:28It's just hard. This whole event is hard to be excited about anything at all. A lot of these demos, they get harder and harder to feel natural and human. Like the GarageBand example is like pretty... It's so much easier to make it look cool because you're there with John Mayer and you're imagining, OK, I got a buddy who can play drums, but I can't play bass. So I'm going to get GarageBand to fill in the bass digitally. And I needed to compose everything together. I don't really have an alternative. It's super logical like just asking someone to repeat themselves. Anyway, it's got to be a tough job working through the... How do we showcase this in a non-black mirror? As semi-analysis as how we feel on the crease. Are we feeling... How have I been able to get my eyes on the crease? No, it feels like whatever they did in the photography...

24:30Oh, and that's the one thing you would expect from them entering the foldable market. You would expect them to... They are not going to get... There's not going to be a crease on this thing. I will be shocked if there's a visible crease whatsoever. Is there... Arthur from Vib just resigned today? That's a joke. Oh, that's a joke? It's obviously a joke. Read it out. It's you brought it out. Sorry. I spent the last three years during TV ad performance at both Vib and Walmart. Neither company is acting responsibly. They are racing straight to self-improving TV advertising performance and gambling with our ROI. More thoughts below. I'd like to be very good. I only read the first line. It's stupid. Apple foldable crease. Let's see if there's anything here. This is how Apple dealt with the crease issue on the iPhone do. This is definitely going to be the best folding on the market. I think passport size of it. There's some photos. There's a canyon. It's not a crease.

25:31It's a canyon. The crease in the middle isn't very noticeable. It's been handled well. I don't know. We'll see. It definitely seems like they were waiting for the technology to become post-crease before they launched this. Foldable phones have been out for five years, seven years, or something like that. They've always been a little rough. The hinge gets dirty. This feels like it will hold up for at least one year to get you to the next one. What do you think? I think that's a plan. Injullized shot of 11 months and 27 days. We engineered it. I'm trying to find an image of the new Apple Watch, which I think they're calling the Apple Watch. What is that for? Because it is just crazy to look at. It's got the Jubilee bracelet, right? It's got a really chunky metal bracelet on it. Anyway, let's see what the groupinator says about the iPhone Air and iPhone 17 Pro.

26:32Last year, an unplanned personal hiatus coincided with the time I should have been reviewing the then new iPhone 17 and 17 Air. He said, 354 days is arguably more than a few. But given I missed the window for reviewing them when they were new, I thought it might be interesting to consider the iPhone 17 Pro and Air on the cusp of their being obviated by the next generation of iPhones. So the iPhone Air is the nicest phone Apple has ever made. Probably the nicest device Apple has ever made. Period. It's just so nice. It loves it. I've seen it in 17 Pro. I'm eagerly awaiting the daring fireball review of the new foldable phone, but he's got to get his hands on it. I got to know what he's thinking about. Yes, the Air Maze Paris Apple Watch. Is this the Ultra? That is a chunky, chunky device. Yeah, this is the Ultra 4. Ultra 4. You don't like this? It's not to like.

27:34It's horrific. Is that the dial or the bracelet? Everything about it. It does have a very odd interface to the actual watch with that bar that comes out of the clasp. Like the clasp doesn't actually integrate fully into the watch. It sort of has these two points that bolt on there. Yeah, pretty chunky. But honestly, the Apple Watch Ultra, this device, had gotten so chunky that I think the chunkier band might fit better with the chunky watch. Because if you put a really thin strap on that, then you just have this massive bulge on there. Yeah, I almost think this should have launched it as an ankle bracelet. Imagine checking your super chunky watch by just pulling up your foot on it. An ankle monitor. The box is the Boston Roller. And you could be in a meeting just looking down.

28:36Yeah. I've seen some guys doing that with their whoops. They put it on their ankles. Or yeah, people are saying Bobby Cosmic says no pendant. Imagine you have this pretty chunky. The Flake of Flake. Yeah. Yeah. This clock. Yeah. John Ternis was vague posting before this at 6am. He posted just a light and it was maybe a little bit too vague. Was that it? It was just a light. It didn't really hint at anything. Was this it? What's wrong, Ternis? Was this it? I prayed you might say something. Was this a teaser that is there a folding thing here that I'm not picking up on? Is this a homage? Samsung Mobile US hit accents. So far so same. Hashtag it's time to switch. Throwing shots. There's the hashtag in 2026. They're going to go so they're going to be so dedicated to the hashtags on that brand account that it's going to become ironic and cool again to use hashtags and they're going

29:36to be in the perfect spot. Let me tell you about railway. Railway is the all-in-one intelligent cloud provider. Use your favorite agent to deploy web apps, servers, databases, and more while railway automatically takes care of scaling, monitoring, and security. In the Wall Street Journal, Wall Street Journal, they didn't talk about math. It made it to the digital version. Didn't make it into the paper. Navier Stokes did not make the paper edition of the Wall Street Journal, but Metta and their new personal agent did. It's right here. Metta launches the absolute state of traditional media. This is... Metta. Probably it's more profitable as a business perspective, right? It's like, what are you going to do, sell math theories? Navier Stokes was a $1 million price. You don't think Alex Wang can pull a million bucks on this. This could be a trillion dollar price. They haven't monetized it yet, but they got to put ads in this thing.

30:37Will they do agent to commerce? What will they do? You were very excited talking to Supernator yesterday about AGI for small businesses, for folks who run ads on Metta. I still love that idea, but they're going in a different direction. They're doing personal, super intelligence. Zach's been talking about this for a year at least. He's put out a lengthy blog post about how he wants AI to diffuse, how he wants everyone to have AI. Now everyone does. With the Metta Muse app, that's a separate app that you get that will book restaurants for you. The Wall Street Journal has a little bit of a story here. Metta platforms is betting that making AI agents easy to use will get mainstream consumers to start adopting them in their daily lives. The company on Tuesday announced a new personal AI agent that can buy goods online. I think they partner with Stripe on Link. I don't know if that just means that when Link is enabled on a particular checkout, it'll

31:40be a little bit smoother. If it's going to try and steer you towards things that are linked, because some websites do it, it's really nice when they do. Certainly, getting closer to this can respond to emails. Do you have to link it to your Gmail? To get that working. Complete other tasks, users authorize you to do for them. The agent called Muse is accessible via a dedicated app. Users operate the agent by conversing with it like a typical chatbot and can choose their own names for it. I saw some really funny ones. Tyler called his mark. I saw someone else that someone gave it a really funny name. You can pick one. Then the name of the agent was just you can pick one or something like that. A bunch of funny hallucinations always happens with these products. Everyone's going to have fun with them. The new tool is met as latest attempt to monetize its massive AI investments, which are expected

32:45to top $130 billion this year. The AI agent is free to access for most of what people need and has two tiers of subscription plans for power users, $100 a month and $20 a month. The topic in open AI have built multi-billion businesses around agents capable of performing complex computer tasks. But most of that usage is driven by software coding or other business applications, consumer adoption of technology lags behind, offering meta, apple and other companies potential for catching up. The fact that we've given such a powerful technology in a package that is going to be really digestible for the product is one of the things that will set us apart from lots of other agent products, met as AI chief Alex Wang said in an interview. Then Thompson was raving about the fact that it gives you a pretty powerful VM, eight gigs of memory and eight gigs of storage that is yours sequestered and they're also implementing a lot of the security features that they have done with WhatsApp where there's end to end

33:45encryption. Yeah, they got Moxie pulled into it, apparently. That's really cool. Moxie's a legend. So, great on the recruiting front, everyone loves signal and great team there. Yeah, the question is how it sounds like if they're actually giving every user a computer VM, but yeah, it's like virtualize. But yeah, but the cost is going to probably be pretty significant. So the VM most likely spins up when you use it and then gets taken down when you're not using it. So, the actual compute hours that are associated to anyone but a power user and of course, very quickly you can wind up spending 20 bucks or 100 bucks and that's enough to just pay for a virtual machine. You can go and rent a true virtual machine to host your website and digital ocean for like 20 bucks. So, Kaz, the CEO of Open Door, went to Axon said posted a screenshot of him asking Meta

34:48AI in WhatsApp and he said, please make WhatsApp the main interface for these things, Alex Wang, please. And he just says, how do I use Muse? And Meta AI response, Muse is a free AI assistant from Anthropic. You can use it on the web on mobile or through their API. Yeah. Go to claw.ai, create an account and log in. So I'm looking at this post. I'm trying to find why is nobody talking about how Meta AI thinks that Muse is a product from Anthropic and is telling people to go log in there? That is weird that it would hallucinate that Muse is from Anthropic because there's not even any connection between those. Not like Anthropic ever had a product called Muse that I know of. Very odd, but Meta AI of course is running an older LLM and then I believe you get, you still get thrown into a Lama model. I think when you're on Instagram, if you wind up in an LLM chat and so there's going to need to be unification around all of these different products and they're going to need to eventually talk to all the same models. But of course there's like scaling and all sorts of different issues that you need because

35:53some of these products that they've gotten to scale are pretty significant even if they're not the most talked about when you are a hyper-scaler with billions of users and you vend an LLM into something, you've deployed that at scale, it's doing a lot. It's like the new Gemini 3.7 Flash, bunch of great reviews, great benchmarks on things but they can't just stuff that and you will search on day one. They have to actually scale it up. Question I have is, do you think they, does it seem like this was something they were working on prior to instinct gaining traction or is this in instinct clone? I saw one post that was saying that rumor that they tried to buy it would make sense. Our for Rock says there's a rumor going around that Meta and others made a 10 figure offer for instinct. That's a crazy valuation for one year old company, something like that. It's turned down.

36:57Now Meta has launched news. That's literally what the post is. Meta has launched news and now the timeline is reacting, it'll be a big deal, sounds familiar. I saw some people saying now the people with distribution are coming in, it'll be interesting to see how much, what distribution looks like in the Meta ecosystem because yes, Meta was able to win stories. How did they do that? They didn't win by launching a Snapchat clone as a separate app. They won by putting it in Instagram, which already had the install base. If Muse works its way into Instagram, which a lot of people do use, it'll probably get a lot of adoption. If it's a separate app, it's a little bit trickier. Now the threads playbook worked. They routed a lot of people to there. The image shows up on Instagram, it has an advertising surface area, it's pulled over. What are they at? A couple hundred million. Hundreds of millions. M.I. Use and again, it's hard to fully understand the value of that because they're counting

38:02somebody who clicked through clickbait on it. There's that. And then also, there's a real community of pure threads users. The other thing that I think about is like Meta has the advantage of being able to, when you open all their apps, just put a huge billboard, they make adamatory just for themselves. Yeah, with the red ants. The specs where you open around cropping. That's specs. Sorry. That's a little slip there. But when you open Instagram and Q4, it's like buy some of our classes. Totally. And so I would expect, I don't think they're going to do that until Muse has like, see if you can get the read doctors on and figure out all the kinks and stuff. John Hughes says Meta has been working on Muse for almost a year. Now, you have to believe that that's true. The man of sacrifice in ties into that, the zuck messaging around personal superintelligence. I mean, even the community. When we interviewed him a year ago, we were asking about, oh, am I going to be able to use

39:03your AI to actually buy, if I see a pair of shoes, while I be able to just buy it. And he was kind of like, I'm not ready to announce that yet. But it was very clear that that's where this was going. So I don't think it's an instant clone. I think it will compete with instinct. And I think it's tricky because instinct is pretty early and they are going up against a big company that's been investing and has a lot of resources to go after this very, very hard. At the same time, consumers come to Meta to be entertained. Muse feels like a product for productivity. And I'm not sure that people will put them in the same buckets. It's very unclear. At the same time, people do a lot of shopping on Instagram, basically, just scrolling. Really? Oh, for sure. Not actually checking. Are you joking? Come on. I think it's just investment. No, no, no. So it's like the most dominant shopping app of time that is positioned as. Particularly people will go there and not just search things, but just casually scroll

40:09and linger over things so that they get retargeted. Visit websites and then have the ads come to them. And so you could imagine that on the shopping side, that there's a lot of traction there. But you have a lot of excitement around this. Climbing the chart is currently Muse's number three on the charts. That app store, ESPN Fantasy Sports and Moran Chat GPT. ESPN Fantasy Sports and then. Growing Daniel came in with an absolutely brutal ratio. What is that? He quoted Zach's announcement with a screenshot of the exchange that Zach had with somebody during the early days of Facebook where he said, yes, so if you ever need info about anyone at Harvard, just ask. I have over 4,000 emails, pictures, addresses, and student numbers. What had you managed that one? People just submitted it. I don't know why. Just quote unquote, trust me, dumb f's. Anyway. How? You're growing Daniel. Never forgets. Obviously, Zach has grown up a lot since then.

41:11Who punched him in the nose? That's the question. That is the big question. Ryan Peterson is asking. Let me find the, you said me the image. Is this true? So. Yeah, so here's the thing. His nose is starting to look like this guy, Marab, who is a UFC champion. And Marab has one of the most busted up noses in the UFC. And Marab was the UFC fighter that Zach was training with on that deck. That's a lot of people asking. So pull up this picture of Marab and you can see their noses are starting to look quite similar. That's a really, that's a really good sign that he's zoom in there. Zoom in there. It's pushing. Look. And then he says, Zach was like, give me one of them right now. Give me a nose like that right now. I like it. Do you think so? And I would expect, you know, who knows, Marab could go and get probably surgery to correct this one.

42:11It's a very cool battle scar. Or, uh, and to it, you know, this tells me that Zach is going way harder in training than he lets on in the video. Totally, totally. Which I love to see. He's like, he's ready for that Elon fight. He's like, there's a chance I might catch Elon on a good day. He ups in. Yeah, I got to be ready. He's also going extremely hard on the Irish countryside by and castles. We call them Lord Zuck. We got a video now breaking down his latest real estate purchase. Strangcally Castle in Ireland. Let's play a little bit of this because there's some good voice over, some good fantastic. And it can be found on the banks of the river Blackwater in County Waterford. This Gothic revival mansion was designed by the famous Pean Brothers. For John Cyle, a local landlord, former Tory MP for Clan Mel, and high sheriff of County

43:12Waterford. The house was complete in 1830. And it's scaled. He's got a bunkie under there. It took a brisk four and a half minifigure. It is a bunker. Just to get from the kitchen to the dining room. Within the grounds there was a folly, Chinese pagoda and an aviary. The folly, which is known as Strangcally Tower, was built in 1826. We're having David Perl in the show later and talk about architectural revival, medieval structures. And it's served as a huge. He's going to have the resources to actually restore this and do this. These castles are cheap relative to how epic they are, but the carrying cost of actually renovating or living in, even visiting any of these places. Just cleaning out the cobwebs is probably six figures a year. And the landscaping's got to be extremely expensive. But I think this is the answer to where is the tech wealth going.

44:13At some point he's either going to get bored of this or donate it or pass it on or it's going to fall out of the family because seven generations later, the family's like, yeah, we don't really want this castle anymore. And boom, you got a beautiful museum that was properly renovated and brought up to modern standards in 2026. And is prepared to actually house a bunch of prints of AIR. We're going to watch this quick video and then we're going to talk about absolute doom and despair. Okay, let's do it up. But first, this little palette cleanser. What are we doing? Amporer, dude. Is that a deal like that? No. I wish that people did what I wanted them to do. It's like that would be fun, but in the meantime, you can have some fun. Yeah. Oh, yeah, I would have a chop, right? I don't even know what I would have. I would have an underground tunnel. I do have an underground tunnel. Do you really? Yeah. It's like more of underground storage. I don't know. I don't know. I'm not sure if I can get a solution. But, um, well, yeah, I know it's, uh, it's, uh, it's a, oh, wow.

45:16Oh, wow. Oh, wow. I can get an emperor, dude. Is that the, I love that the, that the, oh, Vaughan arc happened where, like, for some reason, all the tech CEOs were like, it's right at passage. Now we gotta go. I'm disappointed we didn't get Sacha on the, oh, and I'm really disappointed we didn't get, uh, CC. I got a bunkey. Is that you got a bunkey? Is that you got a bunkey? That's that you got a bunkey. All right. Let's talk about doom. Doom. An anthropic researcher is quitting the artificial intelligence industry. Whoa. He didn't just quit the company, quit the industry, over fears that the lab and its competitors are racing to build systems that could spiral out of control and destroy humanity. This was not received well. A bunch of back and forth with another researcher chiming in saying that they, uh, that they have a p-dume of 10%, which is something that's come up years ago and we kind of went back

46:16and forth on. This all started with Jason Jacob Coxen, who said, I resigned from Anthropic today. I spent the last three years doing pre-training research at both OpenAI and Anthropic. Neither company is acting responsibly. They are racing straight to self-improving superintelligence and gambling with our lives. He is not happy with where things go and it got a hundred million views and 600,000 likes. It's going straight on a Bernie Sanders billboard for sure. I worked on an actual thermonuclear weapons project, Martin Cassado from A16Z says and the dissonance was less bizarre. And so he's comparing it to what it was like working on very scary technology, very different than what's going on today. And Evan Hubinger, who works on alignment science at Anthropic previously, Meary, OpenAI, Google, Ripple, Yelp. I guess he works with the, Ripple is the cryptocurrency, is that right?

47:17Isn't Ripple XRP? He says, Jacob is correct here. We really do earnestly believe AI could kill all humans. I personally think it's above 10% within the next decade. I believe in Anthropic is trying its best, but we do not yet have a plan to solve alignment for superintelligence and are clearly not on track too. So everyone's sort of pushing for a slow down now, but then you go into the regulatory capture thing. I've been seeing what. Just fucking hamster. Bro got that pip. Yeah. A lot of people are like, are you serious? Are you giving back your equity? Bal, bal, bal, bal. Yeah. Odd. Nick Carter says, if you actually believe this, you'd be committing acts of violent sabotage and terrorism against your employer. You clearly do not. So stop, stop it with this self-aggrandizing twaddle. LEAZER on the other side says, thank you for saying plainly what you believe. I do appreciate it. And the world could be even grimmer than it is otherwise. We have, we have LEAZER, you'd Kowskis co-author coming on the show tomorrow, Nate Saras,

48:19to talk about if anyone builds it, everyone dies. We'll continue the doom debate. It seems like it's in the news. Lots of people were just going back and forth on everything. Ryan Peterson sees it as a bull case. He says, I need to buy more stock in this company. I've never seen such a commitment to making money regardless of the consequences. Yeah, it is. It is. And Dare says, if you publicly assign a greater than 10% probability to human extinction within a decade, you owe people a clear explanation of how you reach that number. Plus, what would change your mind? Yes. Yes. So, yeah, a lot of people were upset that this felt like a vibe prediction, very like, you know, unresearched. He did link, Evan did link to the Anthropic Risk Report, which you can read in full. They have a reasonable scaling policy and they're talking about pacing the frontier, collaborating with other labs. And I'm oddly optimistic that this will happen.

49:23Obviously, you know, there's the Sam and Daria can't even hold hands on stage in that India conference. But AI has made strange bedfellows out of people. If you had said, oh, yeah, in six months, Elon Musk, the guy who's calling Anthropic Miss Anthropic will be doing a deal and bring in Shulto to watch rockets take off at Star Vays. I would have been like, no way, no way can Elon Musk and Dario become friends. Like that just seems like impossible. But the funniest outcome is the most likely to quote Elon again. And yeah, maybe there's this weird, you know, people wind up working together. There are other consequences of that. There are some very serious. Just thinking, thinking that, you know, believing in your whole heart that things are that serious

50:23and then just rage quitting and not leaning in and trying. Like do you really think that the rage quit method is? Yes. I don't know. I mean, some of these organizations are really big and if you're at a certain level, it can be very hard to actually get things done in a large organization. So you can be there and say like, yeah, I've been sending a Slack message and emailing the whole executive team every day that this is the thing that I want to have happened and it's not happening. And like, I don't have the authority within this particular role to actually have the change. People tend to think, oh, if you work for the company, you can exact your will. But that's not true. Like, you can work in the marketing organization. Think you want to run billboards in, you know, Tallahassee, Florida and not be able to get that done because someone higher up than you said, no, we're not doing billboards in Florida, right? But things get vetoed for a variety of reasons. So it's not like, you know, you just take a job at a 5,000 person company and then you can just do whatever you want. That's not the way companies work. It's, yeah, it's weird, weird time.

51:25We'll see. But our serious, there are serious like regulatory frameworks for not allowing collusion between big companies. And so we might wind up in this other weird scenario where if all the big labs are like, yes, okay, the government's not stepping in and regulating. We're going to self regulate, we're going to work together. Then that could actually be a legal problem because you're not allowed to price fix, you're not allowed to collude with your, that is like textbook antitrust, right? And then the other thing is that there's this weird dynamic I've seen playing out where people, the AI leaders make a prediction. And then the like the outsiders criticize that prediction is like, they're only saying that to raise the next round. They're only saying that, and this is the same thing with like all the labs were saying like we want regulation. And then there were only saying that for regulatory capture. And it's like regulatory capture might be a side effect of regulation, but the labs can

52:26still want it. And now I'm seeing people online look at what's happening and say we do need regulation. And I'm willing to put up with that regulatory capture that may happen under that scenario. And so there's all these weird like predictions that happen way too early for everyone to digest because the people inside the lab see things much earlier and understand, oh yeah, the okay, the next leg up is going to work. The agentic era is going to arrive. Swarms are going to be a thing like we're on track to solve this. Anyway, Jordi, one last thing and then we'll bring in one last thing. We're going to the Chabuco capital quoted Evan with his 10% prediction and said, hey, hey, Dario, congrats again on the great quarter. Nice to see enterprise re-exceleration. Hoping you could provide a little color on that 10% extinction number and some of the puts and takes that might have on further enterprise adoption and then just quick follow up after. Yeah, what are inthropic earnings calls going to be like?

53:31It's just going to be CFO and Dario or are they Daniela going to be on it? I don't know. It's like that's not that crazy to imagine that that happens. That's like a thing that happens on the call. Very, very odd. I mean, I guess you do have like defense tech companies that have earnings calls and defense crimes. They make it asked about geopolitical things that are pretty heady. I don't know. Anyway, we'll figure it out in the meantime. Let me tell you about MongoDB. What's the only thing faster than the AI market? Your business on MongoDB. Don't just build AI, own the data platform that powers it. Up next, we have David Con from Sequoia Capital to talk about the state of AI. Good news. There's lots happening. So I'm planning to talk about going on. Welcome back to you. Thank you so much for having us. How you doing? I'm going to see you guys again. You guys got a lot of range from Zux Castle to P.D. There's a lot of range. There's a lot of range. You think he's got a bunkey in the castle? Or do you think he has a bunkey?

54:32It seems likely. I think he's got a doom state dungeon. Dungen? OK. A doomed dungeon to go with Zux bunkey. Yeah. Anyway, what is on the top of your mind? Because there's so many different things happening in the application. We had cognizon. Harvey just raised a bunch of money. Things are going really well with diffusion and the actual application of the technology. There's value. Jobs, apocalypse, delayed. And should he do and be factored into financial models for series A investments? Yeah. Well, I think broadly in AI right now, I mean, the thing that seems really interesting to me is just the concentration of capital going into these big companies. It does seem like the thing top of mind for me is just like the way the venture landscape has changed. And you think about doing this job five, six years ago, you had 100 interesting companies that everybody was looking at and you're trying to find the next one. And that's still happening. And yet so much of the conversation today is about the top 10 companies. Yeah. And then on that point, is the biggest, is the concentration of capital into an open

55:35A&Tropic, maybe XAI, SpaceX 2? Is that the biggest driver or is when you're talking about reshaping venture, I've been much more keyed in on the fact that you get hugging face and open router. And there are now many decacorn liquidity events that I would think changes the underwriting if you're a VC. And you're like, yeah, it's an early round. It's a billion dollar evaluation. But there are plenty of examples of 10X returns at this scale. Well, I think, I mean, to me, that's always been the case. And we were early investors in hugging face. And I think there's always been an thesis on, you have a big community. And you have a lot of bottom up adoption and that there's a lot of option value in those side of the companies. I think you'll see that get reflected back into the market where there's always these companies where investors ask 100 questions about what does this become. And yet you just have so much sucking sound from the market that those are going to be come interesting companies. And it's so hard to be relevant and build something important. And I think hugging face to that and open router did that. And so I think they'll continue to be examples of that.

56:35The thing that's interesting to me just in this moment, and it's like the fall of 2026 or about the C.D.s IPO is this precipice of moving from so much capital. And honestly, this is not even like a tech market DC market thing. Like the entire universe of capital has concentrated on this one sliver of the market, which is kind of pre IPO, elite stage, AI companies. And we're about to see that transition into the public market. And so I don't think anybody knows what exactly that's going to play out. But it does feel like we're on the precipice of something pretty interesting. And it is wrong to think that it will play out as a binary one day liquidity wave, correct? Because there will be lockups. And then many LPs will receive their stakes and want to hold some venture capital firms, registered investment advisors will hold as well. So we're looking at how exactly does that change the market? Because there will be the optionality of liquidity. And not necessarily actual cash on balance sheets ready to go into the next generation of startups.

57:38Yeah, I mean, one thing I've been thinking about it, you guys remember the 2021, you had like Crowdstrike and Data Dog were public and then you're investing like private Crowdstrike and Data Dog, right? Yeah, it was Databricks, right? And you could go invest in Databricks. And it was the same business quality. You should have understood how this thing was going to trade when it was liquid. And I think that's what's interesting about AI right now is like there's no real call like comps for any of these private companies. But as soon as one of these companies, let's say Anthropic is the first to get out. As soon as one of these companies gets out, then I think you actually have a better valuation framework for the rest of the market. And so I think it is a healthy thing for the market when you kind of can look at the liquid, you can look at the illiquid, you see how these things trade and it will provide a lot of clarity, I think, to the private market. Why is SpaceX not a good comp for Anthropic Open AI and then even the smaller firms? I think it is. SpaceX was the beginning of this. Obviously, it's held up really well. And for all the volatility and every day, my brother and I always joke of like, every day you see a news headline that's like stock was up 2%, and it's like stock's coming down 2% every day.

58:38Nothing happened. There's always like some reason why it happened. By the way, it's like, oh, and I haven't done. And SpaceX has held up well. There have been liquidity unlocks. Everyone was super worried going into the liquidity unlocks in the media and nothing. It was like a non-event. We're still at the end. Remember the day of the big unlock, somehow traded up like 7%. Remember correctly. Like a short squeeze for all these guys or shorter than any of these days. Yeah. So I do think SpaceX is the bell weather and it's not to your point. It's not going to be a one day event, but I think it's an exciting time that these companies are growing so fast. I think there's a lot of demand for these companies and it's going to be interesting to see that play out. I think the second thing that we're paying attention to and I think a lot of investors are focused on is just like the full stack of the data center build out that's happening. There's, I wrote this blog post maybe a year and a half ago, server, steal and power are kind of the three pillars. Obviously everyone's paying attention to the server side, which is chips. Steel side is the industrial side. You know, you have Elon now making his own gas turbines. Yeah. There's a lot of emphasis on the industrial revolution component of this where you know,

59:40we're out of, we can't make more of the components to go into data centers. And then of course the power piece where everyone's looking at, hey, we know how to get power for the next, there's no more power for the next 24 months. What are the timelines and with these big catbacks projects, you have to plan two, three, four years out, who even knows what the world's going to look like two, three, four years from now. So I think that deeper below the, you know, cusp of open-air and throttic, the frontier models, all the things that make them possible. And I think the market is pretty well educated on compute market now and investors are familiar with all parts of the stack, but I think there's going to be a lot of innovation all across that. I think that the opportunity and the grid opportunity in power plays out more like the neo-cloud market than the rocket launch market. Like I've always said like, ah, I'd be amazing if we had an Elon of solar or even an Elon of nuclear. And there's some nuclear companies that are doing really well. Some of those founders could go on to build like the trillion dollar energy company, but

1:00:42it feels like everyone's focused on it. There's so much capital flowing and energy. Default would be very oligopolistic. Bunch of great outcomes, but not this winner take all behemoth. But what's your model for where energy and grid build out goes? Yeah, my mental model is probably closer to the Elon case than the EO cloud case and I can explain why. I think on the neo-cloud side, the primary innovation was financing. That's sort of how I look at it. Yeah, it's like real estate credit. I have a bunch of gems. Yeah, exactly. So how much is your gems and gems into his credit was an amazing player in the ecosystem and this helped really build the ecosystem. He made Corey, Corey was today. There was sort of this moment where Corey realized we can buy these chips. You can finance them with blackstone. Somebody's going to finance the GPUs. So there's a lot of financing innovation. Now there's a lot of companies that have followed suit. Obviously, you need to be a good deal maker. But in some ways, you know, you could start a neo-cloud tomorrow. You know how to do it. Getting access to power is hard. It's not easy. But there's 15 neo-clouds. There's going to be more. I think my contrast in my partner, Sean McGuire always has a great framework around this.

1:01:45On the hardware side, he wrote this hardware manifesto long before hardware was cool. And he had this concept of, you know, hardware, there's potential energy and these hardware companies spend five, six, seven, eight years building this potential energy. And it's because they're doing real, very difficult R&D work. And at some point, that potential energy converts into kinetic energy. And that's when stock prices move. And you see that with SpaceX, which took 24 years to bake. And he stepped in these hardware companies. And so at Sequoia, as we're looking at the energy ecosystem, we've sort of chosen a few places to make investments. Sean was on the show talking about Valor, which is our nuclear investment. Last week, we announced our investment in a company called Form Energy, which is doing grid scale batteries. That's a company. It was founded by the guy who ran the energy business. He actually started the energy business at Tesla. A guy named Yetman Chang, who is probably one of the top three battery experts alive today. So just a very, very strong team. And they're nine years in. They spent nine years building these billion dollar batteries. They just signed up a big project with Google earlier this year.

1:02:45And so, and then you ask yourself, okay, well, we're going to have a lot of solar and wind, or we're going to have a lot of batteries on the grid. I think the answer is yes. And then you have a company that's been nine years building IP to go put those batteries on the grid. And then this unique moment to go scale that up for AI. So anyways, I think there's going to be to your question. Like I think there's going to be three, four, five interesting kind of companies with deep, IP that you can go invest in. But I think it's different from the Neocode space where what you really need is capital and access to GPUs. Whereas on the grid side, you actually need you ideally want some real fundamental IP that is that is difficult. And then of course, you need access to capital, right? So I think on the nuclear stuff, what's interesting and a lot of these companies, you need to raise billions of dollars before you get to the promised land. And so that alone, one thing I say to founders, I meet a lot of seed sage founders in hardware. And I'm like, even if I think your IP is amazing, I can't invest if I don't think you can raise a billion dollars because you just won't get there, right? And you'll end up getting consolidated. And so access capital and consolidating capital obviously is an important part of building these

1:03:46companies as well. So what are you looking for? Like what are the tells of a founder who can raise a billion dollars? Is it great storyteller? Is it just actual? I mean, I was like a great example because even early on at the seed stage, like honestly, if I look at the Gunda crew and I look at Augustus and Isaiah and their ability to sell you their vision was just on another level even before they had raised like 10 million bucks. Like when they were raising their first round, they were just different. Like they had a natural talent and then they've refined that. And you have to be in a category that allows you to sell this vision of a trillion dollar opportunity, a hundred billion dollar opportunity, what that is. But I think you have that like natural talent and selling ability that is somehow inherent to some people. Like there are people that are just way less compelling naturally and they get more compelling over time because they get more confident in their business and round after round and

1:04:50hundreds of pitch meetings and meetings with candidates and they just get better and better and better. But then some people just start on at the 10 yard line and they just refine it a little bit and then they can go from raising the $5 million round to raising a billion dollars. In our program meeting, we actually talk about this a lot. I mean, actually, this is probably the most important question that you have to get right in early seed investing. Now, the framework we often use is would you go work for this person? Because anything is sort of subsumed in that. Like if other people have to go work for this person, the decision of whether to go work for person is effectively putting a hundred percent of your equity in this one company. Would you put a hundred percent of your equity in this company? And often, we had Mateo, the former energy CEO come in. You have people kind of come and say, wow, this person seems really serious. This person seems like they have an incredible track record. In his case, he had built the energy business of Tesla. They sort of done something that's really impressive early on in life. And then there's a clarity of thought component, which is sometimes pictures are coherent

1:05:52and centers they're not coherent. There's sort of a coherent story, which is like, okay, we're for energy is building an iron air battery. Iron is really cheap. Air is really cheap. That is why they're building an iron air battery. It's so simple. And yet, kind of makes sense. And then it's like, well, why do we need batteries? Well, there's no sun out at night. It's really simple things. And I think something we look for in a lot of these conversations with founders is a clarity of thought. If you can articulate to an investor who's not the most sophisticated, investors are never the most sophisticated people are on the table. If you articulate to an investor a very clear articulation of why this vision makes sense, why your plan makes sense, then you're going to be able to articulate that to an employee. And then we have people like Sean to have PhDs and physics. Incredibly deep on the science technology behind it. And you sort of marry those two things. And I think that's kind of how we make these decisions. And we spend a lot of time with people. We spend a lot of time getting to know the founders as well. So Mateo, I had known for six years before we invested Sean, New Isaiah for a long time before we invested. You're not making the decision in a single pitch. How are you thinking about

1:06:54trying to time the acceleration of the real world right now? It feels like it's much faster to do things on your computer. And it's creating efficiencies and a bunch of it for a bunch of people and companies and all these things. But we're not seeing the kind of GDP growth that has at least been predicted. And it feels like in order to have that, we're going to need to see one of general advancements of models and AI models that can actually be a drop-in sort of addition to your team or replacement or whatever that ends up being. But it feels like we're going to need to make a lot of, do a lot of things in the real world to feel that acceleration. And even with the launch of Astra, we haven't actually played this video on the show yet today. But somebody had basically hooked up Astra. Like, and it can just drive your car now, right? And it's not designed to, you know, it wasn't

1:07:58something that the model was designed to do. But the models are getting sufficiently advanced at understanding the world. And it feels like we're on the cusp of this like acceleration of the real world, which I think is going to be way, it's very magical experience to like, say, generate me an image of this scene in my head and be able to see it on your screen. It's going to be a hundred times more magical to be like, make this thing in the world. And then it just makes it, right? And that can be applied to the real estate to building widgets, you know, the list goes on and on. But robots building other robots and building things. I feel like we'll be the greatest investment cycle ever and much more exciting for normal people than just, hey, we made this software feature, you know, in two weeks versus, you know, 20 weeks. That's two thoughts on that. I mean, one is I think it's so important to synchronize the timeline of your investment with the timeline. It's your point. And like, you need to understand when the

1:08:59market opportunity is going to convert. And ideally, you're synchronizing the timeline of the company with the time of the market. So for example, if you're trying to solve AI power and you're starting today, it's kind of late. We need more power like literally in a year. So it's like, hopefully you've been working on that problem already for a few years. If you're trying to solve nuclear and that's a 2040s problem, great. You can synchronize the timeline of being an early stage company chasing an opportunity that is really going to hit its inflection in the 2040s. So I think that synchronization matters. And then I think the second thing, you know, it is interesting that DCs have really shifted toward hardware and right, like there's this broader trend. I think Andrew came up and she went and talked about send cut send. Like we've been doing a lot of stuff in the hardware, reindustrialization space. Part of that is because of this feeling that the timelines are so fast in the digital world that it's hard to create modes and it's hard to create value. So I think there's a reason why in hardware, there's a feeling that you can create modes over many, many years. And eventually, obviously, the ultimate mode to your point is going to be the machine that makes the machine, right? It's the it's the reindustrialization of this country. And I hope we're going to get there. I think we're going to get there. I do think sci-fi kind of

1:10:00preamps reality. And so Isaac Asimov, obviously, imagined the most and I robot the most valuable company in the world. Does the company make all the robots? And there's a reason I think a lot of investors on Tesla for that reason, because I think that he's going to win on Optimus. So I think there's a lot of companies that should benefit from acceleration in the physical world. And there's a lot of investment going in there. That's awesome. Well, thank you so much for coming on the show, working it down. It's excited to have you back soon. Always a good time to see you. Have a great rest of your day. Appreciate the takes. We'll talk to you soon. Let me tell you about console console built A.A.G. and set automate 70% of IT HR and finance support giving employees instant resolution for access requests and password resets. We have Mikey Schoelman, co-founder, CEO of Suno here with us in the room. Let's bring him in. No, I go. I go. Yes, since I think since you came on the show last, we have all been completely one-shoted by Suno. It's time to tell you how we come in to the studio. We're blasting Suno songs. We have a lot of fun with them. Make a Suno song for our friends, whatever the news is of the day. We're having a great time.

1:11:05But how are things going with you? Much better now that I know that you guys are enjoying the product. I will say, okay, I'm going to give you, I'm going to give you like, I'm going to give you I'm going to tell you one thing. I'm going to tell you one thing and I'm going to tell you another thing. This is a compliment sandwich. Okay, a compliment sandwich. You don't need to compliment sandwich. That's fine. No, no, no. So one, the product is like the AI, you know, is probably the AI product that has brought me the most belly laughs period. It's just a joy to use daily user. Like we have so much fun with it on the team. I've pulled it up in situations in my own home that I think are hilarious to me. It's less funny to members of my family, but anyways, the product is just like amazing. It's wonderful. I get so much joy out of it. I think the software quality is bad in the app. Like I think that it's not on the model side. Not on the model side. Like the model is amazing. Like the things that matter are like so good.

1:12:11Like it's so unbelievably fast and I haven't even tried the new model yet. But the actual software, I think, you've been hard to navigate or no, no, no, it just feels like kind of buggy and it feels like you guys feel like you've been vibe code and too hard. I want you guys to like, you know, you know, basically do some cycles on just cleaning it up a little bit. Okay, but a more optimal sandwich. What do you think? That's a good compliment sandwich. Let me say actually I've only got a bread on one. The final bread. It's amazing. No, no, no, no, the actual quality of the of the output is the real product is the most of all. Whereas like video generation, you're looking at it and like no matter how much ever you put in, it's still like not quite there. This is like it passes the touring test of like listable. So you can have fun with it. Anyway, continue. I appreciate that. We should probably stop releasing models while you guys are on an airs. So you can actually have some time to test them out. But yeah, well, I'll just take the opportunity to talk about what we're doing today, which is releasing a new model. Okay.

1:13:13And so way better than the last one. Okay. It's actually way faster. So you'll see the way that you can use it when the songs come back so faster. It's just very different, much more fun way more expressed faster. I don't know why it needs to be faster. Like it was already fast enough because I would pipe the prompt and I would click the button and then it'd be available immediately. And I think that's because you stream it in, right? Like it's still rendering in the background. Is that right? No, we're still streaming it. But when I when I feel like it's low is when I'm when I'm in one of these, you know, when I'm one shot by a song, but I want to change like a certain word. I'm like, change this. Okay. Well, then get on the seat. You got on the seat. B6 has you covered. Yeah, that was the thing when I first, when we first started using, when we first got one shot by Suna, we would fire off a prompt and put your phone down and be like, I'll come back to it in like, you know, five minutes to see where it's at. But then we back in like 20 seconds. Okay. I think the thing that people don't realize is that when you're building things in entertainment, actually the loop speed, how quickly you give something to your

1:14:15users ends up mattering a lot. We can actually measure that pretty directly. And we know how much it matters, but just going back to the model. So V6 is better. It's faster. The songs are way better. It's more expressive. We have V6 wild, which is a model that makes just some of the most interesting stuff, even though the songs themselves may not be quite as good. I'm having a ton of fun with that one. And it's actually like a big day for Suna and actually for the whole music industry, where this is done in concert in partnership with some of the best music companies in the world. It's really kind of laying out a blueprint for how we think, and I can really grow the entire music ecosystem. So we're super, super excited. Yeah. We were talking to John A. Moore on that. Yeah, we can go there. Sure. On the on the partnership. Yeah, the partnership. Everyone's waiting for a partnership. Everyone's been been interested in how the economics will flow. What happens to

1:15:16songs that are used in training. Obviously, there's a fair use argument. There's obviously the Spotify I want a royalty on everything forever. And it feels like this is the start of moving the conversation forward at least one click. This is definitely an amazing start. The way I think about this is, yes, these are now not only new business lines and new revenue streams for rights holders, for artists, for all kinds of creatives. Most importantly, these are really long-term partnerships that let us build products together with the greatest music companies, with the best creatives. And the thing that's so exciting is that for the first time in a long time, there's actually product differentiation. There's the ability to build things that are just different. And I think we've been so ingrained in the last 20 years just to think about digital music as one thing. And so we'll be releasing more products in the near future that let you play with the content from your favorite artists when those artists stop in, when users play with their content, the revenues that are attributable to those users, a portion of that will flow to those artists.

1:16:21And then again, just building more from that in the future of what should the future of music look like? What are the most engaging fan experiences? How do we pull people deeper into music and change the place that music has in their lives to change the place that music has in culture? And the thing that's so amazing is that there's kind of acknowledgement from all sides here. Like we have a very good start. We don't know what all of the products should look like, and we're excited to build them together. How does AI video play into this? I noticed that when I open Soono, I often get served a vertical video feed of other Soono creations that are often AI video animated in a pretty convincing way. Like you get a full music video basically. Is that something that you're planning to is it already available for everyone? Is there just a button that can make these or are there sort of like more pro creators that are using outside models, bringing a music video to the platform? It's a great question. Right now that is mostly creators bringing outside technologies to bear.

1:17:25I would just back up though and think the purpose of Soono is actually to inspire you to do things that you haven't done and not just to do the old thing of scrolling again. And so what you may have noticed is those videos are actually really tailored to get you to lean in, to take a piece of content you can actually remix it right off of that video. I think we're not used to thinking of ourselves as creators, us mere mortals. Maybe you guys are on TV every day. But it feels amazing to be creative and just getting people over the hurdle of actually I am a creator and I will find it really enjoyable to be creative. That's kind of the magical spark that we're trying to bring to people. Yeah and I have that all the time. John will send me a Soono song and I'll be thinking to myself. John, even though John, even though all I know, I know that John just wrote like a handful of sentences and he put the words and the letters and the right orders and it got that output. I'm still thinking there's a spark of like John is a genius for putting this set of ideas together

1:18:26and I know that he was like thinking about the lyrics and how to arrange it and things like that. And so that joy of creation and compacting it into something that, and again, I've always seen this as like net new, right? Like John, like the idea of like a gag song, you know, like a joke has been around forever. But the friction to do that. I thought we were enjoying it specifically because it allowed us to go after music that was basically low-tam. So we could make a song about the most feared lawyer, about John Quinn, a corporate lawyer that would never exist in any timeline other than when you dropped the cost of creation to effectively zero. Then you can actually get this. And I thought that was just us, but when I was scrolling Soono, I saw similar experiences happening in other pockets like someone made a song about the Revolutionary War and they took a bunch of history and it's like George Walsh. Have you seen this video? I mean, I don't know. But it's

1:19:27all animated with AI and I was like, oh, like this sounds like a fourth of July banger, but it's historical. But no one is really going to sit there and arrange that. And all of a sudden you have this like very niche overlap of like you want to July 4th, hard-hitting song, but you also want to learn history and like it puts it together in this really weird niche way, which I think is like happening all over the place. Yeah, look, let me let me say two things that one is a plug. You can go all the way down to a tam of one or two people. Yeah. You guys, I'm sure have iMessages with one or another. Yep. You can actually access Soono right from iMessage if you have the latest version of the app. And so it'll just be easier to interact there. Let's go. But the other thing I would say is I think maybe the best examples, I don't know if you guys saw this so-called Oreo Gate. No. Of, oh, this is a lady who took the text messages from her mom's chat about her kids eating Oreos or sending Oreos to school. And just using music as a platform to express, I don't know what

1:20:33is special and absurd and been all about everyday life. And if when I think about what was the alternative for her to be expressive like that to use her vantage point, she basically would have had to become a stand-up comic to bring this to life. And now you can use something like music to do this in an entirely new way. And it's something that I think like tons and tons of people really can relate to on a fundamental level. How do you think about all the ways other than speed and overall feeling of music or musical quality going from, you know, model generation to model generation? One thing I noticed with the last generation was that it would just constantly be referencing like glass in different ways. Like in a bunch of different songs, it would come back to this like, you know, the glass shattering. Yeah, I was talking to John and it was like to me, to me, it was like a towel that you like, Suno developed its own. It turns off raises. Yeah, it's not this. It's that

1:21:35or you're absolutely right. Like the Suno version of that was different, but it seemed to exist. How much are you hunting for those towels? You know, it's a really tricky thing in music, unlike let's say the big labs, LLMs and televisions, there are no benchmarks. And so these questions of taste end up mattering a lot, lot more. And even just measuring these things is really hard. So we are always on the hunt for kind of that telltale sign. And then yeah, there's a good amount of judgment that goes into how do we fine tune? How do we post train these models? Actually, what we're releasing today having both a V6 and a V6 wild, V6 wild being very differently post trained to be way more interesting and basically a little less good at making full songs, it's kind of a start at bridging that of how do we make sure that people actually have the most creative experience that they can? Back on the deal with Warner music group BMG believe,

1:22:37I'm interested to understand how you're talking to investors, how you see the market evolving over the long term. Because the most extreme economic share might be something like what we see with Spotify, I think they give maybe 30% of top line to artists across everything. There's a huge stake of revenue that goes to creators, still a hundred billion dollar company, fantastic business, we love Spotify. And I'm interested to think about as the industry outside of soon, but just AI generated tools, what type of economic structure would you see landing in equilibrium? I think about this in a couple of ways. There are things where we can think about how do we take the existing technology and really lower the cost and give it to way more people. And that's what you said before. And you would never be savoring these moments if it weren't so easy to make music. And then there's the whole other side of things of how do we actually now apply this to markets that

1:23:40people couldn't even fathom before. And this is actually something that I kind of live and breathe every day. If you rewind a couple of years ago and people think music is really small, I don't want to invest in it. And then you realize that it's not just that old tam actually what we're doing is fundamentally changing how people interact with media, how people entertain themselves and realizing that that actually is much bigger. And so to answer the question more directly, this is actually evolving. This is like we have some economic models now. We have a lot of alignment to build products together and figure out the economic models that go with those products instead of having to figure everything out all at once. The crazy time that we live in about AI progressing so quickly, we kind of don't have the luxury of trying to get it right in this very moment because things change so fast. What's the what is the demand side from consumers on editability, the pro workflow? Obviously the model is outputting basically a complete waveform,

1:24:43but you can also use AI to deconstruct that into stems into notes, into sheet music, and then a more experienced musician can go in and make fine grain tweaks and just like you can generate an image and bring in a Photoshop if you want. What is demand like, what are you building there, where do you see that side of the business going? We have a pretty broad product suite here from you can type in a few words or access it from iMessage all the way down to Suno Studio, which is our digital audio workstation, which is really professional workflows. What we've seen is actually by making those workflows not only different and powerful, but actually much more fun. More of the professional tooling ends up just appealing to average people who fall in love with making music. I think this is a lot like I might buy the signature guitar of my favorite guitarist. I don't think I'm going to be a famous guitarist, but it actually makes me feel really good knowing that I use the same tools that the greats use and it makes me feel better about my creativity.

1:25:43And I think that it's only for lack or it's a failure of imagination to think I can actually fall in love with digital tools in the same way. I know I'm using the same tool set at least in part that makes some of the best music. I feel more creative as a result. I fall in love with making music and there are virtual cycles there. What are you learning from the early sparks of progress in AI video? I was trying to think about the biggest AI video, the most viral AI video from last year and I couldn't put my finger on it easily. I can think about the previous year because that was Harry Potter, Balenciaga. That was the moment we were like, wow, this really worked. And I think for this year music like rubbers by Phoenix Fluxing, it's now out that it was AI generated. I don't know if you sooner or not, but it sparked the conversation. And then I'm wondering what next year looks like if we are trying to pattern match against the ebbs and flows of progress in AI video.

1:26:51It's a great question. I almost think video is having a super interesting moment right now as there's a lot of new models and they're getting more convincing. They're getting easier to use. And so we look at that very closely. I think the one maybe easy thing for me to say here is that actually speed ends up mattering a lot and as it becomes more affordable to really iterate a lot on video because if you remind let's say six months it's actually kind of prohibitive to make a full length video. I would imagine that we're going to see some very interesting cultural moment. And I think of these less as technology per se. It's actually you gave the technology to somebody who has an interesting point of view who's able to express that point of view to the world with these tools. And so I think it's very hard to predict exactly which point of view that will be. It's like a very cultural zeitgeisty moment. Yeah, I remember I talked to a modemist. There are going to be there's going to be at least one very big cultural moment. I will tell you that. That's all I can say right now, but there's going

1:27:55to be a big cultural moment involving music and technology. I was talking about a modemist stock after stable diffusion launched years ago. This was maybe 2023, 2022. And he was predicting that by 2024, 2025 there would be full movies that were AI generated. And we kind of got there, but they didn't really break through. But AI video is actually really successful. It's just taken a very different approach. And it's diffused in an interesting way where it's making its way into VFX workflows all over the place. And it's become very useful. But there hasn't been like the fully AI generated movie that is so good. It gets over the hill of like, oh, I don't want to like it, but I have to like it because it's good. And I'm wondering if that will be what next year in AI music looks like. It's a tool that's in every studio, every production. And it's something

1:29:01that certain artists take off the shelf occasionally, but it's not fully AI created albums that are out. But it's also not fallen by the wayside. Is that a reasonable prediction? Or do you think that's too too conservative? No, I think that's actually not too conservative. For the reason that an album is a or even a song is a point of view. And it's very hard to just one shot the point of view that is going to really resonate with the whole world. Yeah. It does happen. But I think of this as it is a process of refining your own point of view over and over again. And you may use an AI toolset. You may not use an AI toolset. And so like I think that you know, a year from now, it's actually quite mundane that there's a lot of AI in music. It's like used in every single part of the production chain. Some of it will be soon as some of it will not be soon. But the idea that like there's just going to be charts full of one shot at AI bangers to me actually kind of

1:30:03misses the point of it doesn't express the point of view of the artist. And I think that this is kind of a this is kind of a faulty comparison to let's say, you know, we just saw Open AI maybe prove a huge math theorem. And like this is something that is long running that is bearifiable. Music is just not that way. And so I'm not sure we expect to see the same types of things. Wait until I'm spinning up one million agents. One million, 10 billion instances of Soono to create the gigabang or chart topper that sits at Billboard Hot 100 number one for a hundred years straight. Yes, yes, the final song. I'm sure you can do it. I'm going with the other. Yeah, what was your what was your takeaway from like the aster a launch over the weekend because the lots of like blender models, lots of video games created. And I feel like the the answer isn't going like like a million one shoted web games were

1:31:05spawned this weekend. And I could not be more optimistic about GTA six blowing out the predictions. At the same time, I feel like as soon as I stop playing GTA six, I'm going to get a text from a friend with a really hilarious micro game that they vibe coded that's GTA six, but for TbPN or for tech or something. And I mean, oh, this is cool. This is a special thing that only makes sense to me and you. And so is that is that how you process that or is there anything new on the on the overall AI capability side that's exciting to you these days? Maybe I'm too dumb to predict the future. So I would just look at let's say the last revolution there, which would be Roblox letting people really start to make their own games. And at the beginning, it starts really small and people are really just playing their own games. And eventually the technology progresses where you get more of that power law, you get people playing other people's games, etc. And then you make an ecosystem there. It's not crazy that we'll see something similar there. But again, I think a game is a very it's a game's purpose is to be

1:32:10played by people. And it is very different from the general intelligence model of things. And so I think it's hard to really apply logic from one into the other. Yeah. Do you think that how much are we read into the the iPhone duo launch? Do you think apples so soon, O'Pill, that they want, you know, every person to have more real estate to be able to make music? What's your read? I really I really hope apples so soon, O'Pill. You know, humbly, I don't think we're the reason that they're making that phone. But if you want to suggest that I'm very happy to take it. I'm suggesting that. Yeah. As as somebody who makes mobile apps, do you have you guys, are you guys already looking into like the implications of this and how it'll like how you're going to need to change your application? To to be able to adapt to this kind of new might just be one problem to make it work on the two of them. For a lot of developers, that might be the answer.

1:33:10Yeah, absolutely. I think about this as opportunity of if there is different interaction with your phone, we actually are able to now inspire you at different times and like you can take out your phone and do something without unlocking it. You can use one camera versus the other camera. You know, I don't know what the plans are for the version pro, but when I think about a final form of sooner, it's actually how do I get a vision pro app that I can put on and conduct an orchestra? And so I think when we think about interfaces, this is where in the creativity game, we will just work on forever. There's no end to working on how we delight people by letting them interact with technology in the ways. Last question. Have you guys ever run any billboards or wheat pasting campaigns? Not that I know of why you if you if I just feel like billboards, we should. Well, I just feel like you should rerunning a billboard that says make a song with a sentence. And you should just go go hard on that because it's just like people,

1:34:12people need to experience the magic of this product. It's just like we got to not get people to pick up their phones while they're driving. That would be that would be bad, but we got to place those billboards in the right place. Everybody's in WayMos now, Tesla Cybercabs maybe. Full face for billboards. WayMos. No, no, no, it's actually a bear case because well, you're looking down on the phone. Yeah, maybe it's going to be rough. Anyway, thank you so much. The future is bright. You know, you're going to have you're going to be sitting in your WayMo, you're going to have a lot more time to be creative way better than driving, way stay for the driving. Yeah, you say nothing for my own thanks. That's making soon as soon as I get you. Great to see you, Mikey. Congrats on the launch. I'm excited to try the new model. A little, a little high this time. Have a good one. Go by. Let me tell you about Codex. Codex is a powerful workspace for getting work done with AI agents. Whether you're writing code, analyzing data, creating content, or automating business workflows, Codex helps you move projects

1:35:12forward from start to finish. Thieves rated the Renoir Museum in the latest French art heist. We'll get to that story after we chat with Keith Roboi, managing director at Coastal Ventures. Returning to the show for the fourth, fifth, sixth time. It's always great chat. Keep it going. Great. It's great to be back. Have you been following this French art heist? Is this bearish reference? I have not been following it. I don't know how I missed it. I was just in France last week and something. Oh, you were in France last week. Are you guilty? Let's figure it out. You know, you never know. Maybe I was still in prolonging some artworks. You're back in a private car. Our kids are too frothy. I'd rather swipe some fine art. Are they too frothy? It feels like there's a lot of value. A lot of the companies they're growing revenue, the products work, they're magical sometimes. Is it too frothy right now?

1:36:16Well, I think the revenue traction is real as you pointed out. Then there's a variety of different categories of companies. Some are producing meaningful margin on that revenue and others are not. I don't think you can paint with one broad brush and say, hey, all these companies are worth extra Y or not worth X or Y. You have to understand the fundamental drivers. Many of these companies have significant traction. I'm not worried about that. I don't think multiples are the right way to evaluate private companies typically anyway. If you work backwards from 2030 and say, which of these companies are going to be sustained? Which ones have durable advantages? Is that like to talk about it or communicate it through accumulating advantages? That's less clear. The traction is off the charts by any historical norms. The ability to go to 100 million in revenue from two years or so, or hundreds of millions in four years, basically unprecedented. But you still do have to ask questions about what's the sustainability of that revenue? Not just because customers may or may not change their mind or they may be new competitors, but like the way the ecosystem evolves around AI is

1:37:22not at all easy to forecast. So we struggle with this and debate this in our partner meetings constantly. The founders are impressive. The teams are impressive. The revenue and the adoption is impressive. And even the usage often is impressive. But if you still say this is going to be an iconic company that's around for 20, 30 years, in many cases, the question is not so obvious. Now, if you play your cards correctly, you may be able to get acquired. And that can be fine. No, and it feels like it feels like the powers that be in AI, I'm thinking of one guy I won't name him, is almost not willing to let any AI companies fail at this moment. At the moment, he is playing an interesting suit. That company means money. They're growing really fast and they have lots of profits. If you're in those shoes, you know, in your revenue depends upon people buying what you sell that are mostly AI companies. The strategy is incredibly

1:38:22coherent. Now, they are starting to move from being a platform company to a product company. You can see it with the recent acquisition. As they start shipping products, maybe they should products in other areas, they will compete with more people than they ever have before. Right now, any AI growth is great for Nvidia. But as they start having their own products, that may change how people perceive them and how they perceive others. And I think to continue and sustain their growth for whatever sort of reasons, they believe they need to have their own products. Yeah, and there's one thing that's interesting is there's so many companies that are marked up into the tens of billions of dollars that are actually insignificant to the overall AI trade. But their valuations are such that if one were to fail, you would have all over the Wall Street Journal financial times, all the newspapers, $30 billion dollar company. It would be like a rework for a noose level failure, which like it would be for a very different reason.

1:39:25But like, I think, yeah, and I think that I think that the market would be able to process it generally. But like you said, there's just when the cash is flowing, there's an incentive to make sure that, hey, let's buy this company an extra two years, right? Even when there's no other investors lining up to back the company. Yeah, I mean, it's in self-interest. The longer the AI wave continues, the better it is for Nvidia without a doubt. And the bigger the opportunity, almost surely, is better for Nvidia. Unless and until there's a better version of Nvidia or somebody obvious, their competitive advantages, which could happen. It always happens in technology at some point. We're seeing this play out now that what's the future Google? Who knows? But that was even five years ago, even for real ending that question, it kind of felt silly. But now it feels very realistic that a child or similar interface may displace all of searches.

1:40:29And the advertising revenue will look like lag. And so the business itself will show signs of life for a while. But people I know and not all my friends and colleagues in different fields are tech forward, have substituted huge fractions of what used to be searches with things they do with the Chatsubt. Yeah. Yeah. The last three things. Yeah, the last, obviously, I'm quite biased here, at least. But I went from last year not making any real commercial decisions with AI to suddenly everything I buy, all that research is happening within Chatsubt. And I feel like I'm buying better products and I'm having a better experience. I don't need to. I have very specific things. My frustration with Amazon was always, I just want to buy products where the company has been

1:41:32around for 50 years. I don't want to buy the drop shipped thing with a name that doesn't make any sense that's going to fail within the first year or whatever. I want to buy the thing that I'm willing to pay 30% more to buy the thing where the company has been around for 50 years. And so now I can now you can afford it. It's great. Yeah, but I'm talking. Yeah. The example uses like paper towels or like the paper towel holder. Anyways, I wanted to get right into how you are like what is your in like how much are you pricing in a like a data center freeze or or or real friction to bringing in and like what is your mental model for what happens then because on one hand existing compute that's in a powered shell becomes potentially a lot more valuable and starts to trade hands as certain companies are able to monetize it you know much better than others. But then there's

1:42:34potentially you know millions of of GPUs that aren't plugged in that the world is figuring out how do we shuffle these around the world to get them to places that that they can be plugged in and and the capital flows that happen there and the impacts to the to the labor market like there's so many downstream implications of that and when you have both sides of the political aisle that are realizing hey I can get points for pushing back here then it's hard to imagine that there isn't like very real friction ahead. So I think let me simply sort of the AI exposure first and then come back to the most devastating thing to the frothy hype and the traction that we're seeing with AI and the funding of it from VCs would be a vanthropic and or open AI have a blip in their public oxets their public their IPOs do they have to show metrics over the next month to first few quarters that cause people to value either company less than the current belief

1:43:41that they will trade in the trillions is so they can have a misalred revenue tracks like a misal margin something something like that would be catastrophic and immediately reset virtually all valuations in the AI world and probably deprived half the companies that are raising money from access to capital. Well yeah and then I've been asking that I've been asking that I'm not saying that's going to happen or is likely and I think if they miss it would be more on the margin side than on the revenue side and right now but if they do everybody is predicating the idea their valuations and new investments and dollars on the idea that you can build a trillion dollar company within the life cycle of a venture fund there's two examples currently and there's several companies that people will leave have the potential to get there if that changes and you cannot sort of predict that more trillion dollars or companies are can be created then the valuations that people are investing in and the dollars that are being invested do not make that much sense

1:44:43let me backtrack one second like basically in the history of venture a very successful company was 10 to 50 billion dollars maybe a hundred billion at the max that's like a home run that's like we all like dreamed about sort of thing it is possible now that at least one order of magnitude possibly two orders of magnitude have been added to the upside potential of a startup which does adjust the prudence and rationality of a VC investing 50 million dollars at 500 million dollars or whatever whatever the case is compared to you know when I invested in an Airbnb was at 1.7 million three or post 1.7 yeah so like that role may or may not be coming back but certainly by adding a zero or two zeros to the upside potential you can rationally look yourself in the mirror and say okay sure I'll take a shot on goal here but how do some of these investors and and I'm seeing these rounds let's call them like series B and C stage rounds where

1:45:43a company has a much richer revenue multiple then let's say the labs leading labs and they're growing like often like not not even necessarily as well and you know they're not as talent dense and these all these rounds are getting funded and I and and that is that's like that's like the place of of frothiness that I don't understand where I don't understand but I don't understand how you look at the business and say like oh yeah this has a path to a trillion when it's like okay every single person working at this company tried to get a job at like four other companies couldn't and then is now here and that doesn't mean they're not great and they could very well build a billion dollar company but I just I don't know how you you underwrite these things to that to that trillion dollar no you're not getting a very student observation nor do I which is hopefully on your list of companies that are getting funded that have those three criteria yeah yeah yeah yeah if you

1:46:45told me like hey company is growing less and less rapid clip than the frontier labs with less density of talent at lower scale at like that one hundred X lowers and less a higher multiple as my answer would be no you know I have some competitors all introduced you to you know in that I'll be in France yes I'll be in France I'll be fine I'll be fine I'll start up in France like yeah there's one or two apparently that are quite good but the fundamental driver though you identified which is key and all people lose lose sight of so it's worth double clicking on the critical density of talent does not yeah and so if a company is in a short term at low scale growing at you know X clip that's not that critical if they have the right team assembled against the right challenges that is investable you know up to some dollars about and whether you're like multiplying you know using men as multiple or open AI's implied multiple or in videos multiple

1:47:46doesn't matter in the earlier stages if the team is stellar but your point is the team is off a not stellar and I doesn't have to mean the same people that would work an anthropic for open AI but they have to be world class and what they do after craft and you have to be able to you know assemble a density of them you know in some ways you want to find people who are mispriced and that the labs don't necessarily value as much as they should and there's an archetype you can scale a company on but you still have to believe you're scaling with incredible talent like top one basis point ten based point on some dimensions to really believe that you're going to create a trillion dollar business from scratch in less than a decade do you think that differences in philosophy whether it's P Doom or AGI Pildness can create sub pockets of talent density we just had Scott Wu on the show brilliant mathematician cognitions on a tear he I don't know if this is just because he's at like the application layer but not a lot of doom a lot of optimism because

1:48:46he's interfacing with the real world and I love that energy and you see you see with ramp two where incredible talent density but not of the crazy doom scenario weird like you know that pocket is a different group those folks are really talented but they have different beliefs and so I'm wondering if there's if there's like the hyper talent actually scatters across different pockets of philosophical alignment absolutely you know it dries back from Peter's old expression of you know your billion cult yeah but think about cults have tenets yeah and so some of that is a philosophy of life and I think that's right like ramp we're optimistic about the future yeah we use technology to improve society we're optimistic about A our ability historically to do that in our billion the future we do that's why people come to work at ramp and that's what they do every day and all of them we're thinking like the world's gonna be better than it was a decade ago and it's gonna be better than it was 20 years ago and we're gonna we're gonna wave our magic wand and make it better if we have to yep yep uh yeah I'm a firm devotee of the cult of saving time and

1:49:54money that is for sure but uh what what what do you make of the conversation around doom there's been this back and forth around regulatory capture and the evolution of this and I've watched some people from the outside friends who are not in tech but critique tech from a political angle and uh they were upset about the rhetoric leading to potential regulatory capture but now they are worried about some of the developments and they're calling for regulation and so they're sort of begrudgingly giving the labs their due on the calls for regulation but how have you been processing just this year has it updated you at all on how we should think about the probability of the bad outcome and doom and all of that well I'm I think people start off in a life of you know orientation optimism or doom yeah and yeah maybe for the time they're like seven years old holding on to this I'm a tech

1:50:54optimist that's what I do and if I wasn't a tech office so I wouldn't be investing in tech companies and there's a question of whether these people should be building or working there or forfeiting their equity if they really believe they're doing something that's bad or evil um in my opinion like the world is getting a little tired of some of this because you know we had the gloom and doom about jobs all jobs are going away there's no human jobs could still happen but all the evidence as of today to the contrary every single piece of evidence there's you can look through you can be in short homes you know look with your magnifying glass you can't plan any evidence that AI is causing creating job loss if anything it's creating jobs so okay so they're over one let's say as of now then they're like oh my god the world's gonna end okay well hard to falsify that like AI jobs at least you can falsify you're like no that's not happening false um this one's a little hard to falsify but then I think as a couple people push back today online is well articulate how the world ends because then at least the pre the precepts or the predicates we can start trying

1:51:56to falsify you know and then prove or try to disprove that you know there's some risk there and do you think that the reality is the world is always going to be subject to some risk you know people like to compare to the advent of the nuclear bomb and you know there's a very strong argument it's not you know QED proven but the nuclear bomb in many ways probably made the world more peaceful if you went through the arc of history and like how many citizens died you know as a fraction of the population of the globe in conflict before and after the advent of the you have a pretty strong case it certainly wasn't negative yeah and is it but was that known that would play out that way you know a day long when we dropped you know a nuclear bomb or two in Japan no even you know there's a scene in Oppenheimer where they don't even really know what do we do to the atmosphere and they go to consult with Einstein to make sure it's like I blow up the world and he's like doesn't give him a very compelling like definite answer so you know like the

1:52:59world is free of is not risk-free and I think you know all of us make decisions every single day we drive a car and find a helicopter but a little while that you know take that into account so I don't think a zero defect approach to life really works either for humans but I think that burden is on the people arguing for regulation or slowing progress down of articulating well what goes wrong why and how and so that people can probe and push back and or and try to evaluate and quantify that risk and I have yet to see a compelling answer to that that's not just like oh I know it because I was working on this and it's really dangerous how many of these how many of these ideas do you think that way they're on one another political point even if that was 100% true the idea that politicians are going to make it better is also subject to historical debate yes like if you say we have a world-class problem on our hands would you entrust it to the federal government or to

1:54:02a bunch of private citizens not obvious yeah yeah uh do you think that that um that basically these ideas around pdume end up in the s1 because I would expect them I would expect to anthropic to um actually put this in the s1 as a as a real risk factor people are saying like oh you know the you know what they they got to stop the employees from posting this stuff but if but if it's coming top down yeah it might be just then then the SAC to disclosure it could do well it up in there and it would be it used to be a securities litigator second argue a couple kind of fun points on this you can say hey like if the real risk is the world's going to blow up um buying anthropic shares is no more dangerous or risking it's not a particularly it's not a risk factor associated with the anthropic sure a more nuanced view might be hey if the political environment were to appreciate that no no no could you couldn't you couldn't you make the argument

1:55:06that there's like that that the company could with a runaway AI incur such massive liability that it is a risk to their actual investment that that that's probably fair and there probably will be language like that but it'll be so toned down you most people won't even understand it um you know there's an old Peter Tilley and Lesson here too which is if you have like risk factors you want the most possible risk factors so no one can really tell which one's really important so you might see an anthropic you know prospectus that has hundreds of pages of risks so you can't like isolate oh this is the one I should actually care about but the most acute risk probably would be something like hey we scare enough politicians that yeah you know they implement policy that's particularly in you know that's sort of the impredate but it could it would it could you know constrain our growth and that is you know real risk if they can't control their employee blog posts or ex posts yeah sooner or later is there you know I think people are seeing through

1:56:07some of this you know there there has been significant exposure of the fact that many of these anti-data center you know crusades are being funded by China intentionally by our adversary there is you know real proof that these data centers certainly do not waste energy you know waste water and things like that it's fun as silly it's almost like walking on Q test that doesn't mean that the political cost doesn't have to rebut it but it is kind of a walking on Q test for someone if they really believe that data centers are going to like make the world one out of water somehow yeah yeah it's it it's very ridiculous that the origin of that is like a just a simple calculation error that was off by a couple orders of magnitude and it just ran away before the horse they can use chat GPT now to solve math problems I know but but it did it it it reveals like a different problem which is that like people don't do the calculations they don't they don't even need to they they just go off whatever yeah tell me about your read on the dynamic between effective altruism

1:57:11and venture capital because I think there's a lot of like VCs out there that are just sort of have like generally pretty like down the middle beliefs about the future and they're generally optimistic and then you get you know the pitch from a budding young effective altruist and part of it is like you know this person is just going to be extremely generally at least we've seen points like extremely risk on it does qualify as a pretty good venture investment but there's I feel like now there's been enough of a pattern of blowups that you need to be like kind of wary right where there's like extreme upside you know potentially catast you know your downsides caps as a VCs so you're kind of like if you blow up like it's more your problem than my problem but but but there's so much upside and so I just think that like that specific dynamic there will be like a book written about it you know fast forward 10 years but I'm curious your view on it well I think venture when it's practice as a craft at its best is a matchmaking exercise

1:58:17between founders and a team and a vision and you're sort of views about the world so I think that some types of founders with some beliefs about the world whether you label them you know effective altruism or something else could be a good match for a VCs or I don't know a day and worries about that stuff and would be a bad match for someone I found or someone I'd say so I think that you know the best relationships between a founder and their investors in a consignatory or a board member or when you have alignment kind of double in times between how you think about the world and what's good for society and how the founder does I do not for example I do watch and am friendly with many people who work at prediction markets but I personally don't believe prediction markets are good for society I believe in the Trump quote and actually I actually used the line before he did but there's just another casino for Americans at the moment and I don't think we need more forms

1:59:19of speculation in the United States for normal people and the evidence is that you know 99% of the people who engage in prediction markets are going to lose money and I don't think that's necessarily a positive you know thing either I don't really love sports betting even though I love sports so but that's why I would probably be a bad match for someone who wants to build polymarket even though I like Shane or or Kelsey even you know I hang out of return too but it's just not what I believe that the future of the world makes the world a better place yeah yeah no that makes sense and I would just say that I think there's a lot of investors that have their beliefs about the way the world should be and then are willing to completely discard their values and beliefs to back companies because they're just like well the return is just going to probably be so good I got it and I would say the percentage of investors that will discard their beliefs in order to get returns is like it feels like it's like 80 90 95 percent. I agree I agree with that assessment it's just why do you do what you do is you know in your professional career and at least

2:00:23at KV and the history of founders fund too we wake up and say is this going to have a positive impact in society we have you know more money than we need we have more money to deploy and invest them in need we can be doing lots of things with our time and we want to apply our energies to solving problems that we think would move the world forward you know Peter and Tray have pretty strong filters on this stuff and Vinod and I do and Michael I think all my colleagues at KV do but not that's not for everybody and some people you know work of hedge funds I don't want to work in a hedge fund either. Yeah well thank you so much for coming on the show this is always great to catch up it's been too long. Yeah enjoy that art. Let's make it I missed the first month of you guys know I was like on every day. Yeah yeah hey you're always welcome this came up because I was like we haven't talked Keith it's been way too long it's always good hang. We'll talk to you. Have a great rest of your week. Cheers. Let me tell you about Figma agents meet the canvas your AI agents can now create and modify your Figma files with

2:01:28design system context we have David Perrell here with us live in the TbP and Altradown David good to see you man. Not much hanging out doing the news talking about what do I phone talking about and you were excited for another screen two screens in one yeah yeah I knew it was an Uber over yeah yeah you get in one of course really of course okay the fold yeah he's going to be writing by hand yeah exactly what we're just saying you don't have a bookish look to it yeah you don't need to iPad many anymore yeah yeah all right do you do the the the iPad for the notes when you do an interview have you toyed with that you know how Chris Williamson a lot of people have the iPad there not the full I do the full computer but you know I've actually gone a key to a good interview I've actually gone full smartphone okay I've gone full smartphone I so what I do is yeah if you watch the interviews on the right side I just kind of keep the phone yeah and then what I can do is I can just do quick pulls of like hey check this thing check that thing I feel like if I pull

2:02:32out I feel like if I go on my computer right now it's like oh he's doing something serious but I have pull out my phone yeah now you're like this guy's really just like he's growing reels it feels a little disrespectful but you've gotten over that hump well the other thing is I don't do it live yeah so I do a bunch of editing yeah so I think she might say hey I'm gonna look this up and then I'll I'll hit you I say hey if I'm looking something up just keep talking yeah wrap them on this cool cool cool and and then what I do is I watch every interview back yeah which I've now done 130 so that's that's my game film you know yeah what's been the biggest one's the big room the yeah exactly screen on locked in just locked in sitting there what's been the most recent interview that you that that you came away from being like this is what I want the show to be there's an interview I did with Dana Joya yeah he's Ted Joya's brother you might know the sub-stacker and Dana is just so so well read he lost a son when I lost his first son I want to say to sudden infant death

2:03:32syndrome when he was four to six months old and you can just feel yeah you know our friend Jeremy Giffon has the line where there's pre fall and post fall yes and you can feel when somebody is post fall they sort of wrestled with grief yeah and then you combine that with these really well rent so I flew out to Sonoma we recorded for seven hours chopped into a three hour interview and it was it was phenomenal you know it's funny because you're asking about recent interview and this what I love about YouTube is that interview did okay and then the algorithm found how to distribute it like 15 months in and now it's written so like last month that interview was our most watched interview in terms of watch time and it's two years old wow that's fascinating how much are you thinking about booking guests that can go viral in the YouTube algorithm you're still not with clav anytime soon yeah you know you know there's always like these people who come up on the cost I don't care about that and it's like if you get this person this time you got one of the first interviews you know playing that game no the game I'm trying to play I think Patrick O'Shawnase crafted it's like you know you have these people who are coming on you don't hear a lot of who's

2:04:37the guy who he did the the hedge fund guy with the like John Paul speak slowly Paul Tutor Jones exactly like I want to do interviews like that right like Paul Tutor Jones hasn't done a bunch of podcasts yeah I'm on I don't really care about having something that crushes right away yeah I want I want it to be like the Paris Review Interview series where you look back and I want in 50 60 years yeah it would be like this was snapshot yeah exactly that makes sense but to give to give Patrick even more with his due I feel like he has a couple of products in one in the sense that yes he does those interviews where it's like wow I haven't heard of this person a long time I'm so glad I did this is amazing but then he'll also do like the super timely interview with like Sam Altman about the news and the expectations for that company right then at the turning point yep and then he'll also do you know catch up with Gavin Baker regularly just getting up to speed and so it feels like he has a couple series a couple like okay this person's coming out of stealth and it's Gavin New Baratheat

2:05:41etched and it's the first time you're hearing from this person he's almost breaking the news and I'm wondering how calcified you think about different products if you want to add we've we we have a few we have like a lightning round interview founder young not hasn't done hours and hours of interviews comes on for 10 minutes tell us about we hit the gong another person we might yap with for 30 minutes we might have somebody in studio for an hour we have different products and I'm wondering if you're thinking about where how I write goes yes and whether you want to have different skews within the main feed dude 100% okay so here's what I think about it I want to get the best riders in the world that was my first goal yeah and so like this month is Andy Weir did project Hail Mary Jillian Flynn gone girl Michael Lewis saying glad well like we're like let's get the best yeah yeah you're the reason you're in LA JK Rowling's yacht is in LA is it you saw this right I was here but the way the mystery out mystery out has been unveiled to be a lot but I mean you're gonna get like I'm just so excited for that level of interview to happen soon

2:06:47and so then the game is it's like a T so that you go up you kind of reach the top here and then break down I want to do music I want to do music I want to have screenwriter yes and then just trying to break into that but the thing is we're kind of in a local maxima with the YouTube algorithm sure so this is sort of the grand irony the whole thing I got into this because I love posting yeah I love posting that is my thing like we were like isn't posting on YouTube before posting it kind of is but the people who I like really feel like kindred spirit with it's like you guys like you you know you had the YouTube channel like you're kind of going there but then what happened but then what happened was um the novelist the poets they were the best interviews and they were the ones that that that crashed yeah and so now I'm in this like weird situation where like that's what I do yeah uh but I like I don't know but it's just being a NIM cell in a particular community it's niche but that's valuable what's it's NIM cell NIM cell is niche internet micro celebrity it's like it's like you know if we go to YC down a day we'll get recognized but like we sat affect that we'll get us out of that but we can walk around anywhere else you don't get

2:07:50recognized like there are certain areas where like there'll be some cooking influence or we're like every shaft knows them or like an auto influence or we're like every car guy cars and coffee everyone will stop Doug Jimuro but like you know he doesn't get stopped if he just goes to like a Costco right yeah it's just the modern the modern incantation of the celebrity as we've created these pockets but um interesting what uh what are you excited about in terms of uh actual growth you're growing on YouTube you're also growing on Instagram gives them stats for us I want to hit the gong what you got you got some stats I got some stats yeah I mean how is that how's the product doing been a crazy air so we're gonna do six million views on Instagram this month YouTube three million on YouTube no that's been good that's been good but the big thing I think this one deserves the big gong so we started a uh a YouTube channel I found this guy named Sean Quirk crazy stories um and we

2:08:52made this pilot episode with him last name is Quirk Quirk Quirk Quirk that's what I call him Quirk Quirk he's the cultural tutor the cultural tutor yes and so I found this Twitter account 2022 and I was like this account reps like this is so good and so it was a non and I was like hey we got to talk on the phone so I get on with him and I expect like 65 years old he's ready about culture and like ball arts and like buildings and he's like 24 years old and I'm like what he's like yeah you know I live in the north of England my parents just got divorced I have no money I'm like cool like what do you do for work he goes I just quit my job at McDonald's and I'm like okay that's a little bit weird he's like yeah that's why I started this cultural tutor thing because I'm gonna tutor people in culture to make some money terrible way to make money and then he goes yeah I'm gonna go join the British military if it doesn't work I've been my dream to die for my country and I'm just like I've known for ten minutes like about as long as I've been on the show right here for you know today and I'm like dude that is a bad idea so I just raised some money for my writing business at the time and I made him a writer and residence okay he had a hundred thousand

2:09:56followers at the time yeah three years later one point six mil on Twitter we're in London last year walking around he's giving me a tour every day I'm like dude you can write well but you are an amazing speaker you are the next board ain't sure so I said hey let's make a pilot episode put in a hundred fifty grand of my own money I really believe in this guy and we went to Hollywood they said no we're not interested go make a pilot episode so we had a pilot Tommy lead the director in the back right there there we go and we publish it from a account with zero subs it was our goal to get a hundred thousand views and then go pitch Hollywood and we did a hundred thousand views in eighteen hours and then five point six million views now and just from that one video almost a quarter million subs are you optimistic about being able to break into Hollywood this year has been like the crossover year with markiplier obsession back rooms right like Hollywood is seeing that they can print on adaptations of internet but you need Hollywood do you know this is now you walk in with the your pilots like I shot your

2:10:59your freaking pilot yeah yeah but then it's like do you actually need them can you figure out a way to this is the driving question my life right now yeah this is we're trying to figure it out I mean we went to we went to one of the major studios here yesterday we had a meeting with them this is what Hollywood tells us they want exclusivity of person or exclusivity of place sure so if you can go film in the sistine chapel and other people can't they love that and then if you're you're like hey Brad Pitt's really interested in architecture let's have Brad Pitt be the host they also love that yeah they're like we'll give you money for that Brad Pitt and the sistine chapel and they're like one more change it needs to be a low budget horror low budget horror we're just gonna have a one note no but I don't think I I don't think we're gonna go that route no no I mean I would I don't think we're gonna go their pitches in compelling yeah well yeah I mean the thing is is that what is the actual pitch it's it's capital and then we'll get you yeah I'm well I

2:12:01would say even more like in what way is a streaming service exciting I think the streaming service is exciting two ways one you have Amazon HBO Apple whatever they can give you budget to make something awesome that's the first thing budget the second thing is prestige and you know I think the root of prestige translates to illusion and I just always try to remind myself of that because YouTube is you know you can really get views now yeah they are not going they're not in the business right now of talent development they will attach Brad Pitt but they're not gonna allow you to spend their money building the cultural tutor into the next Anthony Bourdain you're gonna have to do that on your own platform and then when you're ready and you've ready to rest on your laurels they'll be like welcome well this was finally open so this was funny about that so Sunday I was at a Sundance in Utah not at the festival but just at the just at the hotel and that's where Robert Redford started the film festival yeah and so as you walk through the main room they just got all these photos of old Hollywood and it was so cool it was like a bunch of wrist taking and all that

2:13:03and what happened the reason why Hollywood is boring and the reason why a lot of the modern world is boring and I credit Derek Thompson with making this observation is the money qualification of our world okay what happened is things are boring now because we've gotten smart yes and it's they've gotten good at pricing risk and all that sort of stuff but the problem is then you end up getting Spider-Man 74 Lord of the Ring 7 rather than some new show and that's just the state of our world the funny thing is that the later I feel that I feel the stagnation we're also the internet will strike back and also the latest Spider-Man made a billion dollars so so like the irony is like I feel the same you know a marvel fatigue that everyone does and yet the latest Spider-Man was a fantastic but here's a counter example like Nathan Nathan Nathan Fielder yeah like he's on an incredible run and I feel like that is a set of new ideas

2:14:05and and forms of content right where that are like that are meaningfully novel that are rooted in this like talent so I would almost argue there's not a shortage like anybody can make media now it's cheaper than it's ever been production and distribution and like as much as you can argue like all the capital is flowing into these like big bets Spider-Man 12 at the same time for talented people it's like the best time in the world to do anything I agree and in some ways like Nathan Fielder is like the best modern instantiation of like being yourself in Hollywood and like finding that mix of commercial appeal and and new ideas where like for me I'm more excited to see the new Elizabeth Holmes movie than any I'm if you if I could only watch like the

2:15:07Odyssey or the new Nathan do you see the Odyssey yeah yeah I did what do you think I thought it was a good movie is a good movie yeah I liked it it was good it was a lot I don't think it's like a rewatch it every year like the dark night yeah that was my take so I got to see the Chinese theater which if you yeah we went there we saw the amazing place to watch the movie holy cow no you don't like it absolutely not I came out of that I was like you got to be kidding me guys how do we end up how do we end up universal is you're much closer to the screen and I sit same same size iMac screen but you're closer no but you have to walk out of the theater the theater is fine I thought it was I I didn't a pre I didn't personally like that it was grungy and and dirty feeling but the story I did feel like I've done my way but the second that you get out of it you're it's like you know you're you're watching this beautiful film work of art and then you come out and it's like the worst place on earth you know sunset full of art completely completely brutal

2:16:08Hollywood is so city that's been of my biggest takeaway being here what is going on always has been that's like they I didn't realize yeah it's crazy right because you're just like wow it's my dream to go to Hollywood and then you get here you're like this one is like I'd like to go to West Hollywood I'd like to go to Beverly Hills what's on your wrist oh good question I just went to the Lucas Museum of Narrative Art yeah so this museum opens September 22nd okay so it's just kind of like these previews preview tours dude so good yeah oh my goodness what's good about it okay so the reason I have is that not is the whole project not like a massive white pill that we can still make honestly it is such such a massive white pill the only thing that bums me out is San Francisco and Chicago said no but then LA got it so well is that not victory for a lot of where they saying no like this needs to be in LA this this it would just be wrong for us to take this or they were just like yeah the idea is kind of mid like it would suck to have a billion dollar museum it's like four thousand pieces of

2:17:14art and George Lucas' collection 13,000 at the exit or at the museum yeah yeah only six of them on loan yeah and so I thought that what I was gonna walk into was like Star Wars yeah yeah that's actually not what it is so this is what the narrative art museum gets which is modern art most of what you see kind of stinks because it's super abstract and like what is going on yeah this is the best non canonical collection of modern art museum I've seen and what I mean by that is I think the moment has a better collection okay but at the moment you see the canon pieces of modern art you see everything from Van Gogh's Starry Night to you know Cubism to then stuff that comes out of World War 2 this is very different this is a lot of paintings that I did not know and almost every painting feels like a freeze frame in a movie and you almost feel like somebody stopped it so the lighting is super dramatic there's like these dramatic scenes then there's a whole range of styles and then the other thing for people like Norman Rockwell it's must be one of the largest collections of Norman Rockwell

2:18:17paintings in the world that's great yeah love it and then also the way that they organize the museum is super different so usually it's all around jargon or time period this is different this is around family school like friendship stuff like that or specific artists so because of that it doesn't feel like heady as a museum it feels like the kind of art that'll be both good and supermars mass market that's cool almost like Star Wars itself is there at least one Chihuahua uh you see any Star Wars only sought so this way I have this okay I just went and I went up to the front desk yeah and I was like this is so good can I leave go on TV and then come back yeah and she was like fine we're making except okay so we're booking it back to doubt okay there's two boxes and I said you I was said I'll be I will send you one Chihuahua I want that I see this modern I love Star Wars um what do you think of Mark Zuckerberg's new castle you know the critique is that tech wealth is not going into beautiful things which is true and he just bought a

2:19:19beautiful castle in Ireland and it feels like the beginning you know I think the stripe founders bought a castle in Ireland yeah there's there's the seeds and I think that they're I understand the critique of tech wealth is not going into beautiful things we're not getting the museum the libraries but I think that there is a world where wait until they're 45 they'll buy the castles they'll get sick of them at 65 the kids won't want to live there and then they'll be museums and libraries because that's what happens when you renovate an 18th century castle yeah museum stop wanting to pay the five million dollars a year to maintain it the museum of zucky's bunkie all these what what'll then be antique firearms that are like halo style yeah you really have you really have that on you really have that in 206 you have that you have the the good supply of if he has a need learn we don't know about it that's a that's a major issue

2:20:22is interesting those two examples both of them bought existing places they yes they didn't okay so buildings important they did not build them okay like you look at her castle yeah William Randolph first I'm actually I love the story of first castle and I and I both aspire to personally embark on such a crusade that I die with it unfinished like he did and also I encourage other people to take on projects that are so unwieldy that they will ultimately never be never see the fruits of their labor and only the next generation will yeah I mean beyond that you know it's really easy to talk about castles and all this isn't stuff like that what about just like the tech initiative to make the panhandle like one of the most beautiful parks in America sure you know what I mean are like let's restore filmore street I heard of project that's exactly that's like four or five blocks of filmore like we I think that the beauty conversation is way too much about these giant big yeah you got a start small corgi cafe corgi they're starting with the cafe you scale that up corgi library corgi museum corgi central park

2:21:27will save the world could happen you never know they're reinsured now well this was so great about Newark like I think it was as John Paulson the investor I think so I made a lot of money in the financial crisis he's the one yeah exactly one guy but he donated a hundred million dollars to Central Park yeah yeah yeah it's cool okay the simple stuff for the people yeah what what about on the overall architectural malaise and just this you know it is there a linkage from housing prices we can't build anything stagnation and the critiques from you and the cultural tutor on oh that's interesting you just so I think that the way that people see it is something like this we can't build and because of that we need to make it cheaper and uglier and it's like a cost problem actually there's a new article in works and progress that basically makes this point that one of the reasons why it's hard to build is that things aren't beautiful enough yeah so like

2:22:28if I look at yeah why go through the hassle yeah and and and and also for the neighbors they're like I don't want something new being built but ugly yeah make my neighborhood less less nice yeah it's gonna be a square box and so it's this weird kind of compounding loop where things are ugly so then there's more regulation then there's more regulation so it's more expensive then we need to save money so things get ugly and maybe there's a way to reverse that where you have nice buildings and people are excited about building a little bit more and you begin to change that yeah I've been there's some there's there's things coming down the pipeline I was hanging out with a friend of a friend who's an architect based in Europe and he was just showing me like all the stuff that he has in the works and to me I got incredibly excited because I was like every single one of these things you know he's a rising star every single one of these things will end up being in every mood board like they are like net new creations that are inspired by the past but also just new ways for buildings to exist and I have another friend who does does real estate development in the

2:23:33American Southwest and he is showing me things that he's actively building right now and I'm like that entryway to the home is gonna be iconic and so a lot of these are like I still in some ways I think you're gonna see like the world is so Instagram driven now that there are beautiful things being built purely for the feed to basically like stop people and to get attention and I think that I'm excited to see what you're pulling up oh you got it I'm trying to get them to pull it up I got to show you this yes so I think that the side by side format will change the world it already is and all the side by side format is super common on Twitter super common on Instagram all it is is you show one old thing versus one new thing and you just say what happened yeah and this is one of the formats that we've all seen that no one has taken seriously yeah so this is uh oh hold on okay we got to cut that for the clip so we're gonna pull it up a big board

2:24:39into old home alone house here we go here we got both of them we're in old home alone house scroll scroll up scroll up this is 1990 1990 this is the old home long that we all love iconic yeah okay wallpaper carpets on the stairs character lots of warmth yeah what happened now scroll down this is what they did to it stunning stunning and brave okay so white the different shades of white so much white so this so I mean look at the rug I mean who would be bold enough well so here is what happened so yeah there's a few things that changed one is that housing went from something that people would build for themselves to something that was done by real estate asia sure and and and real estate companies and so housing became a market that you thought of as something liquid yeah and then you basically need to increase the how generic something is so that it basically is a more liquid asset right and then the other thing is a lot of these projects are

2:25:43built by people who won't live in them yeah and so they sort of see the world through a spreadsheet yeah a spreadsheet that's exactly what it's called a spreadsheet it's called a spreadsheet so they see the world through a spreadsheet and uh yes but when I look at this I think buying opportunity by this and and remodel it to look like the home home one the home can't be that hard to put carpet down on the staircase right uh I like this I think it's called pre-modern this is generally the the like what what this is referred to yeah yeah you're saying something that's very real I have friend of mine bought a place years ago invested a bunch of money into it and and I think like legitimately for 99 percent of people made it way worse like I know what you're talking about yeah for him you know for him he's like he's like yeah I guess it's what's going to be too much to go there everybody like some of the rooms I'm just like this is horrific and and you need and it actually even though he invested a lot of money into the property you actually have to deduct that basically an equal amount

2:26:47from the new purchase price which is going to be lower than what they paid because you have to rip all this stuff yeah you like blue you made your house blue but but I just but I do think that I think Mac like maximalism is a hundred percent coming back yeah and and you're seeing this in um think of what I'm doing it's like even look look at car look at cars like cars are a wonderful way to express yourself and just enjoy the road and it's this like symbol of freedom and all these things and cars got very boring to the point where if somebody was like spicing it up they're like I got a green car yeah and a tan seats and then it's like well now there's a hole for years there's been Instagram accounts dedicated to this combination which I think is beautiful I have a green car with brown seats but it's almost to the point where it's no longer even a way to express yourself it's just like it's as basic to me as like a black car right and so I've been I've been intentionally going the other direction I'm I'm in the process of speccing a car that

2:27:53is like a rose metallic and and it's like completely insane I've shown it to some people and they're like oh yeah we need a car that looks like a NASCAR that you guys can drive around with all the sponsor logos right there and and I and I think that you're not just naturally seeing a shift people are rejecting minimalism and I actually already as much as as much as this is happening again I don't think you're gonna ever get back to the spec out like the spec house is naturally designed to appeal to the it's like I view a spec house like the one you're showing here basically as like a canvas on which someone else can come on and paint and it allows you to have that liquid the thing is I'm not pro maximalism or anti minimalism I'm just pro quality and anti-crap yeah and I think that what has happened is we're like okay here's minimalism and we're like okay minimalism is cool like Johnny I've really understands minimalism well the Japanese really understand

2:28:54minimalism well yeah but then what happens I got a house I got a house to I got a house to sell you if you don't really have to sell you end up with that meme of the guy who just has his mattress in the room and the house with like the little video game like yeah the old man male living situation hey you know you got to invest in that guy would you like the glass or the cup for whatever you're drinking watch these sheets in six months do you know the what you got Jordy do you know the the architect john lotner no oh you're placing Alaska you blew the punchline you blew the punchline but yeah the the john lotner john lotner's the protege of frank Lloyd Wright has created some of the to me the most beautiful homes in in the u.s there's there's even like this weird sort of like roadside motel out in in Palm Desert area that you can go stay and that's a that's a lot there I recommend

2:29:56you check it out I think you would enjoy it but I track john lotner homes that are for sale and there's two right now that stand out one is in Pasadena which is like seemingly like an extremely at the time it would have just been like I'll take one home please you know it's like a two bedroom two bath but then there's this other one that's that's only 1.37 million potentially a great starter home get it and uh this one Alaska one issue it's in Alaska that's done the issue that's it and and so this is two acres you got a john lotner an architecturally significant home in nature and I think you got a I think you got to go for I think you got to like you know take some of your own yeah Madison and I want I think you need to be no no no this is red this is red fish this is for sale um this for sale 1.3 I've been extremely tempted just because I'm like yeah it's not a group chat see if we can pull 1.37 you're a funky too yeah yeah it's funky bill this would be good for like a

2:31:01TBPN satellite satellite look at this look at this wood wood wood paneled interior it's like every material in this home was actually designed to last or there's room for the Christmas tree there yeah indoor waterfall if thing um so anyways what what I'm hoping to see is the the young john john lotner that just build a couple just dedicate your life to building a couple hundred homes like this but I but I think that the truth is that that we look back and we look throughout history and we see home we we see things that were built like this and we're and people are like we you know we got a return to like that era of design but the truth is that for every one of these homes there was a hundred a thousand that were just cookie cutter the thing is I don't want to return to any era of design I want us in 2026 to have a sweet era that like reflects who we are what we value that like projects a bold vision for the future that's like let's go and we

2:32:04should have all these awesome visions of what tomorrow can look like and what I love about talk about homes and like making nice streets is like that is a way for every single human being to like put their footprint their you know their stamp of optimism and like promise for a better picture into the world yeah and uh that's why I think this is important yeah uh what's the p-do we have about 10 minutes no I want to go through the rest of the show and tell what else do you have for us in the stack the team has the pdf you shared so are there any other images that you'd like to share with us by by the way we definitely don't we do we're we're we're re-arranging the schedule okay what's your rich men from type will be joining us at 150 after Jim O'Reilly from Charleston AI have you seen uh the new Obama library I have yes you will be on a presidential people are going back and forth about it yeah let's get it up on screen you're a fan you're a fan because because it's because it's clearly a data source data set it's a set it's a set it's

2:33:05a set of aliens no I just source inside I'm generally in fit I love uh brutalism just that period I think it's beautiful when can contrasted right with with nature yeah here's the thing with brutalism okay good brutalism rocks yeah but a good style is works when average people do it and so the problem with brutalism is the variance is so big like most brutalism absolutely is awful and tyrannical but like you're saying you get some Brazilian brutalism some DC brutalism and when it works it is absolutely awesome yeah every time I think brutalism I go to a bot a bot and there's something like count compound you know I'm talking about the other something lot in house looked it's very brutalist I lived in a house that looked exactly like it's crazy you were here to prep wait would you do a practice would you practice in there in case you got the call no no keep it in cash so the new Obama library this is where uh this was built in 1893 okay so the

2:34:07Obama library this is for the Chicago world's fair there's three photos here and these were in 1893 which you have a yaga and uh basically these were temporary houses so they were made out of plaster they were not made to laugh the center one was temporary that Chicago winners it was for the world's fair so like it was a big deal don't get me around but I think it says so much about who we are like first of all I'm not sure what we could build this now yeah and there's no way that we would do something temporary like this now yeah okay uh yeah what what what else is going on how how many other photos do you have we don't need to go through all of them oh I want to I want to know the story of the uh well so what we did in the uh yeah so I think this another actually here's one that has a personal story so this is uh San Francisco when I was a kid I don't know if you guys have walked here when I was a kid this is uh beautiful photo where I would walk wow and I used to like marvel at these chains yeah I think these chains are sick yeah and also like this the kind of world

2:35:11I want to be in where like you know it's by the bay there's always the big cargo ships coming by yeah and I'd always used to you know check out these chains from up my mom would say you judge those you're gonna get tetanus and uh you know it's time to replace the chains which is fine and they replace them with this and like this is the thing you know each one of these is not a big deal but if you have 10 or a hundred thousand decisions like this in a country and a culture you really stamp out the soul and vitality the spirit of who we are yeah and that's what I want to fight against you know yeah yeah rough uh what's going on in the world with what's what's strong with stainless steel well it just lacks character well I think it's because it's new yeah what happens when that gets patina and starts giving you tetanus will you be satisfied then well you'll be satisfied then I think we could have done better we could have done something with like little golden gate bridges in it something that would tie to the aesthetic of the space we

2:36:13like uh the weave it on monogram yeah we talk about costs there's an artist somewhere that would happily do this at cost sure sure to make something else yeah you know maybe a safety thing you trip over the chain but you don't do this but again yeah you're getting into the our word regulation I think they want to keep people from surfing mmm they don't want you to discover the thrill no they want to walk it and continue building your startup because as we know if you go surfing you'll be less productive so you got to stop people from surfing in San Francisco they got to get the share price up uh how to go near founder his book is called let my people go surfing oh really it's like the whole premise they're like yeah we're going to a company and that's why after we get to a billion dollar one trillion yeah patagonia would have been the first trillion dollar company it could have been it could have been it little less surfing got lock in but yeah and then we got the same thing happening logos yeah let's see it's the same pattern everywhere and this is what this has to change soon though this isn't this is an opportunity you you have to imagine that there are plenty of

2:37:18brands that see this I don't want to be a part of the main I'm going to go a different direction the reason why I've just utterly astonished by this and think about it every day is I think that aesthetics people think of like little icing on the cake you know like you put on a tie now you'll look good or something like that but the thing is like a society's aesthetics represent the the spirit of a time like it's the outer reflection of the inner spirit of an age and all this is how we see who we are what we value and the thing is when I look at these designer logos you know it's easy to say oh there's no style there really what you see is a culture that values efficiency and conformity above all else and I just I don't want that to be who we are and also kind of global sameness like I want a world where there's like radical diversity you go to different places they feel completely different and that the things that are made have the unique character of the people making them that's the world I want to live in that's the world that inspires me how do you get into

2:38:21a museum if it's closed there's actually a hack for this okay so if you go to Paris for some spend a decade developing a personal spend spend a decade building a reputation of someone who cherishes millions of millions of views on one simple hack so there is a hack for this so if you go to Paris I was in Paris like I'm okay I have to go buy a flight to Paris any any city any city New York LA Chicago any city and you show up often they'll say hey you can't get into the museum you need tickets in advance a ticket at most museums cost like $30 so if you're going with a friend's like $60 and you'll say can I get in there's there'll be like there's no way you'll say can members get in today they'll be like no problem you say how much is a membership $120 so if you just pay $60 more $30 per person you can basically get into any museum in the world no your answer is just pay one simple trick it's just about the

2:39:22membership which is not advertised yeah that's a good point but but the new look the new Lucas some like going the back door walk you know like dress up like new Lucas museum is also I don't think if you're a man they're not I'll take if I walk up there and say I'll take one membership please they'll be like come back when we're open yeah yeah yeah yeah you got to get a job that's the real hard you got a job you got to get the job there that's for build a great brand build a great cry like my first you can do anything moment was sneaking down at warrior games how season tickets convince my dad to get season tickets to the kid we're all the way up in the third day again you paid to get it like try to sneak in buy some tickets you got the cheapest tickets I sat I sat outside of the first deck for six games went to every game season I just snuck through okay that they are this is a good turn around got really good at getting the free pizzas and the t-shirts I knew like where the t-shirts were like most likely to go okay I wonder coming out of the t-shirt gun

2:40:26yeah okay actually my my my ultimate hack for sports was when I was a kid I was obsessed with catching baseballs at games so you know you can get the baseballs off the bat yeah but what I would do is I go to the stadium I'd get the away team hat new way team shirt then sit by the opposing team dugout less come out of it I'd have to wriggle feel that Darren Oliver starting pitcher I knew the name of Darren Oliver the bullpen catcher walk away with six baseball six I was like a fifth grade thank you so much for coming to the show all right boys thank you great to see you in a two-baka picture yeah please day I will tell everyone about Cisco critical infrastructure for the AI era unlock seamless real-time experiences and new value with Cisco and I'll also tell you about the New York Stock Exchange want to change the world raise capital at the New York Stock Exchange up next we have Jim Riley from Charleston AI you've seen him on the internet we've discussed him

2:41:32multiple times through with his partnership with San Blanc Monaco and now we are pleased to be joined by Jim Riley from Charleston AI Jim how are you doing welcome to the show I'm I'm doing really really well thank you thank you very much thank you for taking the time to come chat with us I would love to know a little bit of the backstory I'm sure a lot of people have seen the viral video but what what is your career story how did you get into this particular business and then of course we can talk about where it's going from here okay well I've been doing different things for many many years you know the only boss I ever had was my father other than when I was a bus boy and worked in a movie theater wow so it was a family business I grew up and I did many things yeah and where do I go from there recently yeah what got you what got you at least interested in AI yeah okay well my partner we started this produce delivery business story pandemic because the

2:42:36farmers couldn't sell produce there were no farmers markets and people were kind of locked down so we saw a need we saw something that we could do together and he's the geek I'm not and so we put together you know delivering produce directly to people's houses we put it right on on their you know front porch by the door our model is that we deliver it we they don't come pick it up we deliver seven days a week uh 365 days a year and so then he's yeah did this business grow out of that yes well we're partners in rainbow packaging and he's always been into uh AI you know he was an engineer from IBM so he's like I said he's a geek and this is one of his like pet projects he's really into AI so he got he infected me a little bit with it and we saw the opportunity we thought it was time let's open up a storefront that's what we have here is basically a storefront

2:43:39even though it's a nice office yeah to just introduce people to AI help them where they need it and that's what we've been told we started January 1st amazing so January 1st what what who were the who were your first like customers clients that were coming in when when we originally saw the viral video you know it made so much sense to me to actually put something like a storefront because everyone in Charleston is I'm sure reading about AI watching videos online some of them are excited some of them are scared and to give people the opportunity to come in it yeah to give people the opportunity to come in and just talk to somebody who's actually in their local community and learn about it actually makes a ton of sense yeah right in the beginning was slow I have to admit it's taken a while but what I've come to realize this is the fud period which is fear uncertainty and doubt when it comes to AI and people gradually getting over it so my point he can do the elaborate stuff

2:44:41he can do the you know systems integration I'm the one who can talk to people and tell them how it's benefiting me hmm and that's what I do do you see more people coming in with sort of a consumer lens on they want to know how to use AI products in their personal lives or is it mostly other businesses in the Charleston combination both okay okay so like I'm pretty good at talking to people and I'm asking you using AI so you know I don't want to plug it but my favorite is open AI work right now it's fantastic so I'll tell people about my little experiences how I spent save time by using it and they said really so I'll say here load chat GPT you know play with it for a week or two and I'll come back and I'll show you how it can benefit you and mostly you know this small business owners so it's easy for them to you know adapt to it I mean a lot of people would like to do it in my opinion but they don't have time and it's so used to doing what they do

2:45:46that this is just not natural to yeah and then the other side of the corner the people that have the largest size businesses who are really into AI so they spend two or three days a two three hours a day doing it and then they realize they fall behind on their work and so that that's why they need us to come in and help them you know put it together and make it work for them what is your business model do you charge people hourly for training sessions or do you work on affiliate commission if you refer someone to a particular product no we're just we're like vendor neutral we will work with any anybody's AI you know my partner will learn it and he'll install it and it our customers choose the AI they want sure and we just help them make it work so training implementation correct and you know we charge the first business free yeah we're not you know you come in sit down let's talk about it see what you want what you need and you know

2:46:49we'll come up with a plan for them do you think the model will be scalable do you think you'll be able to hire technicians and educators and other markets and set up similar franchises absolutely yes that's exciting I think it has appeal yeah the time is you know the time is now we have a few years and AI is changing so drastically so quickly in my opinion you know and people can use it and the other thing I noticed like with individuals we take this open AI work which I refer to it as I I went away on vacation for a few days and I'd get up at five I normally get up at four so I slept in late and then for two hours I would do my work in five days I did more than I would do in six months previous so that's sold me yeah you know so I have an agent that works for me every day and if I don't have her working on something then that's my fault that's my you know

2:47:52my bed yeah and uh it's just I find it fabulous I think it's tremendous and with that too that I notice personally is that I'd be uptight with I got to do this I got to do that um I'm sure it on time I'm thinking about it but now to say I companion my she does it and I'm free to think about other things during the course of the day yeah I'm freed up and I think a lot of people once they adapt it and start using it they're going to be the same way they won't be so tight and so uh you know bother with what they think they have to do because it's already done or it's being worked on what's uh what's business been like since the video that broke the internet which was a lot of attention people stopping by you know Sunday you know I work seven days a week so Sunday and we still continue our produce business so you know we have customers there we got to satisfy so I come in early pack take pack go deliver and then I start working you know

2:48:53contacting people responding to emails and you know people stop by randomly we're in Charleston and we're going back to Florida we're in Charleston we're going back to Charlotte yeah come on in let me give you a little tour let me talk to you tell me about your story what is it that's great I like to talk to people myself yeah what what are the most common concerns that people cite when they're talking to you what what what are they worried about what are they nervous about in terms of AI mostly unknown fears you know and they you know they read something they hear something and somebody said and they're not they're not real so until they get to know it hold it see it and use it they'll have that but I'm trying to break that barrier down you know and kind of infect them with uh you know the benefits of it yeah that's good how much do you wish you had today's AI when you were starting your career and your family business I can't do that it's not realistic

2:49:55it's so grounded I mean because did I have it I wouldn't be here now talking to you that's true you'd be retired you know I had to I had experience everything I experienced to get to this moment yeah all my mistakes all my in my failures my victories things I did right things I did wrong but you know I needed old to do all that and I know I can save a lot of time and be more efficient by using my agent in the morning yeah my AI agent yeah uh when's when's the second location opening up how how aggressive do you guys want to get around expansion or you still kind of dialing in the the curriculum well everything has to be done it's proper time and place um this has to be up and running functioning and then we can devote a little time to the next one I believe there's going to be demand for it I believe there is demand for it and now that it's arriving at the point where AI is being more accepted by people and being used they're still confused and AI

2:50:58is changing so much with all these different applications they have they're going to need some help so I want to get a firm foundation and then we talk about expanding yeah do you do you pay much attention to the to the conversation around AI fear and doom and safety that's happening you know primarily in in San Francisco or do you kind of ignore all that mumbo jumbo no it's noise in my opinion yeah I'm looking at the benefit if I spend an hour two hours and it takes here six to seven hours worth of work I don't have to worry about that I'm not I can enjoy life I could spend more time in a moment and weren't having my head filled with things that are not going to happen that may happen but now it's done so next yeah that's a good good mindset great mindset we're congratulating yeah this has been amazing you're welcome on the show anytime let us know however we can help if there's any AI founders that you want to meet there's a good chance that that we've

2:51:58spoken to them at some sort we'd love to we'd love to support and hopefully we can we can stop by the store at some point please do you're always welcome thank you so much and Charles is a nice city to visit yeah I've heard the restaurants are really good fantastic amazing and a people are friendly I love it you can see that it's great to meet you Jim thanks so much for coming on and congrats on all the success have a great rest of your week thank you so much I really appreciate it have a wonderful day we'll talk to you soon goodbye let me tell you about CrowdStrike your businesses AI their business is securing it CrowdStrike secures AI and stops breaches amazing story amazing mindset yeah and I've seen enough give him 200 on a billion there are some wild which I really enjoy so thanks everyone who's tuning in and chiming in with some fantastic takes about what's going on we have Fletcher Richmond from type the co-founder and CEO here building a shared AI workspace welcome to the show what we're going on sorry for the next stop we got caught

2:53:04up with David Pral he brought whole show and tell for us we had to go through with it but we have to of course talk with with Jim Riley who I would already suggest you should pursue some type of partnership with anyways introduce yourself and the company yeah nice meet you guys thanks for having me funny enough I actually go to the same gym as David so that's a small world moment of the day yeah that's great who who lives heavier but I can't disclose that yeah that's I got a tell us about the business what do you build them yeah so type as you mentioned it shared workspace for teams to build with AI a lot of work right now and AI still happening very single player mode people are working with cloud or chat GPT on their individual computer and that's not really how businesses work and so we make it really easy to take that work starting in cloud or in chat GPT and push it up into a shared workspace where you're all actually building together crazy as it seems multiplayer AI still isn't really solves yeah are you trying to narrow in on a particular

2:54:08type of work whether it's code that's generated the blender 3d models that we saw spread sheets like there are collaborative environments that are point solutions for each of these to some degree get hub sort of collaborates with code but how do you see finding a a beach head or is it important to be sort of omnipresent across the organization yeah so we're focusing more on non technical teams okay think that the engineering teams have a lot of this pretty figured out like you mentioned they've been doing these workflows for a very long time yeah but the non technical teams that are suddenly all now writing code that were used to be writing code they don't know what GitHub is they don't know how to deploy to versatile they don't know how to do a lot of this stuff and so we've just given them these magical agents that can do it all but they need tooling to actually make that work mm-hmm what are you targeting in terms of early adopter do you want to go into new companies that don't have anything to rip out faster moving startups for early adoption or are you going to go do

2:55:14it out in the fortune 500 and try and get someone to you know either add this on to all the other tools they're paying for or maybe rip something out yeah so what we found at the very beginning you got a couple people you can just use cloud it's not a big deal so that's not really a pain point we've been targeting I'd say more than 25 to a couple hundred employee range has been our sweet spot so far I know you know a lot about this space interestingly the direct to consumer e-commerce space oh yeah those teams have just been loving it it is I think one of the best use cases for agents if you kind of think about the business and what it is it's a series of pretty structured inputs hey I have this landing page I run these ads yep I have this Amazon listing it runs this stuff yep and then that comes out I need to order more inventory because this ad is doing really well yep and the whole loop just kind of runs and so agents are it's crazy what you do in some of these e-con businesses yeah yeah yeah we talked to Sean Frank at the ridge and yeah every every e-con business is like okay there's the churn spreadsheet and there's the there's the script for

2:56:18conversion and there's something that synthesizes all of our performance marketing and then we have all of our influencer ads over here and how much we're spending and and the opportunity to bring it all together is huge George when did you when did you actually start the company we started a year ago so we were just obsessed with this multiplayer AI concept I've been crazy enough it's weird to say now but spending about a decade building in that space of collaboration chat yeah exactly and I built a company before this that was acquired by Slack or sorry that Slack was an investor and it was acquired by Lassian okay open AI was a was a user of it was called help so I've been thinking about how do people collaborate in this in this chat environment for a really long time and this just felt like the next generation of tools was necessary because we've got these agents now and it's just a totally different way to work very cool give us a funding news tell us about the news yeah how much did you raise yeah we raised four million bucks and he's back as well out of the west coast and my buddies matched it come from Colorado so

2:57:26Colorado awesome there as well love those guys very cool we're gonna we'll get the team on it give it a spin yeah you guys should play around I think you'd like it that'd be awesome awesome yeah great to meet you and we'll see you in the next round see you next meet you okay let me tell you about shop by speaking of D to C e commerce Shopify is the commerce platform that grows with your business lets you sell in seconds online in store on mobile on social and marketplaces and now with AI agents uh Jordi do we have time to tell the story of the of the heist the thieves they rated absolutely museum yeah we'll see it tomorrow see it tomorrow uh it's been an honor teaser privilege little teaser i mean today today this is this is tvpn at its best yeah and Mike we got a my opinion we got Jim Jim or Riley Jim or Riley Mikey up a hot AI sound round coming in you see got everything little living living the dream yeah yeah about the the current thing the doom

2:58:31the new iPhone all this let us know what you think are you picking one up leave us five stars on apple podcast and Spotify sign up for our newsletter tvpn.com and we will see you tomorrow yeah 11 a.m pacific sharp that will be Thursday 100 it will be 105 days until king in the castle king in the castle come on you