Fruitfly Hard Takeoff, Washington on AI Risk, 𝕏 Timeline Reactions | Thijs Simonian, Alex Heath & Guy Oseary, Mitesh Agrawal

0:00You watching TVPN today is Friday September 11th, 2026. Walt Woll coverage in the Wall Street Journal remembering 25 years ago the cover of the Wall Street Journal every single article except for one was about of course the World Trade Center, the headline that day was Terrorist Destroy World Trade Center, hit Pentagon in raid with hijack jets, bin Laden is on here. The only story that attacks raise fear of a recession, very interesting time capsule highly recommend picking up a copy of the journal today and taking a trip down in memory of the tragedy. The one piece of news that broke through this day that was not related to the terrorist attack was Xerox reached an equipment financing agreement with GE Capital that will let Xerox erase about 5 billion of debt. Very very ugly. Every other story I mean the market was closed.

1:01Actually the internet got a very interesting shout out here. It says telecom systems were strained as terrorist attacks in New York and Washington knocked out telephone wireless services across the Northeast. The internet proved most the most reliable way to communicate following the attacks as the phone system sagged from severed lines and an extraordinary volume of calls. They were executives used email to find employees across town or across the country. So interesting to see but there's so much to go into and lots of interesting retrospectives across all the different media organizations. I don't know that I have a particular anything to dive into there but it's interesting for you to go and dig into. Anyway moving on let me tell you about ramp.com. Time is money. Save both. These are used corporate cards, bill pay and accounting and a whole lot more all in one place. So we have a lot of different articles. Anyway what are the AI doomers actually proposing? That's the question I was trying to answer this morning.

2:02For a while. A year sentences. That's one. So yeah there will be this weird translation layer between the thought leaders and the people that are writing policy papers effectively and then what actually gets implemented. What gets you know votes basically can be wildly different because to get the populist actually support something you need to wrap it in a different structure potentially. AI 2027 predicted that this month you know late in 2026 Congress would wake up and that is in the journal. Congress is suddenly waking up to the AI doomsday threat and so this is happening all over the place. Was it Matt Damon who was called on TMZ being invested interrogated about his thoughts on AI risk. There's now protests. I believe AI 2027 predicts a 10,000 person anti-AI protest by the end of the year. I was trying to figure out how big this protest in Chapel Hill North Carolina earlier this

3:04month was. I think it came in sub 10k but certainly tracking to it. It was about 150 people at this protest in Chapel Hill but just two ooms away from the prediction from AI 2027 and AI 2027 in the sequel AI 2040 frustratingly vague about impacts outside of the AI industry. So there's a lot of really amazing predictions about agentic capabilities and the amount of compute that will be marshaled and even lab revenue. But there's not as much predictive stats and calls around what will it do to GDP, what will it do to employment, how often will people actually be using this, what will it actually be good at. The diffusion question is still sort of left unanswered but they're clearly taking it very seriously. There's a huge press cycle around this and the journal says that Congress is suddenly

4:09waking up. So I wanted to dig into what the actual proposal is because the joke for a while has been just like everyone when they're pressed on this they just say we got to talk about it. We got to talk about this. AI 2040, Daniel. One thing that stands out, it's interesting to me that there's been so much more seemingly grassroots mobilization around the anti-floc movement, deflock when you compare that and you don't see videos of people with 100,000 likes saying like here's how to cut power to your local data center. Not for ex-risk reasons but you will see a post that's just like I don't like image generation because I'm an artist and that will get a lot of ideas. But what I'm saying is that the anti-floc sentiment converted into actual physical actions by a bunch of just otherwise normal people.

5:11I'm saying we haven't seen that yet with data centers maybe we don't but it's notable. Much harder data centers are in remote locations, highly fortified, there's fences. Totally. Floc cameras are on your street maybe. Exactly. Yeah, so there's degrees there. But what's weird is that you're calling out grassroots taking down the data centers. The AI 2040 proposal is effectively opposite. It's like hardening the data centers even more. The actual proposal is super concrete in AI 2040 and it's very interesting just to hear about how they want to slow things down. So the thing that I think a lot of people online who are like yay, an anti-AI sentiment that's going viral are going to be depressed about is that like this is not stop AI at all. AI 2040 is like keep the inference flowing.

6:12The current models are great. Also let's keep doing capabilities research but we just want to reach super intelligence by 2040 instead of 2028 where we're not necessarily prepared. So they want it to be highly controlled by governments, nation states, highly secured and there's a whole bunch of very, very tactical recommendations that they make around that. So the first mechanism is an AI pause. They want to pause training. They don't want to do any more new frontier training runs or R&D experiments. To enforce this, they're calling for to apply inference only verification to essentially all major AI data centers. So anyone who has more than $10,000 H100 equivalent roughly $100 million of equipment and that is like pretty easy to figure out. You're just like big building over there. Let's send the inspector inside. Oh, says Nvidia and all these chips. Count them up.

7:13There's over 10,000 of them. You got to apply for this permit. You got to tell us what you're doing, right? Very easy to enforce at least in the United States and with an international body, you can kind of do the same thing internationally. So the whole goal, you can only inference the current models and you got to verify your workloads with an independent auditor, probably the government. Maybe there's some sort of non-governmental organization that's doing this. There's a whole bunch of different solutions that you can pull from across nuclear and non-proliferation work that's happened in the past. In your countries, they want them to declare AI compute inventories. Tell everyone, not just your local population, but also the international community, how many warheads you got, how many H100 equivalent do you have? Where are they? Everyone shares this. That's going to be a really tough sell because international agreements are really, really tough sales. It's much easier to have a ground swell of support for something that happens in America. We have a system that we don't really have the international rules to quickly implement

8:18that in a way that doesn't allow for a lot of defection. But they want to know who has compute. So major data center owners and semiconductor supply chain companies would be required to turn over sales records. Who do you sell those chips to? Where'd they go after that? Foreign inspectors would do routine chip counts, physically at site, on site at facilities. These transfers of chips would only be allowed to go to registered, audible, counter parties. There's some interesting networking specific components to this proposal too. They want to physically remove high bandwidth, east, west, networking inside of data centers, so you can't do large distributed training runs, but you can still do inference. So again, anyone, all the anti-AI people who are like, I don't want LLLabs around anymore. These are not your guys. They're not fighting for that. They are fighting for stopping the next training run, which is probably aligned. Those are overlapping circles, but it is not moving backwards in time.

9:21It is merely slowing down at this current moment. They also want to install passive optical network taps on anything leaving the data center to independently verify traffic for any new AI R&D data centers they want. They're entirely new facilities built from scratch with nation-state level physical security and verification. So they're saying, okay, the data centers that are built, they can inference the current models, your astros, your fables, your rocks, those can run because we can deal with those, we can harness those, we have control over them. We're going to continue to align them, and that's a solvable problem. But for the next run and the one after that and the one after that as it gets crazier, we want it in a new building built inside a fairer day cage. So you can't communicate it from the outside. We want a bunch of physical controls. It's like going to a nuclear facility, highly verified who gets in the building and when air gap communications.

10:22This is one interesting proposal that they have that really shows how deep they thought this through. They want the R&D data center to be connected externally if you want to communicate with it and you want to tell it what to do, okay, train the next running or do whatever, they will have a bandwidth-capped connection at one meg per second. So you can send little instructions, but if you say send me the weights because I'm taking them somewhere else, it would take you like five years to actually trade it. So interesting hardware solution to this, how do you actually go and implement that, there's going to be a whole bunch of other things, but interesting that they're thinking about the width of the pipe. So it would be very obvious if you're stealing the model weights because it's like, wait, this one meg pipe has been at Bolt tilt for months, what's going on here, someone's taking the stuff out of the data center. They want, when frontier model weights move from an R&D facility to an inference facility, they want it to be placed on physical storage devices encrypted independently by both the

11:26US and China, so both countries have to sign off and physically escorted by representatives of both countries to the destination. It's tall order, that one's tall order, for sure. And they actually want frontier models to be made deliberately larger than compute optimal. So they want the weights to be 100 terabytes instead of honing them down to something that's just one terabyte that could actually be moved around a little bit easier. There's a bunch of public disclosure proposals in there, restrictions on various trade-offs, so labs would have to share the model specification, the fraction of compute devoted to internal AI use, so you don't get a lab that's just internally using way better models than what's available externally. They want qualitative descriptions on how powerful models are being used internally, restrictions on how big the gap can be between the best internally deployed model and customer facing products. And a common discussion point with the rollout of mythos and phabial and astra and astra

12:26nex, and all these different models where people said, it's really unfair that this lab gets a better thing than I do, we should be on even footing if we're both going to be competing in web design, or we're both going to be competing in legal. Why can't I buy this product from you? And so there's some overlap there with the broader business community, which I thought was interesting. And first of all, a lot of this tracks with the regulation that we had pushed for beginning about two years ago, round podcasts, wanting podcast studios to be air-gap, wanting fair-day cages, round podcast studios. A locked briefcase with an SMB-7, SM7B in it, and in order to unlock a Patrick O'Shaughnessy and David Senra both need to give you codes to independently verify that this podcast is worthy of being recorded. Yeah, I like that one. Yeah. Yeah. It just makes sense. So high-level valve they see as being like the most effective in controlling the speed

13:28of capability improvements is compute caps. So there is a world and we're going to the Bernie Sanders thing because it's already getting sort of twisted, but the big hammer is just chip controls and data center build out, slow down. Yeah. That's the easiest thing and I think that's like the biggest valve that they're going to, that we're going to see twisted around to actually slow down capabilities. And so the goal is to allow models to get better mainly by adding hardware rather than inventing better algorithms, which can leak to secret projects. So the goal is like, okay, well, we know that this model is capable of this, so we want this much compute over here. Okay. So we're allocating more compute as opposed to this one weird trick that AI do, Mershate. Yeah. So the goal here is not to go back to time because when you look at, I mean, anytime you have,

14:29you know, really, really hardcore government regulation and international coordination around issues like this, you're going to have a bunch of unintended consequences. And one thing that feels obvious around this, if these policies were to be rolled out, is that you would effectively create an incentive for millions of individuals or groups globally to be in secret, like trying to find entirely new breakthroughs that are. Yeah. And again, this is, it's sent of already exists, but it kind of pushes a lot of the idea that humans are just going to be like, oh, I'm not, I'm no longer going to try to create the God model because, like, there's this, you know, big global organization that's sort of policing it. Yeah. I just, I mean, that's the same thing we see with nuclear non-proliferation. There's always a discussion about what countries are getting the bomb and how far along

15:30are they and borders break out over this. And, yeah, like the game's not over just because you create a framework, but there is at least a, I mean, we've avoided World War III. So you could say that a lot of, like, the vast majority of nuclear non-proliferation work has been successful. Even though there's been a ton of examples of people trying to divert around it. In fact, it's like been the backbone of geopolitics for like 60 years, has been like who gets the bomb and what chips are on the table. But, but ultimately, GPUs and computers are, much more wide, you know, infinitely more widespread than nuclear materials. Yeah, but you still got a Marshall and all together. Yes, there's some weird scenario where there's a Python script that's AGI that can run on your laptop. But I think most people are convinced, at least in this crowd, that scale is a prerequisite.

16:31And, I mean, we were joking about like, it would be so, like, we SSI, Ilya Setskivir's new NeoLab is recently got a big cluster from Nvidia. And we were like, the most bullish thing you could do if you're this secretive NeoLab would be like, we're actually selling our compute because we've discovered a more compute optimal way to reach AGI. And we don't need a lot of compute. But of course, even Ilya is like, it's time to scale up. I need more compute because it seems like even if he's taking a completely orthogonal approach to, you know, innovation and research, he still needs a lot of compute. And so it does feel like everyone is sort of with the consensus that it's going to be a big building with a lot of energy, big heat signature, definitely visible from space and pretty simple to track, at least in the short term, until people start building crazy underground facilities. And then you're back to, you know, nuclear non-proliferation. But their goal is at least to like, you know, try. Yeah, and then the other side of this is.

17:33Not a penny. It does AI development actually become something closer to the Manhattan project where, you know, a lot of people, 100 researchers are working with the government in secret because you can't just assume that other countries are going to slow down or do anything. Yeah. And but in general, I think the proposal is, don't go back in time. It's definitely not stop everything in its tracks. It's a slow down with the goal of scaling gradually. They do actually want to reach super intelligence. They just want to do it by 2040, hence the name of the project. So the goal is, gradually scale into top human expert capability around 2035. Now a lot of people are saying, oh, we might get this by 2029, 2028, 2027. And they see that as too fast. So they want to push that out to 2035. Then wait five years with AGI and then unlock super intelligence in 2040.

18:35This is their initial proposal. Of course, there's a lot that could change over the next decade. And I think, I think like to zoom out overall, if you're worried about X-Risk, the AI 2040 plan does feel like a concrete path towards slowing down. The conversation definitely gets dragged down into P Doom estimates and trying to narrow down exactly how a human extinction scenario plays out. And that can be, I feel like that's almost a side show because in a democratic society amongst humanity, it doesn't really matter the mechanics of getting to 10% P Doom or any of those. It's just like, if everyone feels that way, something will happen. This is a concrete plan of what that might look like. And that's valuable to understand in this case. So for the safety skeptics, it's easy to see how this level of control over what you can do with computers is authoritarian or anti-libertarian. Even if we're talking about $100 million computers, there's a lot of people that say like,

19:37I should be able to do math on my computer. I can do whatever I want. Let me do cool things. I'm excited about this. That limits your freedom. In my create regulatory capture for a few major players. It might crash the stock market or delay economic gains that come in the good ending where alignment is solved and X-risk plummets. You can imagine a situation where in a few years, if X-risk fades into the background, you're like, yes, there's still a risk, but it's the same risk that we face every day with an asteroid hitting our earth. It doesn't really change anyone's behavior. That would be sort of the good ending in my opinion. So it's a balancing act. And for most of these slow down proposals, I personally have a hard time blackpelling about them in the sense of like, if all of this gets implemented, how frustrated will I be? Like the models are good. I would like better models. I want safe models. But at the same time, there is this massive capability overhang. The current models can do a lot of interesting work. We're finding new uses, even for non-leading-edge models.

20:39There's a lot that can be done. So I don't believe the doom-dumers who are doom-ing about what the doomers are planning. I find that unconvincing right now. But people are starting to lay it out more, Brad Gerson or Jensen Wong, David Sachs, are talking about the other side of this equation. But I haven't just like it's hard for some people to concretize the Terminator scenario. I also have a hard time concretizing. We didn't race and we're unhappy about that. I guess you could say the housing scenario. There's been other times when we brought in too much regulation, slowed things down too much and been like, this was really not the right move. But at the same time, I think we have a lot that we can do with the current technology that there's still cause for optimism. Even if something like this gets universally voted on, I don't think it would be the worst thing for companies and consumers and businesses and all sorts of different folks.

21:43There's also a big question around what. Does the 2040 people have a point of view on robotics and physical AGI? Because it seems like even if you pause efforts towards RSI, well, if we add, billions of robots into the world that are just running on today's model, that also presents today's like, you know. I don't think they're worried about that. Yeah, but to me, but to me that. Billion robots with GPT-6 level intelligence and years of alignment work that is currently happening, that's fine. It's the next next next thing, the super intelligence, the thing that might have its own goals. I think, I mean, we're talking to someone from OpenAI's robotics team, hooking up Astro to a robot, a paintbrush, and a camera we talked about earlier painting. I don't think we're at a point where that poses a risk.

22:49It's the next model. It's the model with its own volition, basically. Which a lot of people still aren't seeing. They're just like, yeah, like the models keep getting better, but they seem to follow your instructions sometimes too much, and then you need to worry about the paper clips in our area, but it's not that they want to do their own thing necessarily. I don't know. But people are going back and forth on this. Clem over at Hugging Faces, sorry, but asking Jacob about AI extinction risk is like asking your AC guy about climate change, not saying it's necessarily uninteresting or wrong per se, but let's keep things in perspective and hear from the full range of expertise across the ecosystem. And Nathan Lambert says, banger. What was our take? Well, AC guy might be right about climate change. Well, my AC guy would be like, I don't really know about that, but I just want to make sure when you're hot that we can run this AC cool. I guess it's yeah, the AC I see. I don't know about all that.

23:49I don't know about all that mumbo jumbo, but you know, when it's a hot summer day, I don't want you to be worried about the heat brother. I like that. Yeah, this is kind of an unnecessary shot at AC guys. Yeah, AC guys are important. I don't know. It's funny. Anyway, let me tell you about Figma. Agents meet the canvas. Your air agents can out create modified photo files with designed system plan tasks. What did Bernie Sanders have to say is this is this real entities will sell sell be subject to the corporate death penalty and persons shall be shall be subject to more than 20 year, not more than 20 years in prison. If they don't pause AI development. That seems pretty easy to comply with. I don't know. I guess how do you define AI development is prompt engineering AI development. Then you get caught because your model sort of did a little prompt engineering in the final stage and then your guilty of this like that.

24:52Yeah, that could be a negative knock on effect. I guess it does seem aggressive. But his overall proposal is banning artificial super intelligence so no person or entity may develop or deploy super intelligent AI systems. He defines artificial super intelligence as an artificial intelligence system that exhibits or can easily be modified to exhibit capabilities that match or exceed human cognitive performance and capabilities across a broad range of domains or tasks. It sounds like the mission statement. It sounds like the explicit goal of like 17 different companies right now. AI system or AI systems that have sufficient capabilities to plan and execute the disempowerment of humanity. That's a good one. I like that. I don't like overthrowing or undermining the US government. So strongly in favor of banning that. Posing advanced AI development until a new federal AI regulatory body is up and running and then the new cabinet level federal agency will monitor frontier AI systems at all stages of the life cycle.

25:53Supervised the removal of dangerous capabilities and supervise the destruction of artificial super intelligence were coming for it, which is similar to the corporate death penalty. It's a line that you don't hear a lot right usually these companies just go bankrupt and wind down but corporate death. It goes pretty hard. It's kind of it's kind of metal. Yeah, you kind of got me with that one. Yeah, rough rough rough situation. We'll see where it goes. Jamie Cox over at over at fluid stack the co founder fluid stack a computer provider shared his convictions sort of pushing back on a lot of this saying that he thinks America should build more their pro freedom pro democracy. They believe AI will bolster human flourishing we support simple clear enforceable regulation frameworks that set simple requirements proportion to keep abilities and risk with clear responsibilities and no unnecessary barriers to competition.

27:04Yeah, the real you're going to see a lot of pushback from people who are like the like the regulatory stuff is going to be like these 10 companies and I'm going to be number 11 and I'm basically getting the corporate death penalty then because I didn't make the cut to be one of the regulated one of the approved companies. I'm still early in my stage so there's a lot of nervousness I'm sure but well, the night is said we believe AI will make everyone rich healthy and free is novel and interesting comms from the frontier he's he's endorsing this and I agree I like I like this I like these convictions I think it's generally like a positive direction to move in not a direct response to the proposals that are going out but we're going to get a whole lot more of them. Where do you want to go to next over on tiktok they're sharing photo of the whistleblower and saying in every worldwide disaster movie there's a dude that looks just like this that nobody listen to he really does look like he does look like an actor here.

28:11Yeah, he looks good. But people are people are all and please stop calling him scary potter I've been seeing people have been seeing people over on X calling him scary potter. That's the goal. The goal is to wake up China wake up Congress wake up everyone. Door dash has entered the conversation. They said two years at door dash I do not say this lightly. We are extremely close to the breeder arriving before you decide you want it we are not we are not asking for a ban we're asking for a pause. I don't know why they would ask for a pause. Yeah, that seems like a very very aligned to humanity. Yeah, and to their business. Yeah, which I think is fantastic. The doom is very much contained to the frontier lab work everyone in the application layer who's applying the models diffusing them they're like I just I can't get this thing to work right I got to get I got to get forward deployed engineers to teach people how to use this thing everyone deeper.

29:11Jim Jim rainbow over Jim or Riley or Jim Riley. Yeah, Jim. Oh, Jim Riley over Charles today. I says it's a whole lot of mumbo jumbo. That was your words. He just he's just happy to get you know eight hours back. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then yeah, everyone deeper in the supply chain like Jensen and all the different semiconductor manufacturers are are not particularly on this side. And then you also have Wall Street who's just like what's the enterprise acceleration. So lots of different groups around the table that need to be brought on board to this movement. The discourse truly is fascinating. Let me tell you about console console built AI agents that automate 70% of ITHR finance. It's a place in the resolution for access requests and passes. That's a new too much time. New new approach. New. Okay, so what is Tyler Cowan calling for?

30:13He's banging the table saying bet on this. Tyler cause this. Are you named after Tyler Cowan? Is that your name sake? Tyler Cowan says if you have very pessimistic fears or predictions about AI name the market prices that will support or confirm them. This is what taking this seriously means. And I love Tyler Cowan. I'm not sure this matters because if you if you you're not going to be around to collect it. Yeah, this is what deep deep dish in the air says Tyler why would short term. Accessential risk effect market prices in any meaningful way. Spell out the exact mechanism contracts that pay out if everyone dies aren't worth anything to me. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, I think he's just he's calling for like you know you want to like make a falsifiable claim like is this. Am I able to tell if your claim is like true or false and so it's like very hard with these scenarios where like. Is it unfalcifiable claim though just by definition and like you just have to like accept that move on.

31:15Yeah, but then it's like so hard to have any like real discussion. Was what was nuclear any any different? Like the threat of nuclear apocalypse the threat of World War three. This was a very motivating factor for decades. Most of the 20th century people made real decisions based on it based on where to do business and where where where the where the conflicts were going to be in the motivation for nuclear treaties and non proliferation and how we do. You can make financial decisions like think about nuclear war right you have a you have a bunker that's like that is such you make funky or is anyone making like AI bunkers know because they think it's going to be so totalizing that the bunker actually doesn't do anything. Exactly. Yeah, so if you think it's so totalizing then you don't make the bunker and so saying hey you don't have a bunker is not is not proof that the person doesn't believe what they're saying. I don't know the answer to this question either but it seems like I don't know maybe there's some question you can ask that is both viable.

32:17I don't know I think you just got to you just got to believe these like this crew that like that's what they believe in. You know like they they believe it there is the other side of this which is Paul Christiano who is has been worried about risk he recently just joined the board of open AI. And Tyler Callan you know has this quote if you're a doomer why aren't you short the market and Paul Christiano is 2x levered long and he short the isn't he short the the bond market or US right so he is 5% of his net worth in Tesla 90% of his net worth in AI bets and 100% of his net worth in normal investments no Tesla options that sounds like a scary place with lottery ticket biases and the crazy Tesla investors and then you L.A. is your you to caskies is am I correctly understanding you're 2x levered and Paul Christiano says yeah and so he says he's personally short the US the US 30 year debt I think that just means you have a mortgage.

33:23I'm pretty sure that's like if you have a mortgage you are effectively short the US 30 year because you have you have sold that debt and you got the cash effectively that's how that works but still it makes sense because you if you have enough money you could pay off your mortgage go long that debt and short the market around a relative basis so. But but again that's not this doesn't seem like a doom based bet this seems like this bet also pays out in just like the good ending and like AI is real and delivers value so your AI bets perform well the market performs well and money slides from US debt to data centers and AI build out that or something like that so. He is putting money where's mouth is but it doesn't feel like a representation of like doom by any means anyway let me tell you about shop five shop five is the commerce platform the grocery business let's you sell and seconds online in store on mobile social on marketplaces and now with agents speaking of the agents.

34:27People have been creating agents of fruit flies have you seen this yes okay so where should we start because I want to set the table on what what is actually going on yeah Tyler do you understand this break down breakdown what people are cooking we've seen this before we talked about the something before but what's actually going on with the with the fruit fly because now people are taking the fruit fly all over the place. Yes I'm understanding is is Google basically mapped out all of like the neurons in a fruit for fruit for so they probably took a took a deceased fruit fly and put it in like a mass spectrometer or something that can can investigate the brain at a very very high high powered microscope effectively yeah like the entire 3d they got the entire structure and now people have been able to recreate that in software in a simulation. Yes I think in theory you can like replicate all of the flies like decisions or whatever it's like movements yes and this is notable because many people have said I have the mind of a fruit fly.

35:34This is the end they've been they've said I have the intellect of a yeah so now they're going to put it to the test to see which performs better the simulated fruit fly or just Jordi Hayes we got it. So now that this is out in the code is out and you can run this fruit fly in simulation however you want people are having they're doing all sorts of experimentation so Kevin said he trapped the fruit fly in his rabbit R1 when he shakes it he can see its brain brains escape circuit light up by the way our consciousness is physically defined which is why our physical things like drugs neurotransmitters or other things like that. So these are the things like these neurotransmitters or events alter or initiate or end or consciousness and things like sleep hallucination waking or death computer simulations are also basically defined representations. Yeah I think what ends up being unsettling and weird about this is if it just just purely you being human and doing this is probably not good for your own soul.

36:44Imagine imagine you have a fruit fly in a box shaking it and you're like look it wants to escape totally I'm not a huge fan of small insects I don't really want them around that much but when they're in my house I tried to you know if a spiders in my house even if I know it might want to take a nice bite of me I'm still going to you know try to transport it out of my house and put it back into the world I think it's I think it's not good for me. It's not good for your for your soul to be you know a merchant of death sure and yet and yet if you're playing a real-time strategy game and you highlight a bunch of soldiers in this simulation and you send them on a charge that will result in their virtual death you might not feel those soldiers opted into writing. Okay okay okay what about it's just sitting there John so they made the fruit fly play doom what about if you play doom you are killing a demon do simulated is that immoral like well that's the will is that demon trying to kill you a lot of it comes down to like the fact that it's simulating a the actual representation of the fly makes it a lot more concrete than just oh yeah it's a 3d model in a python.

38:08It just says if you see a if you see a character shoot at them in the simulation but we're we're clearly starting to grapple with like these odd moral questions of if you're simulating something then the next step it's a couple of order magnitude but you get there and you can simulate a human and you could talk to that human and it would do everything the human does does that human have rights and agency is an ethical moral agent or is it merely just a simulated just a really good computer simulator. It's just existing on transistors so you don't need to feel any moral weight about anything that you do to it I agree with the just the bibles based analysis that like torturing a real fly torturing a virtual fly probably just don't be in the business torture and anything you don't need to overthink it but people are the real debate here is like the question of you know our LLM sentient are they moral do that is there a moral weight to the the to to to synthetic intelligence to artificial intelligence that's what people are debating here and I'm sure the debate will continue who knows if it will ever be ended but they did teach it how to parallel park which I think is cool interestingly last night I had a straw use computer used to play a video game that I very much enjoy playing called the lotro it's sort of like a modified poker game and I don't feel like I was torturing the all I'm by that I feel like I was giving a treat I was like hey instead of

39:37doing my taxes you get to just chill and play a video game it did very well it won soul was not able to win and it was really fun because I would like pop in while it was using the computer and it's kind of armchair quarterback and be like is it making the right decision right now like a felt like a coach coaching like a kid on the surface I'd have fun I had a funny moment last night I was on my racing simulator comparing asking that to be T for for to compare my times like goona yeah to to just other other you know what what would best in class be like what's beginner like et cetera and it said if you want I can help you you know cut cut some seconds off of this time yeah and it was like why don't why don't you take a video of a full lap yeah so that and I'll analyze before you and I was like yeah I yeah dude I bet I bet you like just just watch you know watch track and watch track footage pretty soon

40:41it's gonna be like you want me just get in the seat yeah yeah yeah no computer use in I racing is something I'm gonna experiment with this I'm down I'm down take take half my quota my monthly quota just play games chill through whatever it's nice treat I've got some bank resets yeah it'll put to work yeah anyway we have our first guest I don't want to miss pronounce Tyler how do we pronounce his name geese geese let's bring him in how do you pronounce your first name it's tight tight like nice that's right like nice but welcome to the show thank you so much for taking the time great to have you tell us about your your role in robotics and also some of your recent work uh hooking these models up to robotic tools and and infrastructure uh it feels like we're going to be entering a boom of like people they ordered the Mac mini recently people are going to be ordering 3d printers and robotic arms and doing hack projects super excited for like the DIY world

41:44to explode over the next couple months but uh let's start with just like your most interesting projects recently yeah I'm incredibly excited uh for that and and that was definitely like just around the corner so I'm super excited about that um yeah I work here on the robotics team open I'm an intern and have been doing lots of exploratory projects and this is just one of the projects I I basically notice that our models were really good at painting and doing various like computer use tasks in software like you're just talking about and learned a lot uh that you could actually basically connect these into physical robots in the real world and uh wanted to see how they would do that sort of drawing and tasks like that as well uh yeah if you can if you can paint and Google calendar with calendar invites you probably translate that uh to to the real world yeah it's really like everyone is doing everything like I've seen people paint the Mona Lisa and Microsoft Excel or Google Sheets and then you take it back and you can do Excel and MS paint now if you want with the

42:46like everything becomes everything um what what what what is actually the the important like precursors to a good experience we were talking to a YC founder who built a humanoid robot with some basic clause for like under 2 grand and it feels like there's there's an importance of some on device you know API or some on device models in some case doing some slam on device uh but then there's also just uh tools that give you a very primitive interface that might be kind of clunky but it doesn't really matter because you can just vibe code your correct interface but what what what have you liked what are you excited to to put in the repertoire of tools like within robotics yeah within robotics yeah um I think that of course like a lot of these demos and stuff is very early I think like the whole space and exact modeling and methods are still definitely being figured out but I did really like the fact that you're sort of able to hook in the intelligence of like what the models are able to do as you can see with all that painting stuff and plug it into something physical in the real world and get it to do things.

43:54um there's probably going to need to be like some combo right now like uh running basically my experiment here is plugged right into code X uh and that's of course probably quite expensive yeah definitely pretty slow I think these paintings took between one hour and like two hours depending on uh the methods exactly that the model like to use here um but yeah there's definitely a lot of improvements to make but it's quite cool to see what you're able to do already. Yeah how are you balancing trade-offs between speed and reasoning effort I was I was I've been testing computer use on a bunch of video games that I just mentioned and uh there's like the you know like part of what the field the AGI moment is is when the cursor is moving at like at least near human speed uh and but then also you don't want to be making a bunch of music. So that's just a lot of different mistakes and just uh so that's this like balancing act is really key. Did you try multiple reasoning effort levels across different paintings and see like noticeable results can you see qualitative differences in speed and quality based on models that you pick?

45:03Yeah there's like a lot of different ways to sort of go about doing this. And I initially start out these experiments by just telling the model like here I as you can see actually the bot behind me. Okay. Um over here it's currently painting a TVP and logo. Oh good. I love it. But it has it's doing its best. There you go. Good start. We got basically this camera up here that the model uh which is connected right into codex over here is connected to. Yeah. And the biggest challenge is that images are like quite large. Yeah. Uh to process especially like for the model there are a lot of tokens. Yeah. Um and the loop of like taking an image, taking an action, taking other image, taking an action. That's the thing that has taken a lot of time. So what I ended up doing like it's not directly doing like image like once moment image once moment movement. And I think like that would probably result in the best performance for like general robotic tasks and stuff. But like at the moment it's basically taking an image, uh writing a plan and code of where like what it should do and where it should go next after it has done like a lot of the calculations maybe a slower sort of methods at first.

46:10Sure. And then after it has that plan it executes it and then monitors it in the background like taking images every second or few seconds and watching like to make sure things are going well and like making it small adjustments to the plan throughout. And I found that has been like a good balance of speed here. Have you been thinking about like compression on the input you mentioned that the images are lots of tokens. I have this monitor that renders at like 5k resolution and I was like this is probably going to be really slow for computer use. I should like run this game in a window and give it like a 720p input because that's probably enough information. But I'm wondering like how important the the resolution to speed and quality is that you've seen. Yeah, I think it's very important in this case for like a lot of the early demos I was using like 512p just compressing just to make yeah make sure because I think the model is just pretty much it's pretty much solved like a lot of the perception challenges here. So it's like really good at understanding what's going on even with like a lower quality photo here.

47:13But in this case like with the longer planning and sort of like plan sort of a minute of action out it's less important. The like specific resolution probably but yeah as we go to more like faster much more smaller loops of like control is definitely going to be important. I'm super excited about about this project mainly because it feels like we're right on the precipice of sort of like what I what I think is going to be a big breakthroughs. Sort of a deep research moment for robotics like simple robotics use cases where deep research for so many people was their first time using agents and the idea that you could type out of prompt and then get back what would have been maybe. You know at least hours of human work right somebody reading all these different sources and combining that information into a document that's. That has a consistent narrative and understands the right information that was just such a big moment because a lot of people were saying wow I can't believe that.

48:14That the AI was able to do something that would have otherwise I would have hired had to hire somebody to do or just take a bunch of time. But there's like very simple tasks that I feel like you can probably start working on sooner than later which is like an example at least for me would be like if I could just take all the mail I get and dump it in front of a robot like that and have the robot sort it. So just take all the you know 50% of everything I get is probably some sort of advertisement so like figure out what's an ad and shred that and then actually you know basically like photograph and respond to if I have like a utility bill or or any any number of things that I actually need to respond to theoretically you could close that sort of like I or all to digital loop where the agent would like actually get a task from the real world and then close that loop online. With with just normal computer use and like that's the kind of thing that you don't need the you don't need like a $50,000 humanoid robot you theoretically could have a actual desktop robot that was able to do this thing that otherwise takes me I dread going and like okay I have to like sort through all this mail and figure out what's important make sure I don't miss things.

49:24But I feel like there's a bunch of other use cases like that where people are like okay I didn't just generate a pretty picture or or answer some question that I had. I like actually say myself. Yeah and I were all spam filter spam spam filter robot. Yeah I think there's like two really really cool things about this project which sort of shows that direction that things are going one is that this arm I don't know if you know about like too much about the prices of like classic robotics equipment it's like thousands and thousands of dollars at the moment and like this arm that I'm using here like right behind me this is a hugging face S.O. 100 robot which is like open source. Really 3D printable you just need to get the actuators which are like much cheaper I think at the moment which is I think more expensive just because of supply chain issues it's like around $200 or so but like that's like incredibly cheap for robotic equipment and what you're able to do with it so like I can see a world like quite soon where similar to and some of this really well in Twitter similar to how there is this whole 3D printing craze or everyone went and bought 3D printers and ran software like everyone's going to buy these sort of cheap before we get like really industrial equipment for like perfect.

50:32So you can just do industrial equipment for like personal use and personal product like by these plastic cheaper robot arms that you can just like sort of clip onto a table and just put stuff in front of and plug them into like agents that are already you can already do things with that are like already out there like Astra something that people can just pull up codecs and start controlling robots with right now which is super sick. And we've also been seeing like at least on Twitter I've noticed a lot of like sort of academic researchers at different institutions start to like realize the that you can do this with these models and start doing like initial explorations and things with it which is super sick to see and there's so much more space. There was a YC company on the show yesterday that is managed to build a humanoid robot for under 2000 dollars and that feels like a price point that people would experiment with so I if I if I know I can get a robot for like 2 grand and connected to codecs and then tell it like it basically lowers the stakes a lot where I can be like hey go every weed like this that you can find in my yard go like pluck it out and try to put it in a bag or whatever.

51:39And like that that's basically like the gardening robot and it could like flounder and fail but I have like pretty high confidence that even right now. Asher would be able to identify like hundreds of like a specific type of of weed and probably and there's of course like safety safety concerns with that. But yeah, yeah, that's the that freedman like leaf robot like it feels like we're here the models can do it. It's not it's not cheap but what is what is the next medium that you want to explore are you going to get into whittling. So I have to see you whittle a bench is a benchmark whittle bench. That's really good. But whittling a spoon or something I don't know it just feels like 3D is the next thing you really want to give the robot. John wants to give the robot a knife. I don't think that's I don't think we just have to read the room John read the room. Maybe we'll stick to enter opening I intern gives robot a pocket. Well, we'll do some ceramics maybe get it on the pottery wheel make a nice vase something like that.

52:43But I mean, is there anything you're like, oh yeah, okay, this is where this goes next. I think I was having the exact same thought which is like giving a robot a knife is like probably a very bad idea. But I do want to like sort of see if it can help do like cooking tasks or do various tasks that are like things that you do in your life that would be really sick if you get a robot help you out here in there. Yeah, yeah, that's interesting. Yeah, I am so I'm so interested to see the because there's a whole class of tasks where you can't wait a full minute. I was testing on like a real time strategy game and you can pause the game. But if you're not moving at a certain APM even on easy mode like you will just get smoked. And so but but it feels like with new chips and cerebris and spark models and stuff like the speed up is going to come. But it's just and that's going to unlock a whole new no whole new host of capabilities. What what what advice do you have for for young people that want to get into DIY you know like this this type of work.

53:45I mean you mentioned that one hugging face device that you have behind you. Are there any other devices or tools tool kits that you recommend as places to get started? Yeah, I think that the hugging face robot is like an incredible tool. You can also 3d print like a completely new embodiments and stuff. There's lots of open source projects online where people are like changing around to get better grippers and things you can do at that. I just like also just don't give up after the first attempt like this was the very first painting that the row that's upside down even that couldn't even stop. You can see the golden gate bridge here. You can kind of see the ground is trying to do. And just like if you keep going and you can you can sort of see the progression as it as it improves. Wow, that's amazing. Yeah, you need to frame those next to each other. That's that that's incredible. Yeah, I'm putting them all all five of the progression in like a frame and calling itself improvement because yeah the model of this was this was a thread. The model just was able to figure things out with a few pointers here and there. How to make get better and better at painting.

54:47Who's who's going to sign it? Is it you? Do you have codex sign it? Astra sign it? Well, who what's the also given the robot? I've given the robot a pen and it's going to try. I know how well it's going to do, but we'll see. It's an ask for something. Well, thank you so much for coming on the show. So cool. Very cool. Come back on soon. Yeah, yeah, I'm feeling I'm feeling the physical a GI for sure for sure. Very cool. Have a great rest of your day. Goodbye. Cheers. Let me tell you about public dot com investing for those who take it seriously. They got stocks options, bonds, crypto treasuries and more with great customer service. And let me also tell you about Cisco critical infrastructure for the AI era. Unlock seamless real time experiences a new value with Cisco. We have two guests with us in the TVP and ultra done. How are you guys doing? We're good. Welcome to the show partners. Yes, partners. Thanks for having us. Yeah, welcome. Introduce yourselves. Introduce my name is Gaios here. Yeah. From Maverick and also sound ventures. Yeah, welcome. I'm Alex. Yeah. Now with sounds. Yeah.

55:51Also running sources still. Okay. Very excited. Yeah, it's been a big week. No, no, no, how big it. No hat on your head. No hat at all. No hat right now. We were debating. Yeah, every time I have for the last year, every time I've seen you have the capital. Capital J journalism had on it's off. But it's off now. It's off. Okay. Yeah. But getting him here. This is a journalist. 10 years, 10 years, 15. Yeah, started around his high school. Yeah. Yeah. And then now capital V venture capital V. Yeah, capital I investor. Yeah. It feels we're aligned on the vision. Yeah. Yeah. Really excited to get started. He's this guy's a force. But also a talent. Yeah. You know, like you guys, I mean, there's you guys, you guys understand how to work with people and talk to people and help them tell their story. And I think it's so aligned with what I've been doing my whole life as well, which is helping people tell their story. Yeah. And so when we got together, it was, it was just magical. Yeah. Yeah. It's awesome. What are you interested in investing in?

56:56We're spending a lot of time on on different things. Personal agent space. Okay. Very interested in. Yeah. It's very hot. Obviously. Are you a daily driver of anything yet? I'm using everything. Everything. Yeah. With the last. Agentic thing you did. Do you book a flight? Did you email the CEO of Walmart for a refund on five dollars at raspberries? Do you hear about this? No. Oh, yeah. Some of these agents are very persistent. There's very persistent personal agents where, you know, a lot of like one of the seemingly now very obvious use cases of agents is just like, hey, like do a bunch of things that would take me a lot of time that could maybe save me some money. Yeah. When you're using a free agent, you don't care if it's spending its wheels for 24 hours to get you a $10.00. It's not worth a lot of refund if the refund if it's not costing you anything. So apparently somebody was trying to get a refund on a $5 pack of blueberries. They got a Walmart at raspberries. And the agent actually reached out to the EA of the CEO Walmart. So that was the last with place to escalate is like, I got to take this right to the top.

58:03These agents are getting crazy. They're getting crazy. But I guess like re rewinding a little bit guy you invested in opening eye and in the topic like years ago and. And how can you face and how can you face that into that nice. And so I in some ways like you probably the last few years have been sitting back and off just basically just getting to like getting to experience your own conviction and watching the space evolve. But I think like everyone has got to the point in the last or at least has consistently been feeling like nothing is like settled yet. We have these new kinds of businesses labs, some of the labs, you know, are making products. But there's still tons of room for other players to come in and make things. So are you feeling like renewed excitement around early stage when we didn't throw up it can open the eye. I think we were the only fun that that went in so deep back then. And it was confusing to some people but to us it felt like this was it. This was the time these were the companies. These were going to be long standing foundational platforms.

59:20And today it's a lot more confusing. I you know it's so much going on and every single week every single day you guys are announcing people's raises are raising now they're raising now they're raising now and it's hard to tell you know it's not as easy as it was for us to really decipher these are going to be the things people use in 10 years. And now it feels like there's so much going on but I'm also as excited and also as inspired I don't I want to be part of these exciting companies we just have to pick right. I'm meeting with some really incredible founders and visionaries feels really exciting. So it's like when I starting in the music business. It's like the early days where I got going and you're just getting demos everywhere you know you're walking out of a club you're like hey you're the guy at the here's a demo here's my demo my demo is my demo you like how can I tell which one of these artists but if you just if you put enough work in and of time in and you're diligent they start still like they start to become a little more obvious.

1:00:24And there was initially I had a hundred demos I literally was like 17 years old with a hundred demos but as you listen to a hundred my first three demos at 17. They were you these were under people that I would give and you know people that I would go out and go several let me hear you music music and you know the first three demos I had I had my favorite one my favorite two in favor like in order but a hundred in those three are not even in the top 20 right. So you have to just you have to you know pattern recognition you have to do a lot of work you have to listen you have to meet a lot of people and then through this crazy time there's it's it's pretty freaking crazy. I think the right things appear and then and then you just have to be there to be part of that and so it's still as excited yeah I have we have been able to sit back a little bit and watch our are you know we've also not we didn't just invest in companies we also invested on the way up. So that also keeps you busy we put a lot of money into a topic on the way up we put a lot of money into opening up in the way up and I think we have close to a billion dollars worth of of money invested into those two companies.

1:01:31And so so we're not just like laying back you know but but it is a lot harder today to decipher between what is it always not make when you make you know you when you have like to effectively recent investments that are now to the world. I do feel like the bar goes up on other on other investments because it's like it's suddenly is like is it is it has thrilling to invest in a company that that can only be a $10 billion company right when when and when a lot of these these were very excited to underwrite a company to 10 billion. You know six years ago even even during the period that that you were making those two investments. Yeah I think about it differently I have heard some people say zero to 100 that's like it's not a big deal anymore you know. I just like I've always been attracted to talent and and visionaries so I don't start with okay this you know we're fortunate to be in these two incredible.

1:02:36Companies but there's a lot in between and there's a lot to come and I just love sitting with a founder and. Problem solving and figuring out how we're going to get from a to B and sometimes it's sometimes it's where you get in I've just saw a lot of people you know. John from you know beta works really well on hugging face you know we came in we did well but he came in where you know it's seed so you did really well and. Sometimes it depends where you get in as well but for me what excites me is the same thing it's been constant my whole life which is surround yourself with really really incredible brilliant people who are trying to change the world. How does identifying creative or musical talent differ from start up entrepreneurial talent because I'm sure there's some some common threads but. Where is music you might back musician that's that that has like a maybe know they have a drug problem and and that's part of the music but in in startups you know it founder that's like has like some crazy crazy crazy stuff going on in their personal life maybe it's like how you should figure that out before you build a massive team and you're managing people like that.

1:03:53But there has to be like a bunch of common common ground between the two well I was able to transition seamlessly because of music my job was to identify artist before anyone had heard of them and to sign them very quickly and to then help them reach an audience so when I meet a founder I I actually feels the same I always say founders are the rock stars too. Because when they walk in and they also have their music they want to share with the world so I have to identify that founder same way I used to identify music artists yeah and then go this guy has or she or whoever have music that is so good or I love that course that's a great idea you mean a car shows up and it picks you up and it takes you or you mean or an apartment people can share and like oh wow that's a hit song yeah so I always listen to. Every pitch like it's like it's a song or an album or music artist and I just go that guy's got talent he's a rock star we just need to make sure the world knows it we need to make sure that people are aware of what he's building let's go get a base let's go let's go create find that audience first until this story and so for me it's I feel like I've been doing the same jobs since I was a teenager which is like you know identifying talent and helping them helping them reach an audience but me.

1:05:20Music is the constant I'm always listening for the course yeah you know if I don't hear the course like I'm not sure about the song this is you know or the performance of the song or I don't think we can I don't think this one you know so so it always comes from that the DNA is is is being around music arts is that in in tech world you see entrepreneurs that are truly vision areas and they're seeing opportunities before they are obviously pursuing those and they have an idea of the way that the world should be and they're trying to sort of mold the world into that state and then you have actually the majority of entrepreneurs which are just like they don't know something's an opportunity until they see someone else pursuing it right like that seems like a good idea I'm going to do that is same thing in music where you know you have somebody that has like truly a new sound and they have a life experience that they're trying to like they need they feel like they need to create

1:06:20the heart out of and then there's the the follow on of like I don't want to be a cover band entrepreneur cover band entrepreneurs that might be a good when we started the record label you had Jimmy Ivy here you when we started the record label is just four of us small companies Madonna's company so that's cool but was still there's just no one knew what to make of it and Jimmy was on fire inter-scope records was on fire and it I was kind of in the game. I was always thinking, if I don't act quickly, he's just gonna pay them more and get them. Yeah. And we were competing with big labels, Jimmy was the guy who I always looked at, like, he can just come in here and just wow them and get them. So not only do I have to hear your song and decide right then and there, I wanna do it. So I don't have any background. I don't have, oh, my biggest successes were always, the things no one else wanted.

1:07:21But, you know, Alanna Smorsett, I mean, she tells the story where every single label passed. I didn't have any of that history. She came in, she was in my office with her producer, Glenn Ballard. They played me one song, which is called Perfect, and within 30 seconds or 40 seconds, I think I was like, I'm in. And so that news, the band from England, they came to LA. I flew them in because I like their demo. They flew, they did one, after their performance, a few songs, after the first song I stopped them, I said, we're ready to go. And they're like, we flew all the way from London. Can we just play out the next few songs? I'm like, of course, but I just want you to know. So I developed that act quick intuition and it really just came from a hat to, or else someone else would just figure it out and overpay and then I couldn't do the deal. Well, so many of the market dynamics that you see in music, friend of mine, Zach Bia was telling me about like some of the process of signing the artist

1:08:23that he works with, where these artists are like, you know, the same thing that happens on, like with an intact, where like some ex account pops up and maybe there's like a team attached to it, there's no launch video yet, but you see a bunch of people following this person and then you hear that they're meeting with this firm and this firm and that firm and the whispers start going around. Same thing in music where like an artist might one day have no followers on Instagram, be totally, totally under the radar, living like in their parents basement, but they have some little bit of magic. And then soon enough, they're like, doing a road show basically with different labels and then you as a label need to be like, well, how much can we, how much can we invest in this person? How big do we want to bet? We need to get to them, we need to get to them first, but and then you're also sometimes competing on price, but other times you're just competing on like, well, how great a partner can I be to this artist? So like I can see how music translates just so well

1:09:27into venture because the exact same thing, venture is not a game. Once somebody's talented and they're known, it's like very obvious obviously you want to be. It's harder to get in then. And it's the same with, I have competed when things are big. I remember when Prodigy, everyone wanted them and I flew to London like in twice in four days to try to get that and I got it. And every VC wanted a story like that where they like, I had floated this back. So we have our place. We have those. We have all of those. But you know, you look at when we did Anthropic, when we did SPBs and Anthropic, we couldn't, a lot of people were not, hey, you guys were, yeah, tough to fill a few times, people didn't get it. Of course now, we're begging to get more of it. So again, I always go back to, don't listen anybody. You know, you talked about, I think the other day also, you talked about blinders. You just talked about blinders or something on the show? Yeah, Jimmy Iveen has that concept.

1:10:28Yeah, so that's, we're blinders. So our, we have a mutual friend and he's my mentor, his name's David Geffen. Yeah. And David said to me when I was like 21, he told me that story. I didn't know this, he said, you know guy, you need to be a race horse. And I was like, you know what race horses do? And I go, yeah, they race. I had no idea. And he goes, no, no, they were blinders. And so just race your own race. Because if you don't wear your blinders, if horses don't wear blinders, they could literally, they could kill, they could die. They could trip over there, they'd look over and they could trip over, they could break their legs. And so I really stuck with me that, you guys talked about it, that really, that concept stuck with me. And I really tried to just not pay attention, you know, when we did an anthropic and open AI, a lot of people doubted it. And we didn't have any doubt. We were determined to do it. And I want to stick with, we're really trying to continually connect to that

1:11:31approach of not listening to all the noise. Of course, data is important. We want to get more details and more information and restructured. But that got, that has gotten me here. I need to continually respect. Alex, on your side, you've spent, how is it 15 years? A decade? 15 years, ish. Did it take, did you feel like it took a few sort of cycles to hone your intuition around companies? Because in our first conversations, I was always impressed with your ability to just see directly through the marketing on so many different companies. Like, some people, like marketing just works on them. Marketing works on all of us, advertising just works period. But like marketing works, marketing and good comms work like too well on us at times. Before there's some people that are just like, it's just a good story. So I'm chasing it from the cap. But for you, you'd be like, you would, I would, we would be talking about something

1:12:31and you would be aware of like a dynamic around a company that no other journalists had talked about. And at times, like you would be like, yeah, the story's not for me. But you were like clued in on a story and you knew exactly what was going on with the company. And then, in the example I'm thinking of, I won't name the company only six months later, did it, has it even started percolating up that that dynamic is going on? And so I feel like for me, and at least personally, I had to see the cycle of like company, like starts, gets hot, attracts a bunch of capital. But sometimes you have this intuition around the company where like something doesn't really like feel right about this company, even though it has a lot of momentum. Yeah, that's it. Yeah, I don't know where that comes from, except that I've been fortunate to spend time with a lot of like the best founders in the world. I mean, I just thought it's not going to podcast a Samol and then before that, incredible lineup coming up. Yeah. And I've gotten to know these people over years and years and years.

1:13:31So when you see like the people at the apex who are crushing it and who are at high integrity are beasts at the game on the field, you can quickly see when someone is pretending. Yeah. And I just try to stay really close to like what's actually happening and ask around, do my diligence, leave no stone unturned. And that's got me well so far. But like the thing you said about like six months later, you saw I have that a lot where I'm like, oh, this seems really interesting. This seems like everyone's going to be talking about this and then it happens and it's happened enough and times to where I'm like, you got to figure out a way to make some money on it. Well, yeah, like what guy was saying about his gut and this is where I think we really hit it off is, yeah, you have to trust your gut. Like if you can get enough pattern matching recognition in, it's just instinctual. How do you think the podcast will evolve in this new role? It's going full tilt. I mean, first two episodes again,

1:14:32where Sam and Mark, I can't share the names, but it's going. It's just amazing. I just mean like there's interesting ways when you have position in a company, the critiques I was going to have, they're only having them in the show because they have a bag or whatever. But when I look at like what Door Cache has done with Maddox and Rainer, like explaining his expertise, it doesn't feel like a sales pitch for that company at all. It's actually just tapping the network at a deeper level. And at the same time, if I'm a founder and you're the place that I go to hear Mark Zuckerberg talk about his vision, that adds value in attracts, even if it's not a company that you're actively investing in because you're not doing publics. So I'm wondering if there will be more, like less like this person's in the funding track or more like 360 views. Do you want to come to Mountain and do all the Mag 7 CEOs? Is that the goal or is it more like go deeper

1:15:32with certain experts, build this community of people with particular philosophy? There's like a whole bunch of different ways I could see it evolving and I'm wondering if you have any particular direction. The Mag 7 I feel pretty good about. Yeah. You run that track for sure. Yeah, I feel great about it. I always love the like, I love putting the people at the top with the people who are up and comers for what I do. Yeah, yeah. So I've got two in from base 10 on next week. Amazing. Legend. Legend, incredible company. He's incredible. And he's obviously crushing. He's huge. But he's not. He's not. Yeah. So I want to bridge that world because this is all one world we're in. Everyone talks. The Zaks want to know what the two ends think. Vice versa. They want to learn from each other. So I like building that cinematic universe. Sure. And I think that's the case. It's like, I wanted to have that combo with tune, which is coming out next week because like, inference is just so important right now. And it's like everyone's trying to figure it out. And so you're also getting my POV of what I think is interesting with my guests and I'm

1:16:35booking everything myself. Sure. And I think that's only going to get better because again, like, sources is separate. I mean, obviously I'm with God and with sound. But, you know, we'll have, I'll have people on the pod that, you know, we're not investors in. I'll have other VCs on. It's about the ecosystem. Sure. And I think the brand is important. Like I want to invest in the brand. What's the future of the writing newsletter? I imagine that we're not going to be able to put the pen down for that. Well, yeah, it's interesting. I mean, there's going to be times when you just want to get something out. Yeah. I think, you know, I want to use the newsletter, which has just an incredible audience to share what I'm seeing. It's really like you're getting like a even deeper sense of what I'm seeing because now I'm like in the room in a way that I was kind of in, but I was always like, when you're a journalist and you're in the room, you like get brought into the room and then a squirted right back out. And now it's like, I get to hang out in the room. And so you're, I'm like, I'm sitting with it and I'm marinating on it.

1:17:35And so when I write like a piece like I'm thinking on something on personal agents actually right now, it's informed by a lot of conversations. I'm not going to share all those, right? Like, obviously, confidentiality is important. But I think it's going to make the perspectives I'm sharing a lot better. But look, I, you started this like hanging up the capital jade journalism hat, right? There is a sense of like journalism in the traditional sense of breaking school of the, and we were talking about this when I was on the show before, like the leaks and all the things that I've been doing for over the years, like obviously I'm not going to do that. But, but you know what? Like, I've done that. What about 10 years ago? Yeah, you have, like, I'm very excited to read this take on personal agents. Yeah. I've been thinking about the way this category evolves. Do you have any interest in turning that into a video essay direct to camera, talking to the camera, putting it on the same feeds like what DoorCash does when he hits an essay? He also has a video version. Yeah. Could just be a good product, but also maybe reach more people. People ask me to do that. Yeah. I have another job. I don't know if that makes sense for like, that's a lot of other reports where it's like,

1:18:37here's, here's some facts. Yeah. It's more of a quick hit. Yeah. And like a quarterly thesis from you, like maybe is too much of that. I would watch that. Okay. Well, and it just gives me more optionality till like I can browse it in the email. I can. So like with DoorCash, I get his emails. I also see them on YouTube and then I get it in the podcast feed and sometimes I'll be in the video mood sometimes. And I'm multi-platform with a lot of these creators. And so I need AI to help me with this guys. I'm going to be honest. Yeah. But you want the rawness of the person, which of course, but like, I think the pod is conversations for now. And maybe I branch it out. Maybe it's more things. I use a lot of the platforms are very receptive to multi-product feeds. Yeah. Like having multiple media products with in a feed. I thought a lot about this. I'd be surprised that we've been able to do it with a 20 minute version of the show and a three hour version of the show dropping in the same feed every single day. Yeah. And it hasn't been. People don't care. No. No. People just pick whatever they want. Yeah. And then if there's a hero interview, we get a big interview with someone that goes out as

1:19:38is another one. Yeah. And that's its own thing. I have eight incredible guests lined up. Yes. You want to really hit the next few weeks. Yeah. So it's like, I got to get those out. That's great. I'm an SF guy next week doing some. I'm doing four next week. Yeah. So I want to get all those out. And then yeah, maybe like the personal agency. Yeah. Maybe that's like a has the lens changed when if you think about a mag seven CEO, there's the getting the scoop in the interview, the capital J journalist interview in that conversation. And I think that you can, there's a bunch of different ways to do that. But then there's also the, you know, what is it? What will the next generation of great founders get out of this particular conversation with this mag seven CEO? Are you starting to put on that hat of like, I don't really think of it that way. I think about like, would I want to know? And yeah. And I really care about strategy. I really care about connecting the dots. Like I'm getting them to say something they've never said, which you saw with, you know,

1:20:39the last two pods. And that's still going to be the thing. And that's that is journalism. Yeah. I mean, you're getting interesting in fact. It's just good content. It's just good content. Yeah. And like, you know, these people are doing a lot. And so it's like they're, they're out there. But like, I don't know, I think I get a lot out of my conversations with them. Yeah. And I don't think I'm going to change much. Cool. I mean, I think the only thing is like, yeah, you, I'm not going to be like leaking memos. I don't know. I used to do leaks about one company's worrying about leaks. Yeah. And that was one of my favorite kinds of stories. I'm not going to do that anymore. I'm not going to do that anymore. I'm done. I'm done. You get a good one. No, a decade of that. And I'm good. You're hanging in the mouth. Is the is now a good time to become the next Alex Heath? Somebody's like 20, 2022. I think that's great. Yeah. I think it's really hard right now if you're early because it's just the media, the traditional media environment is so challenged structurally.

1:21:40And places that aren't really well. I feel like I feel like the the the ads product, the sponsorship product, some traditional stuff. No, I'm saying traditional. Yeah. Oh, but like, okay, so like newsroom he would start in the newsroom. How would you start? How would you how would you how would you you know, I've been fortunate people care because yeah, I've broken a lot of the stories. Yeah. And I've got a lot of the inner. When you and I would came up in an environment where like I was in a newsroom learning from incredible people. Yeah. Yeah. And incredible things are run now many of these newsrooms. So I don't know how you do that now. Like a lot of places aren't hiring. Their traffic's declining. They haven't made the pivot to like what we're doing. This direct thing like subscriptions like streaming. It's really tough. I thought about it. I don't know how you break out right now unless you just kind of are like a start. You maniacally focus on one thing and become the best in the world at that, which is how I started. Yeah. Which is like I'm going to be the best in the world at social media covering snap back on the day or in the IPO and then I was breaking a ton of news on snap. Yeah. And then I got noticed and then I was like I can shift this into other companies and keep shifting it and shifting it. Yeah.

1:22:41So I would still say that's it. You have to maniacally focus on one. Yeah. Definitely matters. But it's the intersection of niche and matters. It can't be. Yeah. What do you think about the possibility of instincts having a bigger valuation than snap? I think I mean I wouldn't be surprised. It's crazy out there guys. It's also a new category. And what do you guys think about instincts? I think that they're in a unique position because they're a startup so they can like eat theirs like rough edges like those can get those can get ironed out and they there's more forgiveness I think as opposed to your startup. Yeah. And the muse agent is going to be like congressional hearing if it's something goes poorly whereas instincts going to be like look it's a startup you knew you were you were an early adopter. Let's give them the benefit of it out here. Yeah. The other companies. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

1:23:41To me the most interesting dynamic right now is because of the people's fear around AI there's like way greater willingness to try new products because you don't want to be left behind. Right. You may somebody may have been trying and being a daily active user of a variety of AI products for years now and still they are like they want to try the new thing because one the space is progressing there's so much room for new products and new categories but then there's also this fear in the back of your mind of like if I don't try the new thing then like you know the permanent underclass meme and that's just consistently created this sort of second mover advantage third mover advantage and then AI brands once they're big they accumulate they've been accumulating baggage right and so people are like you know maybe they have some maybe they're just like they're excited to share and talk about the new thing in a way that that they wouldn't be even products that they're using day to day. So I think it creates a big opportunity for for startups but I think that we're I'm

1:24:47very interested to see how the personal agents market ends up comparing to just like the frontier model inference market because it seems like every company is going to build a personal agent many of them already have especially if you count LLAMs which do have a genetic or just like chat apps which do have a gen to capabilities but it's going to be an absolute it's going to be an absolute what that network effect and you get to some sort of take rate on agent to commerce like you buy your car through it and they make 500 bucks yeah that's it. Which is not told me will be the business from uses that's what he tries to do and he has a network effect to bring to it so yeah yeah instinct certainly challenger there are I'm really interested in the idea of network effects with agents yeah and and since things doing it town is doing it yep meta is going to do it yep and maybe that is the next that's the same time that's tricky if you can point an agent and say like get me off of this right well they're not people so it's like do you care yeah do you care for agents or network if it's but if you're like this one is the one that's never had a leak or never had a crash or never had a hack

1:25:50yeah then you do stick around yeah in theory like the time to build a new social network would be today because you could say like go through open up my snap account or LinkedIn and scrape out every single person I have they don't get a say in it and go add them on this new network right because like that that was like export the contact book was like arbitrage the closed yeah and it's kind of opening back up you think I think so I'm I'm waiting for you know that the criticism of social media was always like we created social media to be social and it's made us less social than ever and with personal agents it's like it's like less well less like personal like we don't have we're not going to have personal relationships with like service providers and and variety of things because it's like even even people some of these new functionalities which is like sorry grandma I don't want to talk about the road trip that we're going on just talk to my agent yeah you know and and and so the new criticism will be like we're not we're no one's talking to

1:26:51each other it's only agents talking you know we're communicating through like you know media can on a string or whatever yeah we we got a hop on with the test from positron uh this was great I'm super excited for you guys thank you big big big kind of both you let you let you help yeah sounds good you guys are going to absolutely come together thank you thank you thank so much let me tell you about MongoDB what's the only faster than the AI market your business on MongoDB don't just build AI own the data platform that powers it and let me also tell you about CrowdStrike your businesses AI their business is securing it CrowdStrike secures AI and stop reaches we are joined by Mitesh Agarwal from positron AI building a new chip for the AI era welcome what's going on how are you doing hey John Dirty pretty good how are you guys thanks so much for hopping on the show great good uh great to have you here I just want to start by saying um I've been in the background of Stephen doing this multiple times oh yeah and Stephen Stephen Dallavan from that's right

1:27:54he loved that one you guys said since my first sign on so thanks thanks for having me yeah how do how direct is the lineage from from Lambda you're working at effectively Neo Cloud you see the problem you go solve the problem externally with a new startup is is the story that simple yeah fairly I mean for me I mean like look I didn't found positron right positron was co-founded by Thomas Summers and Edward Comet sure another lineage uh broccoli lineage from from from from from before and and you know they they designed the actual so look in and and and the system set up and uh uh part of it is just like great luck you know I've known both Stephen and Thomas forever decade have been close friends with both of them have worked with them been roommates everything all all of all those things and Thomas has been wanting me to join positron since day one since he started the company in 2023 yeah um but Lambda was just starting on its hockey stick growth then and I was like look I'm not leaving Lambda started the company with Stephen there and Lambda Cloud but uh early 2025 man like late 24 you know reasoning models had come out oh when uh just started to

1:28:55to to get in the zeitgeist and then video generation um you know Sora first Sora came out not a lot of people saw it but I got to see a little bit behind the scenes on on the video generation models the amount of memory I remember looking at the Google Vio model back then you know you know needed four h-100s to run like a 10 second clip yeah it was completely memory bound on bandwidth and capacity and knew what Thomas was building I was like hmm this is actually very interesting memory uh is gonna get a big part of the story for inference uh uh someone is building something about it let me go get and and and work at the at actually the fundamental technology there like Lambda builds technology on the cloud and and services uh you know and I'm chemical engineering study fabrication never used it ever so I was like all right I'm gonna go back a little bit to my roots and then come back to it amazing how much is AI actually accelerating semiconductor design semi conductor fabrication uh we saw one of your investors Dylan Patel semi analysis talking about

1:30:01the the open-air jalapeno chip seemed like we're ahead of schedule or very very quick uh for a long time we've been hearing oh new chip that's three years that's five years feels like it's 18 months now what are you actually feeling what are you seeing yeah to start from it works like to answer your last part about it like man new chip every 12 months and Vio is the absolute thing and if they're coming out with the new silicon every 12 months you better get in that game or you know like you like don't even be part of the conversation kind of thing right so so that's that's for sure uh in terms of utilization of AI I mean look out I was just like focus on positive on itself but you know yeah we are a small team I mean um we we got to we we're right just now I mean just yesterday today crossed 100 people but over 50 of that is over the last three months so we got our first gen product out within less than 20 people um and that's built on FPGA so it's already retaped out silicon and we're deploying an implement in architecture and our second gen those are the on end of this those are the 50 Atlas racks you have it Oracle Oracle yeah those are FPGA's

1:31:05interesting yeah those are FPGA's and it's kind of like a harking back to a little bit of of previous times when you used to design and and build silicon you'd actually test on FPGA before going into the yeah about kind of uh thing so we just wanted to get a product out as quickly as possible like that was the whole thing it's like you know from the start of the company we got our first shipment to a customer in 15 months and it's you know it's built on FPGA's obviously but to get the full you know bit by already getting a deploy getting models running on it was all done in the first 15 months and then over the last time to has killed it out um but yeah I mean like look we have to use a lot of the AI toolkit especially on on on verification um design less so I would say I mean look obviously we use a lot to to kind of interact with like now aster for example this phenomena right you know to interact with it but you're still not going there I'm saying hey like come up with this like you just dying yet although like you know I'm asking me to recursive and others they are they're obviously you're built out and you know they raised a big round for for

1:32:07that as well right so it's gonna come you know you're gonna see very soon it's like one person an astero or one person an asteroist who taped out a chip kind of thing but uh we have to use it a lot I mean if you think about a hundred people or you know where it reached until very recently 50 people for a company that is targeting tape out end of this year to do with like 50-60 people as it's very tiny amount in in the silicon world what is the demand side of the equation work you're already working with uh jump trading i3d.net uh is this something where you like if you can get capacity if you can get performance some solid benchmarks uh you think that sales isn't gonna be a problem or are you going to have to find and work very closely with a customer to sort of co-design a solution for a particular problem within the AI stack yeah i don't want to to realize or make it sound simple like like that your sales guys might be listening and they're like we work very hard okay well we we only have let go you know like in that way right but but the

1:33:15point I will I'll make is um really around um the way we think about uh the demand curve is you're kind of you hitting the nail on the head and saying that like look if you can make your silicon work uh show the performance is comparable especially in the current ecosystem even within the niche of in doing this ag or something like that but especially if you can make the entire inference kind of workflow uh have a good tco um and or and generally people always assume it's an or that you have a good tco or you have a great interactivity curve but if you can do and or uh you know you're you're gonna bound to have get demand more importantly you know when we when you step into the rooms of like not only just jump trading or you know hedge funds or kind of inference as service providers but like really the big labs the hyper scalars kind of a two question that it blows down to is like hey like look guys can you fabricate this in enough quantities like you know is your supply chain and the way that you are using the technology components is it robust enough that you can fabricated that we can be interested in it and then the second thing they're asking is

1:34:16can we deploy it you know is is your power source like you know do you need this kind of liquid cool setup and and it's so then you know we don't we might not have a data center because we've already allocated to gpu's or tpu's or can you do something else so so the questions you can see there they are asking is not that hey like you know you know we we we we will see we don't we don't show up in the demand curve so so from that angle you are kind of spot on that look if you can make the frontier models run you know you're you're bound to find kind of adoption in into this market and that is a really like I mean I'm so like like you know as positive from we are so lucky to be building silicon in this environment and that's kind of what you're seeing for it's a looking companies is raising rounds right now yeah I think nine billion dollars has flowed into silicon companies over just the last 12 months and yeah which we were we were talking yesterday feels feels incredibly low relative to the spent like yeah annual spending in category Gavin Baker one of another one of your investors has this quote they hit where he says I see it as a

1:35:16one percent market share is a hundred billion dollar opportunity and that sounds like a crazy bull take and then you realize like wait no in video is a five-trunk dollar company like it's going to be a ten trillion dollar market like any day now and so yeah actually one percent should equal a hundred billion but yeah anything else no you like he said that in a board meeting to me like I don't even know like a year ago or something there is is basically like yeah he's like like look look look guys like Matech Thomas just just one percent of the market you know the hundred billion enterprise value just focus on your architecture where you can do well you know like one of things like you know people always like whenever a new new chip company raises round the headline and luckily you guys don't have that which is like oh to rival in video it's like guys like no no one is rivaling in video like get to at least 10 percent of their revenue before before putting the tagline on right better but like the point there is just like look and video is everywhere you got to work in that ecosystem to to both work with them but also like

1:36:18having a product that is differentiated you know like you have to have technical innovation obviously just stand out and then show your performance tco's and interactivity but then you also got to prove that like look in the world of hpm co-host constraint like for us our big stories are you know like look hpm and then co-host bottleneck you have nvidia tpu's AMD's ahead of you in the line you know how do you get around that well again you know you say okay we are using commodity memory well for when come no free lunch in silicon land like you know commodity memory slow how do you solve that that's where the technical innovation comes in and then second thing is like okay it's still not trivial to get commodity memory it's not like I can just show up to sound second like or micron you're like hey can you give me up to the rpx you know you have to still figure out how to how to get that implanted but it is more feasible to to get it and that becomes a story of that the company can then scale out and saying not only we're going to have a product but we're going to have a product that will scale with the requirements off hyper scalers and and then kind of the front you know how do you how do these how do these customers think about like the minimum scale when they're when they're working with you and they're looking at ordering order

1:37:20making orders that will be delivered in let's say 20 28 20 29 right you need to be able to and during that same time period right you know we saw Microsoft yesterday wants to add over 10 10 gig you know at extra 10 gigawatts right and so for you to be me yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah 26 yeah I was under in gigamon by 20 30 yeah so so you're sitting there and like to really be worth a company at that scale's time you need to be thinking about like it's almost like hey the orders we want delivered in 20 29 are like a proof of concept for like the 20 32 order which will be you know at at some scale to actually impact and and be able to scale the fleet in a meaningful way but but how are you thinking about like that feels like the biggest challenge is like minimum viable sort of like deployment I mean like literally you kind of circle back on like as I said when we walk in these meetings and like look the scale depends on like if you're going into hyper scalers and frontier labs and I said the first question they ask is like guys can you fabricate like this

1:38:20like in in enough and the question there is like in enough quantities that it's like to work well to us and and that answer for hyper scalers and and frontier labs like honestly they will literally say gigawat plus like come up to us with the proposal of a gigawatts which is kind of insane like in a gigawatts like even at a video scale you're talking about 40 billion 35 percent in dollars of revenue for them right even you know assume asick cheaper a lot of all those things you're still talking about tens of billions of dollars right but like at least you have to show a plan of like how do you get to hundreds of megawatts in you know to to use your like year specific at 2028 you know for us we're taping out this year production kind of ramp up in second half of 2027 in 2028 we better have a plan of how do we get to like hundreds and I don't want to just say hundred cop out by saying hundreds as in just a hundred megaline hundreds means truly like in a three four five and a half for for those but yeah so that's fine the next scale up you're in that gigawatts range yeah exactly and but also like I also don't want to discount the fact that you have other customers like you know you have inferences service provider so obviously sovereign

1:39:24AI clouds you know quantity to finance quantity to finance kind of spectrum and so they have like different magnitudes of kind of requirements that that come through with it so you know we although we do internally use kind of go big or go home as a thing like we have to attract one of these large customers to to really be a long-term viable company you know I don't want to just like discount the fact that like look you can grow the company through the ranks as well like you can grow the company you know get two hundred million revenue for two fifty million a billion two billion two billion through through this other kind of channels as well right I think that that that becomes a big part of it but yeah like if you really want to get to like the frontier labs and hyperskilaires you're really talking about hundreds of megawatts and that's why like you know like look when we you know we we we eventually take alliance on our kind of captable and when we speak with TSMC for fat capacity they're also wanting to know kind of like can you scale like you know do you have the the balance you to do that like the one of the reasons we raised you know 875 million is not like we need 875 million to spend tomorrow or even in the next six months so I mean look we

1:40:27raised to 30 million in series B in February of this year untouched right we still have all that capital part of it is that we have been making revenue this year but we do have planned to spend that very quickly thank you the main point that is there though is like look they they want to know like if you actually get a customer you have the capital and and even that capital is that is not enough equity capital to scale out to even you know 200 megawatt right then you have to go to the black stones of the world and figure out how do you how do you finance that deal and what land has done right so what's the software side of the equation you're coming for Nvidia you're challenging them you're gonna drive their market cap to zero obviously this is a market that can sustain multiple players and there's different tools with job but interoperability is important and I'm interested in terms of software development are you going to lean more open source with

1:41:34the software side of the business or more integration with just a few buyers and co-design on the software side to make sure the integration is really seamless is is there even do we even need to be having a software conversation in an era where AI agents can write code yeah I mean you definitely need the software conversation because like you you have to plan around how people want to use it and people want to use it how they're currently using it and going to continue to use it which is based on Nvidia stack but also primarily based on PyTorch and then you know VLLMS she langs to and I'm specifically focused on on inference happens like look training you know that's such a hard or challenge like when what Jensen says like true mode around scale out and everything right like that's just that's the only reason you have probably only tpu as this potential kind of only other silicon that can be used for training right so sure sure but but on the inference side of things for sure you have to have the conversation I will say this in the in the era of

1:42:36agent to kind of software development the the worry is around like hey you know model drops if you don't have access to it it takes you days weeks months to bring it up it's going away like you know we had news glimmer drop and within our team you know on our at last first and could get it up and running within hours right you know and that yeah exactly like I have the same reaction by the way sorry when we had that and and people are making it even faster and more automated too like you don't even have to interact model drops comes in can can probably do it in well and that's a very near future open but to that point it doesn't give you the right away the efficiency the optimization sure like you know you want extra every dollar of it so to your question around you know when the customer is large enough you want to work closely with them to like literally extract every single dollar and also like I'll be very frank like on topic open AI this frontier labs hyperscarters they are so sophisticated they kind of want to come in and be like look guys we're even if you don't want it we are working with you to make sure that this is like going to like you know this is this is optimized to the to the full as right so you so the answer

1:43:40as always in in the scenario is all of the bow you know even though it might sound like it's like oh it's a very clear answer but it really is that way sounds like the mafia coming in oh your software stack is an open source so you're about to open it for me the software stack is like gonna be built around open source like in the sense of like if you want to make like every company to to use us for inference yeah you have to build it on sql and and real and kind of set up right so so but you know it's like when you're talking to SpaceX or on topic or open AI they're not using the generic sql and real and they have all their optimizations built in and they're gonna help you do that then obviously there's dissag then within this side there's all their different domains that they they do and they're gonna figure out that's like oh how pinio is good for this all the tronia you're good for this you know and then they're gonna they're gonna say okay that's how we're gonna use you guys amazing well exciting times uh this is super fun for you you hear it is 875 that was a solid one thank you thank you thank you thank you so much great stuff great to meet you

1:44:42keep an eye out on instagram because we're definitely dropping uh and video challenger slide later today please do not associate my phone with that well have a great rest of your day looking forward to the next appearance have a good one great to hang goodbye cheers let me tell you about real way real way is the only one intelligent cloud provider user-favoriting to deploy web app servers databases and more well real way automatically takes care of scaling monitoring and security and last the New York Stock Exchange want to change the world raise capital at the New York Stock Exchange that's the positive tron over there pretty soon pretty soon pick in those first ones wonderful week wonderful week short week yeah but Monday 11 a.m. do you say favor and go ahead and have the best weekend best your entire life the best weekend of your entire life do it do it put the pieces together make it happen we'll see you on Monday leave us five stars an apapycast and Spotify sign up for a newsletter tvpn.com goodbye