Blue Jays Bats Come Alive in Cleveland + The Latest on Kawhi

0:00. . And morning shows force at five nine in the band and Stan Yellow French Eski. Kevin Barker. Blair Barker joins us now as the Blue Jays. When a series against the Cleveland Guardians, good morning, Barker. How you doing, buddy? I'm doing well, like your new intro music. Yeah, that's was fun. Yeah, it's better than the other ones. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Less said about that, the better. Anyways, I don't know what you want me to follow that. Nothing. I don't want you to follow it up at all. Anyways, Blue Jays quite good now. It seems or at least were against a 500 Guardians team. How impressed should we be taking two out of three against a Guardians team that is still in that that final wildcard spot in the American League? How do you know I think they're playing as a team? You know, and

1:00I think you could see if Laddie, you know, had some advance to where he's beaten guys to the spot. You know, he can help them kind of take it to a different level. Now, is that sustainable? Who knows? I've no idea. I haven't seen him have good swing after good swing in in quite some time, but he has had some of those. So, you know, with that and and sort of the cast the characters and, you know, they didn't play a third lineup yesterday. I mean, yeah, you probably kind of because of who's pitching for the Guardians and what those three right handed haters have been bringing lately. I mean, I guess you could sell that that you'd rather have left. He's in there and you know, the sweeper away to sink or an it gives a bunch of right. It's all kinds of headaches. But, you know, it's a job to be able to think that, you know, he's got enough team that he can sit. I served at his lineup that plays every day and run out. Some other guys out there to say hit on the other side of the plate and think they're going to be competitive. It's just to put us to everybody that's on

2:02that team that roster. Everybody's buying into it to whatever the coaching staff and the front office is selling. So, yeah, and obviously the pitching's been better. You know, the didn't stand on the mountain. The story on a, you know, occasionally he'll throw some ball out of the hand and be a little non competitive but both stuff off the charts. I mean, it's just he'll study. He can stuff you get that. See, he can muscle his way through some bad times, which is exactly what we saw yesterday. And then what that does is just allow that lineup to have a big any like they had in the fifth. So, yeah, I mean, I don't know how much you're buying into this. I just think they're playing as a team. They have more speed now because of the, you know, sort of the guys that John can run out there that are not the everyday guys. And their bullpen's been outstanding for who knows how long. I mean, it's been a minute since we've complained about the bullpen. You get it to about the sixth inning most of the time that game's over and that just, you know, gives John, you know, able

3:03to take a deep breath and go, OK, how do I, how do I just push it to this guy? How do I get it to high leverage guys? They got more than two down there, which is kind of nice to see Spencer Miles is taking a big John step forward. So yeah, right now I think it's going on the road. You know, with the way they're having some troubles at home hitting, it's almost better that they're on the road here. They're running through this. They're getting all parts of their game all coming together at the same time. Yep, six to go as part of a nine game road trip. They do seem to play, I don't know, a little bit looser free at times on the road. Then perhaps at home this season, Kevin going back to Vladimir Grotto Jr. for a second. And you mentioned we, I mean, you're right. We haven't seen it really at all this year, stringing together quality at bats or, you know, venues that were professional at bats. I think that's probably an app description for it. The last two days, obviously a little bit better, nice to have the middle game of the series where he was unbelievable. Pointed out on the broadcast yesterday, there's that slight potential adjustment with

4:04his front foot. Now, from a hitter's perspective, how significant of a change is that? And when you saw that, A, did you notice it? Because is it really noticeable? And B, what is the perhaps the intent behind it? Yes, I've noticed it. I went back. I heard Caleb say that I'd text Caleb a couple of times as and you don't worry seeing that. Who he's talked to. You know, I can't really tell. Maybe it's just because I've seen him so much and I, you know, tried to break him down so much that I just I just don't notice the hill off the ground. You know, it looks to me like he might be a little bit more pigeon toad. You know, if Caleb seen that, he's probably had conversations with enough people that's talked him into to saying that he's raised it off the ground a little bit more again. I get back to that, you know, we even had a caller. The the night after he'd had the really good night saying that he had seen the seal off the ground a little bit more. And that's

5:04what made me go back and watch video 2025. Again, if he's doing it, I don't really see it. But again, I want to your question about what would that do that just basically gives you a feel like, you know, you can go anybody can go stand up out of your chair. If you're listening to me, if you're if you're in the car, wait till you park, get out and just raise the hill off your front foot. One of your feet and you can feel where your weight set like it's it's one of those things where now I don't have to think about it. If my heels off the ground, it just allows me to know where my weight set all the time without me actually transferring my weight to where it needs to go. I think that's the whole point, right? Is just trying to get a good feel of staying behind the baseball. The last two days he's been behind the baseball like the the 100 mile hour single single that he hit to right field the sack fly that he hit yesterday behind the ball, the curve ball

6:06he's got lean back that's behind the baseball, right? That means his weight where he wants it to be during transfer that allows his his barrel to get to a effort with Spanish. You guys have asked me about him a thousand times and I said until he starts getting to an effort with Spanish, you know, we used to call that takes your picture, you know, don't be afraid to get your picture in the paper the next day with that effortless finish. And the last couple days we've been seeing him do that. So yeah, again, cable does a nothing to homework to know. I know we broke that he he showed a close up of that early in the game and his first back. I really don't see it. He might be a little bit more pitch and toes like I said. But hey, you know, a little a lot this time of the year. So for him to be doing anything a little bit different will just tell you that he's starting to more fake about seeing the ball in the spot that he thinks he can get to an effortless finish and not thinking about his

7:07lower half because he's made that little minor tweak and that's exactly what you want. You just you wanted as simple as possible. You know, you Daniel, you started you told me started this conversation about they seem like they're playing looser on the road and they are at home. Well, I would think it would start because the big fell ain't hit a homework. Yeah, you know, if we know it all, everybody else knows it. You know, we we all know that he's trying to force the ball in the air to the pool side. You can see it. You don't have to be a hitting dooo if you watch him to know he's trying to do that. And on the road, that looks like he's doing that. Like he's he's hitting to the situation. Right? If I get the hundred away, I'm just staying tall. I'm balanced. I'm behind the baseball and getting to an effortless finish because I'm really good at hitting ball comes off back really hard and I'm rewarded for it. Same with the hanging breaking balls. So yeah, it's just, you know, if he can continue to do that, just, you know, it's probably not going to do that on an everyday basis. But if he can

8:08be productive in certain situations, sex lives, moving guys over the third, let's say you pass the baton, right? It's not rolling over a ball. You should be hitting to the outfield with some authority to have a productive at bat because you're not staying behind the baseball. And the last two days for me, it's been the best two days he's had all year, which is a breath of fresh air because, you know, the the cancer see a dime of the record, but they can throw smarts at you like they're going to pound what he don't do well. And he's going to have to really hone in on forcing them into his own that he can get to it after the Spanish and I think he can do that. It just takes his team to hold that for level. You guys have said it's yeah, they're very legit playoff team when he thought. Yeah, there's no doubt about it. Like you can see, I said that to Jeff when we get the post game show after he had the really good day. The second after the second ending, that game was over. And that was because of the game. And that was really good. And that was like one

9:09dude. If he could continue to do just that, occasionally, not all the time. He lived and asking to do it all the time because he does have nine more home games, but just occasionally have one of those games. They don't make the playoffs because they're pitch. He's good enough. Yeah, if he was having a normal Vlad season, they'd already be in a playoff spot. Absolutely. Well, let's not talk about that. Let's talk about what he's doing good now. Yeah, he's a great stuff. And he took a walk. There is one of the nine that the Blue J's had yesterday. Oh my god. He's a decent game, necessarily. It is a slog. Like we don't have many three and a half hour games, but we had one yesterday. This Blue J's team has not been good at taking walks this year. It's not like the walks are the byproduct of better at bats. Like how much of that has been missing from this team because we got it. Like they don't hit enough home runs, got to hit more home runs. But last season, they weren't the greatest home run hitting team. They weren't the greatest walking team, but they were a lot better than this. Like, God, you put the ball in play, but it just it feels like that the quality of bats are the big issue and getting the starter out of the game. It's it seemed like there was a real concerted effort yesterday to take some

10:09walks and have good at bats. And I'm not sure. You know, I think a well, well, well, I mean, I think I'll buy me had more trouble of finishing the secondary stuff, getting the the elevated movement where he wanted to go. Be more competitive at that, trying to get him in swing mode early. You can tell he was grinded through. It was hot. Yeah. Yesterday, a lot of different players handle heat in a lot of different ways. And you can tell both sides, especially on the pitching side, weren't handling very well. Like it just it adds a whole different element to it. But to your question, look, I think good swings talk the other picture and to walking you. I think that's what it is. It changes their game plan enough that they have to be a little finer. And they think they have to really hit the edges and live on sort of my misses have to be on point. I can't miss in the middle of the zone. I can't miss me to the order because if I do that once or not of this line, I'm just going to put some good swings on it. So I think there's a different ways you can you can

11:11talk about walking. Can't just walk up there going. I'm walking right now. I'm not I'm not. But if you're not getting out here, I'm not, I'm not, you know, hit the home. I'm swinging at bad like borderline pitches. Yeah, like I think that again, it's a byproduct of just better at bats. I thought there were better at bats. They were. Yeah, I think to hear that was, you know, a little bit more on point with just the way they were taking baseballs, the way they were getting in some better hitters counts the way, you know, there's a little bit more threat because by the head, the work both sides in the plate right there were enough writings in there that he would have to throw the sinker. There was enough lefties in there that, you know, the spin early and counts had to be on point. Like that's why John was trying to balance it out and, you know, not put all three writings in there, which would make it a little easier for Bobby to work one side of the plate with one certain speed. And now you got because you, you know, you sort of got a little bit more balanced and you got to work both sides and up to lefties because most

12:11of the lefties to the blue jays don't like the the ball up, which is most lefties in the big leagues. You got to fit that up the right way and if you're not on point with your mechanics and the pace down the hill and the finish, you're going to be a little erratic or walks of people and then somebody will have a good chance of having a quality of that like Nathan Lucas did. So yeah, I just, you know, again, I think when your best hitter is starting to look like he's supposed to look, it just kind of makes it harder for everybody else to stacing everybody else, making that quality pitch. Like now I got to work around that dude. It works so hard. Now I got to figure out how to get this cutter up and in or that sinker up which they like to throw, which is a two-samer that spying off of that like. You got to work a little harder to get through when your best hitters being your best hitter. You know what else I think helps having a dude atop the lineup that just continues to get on base all the time. 22 big league games and up and it's just plug

13:13and play right at this point. John can show up to the yard on any given day and say, all right, what's our discussion when it comes to the lead off spot? If he's not getting a day off and he's in there, he's hitting lead off breath payment. That is. So it feels like that that probably helps when you have a threat atop the order who is not just sitting the tone. He's getting on base. Kevin, but also because it feels like the at bats are just of high quality, right? He's he's making the picture work and he puts the ball in play and then when he gets on base, he's a threat to run. There was something there in the sixth inning yesterday. I mean, I I'm glad the broadcast isolated it in that it might have been his third or fourth out of the game at that time where he's moving around in the box. I'm like as he's almost toying with the picture in terms of the timing and whatnot. I can't recall seeing that like how unusual for is is something like that, especially for a guy who's only been in the big leagues for 22 games. That was his 22nd game yesterday and he just

14:13looks like he's really comfortable, especially as a lead off man. Yeah, because of the L. Speed Pitches, right? He's trying to catch it out right because he's staking up the middle of the other way that all speed pitch is hard to add links with with your barrel and the closer you are to and the easier it is to hit it where you want it to end up, which makes total sense. Yeah, yeah, it's nobody does that. Like yes, I'll be something he's done in the minor leagues. I don't think he's done it this year. We would we would have noticed that's a that's a pretty big move. He was moving around a lot. You know, would you make that a habit against the guy who knows how to pitch? Probably not. I mean, you know, yeah, I hate to be the old guy yelling at the clouds, but it's if a veteran guy when I played saw me do that, I'd say I would have thrown it my absolute. Like I guess you just that's that's the difference in the game now and and these young guys can basically do whatever they want to do. Then when I played, I hate to be that guy. Now you love it. You love it. It's true. It's true. You would have worn it. Like it and he would and he would

15:15yell it in instead move around the box more like doing some more fun throwing it your neck. Do it. Do it more. Do it more. I see you doing what you're doing. Do it more. But again, to your point, yeah, he seems to have a pretty good idea of how his feet make his hands work in a direction that allows him to be consistent with his moves. That's very hard to do. It's he's just straight up and down guys straight up and down guys lose a lot of balance. Balance is a big deal. And for him to be able to have the balance and you know, sometimes the long stride moves ahead too much when the head moves. That's that's why you know, it is a little odd that they haven't forced him to pull the baseball. Right. I think that is the next move of he's been really good of inside outing balls. He's been really good at laying all pitches to get balls to inside out to go the other way. For me, that's the next move to

16:15combat that is to force him to get the head out out of you do that. Right. That's why for me, moving closer on changeups. He doesn't have to do that. He can stay inside baseball because if he stood where he normally stands, he's right. He's hitting that to the pull side. He don't seem to want to do that. Like he'll do it occasionally early in counts against the left because gets left is he's just trying to get barrel the ball. It's not really guiding it where he wants to go now against the righty depending on the speed and where his hand direction is just kind of the finish. Again, every one of these hitters are all the same. Now, all of them don't have the same amount of power. It's all of them are the same when it comes to their finish. If it's effortless and it looks like they're not forcing that, everything's working in unison and they're swinging at the pitch they want to swing at. So yeah, he's been great. Like it's nobody could expect of this. Not even John. I asked John this a couple of days ago, I called him on the phone. He said no chance. I mean, we thought he was athletic. We had no idea I'll

17:16basically what we were going to get. Differently, they knew that he was, you know, probably not a lead because at this level, you got to just how they coming off the bat, the angles. They had to see that play out that's playing out to where you're okay seeing him play all three positions. But I'll physically lead not fitting in second. Nobody could expect this. This is kind of what when you're making a run, you need a surprise. Yeah. This is to do, right? It just seems like this is the guy that's kind of stepped up and you need a bump, you need a stolen base. He's adding that to the next now, the stolen base, which, you know, but just he start seeing him a little bit more. No one how he gets his lead, how he jumps around, how big a secondary lead is just tells bud, you know, sort of gives him an idea of window line and up to give him a better chance to be successful run of the base. So with the coaching staff who is really good with him being mindful of just everything when I'm here. This is what I need to do when I'm

18:17there. That's what I need to do. And not sort of over thinking it and not letting the moment overwhelming. He's been, he's been unbelievable. And if they make the playoffs, he's one of the big reasons why. Totally. And I'm sick of hearing about his lack of power. He has a lack of power for sure. Since that's, I, I, numerous people when I ask about his future with this team is like, I don't know, you can probably do better. I don't know if you're going to do better than a three 80 on base out of your lead off spot with the guy with speed who plays great defense. Like, yeah, no, he's not going to hit a ton of home runs. If any at all, but if you can get on base 38 and in the minor leagues, it was almost 40% of the time he got on base. Yeah, that, that definitely plays the top of your line of a guy with speed who in the the eye test would show that he knows how to play the parents. Right. For sure. What is the adjustment to him? Yeah, well, that ultimately the other way. You don't take this catch. You stand there going, okay? I see him. We're right. You this. Yeah, yeah. How is he going to handle raising him this? That's why every time Jeff asked me the same thing that that

19:19you just asked me about him and I said, I don't think you know, we'll stop with the car before the horse. Let's just let's just respect what he's doing right now and not worry about what it's going to look like going forward, right? What what are you doing right now? It's just sort of going to give him a little bit longer at least of what he does struggle next year. Are you going to struggle for sure? I guess baseball. Yep, but how's the struggle going to look? That's the question. Yep. And you know, hopefully the confidence that he's getting, the him seen breaking balls, him facing lefties. Yeah. John giving him confidence to put him up at the top of the order. Maybe all this helps. Maybe that that will allow him. Maybe him moving around the box. Maybe that will allow him to shorten up the struggles. You know, that's what it's all about. Right. If you go through it, how quickly can you get out of it? Yeah, and also the ability to take a walk and also when you know that, hey, this is a certain amount of ground balls that are going to be base hits as well. Like that makes you a little more like he's going to have definitely a cold spell

20:20in his career. We haven't seen that yet. But yeah, when you can take a walk and when you can bun for a basehead or like a routine ground ball sometimes as a base hit that does it makes it a more palatable experience going through the days where you don't feel at your bastard or you're being exposed by certain. It's been a spark for sure. No, he's been great. Okay, last one for me before we go, Barker. Jay's learned how to ABS challenge yesterday. That was a huge part of the win. And I know the numbers don't suggest they're one of the worst ABS challenging teams in baseball. But man, I test it seems like they have no clue or no philosophy. And you saw early in the game, Brandon Valenzuela like checking himself and not challenging pitches that he might have challenges and he might have won those ones. But he understood, hey, we got to wait until there's leverage. Like, what are we doing here? It feels like maybe they're starting to learn, hey, first second inning in the middle of a account with nobody on base, probably not a great idea to challenge. Yeah, I'm not sure about the misses and the hits on that.

21:21Maybe the situation that they're trying to do it in. Yeah, maybe that's it. You know, Brandon's been some of those with with pitches on the maladies trying to get through. You know, one of them was the was to strike out thing with Sherzer that he was trying to tap at to help him get through the first inning. That kind of thing like, you know, there's certain situations, you know, Valenzuela's not playing every day either. So when he was playing every day, maybe not with the day D.S. He just looked like the movements were way much better. Like they were quicker. He was sharper with his with his mind. Like, when you play more, it just seems to be something that you don't have to think about when you're not playing a lot. You're trying to figure out ways to play more. And that's not the easiest thing to do. So, you know, you give him my think a little bit of a hall pass. Yeah, the the strike three ABS challenge with Valenzuela in the fifth inning was huge. Probably the biggest part of the game. Totally. To get nice into the to the plate and have that that that he had. So yeah, look, I, you know,

22:21Kirk, he for me, sometimes when he calls, if I have no idea why he's calling this, I, yeah, you know, Kirk, he seems to have a hall pass for everything. Yeah. I, and I don't really get that. But it is what it is. You know, I have talked to John a couple of, not a ton because he's got a lot to worry about. The ABS thing is, you know, it's not something that they're really going to hammer home. You know, it was, I think in the last series, it was controlling the running game. That, that was a really big deal. I thought they did a better job of that. There was slide step a little bit more. They were pitching quicker. They were holding the ball till the last second. I, you know, I know PD was our show a couple days ago. That was a huge topic of conversation. I know there has been some heated conversations around controlling the running game. I haven't heard any heated conversations about the ABS. I just think they've had so much going on. Trying to fix the digits first, trying to, you know, make up for the do not do anything at first, trying to figure out the rotation.

23:23You know, they have a, they do have a lot of faith in Kirk. You know, Kirk, he has, I'm with you. I test why just when he does, it's just my boggling. You just want to walk over and say, dude, dude. Yeah. I want that. That's all I need to say to you is, dude, like I don't do it anymore. Like I just don't think they've had, I just don't think they've had. I just don't think, I don't want to say they don't care. I just don't say, you know, I think there's so much on their plate. And the coaching, you know, a lot of the times because John, who John has to use coming out of the pen, a lot of the times he gets destroyed for people, act them like they don't know how to manage. So it's just so much going on, you know, yesterday, if that not playing the three offensive does had to work out, he would have been destroyed. Oh, I was ready. 100%. And it was the right move. It really was. If you left off and you went back and looked at it, with who don't like what and what then three guys consistently haven't been doing,

24:27it really was the right move. But if it hadn't worked out, you know, the armchair manager would have been destroying them. And probably this show that I'm talking to. Right. Sure. Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. Remember when he didn't start Kirk in spring or in the first game of the Royals series after the day off? That was a travesty and they lost that game. Yeah, yeah. I think there was more to it than than what we knew, which is probably, you know, that's at least what I was told. Okay. There was more to that. It was more about the player and I was, I was, it was brought to my attention that, that, that, that the person that makes out that lineup and it is the manager. Okay, he does get a lot of feedback from Kathy Sam. This is what I do. This is where I put him. This is why I hit this certain individual. It's his call. He takes all that information. He sits down. He makes out a couple of lineups that he thinks makes total sense. Like how they use that bullpen. They get a lot of, you know, feedback from, you know,

25:28smarter people that are telling them using them in this pocket, throw them in that pocket. And it's John's final call. So yeah, it's the ABS thing. I lost a little track there. I think they're in the, you know, what you liked have had it the night ending absolutely because they got a punch out yesterday. And the night ending with a couple of dudes on it. What went out of doubt like you know, they're not trying to do these things. I just think the best I understand is the coachy staff don't try to make a huge deal out of it. They just say, I'm up to use it so early. Yeah, no, they should make a big deal out of it. It's a very hard game. Yeah, I get back to that. Kirk, he getting my whole past. He doesn't want like with this fan base with this show. I'm sure my show, you're going to complain about his play reason. Now, Kathy's been good on my show. Anybody listed the my show? I treat Kirk, you like everybody else. Yeah, sure. That's fine. Yeah, yeah. Why do you think John's taking him out of the two hole? Because you run like a turtle and it takes three triples to store him from first. That's correct. You did what you have to do, right? So I'm not, you know, I'm not saying that's a bad thing.

26:30Everybody else is every player's fault. Guy has a stolen basis here. I don't know what you're talking about. So, and speed demon. Yeah, and the dual threat. That's more, that's more the opposing thing. Yeah, all of them at his church. What a line. The coaching staff more worried about trying to get an all-factor player to second to make it easier than that ABS thing. So you just say, you just made my argument for me. All right. Well, you're welcome. They're more paying attention to getting Kirkki to second base than they are that ABS thing. So yeah, I'm with you. It's been an eye store. For a while, I know for a fact that something they will figure and correct in the offseason. I know for a fact that will be corrected. And it will look way better. But hopefully they've made some minor tweaks to it. And the last 21 games, it'll look exactly the way it looks. And you'll have at least one of those to use the knife that is that's the key. Yes. That's a complete one and a nice thing you can use. And two would be all the better.

27:31Anyways, I don't get greedy. Don't get greedy. Three. I'm about three. I don't know. Did you buy some or something? I don't know. Anyways, okay. Kevin, always a pleasure. Thanks for this, buddy. Yeah, thanks for the change of my song. And thanks for having me. You guys have a great weekend. Nice to meet you too, man. Kevin Barker, a Blair and Barker. Okay. Yeah, the Blue Jays. Shocking. This is shocking stuff. Fourth best winning percentage when it comes to ABS challenges by batters. Okay. Small. And 55%. That. Wow. They're one of the worst when it comes to catch your challenges. Yeah, I knew. Yeah. So I thought they were kind of middle of the road. But yeah, that's, the one for my batters is a little bit surprising. Honestly, I am actually surprised by that. They're bad because the situations they challenge in are a very bad. Anyways, when we come back, Kauai, not yet a Raptor, but on the verge, it seems we'll talk to Howard Beck of the Ranger Naxx. As the fan morning show continues, Ben, I understand you, L.A. Francesca, you sports that 590, the fan.

28:38Download the show on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Fan morning shows, 4759, the fan, Ben, and Estonia, L.A. Francesca. So Clippers fans, if they exist, coming to grips with the fact that they will not have a first round pick for forever. Just have to sneak that in it. Sorry, they're own, they're own first round pick. They may very well have a couple of Raptors unprotected first round picks if and when this Kauai trade goes through, but five of them removed from their own coffers yesterday, as well as $30 million fine bunch of suspensions, including Steve Balmer for a year. Let's talk to Howard Beck, senior writer at the Ranger. Good morning, Howard. How's it going? Good all right. Good morning. So let's start just with this. Where was your level of surprise at the level of punishment levied towards the Clippers yesterday?

29:41It's a hard thing to kind of define because at the moment that publicory first reported this a year ago, I thought, oh man, this is huge. They have to hammer them. But in the wake of that, there was so much cynicism around the NBA. I don't mean this just from fans and pundits or media people. This was like a lot of people around the NBA who thought, like, oh, this is the league really going to punish its most powerful and wealthiest owner. And oh, is this evidence to circumstantial? Is there enough concrete evidence? Is there a smoking gun? Do they need a smoking gun? And so it was always a little clouded in terms of like, what was the process going to look like? What was the standard of proof going to be for the league? How much would the law firm gather over the course of its investigation? And when it kept getting prolonged, you could interpret that either way. Well, they haven't found anything yet. So they've got to keep going. Or maybe they found a lot, but they're trying to make sure they firm it all up. But they can't leave anything open. Any holds because the Clippers will go to town on them. And so it was really

30:46hard to just get a sense of where it was going. All that said, like seven months ago, word made the rounds and NBA circles. And I heard this from multiple people at the time. And some of them, we all checked in with each other recently because the punishment that came down this week was effectively what people were talking about in February. I'm telling you, like, this circulated through the break by at one point. And it was bombers getting suspended. Lawrence Rink is getting suspended. And they're going to lose a bunch of picks. And then once that didn't happen at the time that we were hearing this. And by the way, this is not some like great insight info. This is just gossip chain stuff. And though it turned out to be the case, I don't know that anybody truly, truly knew anything. And the reason I say it is the law firm ain't leaking. If the law firm were leaking, we would have, the hand would have been tipped long ago. But there were versions of this that we thought were going to happen. But by the time that actually happened and by the time, you know, now two weeks ago, we've got the SPN reports saying they're not going to be found at

31:48guilty of anything. And so it's like, well, man, maybe they're just going to get a slap on the wrist. Maybe this will become, you know, maybe, you know, and of course, the consequences for doing nothing would have been massive. But it started to sound like it was going that direction. And then suddenly boom, it's the the stiffest punishment in NBA history. Okay. So this is something else that yesterday we talked about this story. Obviously, and we've also approached it from a raptors perspective with Kauai Leonard likely to be traded here, just waiting for that deal to be finalized and then subsequently processed. But how are on an ownership level for the NBA when it comes to that the board of governors? What do you think the reaction would have been like among that contingent, that cohort of owners that there's nobody as powerful as wealthy as Steve Balmer in that room. But what do you what do you suspect might have been the actual response to this lingering investigation that took nearly a year from when it was first on Earth by Pablo Torrey? And the

32:54punishment like is it is it is it a is there an element of Adam silver having to save face with the other 29 owners in this league by handing down a punishment like this? It's kind of a hard thing to get. I can't I can't tell you exactly how 29 other billionaires mostly billionaires yeah for some are are greeting this. What I can tell you is that from the moment this story, you know, first came to light a year ago with with Pablo's podcast yeah, there were a lot of people around the league, especially in front offices and I think this also includes a lot of owners who felt like well, okay, we all do some things around the the edges of this league at times right? tampering happens constantly every team tamper's tanking happens almost every team at some point has tanked injuries are embellished or obfuscated and in terms of impermissible benefits to that I think borrow from like the NCAA world

33:59in terms of like salary kept scurrying like there's always been like little stuff around the edges but as people told me a year ago when I was you know trying to follow up on this story and just getting engaged from people like well how unusual is this and everybody's thinking like listen have we found ways to like you know give a guy a couple bucks extra on the side like with the local car dealership or something like sure but nothing on this scale have we ever done or have we've never heard of anybody else having ever done and by the way if the clippers get away with this everybody's going to do it so they've got to do something about it like they can't if this is all true this is you know a year ago if this is all true people were saying then the league has to come down on them they have to put a stop at this because otherwise the wild wild west and so to answer your question you know I could I can pretty well guess that the other owners all wanted something to happen all wanted to cease a stiff enough punishment to keep them from doing this themselves because they don't want to have to do it frankly like it that's that's a lot of extra

35:01work and also anything that the league has done to create competitive balance could be undone by that because now it's well who can cheat the best or who can line up the best sponsors or maybe it goes back to like even helping the biggest markets because they've got the most fortune 500 companies to potentially tap into so you don't you don't want that you want to in listen this is in any game right and if they ever play fantasy sports even if you've ever played monopoly you want to know that we're all playing by the same rules otherwise it starts to get really bitter and not so fun really fast yeah I mean I don't know if I necessarily want that in my sports it's the the way North American pro sports works outside of major league baseball which is head in that direction as well like I do kind of like the open market like and and the the biggest market and the teams of the the deepest pockets to have a greater advantage and not the teams to have no chance right there are mechanisms by which in major league baseball has this year under team control

36:01for six years and teams have been able to be competitive enough like I I mean that's a separate conversation. Yeah the rules are the rules in this sport and pretty clearly the the Clippers did not abide by them and yeah Kauai Leonard asked for asked for that to happen or Uncle Dennis did whatever and I guess yeah the league is pretty adamant and it's findings that it was just Uncle Dennis that knew about this or at least couldn't prove that Kauai knew any of this was happening and you it have to be pretty naive not to to know that this was happening on your behalf and why you had 80 extra million dollars but whatever they couldn't they couldn't prove it so he was I mean barely punished not punished really and what is the perception around the league about his lack of punishment I understand the reasons for it and the league not wanting to go go to war with the PA but what what is that the perception of Kauai and his lack of punishment from your league sources. People I talked to this week pretty universal in a couple different points the first one was that they were relieved and happy to see that that Adam Silver and the league actually did act on this

37:07and that this was really necessary to stem the potential for everybody you know going out and trying to do the same everybody thought that the punishment was was was appropriate and everybody was with regard to the Clippers and everybody was every single person I talked to has been disappointed that Kauai Leonard was not punished more more you know more strictly because yeah it's impossible to not know it's impossible and like there are other rules in the NBA for instance they start this rule back in the early 2010s where if you're agent or your dad or anybody demanded a public trade on your behalf you the player got fined because you are responsible for the people in your sphere and the league does not allow public trade demands you can leak it you can do all these other ways it's really easy to do otherwise but you can't come out of the player and say I want to be traded and you cannot have anybody on your behalf say either you get fined if that happens you are responsible for by a principle and in practice everybody in your sphere

38:10and to your point Kauai is casting all these checks where's the money coming from I mean come on the idea that he didn't know is ridiculous um the league didn't let him off easy because they couldn't prove anything the league let him off easy because they needed the players association to buy into this and sign off on it all because that was what slammed the door on the Clippers being able to challenge anything I don't want get into the weeds of all of it but it's a CBA issue and the CBA sign between the players association and and the league and you can see it right in the NBA's press release that the players association has and and the league agreed on the punishment for Kauai Leonard and that makes it final so there's no challenge there's no anything else and it doesn't leave the door open for the Clippers to then say well if the players association is challenging it we can now use it as an opening to contest everything that was loving against us as well um they went as far as they could with the players association's cooperation that's the bottom line but everybody truly believes that Kauai Leonard should have been punished uh in some

39:12other way whether that was suspension which there's no statute in the CBA for him to be suspended for this specifically but but they could they could have tried um avoiding the contract certainly is in the statute they could have done that but that's a pretty extreme response um but that he that he only got you know that he gets off with a $700,000 fine would he made you know seemingly you know 50 60 70 million or something extra and outside of the cap it seems kind of preposterous yeah it's not even a slap on the wrist I don't even know what what is less uh severe than a slap on the wrist like I don't know what the actual equivalent would be to something that is just not even as extreme but yeah there's nothing there so it's it's less than 1% of his total career earnings that we are aware of at least in terms of his NBA salary so yes he he gets away pretty much scot free and obviously benefits him he can you can complete this move to the raptors and then and try and you know finish his career in Toronto um we've talked about perception when it comes to

40:14the owners we've talked about perception when it comes to Kauai and the punishment that was levy I do want to live in an alternate universe for a second where let's just say the punishment the perception of the punishment would have been underwhelming something like a fine but the draft picks weren't necessarily stripped there weren't as many suspensions involved how much does the track record of what Adam silver has done as commissioner and this sort of reputation he's built where it is a player empowerment driven league how do you think if there was any sort of belief that the clippers got off easy would have landed with everybody that has a stake and is involved then is invested in in the NBA in some capacity be it as a fan an actual stakeholder an owner how would have that been sort of received by by people around the league well no they had to do this um this was probably the most important Adam silver decision

41:17yes since maybe the first one he made which was about Donald Sterling and that one got him a lot of credibility and a lot of praise rightfully but also there was almost no choice in that one um they they they they could they could not they could not afford to have Donald Sterling still in the league so you know that was a pretty important decision shutting down the league during COVID he's given a lot of credit for but again there really was no choice this one was one where you know it could have gone either way and Adam silver could have decided it's just not enough uh you know they think the evidence is is really suggestive but it's not definitive or maybe we don't want to go after bomber who saves the the clippers franchise and also you know help the league a lot by buying the franchise and setting a new bar for franchise values by spending two billion which was unheard of at the time like there's so many ways in which this could have gone that would have inspired or just stoked all of the worst cynicism about the league about the way it operates about how the rich and powerful can can get away with whatever they want to it was super important

42:21for Adam silver's credibility for his reputation but just for the league's credibility to say no we're holding the line these are our rules these this is one of our most fundamental rules that we've established people can argue what they want about the efficacy or fairness of salary caps yeah but the salary cap in the NBA is existence in the early 80s these are the rules this is what everybody who buys into the league as an owner buys into if you if they don't mean anything with them what do you have um and not for nothing as somebody said to me a year ago when we first started chasing this story um your franchise values are are potentially tanked if everybody thinks that it's all you know a joke that there are no rules it could it could it could affect the bottom line too so they needed this they this was important for the credibility yeah the salary cap is in place to yeah keep the owners making money so they they can't spend willy nilly and go kugu bananas on player salaries all right last one Howard uh we're going to get to see kawaii play some basketball

43:22soon right like we're we're going to do the the mark McGuire Simpson's things it's like the horrible horrible truth or some dingers the dingers are about to take place how how how how much of this sticks to kawaii once the the ball is is is tossed up for the opening tip off like how is his legacy impacted by this obviously road fans maybe you're going to have their fun with some signs or something like how much of this sticks to kawaii i mean it definitely does but look way this is a we're a short memory society and ultimately yeah we want to say you said we want to see the thingers um i i think you know when the book is finally written or closed on kawaii's career you know maybe it's a year from now two years three years whatever it is like he's he's he's getting close to the end um i think the top line will always be two-time finals MVP who knows maybe there's another one of those coming i you know um two-time finals MVP multiple-time all-star one of the best two-way players

44:23we've seen that's the top line second line is barely played for the back half of his career always injured and was part of a clipper team that that completely underwhelmed with him as its centerpiece and then somewhere as a corollary that one is and then and and caused like the the biggest like you know uh you know discipline for an NBA team in history like i don't think it'll be the top line it maybe it will be i mean i would like to think that in general we usually go with the achievements first like i think probably like maguire can say go in that whole that whole era of baseball do we think of it first for the steroids probably yeah for sure um but it's a but it's a little different because that went straight to the achievements on on the on the field right what what kawaii is guilty of no matter what the NBA's punishment was what he's guilty of and what it costs the clippers and by the way like it's crippling the clippers like kawaii

45:24they get the clippers actions like they're responsible but kawaii is responsible for inducing it i keep saying like the people saying like well you know they didn't have to do it like listen no if i offer you a bribe and you take the bribe we are both guilty of bribery so if you demand a bunch of salary that you're not supposed to get from other sources that you're not supposed to have access to and they do it yeah they're the ones guilty of the actual circumvention but your you and your camp induce this so i do think that will stick to him on some level but we remember players for what they did on the court first and it's not like steroids because the off court stuff the extra money has nothing to do with why he was one of the greatest two-way players of his era yeah i also don't have a moral problem with it either because yeah the players should be earning more of the pie and yes he's worth more to the clippers if they had won uh then his player contract but yes those are the rules i get it but anyways uh yeah it is a a little different circumstance uh comparing it to steroids uh how are very much appreciate the time thanks for this you got it guys thank you thanks our our back senior writer at the ringer

46:28wanted to get into that a little bit more we're out of time but like yes they i don't yeah i get it yes for bribe you get a bribe you're also guilty of asking for the bribe even though it's the the other party that is committing the crime i guess it's actioning your ill-gotten gains but i just viewed salary caps across all of north american sports is so counter to a free market and capitalist society which we live in maybe you don't like that okay then we have different the philosophies but life right but the the players who are the product who provide the the entire value everything should be getting more of the pie and it shouldn't be the billionaires who sit back and don't spend who make all of the money correct i can't disagree with that anyway right for form and i i i also fully agree with the sentiment you raised earlier reinforce now the idea that the i don't have no issue with the player or his camp sitting there and saying hand up yeah we want more money that's great you know where things get kind of blurred a little bit is the idea

47:32i have much great i have a greater issue with quile energy is claiming that he that i didn't know anything i guess that's that to me is just the one thing where i'm like oh hey fess up to it yeah we asked but do we do anything wrong not really i honestly i don't have a problem with the quie i don't have a problem with uncle dan is either it's like it's on it's on you if you act we asked to his request and and i guess didn't cover it up well enough anyways clipers are screwed for the next decade uh deniela fun week yeah it's been all right two's day we're back all right yeah we'll be back on two's day with another edition of the fan morning show bad honest deniela french usk sports net five nine of the fan good morning