Throwback Thursday: Dr. Tom Horn - Dominionism (Part 1)

Those earth creatures always show you off their mouths

Gonna step up to the microphone

Stay loud and clear

A better day is coming soon

To get us out of here

Welcome to PID Radio

I'm Derek Gilbert

And I'm Sharon Gilbert

And welcome to the bunker one day away from the hides of March

Otherwise known as Mom's Birthday

Right

That's what we think of around here

Not nearly as ominous as the hides of March

It's at two birthday?

That's right

That's a good one

And of course on Friday one of my favorite holidays, St. Penny's Day

Yeah, you know, somehow, somehow

Having read a little bit of the life of St. Patrick

And a little bit of that era of history in which he lived

Post-Roman Britain

I somehow think he would not have approved of the way most of us Americans choose to celebrate the day named after him

I think Greenbeer and Big Balloons, that's just probably not what he had in mind

No, I don't think so

It will actually over in Ireland

It's becoming a little more commercial

But traditionally, it's been a very religious holiday

The group that I sang with for many years here in St. Louis, the Ambassador's Harmony, Barbershop Chorus

Traveled to Ireland a few years back

And participated in some of the St. Patrick's Day festivities there

And were surprised to find out that it's not as big a deal in Ireland

As it is here in the United States

And they were told by the Irish hosts

Yeah, we were starting to get into the swing of it

You know, it's not exactly the way St. Louis said it

But basically, they only do it for the American tourists

Well, maybe next year, March 17th of 2007

We can celebrate in Ireland with Patti Heron

There we go, you know, some of that black beer

And listening to him sing in the pub

There you go

He's threatened us with that

Well, we may take him up on it

And we will be hearing from Patti this week, by the way

We'll tell you a little bit more about that in a little bit

And so we get down to business here

Just after seven o'clock bunker standard time

Of course, that's O100 Greenish Mean

And we've got part one of our interview with Tom Horn

Of Rader's News Update coming up in just a little bit

To talk about Dominionism

What is Dominionism?

Why is it bad?

That's a good question

You know, Tom Horn is guessing on the Q-files this week

And he's doing a great job

He really is

He had a fascinating interview tonight Tuesday evening

He interviewed Jim Wilhelmson of Roswell, New Mexico

He runs a shop there called Heckos of Enic

Little X-files reference there for you

And he's written a book called Beyond Science Fiction

Which I think is what most people think of when they look at how we view the UFO phenomenon

And we're going to advertise into reality as we see it

Reality as we think it's laid out in the Bible

So we'll be on tomorrow night

And we're going to talk a little bit about ancient Egypt

Ancient Babylon, ancient Sumeria, ancient Israel

A lot of ancient stuff

And how it relates and impacts us today and the future

So that's where we're going to spend the rest of our lives

You know, we didn't get to hear all of tonight's Q-files with Tom Horn

So I'm going to have to listen to it on the archives tomorrow

If you miss any of those shows, you can join the archives

It's a nominal fee of $6.95 a month

We've been paying that fee for a couple of years now

Because it is so worth it

Sometimes when we have a job to do here in the bunker

We will just crank that up

And listen to show after show after show

While we're painting walls or cleaning or whatever

Yes, Steve Coil has written some fascinating books on the giants of Genesis 6

And how it relates to today and prophecy

And he's done just an amazing amount of research

I mean, if you think that the Nephilim that is just a fable

That the giants of Genesis 6 or a tall tale told by the Hebrews to scare their kids

You just need to look at some of the pictures on Steve's site

Of people today, alive today, who are 8, 9, 10 feet tall

So the concept of David meeting a guy who was 12, 13 feet tall is not that out of the question

You see bones of skeletons that must have been in the range of 13 to 15 feet tall

It's not that out of the question

So Steve's got that in his website

It's not something he talks about every night

But it is part of his worldview

And that's why we have been listening to his show for a couple of years now

Several years

And so we're honored to be on the program tomorrow night

Even if we have to talk with Tom Horn instead of Steve

You know the reason Tom, if you're listening, and he does tell us he listens to you

Tom, we didn't listen to all of your show tonight live because

Derek was on the phone during part of your interview

With someone we're going to be talking to this weekend for next week's pit catch

Oh yeah, wait till you hear next week

We are going to interview a paranormal investigation team

That is a real hot entertainment form right now on television

Ghost Hunters

What's the name of the show?

It's Ghost Hunters

I know you just said it and I just want to

I was thinking taps, no

But taps is of course what they call their company

It is about these guys who are plumbers by day

And Ghost Hunters by night

And it is a fascinating show

They come in a skeptics and oftentimes they leave unconvinced

But there's anything paranormal going on

Well the people we're interviewing this weekend work with these guys

Right, it's the New England anomalies research and investigations

They call themselves near which is two brothers Keith Johnson and Carl Johnson

And then a team that works with them

What's different in fact Keith and Carl are the guys that the taps people bring in when they've got a house

That needs to be cleared of the entities that are inhabiting it

They are the demonologists on call for taps

And they do their own investigations

So we just confirm tonight in interview for Sunday we'll have that for you next week

And the good thing about these fellows is that when they go into battle, when they go into an investigation

They go in with the full armor of God

They do, they don't go in with nuclear reactors on their backs

No, it goes to buzzer

They go in with even more power, which is really cool

Absolutely

So yeah, they go in with the same type of electronic gear as the taps crew does

To try to gather evidence and prove that the paranormal exists

But they know what they're dealing with

Well, before we got on this subject of taps, we were talking about some ancient things

Right

And we're going to go to a story a little segue there on today's Watcher Magazine.com

Archaeologists find ancient Israel tunnels that they'd back 2,000 years

Yeah, this is from a village in northern Israel

They found tunnels that date back to the Jewish war, the revolt against Rome that took place between the years of 66 and 70

And of course that's when the Roman general Titus came in

And leveled most of Judea, but it's when Jerusalem fell

Which of course was prophesied by Jesus in the Olivet discourse

Right, when he said that the temple would fall and not one stone would be left upon another

Which of course the when the gold in the temple furnishings melted

It ran in between the cracks of the stones of the Roman soldiers

Or at least that's what the soldiers were told and they will write that

No, whether or not it was true or not, but that's what yeah

Yeah, so the stones were pried apart

But what was interesting is that of course Jesus prophesied

And like many prophecies in Scripture, they have multiple fulfillments

And he said that as a warning, that when people saw the abomination that causes desolation

Which of course was a reference back to Daniel's prophecy

Which was fulfilled when Antiochus epiphanies, about 150 BC, set up an altar to Zeus inside the temple

Yes, sacrifice to pagan

Sacrifice to pagan there, which of course is on you know

That's so unclean

Yeah

And rude

Well, the Christians living in Jerusalem at the time of the Roman attack in 70

Interpreted Jesus' prophecy as meaning it's time to get out of Jerusalem

And so they lit out for the hills before the legions had that completely encircled

And so the small Christian community in Jerusalem actually was able to survive the destruction of Jerusalem

Where many of the residents were slaughtered when the Roman legions finally broke through the walls

You know, I'm wondering right now and you would know this better than I because you know your history better than I

When it comes to 1st century

Paul wrote his letter to the Thessalonians who were asking, did we miss the rapture?

Was it about this time or shortly after this?

Because you know if this event happened and you believe that this is something that was going to happen in the middle of the tribulation week

You would think you may have missed something

No, that was about 20 years earlier. Paul died. Paul was martyred a couple of years before the legions took Jerusalem

Oh that's right

James the brother of Jesus was also martyred in the year 62

Which conveniently took place in an interim period. You know Felix who was the governor of

Right. I do remember that. He sent to Felix and Felix was almost persuaded

Right and then not quite. Well Felix died

And one of the saddest sentences in all of the Bible

Yeah

Almost though it does persuade us to make it

Yeah, yeah

But in the year 62 Felix finally passed away and the Jews, although they were in charge of religion there

They were not allowed to pass judgment and execute prisoners

Which is why they had to go to Pontius Pilate to get Jesus crucified

Well in the interim period while a new governor was being sent from Rome

The high priest of Jerusalem then took Jesus' brother or half brother James

Right

And just had him executed while he was kind of in between governors

While they were in between governors in Judea

So they managed to get that through

But again it was just a couple of years later that Jerusalem was destroyed

See I knew you would know that because you taught a lot of this stuff

And you know, yeah

I so respect you

You got you got to know folks that my husband did not grow up studying this stuff

I did

I mean from the time I was probably eight, nine years old

I was you know in a church setting where we were studying prophecy and studying

The books of the Bible from very basic all the way up to really advanced stuff

And you were lucky if you got Noah and Abraham and things like that

Yeah Paul and Silas singing in the Jails at all

You know you have just gotten in there and you dig and dig and dig and you really really have become quite a scholar

Well that's why I knew when I asked that question that you would have the answer

Well thank you sweetheart but it was part of trying to figure out what it was I believed

And for some people like you you just had an instinctive knowledge

I was probably two, three, my earliest memory

I came in it from a very skeptical perspective you know I was indoctrinated I suppose to with the naturalistic world view that science can explain everything

And we're here because we evolved from lower life forms we had a real, we had a very heated discussion early in our marriage

Folks about how Christians could believe in evolution and accept that mankind evolved from microbes

You know rock plus water plus billions of years equals you was the basic formula

And it took evidence like the martyrdom of James because as I said yesterday's program I love my little sister

But it would take an awful lot to convince me to the point that I would die before deny that she was God in the flesh

And as the apostle John recorded in his gospel James and the other brothers of Jesus including Jude who was also martyred did not believe in him during his ministry

But something changed their minds that was very persuasive to me because again the martyrdom of James is not recorded in the Bible

It's recorded by Josephus the Jewish historian who was a Pharisee and had nothing to gain by promoting Christianity

That's a good point

Anyway we've kind of gotten the feel but it is an interesting, interesting article and it showed that the people of Israel at that time were preparing for a long battle with Rome

Oh yeah because these tunnels were used as hideaways

Yeah

It's really really interesting glimpse into the past

Speaking of things like that you know little map like pictures

Google now has Google interactive Mars

Yeah you know where I went first when I looked

Where?

Sidonia

Did they have it?

They had it marked yeah

Shock

You put in Sidonia it takes you right there and of course just like when you type in like the name of a city

And they've got all these little markers for points of interest

Yeah

You've got markers there to face on Mars

Then another one that says alleged face on Mars

So it's worth a look and there is a link to it at Watch Your Magazine

Well of course if you just do Mars at google.com you'll probably turn it up anyway

Oh probably because they've got an interactive moon map system

Very cool

Google Earth as well

Yeah very cool

I thought that was just the coolest thing

Of course Google is still sort of wrestling with the government

Yeah yeah

The government is ordering Google to turn over information in connection to an investigation into child pornography

Which sounds like a good idea doesn't it?

It does it does but you know the worry there is that you run a file of somebody in the government

And they accuse you of child pornography in order to access personal information and data

And where you draw the line

We'd like to see all of your files regarding people who have looked at PID radio

Yeah

That's pretty far stretch

You know I'm going to go way left to feel

Okay

Just way left to feel something that's not even on Watch Your Magazine

Oh no

If you can believe that can you believe it?

Yes

I read a review of a movie V for Vendetta

Which is out in the theaters now

And I guess that movie is really getting a lot of

Watercooler chat

And even talk in the press

Because it seems to be glorifying a terrorist

You know making him appear as a Zoro

Or better comparison is Phantom of the Opera

And of course the Phantom in the Phantom of the Opera is a very sympathetic character

He's doing horrible things

He's killing people

But his character is so sympathetic

This is a similar setup

It takes place in a futuristic alternative universe London

That has turned into essentially Nazi Germany

And John Hurt is the Hitler type of big brother

And this anti-hero wants to blow up a building in London

And I think it's Natalie Portman who's in it with him

I'd have to verify that

But I guess the big buzz is

Can you make a hero out of a terrorist who wants to blow up buildings in London?

Is that

Is that socially acceptable?

Well sure why not if you listen to some of the academics teaching in our college campuses today

The guys who led the American Revolution in the 1770s were terrorists

Well yeah that's true they are saying that

You got the cutest little smile in your face

That's my smirk

I don't agree with them

Cheshire care

Zest

But what I think is so interesting is that

And I think that this is intentional

This is based on a book by the same guy who wrote

And I wish I could think of his name right now

I apologize to you sir

He wrote the

Oh the Sean Connery

League of Extraordinary Gentlemen

Oh okay

And apparently he wasn't happy with how that film turned out

And he's not happy with how this film just turned out based on his work

The idea that you've got a government that has become so invasive in your private life

That it's like Nazi Germany at its worst

Everything you want to do is dictated by the government

And this man

Almost like a Zorro type

Because Zorro was very much like that as well

That supposedly in Zorro the Spanish government was very oppressive

And this government is equally oppressive in this you know imaginary London

And this guy and the reason I say Zorro is because in the previous at least I have not seen the movie

I've only read this review

But I have seen the previous he reminds me of Zorro he's got a Zorro type hat on and a mask

Which of course takes you to the Phantom of the Opera connection

I just found that really an intriguing idea

I'm looking at the real

Our own government became that dictatorial

Yeah

At what point do you become

Do you say okay this is not terrorism

This is patriotism

Well that's a good question

And one that Christians need to wrestle with because some have argued that the leaders of the American revolution

Should not have rebelled against the government on the basis of Scripture

Jesus said render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and unto God what is God's

Should the George Washington and the other heroes of the American revolution heroes from our perspective

Have led the revolution or were they violating Scripture or interpreting Scripture to support what they wanted to do

Well let me say this

When the Second Temple was being restored after the Babylonian captivity

They had a trail in one hand and a sword in the other

Because they were being invaded constantly

It was a Senacarib who was constantly sending troops over there to bug them

Somebody was constantly trying to keep the temple from being rebuilt

I would have to look on that

It might have been some of their neighbors like the Edamites

Yeah, but these guys were fighting the whole time

So I think there are times when it is appropriate

And this is something new for me because you know that I'm really not for violence very much at all

Yeah, but I think when you start targeting buildings with innocent people in it

I think clearly that's wrong

Yeah

But at what point do you make the judgment that okay this is right and this is a righteous rebellion in the eyes of God

Yeah, that's a good question

Well, you know the guy who wrote the review or at least the article

He asked a good question he said

If taking down a building is terrorism

Then if you knew that a summer bin Laden was in a building alone

Is taking down that building terrorism?

Well, that's one to wrestle with

I know there's some real great areas here

But anyway, I thought I'd bring it up because a little food for thought

Well, that movie opens this weekend

And so we'll clearly take a take a look at it

I was looking at the official trailer or the website with the trailer

While we were talking here and it does look intriguing

It's a very very interesting looking movie

Speaking of interesting movies, we did watch the movie that we mentioned last week

Over the weekend, the island

Oh, it's so good

Yes, starring you and McGregor

And I've not seen a movie with you and McGregor yet that's bad

He is so watching

Big fish and well, I don't know, the Star Wars movies

And it's not his fault

Liam Neeson is good too

But Scarlett Johansson was good

And the part of the movie

The guy from Star Trek Voyager was in this

We don't want to tell you too much but Derek cried too

And I was crying again, it's such a good movie

It really is, in fact Nicole watched it with us

And she brought a friend over from school and he watched it

We were all crying

Well actually, I think that they knew where it was going

Because somebody spoiled the end for them

And we won't do that for you

Well worth watching and it's very thought provoking

And it's amazing that they could do a thought provoking movie

With some kick-and-action scenes

And do it without getting into a lot of bad language

And no overt sexual overtone

It's amazing

It's really extremely well done

Steve Buscemi, one of our favorite actors is also in it

A great character actor

All the way around, an excellent movie

We highly recommend it but we can't tell you more because we're ruin it

Speaking of movies, one other

This is one we're going to have to watch

So that we can throw bricks at the TV while we're watching the DVD

What the bleep do we know?

We talked about that before a long time ago

It was put out about two years ago, stars

Marley Matlin as a photographer who's got a dim view of life

Until she learns to love herself

And essentially the message of the movie is

That you can change reality with your mind

And they do this by showing photographs

Taken by a doctor of alternative medicine in Japan

Who tries to demonstrate with his photos

That if you think real hard

At water wireless freezing in a glass

You can change the shape of the crystals

If you think happy thoughts you get pretty crystals

If you think bad thoughts you get ugly

Mishapen crystals

And therefore...

Funny thoughts you get Billy Crystal

Yeah, there you go

You caught on very quickly

And since humans are mostly water

So the theory goes

If you think happy thoughts about yourself

You'll be healthy and happy

And healthy and wise and all of that

And the movie has been re-released now

Or a follow-up

It's an expanded version basically

What the bleep down the rabbit hole is the new version

Which has just been released

And the movie has just finished up a two month run in New York

It's going to be shown in May at the quest for global healing conference

Walter Cronkite is going to attend

Desmond Tutu is going to attend

This is becoming a big deal

And I bring it up because we need to be aware of this

Because this kind of new age glop

Is catching on with a lot of people

And what it's trying to do is meld physics

And religion

And that's what we were talking about yesterday

With Gorbachev and the Gorbachev Foundation

And his connections to the Esselin group

And S Werner Erhardt

And S out there in California

All of those thinkers

And they're trying to show that science and thinking

And you're all connected

It's the great oneness

And we're all...

And ye shall be as gods

Is what it boils down to

Now pass the plate

It's what it...

It all comes back to that same lie from the serpent back in the garden

Oh my goodness

You know what?

We could blather on and on and on and on

You know what the other day

Directed a fabulous interview with Mr. Tom Horn

And we were just talking about him earlier

And sadly, I was asleep

Well...

I will be...

She not appearing in this interview

That's right

But we know what a delay any longer

Here's a part line of Derek's interview with Tom Horn

We're pleased to welcome back to our guest line Tom Horn

The publisher of Raider's News Update

And co-author with his wife, Nita, of the Aramon Gate

Tom, welcome back to PID Radio

Hey, Derek, thanks for inviting me back on your show

Sorry that Sharon's not here

She's the other half of my brain

So you'll have to work with me

I understand completely

You raised the topic during an interview with Steve Quail

On the Q-Files radio broadcast

A couple of weeks back

It attracted attention from regulators on our forum

And I know that you probably got a lot of feedback from this as well

And that was the subject of dominionism

Within the body of Christ

Christian dominionism

And how it's going to affect the perception of the end times

The coming disclosure of that

Boy, that was really something that really got my attention

When we listened to it that night also

And so we're really glad that you're here to kind of

Go through the topic a little bit more

First of all, just to lay the groundwork, what is dominionism?

You know, just in the most basic definition

Dominionism is the idea that we as Christians can through the legal system

And legislation, political maneuvering

We can reclaim the dominion that we lost in the Garden of Eden

We can take control of the political systems of the earth

We can therefore implant morality of God

In the hearts and minds of men through legal enforcement

And we can become the custodians of the earth

A God wants to be in the book of Genesis

And that we can perfect the earth

And therefore present it to Christ as having been reclaimed

And perfected and therefore Christ can return

I mean that's in a nutshell when you're dominionism as we'll discover tonight

And we talk more about the deeper parts of this subject

It is significantly more complex than that

But in a nutshell, the whole idea is to take control

To take it back from the evil people who run our courts

And legislative systems and congressional halls

And to perfect it so that Christ can return

Now that's really a hot topic right now

Because as you know, a lot of prominent Christian pastors are getting involved in the political process

Rod and Parsley in particular in Ohio

And well, all over the country Christians are being encouraged to get back involved in the political process

To vote the right way, to encourage their representatives to push for the right types of judicial candidates

To the Supreme Court level and all through the court system

What's wrong with that idea?

What's wrong with the idea of trying to say maybe not impose is the right word

But to vote the way we think Jesus would want us to vote

Well, there's nothing wrong with voting the way we think Jesus would want us to vote

And I said on the program that kind of started this last week when I was almost deep

Well, and by the way, we weren't even talking about dominionism

We were talking about dual covenant theology because of the new story on the Jerusalem post

Where they said they were quoting Hegi and Rabbi Shainin

And that whole story about Jerry Falwell

Converting to dual covenant theology which both of them by nightfall

You know, we're getting any microphone they could to say not true, we didn't say it

And you know, it's like anything else today's news is tomorrow's old news

The story came and went, but if it served a purpose it at least raised some significant issues I think

For the church to consider doctrine that are firmly entrenched in the church now in particular dominionism

Which in my mind is heretical and of course tonight I want to explain why

But I also said on that program that by bringing up the issue of dominionism I was not saying

That there's anything wrong with a Christian voting for what they believe to be morally right

Or voting against things that they believe to be against biblical ethics

And furthermore there's nothing wrong with the Christians being a political activist

If that's I would suppose some people may be given a particular calling, a gift to be able to be involved in the political sphere

But that's completely different than selling the church on the idea that to be good stewards of our time on earth

That we're actually holding up the return of Christ by not seizing control of earthly power

In order to implement the morals and values to impose them if you will

Not on people to make them live by whatever standards we deem are those that are inclined with the will of God

And I have to tell you that all of this began for me a long time ago in the 80s

I hadn't even really thought that much about it lately because I started out preaching about and then yelling about

And then screaming about the whole thing that I thought was a problem with dominionism back in the 80s

And it seemed to just consistently fall on deaf ears and wasn't doing anything more than making people mad at me

And so I finally just let it go but it was my belief that dominionism would become a dominant, evangelical, pericy

That in my mind would undoubtedly lead untold numbers of believers into a false gospel

And frankly provide the doormat for the appearing of the anti-Christ

Well I have to tell you I believe that more now than I've ever believed it before

Back then the leaders of the church, the bobble heads and the entertainment figures and the media elite

Actually they started out talking about, and you might remember this, they started out talking about what was called Kingdom Age Theology

Do you remember that?

vaguely, vaguely, that was in my nominal Christian phase when I was working in top 40 radio playing music that I prefer my daughter not listen to now

Sharon would remember that though, yes

Yeah well Kingdom Age Theology was just kind of the early precursor to the broader, what became the reconstructionist movement

And then now of course what's more commonly thought of as dominionist theology

And most of the people that I hung around with back then in the early days when we were talking about Kingdom Age Theology weren't paying that much attention to it

It just seemed to be part of the name and claimant crowd and the people that I hung out with

You know they just would kind of smile, you know what I mean? And look the other way

But then, and I guess Derek, because of human nature, a large number of believers just started buying into those ideas

And those ideologically driven, politically driven, Paul Patyrs, man I mean we started seeing mainstream churches mobilizing adherence to become more and more politically involved

And sadly along the way, and this was what I guess hurt me as they became more and more politically involved, they became less and less interested in quiet devotion

And their spiritual habits and spiritual life and the whole thing in the church started turning, I mean it started becoming about power and domination, political authority, economic power, affluence

You know what I'm saying? Whatever it might take to accomplish the reconstructionist vision of the dominionist who said you know we need to be about reclaiming what we lost in the Garden of Eden

And for whatever reason it didn't them and it doesn't now appear that those people understood that when they're talking about the dominion we had in the Garden of Eden

It wasn't a legal taskmasker, but it was more of a caring overseer, I mean Adam and Eve were given a privilege, an opportunity, they weren't given a Billy Club by God, at least that's certainly not the way that I read

The kind of authority that they were given in the Garden of Eden would have been reflective of the kind of authority that Jesus Christ had when he took upon himself a pastoral kind of authority where he could care for

The things that had been created by God, but in any case nobody seemed to care about that in the 80s, I shouldn't say nobody, but what caught on was the dominionist dogma

And when Ronald Reagan won the 1980 presidential election by a landslide and by the way I voted for Reagan and I loved him and I loved the great deal of his policy and I wish we had a great deal of his policy right now about what we had

But when he did because of his willingness to invoke the name of God and things like that that the church had not seen in any president in modern time before him

When that happened it happened on the heels of some of the more prominent today dominionists who were just coming to their own, I mean they were just coming to power

And by then the rising stars included Pat Robertson and Ralph Reed and Jerry Falwell and that's how we got on this last week because of Jerry Falwell's name being used

But Jerry Falwell formed the moral majority with those people that were involved with him and those guys went right out and they started saying that the Reagan victory was their victory

And they went to their donors and I mean there was hundreds of thousands of dollars spent on literature that went out into the mail

And they were literally taking Reagan a one piece of Reagan, one side of Reagan and sending out information to all the little dominionists out there that were supporting them and saying that man you know look God has given us the victory and now we have to see the opportunity to take over the world starting with the United States

The courts and legislation in Congress and because God has he has saw the our labor and he has given us this victory and now everybody needs to get on board because obviously this is the will of God

And I remember because I was pastoring receiving all of that material and frankly at that time I was more with those early dominionists than I was against them because I hadn't yet come to understand what now I believe to be some of the fallacy of the whole idea

And I mean Christians bought it by the tens of millions because the preachers wrapped it in the right use of scripture and it made it sound so good and it made it sound so right

But I'll tell you as a senior pastor of one of the larger churches on the west coast I watch what happened I mean over time

You know as a guy who was voted in as a press putter and working with a lot of other pastors who were coming to me for leadership I watched how their Wednesday night prayer meetings gave way to fundraisers for local political lobbyists who would come into the churches and we're promising that together we're going to retake America for Christ

And man that became the theme you know Sunday morning revivalists they they they weren't invited anymore suddenly all of everything that was old school was being displaced by politicians who were being invited to come in on Sunday morning and speak to the congregation about what the believers could do to participate in the legislative process now that we understand that the second coming of Christ is being held up

is the patient you know of us dumb believers who somehow had missed in the New Testament example that we were supposed to be about establishing God's kingdom here on earth

and you know on a bird

Yeah I thought Jesus said something about the kingdom being inside of us and not something that we voted into a particular office

Yeah inside of us but we need to get it out and get it in offices

I think the dominion is theory okay I missed that part of yeah part of the gospel there

It almost seems to me and see what you think of this analogy it almost strikes me as being like the activity of the behavior of the Christians in the time of Constantine

who suddenly have access to the halls of power and just went nuts with it

Is that a valid comparison you think?

Absolutely and yeah I mean you know there's not much new in history in history tends to repeat itself

And right now if the Neal cons in the White House are the political version of foreign policy which could be the precursor to an anti-Christ global police state system

then dominionism is the religious side of it

It's the religious system on which the false prophet can write in to support the anti-Christian system

but we can talk about that a little bit later but yeah

Yeah you're right there's a lot of there there

It really is interesting though that this process is facilitated by believers who want to see

what they believe are Christian morals being enforced in the government system that we have here

while ignoring things and they facilitate this by ignoring things such as say Nancy Reagan consulting an astrologer

when she made Ronald's can under every day

Yeah well that's right but look there was a you know there was a lot of pressure

a lot of pressure to join the movement early on by all of us pastors who were involved

and you know people there's a lot of fallacies in human nature and one of them is that we want to be associated with success

and we want to be accepted by the people who we believe to be successful

and when all of a sudden the big mouthpieces were heralding you know what was going on with the

and I think they you know to some extent they just used the election of Ronald Reagan for their own benefit

he may have benefited too from the Christian vote I'm sure he did but Reagan continued to be popular with everybody including atheists as far as I know

but but in any case you know this was a that was I think that was the turning point and that's why I referred to it is because

the kingdom age teaching was being taught but it wasn't until Reagan came in that man all of a sudden and almost overnight things

changed and people latched on to this presidential election and the willingness of Ronald Reagan to refer to God and Christ and quote the Bible

and all those things and and so now all of a sudden we were entering into a new age a new dispensation a new revelation from God

to his church concerning his will for his people and at first you know because I was pastoring and I've also always had this side interest in politics

you know I joined those voices for a short while I put I was the keynote speaker at some of their local political rallies

but like I said on the queue files the other night the the very last Trinity broadcasts and crusade that we did in my church family worship center Carlton person was there Dwight Thompson was there

we raised we raised tens of thousands of dollars for Dwight Thompson and I remember when I was driving Dwight back to the airport and him telling me how he was going to use that money to win several cities for God

you know I never did hear any more after he flew out of town but maybe did I don't know but but you know Nancy Harmon was there she filmed her love special for Trinity Broadcasting that week

but shortly after that and I mean literally just within maybe a month you know just something inside me it didn't feel right it didn't sound right maybe it went back to my upbringing

you know my grandmother being a Methodist and I you know coming up from maybe more and the Methodist back then by the way

weren't anything like the art today either right yeah but you know I said Methodist I mean midnight and just these older more pastoral type congregations

where you didn't really where you're religion on your sleeve and your Christianity wasn't measured by how high you jumped or how far you rolled or whether you laughed in the spirit or you did any of them other things

it really it really had more to do with your integrity I know my granddad was Abe Lincoln honest and you never had to have a contract with him

if he told you was going to do something he would do it to his own hurt he would never ever go against his word you know what I'm saying

right these were these were old ethics that I grew up under and and suddenly something about the superficiality of a lot of the entertainment side of what I was in

and and what some of the stuff behind the scenes that I was witnessing too I mean a lot of it just really started feeling wrong to me

and I begin questioning and questioning a lot of that and so then here I here I was you know I I I I'm pastoring family worship center

and I come along and I start becoming the cog in the wheel you know by a questioning first privately behind closed doors

I you know as I'm talking to you right now I remember some of those meetings where I'm sitting behind closed doors

and there's 10 or 15 people and these are power brokers in Christianity and I'm saying to them really I mean really is this really where we want to go

because I have some I have some problems with some of this stuff and I think I think we're getting off track I think we're abandoning Christ I think we're we're we're attaching ourselves to apostasy

I think we're opening the door for Christians to have a have a justification for abandoning the disciplines of true New Testament Christianity

and selling out deeply by feeling that they somehow can be justified by pulling a voter voting lever the right way

I just have a feeling that the kingdom of God is not made of the kind of material that we're selling here

and I'll tell you it didn't make me very popular I was a keynote speaker at the National Religious Broadcasters Convention

and it was the last time the last time because I got up and I dared to actually mention a book written by Pat Robertson

and I dared to actually say I fear this is opening the door for the development of a system that's going to lead to the implementation of the anti Christ

well it could have been dropped a whole lot of shouting going on that night and yeah but but I truly believed it

and of course you know that night I was well prepared and I mean I was articulate I didn't sound like the okay I am right now

I was you know I was I was convincing at least in my own mind you know

but then you have to understand you know Derek I I was and I still am friends with some of those people

Dr. James Kennedy who has been a leader in DC among the politically enthused evangelicals

now for some time in fact some you know some writers say that he's probably behind the scenes he's probably the most powerful man in Christianity today

and but he wrote a long personal letter to me just a few years ago you know on official church letterhead by the way from his church

and thanking me for accurately reflecting his viewpoints when I would speak in public and he wrote an endorsement for my second book

The Gods Who Walk Among Us I never asked him to do that I never even talked to him about it and it just kind of came from out of the blue

and but you know Kennedy of course was considered by most reporters to be the architect of just the Sunday last year

and and the stated purpose you know of all of that and and everybody who's part of it focus on the family and everybody else is to is to educate people of faith

as to how the judiciary impacts society and how activists judges for the most part are in their opinion anti-Christian

and therefore we need to make sure that we get these people out of course or when they retire we replace them with the right people

so that the judiciary as you started this broadcast saying can you know can either implement or enforce or support law and rules that go to the ethical you know

you know biblical ethics or at least biblical ethics as they are defined by the many of us which many times you and I would probably agree with and maybe sometimes we would

right well Tom I think that's that's a good point that we want to and want to take a break here we want to continue this this idea and

and and also get a little bit more of your thoughts on why you call this and evangelical heresy and we'll do that when we continue

our interview with Tom Horn tomorrow on PID radio well that takes us to the end of part one but don't despair we've got parts two and three

coming up tomorrow and on Thursday and you know before we we get too far and we end up closing the show out today Derek and I the last few

days have we have neglected to thank remnant radio yes they have been and they've been broadcasting our archive shows yes Paul Pilgrim at

remnant radio the remnant radio network was kind enough he picked up our program when we did the short lived program on

Republic broadcasting on Saturday evenings and I called him when we did made a decision to discontinue the Saturday night

program but he asked if it would be okay if he would take it could take our archives and start broadcasting them during

the afternoon so if you don't get enough of us on the podcast you can tune into the remnant radio network which is

remnant radio network com and remnant radio dot org remnant radio dot org thank you and there's a link on the right hand

column on the PID radio side yeah I put it there today excellent and you can listen every afternoon between five p.m. and seven p.m. central

time of course that's GMT minus six and again we've been remiss and not thanking Paul sooner so Paul Pilgrim the general manager

and cook and chief bottle washer there remnant radio network thank you very much for carrying the program and he's got a great line up there

he's got us on following colonel bow rights that is amazing to me because you know what he's he's a legend yeah he is and he also Paul Pilgrim

also has a visigoths from the grassy know on the remnant radio that's right so yeah we're in good company there so we're just

very honored to be part of the remnant radio network we are so thank you Paul and thank you for listening if you have comments

or questions our email address is always radio at peering into darkness dot com and you can join the forum

at peering into darkness dot com slash forum but also I wanted to thank some people we've got a few emails about our little Java

oh yeah just want to get in update she's doing fine in fact she I think she can claim Murphy's clock well she's trying

she's trying she jumped on Murphy the other day and Murphy kicked out he was on his back and he kicked out with his legs

and he literally threw Java about three feet across the floor he did it again today I was taking pictures of them as they were battling today

like I miss that road dog roughly she just went flying up into the air did all the summer salt came down just shook her head

and went right back at him well he feels good because he's got a pack again and he's got a job again

because his his job is to tell her when it's time to go outside come inside take a nap eat and that's what he did for the

the old gals when they were here and now he sees happy because he's got a job again

he did you know and she pays attention yeah she she's she does

but anyway we blabbed it out this is Sharon Gilbert and you are I'm Derek Gilbert thanks for listening to PID radio

hi everybody

gonna step up to the microphone say loud and clear a better day is coming soon

to get out of here

don't let the hard times get you there

all the days well just a few years

there's a new day coming

I knew a day coming down

there's a new day coming

oh