Eugene and Raymond Horsch

0:00Ever wonder what it's like inside the FBI's behavioral analysis unit? How profilers actually work through a case? I'm Julia Cowley. I'm a retired FBI profiler and I host the consult, real FBI profilers. My colleagues and I, all retired FBI profilers, break down investigations from a behavioral perspective. We look at both solved and unsolved cases, high profile and lesser known ones, and we rely on research and statistics to dispel common misconceptions about crime. We also talk with detectives, journalists and other experts who can help inform the work we do and give you a clearer picture of how investigations unfold. If you've ever wanted to be in the room with the BAU, this is as close as it gets. Join us on the consult, real FBI profilers. Criminology is a true crime podcast that may contain discussion about violent or disturbing

1:00topics. Hello everyone and welcome, episode 423 of the Criminology podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson. And this is Mike Morphur. Morph, what's going on, buddy? Not too much, what are you up to? Oh, got a lot of stuff going on. My new 2K basketball game just came out and so that's a big thing for me every year. I'm like the 53-year-old kid in me just, you know, it's like Christmas morning. Yeah, I know you love your basketball, your March madness and your video games too.

2:05So I guess you're in your end having right now. Yeah, my wife says, or she always asks me, do you think you'll stop playing video games at some point you are 53? And I was like, I don't know. I love them. I always have since I had an Atari way back in the day. I've never been a big gamer and everyone's why I played my son Madden and get my bug kicked and you know, like going about my day. Let's go ahead and give our Patreon shout outs. We had new support from Sue H and Aiden Hartnet. So that's amazing. We really appreciate it. Yeah, thank you so much, Sue and Aiden, that really helps us out and to everyone else that helps support the show. Thank you. And if you want to help support us, head over to patreon.com, slash criminology, to get started. I'm Morph. Let's get to it. And we have a case for everyone that is developing in real time. Facts continue to change all the time as new information is revealed. And there are a lot of rumors swirling and there's a community that's waiting for answers.

3:09This is a case that has it all. Sacks, drugs, fake IDs, multiple missing and presumed dead victims and even snuff those. The men at the center of all this chaos are a father and son named Raymond Horsh or RC as he's widely known and Eugene Horsh. Police are convinced that one or both of them are a killer. Unfortunately, Ray can't help investigators sort out the mess we're about to talk about because he died in 2025 leaving his son Eugene behind. The story in the news cycle started on June 19, 2026 when 44 year old Eugene Horsh was arrested by federal park rangers near Independence National Historical Park in Philadelphia. The charges were related to drugs, but the investigation into Horsh would reveal a lot more. Park rangers initially took notice of Horsh in June because he had parked his BMW in an area people aren't supposed to park it and he didn't have the proper credentials

4:12displayed which he was required to have. According to NBC Field Uffier, rangers saw him leaning into the backseat of his vehicle and when they got closer to the car they heard a woman's voice coming from the back. She told him you're going to hurt me. It seemed to the rangers like they were having an argument. Rangers became even more suspicious of the situation after laying eyes on the couple. They apparently both had visible signs of serious substance abuse like open sewers on their faces. Horsh was also holding a butane torch in a pair of tweezers, both of which are used to do illegal drugs. Rangers interrupted the couple and both were asked for identification and they cooperated. When rangers checked the woman's ID, they got an alarming alert. The ID she presented had the name Blair Tonselli. That was the name of a woman who had been missing since 2022 and when it became clear that the rangers were going to separate the couple, leading this woman to their patrol

5:12car, Eugene Horsh interrupted and told them they're not hers. She's a good girl. Please haven't to this point released the name of this woman who presented this ID with her photo on it, but using Blair Tonselli's name. A search of the BMW turned up a lot of suspicious items. First of all, under the driver's seat there were two guns that were loaded. Eugene Horsh was not allowed to have any firearms because he's a convicted felon and is legally barred from owning or possessing any guns. On top of that, the serial numbers on the guns had been destroyed and this is a major federal offense. Rangers continued to comb through the car and found additional unloaded firearms. The more the rangers looked, the more troubling things they found. They discovered crack cocaine, fentanyl or heroin, a glass pipe, multiple pairs of handcuffs, a cattle prod, a switch blade, and a fake DEA badge with Eugene Horsh's photo on it,

6:17as well as a fake FBI badge and identification cards with the name Eugene Frederick Steiner. Obviously this was a treasure trove of evidence that would result in a slew of charges and the couple was taken in custody and the Philadelphia police became involved. Okay, Morph. So we got a lot going on here, right? Very early in the story. I mean, this stopped. I think we have to break it all down because it's just so weird. And I say stop. They didn't actually stop the car, but they felt like something was wrong. They went to check on these people. I mean, right off the bat, the description of the two individuals jumped out at me. They opened sores on the faces, visible signs of serious substance abuse. I don't know. To me, open sores. Okay. Depending on how severe that was, I'm getting some mental images here that are not great.

7:22And then you have this woman in the car who seems to be in some type of distress and gives them an idea of a woman who comes back to have been missing for a few years. On top of that, all kinds of illegal things in this car. Right? We've got a couple of guns are loaded with the serial numbers destroyed. Some other guns that are unloaded. And this guy's not supposed to have any guns because he's a felon. And then you have a bunch of elicit drugs. And then this guy Eugene Horish has multiple fake IDs, badges, DEA, FBI, and a cattle prod. I mean, there's just so much going on that I don't even know what was going through these individuals' minds when they were pulling all of this stuff out of the car.

8:24Yeah. I think when you're law enforcement and you come upon a scene like this and you've got two people that seem like they're on drugs, you've got multiple guns. And then that combination of handcuff keys, a cattle prod, and a switchblade on top of everything else you just mentioned just doesn't paint a real good picture about what's going on and what the potential here is for something very sinister to happen. Well, and you said, right, there's a bunch of charges related to all this stuff. But you also have the dynamic of, you know, who is this woman? Because they realized she wasn't Blair Tanzelli. So who is she? And then Blair Tanzelli's missing. So what happened to her? There's just so much going on. Yeah, I think it's good that the Philadelphia police detectives became involved quickly because there's a lot of sort out here.

9:24And it didn't take long to confirm that Eugene Horch had a criminal record and he had been in prison multiple times. In 2004, he was arrested on charges of aggravated assault and aggravated assault by vehicle. And in 2013, he was arrested again this time for drug related charges. When he was arrested a few months ago, he was still on probation due to charges of possession of a controlled substance with intent to distribute about a week after his arrest. And Vescares obtained a search warrant for his home on West Choo Avenue in the only neighborhood of Philadelphia. And so the police had been boarded up ever since estimating that it had been that way for at least a year and a half. Police question neighbors who said that they rarely saw anyone come or go from the residents. Based on the treasure trove of evidence, Rangers had found a Eugene Horch's car.

10:26They expected to find even more trouble in things in his home. And it turns out that they were right. What investigators found there kept them in the home for more than two weeks. Police discovered a lot of ammo, more drugs, and also seized more than 50 electronic devices, including computers, hard drives, and USB drives. The real Blair Tanzilles debit cards, as well as multiple fake IDs with her name on them, were also found in the home. There was no sign of Blair. According to NBC Philadelphia, a 55 gallon drum in various chemicals and bottles were found inside the home. This could be related to some kind of production of narcotics. But there was also some kind of handwritten note about murder and Ted Bundy that mentioned trash that needs to go. So the 55 gallon drum in various chemicals also brought to the minds of investigators the disposal of bodies. And I'm telling you right now, whenever I think of a 55 gallon drum, or when I hear about it, when somebody's talking about it, the true crime person in me immediately goes to

11:32that. No people use 55 gallon drums for various things. Well, when you find a 55 gallon drum in this environment that we're talking about, it makes me think there's a possibility that there is something sinister going on with it. Yeah, right. It's in a vacuum just having a 55 gallon drum. Okay, it's not criminal. People could use it to store water. I mean, they could use it for a bunch of different things. Some people have them outside as as burn barrels. But then even that, the true crime person in me thinks, okay, what are they burning in there? Is there bodies? 55 gallon drums just scream out criminal activity, even though I know that's not really what they're always used for. There were reports that investigators found a significant amount of blood at the home. However, further testing found that whatever was found, it wasn't blood.

12:34It's possible that what was discovered was prop blood used for movies, which we'll talk more about later. Eugene's father Raymond Horses had lived in the home too until his death in May of 2025. He was 82 years old when he died. His official cause of death was due to complications from chronic obstructive pulmonary disease. Five burns were found inside the home. Investigators believed that there are cremated remains inside each urn, one of which has raised name on. Jerome Brown, Eugene Horses attorney, believes the chemicals belong to Raymond Horses. Like his son, Raymond had a criminal record. He was arrested in 2009 on drug charges after investigators found out that he was grown nearly 500 marijuana plants. This was far from his first run in with the law, and certainly not the first time he was caught with drugs. In 1974, when he was 31, the secret service seized over $1 million worth of counterfeit

13:38$10 bills from him. He was arrested in Dolos Town, Pennsylvania and was imprisoned for two years. When he was released, he moved to Philadelphia where he started making meth. In 1977, he was caught. He was arrested and released on bail. He fled the state instead of facing trial. His girlfriend, Byris Slaw, Anna Fracuniac, who went by her middle name, went with him. They ended up in Nevada where they were married in 1980. By this time, Horses was using someone else's name. He was going by Dr. Stanley Eugene Stakowski. The real Dr. Stakowski, a chemist, lived in California and obtained his doctor from Stanford University. The newlyweds fled the country shortly after their wedding. They ended up in New Zealand. Who's the stolen identity to get a job as chemist working with alternative fuel sources? We talked about the sun a little bit, being arrested, everything he had in the car, everything he had in the house.

14:39When you start to talk about his father, he had a lot of stuff going on too. Drug charges. You said more 500 marijuana plants. That seems like a lot to me. I don't know a lot about growing marijuana, but 500 plants seems like a lot. Then $1 million worth of counterfeit bills. He's only in prison for two years. I get it. This was the 70s. I thought they took that stuff very serious to secret service. Counterfeiting money, you would think you'd get more time than just a couple of years for that amount of counterfeit money. Maybe back then, those charges, a lot of charges back then weren't prosecuted as heavily or as sentenced as worn as lengthy as they are nowadays. Definitely seems like he was certainly on a criminal path.

15:40To me, it looks like the apple is not falling for from the tree here. We definitely say that. The other thing that I think the father and son hadn't common was stealing identities, using fake identities. They were into very similar things. Eugene Horch was born in 1981 when Ray was still growing by the stolen alias and the family were technically fugitives. Despite being on the run from the law in the United States, Ray kept traveling back and forth from New Zealand to the US, he would actually later finally describe this time in his life through his writings. According to the Philadelphia inquirer, he wrote, it was always exciting, always thinking, who am I going to be today? Use different alias's each time to avoid suspicion, but his luck ran out in 1984 when he was caught trying to get back into New Zealand with five fake passports in his possession.

16:44He was investigated and it was discovered that he wasn't a doctor at all. This launched a different investigation because now there was a real security issue with his company. Ray decided to take his chances back in the US. He broke into a home to obtain yet another passport, which he used to flee back to the US without his wife and son. He just left them there alone. He spent some time in California where he used the name Richard Harris, another alias. Investigators eventually found him in Orlando, Florida. He was extradited to Pennsylvania to stand trial on the original charges he had skipped bail on in 1977. Yeah, this has given me vibes of the movie Catch Me If You Can. Do you remember that one Leonardo DiCaprio? Yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking. I was going to say that. Yeah, I loved that movie. And I actually met the real guy. And he signed the book.

17:47I have it down here in my office in the studio. It has a good movie and a fascinating story, but this guy here seems a little bit darker and maybe a little bit more dangerous than that guy was. Yeah, I can't think of his name off top of my head for some reason. Yeah, he did stuff that was illegal, but it was definitely a little bit more white collar crime. I don't know. It's still illegal. I get it. But he did lead a fascinating life. I'll give him that. And this guy, you talk about him kind of reliving his time through his writings and it seems like he thought it was fascinating too. Very exciting. Who am I going to be today? He's got all of these different fake IDs, different identities, and he's just picking and choosing depending on the situation. Yeah, it seemed like he was pretty proud of himself in his writings.

18:49He was sort of reliving those memories. Despite having invaded law enforcement for years, Ray was released from prison early in 1987. By then, Anna and Eugene were back in the country. The family moved to Philadelphia. He went into IT and Anna worked as a housekeeper. Anna died of an overdose in 1989. She was 39 and Eugene was just seven years old at the time. She was in the living room with him when she combined coding and a sedative called glutmide, which was pulled from the market just four years later. This was a tragic loss for young child and Ray seemed to harbor a lot of anger toward Anna, which he readily admitted. Even in the Philadelphia of Inquirer, Ray once said in an interview, my basic reaction was anger because she bowed out and left me with a kid to raise. So it seems like this was a recipe for disaster. A young child left without his mom and with a father who blamed her for leaving. You know, we all protect our health, our cars, our phone, but what about your home?

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20:53Go to home serve.com slash criminology. For 50% last savings compared to renewal price, void and floored. We don't know all the details about what kind of father Ray was to you, Jean. But we do know that he was an author among other things. He used the name RC Horses for his artistic endeavors, which along with writing included taking erotic photos of young women and making pornographic videos. Some are actually most of his work was focused on say to massacism and his last published work, which was self published was titled slaves. According to horror news.net, his movie called deleted scenes made in 2016 is an experimental unconventional story told almost entirely from the viewpoint of a deeply disturbed sociopathic

21:53serial killer. And his movie called slaves is a controversial quasi-documentary about women who voluntarily enter into and remain in an ostensibly abusive emotional and sexual relationship. His film called snuff is a hyper realistic sexually graphic deeply psychological depiction of an encounter between a sadly troubled psychotic killer and his victim that transcends genres of both horror and porn. His 1973 pornographic film called the erotic memoirs of a male show venous pig is apparently focused on the main character's violent relationship with a woman struggling with substance abuse and features bondage and rapes. And to me more of all of this, it really paints a picture of what type of man we're dealing

22:53with here, this rei guy, what type of man he was and where his interests lay. I mean, he was into some really strange things for most people. Yeah, I'm a big horror movie fan and I know some of the stuff mentions a crossover of horror, but these aren't any of the movies I've ever seen and probably nothing I'd have an interest in watching, but raiders certainly into that stuff. But one thing that I found interesting was, you know, one of these films dealt with a violent relationship with a woman struggling with substance abuse. And we know that his wife died from an overdose. I just wonder, you know, they say that art imitates life and I wonder how much of this is a crossover. And I think as we get further along in this case, we're going to see that the lines sort of blur and please have to figure out what's truth and what's fiction.

23:55On a website owned by Ray, he published a so called biographical note written by an assie stochowski. In other words, this was an autobiographical blur by Ray describing himself as an artist, filmmaker, composer, writer, porn performer, drug smuggler, sometime political activist, art forger, counterfeiter, pot grower, air show pilot, army deserter, fugitive, sociopath, sex convict, and all-out villain. The same blurb notes that his works have increasingly reflected his focus on the darker aspects of human sexuality. When this is the kind of stuff he was filming, trying to photograph and writing about, of course it's going to look very suspicious to people and it did the police. But what if these descriptions of himself by Ray were not fiction? According to CBS News, Philadelphia, Ray once called himself kind of a natural as a perverted serial killer saying that assuming the role for films wasn't much of a stretch at all.

24:59And I consider myself to be into quite a few different things, right? I'm a podcast or I'm a father, a husband, you know, but that list was massive and so strange, right? For I think most people listening, it starts out kind of benign. I'm an artist, I'm a filmmaker, I'm a composer, but then it goes from the strange to the illegal to possibly murder or slash serial killer. Yeah, closing it out with sociopath, ex-configured and all-out villain, you know, that's his word. So, you know, it's pretty disturbing. Well, and to say it's not a stretch, right, to play a perverted serial killer. I mean, what are you really saying that that's what you are?

25:59I don't know how anyone would take that as anything, but that that's kind of the way you lean or the way you are. So let's turn back to Ray's family life for a little bit. He remarried to a woman named Amy McHale. They met sometime in the 1990s and they dated for a long time before they married in 2004. They lived together in Shalfa, but ended up divorcing four years later. Ray moved from Shalfa to the only home, the scene of this week's long search. He inherited the home in 2004 after his aunt passed away. Amy McHale went missing and has been missing since June of 2016. According to her daughter, Amanda Stofer, Amy was last seen at the home in Olme, or at least last heard from while she was there. On June 13, 2016, Amy called her mother Gloria to tell her she was going to head home soon.

27:05Gloria could tell that Amy was intoxicated and didn't want her walking alone at night while she was drunk. So she told her to stay where she was. Gloria told the Philadelphia inquire her. She was in no shape to take the subway. The next day, Amy called Amanda, but she didn't answer. So she left her a message. She said that she was doing fine and was at Ray's house. Amanda never heard from her again after that voicemail. At the time of that phone call, Eugene Horish was in prison. Ray claimed that Amy had been at the house when he fell asleep, but said she was already gone when he woke up the next morning. And this is the same story he would tell detectives looking into her disappearance. Amy's family members were always suspicious of Ray and felt that he knew more than he was telling him. Amy's mom, Gloria, told the Philadelphia inquire a long time ago before she even married him. She told me if anything ever happens to her that he was the one.

28:07She also said when Amy would disappear before, Raymond would always keep calling me. After this, I never heard from him. When Amy's family heard that there were searches being done on the property, they thought they were finally going to get some answers. Amanda told 6ABC Philadelphia that I immediately thought they had found my mom. This makes two missing women that are definitely linked to the horses. Amy McHale and Blair Tonselli. And more if we've heard this before and it never is a good thing, right? When someone tells a family member, hey, if something ever happens to me, this is the person who would have done something to me. That is so strange in my world. I have never thought to tell a family member, hey, just want to let you know if anything happens to me, my wife did it or this person did it because I don't think like that.

29:09So to me, that really tells you what she thought about Ray and what she knew he was capable up. Yeah, we don't know what Amy's mom said when she told her that and I don't want to blame her for her daughter who I'm missing later on. But I'd like to think if I was in that situation, I'd be like, what are you talking about? I'd want to get to the bottom of that common and try and get more details. Yeah, I'm sure there was more to that conversation that we don't know about, but that would be, if one of my daughters said that to me, obviously, we're going to have to have a deeper dive right into that. Blair was last seen in August of 2022. She was supposed to meet up with some of her friends, but she never made it and she hasn't been seen since. Her friends reported her missing in February 2023. Friends were called that she knew a man named Raymond who lived in Olney and would sell

30:13her marijuana. It was unusual for her to disappear for a few weeks while she was spending time with him, but she always showed back up and she was never out of contact for that long. Ray was in his 70s during the time that Blair would go to his house. She would stay there for extended periods. And if anyone asked, they would say she was working for him as a home healthy. The woman who was caught using Blair's name on an ID told investigators that Eugene Horton gave her the fake identification documents and instructed her to give them to police if she was ever stopped. She was happy to comply because she had warrants out for her arrest. So if she used her own name, she would be taken to jail. The woman told police that she had no idea who Blair was or that she had been reported missing. In an effort to get answers and figure out what was going on in the Raymond and Eugene universe, investigators poured over the contents of the electronic seized from the home.

31:17And this was a lot to go through more than 600,000 images and 70,000 videos. And among all of that, they found evidence related to two more missing women and the evidence wasn't good. Images of these two missing women, 27 year old Maribel Freces and 22 year old Gabriel and Miranda indicate that they're now dead. Maribel Freces was last seen in the Kensington area Philadelphia where her boyfriend was living at the time in June or July of 2018. There hasn't been more information, at least any publicly released information about the details of their deaths, which many people believe are the result of murder. We don't know when the photographs or videos of them were taken, what they actually show or which of the horsemen, if not both of them, was involved. But whatever police found, it has led them to believe that Gabriel and Maribel are dead.

32:18Philadelphia police inspector Ray Evers told 6 ABC Philadelphia, it's real dark. What we saw is these two girls alive. There is a period of time. And what appears to us, they're deceased. He explained that while searching the first hard drive, homicide detectives found the images and video of what appeared to be two deceased females. He also used the phrase, based on the video and photo evidence. So it sounds like there are photos and some kind of video. And it sounds like there may have been proof they were alive inside the home at some point before their deaths. Whatever they saw though, isn't enough for the medical examiner to declare a cause of death. And since they're missing, there's no body to examine. But it seems like if there was something caught on video, that is what clearly caused their deaths. That perhaps that could be used in lieu of an autopsy.

33:18There's a ton of online speculation and rumors that the women were visibly injured and imposed in unnatural ways. Authorities notified the Freces and Amarondo families that their daughters were likely dead, which is something you would hope they would do only if they were extremely confident in that fact. So more if you talked about it, 600,000 images and 70,000 videos. Now I know a lot of people take pictures. They save pictures. But I think it's pretty clear that we're not talking about family photos here. I don't know that all 600,000 images and all the 70,000 videos are dark, twisted and illegal. But you have to believe that a lot of them are. Yeah, I think for the police, since they know Raymond made movies with these kinds of

34:23themes, they've got to figure out some of these willing participants that were involved with their own consent or are these victims potentially of his? And to me, at least as it relates to these two women, this is not a scenario of pictures and videos of them being portrayed as deceased. Something that's coming out is that the police know they are not a lot. To me, I don't know much about them, but you would think that's the very definition, of a snuff film. Yeah, to your point about snuff films, I don't really know anything about them. But my understanding, at least what I believe is that they have something to do with filming someone being purposefully murdered on film. So you have to wonder, do police have some kind of evidence that that happened here?

35:26Well, the one thing I will say, right, this police inspector said it's real dark. And I don't think there's any doubt about that. And it might be an understatement, right? Real dark, definitely, but probably even more than that. And investigators are being extremely thorough in multiple areas of this investigation, not just when it comes to the digital evidence they seized. The home sewer line was also excavated and collected in July. Cadavra dogs were also brought into search for the property. Investigators clearly seem to believe there may be more evidence of what was going on in this house and on that property. All state charges against Eugene Horsh had been dropped. He's still in federal custody with a bail set at $500,000, and he'll face trial in the federal charges. Investigators are still working through everything on the hard drives so there may be more discoveries in the future. As of early August, 95 search warrants have been executed in this case. No charges have been filed regarding the former missing women linked to this home, and no

36:30digital evidence linking Amy MacKal or Blair Tonselli to the home has been discovered. Yeah, this house sounds like a place that I would never want to visit. I've noticed some people have deemed that a house of horrors online, and I for one fully agree with that. This doesn't sound like a nice place to go. Yeah, I'm right with you, Morph, but here's my thought. We don't even know everything. This is a case that is still unfolding. They're still working through evidence. My thought is there's going to be probably more in the future to come out about what they found in the house, what they ultimately end up linking as far as what happened in that house. I think when it's all said and done, this is going to turn out to be a house of horrors, and it could ultimately be on the list of some of those houses you think about of really

37:34depraved individuals. This could be a domer residence. It could be a gasey residence, possibly in the grand scheme of things. Yeah, to me, this has the makings of a horror movie and that's something that Raymond would probably love the idea of. So we talked a couple of times about the woman who was caught with Eugene while using Blair Tonselli's name on an ID. There's no further information on her that police have released, but documents indicate that she was cooperative with the investigation. She did have her own warmth, so she may end up serving time depending on what they were for, unless her cooperation in this case leads to some kind of deal. From what we can gather, it seems like they were all drug charges. So it's likely that something could be worked out. This woman reportedly told detectives that Eugene Brad about knowing how to get rid of bodies using chemical.

38:36And I think this may end up being a big deal. This woman, whoever she is, she has warmth. So that could be a big carrot, right? That law enforcement can use to get her to testify. I mean, we've seen deals like that happen all the time. These are drug charges. Hey, we'll drop them. You testify. Who's not going to take that deal? People don't want to spend time in prison. That's why they take those kind of deals. And I just wonder if she's being honest and she really didn't know anything about Blair. Can she really provide any more details that will help investigators or if she's just going to give them some hearsay about Eugene. It'll be interesting to see what she actually has if anything. Yeah. Well, hearsay is probably not going to get you the deal, right?

39:37You're going to need some concrete information to get that kind of deal of dropping all the charges. But she's not the only one talking about or has talked about the horses. My name, Krista Killan, had some interactions with Ray and Eugene Horses. She met Ray in Kensington where she was using fentanyl and crack cocaine regularly. Ray trucker in off the streets and according to her was not violent or creepy toward her. He also provided her with drugs to use so she wouldn't have to go back to Kensington where she would often have to perform sex work in order to have enough money just to keep from getting sick from severe withdrawals. Krista agreed to model for Ray's photos and videos often nude and sometimes depicting death or violence. Krista knew Ray's son Eugene too, but she didn't have the same safe and caring relationship with Eugene that she shared with his father. She was actually afraid of Eugene because due to his drug use, he had been unexpectedly

40:40angry and violent multiple times and he often carried weapons around. Krista told people about a very scary incident that happened just two years ago. In 2024, at that time she was still staying in the basement at the home and only. Eugene started banging on the door until the lock broke and he barged in, screaming at her and threatening to kill her. The whole time he was holding a gun. Ray then 80 years old defused the situation and took Eugene back upstairs. Danielle Wynn, one of Krista's close friends, told the Philadelphia inquirer that Krista was always fearful that if something happened to Ray or he passed away, Eugene wouldn't know what to do and he wouldn't know how to control himself. It was apparently Krista who accidentally started the fire. We mentioned earlier in the episode which damaged the second story of the home. She was smoking a cigarette shortly after having a leg amputated and wasn't able to move

41:44quickly enough to put out the fire after Ember's ignited something in the room. Krista ultimately died of an overdose. She was 47 years old. She passed away just three months after Ray did. One of the questions I have in this case, and I think a lot of people probably do, is you have father and son, right? Ray and Eugene, are they killers? Are they both killers? Is one a killer and one not? One thing that is striking to me is that a number of people talked about Ray and I guess what she'd have to call more of kind of a fatherly figure type of way. Obviously Krista did. Now, he was giving her drugs. He was doing a bunch of illegal things, but she said he wasn't violent or even creepy towards her. But that wasn't the same for Eugene.

42:45Now Ray was in his late 70s, 80 years old, so you have to take that into account too. Man, this is a fascinating story. You have two individuals, father and son, that seem to be very similar, but what is the actual dynamic? I think that's what a lot of people are trying to figure out. It seems like unfortunately some of the people that may have answers that might help fill in the puzzle pieces are either dead or missing, and we're just missing some of those answers at this point. Ray's first wife, who was his high school sweetheart, told the Philadelphia Inquirer that he was emotionally abusive. She also said that he really thought he was smarter than anybody. He thought that he could get away with anything. Amy McAll's daughter recalled Ray Horses is very quiet and very intelligent.

43:45So investigators have a really mixed bag of the input from people that knew Ray and Eugene, but overwhelmingly as a whole, it's not a flattering picture of the father and son. Investigators still have a real task ahead of them, making their way through all the pictures, movies, the pieces of writing. At a press conference, police said the first hard drive that investigators searched, which contained the images of Gabrielle and Maribel represents 5 to 7% of the evidence that has been collected and needs to be reviewed. They also have to figure out what is fake and what might be evidence of an actual crime. And this could be a real challenge for them. Ray is dead, so they can't ask him who his models in the photos or videos were or how to contact them. Ray wanted his images and films to look as realistic as possible and to depict women in various awful scenarios.

44:47One of his movies, which he screamed publicly, had a scene where it appears a dead body is cremated. Was it art and special effects? Or did he openly film his misdeed? Or is artistic works just a way to create a cover for the things that he was really doing? It was no secret that he made art focused on sex, bondage, rape, and violence. And it was no secret that he used models who were struggling with addiction and willing to do a lot if it meant that they had free drugs in a safe place to sleep. Unfortunately, these are the type of people who might be usually preyed upon. And to me, this thought of these hundreds of thousands of pictures and 70,000 videos that law enforcement has to go through and this question of, okay, how do they figure out what is fake or art? And I hate to use that word because to me, none of this is art, right? Filmmaking or whatever you want to call it.

45:48And what is, like, real crimes? First of all, it's got to be horrible for the people who have to do this type of work. Because they have to look through hundreds of thousands of images that I'm sure they don't want to see. Or if nobody wants to sit there and look at all this stuff, but they have to do it. And I'm sure real painstaking work. Yeah, then they have the task of trying to identify anybody they find in those photos or videos and maybe contact them, question them. So this could be a real lengthy process. Yeah, and I think you just touched on the real important part, right? Who's in these? How do we figure out who they are? We need to contact them. What if it turns out that some of these people are missing? I mean, it could open up a Pandora's box of crime.

46:48And to me, that's the question. Kind of scope are we looking at here? When this thing's all said and done, it could be massive. One of the photo collections on Ray's website is described as pictures of real heroin overdose victims, which are said to be very graphic and disturbing. According to online posts, these photos were alleged to have been somehow photographed in unknowing collaboration with the Philadelphia medical examiner and the 24th and 25th district EMT units. Now, it's not clear how that happened or if it actually did happen, but if it did, it's troubling and investigators are definitely going to have to look into that. So what happened in Raymond and Eugene's home? What horrors may have unfolded there? It's going to be hard to prove that anyone was killed inside the home without undeniable forensic evidence or actual remains. But if the horse really did note how to use chemicals to break down a body to the point

47:53you could flush them down the toilet, resulting in police digging up their pipes, does it mean it's possible they will never find the evidence they need? Police also have to figure out what horrors in that home are real and which were fake. Michael Yoder, retired FBI agent, said of the situation in an interview with the Philadelphia Inquirer. If you say he viewed women in the fake death or fake assaults on video, it'll throw a jury through a loop. You're getting the point of if they don't believe something, they won't believe everything. This entire situation has left Ray and Eugene's neighbors understandably shocked and shaken. Larry Allosi, who lives on the same street, told 6 ABC News, it shows you don't know who your neighbors are. Eugene's attorney, on the other hand, seems to be downplaying all of this, saying this is much a do about nothing. If any of these women died of drug overdoses, it doesn't explain why they're still missing. Even if this is what happened to them, even if they weren't murdered, their families

48:56deserve the truth and to know where their bodies are. Whatever answers Ray Horsh had, he took to the grave. Eugene Hors remained in custody at the Kern Fromhold Correctional Facility in Philadelphia. This case was set to go to trial on September 8, 2026, but has now been postponed until January 20, 2027. Now Eugene is arguing that his BMW, which is still in police custody, should be returned to him so that he can sell it or use it as collateral to help pay for his legal fees, which as you might imagine, are going to be quite hefty. It doesn't surprise me at all that this case has been postponed. We talked about this mountain of evidence that authorities have to go through. I'm sure they need probably more time to figure out what all is in there. We mentioned how hard it might be to track down some of these individuals. Not shocking at all to me that this has been postponed.

49:58All that time that investors need to go through it, then at any kind of trial, the legal defense that team they'll want to have time to go through everything too. This could be drawn out pretty far. Yeah, that's a great point. It wouldn't surprise me if it gets postponed again. This is still an open investigation. Anyone with information about the property, the horses, or any missing women in the area, especially Amy McAill, Gabrielle, Emerondo, Blair Tonselli, and Maribel Freason, are encouraged to contact authorities with what they know. You can call the Philadelphia Police Department's tip line at 215-686-TIPS, or if you would prefer to connect with someone from the homicide unit, you can call 215-686-3334. So more as we wrap this one up, obviously it's an ongoing thing.

51:01We don't know everything. Nobody knows everything. I don't even think law enforcement at this point knows everything, but obviously they're not going to share all of what they know anyway. But from what has come out, this is a dark, but fascinating case. You have a father in Raymond, who obviously was at the very least into some incredibly strange stuff. I don't think there's any doubts from what's come out that he was targeting vulnerable women who were addicted to drugs. He was supplying them with drugs and a place to stay. But was it just for them to appear in pictures, to appear in films?

52:02Even if that's all it was, he's still taking advantage of them. He's giving them illegal drugs, things like that. But to me, there could be a lot more to it. The thing I can't get out of my mind is that when some of this is happening, he's in his 70s. He's 80 years old. What did this guy do in his 20s, 30s and 40s? He moved around a lot. So who knows what kind of criminal profile he has. He's seen to be proud of his resume of being a villain. So he could have any number of crimes and victims over those decades. And as you said, the Apple doesn't seem to have fallen very far from the tree. I think Eugene is still alive. He's the one that's going to go on trial. I am just fascinated to learn what comes out as time goes on.

53:02And I wonder if there'll be a point where he takes some kind of plea and reveals some of the truth. I tend to doubt that. But who knows, self-preservation is a key thing for a lot of people. If Raymond had anything to do with any of these deaths or these missing women, if they had said his hand, then he's escaped justice. He died before he could be accountable for this stuff. But I have a couple of thoughts. One is that it wouldn't surprise me if Eugene does try to put a lot of this on his father since Raymond is deceased. The other thing is, and we talk about it quite a bit, right? I always feel as though some of these really bad individuals have a lot more that police don't discover. I feel like a lot of times serial killers have more victims.

54:04They're not just going to offer them up. If police don't know about them, I just feel like this could end up being just a massive case. One thing I'm left wondering at the end of this episode, what happens to that house? That house gives me, I think I used this term in the last episode, but I have to bring it up again, gives me the Ick factor. Because I personally wouldn't want to go in the house if I didn't have gloves on, hazmat suits, something like that. It doesn't sound like it was a very pleasant place to go. Who knows what things happen in there? This house gets turned over to the city or the state, if whatever happens to it and it's not owned by Eugene anymore. Somebody at some point you think has to sell this house. Who wants to move in there with this dark history that this place has? It's one of the things that I take away from this episode.

55:06Yeah. With all of the things that we've talked about, I think ultimately this will be another one of those houses that gets torn down, right? Because that does happen quite a bit, especially if it turns out to be the house of horrors that many people believe it is, it'll probably have to be torn down. But this is an interesting one and it's a case that we're just going to have to keep an eye on to see what comes out. But that's it for our episode on Eugene and Raymond Horses. As always, if you love the show, take a minute, leave us a rating, you can leave a review. Also keep telling your friends, word about the podcast really goes a long way. If you want to find us on social media, we're on every major platform. Just search for criminology podcast on your favorites. For news about the show, old episodes and more, head over to criminologypodcast.com. And if you want to join a discussion about the cases we discussed in the podcast, head

56:06over to Facebook and search for criminology podcast, discussion and fans. So that's it for another episode of criminology. But more fun, I will be back with all of you next Saturday night with a brand new episode. So until then, for Mike and Morph, we'll talk to you next week. Take care, everyone.