Gary Heidnik

0:00The Wonderland murders shocked Los Angeles, and exposed a dark underworld of drugs, betrayal, and violence hiding behind the glamour of Hollywood, later inspiring books, films, and decades of speculation. But the real story is even darker than the movies. They thought it was a robbery gone wrong. What detectives found inside this small house on Wonderland Avenue was a bloodbath so brutal, even seasoned investigators were shaken. Four people dead, no forced entry, and one name that kept surfacing, John Holmes. Join us every week on a Laughal Acts as we uncover the people who seem ordinary at first, but reveal something far more dangerous underneath. This is the podcast for people who crave the full story without the filler. Subscribe now to Unlawful Acts wherever you get your podcasts. This is Jess Betancourt, the host of DNA ID, the only true crime podcast that exclusively covers cold cases

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2:31You're one and welcome, episode 424 of the Criminology Podcast. This is Mike Ferguson. And this is Mike Bonford. Mr. Morford, how you doing this week, buddy? I'm doing pretty good, how you doing? I'm doing great. It is about 95 degrees here in Ohio. A little warm, that's norm for you, I'm sure, but we're having a little mini heat wave up here. Yeah, it's always a mini heat wave here, so, but I feel like I know that August and the September timeline up in the North East is still pretty brutal. Yeah, it can be, but then, you know, it'll drop. It'll drop to the 70s, and then it's like 95. It's all over the map. You know, that's what makes it strange, I think, for us. Well, for you know, it'll be shoveling snow. You'll be having a lot of fun. I'm not complaining to be honest with you because I am not ready for the snow. All right, let's go ahead and give our Patreon shout outs. We had new support from Matthew Cosgrove and Scott Frazier. So we really appreciate that.

3:32Thank you so much, Matthew and Scott, and thanks to everyone else that helped support the show. If you want to help support the show, head over to patreon.com slash criminology to get started. All right, buddy, let's jump right into this week's case. And we are sort of piggybacking on last week's case when we covered the father and son duo Raymond and Eugene Horsch in the Philadelphia area. And please believe that one or both of them are responsible for a series of crimes that are still unfolding. And that got us thinking, you know, although the horses had a house of horrors of their own, which we talked about, it was not the original house of horrors to make news in Philadelphia. The man that owned that infamous home might say to the horses, you know, hold my beer because he did some awfully shocking things that we'll get into in this episode. But before we get into what Gary Hydnick did, we want to just give a quick couple of updates on the Horsch case as some new things have come out

4:35since last week's episode. The first development is that there is now a fifth missing woman linked to the Horsch house and only, but her name has not been released publicly, like the others. Authorities believe that she is dead based on digital evidence. And we spend some time, more, if you know, speculating about what kind of images or videos could have investigators so sure that the women were dead. And a little bit more has come out about that as well. Investigators now believe that Raymond Horsch actually filmed himself strangling the woman today. They are so sure that this was not acting and special effects that they have notified the victims' relatives. So this will undoubtedly continue to unfold. So say tuned, but for now, we're going to turn our attention to Gary Hydnick and he became infamous for terrorizing North Philadelphia long before the Horses hit the news

5:39or anyone knew about what they were doing. On March 24th, 1987, Josephine Rivera made a frantic 911 call. She was at a pay phone near a gas station in Philadelphia and she didn't have much time. She frantically told the 911 dispatcher that she needed officers right away. Police raced to the phone booth and found a very shaken up in the strait, Josephina. She was so upset that she could barely talk. She tried to get the words out, obviously in shock, saying you have to help me. Finally, she was able to compose herself just long enough to tell the officers that she had been abducted and held captive for four months. The man who was holding her was waiting for her at the gas station and it wasn't just her that would be in danger if he found out she was speaking to authorities. The officer was trying to process what they were hearing when Josephina blurted out that her abductor was also holding three other women captive in his basement. She said that he had already killed two others. She gave the officers a description of her captor

6:40and told them where he was parked nearby. Police quickly spotted him and rushed in to apprehend him. According to court documents, the man simply said, what's this all about officer? Did I pay my child support? Police quickly identified the man as 43-year-old Gary Hydnick. For Josephina, she was safe and she was free. But for police, this was just the beginning of something that seemed to have come right out of a horror movie. So to tell this story properly, we have to go way back. Gary Hydnick had dropped out of high school, both public high school and the military academy he attended. And went on to join the United States Army. He completed his GED while he was stationed in West Germany and was trained as a medic. But he was discharged just 14 months after enlisting due to signs of mental illness, whether he was really experiencing mental health issues or whether he made them up. To get out of an assignment he was unhappy with

7:41is still debated to this day. According to oxygen.com, one friend of his claim that he did have a legitimate real nervous breakdown but recovered and then began to fake it so that his disability payments wouldn't stop. Before long, Hydnick was working as a licensed practical nurse at a Veterans Administration Hospital in Kootesville, Pennsylvania. That job didn't last long because Gary was eventually fired from the VA hospital. In 1978, Hydnick went to Harrisburg State Hospital in Kiddnapped, Alberta, Davidson, the sister of his girlfriend at the time. She was intellectually disabled, which is why she was at the hospital. But she was allowed to go places with her family and friends during the day. But Hydnick signed her out for the day and just never brought her back. He locked her in a large closet in his basement where he sexually assaulted her. As if this terrible rape by Hydnick wasn't enough,

8:41he also infected Alberta with gonorrhea. Police soon pieced together that Gary had likely taken Alberta and after two weeks, she was finally rescued. It took two searches of Gary Hydnick's home to find her. Following Hydnick's arrest, he was charged with unlawful restraint, interfering with the custody of a committed person and recklessly endangering another person as well as kidnapping, rape, and false imprisonment. Unfortunately, because Alberta wasn't able to testify against Gary Hydnick, the kidnapping, rape, and false imprisonment charges were dropped. While he was still convicted on some of the lesser charges, he was sentenced to only three to seven years in prison. Judge Charles Marachi, who presided over the trial, said, if it had been in my power, to give him longer, I would have. Gary Hydnick wound up serving four years in prison and in various psychiatric hospitals for what he did to Alberta,

9:42according to oxjuned.com, during one of those stints in psychiatric care, one psychiatrist found a high probability that Hydnick would commit a similar crime in the future. When he wasn't raping helpless victims or in prison, Gary Hydnick found time to have a family. He was a father of three. He had his first son named Gary Junior with a developmentally disabled woman named Gail Linkel. Gary Junior was placed in foster care because Gail was unable to care for a child due to her disabilities. Then Hydnick and Anjennette Davidson, who was the sister of Alberta, had a daughter named Maxine. Anjennette was also developmentally disabled and so was Maxine. Because of this, Maxine was taken from her custody and placed in foster care. Hydnick kidnapped Alberta right after Maxine's birth and placement in the foster care. By the time he was released from prison, Maxine and Anjennette were both gone. So let's take a minute more

10:42and just kind of discuss what we know about Gary Hydnick. I think there's one thing that jumps out to me in particular and that's the type of women that he's praying upon. I don't think there's any doubt that he was absolutely praying upon women who were in some way developed mentally disabled. Yeah, I think to do any of these things that he did to any woman are terrible enough, but to pray on the most vulnerable people that he thinks he can maybe persuade easier, maybe get away with his crime because they won't be able to report it. It just seems like he's picking on the most people that are most vulnerable in society and I think that tells a lot about his character. Well, we know this guy's a monster, right?

11:43But it really struck me that these crimes against Alberta for which he was arrested, charged and convicted, just shocking to me that he only got to serve four years in prison. Now, I get it. She was unable to testify and that probably hurt the prosecution's case, but I feel as though if that were to happen today, there would have to be, you know, something that would allow for more time. I mean, we're talking about a man who took advantage of an intellectually disabled woman locked her in his basement and sexually assaulted. I feel as though even today, if she wasn't able to, you know, testify, they'd still be able to get him for more than they did back in 1978. Yeah, we talk often about those sentences

12:47that they handed down back then and they just, you know, for the level of crime, for the violence that was involved in a lot of crimes, you know, some of those sentences were shockingly short. And what does that do to these perpetrators? You know, I think about it a lot because obviously we're early on. We're getting ready to talk about a lot more crimes that Gary Hydenick committed and there's no doubt that this short sentence, and I would call for you short for what he did, these short sentences, they embolden these guys, right? They already have it in their head that they want to do these horrible things and then even when they're caught to them, it's just a slap on the wrist. I mean, it's not something that's going to deter them, you know, when they get out, when they become free again. Gary Hydenick ended up finding a wife

13:48through a mail order service after two years of being pin pals, a woman named Betty Disto moved from the Philippines to the US to marry Hydenick. Their marriage wasn't a happy one. Almost immediately Hydenick started bringing women home and sleeping with them sometimes three at once and he didn't even try to hide it. He was also abusive and controlling just months after the wedding, Betty told the police that Hydenick had sexually assaulted her. He was arrested and charged with spousal rape and assault, but the charges were dropped because Betty simply fled the area instead of having to face Hydenick again. She was three months pregnant when she wrote a letter in Tagalog to the Philippine consulate asking for help to escape her marriage. In September 1986, Hydenick heard from Betty again. She was requesting child support. He had a son.

14:48His name was Jesse John Disto. She only wanted the child support and didn't wish to see him or rekindle their relationship. She didn't want him and Jesse's life. Gary Hydenick concertly afforded support to son because he was very good with investments. It was able to turn 1500 hours into more than half a million on the stock market. Just one month after learning he had a son, Hydenick kidnapped Josephina. So for Gary Hydenick, this made two known kidnappings right after he received big and upsetting news about a child. After Gary Hydenick was taken into custody for his attack on Josephina, the Philadelphia police department immediately sent officers to search his row home. Located at 3520 North Marshall Street in North Philadelphia, when they got there, they could hear a television blaring from somewhere inside. That TV, which was always on, was set to drown out any other noises coming from the home.

15:49Based on something Josephina said, one of the officers went straight to the kitchen and there was no way he could have been ready for what he found. Nearly 30 pounds of human body parts were found inside the freezer. Other officers headed downstairs to the basement where they found even more unimaginable horrors. Three women were secured in chains, just like Josephina had described. One of them was in a dugout hole in the floor, covered by bags of dirt and old pieces of wood. This was a scene that even seasoned officers were caught off guard by. So we already knew that Gary Hydenick was a bad individual, but wow. I mean, this is, to me, kind of reminiscent of a science of the lamb. So I mean, this guy had a pit in his basement where he was holding women.

16:49Yeah, very disturbing. And then you've got body parts in the freezer. That's bringing up some memories of Jeffrey Dahmer, making me think of Texas chainsaw massacre, and we mentioned earlier something out of horror movie, and this seems like a scene out of horror movie. Josephina was abducted by Gary Hydenick on November 25, 1986, when she was just 25 years old. At the time, she had been a sex worker for five years, mostly to support her drug addiction. Hydenick agreed to pay her $20 for her services. She agreed to go to his house to have sex, because Hydenick said he was too tall for them to do it comfortably in his car. But the last thing she could remember before waking up in handcuffs was Hydenick choking her from behind. She lost consciousness, and the next thing she knew, she was in a basement, chained to a pipe. Gary Hydenick kidnapped 24-year-old Sandra Lindsay on December 3, 1986, when she was walking to the store

17:50at around three in the afternoon. Sandra was experiencing menstrual cramps, and needed to buy some medication for it. As she was walking, Hydenick drove past and stopped. The two were already acquainted, they had known each other for about two years, at that point. And with it being winter, it's not hard to imagine that she accepted when he offered her a ride in a warm car. She had no reason not to trust him. Sandra knew Hydenick is Gary. The bishop of a church he created, called the United Church of the Ministers of God. He was fun to be around, and it seemed that he took care of her. Her sister, Tracy Lomax, told PhillyMag.com that Sandra told her that Gary was going to take Sandy and her friends to great adventure. And he was always buying them dinner at McDonald's. Sandra worked at L.W. Institute in West Philadelphia, a center that provides comprehensive intellectual and developmental disability services.

18:51Hydenick showed up there looking for people to join his church, which was based out of his house. He met many people at the L.W. Institute. Most of them had some sort of intellectual disability. You would buy them food and things they wanted. You would let them ride in his new car. You would give them money, take them places. While some of the people Hydenick targeted there were duped, the staff was suspicious of him. They became aware of Hydenick's prowling and even reported suspicions that he was taking advantage of the women sexually. But since they were adults, nothing was done. Sandra was intellectually disabled and walked with a noticeable limp. One article in the Philadelphia Daily News described her as childlike. So more if this goes back to our earlier discussion about the type of victim that Hydenick looked for. And now I think we can clearly see that he was grooming these individuals. He was gaining their trust.

19:51He was giving them things, taking them places. I don't think there's any doubt. He was grooming these women. Yeah, I think he probably counted on them on their disabilities to keep his secret. Maybe they wouldn't be able to tell people explain what was going on. Maybe they didn't have anybody. They trusted there at that facility enough to share this stuff. So, you know, the fact he was hanging out in this place just looking for potential victims pretty disturbing. Support for today's episode comes from Square. And they've got big news. Square keeps rolling out new tools designed to help businesses spend less time managing the day-to-day and more time growing. We're talking AI that can spot what needs your attention, new ways to help customers discover an order from your business, tools to better manage your money, and even new ways to accept Bitcoin. And the best part, it all works with the same square system. You may already use. I've got some favorite restaurants in the town where I live.

20:54And I know that they use Square. I see their little ad on the door. And I always know when I go there, that everything is gonna be seamless. And I think a big part of that is Square. Square helps you manage your staff, payroll, and schedule in one place, and take every payment type from tap to pay, to Apple Pay to end voices. Square launched its most powerful tools yet, designed to give local businesses a competitive edge without the complexity. If you're ready to sell smarter, run faster, and stress less, right now, you can get up to $200 off Square Hardware. At square.com slash go slash criminology. That's square.com slash geo slash criminology. Run your business smarter with Square. It started today. Sandra's family were initially suspicious of HydeNIC when she disappeared. So suspicious in fact that they asked the police to go to his home to look for her. The police did just that, but he didn't answer the door so they left. And that was the end of it.

21:55They didn't circle back for a follow up. Her brothers spent a lot of time outside the house, watching, waiting, around Christmas time, they received a card from her. It was postmarked from New York. Despite the clue pointing to New York, her family still suspected that Gary HydeNIC had something to do with her disappearance. And they were right. HydeNIC had forced Sandra to write what she did in the card. And then he drove to New York in order to direct attention away from himself. When Sandra's family told police that they felt the New York letter was a red herring, authorities were of the belief that she was fine and just simply didn't want to come home. In fact, she wasn't fine. She was trapped in Gary HydeNIC's house of horse experiencing untold tears. On December 23, 1986, just 20 days after Gary HydeNIC had abducted Sandra, he kidnapped 19 or at least a Thomas. He was driving a very nice car and offered her some money

22:56to come to his home. By the time she sensed any danger, she was handcuffed and being dragged down to the basement. Just two days later on Christmas, when HydeNIC thought one of the women was pregnant, he celebrated. He bought champagne in a ton of Chinese takeout to share with his victims. And I can't help more, but try to imagine what these women were experiencing. Being kidnapped, handcuffed, dragged to this basement and put into a pit in that basement. And I keep coming back to Sans of the Lams. Obviously, it's a very famous movie, but they do have that scene in the movie where that woman is in the pit and I always thought that was scary. Yeah, that's a classic horror movie scene. And it is scary and the fact that it had happened in a real life scenario here is even more frightening.

23:57And then this thought that HydeNIC is celebrating with his victims, he's buying champagne, he's buying Chinese takeout and sharing it with them. When he thinks one of the women is pregnant. Man, it makes me wonder what he's celebrating. Does he think that one will give birth and then he'll have some new family of his own or a potential new victim that he can victimize one day? It just a very, very bizarre scene here. Well, and that part is a little reminiscent of the aerial Castro. Situation where he abducted women, held them for many, many years, had children with them. I mean, this HydeNIC guy is kind of a mix of some of the scariest predators ever.

24:58On January 2nd, 1987, about a week and a half after abducting Lisa Thomas, Gary HydeNIC abducted 23-year-old Deborah Dudley. And he didn't stop there. Just over two weeks later, on January 18th, he kidnapped 18-year-old Jacqueline Askins, or Jackie, as she was known. She was also earning money through sex work at the time. He offered her $500 to come home with him. And once there, he overpowered her and added her to his growing list of captives. $500 is a lot of money. And it was a heck of a lot of money in 1987. But this is something that I think about quite a bit when it comes to these types of predators. My thought is he can offer her as much money as he wants to, because he knows he's never going to pay it. If she accepts the offer, comes home with him,

26:01she's going to become one of his captives. And he's never going to be out that money. Yeah, that was a lot of money back then. We talked a little bit earlier that he was successful in the stock market and had made quite a bit of money. So I guess even if he wanted to pay her, he could have. But I'm with you. I don't think he ever would have paid her. He would have just chained her up and kept the money. He was wallet. But think about, this woman is 18 years old. I started to say girl, she's very young, but technically, she's a woman, she's an adult. She's earning money through sex work for whatever reason. Maybe that's just to pay the bills. Maybe it's to feed a drug habit. We don't know all the details of that. But regardless, how is she going to turn down $500? Because as we said, that would have been a lot of money. Once Haydnick had multiple victims together, he began to lose control trying to manage the situation.

27:04He became enraged when he realized that the woman could hear him coming and going from the house because they could hear the front door opening. He hatched a plan to make sure they wouldn't be able to coordinate with each other and plan anything to escape. He tied them up, gag them so their screams were muffled, and push screwdrivers in their ears. The women were fed only bread, dog food, and dog treats. He sexually assaulted them randomly. He beat them. He forced them to beat each other. This was a terrible situation for all of these women. Haydnick seemed to treat Sandra the worse. When she wasn't eating the measly amount of bread he allowed her to have fast enough. He tied her up and hung her from the ceiling by her wrist. He left her that way for days. Due to starvation, a fever, being beaten and eventually suffocating, due to the position she was left in, Sandra died. This poor girl must have suffered unimaginably. But even in debt, Gary Haydnick terrorized her body

28:08and his remaining victims. He showed Josephina Sandra's corpse and forced Jacqueline to help dismember her. And that wasn't all. Haydnick told the women that they had eaten parts of Sandra. He claimed to have cooked parts of her body and mixed it in with the dog food, which he then fed to his victims. He said to have boiled her head and put her ribs in the oven. More recent articles claim that there is no evidence of any cannibalism in the home and that this didn't happen. But to this day, there remains some dispute about it. After Sandra's murder, neighbors reported a hard stench to police, like burning flesh coming from Haydnick's home. An officer stopped by the home to investigate and Haydnick claimed that he fell asleep while he was cooking or roast and it got badly burnt. With that explanation, the officer left. The remaining women felt that it was only a matter of time before they too would be dead and that it seemed unlikely that anyone would rescue them. They decided to push back against Haydnick and stand up to him.

29:10Deborah decided to stop listening to Haydnick. She wouldn't be quiet when he told her and he became enraged. He filled the pit in the floor with water and put Deborah in it, still in metal chain. Then he forced Josephina to touch a live wire to the chains. She was forced to do it multiple times. The electric current shocked Deborah multiple times and she died from electrocution. After Deborah's murder, Haydnick changed his strategy. Instead of dismembering her and trying to cook or freeze any part of her remains, he drove her body to Wharton State Forest, near Hampton, New Jersey, and what's known as the Pine Barons. An area made up of thousands of acres of sand and scrub pine trees. It's very isolated. He took Josephina with him and forced her to help dispose of Deborah's body. Later, after Josephina was rescued, she would lead investigators to that area in the Pine Barons and Deborah's remains were recovered. After she helped him hide Deborah's body,

30:11he made Josephina sign a confession detailing her responsibility in Deborah's murder to likely use his leverage against her. The letter read, Gary Haydnick and Josephina Rivera electrocuted Deborah Dudley on March 17th in the basement of 3520 North Marshall Street by electrocution. You know one of the things that I keep thinking more is that some of these things that we're talking about, they're so horrible that I don't know if you wrote this in a script if people would buy it. Now I get it, we have horror movies, we have all types of those movies, but I think some of these things that people do, they just sometimes don't even seem believable. And this is kind of what I'm getting with Gary Haydnick. I mean, this guy was an absolute monster. Yeah, this is all very cool and disgusting stuff that's being done. And then he sort of twist it to a new level. It's not enough that he's inflicting, you know, pain

31:14and suffering on people. Now he's enlisting his victims to help do that as well. And that's just, you know, a whole other level to gravity, I think. And I know I mentioned science of the Lambs. You know, I'm getting some saw here, you know, parts of Domer. I mentioned Ariel Castro, some other individuals as well. I mean, there's just, this is a sick individual. I'm down about it. Many people believe that Gary Haydnick didn't mean for Sandra and Deborah to die. But Sandra's sister disagrees. She told PhillyMag.com, he killed Deborah on purpose because she was a fighter. She was strong and she would have killed it. And I actually agree with Deborah's sister. I think Gary Haydnick did feel threatened by Deborah. I think he knew what he was doing when he electrocuted her or had one of his other captors, Josephina electrocute her.

32:19I know I talked about it earlier, but you know, Gary, I feel he was used to praying on the most vulnerable of victims. And normally people like that, they don't want to take that risk of, you know, someone standing up to them. And I feel that that was what happened here. You know, Deborah was fighting. She was standing up to him. She wasn't acting like maybe some of his other victims had. So he felt threatened and he killed her. Yeah, to me, this just demonstrates that this guy is the weakest of the weak to not only target these very vulnerable victims that he did, but then when they show any sign of resistance and fighting back, he's, you know, afraid of that too. So he takes steps to minimize the risk to himself

33:19and he's just very pathetic person. On March 23rd, 1987, just days after Deborah's murder, Haydnick captured 24-year-old Agnes Adams. She had been living on her own after running away at the age of 12. She would always remain in some kind of contact with her family though. Haydnick and Josephina, along with a man named Tony, will discuss later, picked Agnes up in a new Cadillac. She told her father they were going to Atlantic City. Instead, she ended up in Haydnick's basement, chained to a pipe. This likely was the last straw for Josephina and it seems she knew her time was running out and had to try and escape. On March 24th, 1987, the day after Agnes Adams was abducted, Josephina was able to convince Haydnick to let her try to lure a victim on her own. She talked him into letting her out on her own and that he could wait nearby in his car while she found a victim to take back to his house. Some reports say that Josephina talked Gary

34:22and to taking her to see her family, but whatever the case, Haydnick let his guard down and Josephina was determined to make her escape. So she took her chances that day and ran, looking for help. While she could have ran and hid, her thoughts turned to the victim's still in Haydnick's basement. She called police and put it in to Haydnick's horoscope. Man, I just have to think more of how brave Josephina was. I imagine that if you're in a situation like that, you are constantly thinking about ways to possibly escape. Now, if you're locked in a basement, there probably aren't many, but it sounds to me like, you know, she was smart. You know, she kind of turned the tables on Gary Haydnick, talking him into doing something that would allow her to escape.

35:23Because as we know, he had talked many women into doing things that would allow him to abduct them. And thankfully, once she was out, she made a break out to that phone called police. It wouldn't surprise me at all if she was so terrified, even being out and not next to him, if she was still under his spell and frightened, you know, if she backed out and just went back to him. I remember in the Elizabeth Smart case, after she was abducted, she was under so much control that she would move around people, you know, with a disguise on, her face covered, and just moved right amongst them instead of trying to run away and contact, you know, an adult police officer or somebody to help her because she was so frightened that he felt that he could even just bring her right out in public and walk her down the street. And she wouldn't do anything. And unfortunately, in her case,

36:23he was right about that. Here, Jessica Fina had the courage to get that phone with them called police and stop this monster once and for all. Well, you know, Josephina was a little older than Elizabeth Smart. I also think that the time frame here, right? She had been with Gary Hydenick for a while, but Elizabeth Smart was kept longer. Yeah, I don't know the exact time frames, but, you know, this being too scared. I can imagine that in a lot of cases, it's gonna be hard for people to even think about screaming for help or running up to a police officer because you've experienced so many horrors at the hands of this person. It's like, you don't know what they're gonna do. Yeah, and I certainly don't mean to shame Elizabeth Smart

37:24as if it was her fault that she didn't escape. I just think, you know, time and time, again, we see some of these monsters that do this stuff, they have so much control over their victim, and they're so powerful that, you know, some of these people that go through these things that are victimized just feel like if they try and escape, things could even worse. After his arrest, Gary Hydenick was held without bail. A second person on alleged accomplice was also arrested and held without bail. This man was Sanders Boyfriend, 31-year-old Cyril Brown, who went by the name Tony. The two men were very close and considered each other best friends. Tony was charged with murder, kidnapping, rape, and conspiracy. He denied having any hand in either the murders, but did admit that he saw Sanders die and also saw parts of her body in Hydenick's bathtub. And shocker, it turns out that Tony was also intellectually disabled and seemed to be suggestible.

38:24One more example of Hydenick praying on intellectually disabled people. Tony was released on $50,000 bail, but didn't have to pay any of it if he continued to show up in court. He became a witness agreeing to cooperate with the investigation. A judge decided he was no longer threat to the public once he wasn't around Gary Hydenick. Gary Hydenick was charged with multiple counts of murder, kidnapping, and rape, as well as aggravated assault, and involuntary, deviate, sexual intercourse. He was denied bail and waited in jail for his day in court. In his cell, Gary Hydenick tried to end his life. Some reports say he tried to hang himself, others say he tried to swallow a lipo, but he survived and eventually the case went to trial. His only shot was to plead not guilty by reason of insanity. It took less than six months for Hydenick to capture seven victims. He might have taken his second victim even sooner

39:27than he did if it hadn't been for Sandra Lindsay's family, watching his home, hoping to spot her coming or going. Follow news of Gary Hydenick's arrest. His own father, Michael Hydenick, who is estranged from and hadn't seen in two decades, didn't feel that his son deserved any mercy. According to UPI.com, his father said, I hope to hell they hang him for what he did. And you can quote me on that. I'll even pull the rope. Okay, all right, you don't hear that all the time. In a lot of instances, you have family who, while they may despise what their loved one did, they still stand behind them. They don't want them to die. Not Gary's dead. You know, he's even willing to pull the rope. Yeah, that's definitely something you don't hear often. If anything, a lot of times, families are accused of being too overly sensitive

40:28or too supportive of their family members when they do heinous things like this. But his father wasn't in that camp. And I wonder, you know, maybe that could tell us something, his lack of caring, if you could call that, at all it seems, maybe that could put some light on Gary Hydenick's childhood. And I mean, that's a whole other ball of wax, probably. While they were estranged, we don't know, you know, all of the details around it. But yeah, I think you could be onto something there. As far as, you know, maybe his dad didn't have a lot of empathy for Gary. Now, it's kind of hard to have empathy for Gary because once the facts come out, whoo, that's, it's gonna be tough. But maybe his dad didn't have empathy even before that. And maybe that's where Gary got it.

41:29I mean, we're speculating here, right? Yeah, and I think in any case like this, you always look in the background of the perpetrators, say, oh my God, what could have caused this? And you start looking down, you know, rabbit holes trying to find anything that might explain these terrible things. And one of the big things that people always look at is, you know, the childhood, the parents, I mean, you gotta do that. You know, we all protect our health, our cars, our phone. But what about your home? You know, it's probably your biggest investment. And when things go wrong, the costs can hit hard in fact. That's where home serve comes in. Because regular homeowners insurance usually doesn't cover a lot of the day to day wear and tear. I'm talking plumbing failures, HVAC breakdowns and electrical issues, you're often on your own for those. Home serve is like a subscription for your home for as little as $4.99 a month. They've got your back. And it's super simple. Choose a plan for your needs and budget. And when something on your plan goes wrong,

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43:33and he was diagnosed with schizophrenia personality disorder during his time in the military. But that is definitely not the same as being actually legally insane. And according to Josephina, Hydnick Brad, that he would get away with his crimes even if he got caught because as he put it, he would quote act crazy for long enough that they would have to let him go. A third psychiatrist, this time, he was testifying for the prosecution. Agreed that Hydnick had schizophrenia but disagreed about his state of mind. Hydnick's attorney, Chuck Peruto, certainly tried to play up appearances in front of the jury, dressing Hydnick in an unkempt manner and letting him go without shaving. He rationalized this action, saying to oxygen.com. If you want to demonstrate that someone is insane, then they got a fucking look insane. Those who knew Hydnick before his arrest noticed the stark difference.

44:33Hydnick's next-door neighbor, Doris Savolka, said, you're making Gary look crazy. He never looked like that. His attorney is making him look like Manson. And to me, Morphe, it's always a very interesting strategy. Right? How does the defense portray the defendant in court? And I'm not saying with words. I mean, what do they have them look like? Because you know all of that is choreographed. It's staged. What they wear. Like you said, he told him not to shave. They might say, hey, don't brush your hair. It's all calculated. Yeah, a lot of times in trials, the attorney wants their defendant to not have to wear an orange jumpsuit and to be clean cut, fresh shave, and a nice suit here. It seems like it was the opposite. It seems like his attorney was trying to make him look a certain way that was maybe not flattering.

45:37Gary Hydnick's attorney painted the dark picture of his childhood. And Hydnick's niece, Shannon Hydnick, told Oxygen.com that his mother and father were really sick parents, and they gave their kids some serious problems. His brother was also receiving disability payments due to mental health issues. So there may be a genetic susceptibility to mental illness here. But again, being mentally ill is not the same thing as being legally insane. And the question remained, did Gary Hydnick know right from wrong? Well, Gary Hydnick and his defense team, PrEP for trial, a lot of attention turned to Josephina Rivera, the victim who called police after escaping. You would think that the attention on her was all good and was praising of her, but that wasn't the case. The surviving victims of Gary Hydnick don't speak of Josephina fondly. She's technically the one who actually killed Debra Dudley.

46:39Agnes Adams, who was kidnapped the day before Hydnick was caught, told CNN, she helped kidnap me. And survivor Lisa Thomas told the Lutro Bulletin, she was the only one not handcuffed. Lisa also said that Josephina would hit her even when Gary Hydnick wasn't home, saying she enjoyed it. According to Jacqueline Askins, Josephina followed their plan to overpower an escape Hydnick by warning him about it. She was also allowed to work clothes and slept in Hydnick's bed instead of the hole in the basement with the others. They ate meals together while the other woman ate dog food, if anything. He even took her out of the house on shopping trips. Gary Hydnick's attorney told Lutro Bulletin, if it were up to him, Josephina would be behind bars. As a co-conspirator, she was never charged, cooperated with the investigation and the prosecution, and maintains that she only did what she had to do to survive

47:39and trick Hydnick into letting his guard down. It's hard to know what to think. Or some of these opinions about Josephina from the women that survived Meredith, was she coerced or terrified into cooperating, or was she somehow a willing participant? The only thing we know for sure is that it was Josephina who called police and it led to Hydnick being stopped and the survivors being free. That's a really tough one. More if you have some of the survivors kind of bad mouthing, Josephina. But I could see a scenario where she is doing what she has to do to survive. And she's also doing some things that obviously in hindsight look very mean or they look brutal to the survivors, but she's doing it to ultimately get Hydnick to trust her enough,

48:40to put her in a situation where she can escape. Yeah, it's a slippery slope because on one hand she is unquestionably the person that helped stop Hydnick, but according to her co-victims, they hold some animosity or held some animosity, at least at one point, about some of the things she did and how she acted. And I don't think any of us would know what we would do if we were in an unimaginable situation like this. The world to survive might make you do some things that you normally wouldn't do. Yeah, absolutely. And I don't look at her the same way that I look at some other people, you know, you look at maybe a partner, a husband, a wife who takes part in the crimes of their spouse. I mean, that's not the situation with Josephina. She was obviously to begin with a victim of Gary Hydnick.

49:44Now, did she enjoy hurting the others or was that a ploy to get Hydnick to trust her? I kind of lean towards the latter. It seems like the jury almost believed the insanity of defense mounted by Hydnick's lawyer, or at least had doubts one way or the other. One juror, Marcel O'Learner, told Oxygen, I just don't know if he was crazier or not, but despite any reservations on July 1, 1988, the jury made its decision in Gary Hydnick's trial. He was found guilty of two counts of murder of the first degree, six counts of kidnapping, five counts of rape, four counts of aggravated assault, and two counts of involuntary divot sexual intercourse. The same jury also recommended the death penalty. Marcelo, the juror who was unsure about Hydnick's actual state of mind, went on to tellfilimag.com. I regret voting for the death penalty. She also said there was no choice the way the law was written. Yeah, I think if I was on that jury more, I too would have questions about this guy state of mind,

50:47but I think it would be hard for me to believe that Gary Hydnick didn't know that what he was doing was wrong. I would have a tough time making that decision. Yeah, I agree with you. I mean, he went through steps. He turned up his TV to drown out sounds that were coming from the basement. You know, he changed these women to the wall because he knew that if they escaped, you know, they would get away and report them. So to me, that says he knows what he's doing is wrong and he has to keep these victims there. So he doesn't get in trouble. So I don't buy the whole defense that he didn't know what he was doing. Gary Hydnick headed to death row and the appeals process began automatically as it does in all capital convictions. But Hydnick didn't want to appeal his conviction or his sentence. Instead, he wanted authorities to hurry up to speed things along. He just wanted to be executed as soon as possible

51:49and get it all over with, even though he maintained his innocence and claimed that he could prove it. At a 1997 hearing, Hydnick told the judge, you people think I committed murders that I have not committed, adding, I resent this kind of shit being done to a disabled veteran. His lawyer said it was very frustrating that Hydnick didn't want to appeal, but he also understood how hard of a time he was having in prison and how difficult every day of his life would be if he spent the rest of it behind bars with the general population. The attorney said it was actually a wise decision to try to expedite the execution. And I believe most people who are convicted, they don't want to die. They don't want to be executed, but there are some who do. They prefer that rather than spending years

52:51and years of their life in prison. And that's a really tough one. Because for me, I hate to see somebody get out from under if you want to call it that, what they're fearing the most. Yeah, I find it pretty ironic that he's doesn't want to deal with being locked up for years for the rest of his life. And he wants to hurry it up. Well, he's the same person that locked up these women against their will and his basement and made them prisoners. You know, that part, you know, I don't have any sympathy at all for him. Yeah, the fact that he doesn't want to be held captive. Right? Even though that's exactly what he did to his victim. Gary Hyden claimed he was making himself into a martyr. According to the Princeton Daily Clarean, he said, I want you to execute an innocent man so there will be no more capital punishment.

53:51His daughter, Maxine filed appeals and motions on her own trying to prolong her father's life. The appeals process and all the preparation took a year, which he spent behind bars, but for a death penalty case, it did speed along. However, just hours before his scheduled execution in April 1997, a state of execution was granted. From what we can gather, third party attorneys filed on Hyden's behalf based on the idea that he may not be mentally competent. These attorneys were against the death penalty in general. The death warrant expired, but eventually the state's Supreme Court found him competent. A new death warrant was issued. 55-year-old Gary Michael Hyden was executed on July 6, 1999. He died by lethal injection. He didn't say anything when he had the chance to make a final statement. Josephina did not attend the execution as a witness and would have preferred a life sentence for Hyden.

54:51She told oxygen.com, it would have been better for him to sit in a four by four cell. Jacqueline Askins, Hydenix, last kidnapping victim, also did not attend. The two along with other surviving victims weren't allowed to witness the execution because according to the Philadelphia inquirer, by law, only the survivors of murder victims are eligible to be there in person. Sandra Lindsay's sister Tracy Lomax did attend, but didn't find any satisfaction or closure. She told oxygen.com, he never looked at us, never acknowledged us, never said he was sorry. He didn't say anything. He didn't even look in our direction. And there's a couple of things here for me more. Number one, I found it very interesting that victims' family members were allowed to attend but not surviving victims.

55:52Thought that was very interesting. And then also, I feel the same way as Josephina. I think it would have been better. It would have been harder for Gary to sit in a small cell for the rest of his life, just based on the fact that he tried to speed up the death penalty part. He didn't want that. That was his biggest fear. And so obviously that would have been a more apt punishment in this situation. There's an endless debate about the death penalty, whether it's justified, whether it's humane, that's a subject for another day. But a lot of families, they prefer that the person's not executed because on one hand, they might think they're getting away with an easier outcome and not having to think about what they've done behind bars. And then sometimes they're just against the death penalty, whatever the reason, but it's a real,

56:56a tough situation to be in as a family member of a murder victim, this end process when it comes, there's no remorse, there's no, I'm sorry, just nothing. And that doesn't surprise me one bit, right? I know the family went there hoping for something like that, but I think with a guy like Gary Hydnick, there was little to no chance, they were gonna get any of that and they did. It's interesting to note that Gary Hydnick was the last person to be executed in the state. His execution was the end of capital punishment in Pennsylvania. This isn't likely to change anytime soon. The current governor of Pennsylvania, Josh Shapiro, announced in 2023 that he would not sign any deathwards, meaning there would be no executions while he was in office. The character Buffalo Bill in the science of the Lambs was reportedly heavily inspired by Gary Hydnick along with a few other killers. These on screen depictions of real murders adds to the feeling that this kind of thing

57:57only happens in movies, but as we're sadly seeing more and more, things like this really did happen in real life and they're still happening today. As for Gary Hydnick's house of horrors located at 3520 North Marshall Street in North Philadelphia, it still stands there now, a gruesome reminder of the terrible things that once happened there. And that's kind of shocking to me, right? You and I have done many, many cases where somebody had a house of horrors, we'll call it, whether it's Dommer's apartment or the case we just talked about last week with the horses. One infamous house right now is the one where the Utah college students were murdered, but normally more in the stories that we talk about, those houses are torn down. They're tough reminders for people. So it shocks me that this house is still standing

59:00and who in the world lives there? Yeah, you think that this would be something that would tear it down and maybe turn into a park, maybe some kind of facility to help develop mentally disabled people, something along those lines, but now they left it there and someone I presume lived there. And it makes me wonder when they moved in, did they know that this place was the home of all this terrible stuff or were they unaware of it? And maybe they're living there now and have no idea. Yeah, I know different states have different real state laws, but a lot of states you do have to disclose certain things. And one of them in many states is that a murder occurred there or something along those lines. But as we wrap this case up, I don't think there's any doubt that Gary Hydenick is up there, right? When you talk about some of the worst individuals, he's got to be on that list.

1:00:02I mean, when you have these really high profile scary movies, kind of basing some of their characters around you, okay, you were a scary individual. And this guy definitely was. I think there's a ton of reasons to despise Gary Hydenick. One of them being, as we talked about, right? He prayed on some of the most vulnerable in our population, people with developmental or intellectual disabilities. I mean, his crimes would have been horrible regardless, but in a way, I feel like that makes them that much worse that he committed a lot of his crimes against people who had those types of disabilities. And then I just keep going back to this kind of pit

1:01:04in the basement and how scary that must have been for these individuals. And it's amazing that some of these women made it out a lot. They survived. Yeah, I only hope that maybe today, all these years later, I hope that they have received help counseling support of some kind and I hope that our lives are, they're leading the lives of the best they can now. And the last thing I'll say because I did have this thought, what happens if Josephina is not able to talk Gary into, kind of given her a little bit of freedom to the point where she can escape, I mean, how many more victims does he have? I don't think there's any way that this guy just all of a sudden stops what he's doing. And that makes me wonder, is it possible there were other victims somewhere along the way that we just don't know about?

1:02:05Yeah, I always have that question. But at the end of the day, Gary Hydnick was just a monster, pure and simple. But that's it for our episode on Gary Hydnick. As always, if you love the show, but you haven't done so yet, take a minute, go out, leave us a review, a rating. Also, keep telling your friends about the podcast, where the mouth really helps us out. If you want to find us on social media, we're on every major platform, just search for criminology podcast on your favorites. And for news about the show, old episodes and more, head over to criminologypodcast.com. And finally, if you want to join a discussion about the podcast in the cases we discuss, head over to Facebook and search for criminology podcast, discussion and fans. So that's it for another episode of criminology. But morph and I will be back with all of you next Saturday night with a brand new episode. So until then for my and morph, we'll talk to you next week. Take care, everyone.