Hour 1: TERRORISM THEN AND NOW: The intelligence failures that taught us painful lessons

0:00And good morning on this 25th anniversary of the terror attacks of 9-11. For I kind of been in my head all day, I started out this morning when I'm normally on at 5am, and had listeners remembering where were you when it happened. And since then, my brain has just been pulling all of these detailed memories from that day, from the depths of the cortex, and I've really almost been reliving it. And honestly, I think that's a good thing. I think it is important that we remember, and that for those of us who are too young to remember, those what, 32 and younger, who either aren't old enough to remember, or weren't even born when terrorists attacked us on our own soil, and the fur for the first time in any American's lifetime, we got a feeling of what it's like to have a war at home,

1:04which none of us had ever experienced before. I think it's good that we remember. I think it's good that we take stock of where we are, that we understand where we've come from, and make sure that where we're going is where we want to go, and that we are not exposed and vulnerable, and that we are safe. So I want to talk to you today. This hour and next hour, we're going to be talking a lot about the state of international terrorism in this world, and what efforts here in the United States, since 9-11, have been successful in preventing any other large-scale terror attacks, like those 25 years ago today, and to help us appreciate where we are and where we're going, I think we need to realize how we got here. Joining us now is adjunct professor at Tulane Craig Wiles,

2:08Morning Professor. Good morning, Dave. I appreciate the opportunity to share some time with you on this important topic. Yeah, I'm glad you're here. I watched recently the docu-drama on Netflix called the Bombing of Pan Am 103, and I don't remember a lot from when that actually happened, when international terrorists for the first time blew up an aircraft, and the impact that it had as they killed everyone on board, and some people on the ground in Lockerby, Scotland, and the many, many years of investigation and prosecution that followed, and actually are continuing to this day. But that was the first taste that most Americans really got because of all the US citizens who were on board that plane in most of our lifetimes of what international terrorism felt like, and then we would all find out 25 years ago on 9-11.

3:11So let's kind of start with a history, if you would, of international terrorism, as we know it now. How did this come to be that instead of wars being fought between countries, we got to a point where we had these different ideals being waged as wars now, through individuals, some of them willing to give their own lives to take other lives in support of their cause, and where aircraft and then other large public spaces became the targets. Yeah, and those are very good points, and absolutely it was, so 190 Americans died on that flight, including 35th University of Syracuse students who were returning home for Christmas from studying abroad. It represented a pivotal moment truly in the evolution of modern terrorism, quite handling. Yeah, the terrorist attack that crossed multiple international borders and

4:12involved state-linked actors, exploited the aviation system, what needed to enhancements that were required for safety of aviation, and required unprecedented multinational international investigation. We found in that particular case an aircraft as simple as leaving Heathrow, flying to New York with a number of folks coming to the United States to celebrate Christmas. After 40 minutes in the air, a bomb detonated in an alarm clock in a piece of luggage that was placed on the aircraft in Malta, transitioned in Frankfurt, the Heathrow, and then on the flight 103. It was listed under the name of Michael Bernstein, who was not a passenger,

5:15listed passenger on any of those flights, and this was an unaccompanied bag that was transitioned. Even the FBI will tell you that investigation was a game changer. It demonstrated that terrorism had become truly international. It was at that time a major attack against Americans, before 9-11. It represented an era of state-sponsored terrorism, Libya, and then as we know now, as a matter of fact, the third defendant has a status hearing on September 15th. And that particular defendant is who they are suggesting they be in the FBI was the bomb maker, Olivia Intelligent Officer. And this was in 1988, that this plane blew up, and we still have seen only one trial, one conviction, one acquittal, and still another suspect still awaiting trial.

6:41Depping Stone for international investigations, it was a truly a global effort. Number of countries were involved in this investigation. I led to a successful prosecution. 5,000 individuals participated in the crime scene, and considered the crime scene was over 850 miles. Imagine that. It was the largest crime scene to date. Yeah, the plane blew up at what, 30,000 feet. Yes, sure, that is correct. There were about the end victims ran down over a very large area. Absolutely. It was one soldier, and they had been directed, and I'm talking about those that were participating in the walk through the crime scene. They had been directed. If it does not appear as if it's grown from the Earth, collected, considered evidence. And that's what they did. They found a circuit board, and they were able to track the circuit board back to a company that had made those circuit boards. And identified that only 20 of those circuit

7:42boards had been made, and they were all made for the Olivia and government. So they were able to continue that investigation after 10,000 interviews in a number of states, and identify that circuit board was in an alarm clock that was in a piece of luggage. So a lot of due diligence, a lot of commitment, and a lot of effort, as it has allowed us to put us in a position we are today, and that is the bomb maker who is in U.S. custody. We hope to see some type of judicial resolution. That really did change everything, though, didn't it? And by the way, folks, the Netflix, Dr. Drama, is a great watch. It's a difficult watch, but it really did give me some perspective, because I was not at the time aware of what was happening, and enabled to consume that. So now having that knowledge and a better understanding of it, of how we saw that first

8:47international act of deadly terror, 13 years before 9-11, or 12 years, I guess, before 9-11, is that's kind of where it started. How did we get from there to Al Qaeda training their soldiers around the world, and creating these sleeper cells here in the United States to a point where they could then take over aircraft and crash them into the Twin Towers, the Pentagon, and wherever the fourth plane was headed before the passengers crashed it so that more death didn't occur. How did we get from the Pan Am bombing to the attacks of 9-11? Yeah, I know that that's a good question, because Lockaby wasn't the end of the story. In fact, it was a warning about where terrorism was going. We went from Lockaby, and in 1993, we went to the

9:49first bombing of the World Trade Center in 1998, the US embassies in Kenyan, Tanzania, 2000 USS Cole, where we were warned by a Somal bin Laden. He said, hey, listen, the United States, basically you're not, I'm not getting your attention, as he was leading Al Qaeda, and in their efforts to remove the United States and Western civilization from Muslim countries. And then he pushed forward, and with a budget of roughly $400,000, it's been suggested, with 19 terrorists, caused what we know today to be the probably the most dramatic attack on the United States, and global international partners. There wasn't just Americans that died in the World Trade Center. It impacted a number of countries. So the message was clear, and that's what they were pushing for.

10:50Is we want to get your attention. We want to change the current state of affairs, and we want to do that by causing fear and causing anxiety. And I guess it really comes down to without oversimplifying it. Why is? Why do people become terrorists? What are these organizations going after? Political grievances, religious extremism, revenge, in some cases, perceived injustice, some type of self-identity, that designate political objectives, create power, retaliation. I mean, the reasons are many. And the reality is a grievance that necessarily terrorism. An ideology is a necessarily terrorism. Terrorism unfortunately evolves into violence or a threat of violence, and it's used to intimidate

11:56our course. And the realities are that terrorism from Lakobi to where we are today, they haven't truly gone away. We can go after the heads of these organizations, but unless we specifically target the organization and continue to chase that organization in utilizing all investigative tools available and dismantling these organizations, I don't know, Dave, if we can ever eliminate terrorism. You know, we talked about how the intense investigation into the Pan Am bombing over Lakobi really fundamentally changed the makeup of investigatory practices by our federal government and governments around the world. And we saw vast improvements in the way things were investigated. But clearly, what we didn't see were vast improvements in our early warning systems, in our red flag detection, in our ability to identify threats before they could

13:03carry out plots. We all know now that Osama bin Laden was able to get his operatives into the United States. He was able to embed them in communities across the country, even to a point where they were able to take pilots flying lessons. And even though an FBI agent was made aware that these individuals who would eventually lead the terror attacks on 9-11 had taken pilot flying lessons, but said they didn't need the part of the lesson on how to land the plane. And even though that information went to the FBI, it was never acted on and it was too late by the time the pieces were put together. So have we since 9-11 improved our homeland security, our federal government's investigatory early warning system to a point where are we still vulnerable to these kinds of

14:06attacks? Because as you said, the ideology is never going to go away. So that means they're always going to want to kill us. Yeah, no, that's a good point, Dave. And yeah, there were a number of lessons learned from 9-11. First and foremost, the biggest lesson was quite candidly, information is useless and less shared. So as a law enforcement community, we have become much better at doing just that. Specifically, the FBI has formed over 200 joint terrorism task forces. And these joint terrorism task forces located throughout the United States working a state and local agencies working with international partners have disrupted organizations or cells prior to actioning of some type of terrorist event. We have seen those. These arrests come and they go. But a couple

15:08of tools that they continue to try to monitor and they continue to try to work towards is that the internet, quite candidly, the recruitment for these organizations has changed dramatically. The internet and what you can find on social media. I mean, they in them themselves have become the strongest recruitment point. And we found that, right? We found that right here in our own city. The greatest counterterrorism challenge today probably is for these terrorist organizations and the fact that they can identify individuals without truly having to contact them, without having to interact with them. We found that in the New Orleans New York New Year's Eve Day attacker as an example. He was influenced by ISIS propaganda and ideology without ever traveling to meet anybody in particular for a recruitment drive. So to your point, the saying you see something, say something,

16:17truly is as important today as it ever has been. We have a number of changes with the recruitment. It's going to come down to community effort. It's going to come down to all of us taking a part in prevention. And I think that's, if nothing else today, I think that's the message we've got to share is that there are still people around the world who want to kill us, who want to destroy America and Americans. And we have to be not only aware of that, but involved. And I think that's why it's important that we talk about this today, especially with the younger people who didn't live through 9-11 or don't remember it because they weren't old enough, that we still have to be vigilant at all times. So this never happens again. Professor Craig Wiles, adjunct professor at Tulane,

17:18thanks for sharing some time with us on this 25th anniversary of the September 11th terror attacks. Thank you, Dave, and my thoughts and prayers to the many out there that are continuing to suffer from those from the cancer from the rock. God bless. God bless. Thank you, Craig Wiles. I'm Dave Cohen coming up next hour. I'm clearing the guests lists and we're just going to talk to you in the 11 o'clock hour about how you feel on this day, what you remember on this day. And if you feel safe as an American now, and if you feel like we are at a point where we can trust and rely on each other to report what we hear and see and know about and on our government to act on that information and keep us safe. We'll do that next hour. Coming up after this, where it talks to a man from New Orleans who took matters into his own hands after 9-11

18:19with some of the people he worked with and jumped into action. We'll do that after this as we remember 9-11 25 years ago today here on WWL. It was 25 years ago today that terrorists commandeered airplanes in the United States and launched the first attack in any of our lifetimes against Americans on American soil to that extent. It was overwhelming. It was it made me as an individual and I was here on the radio at the time watching it unfold live and describing it on the air. And it made me feel more vulnerable than I'd ever felt before as an American. And I don't know that I've ever had a scarier moment in my life outside of

19:21individual family related things, but as an American, I've never been more scared in my life than I was at that moment when I realized that they were attacking us and they were successfully killing thousands and thousands of us. And we didn't know what was going to happen next. We didn't know how many sleeper cells were about to come on week. We didn't know where the next attack was going to come from. And it made us, here in America, feel a way we had never felt before. You know, it had been the Revolutionary War since we had a war on our soil from a foreign fighting force. We had the Civil War, but none of us were alive for either of those. All the wars were always over there. And suddenly it was here. We'll share more of our thoughts

20:25and we'll talk about it next hour. A lot of people jumped into action in the wake of the 9-11 terror attacks, including Billy Shanks, who joins us now on the live line. Billy is a retired district chief from the New Orleans Fire Department. Hey, Billy. Hey, how's it going? You know, I'm more in my thoughts and emotions and feelings today than I thought I was going to be. I don't know what it is about the 25th, but it's really gotten me. How you doing? I'm doing fine. You know, 25 years ago, just like everybody else, I saw what was going on on television. And being a firefighter, it was devastating to see fireman walking in that building as it was coming down. And that's when me and some of the guys on rescue, David Nick, Joe Canfield and Robert Torez decided we needed to go to New York to go do

21:32whatever we could to help our brothers out. And so we made the trip up there. You know, it was a few weeks after because we had to make arrangements to get up there, but it was it was an unbelievable trip. So here you are watching it unfold. Were you on duty or off duty on 9-11? I was off duty that day. I was getting ready to go on my side job and my wife came outside and called me and said, you got to come see what's going on in New York on the news. And I didn't go on my side job that day. I just stayed glued to the TV. And then I just started making phone calls about, you know, I told my wife at that time. I said, I got to go up there. So you and your co-workers develop this idea that becomes a plan that you then you put into action.

22:40Then I'm really going to go up there, but you're going to take fire apparatus. And you're going to go up there because obviously they had lost so much of what they had in New York because all companies responded to the towers as they were being attacked and before they came down. So suddenly now they are not just personnel, but equipment too. We're very compromised for the New York Fire Department. So tell us how that unfolded and what you guys did and what the trip was like getting there and what happened when you got there. Well, I reached out to Chef Emil Lagasse because a personal friend of mine and he had ties with the New York Fire Department with them coming on his show. So he gave me a phone number to a gentleman in the union up there who I reached out to. And the first thing out of his mouth was, thank God you call, we need

23:43you up here. Now what they wanted us to do was to stand in at funerals because he said usually we have five to ten thousand men at a fireman funeral. He said we had 343 men die. And so we'd like you all to come up here and stand in at the funerals. We'd like you to go visit fire houses. That's what we did. And you know, just us four guys that feel like we made a big impact up there because we would go to these funerals and after these funerals, they would have like a like a celebration of life. And we didn't talk to these guys about 9-11. We talked to them or any other subject. And if they wanted to open up, they would open up. That we had these guys

24:47laughing and smiling probably for the first time in weeks. And it was amazing. It was to the point where these guys were asking us, hey, can y'all come stay at our firehouse? And just because they wanted somebody there to support them and something other than the devastation. Talk about something other than the devastation. And that's what we did. And so I was happy we could make an impact on these guys. You know, if anyone knows how to turn a funeral into a celebration of those who have died, it's Norellineans. I mean, we have the tradition here of the jazz funeral that begins as the dirge, but ends in the second line of dancing and celebrating. And what a great

25:47gift that you could bring from New Orleans to New York to help these firefighters, their families, and their fallen brothers and sisters to realize that it's okay to celebrate their lives not only more in their deaths. Exactly. Exactly. And we brought things up there to these guys. We cooked for them. We helped out in any kind of way. And you know, the biggest impact was like about a week after we got back, I had one of the union guys called me up and he said out of the thousands of people that came up here, he said, I don't know what you four guys did. He said that we've gotten more phone calls about the New Orleans guys. He said, I said, we didn't

26:48do anything. We just went into the front of these guys and gave them a hug and sat down and just talked to them about anything they wanted to talk about. We were an ear to them and we would add to support and give them a hug. And that impact lasted to four years later when we had like 700 New York firemen that signed up to come to New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina. They remembered you guys? Oh yes. Yes. I had guys from the fire department call me up. The night before Hurricane Katrina telling me that they want to come down and help in any kind of way. And this was the night before Katrina. And you know, you know how New Orleans are. We're going to

27:49be all right. Just a storm. But they all came down here and supported us. Yeah. Some great, great stories of friendship, camaraderie, and just doing the little things in the aftermath of an unbelievable tragedy. Billy Shanks, thanks. Thank you to you. Are the other three guys still with us? Yes, they are. One of them is still on a job. Wow. Which one is that? David Nick. All right. And what are the other two names? Tell me again. Robert Torres and Joe Canfield. Well, thank you to Billy, David, Robert, and Joe, for being the New Orleans guys. For even though you packed your gear and thought you were going to go up there and help them fight fires, you helped them fight far better causes than that. And you really clearly, the New Orleans guys, as you said, they referred to you, played in a very important

28:53role in helping the men and women of the fire department up there in New York. I'm glad that we could talk to you on this anniversary. 11. You're very welcome. Anything else you want to share before we let you run, Billy? Yeah, I just want to share with everybody. I just want everybody to remember the lives that will last that day. The first responders, the police department. I want you all to remember that we were together at that point in time as a country. And we need to come together again. And go give a go give a firefighter or a policeman a hug today. And I think that'll go a long way with the first responders. Billy, thank you so much for what you did and what you've done. And for joining us here 25 years later, you know, I thought for the last several years, 9-11, it felt like a distant memory. It felt like a piece of history. But for some reason today,

29:55and I don't know about for you, but for me, the brain has brought everything right back to the forefront and feels like it was just yesterday. Yes, it has. It's hard to believe who's 25 years ago. Thank you, Billy. We appreciate you. All right. I'm Dave Cohen, Infernoal Normand, 2,977 people died in the September 11th, 2001 terror attacks. And the 19 hijackers. And thank God for the people on that plane that they took down in the field in Pennsylvania, because otherwise that number would be even higher, whether they were going to the White House, the US Capitol, the Sears Tower, wherever they were headed. Those passengers on that plane having learned what had happened to the others made the ultimate sacrifice and made sure that plane could not be used as a weapon,

30:59even though they knew they would die in taking it down. Gonna open up the lines after this 504-260-1870. Let's just talk. Like Billy said, he did with the firefighters up in New York. Let's just talk on this 25th anniversary. If you want to tell me where you were, what's your thought? Where we are now, we'll begin the conversation after this on this anniversary of the 9-11 terror attacks on WWL. It's great talking to Billy Shanks about him and his colleagues going up to New York after 9-11. And it reminded me of, remember the spirit of Louisiana Fire Truck that the state of Louisiana sent up there, built for the New York Fire Department to help them out after 9-11. And then they and hundreds of New York firefighters came back down here with it after Katrina. Just a couple of the examples. There were so many others, of firefighters from around this region, of others locally who went up there just to cook

32:05for the folks impacted by 9-11 to just create massive pots of gumbo or whatever it was. And to feed everyone up there. And just the outpouring of love from New Orleans to New York, from Louisiana to the state of New York was unprecedented, unreal, and really heartwarming. And brought out some of the best that we have ever seen. Bronson, thanks for calling. You're on WWL 25 years after the 9-11 attacks. Hey, Bronson. Yes, this is Bronson. I was down in the quarter while all the electricity was off. I remember the first time it came back on. Everybody was excited. It was about 30 days after the storm. But then all of a sudden it went off again. And then all these fire trucks started coming. The electrical system at Hotel Sight be air was sort of a mess at that time and they had a fire. Well, the address of the hotel Sight be air is 9-11 for Gandhi Street. And after they put it out and everything, the New York firemen who

33:10also responded to the call were just sort of in shock, just standing around that, reminding them so much of their 9-11. Wow. Yeah. What a way to bring things full circle. Dr. Bronson, Lewis with us here on WTWL. We certainly had a large contingent of them down here. They were also, I believe, responsible for guarding the New Orleans Museum of Art, if I recall correctly, but so nice to have them here. Yeah. And then it is great, the relationships that we build out of tragedies, isn't it, that when we're in the worst of times, we find the best in people and we do come to each other's aid and side and help. Dr. Lutz, let me ask you this. Here we are 25 years later. First of all, where were you on 9-11? 25 years ago today? I was sitting in a courtroom in Oklahoma. I was testifying in a trial up there about a infection that a woman got after a breasted

34:15plant. And it was in federal court because she was an Indian. And they announced that they had been a lot of problems and the world power had been hidden right after my testimony. They closed down the court as well as every other court building. I was able to get your ride over to St. Louis because of course all the flights were closed and stayed with a friend over there in St. Louis until I was able to rent a car and drive back to New Orleans. Wow. Yeah. So here you are in a federal courthouse and we know that all of those buildings were evacuated as it was becoming clear that we were under attack and every plane and helicopter in the world had been grounded because we didn't know which ones were a threat and which ones weren't. So wow, you got a heavy dose of the impacts of 9-11 not being able to fly home after being evacuated from a federal courthouse in Oklahoma.

35:17And President's plane was in the air and what their room were about another plane that made it back to the Middle East or something that was allowed to take off. Well of course, yeah Air Force 1 they put the president on a plane because they didn't know where the next attack was coming or where it was safe for the president to be. So yeah Air Force 1 along with a number of fighter jets were in the air. They eventually landed at Barxdale Air Force Base in Shreveport to refuel and to decide what to do next another Louisiana connection. I think the president was in Florida when that happened. So I guess they went from Florida to Louisiana Air Base. Yeah, they kind of just kind of wandered around in the air for a while because I guess they thought that was the safest place for them to be. How do you feel now 25 years later? Do you feel? I mean because on that day, I don't know about you, but I felt like I'd never felt before. I felt vulnerable to the kinds of things we had seen around the globe, the kind of things we had heard and read about in history. For the first time

36:21in my life, I felt like, oh my God, we, I, my family could be killed in an act of terrorism, an act of war. And I'd never ever worried about that before. Me either, Dave, and every time I go through on a flight now and go through the TSA line, I think about it, and I look at the huge expensive ball there and how much that has caused our country. And then I look at what happens during the COVID outbreak and what preventive measures are we taking to prevent another virus from coming in, maybe even more potent from COVID. And it's a minuscule amount of money compared to the last two months, not 12. Props and loos, thanks for joining us here on W.W.L. He called in. I want you to call in at 504-260-1870. For the next hour, I just want to talk. How do you feel now about national terrorism? Are we doing enough? Where were you on that day? Let's just chat about it here

37:27on W.W.L. You think we're safe from international terrorism now? It's been 25 years since we've had a large-scale terror attack on our own soil. Clearly, we've had others inspired by international terrorists, specifically here in New Orleans, among them, attempt or carry out attacks. Do you feel safe now? I think it's important we talk about this today. So we make sure we don't forget what it was like and that we educate those who don't even remember to make sure this never happens again. We're open in the lines to chat next hour.