How to Accept What You Can’t Change Without Giving Up | Jane Ratcliffe

0:00I will share all the dark places and then I will always say I'm also okay because I'm always okay. I say that all the time. I'm okay. I'm always okay. Welcome to the one you feed. Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have, quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think, ring true, and yet for many of us our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self-pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction. How they feed their good wolf.

1:04Jane Ratcliffe will tell her friends the darkest things that are happening to her, but then she always adds the same line. But I'm also okay. This makes me laugh because I will do the same thing. I'll describe that I'm really struggling but I always tack on, but I'm okay. In our conversation though, she stopped and surprised herself. Sometimes she wishes she weren't always okay. Being okay is how she got through what she calls the terror years after she suffered a traumatic brain injury, and it is also why for decades she didn't ask for the help she needed. I know that territory very well. So there's the okayness I've actually built which is real, and then there's the part of me that needs you to see me as okay. And from the outside, and often sometimes even inside they look the same. I'm Eric Zimmer and this is the one you feed. Push your limits, train with precision, see the results. At Equinox, that's high performance living. Iconic spaces that inspire personal training backed by real data, unlimited group fitness

2:05classes from yoga and Pilates to strength and conditioning. Elevate your post-performance ritual with sauna's, steam rooms, cold plunges, and more. Everything you need to lock in and unlock your potential at Equinox. Start today at equinox.com. Comcast reaches more than 65 million homes and businesses with the nation's most intelligent network, powered by AI and designed to optimize every connection in real time. And that really matters when millions are tuning in for the biggest live events. With ultra low latency and the capacity to handle massive demand, Comcast helps deliver every moment in stunning 4K, so viewers stay close to the action without missing a minute. Learn more at ComcastCorporation.com slash network. Hi, Jane. Welcome to the show. Hi, Eric. Thank you for having me. I am very happy to have you on. You have a wonderful substat called Beyond, where you do your own writing, you interview people, you write a lot about craft. I was fortunate enough to do both,

3:11work on an essay or a piece with you and also be able to talk about the writing process. So for anybody who's curious about how writers write, it's probably the best resource out there I've seen. So we'll be talking about all the things that are in your substat, but we'll start like we always do with the parable. And in the parable, there's a grandparent who's talking with a grandchild, they say in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love. And the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandchild stops, they think about it for a second, they look up at their grandparent and they say, well, which one wins? And the grandparent says the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do. Well, I actually have a direct memory with that parable because it's very hard to explain my

4:17whole health history. But at one point, I lived in New York City for 25 years, but 10 years of that, I was struggling with health from head and brain injury. And then I moved back to Michigan, where I'm from. And when I moved back here, things got considerably worse. And those early years, I referred to as the terror years because I really was in pretty much nonstop terror with all the things that were happening in my body. And at some point in there, I can't remember who it was, but there was one of the practitioners who was helping me shared that parable with me because I had said to them, I have this part of me that believes I'm going to fully heal, that believes in myself, that is still very joyful, that is still full of gratitude. And I can feel all of that. I haven't lost that. And then there's this other part of me that is absolutely terrified by all the

5:19things that are happening in my body. And I don't know how these two can coexist. Like it scares me. And then they share that parable. And so that's actually, I love that is kind of the cornerstone of your show because that has a lot of meaning for me. And I feel like that has never left to me, those two coexisting. And that actually I have been very lucky. I don't know why that the part that in the midst of all these health issues I faced, which I no longer in the terriers and haven't been for a while, the imprint of those years is with me. But even now, I do still struggle. And I've never lost that part of the joy and the pleasure and the gratitude. And I'm so grateful because I don't truly don't know what would have happened to me if I hadn't had the good wolf. So do you feel like you had to cultivate that good wolf? Or do you feel like it's just

6:25it was part of you that just kept popping back up? It was part of me. And it didn't even pop back up. It was just constantly there. I have no idea why none. It just feel like incredibly lucky that it's been with me. The closest I've ever come to figuring out maybe what it's a part of is my parents grew up in London during World War II and you know, they were bombed and they were very poor. And I feel like that is sort of resilience. And what I'm talking about the good wolf isn't necessarily resilience because it's much more joyful than that. But also the way they got through the war was community was each other was always helping was always really turning towards hope. So I don't know if I just kind of genetically inherited some of that from them. And again, I don't even know those are exactly the same thing. But otherwise I do not know why I have this

7:31part of myself, but I feel incredibly lucky that I do. So if we go back before the traumatic brain injury, tell us a little bit about your life then, you know, what you did. And also to what degree was this spirit we're talking about evident then? Oh, that's a very good question. I don't know that I was aware of it then. You know, I grew up in Michigan, but I moved to New York when I was 19 in the early 80s. And then I did live there for 25 years. I mean, I was always someone who was very, very active. My personality was go, go, do, do. I was just always going and doing. And I was writing. I had a ton of friends. I boxed. I ate as most New Yorkers. I ate all my meals out except for breakfast. But I would eat like lunches every single dinner out. I was always again, the early years. I was always at clubs. I was really into music. We definitely share the

8:35music connection. I was always at clubs. I was married then and my husband was a musician. So, you know, we were always out and about in New York. And then as I got older, less so of that. But yeah, at the gym and just always doing things that dramatically changed. And then school was a part of it. But that dramatically changed with the injury. I don't know if I knew about this part of myself. It's really funny because I personally would never describe myself as like optimistic or a positive person. But this is how people always describe me to me. And I can only imagine that they're talking about that part. So it sounds like you were very active. That part of you maybe just was able to fully express itself. And so it just did. So you have this traumatic brain injury. And walk us through because I think there's sort of two phases here, right? There's the injury.

9:39There's a little bit of time after. Then there's a precipitous turn for the worst a little bit later. Yeah. I feel like if I try to talk you through the whole journey, like very carefully, we'd be here for hours. Give us the two in a version. It's been very up and down. The injury happened about 30 years ago. I was in a furniture showroom. And there was a gigantic tabletop mounted on the wall. And the rope broke and it fell in my head. And it's almost impossible to remember. And a lot of people, maybe too young to even remember the days before very little was known about head and brain injury. Right. Right. So this happened then. I always says before the football players were all over the news, the football players changed my life dramatically for the better. So I did not get proper care then. And that is the root of everything that I still live with. I think if this same injury happened now, I would not have ended up with all these complications. But I didn't really get any care.

10:45And then because I did see a doctor, but he didn't do an MRI. He didn't do a CAT scan. He didn't even do an X-ray, which now of course were all like, right? What? Exactly. But then nobody knew, you know, like I am all very insightful wise intelligent friends. And I'm intelligent. And none of us were like, why didn't he do an MRI CAT scan or X-ray? I did have like staggering head pain. Like, I can't even say headache. It was so beyond a headache for four months then. And I kept telling the doctor, he was like, it's fine. I'll go away. It did go away. So I thought everything was okay. And then I think it was like a year and a half later, the pain came back. And this is just beyond description. And then I did start getting care. I went to see Dr. Gottlin, who was the head of sports medicine at Mount Sinai. And he was the sports doctor for the Knicks and the Yankees and for a bunch of boxers.

11:49So he really knew head injury. He started me on like acupuncture and cranial sacral. Before that, I had seen the NYU doctors, like a team and they wanted to cut out part of my neck. And I was like, no. So I was very glad to find Dr. Gottlin. Then in those are still the New York years. And my health then is very in and out of debilitating pain. I came out of that. I think I was out of it for a year. So I went back in. There were some of the other symptoms that then came to plague me in Michigan. I can look back now and see that they were starting. But at the time, I wasn't really focused on those. But then when I moved back to Michigan, because it was a bit of a jink quite well, my parents were getting older. I thought it would be nice to have a house back garden. Like so you're back. And that's when I went down really hard. And that's what I call the terror years. The symptoms, they're just awful. Like everything for three and a half years, I had flipping and spinning

12:53vertigo every day. I could barely sleep because of the vertigo, but also because of other things who are going on. And I couldn't drive. I couldn't do anything. I had non-stop racing heart. I was back in the debilitating pain. I mean, I could go on and on the whole list of symptoms. And it was absolutely terrifying. And for reasons I will never understand. In New York, the doctors treated me like, you have serious head and brain injury. And the reason I say both is the head injury caused all these alignment issues, which is part of what I struggle with. And the blow also injured my brain, which is like the cognitive one. So that's why I say head and brain issue. For some reason in New York, all the doctors acknowledge the head and brain injury. When I came to Michigan, even though I'm bringing, because now I do have CAT scans and I'm right, they were treating me like I had generalized anxiety disorder. So now I'm like battling doctor. I'm just on top of being in like terror. It was

13:57awful. It was just a really, really awful time in my life. I forgotten what your actual question was. But no, this is the basics. So then jump us till now. Like, you know, in general, last few years, impacts the repercussions that you kind of live with now. I do still have symptoms. There's like four symptoms that I'm still struggling with. I healed beyond what, you know, doctors, Western doctors were telling me because they did finally find doctors who were like, oh, yes, you know, this is what you have. And they were telling me I was only going to get worse. And I was like, no. So what helped me the most was Chinese medicine. And in fact, the first doctor I found helped me so much. I thought it was going to be completely well within six to nine months, but that did not happen. So a lot of those symptoms did heal. I no longer in staggering head pain. I no longer have the flipping and spinning vertigo. But I do have other things that I struggle with every day.

14:57My life really revolves around care. Either self care or going to practitioners. And it's hard. My life is shrunk a lot. I'm way more isolated than I ever used to be. Yeah. I mean, sometimes quite frankly, I'm sort of shocked at what my life is like now. But having said that, that piece we were talking about earlier is still very much with me. And there is so much good in my life. There's so much good in my life. So I guess it is that constant balance. We all face our version of which way are you looking in this particular moment? Chris teases me often that I will eat the same meal over and over and over and I'll wear the same

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17:02I N C dot com slash feed. When I was in ninth grade, I started working at a restaurant right next to my high school. And I was there every single morning before class because I was obsessed with cinnamon toast that they had. I never got tired of it. So when Kachava came out with cinnamon French toast flavor, I was going to try it no matter what. And it is delicious. It tastes like the thing I remember and it's made with real cinnamon bark, which is probably why I love Kachava because with two scoops, I get complete nutrition that my body needs. 25 grams of protein lots of fiber, greens and so much more. There's no artificial flavors, colors or sweeteners. It tends to be the perfect mid afternoon pick me up and it tides me over to dinner. Treat yourself to a childhood favorite. Go to kachava.com and use code feed for 15% off your first order. That's kachava.com code feed. That's kachava.com code feed. Well, I love about your writing on this subject. You're

18:07a beautiful writer to start with. So listen to you. Definitely check that out because you're a beautiful writer. But you exemplify very well what I think is a common challenge that we have. You just sort of hit it a little bit like good wolf bad wolf. What am I going to get attention to? But there's another fundamental challenge that sits at the heart of difficulty in our lives, I think. And it's to what degree do I accept things and what degree do I try and change things? And I've spent years and years thinking about this question and thinking that the answer was I would be all assorted into a category. I change it. I accept it. That's the way the sorrenday prayer makes it sound, right? Like you just you pick something and you put it in one category or the other. And the more I thought about I've realized that's not the way it works. My experience is you're actually doing both. So my most recent sort of health challenge. And again, it's minor compared to what you've gone through, but is restless like syndrome, which starts to become progressively,

19:07starts to have more of an impact over time because it's not sleeping goes on. Everything is sort of exacerbates. And so there's a part of me that is working with just accepting that's where I'm at right now, not catastrophizing it. I've done a bunch of newsletters recently about like working with the emotions and the thoughts. And at the same time, I'm seen a specialist. I'm trying to change it. I'm doing both. And I think you articulate that really well in your work. Thank you Eric. It is in the early years here in Michigan when things got very, very, very bad. The majority of my friends were really encouraging me to like surrender to it. Can I swear? Yeah. I'm a fucking fighter. I literally a fighter. And I'm just energetically a fighter. So that was an impossible encouragement for me. I just literally did not know how to do it. And I felt like I was doing something so wrong by not knowing how to do it. And again, I do think this is my parents energy

20:13that I've inherited. I do think it's this war energy that I've got like in London when they were bombed like you will bomb us, but we'll still go out dancing. I know, you know, energy. But I feel like I've arrived in a very similar place to you. I would say I still err on the side of being the fighter. I think maybe at first maybe I was misunderstanding what they were talking about because I don't think they were talking about like giving up like surrender, give up. But I still knew it just wasn't my personality. Like at the height of it, I mean, I was staying awake for days on end, not just because of the vertigo, but because my whole nervous and and current system had blown. So I'd be awake for like four days. Everything was flipping and spinning. Again, so much more. And I was teaching. I was teaching my friends were like, you, I mean, I couldn't drive there. I had, you know, my dad was driving me there and back. I would be in the classroom. The students were flying over. I got some of the best reviews I've

21:17ever had. I thought as they get fired. And instead I was like getting all these amazing reviews, which is still very confusing to me. I don't know what I was channeling to be making that happen. But my friends are encouraging me to like sell my house and move in with my parents and get on disability. And I know for some personalities, I'm not knocking any of that because they know for some personalities that that's exactly the right thing to do. For my personality, that would have been not the right thing to do. And I don't know if I extended my struggles by not taking that. I'll never know. But that was not good for me psychologically to do that. So I still don't really have a clear answer if I'm honest, except and fight other than I know I do accept way more than I used to. I think you put it beautifully, honestly, that I do accept

22:18this is happening. And in fact, I'll stay on my self a lot. This is happening. It's okay. This is happening. It's okay. But then I am also always doing the best I know how to improve situations. And there is improvement. I am nowhere near where I was a little too years ago. No, we're close. But yeah, I think I feel like that one is a big, great, big tangle. I think it is a big tangle. I don't think it gets sorted out cleanly. And I think that's the reason the Surrey Opera talks about the wisdom to know the difference. And people say, like, that's the gold. Is that like most things in life that are challenging, we just, it's one thing if you know you can't fix it. Like if my leg was amputated today, I would know I'm not going to have that leg. Now I might do other things, right? I'm not saying that I would like lay in bed and that would be the end of it. But there wouldn't be some vague fantasy that that leg is coming back. Maybe that's not a great example. But things that you just know, like, can't be fixed are easier to just go

23:22about the business of accepting. But most things just don't fall into that category because we don't know, you know, can your condition continue to improve? You know, should you be trying a new modality? Should you try this? There's a new medicine for that. Should we consider that? It's all of that. And I think that just living in the tangle is part of the way it goes. And I think there's just different muscles learning like which muscle to use when? You know, I talk about it with depression a lot because I very actively have fought against depression pretty much my whole life. And I have gone to great lengths to deal with it. But when it rolls around now and it's very manageable compared to where it is when it rolls around now, my best bet seems to be at least now I could change this. But is to be like, okay, it's here. It comes. It goes. It's here. Let's not

24:25make a big fuss out of it because what happens when I make a fuss is I shouldn't be this way. I shouldn't have this. This shouldn't be happening. Why do you still get this? What's, you know, and that actually just exacerbates it for me. So given that it's relatively well managed, now if I if it took another turn where I got a lot worse, I probably would double down again on like, okay, well, maybe what can I change here? Like what levers have a night pulled? And I wish there were easy answers to these things. But I'm drawn to people who don't pretend there are. Yeah. I related to everything you just said. I feel like I have a very similar approach now. I guess that is the accepting of just saying like, oh, hi. You know, here we go again. And then you know, it does help because the thing I related most to what you just said is if you really engage it a lot, then you get into all the sheds. I shouldn't be this way. What is wrong with me and really blaming ourselves for it? I can totally go down that road. Luckily, I just pull out of it

25:30again. And again, I don't know where this part of myself came from. I truly don't. I did not do anything. I didn't do like affirmations. I didn't do anything to build this part. I do not know where it came from. I am so grateful. I have it. The only thing I've done is get to know it better and the good wolf. I've started feeding it more. But it was there. It was there. I think when we get into that shoulder, at least when I get into that, I just get tighter and tighter. Yes. Yes. Which let me tell you does not help your body like all like physical symptoms are just going to get worse and worse and worse. So I am trying to not get so tight. Yeah. And at times it's working. Check in for a moment. Is your jaw tight, breath shallow? Are your shoulders creeping up? Those little signals are invitations to slow down and listen.

26:34Every Wednesday, I send weekly bites of wisdom, a short email that turns the big ideas we explore here in each show, things like mental health, anxiety, relationships, purpose, into bite-sized practices, you can use the same day. It's free. It takes about a minute to read and thousands already swear by it. If you'd like extra fuel for the weekend, you also get a weekend podcast playlist. Join us at 1ufeet.net slash newsletter. That's 1ufeet.net slash newsletter and start receiving your next bite of wisdom. All right. Back to the show. So I want to change directions a little bit with a line from a recent essay that made me sort of laugh. You said, I woke early the other morning with the clear understanding I would never learn how to be a catcher. My mind electric with a worn catcher's mitt, a baseball fwacking satisfactorily into it. I will never be good at catching a baseball. I thought the fact that I've never had the

27:37tiniest desire to get good at catching a baseball was meaningless. I mean, that makes me laugh because it's funny, but talk to me about it. Well, I truly did wake up from a dream of exactly that. This close up of a baseball mitt with a ball going into it. And I was so excited because I was learning how to catch a ball. And I'm such a learner. I always like to try new things, which also has been very limited in this time of my life. Often I don't even remember my dreams. And then if I do, they don't last long. I could not shake that dream. But that did stir it me down this whole road of then what turns into the essay of going into, I don't know if sad is the right word, but very reflective on, you know, what Cheryl Stray calls the sister ships of all the different avenues my life could have taken that that it didn't. And what is my relationship, you know,

28:39to those lives? I mean, a part it took me down like all that I have lost because I have lost a lot. I've lost things I was once able to do. And I lost things I wasn't ever able to learn, which I think the baseball mitt, you know, was standing in for. But then it took me down again, another tangle, at least for me, of what would I have been like if I didn't have this entry? Maybe a lot of people who struggled with very profound health issues, whether they are, you know, life threatening ones, like cancer, and things like that that they have survived. And they feel like it was the best thing that ever happened to them, like such a learning lesson, or other things where they have come out the other side. And they're still grateful for it. I have not come out the other side. It's so right. I don't have like access to gratitude for all these like relentless health struggles, perhaps one day I will. But I do sometimes ponder like, would I be this Jane if my life had not

29:46gone like this? I mean, my life changed dramatically in a split second. I know this happens to millions of us. And what would I have been like, not even what would my life have been like, but what would I have been like if that had not happened? I don't know. But that was just something I was pondering all from this appearance of the baseball mitt. I push your limits, train with precision, see the results. At Equinox, that type performance loving. Everything you need to lock in and unlock your potential at Equinox. Start today at Equinox.com. Ultra running shoes are all about space. The space to go further, to feel better, to do something

30:55you never thought possible. And this space starts with ultra fit. Unlike traditional running shoes, ultra fit gives toes more room to move naturally. So every step is strong, balanced, and comfortable. Whatever you're leasing up for, stay out there with ultra. Shop now at ultra running.com. That's a L T R A running dot com. It's funny. I sent out an email last week, maybe in the title of it was murder the alternatives, which is quite a subject line or podcast guest recently. It said that a friend of his said that to him. And I was applying it to our decision to move to Atlanta because we've been debating all kinds of things. Let's go here. Let's go there. Let's move the Chattanooga. What about Santa Fe? What about Lisbon? What about? For me, once I made the decision, I was like, all right, that's it. I'm going to cut those other lives off because I don't feel like they are useful to me. But you are making a case that

31:58actually there is some comfort for you in thinking about those. And so I wanted to explore that difference a little bit, not that I think murdering every thought that isn't reality is the right thing to do, obviously. And I think about it a lot too. I asked myself, like, well, who would I be if I hadn't been a heroin addict at 24 and gotten sober? I mean, I can't even compute the question. It doesn't make sense. Literally, I'm like, I don't have the foggiest idea. More recent things, I think, about like my last marriage was not a great marriage for either of us. And it was, you know, neither of our fault. And I stayed in it a long time for reasons that I mostly think was the right decision. But I never know. I have my moments where I think I shouldn't have done that. I should have gotten out of their way sooner. What would it have been like if I did X or what would have been like if I did Y? And again, for me, I try and sort of just stop that line of thinking

32:58because it's just regret inducing and not regret inducing in the good way, which is when I think about something that I regret and I can learn something from it, right? Or it can cause me to go, oh, I actually, this is really important to me. I was because I can't seem to resolve it. Because the question just, like I said, sort of doesn't compute. Like, well, what would my son be like if I'd raised him in a different type of household? I don't know. I have no idea. But I just loved how beautifully you wrote about this idea of that there is some comfort in thinking about these things. So I was wondering if you could talk about that. Yeah. You're referring to Sir Wary land, the essay. And again, this is not something that I spend a lot of time ruminating on, but it really came to me so strongly with this baseball. And at the end of the essay, I talk about how I love hanging my laundry outside. It's one of the things that brings me really great joy. And I was taking my clothing out of the washer.

34:03And it was sheets and I love sheets that have dried in the sun. I love the smell of them and the feel of them. It's really palpable to me the difference. And I just couldn't do it. It was a day where I just couldn't do it. And I found myself, I don't even know if it was a thought, but it was just a feeling, my whole body, that there was another Jane on a sister ship who was doing it. And in that moment, I felt so beautiful and I felt very comforted by this other Jane who was out there and she was hanging the sheets. And then it got me thinking about how you're generating these ships like every second we're generating. And again, I got those from Cheryl Strait. But she has from one of her gearshirter columns, which helped me that book, Tiny Beautiful Things. So good. Oh my gosh. That came into my life at the tail end of the terriers. And I still,

35:06I read that book all the time. I listened to it on audio. It's beautiful. It's brilliant. It's wise. It's funny. It's so good. And she actually agrees with you. Her argument is salute them from the shore. She's saying let them go, which I do see the wisdom in that. But in this particular experience I was having, I felt like these are just generating from, I guess, an away from my sorrow in that moment. It was coming from my sorrow, it's causing the ghost ship. On that sister ghost ship, I was hanging the sheets in the back garden. And it might sound so silly, but it really did comfort me. Yeah, it really did. Yeah. I mean, it totally makes sense from that perspective, because you get to imagine to some degree of life that's different that would feel really good. It feels like to me when you're doing that, it is coming out of your sorrow, but it's not a regret inducing incident. It's imagination, which is one of our greatest skills, right? The ability

36:14to imagine other things. And I think I just was really struck by the essay because I thought the weight you were using imagination in that way, different than murder in the alternative. And again, I think like anything, one way isn't right or the other. It's like which serves you best at the right time for what thing. But I just, given I had just done that subject line, which I mean, it talk about like subject line clickbait. I mean, you just can't resist it. It's too, you know, but it's actually the actual term. Wave to just say one thing. Please. As I was listening to you, I was thinking, maybe that wasn't coming out of my sorrow at all. Maybe it was coming out of my good wolf. Yeah. Exactly. Coming out of that place in some protective or deeply caring response. I don't know. I don't know where any of this part of me comes from. I truly don't. Yeah. Okay. So there's an essay where you talk about how starting to use Manuka honey healed a long running wound on your cat. And while that's all a fascinating essay, there's a part in it where

37:20you talk about interconnecting this. And I thought it was really, really beautiful. And I was wondering if you could read that section for us. Yes. I would love to thank you. And I will say that essay, I surprised myself by arriving in this part. I was writing the essay in a very sort of like moment by moment, well, not quite moment by moment, but highlight by highlight of this nine month journey of this wound that would not heal. And finally, Manuka honey healed it. And then all of a sudden, this is where I ended up, which is clearly based upon I study Buddhism for 30 years, Tibetan Buddhism with Gala Chrome stays. So after all this rang about the honey, and also the interconnectedness of this world, all that it took, those marvelous beloved bees in New Zealand who flew to the Manuka tree and collected nectar and returned to their hive. The beekeepers who harvested the honey, the clinicians who tested it for purity and potency,

38:25the workers who bottled it, the people who packaged it for shipping, the ramp agents who loaded the plane and the pilot and co-pilot who flew it to America, the baggage handlers who took it from the plane, the custom workers who cleared it, the truckers who drove it to the warehouse, the warehouse workers who then packed up my one bottle labeled it and sent it to me, the delivery person who brought it to my house. Plus, we could go even deeper into those who designed the airplanes and trucks, those who educated the designers, those who built the airplanes, built the trucks, paved the roads and manufactured the bottles and boxes. What tremendous kindness and community went into healing Rudy's neck. That's so beautiful and it's such a... Thank you. Such an amazing reflection is you weren't reading it. I was hearing all that and then my brain started going to like, but they need to go even back further like who invented the plane. And then you

39:29got to go back like this would be a contested thing, but let's just give the credit all to the right brothers, which we wouldn't because it's more a company. But where did they learn from? What did they? And before you know it, you're kind of back at the first human. Right. I mean, it's the old Carl Sagan phrase, like if you want to make an apple pie from scratch, you have to start at the big bang essentially. It's this idea that all these things unfold and that we are connected to all of them. And it's just a reflection that I've always found very comforting. I have to. I am not alone in the ways that I think that I am. I'm not saying like loneliness is a real thing. I'm not saying any of that. I'm just saying that there is a way in which there is connection that is far deeper than we understand at all. Then we can then we can really fathom. Yeah. I mean, again, my mind goes to my parents and the war. That was the only way they got

40:29through was I don't know. This is everybody's experience, but all their war stories are about community. And I do think I absorbed that was also very interesting when I first started studying Tibetan Buddhism. He reminded me so much of the ethics that my parents had raised me with. And in fact, when I was very young, Eric, like I wanted to be in a war because I felt like I didn't understand the horror of it. I understood the community of it. And I understood how they all helped each other. And it wasn't until I lived through 9-11 where I was like, oh my god, this is awful. Like, my parents, what was happening? I had absorbed parts of it that I think are beautiful and important and true. And I had not really absorbed other parts of it the terror. Parts of it because my parents didn't share it that way. They just didn't.

41:31Oh, and they were fortunate enough that they, you know, the worst horrors of it didn't hit them directly as in like a bomb on one of them. No, they're my dad's house guy. I hit by a bomb. Did it? They did it. Yeah. I mean, they had horrible things. I think maybe it was protective mechanism on their part. Anyway, I'm pulling us somewhere completely different. But this is such a part of my being that is with me. And I do think that part of them Buddhism made so much sense to me how everything is interconnected. You can't do anything alone, which of course is so in the face of what's happening so much in America right now. Right. Not completely. I mean, there's a huge force of interconnectedness. And then there's a huge force, you know, working against the truth of the universe. I mean, they are working against the actual laws of reality, which is that we are all interconnected. Everything coexist. Even things that we don't actually see as connected.

42:33So you say you studied Tibetan Buddhism for how long did you say 30 years? 30 years. 30 years. That sounds like there's a finality to it. Would you say that you no longer study, you no longer practice? You do it in a different way. How would you describe your relationship to all of that? Well, my llama died quite a few years ago. But even when I move back to Michigan, luckily there were centers in New York and Michigan. How lucky was I? And that was actually a piece of, you know, moving back to Michigan that he was here. But in the years that I've been describing where my health was so bad and I really couldn't drive, it was very hard to get there. So in those years, the actual being at the Jule heart center and going to retreats and stuff, that was not the same that it had once been. So that was already happening. But I still felt very connected to Rinpoche. And then he did, he died six or seven years ago, I can't remember. But also, yes, the way I practice it

43:41has changed. I used to do a very disciplined seated practice. That actually stopped many, many years ago. That just didn't feel right to me anymore. I do still have my alter and I do still have deep belief in the teachings, the Dharma of all the things on offer of how the world works, how humans work, how our minds work, our body works. That is the one that makes the most sense to me. But from that has grown my version of all of that, which is still largely embedded in that for sure. But just has allowed for, you know, different things I've learned along the way, which as you may know, you know, the llamas encourage that. I mean, the Dalai Lama is always saying, take what registers with you and throw away the rest. And he starts every teachings. I've been to many of his teachings

44:42by saying, don't leave the religion you were born into. Unless it's become untenable. My experience of Tibetan Buddhism is they're very much not recruiting here. Just to get you to find like what, you know, feels right to you. And Rampshui would always talk about sort of like building we are on practice, but also offering like very disciplined Tibetan Buddhist practices to do, holding space for both. That's another way I feel very lucky to have had him as my teacher. He was so wise and compassionate and also just a really wonderful human. Very funny, so funny. All the Tibetan Buddhist that I've met are funny. And that's one of the biggest things that drew me to them. And Robert Thurman, I don't know if you know that. He just passed. And Bob was a guest a couple times on this show. He's so funny. Then you know, he's so funny. So yeah, I was heartbroken by his death.

45:48I feel that loss a lot. But yeah, it's interesting to me. This is just an observation. And whether they are connected or not, but that we started with you saying, I don't know where this part of me that it believes in the good wolf part of you that we talked about. And it's just interesting to me that it seems like some of that may have been cultivated through a lot of practice that you did in a spiritual tradition. And Tibetan Buddhism is certainly one of those traditions that does point out that there is an inherent goodness in us. That is there. And it's a matter of uncovering it. That's just an observation, either here or there. No, that could be very true. That could be very, very true. Yeah, again, I don't know. Of course, you don't know. But yeah, yeah. Well, I feel like some people do know because they did sort of intentionally set out to build it and struggle with it. And again, I have my emotional and mental struggles. I'm not pretending that I'm like, right, right, just easing myself through life. But I'm saying that peace never disappears. And

46:55mostly it never even flags. Sometimes it's up against a lot. I can fall into very scared thinking. But mostly that good wall for whatever it is always present. So I feel very grateful. But yeah, definitely it could have been from all of that practice of, you know, tongue line and self-compassion and all of that. Yeah. Thank you for that observation. It makes it a little less something that just happened to you. Although there's an element of that and something that you actually had a role in making B. There's a line that a teacher I like a lot has said a couple times, which is you practice now for the times that you can't. And that's always made a lot of sense to me. And it's still is important to me today because I think about the cold stuff is just going to show up inevitably. And the work that I do now is going to bear fruit in some way then that I may not

47:58understand. I may not be able to connect the dots. But I do believe that the heart of what Buddhism has given me and the thing that drew me to it and remains at the center for me is this idea that even in the midst of difficult circumstances, there are ways to be okay. That's the core promise. At least, or the core promise that drew me, I would not even begin to say that's what Buddhism is about. Right. I'm not going to wait into those waters. But that's what it's been about for me. And that's just turned out to be really true for me is that the effort and the work that I put in prepares me to deal a little bit better with difficulty. It's interesting you use the word okay because even at my worst when I'm talking to friends, I will share all the dark places. And then I will always say, but I'm also okay because I'm always okay. I say that all the time. I'm okay. I'm always okay. And sometimes I almost wish I wasn't always okay. I don't know.

49:02I can't believe I just said that out loud. But as I think, should I always be okay? Like, what is this? What is this always okay part? Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. Because in a lot of times over these decades, I haven't always gotten the help that I've needed, the support that I've given. Because I'm always okay. And yes, I agree. That's a really interesting point that I think about a lot also is that I think there are two things that work. I think one is I have developed the capacity to be okay on some fundamental level. And I have a deep desire to present myself as okay to others. Right. I've gotten a lot better at that over the years. People always have said to me like, you're so vulnerable. You're so open. You're so vulnerable. And I'm like, well, most of what I'm open and vulnerable about happened back then. People, you're so brave to share about your hero

50:02answer. I'm like, that was 30 years ago. I don't think it's really that brave anymore to be honest. It was then I think that I've gotten better now at being able to say, I'm having a hard time. But it's very hard for me not to tag on to the end of that. But I'm okay. But do you feel like you really are okay? Yes. I feel like I'm in a lot of pain. In a moment, but I do generally with very few exceptions have this underlying sense of, I'm okay. This is workable. See, I think a Pemma Trader quote, right? You know, it's all worker. I think I have a natural kindness about me. I think it's just part of my nature. And more damage parts to me also want to people please. And so a lot of times the behavior looks almost exactly the same. Trying to understand what's going on underneath is what I think is kind of impossible.

51:03Because I can't fully. But I can't see like, there's one thing dominating here more than other, right? But it's back to the nuance of all this, the blending of it all. We are nearly out of time, but you have an essay. We have a couple of them where you write about things that bring you comfort. And I really like these and I love something you just did, which is a great reason for people to go check out your sub stack, which is you asked your audience to submit things that helped them be okay. How do they cope? And it's a long list of a lot of beauty. But you have your own list. So I'd like to explore just a couple of them. And the first one is around self forgiveness. And you've learned to say four statements to yourself. I'm sorry. Please forgive me. Thank you. I love you. Talk to me about how these said to yourself help you. That's been one of the most beautiful profound discoveries of my life. That's one that was

52:07talked to me again decades ago with one of the practitioners I can no longer remember. And I used it exclusively with others. We're trying to heal like the rest of us. I have some difficult relationships in my life that I couldn't really heal with the person. So it's a beautiful practice. And one day in the winter, I did something really stupid. I walked on ice, knowing I was on ice with all my structural physical problems on very hilly path that I knew well with my dog. And got myself really in a predicament where I had to go down a hill that was pure ice. And turning back was also going into torture circumstances. It was very stupid. It was very, very stupid. I don't know if they've ever used that term to describe myself, but what I had done was foolish. It was absolutely foolish. So what I had to do was like go down the hill like crab

53:11style like were you putting your hands behind you too. I also think I really impacted my dog. She felt my distress. And we got down it. We still had much further to go. It was truly one of the most foolish things I've done in my life. I don't know why I did it. And of course I set myself back with my healing I did. And I just this is another one where I didn't plan to do it. I just started saying that prayer to myself. And when you get the repetitive thoughts, I could not stop those thoughts of watching myself going down the hill with Delilah. And what a foolish thing I had done. I was making myself crazy. And then those four lines just arose and I started doing them to myself. It was really one of the most beautiful experiences of my life. And I continued to do that a lot. I think I did it numerous times a day for like a day or two. And it really just settled

54:12everything. But I was apologizing in that case to my body for having done something so foolish that harmed my body. It was beautiful. So now I do it when I get into those places, I recommend this to anyone. It's also a beautiful practice to do with others. It works with everything. It works with everything. Before you check out, pick one insight from today and ask how will I practice this before bedtime? Need help turning ideas into action? My free weekly bites of wisdom email lands every Wednesday with simple practices, reflection and links to former guests who can guide you even on the tough stuff like anxiety, purpose, and habit change. Feed your good wolf at one you feed .net slash newsletter. Again, one you feed .net slash newsletter. You also talk about another practice that you talk about that are prayers. They are basically monters that you are repeating

55:14there's a lot of value I think in that because very often my experience is I know what I don't want to think. But I don't know what else to think. Right? Like it doesn't work to just be like don't think that because the brain is going to think something. Right? So having some go to phrases I think are really, really helpful. And in the same way that the brain as you said, it's just this repetitive loop. Like let me just put a different repetitive loop in. And I love that one because it strikes the right tenor for me, which is usually not positive affirmation, not over the top optimism. But just like that's reality. Right? That's reality. I'm sorry, please forgive me. Thank you. I love you. Like it was a really beautiful practice. And I love reading about that. And I've loved spending time in your world, in your wonderful sub stack and learning more about you. And I thank

56:16you for taking the time to talk with us. It's been a real pleasure. Thank you, Eric. And thank you for your kindness. And for being so welcoming as I shared with you, I am so deeply shy. And this has actually been a really beautiful, comfortable, safe experience. So thank you. Thank you so much for listening to the show. If you found this conversation helpful, inspiring, or thought-provoking, I'd love for you to share it with a friend. Sharing from one person to another is the lifeblood of what we do. We don't have a big budget. And I'm certainly not a celebrity. We have something even better. And that's you. Just hit the share button on your podcast app or send a quick text with the episode link to someone who might enjoy it. Your support means the world. And together we can spread wisdom one episode at a time. Thank you for being part of the one you feed community. Push your limits, train with precision, see the results. At equinox,

57:17that type of performance loving. Everything you need to lock in and unlock your potential at equinox. Start today at equinox.com.