How to Prevent Blisters, Foot Pain, and Foot Injuries in Ultramarathons with Dr. Jeff Hammond

Welcome to the Everyday Ultra Podcast, a show designed to help you level up your training,

crush your races, and ultimately become a veteran endurance athlete every single day.

Whether you're an endurance athlete as a hobby or someone who wants to be the best in

the sport, this is the show for you.

I'm your host, Joe Corseon, and thank you so much for listening.

Now, let's get into it.

Hey, everybody.

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All right, everyone.

Let's get in the episode.

What's up, everybody?

Welcome to another episode of the Everyday Ultra podcast.

I'm your host, Joe Korsion.

And man, we got a great episode for you today because it is something that all of us deal

with as ultra runners.

And it is on the topic of feet, but not just feet, it's how to attack specific foot

issues, how to prevent certain foot issues and how to make sure that your feet are not

only healthy during training, but in the middle of a run because as someone who has

personally in the past experienced painful blisters, foot pain, and even in my early days

have dealt with some foot injuries, they can be really, really tough, especially because

of the feet.

I mean, they are your first point of contact when you're hitting the ground.

And so I truly believe just like you're taking care of your legs, your muscles, all the

things that are right there, you got to take care of your feet out there because it's

going to allow you not only trained strong, but race strong in these races, especially

since it is an essential part of being out there on the trails.

And so we're bringing on none other than this amazing expert who actually met at Cogadona

last year.

And since then he's joined the Everda Ultra racing team as one of our amazing athletes

lining up for Cogadona 250 next year.

But not only is he an ultra runner, also he ran a 50 mile or this past weekend as

according.

So congratulations to our guest.

Awesome.

Amazing.

But he is an expert in all things feet.

He is a board certified podiatrist and he's the founder of Hammond foot and ankle where

they help to not just runners, but anyone, people to have healthy feet.

Whether it's getting over injury, managing niggles, managing pain, easy isn't expert in

all things blister prevention, blister treatment, foot care, even last year he helped Shelby

Farrell who was in the top five of Cogadona women last year.

He helped her to basically go out there and have strong feet and she came was coming off

a foot injury as well too from the year prior and having a strong performance.

So not only is he someone who walks the walk with the things he does, but he also helps

other ultra runners.

He helps other people as well.

And he's been on many, many podcasts as well to sharing his expertise.

And so we had to scoop him up for yet another podcast I'm here, which we are excited

to have.

Not another Dr. Jeff Hammond on the average podcast of Jeff.

Thanks so much for coming on congrats on your 50 mile and dude thanks for making the

time.

I missed your training.

Yeah.

Let's go.

This is awesome.

I'm excited chat feet and all the crazy things that happen out there 100% and so many

weird things.

What's the craziest thing that you've seen?

I'm curious.

Like as a, as a podiatrist like ultra running related.

What's the crazy?

Ultra running related.

The craziest thing.

I mean, I mean, some of those people's feet where they think they're like, Oh, this

looks good like a blister and they come in their whole foot just like I want to say like

deep gloves.

I mean, not quite the gloving, but like the whole like bottom is just like that white

tissue just coming off and you're just like, Yeah, this just happens.

This is normal for me.

I'm like, No, this is not normal like, please.

And then you know, you get like dog hair stuck in feet that people are like, wait, like

a dog hair or like a cactus spikes like crazy with cactus spikes.

Like, you'll get like one out, but like they have like a little burrs, a lot of them.

And then you actually get more.

And I've seen it where it's like I had someone come in three times and we would take one

off every time and then another one would start to resurface.

So lots of crazy things out in the world, you know?

So many crazy things.

Yeah, man.

You get one of those things where I mean, they just get nested up out there, right?

Like I, I can vision the horror that you mentioned there with the foot to glove in because

I've seen it many, many times.

It is crazy.

Um, so let's actually talk about that first and foremost, like foot care specifically

for ultra runners because I was kind of talking to you before this podcast and we never

had an expert come on talking about that.

And blisters in my opinion, I think are one of the worst painful things that you can do

with an ultra marathon and most people end up getting them.

So maybe let's just over there.

What do you feel like people get wrong about blisters?

You already mentioned that like some people are like, oh, this is normal, but, you know,

you mentioned that it's not normal to have those kind of things.

But what do you think people miss the mark on blisters that allows them to continue to get

blisters shoes, even though they're doing the quote unquote right things?

Yeah.

I mean, I think a lot of people think if they do something like two stop blisters that

they shouldn't get blisters and then they get a blister and get upset or something like

that.

And like you were saying, everyone gets blisters.

I got a blister this past weekend.

Like I prepared for it.

I know exactly where I get the blister.

I still got a ding blister.

Like there are just things that are going to happen when you're going so many miles.

And it's same with like injuries or anything or things that hurt.

People will be like, yeah, I do really good like in a hundred mile race and then the last

10 miles, man, my foot really hurts.

And I go, well, you've been running 90 miles like your foot's going to hurt.

Like it just is, it is one of those things that's going to happen.

Now I haven't gotten blisters.

I've been training all through the winter running through slush and snow and mud here

in Utah.

I haven't gotten a blister and then I got one.

Like it's weird, you know, sometimes things just happen.

Now I'm looking back and like, what was warmer?

My feet swelled.

These are probably things like I'm trying to learn, right?

And I think that's the important thing to do as we go through our races and training when

things happen, learning.

But yeah, blisters, do they hurt?

And like I pulled my KT tape off where I had it, trying to be careful and I ripped it

off and like, I'm limping not because I'm sore because I don't want to walk my blister.

Like it hurts that much.

Oh man, it's like my worst nightmare of like pulling off a blister or pulling off tape

and then there's a blister on there and it comes off.

It is super painful.

Yeah.

And I know I love it.

I mentioned like things that say you can take all the preventive measures and you can

still get them.

Like I've had races where I've done like all the things and you still get them and, you

know, sometimes it can happen, you know, just seemingly out of the blue and it's being

able to be okay with that and still like who's that learning lessons I love that you

talk about too.

Let's sort of maybe prevention on the blister side.

Yeah.

So if someone wants to minimize their chances of having blisters out there, what's kind

of like your go-to suggestion advice or protocol for that?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Well, I think the first important thing is like what is a blister, right?

I mean, people I mean, they know what it is on their foot, they get one.

But it's kind of like the idea, like if you were to go to the grocery store, you're going

to go grab some apples or broccoli and you got to get one of those dang plastic bags and

you have to like try to open it, you know, and you sit there and you're rubbing it, trying

to open the dang thing and luckily we're past COVID where we can lick our fingers again.

But like that is like what a blister is doing to your feet.

You have layers of skin and they're rubbing and what's happening is you're creating

a pocket between two layers of skin and it's filling up with fluid.

So it's a friction, usually it's a friction pressure cause of that blister.

So knowing what it is and how it comes, that's where you have to look at what you're doing.

So it can be as simple as are your shoes too loose?

Are you sliding too much or were they snug at the beginning but now we're farther in

the race and we need to loosen them to allow swelling so our feet are getting bigger?

Is it anti-friction cream?

I think that's a big one.

I think, you know, there's so many things out there, the squirrel nut butter, there's,

I mean, just like aquifer, I'm, I'll mention Cetus through this a lot.

It's a company I work with a lot.

They have an anti-friction cream.

Even putting that on, allowing your skin to move, pass a sock or something without it

grabbing, allowing that friction not to build up.

I mean, it's like if you're starting a fire, right, and you're trying to friction

way, which I've never been able to successfully do, but the whole idea is friction, right?

And you're creating heat.

Well, if you can limit that heat and that friction, you're going to get it.

So lubricating the feet or if they get really wet, taking the time to dry them, if it's

possible, I mean, every race is different.

You know, if you're running 20 miles or 100 miles, that's all, it all changes.

Socks, socks make a big difference, like socks that wick moisture away, like, or finding,

like, you know, people like wear in John G. Socks because the, the, the five finger toes,

that's one way, you know, you're creating spots where they're not rubbing against each

other.

So looking at sock wear, I like socks that have grip bands in it.

You can see this and some other brands have a grip yarn in it.

So it actually prevents your foot from sliding in the shoe, which I think is a great thing.

I think trying shoes out, now that gets expensive, because, you know, you start buying shoes

and they're 150, 200, you know, to, I mean, if you're buying a satisfy or something,

you know, some crazy shoe price, but, you know, finding it out and figuring out what

you need and properly measuring your foot, you know, making sure it's not too big, going

to run specialty store, don't just run to, I don't know, Dix.

I mean, Dix is fine, they have stuff, but if you can, I mean, there's not obviously not

for everyone, find a store that has runners in it and look at a bunch of shoes and make

sure that they're showing you a variety of shoes.

If you ever go into a store and they're like, Oh, no, you have to go with this brand.

This is the only brand.

That's a bad sign because that probably means they like that shoe and their foot fits into

it.

And so, yeah, like in my office, I have a scanner that actually scans her foot and tells

you what brand of shoe your foot fits best into.

And it's amazing how that can help, but yeah, trying shoes out, other things is pre taping,

pre racing, whether you're putting like people like to lukewarm tape or KT tape, or you

can even get like mold skin and place over spots, you're going to typically have blisters

where you got blisters in the past.

That's a great way to pre race and trying it out though and training.

Don't just do it for race day because you just do it for race day.

Am I actually creating a bigger problem?

So really, it's more of, I think a lot of people go, Okay, blister care, I have a race

coming up, let's do it.

But they've been training for three months.

They should have been trying things out before because we don't want to create bigger issues.

But yeah, creating less friction is key.

Like for me, I get a blister between my big toe and little toes.

I wear a gel sleeve on my second toe.

I don't get blisters there anymore.

So it's just figuring those little things out that go a long way.

And if you continue to get blisters in the same spot, start trying different things.

Don't feel like you're done for it.

And then if you have some good races or runs where you don't get a blister and then you

get one, don't get the spared, you know, discouraged, like you can, you can come back.

But other things though, you're going to get one.

If you're running 100 miles, 50 miles, 200 miles, 300 miles, if you're doing the monster

or whatever, like you're going to get a blister.

The other issue, you're running in the morning, might be cool.

You're running in the afternoon, it might be bloody hot.

Then you go back into the night and it's cold again.

And then you start running tired.

So all of a sudden, you really get it running this way.

But now your feet are starting to do something different because you're delusional.

You're going to get different spots.

So when you get a blister, managing it's really important too.

And so popping that blister and draining it is actually a really smart move, especially

if you have many miles to go, okay?

Now, if you're at the tail end, you're coming up, you're like, I'm finishing strong,

you know, 10, 15 miles and you have that speed, don't worry about it.

Just deal with it.

But if you're early on, pop that blister, keep the skin on, clip it, drain it, put a band-aid

tape over it, something, mold skin, and new pair of socks can get going.

And it will prevent you from getting a worse blister and having more issues.

So there's a big blister going.

That was great.

I love talking about like the pre-variant of stuff.

I love like all the angles that you touch on because it could be like so many different

things.

And I love how you take the approach of like, oh, if something happens, like start to

look at the different variables, right?

Like weather, temperature, shoes and stuff like that too.

I love that you bring up the shoes because a lot of the times it can just be the pair of

shoes that you're wearing, right?

Like I've worked with athletes where they're like, I'm doing everything, like I'm doing

the lubrication, I'm doing this and this is the socks, everything.

But I'm still getting blisters.

I'm like, we try to different pair of shoes and it's just could be the way the shoe fits

or they're not fit right.

Which I think is a very like not as intuitive thing that could be causing especially some

of the shoes.

I love it.

You start to talk about like maintenance out there or like, you know, being able to take

care of the issue.

So you are a team.

Are you a team like, please?

No matter what the blister is.

Pop it.

Like is that?

Yeah.

Basically pop the blister.

The very contentious question.

Yeah.

I mean, I, this is my deal.

Like, let's just use 100 mile as the thing.

If you're 80 miles and less, pop that blister.

If you're a slow runner, 90 miles and less, pop that blister.

If you're, you know, quicker, I'm not in that camp, but maybe you're in that camp.

You know, you're running, you're running faster than you know, you can push through it.

And like, you can push your blister pain.

Are you going to die from a blister?

Very, very, very small chance you get super infected and die, okay?

You're not going to probably die from a blister.

So like, it just kind of depends on like, what can you handle as far as pain goes?

And then it will not be as big of a blister if you're able to pop it and it's going to

create less trauma.

It's kind of I did.

If you get an air bubble in like your phone case, you're putting a new screen on and you

got the air bubble and then you can kind of push it around, same idea with the blister.

It's going to start lifting between those layers of skin, making it bigger and bigger

and bigger.

So I did, you can get the fluid out of it.

It's not going to then put pressure on this rounding tissue to get that blister bigger.

So that's why I'm very pro pop.

Now try to have something clean, try to do something as best you can, alcohol wipe or whatever

you have in your, your kit, you know, whether it's your drop bag or something that poke it.

I mean, do what you can and then clean it really good when you're done.

But if you're at the end of the race, man, honestly, don't pop it.

If you finish the race and you got a blister, wait a day because it will actually go to where

it's supposed to and kind of max out and then you can pop it.

That's good.

Yeah.

Especially towards the end of it too.

Do you have any, like, let's just say you pop the blister or maybe you're just using

your pre taping.

Yeah.

Do you have a preference in the kind of tape?

Because I know there's so many different, there's KT, Luco, like, do you have like a favorite?

Yeah.

I don't like stuff that's too sticky.

Oh, okay.

Because no, Luco.

Yeah, Luco is just like crazy sticky.

Yeah.

I mean, if you're like a heavy sweater and like tape falls off your feet, then I can,

you can go stickier.

The issue is when you start to pull that tape off, you're going to start pulling that

skin with it.

So if you can pull the tape off without pulling your skin off, you're in a better shape.

Also if it's a tape or something that you can go in the shower and like soak and then

pull off a little bit better, I feel like KT tape is a really good job of that.

I feel like athletic tape does a good job of that, mole skin.

I mean, if you put Luco tape on great, just be careful when you rip it off.

Like the problem with mine is I was hurting to get to a dinner.

And so I just went and ripped it off and even think about it, or I would have gone slow.

And the problem is, what's hurting is not my blister spot, but it's the skin, the good

skin that I ripped off.

And that's where you even get more issues post-race.

But man, during a race, just get through it, you know, grit the pain, you're not going

to die.

It's just going to stink.

Yeah.

I love that you bring that up because I always think about, and you know, I think about

Sally McRae, like in Cogandona, like, I mean, the video, like, with her and her feet

out there, how she was able to rip it out so strong, and like, that just shows that

yes, intense pain, but it's like so different than like, if you are, you know, flirting

with like a muscle tear or like, oh, yeah, totally different, like where it's like,

you run on that, like, it's probably going to get worse, where it's like a blister is

not going to like kill you.

And it's just really a matter of like pain management and, like, no, yeah.

And eventually, you know, eventually, you'll probably, your body just gets kind of numb

to that pain, like, to some extent, until they end the race, like, I got this blister.

Honestly, it was crazy.

I got it in like the first, like, four miles my race this past weekend.

Oh, man.

And like, I was like, what in the heck, I haven't gone to blister all, all, like, training

long since December.

And you know, by mile eight, I stopped even really worrying about it.

Like our bodies are impressive and are able to take non-serious pain and get rid of

it.

And I think that's something when we maybe talk injuries and stuff.

You know, if it can kind of go away to some extent, it's probably not as serious.

Now, if it's something that's just lagging and not coming around, that's your body telling

you something.

So with the blister, man, keep going, go through your race, don't let it be your DNF

story.

Yeah.

All right.

It's all right.

But because it can be painful.

For sure.

But I love how you say that, too, because like, yeah, like the fee can be like so freaking

painful, but you can push through it.

And it's not like cause it's just a matter of just, you know, grit and it through.

Yeah.

I want to talk about like the injury prevention stuff and like more of like, you know, foot

stuff, too.

One quick question on the blister.

So let's just say you're in that bridge where you're getting a hotspot, right?

Yeah.

Can you talk to us about that, too?

And like, is it, is there a way to prevent it from spiraling out of blister if you get

a hotspot like what's what's the hotspot protocol to kill the lizard before it becomes

Godzilla?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Like, if you start noticing a spot, you're like, oh, this is this, I can see this trending

towards a blister.

Take the time, either put more padding over it.

If you can, like, you know, some more tape layering it up, see if there's something in

your shoe, like did something shift?

Are you doing something weird?

Like, and this is race, you know, specific.

Like you're going to have maybe a different pair of socks, maybe your socks twisted weird,

like try moving things around and doing what you can because a hotspot will get better.

And then maybe you want that blister pain allowing you to do well.

If the hotspot keeps going, you're inevitably, inevitably probably going to get a blister

there.

I mean, you got to do your best.

You just, it's really padding and trying to prevent that friction, friction going on in

the shoe.

Because this is happening during training, you know, maybe pull the training back so you're

not getting it.

Don't get a blister while training and then figure out what's going wrong or try different

things on the next training block or something and prevent your feet from being in the

mess.

Yeah.

100%.

I love when you bring it back to the friction, like how like that is the thing.

It's like you're preventing the friction.

That's the thing you want to prevent that prevents it from pausing the blister in the first

place.

And if you have big calluses on your feet, I mean, there's kind of segways and I feel

like into calluses a little bit.

Things are fine.

But when they start getting too thick, it actually allows that skin to move more because

it's got more to grab onto.

So then you're going to get a really nasty blister underneath that callus.

So please have those calluses paired down to some extent before a big race.

Like, I'm not telling you yet to go get rid of them.

I deal with a lot of like soccer players, ultra runners who like, they love their calluses

like it protects me and I'm like, that's great.

We'll keep your callus there, but take some of it down.

If it's too thick, then it actually creates more area for it to because once you swell

a little bit, then yeah, you're in trouble.

And that's a nasty nasty blister.

Dude, I'm so glad you brought this up because at COVID-19, when I raced the two years

ago, like I had these like huge calluses on my foot and at the time, I was like, Oh,

like this is great.

They prevent my feet.

Now I have the words blister of my life, like under the callus and you can't even pop

it because it's like so thick.

No.

But it was like the most paint like it felt like like there's just pain shooting up my

legs.

It was great.

And ever since then, I like I shaved down my calluses with like a pumice down now.

And so I'm so glad you said that because that's like one of the biggest misconceptions

that even I learned the hard way to not do it now, I like to pass on to my athlete.

So it's so good.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, keep some of it on there.

That's great.

Just manage it.

You know, it'll go a long ways.

Yeah.

100%.

Any other stuff on blisters that we didn't chat about or bring up that you think is important

before we move on to like the injury, muscular stuff with pain.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, I think just a quick recap.

Like shoe gear.

Don't fall into the trend of what's a popular shoe means that's a shoe for you.

Find the right shoe.

Try different socks out just because one brand's popular and then our brand's popular

or whatever.

Find what's right for you.

Just really test it out.

And yeah, it can be a little expensive.

So if you can do it, do it.

And but it will save you down the road.

100%.

I love that.

Love that tip.

Well, that was a really, really good crash course and blister prevention.

Yeah.

You're going to be saving a lot of people's races with that segment on there too.

Let's talk about foot pain.

Now, I guess before we go into injury stuff, I mentioned that I was going to bring up something

to you that I'm curious.

I'm curious.

What is it?

Very curious.

All right.

Okay.

Yeah.

Man, so I had never felt foot pain like that in my entire life.

Now, granted, it was an injury.

It was just like, my feet were so sore.

There was a part where it was getting after this and on a climb where I felt like, in

my mind, I'm running and I'm like, my legs hurt so bad.

And then I just kind of did a body scan and I was like, wait a second.

It's not my legs.

Like it is literally the bottoms of my feet are so sore that they're just radiating pain

up my legs.

And it was like the worst pain, like muscular in an ultra that I've ever dealt with.

And then so then I talked with some people and just kind of like, you know, got some

insight and they were like, oh, change your shoes every like 50 miles because it resets

the foam.

And so I ended up doing that at tall at 200 and like I did have less foot pain, but still

by the end, like my feet were just achy and just so I guess help me out here because

I'm wondering, like, is it just like kind of similar thing where it's like, hey, like

you're running 200 miles.

It's going to happen.

Or is there something I'm missing that can help to prevent that kind of like, because

I tell people like all the time they're asking, like, what's the worst thing about 200

miles?

I'm like the foot pain.

Like the foot pain.

Yeah.

And so here you take.

Yeah.

I think there's a lot of directions you could go with that.

I think what you were told was really good advice to changes and or I mean, it's kind

of like climate changes for the foot.

I think what happens is if you were to put minimal pressure on a single spot for 20 to

25 minutes, you can develop a ulcer in that spot.

Now, as all of us who have normal sensei in our feet, in our body, we do micro shifts.

We sit in a chair.

We move a little bit.

So we never do that.

But people, so there's like diabetics or people who have neuropathy that aren't feeling

anything.

They really keep their foot in one spot and won't move it in the develops an ulcer.

So if you so now we straight put that into where you were at, your feet, they were moving.

So you're not going to develop ulcers, but they're not really in any new environment.

They're getting oversensitized, they're getting over, you know, they're just they haven't

moved.

I mean, imagine if you had a sit in the like a hard wooden chair for like six hours,

your butt's going to hurt, your legs are going to hurt, your arms are going to hurt.

It just hurts.

So even if you stand up for a couple of minutes in the hard chair and sit down, you can

then go.

Like it works.

Same I do with your feet is whether it could be the same shoe brand type model, but changing

into something that's not as moist, drier, fresher foam because foam does collapse over time,

especially so long and allowing it to kind of come back is a really good start to allowing

that foot pain to go away.

Also sometimes we get that kind of foot pain, the bottom of the feet were just burns and

hurts us from micro friction, from sliding.

So it can be maybe we were a little tight when we lit or loose when we lay stuff or we were

sweating and we just got some things to the sock, it came to that friction point again.

Also, so I'm really big on custom orthotics, but with an Astra K, everyone's throwing their

hard plastic orthotics at me, not hard plastic orthotics, K, they do not wear hard plastic

orthotics, especially on an ultra getting something that's really fit to your foot, like I build

very sport specific ones, but that allows a foot to sit at a more normal position.

I think what that does, it allows blood flow, nerves to go in a normal manner and function

more properly.

When we're running, and we're going at a good speed, we're going four to six times, our

body weight on every step.

That over time, our foot's going to get tired, it's going to collapse, it's going to start

pinching nerves and blood supplies, so we don't get the blood supply we need.

We don't get the nerve sensation starts to get a little funky because it's not functioning

properly, the pipes are getting bent, essentially.

If we can keep our foot in a good position, that's going to also help, so that's another

thing.

So shoe gear, changing shoes is great, making sure we have good arch support.

I'm not saying that you can't run in a zero degree shoe, if you're a zero degree shoe

or awesome, if you're a high hill to toe drop person, awesome, but you need support still.

Your foot still has an arch.

Even if you're a barefoot runner, your foot still has an arch and a spokes that have an

arch.

And so, and funny story, a little tangent here on the whole barefoot running world because

I know there's people out there and it's like their Bible born around, I'm barefoot.

So I had an athlete, basketball player from Africa, flat feet, but normal flat feet,

not like pathologic.

He just, that's how he developed, they grew up barefoot, they had flatter feet.

He came in, he reached out to me to get orthotics made for his feet.

Now I made these orthotics and they were basically pancakes, like fairly an arch in it.

And he was like, this feels amazing.

And it's that thing.

We all have a little arch in our foot.

So you need that regardless of what style of running you're doing, but that can help

the burning of the feet back to or the foot pain.

Your feet are going to hurt, I mean, it's going to happen.

Other things you can do is when you get to an aid station, taking the socks off, wiping

them down, cleaning those feet, getting the grid off, getting anything, even the salt from

the sweat.

That like weird sensation of just kind of like a constant rub on like salt granules or

little dirt granules or whatever you mean can really irritate the foot really fast and

cause kind of a nerve sensation.

It's kind of like if you had a sibling and they kept poking you, it's eventually you

get super annoyed and you just want to like, you know, explode at them.

Or like you get a little rocking shoe like your body, if it's covered in sweaty salt,

it's going to start to like be like, oh, I'm irritated.

This is getting irritated and create a sensation to help you recognize that something's going

on.

So those are all the things.

I mean, honestly, those shoe, shoe change sock change is probably one of the best things

you can do in a race, like even if you're doing your own drop bags and yourself crewing,

put a pair of socks in, change those socks out.

Now if it's a one day race, you and you're not going through water and it's pretty dry,

you're probably fine with the pair of socks.

But man, you start getting those long races or weather changes or climate change the

socks.

Mm hmm.

Yeah, I love that.

And I love how you bring up like even the foot pain, you know, is like those like small

things like the granular stuff or, you know, even just like the sliding, like I've

never had an athlete who's like, my feet are just burning, no blisters, but burning

and we found out that it was a sliding thing.

It's like all those little things because like the, I mean, the footage like just tons

of nerves it in.

I'm assuming right?

Oh, so many.

Yeah.

All culminates into, you know, a giant painful situation out there.

Yeah, yeah.

Well, you're, so the palms and your, the soldier of fear, some of the most innervated spots

in your body, because they're meant to be tactile and fill every little thing.

So they're just easily overstimulated.

Mm hmm.

That makes sense.

Yeah.

And these 200 mile races, I'm sure they are stimulated as all hell out there.

Yeah, they're definitely stimulated.

You start, you start doing that like they need, they need that cool stimulation.

Like we, we always ice our heads and stuff, but you know, throw a little bag of ice on

your feet for a minute or something or now don't, she'll be, you mentioned, she'll

be earlier.

Yeah.

She told me one time she put like ice in her shoes and she was like, she like had put

it in like, and she like was like running and it's like, man, this felt great for like

a half mile.

And then I realized, worst decision of my life, right?

Like, because you know, that just leads to blisters and wet, soggy feet.

But it feels, if you can put like a cold damn cloth on why you, and then let your feet

dry, put a new sock on, get going, it goes a long ways.

Yeah, that's just get some baby wipes.

I mean, baby wipes are amazing.

Baby wipes are great.

Alcohol wipes.

Yeah.

They should just not baby on baby wipes because they, they should be made for everybody.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

The wipe.

The wipes.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

Well, no, that's really, really good information because you know, especially in these like

longer stuff, you know, taking care of that foot pain.

I mean, it's, I mean, granted, it's like, you know, the blister thing where it's like,

it hurts that you can get through it, but you know, the more you can manage it, like

the better you're going to be out there.

We're just good.

Let's talk about the darker side of foot pain, which is like, uh, so maybe let's start

from the place of like, where do you think that ultra runners specifically get messed up

when it comes to like, foot health?

Like, is there things that you think people should be doing that they aren't doing that

maybe lead to things like planar fascia or, you know, extended fence or tendonitis?

Like these are a lot of, you know, common things that I tend to see or like peronial tendonitis

in the ankle.

Like, yeah.

Are there foot care things that you think moral to runners should do that they're currently

not to help prevent injuries?

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think the biggest thing I see with injuries is increased too quick in training.

Mm-hmm.

So they come off a rest block or something and they're like, hey, before the rest block,

I was running X miles a week or I was X time on my feet.

And then they try to get back to that too quick.

Um, I mean, and shout out to you guys, you guys have done an awesome job with my slow increase,

which has been great.

So anyone who needs a good coach, good program, every day ultra's awesome, but it's really

all the same.

By the way.

Yeah, that did not get paid.

Um, but no, it's really that slow increase, you know, doing it because sometimes we get

going too quick and that's where injuries come from.

Stress fractures are a big one in runners.

Um, it's that deep, eight pain that continues to get worse, worse and worse and it comes

from overtraining.

I mean, that's really just getting too much in them.

Um, and I think as runners were, we're kind of crazy in some regard, like we feel like

we can run through pain, right?

Like I work with runners all day every day.

I work with runners who are running like 800, 1500 meters, high intensities to marathon

runners, the ultra runners, they all have the same issue.

They want to push through the injury and not stop running every single one.

There's, I have one person right now who's probably one of the best runners in the country

right now.

And she even is like, well, can I go run?

And I'm like, no, like, like, you know, and like, and Boston's coming up.

Um, I know this is the area next week.

So like Boston, Boston's coming up in a month from now.

And like people, it's amazing how many people I have in my office who are training for Boston

who have injuries, because they increase too quick, where they're going to intense.

And I think sometimes a lot of, when you start noticing that injury, being willing to go

in and just get it checked out and being willing, maybe you take a week off if you have to

or easier.

And I think people worry, they're like, if I take a week off, my cardio vascular, everything's

going to just crash.

And that's not true.

I mean, you could basically lay in your bed and do something for a week and come back

and be justified.

Now, I'm not saying you have to do that.

I'm very big on if you're injured, keeping you going to some extent, okay?

But I think the biggest thing is, is running through too much pain.

Where is that consistent thing?

You go two miles in, that spot on your foot starts hurting, that tendon starts to hurt.

Next day, same spot, same spot.

And because it's worse, worse and worse, go get it checked out, figure it out before

become something that's going to, you know, pull you off your race.

And like, so it can be something simple where plantar fascia is not going to kill you.

Plantar fascia is going to hurt and definitely can make your races or training impossible.

But it's manageable.

But what people don't understand is it can lead to so many more horrible things.

And like you said, tendonitis, tendonitis is very manageable.

But if you go beyond when it starts altering how you're gay, how you walk,

how you foot strike, how you handle a technical section, then maybe you roll your ankle

because your your body wasn't ready to handle it because you were inflamed on your tendons.

Maybe you break something, something like that.

So I think the biggest thing with runners is don't feel like you have to be a superhero

and run through it. Go get it checked out, go find someone that you trust,

someone that jives with you, someone who may be a runner or an athlete as a physician,

or someone who really is working and someone who's going to be like, okay,

you have this, what can we do to keep you active and get better?

I think that's really important.

Before we dive into the episode, I need to talk about one thing that's all on our minds,

which is shoes, right?

The shoes that you pick for ultra-marathons are super important.

And I've ran in nearly every brand that produces a shoe for trail running out there.

And let me tell you this, I've recently tried a type of shoe that is the best shoe for ultra-marathons

that I've ever worn specifically because this company designed shoes for ultra-marathons.

While most companies design shoes for shorter races or distances that don't cover up to

that 100 mile or 200 mile distance that can really, really be comfortable, resilient, durable,

and one that fits the needs of ultra-marathons.

And this company is Mount to Coast.

Mount to Coast makes shoes specifically for ultra-runners on road, trail,

or even hybrid shoes that work good on the road and the trail at the same time.

My favorite shoe of all time is the Mount to Coast H1,

which is absolutely amazing on trails that are runnable for very long distances.

And you can even run with it on the road too.

And it has some of the best foam and the most comfortable foam that I've ever ran into.

I also love their T1s on the trail, which are great for technical trails, rocky trails,

trails where you need that extra grip.

And the best part is it has this lacing system where you can actually let the shoe breathe a little bit

in case you get swelling later into an ultra marathon with the feet,

which almost every ultra runner will get in the long enough distances as well.

And don't forget there are one, their road shoe, which is absolutely responsive,

comfortable, and good for speed workouts and also easy road cruising miles.

So and the best part is the shoes are made to last last year.

Jamil Curry at his Chipotle challenge ran 600 miles in one pair of Mount to Coast H1s

and it kept them cruising for the win to win free burritos for a year.

And I know Kevin Goldberg ran over 200 miles in one shot with one pair

at mammoth 200.

So these shoes are built to last and no one likes having to throw away shoes early.

If you want to give Mount to Coast to try, you can get 10% off your order by going to the link

in the show notes and using code every day ultra for 10% off your order.

That's 10% off your order with code every day ultra when you go to the link in the show notes

for Mount to Coast, give them a try.

They're the best shoes that I have ever worn in my ultra on a career.

And I will be wearing them exclusively at all my races this year.

So I'm excited to dive into that.

So without further ado, let's get in the episode and enjoy those Mount to Coast shoes.

Also real quick, if you're looking for a parallel that's going to keep you cool

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Yeah.

And I think with the feet like relative to other like the knee or, you know,

other areas that you can get some running stuff like hamstring cap, like the

feet, I feel like are going to be much harder kind of injuries to run through just

because it is that first plane of contact on the ground.

Even like you said before, like four times your body weight's going down.

And like it's, it's hitting the ground every single time.

Yeah.

So I feel like those foot injuries could spiral out a lot quicker versus like,

you know, a knee issue or anything.

Would you agree to say that statement's accurate?

Yeah.

I would say to some, some extent, I mean, it's hard.

Like I think everything's like, I was having Cornell 10 nice and all

sun because I was running weird.

My hip went out and I see the same thing by Sversa, hip goes, this goes.

I mean, yeah, I mean, I've had torn meniscus for years.

I've never gotten fixed.

I run through it.

It's fine.

And I do think in the foot because like, it is so impactful.

Like you said, it can go out of hand and a bone, a stress fracture can become

a complex fracture really fast because it's kind of like a paperclip.

If anyone, you know, stress fracture, like you taper paperclip and you bend it

back and forth and it just slowly gets weaker or weaker and weaker.

That's kind of like what a stress fracture is.

And then eventually, if you don't take care of it, it snaps in half.

And then you have a bigger problem.

And what's interesting, if you do research, look at the medical journals

and selfless stress fractures, if you get in early, taking two weeks off

or lowering your load, can actually have that stress reaction go away

and you can get right back to training.

You come in with a more serious stress fracture.

You're looking at six weeks of potentially non-weight bearing.

So catching things early.

Now, I'm not telling you if you're out there and also you have a twin

in Japan, run to the doctor, okay?

That is not what I'm saying.

But if you have reproducible pain that is consistent, things that you're at

night, you have a throbbing at night, sometimes bothering you, go get it checked out.

Yeah, I love that because I think, you know, doctor, not doctors, runners have,

I think we have an adverse fear of doctors because we think that it's going to be

like no running, right?

Which is not always the case.

And it's not the case.

It allows for you to run longer.

And so, yeah, I'm a big fan of that as well.

Like any time anyone comes to me and they have this persistent pain, I'm always like

go see a PT, go see a psychiatrist, like go see a specialist, go see someone who's

going to, and I love it.

You mentioned to like being able to see someone who is a runner, I think is

really good because then they can kind of understand, right?

Like, and I think that's like what makes you very unique is that like you are not

only treating ultra runners, but you are an ultra runner, which is like,

yes, so cool to get that expertise.

And you know, the burn of like, you know, I don't want to be not running.

I said, yeah, you don't want to stop, yeah, yeah, and it's, and it's really cool.

So I've had a lot of people come in, I've had people with like, tibial stress

fractures that I'm like, we kept them on on elliptical, we kept them swimming,

we kept them, and they came back and were super strong and were winning races.

Like, that you can be active while injured.

And I think that in, especially American medicine, that is not a popular thing.

It's put them in a boot.

I mean, honestly, it's the lazy doctorate.

And I'm not calling doctors ladies because I put people in boots and tell them

to shut down, okay?

But it's, you put someone in a boot, they're going to get better.

I mean, it's whatever's going on, you can almost, almost any foot ailment.

You put them in a boot and tell them not to do anything.

It's probably going to get better.

But it, then you're going to have further issues down the road.

So I'm very big, we can keep you active.

So if you're worried, like, hey, I'm trained for this race, I'm injured.

Find that person that's going to be like, sweet, how are we going to do this?

Are we going to get you on a bike?

Are we going to you swimming?

Are we going to get you into one of those bubble runners?

Are we going to, I mean, there's so many cool things out there to do.

100%.

Yeah, like I see people all the time go to the bike or the elliptical or swimming,

like having that cross train to keep that active.

Because, you know, like you said, it'll maintain that cardiovascular for like,

and I love it.

You bring up the thing where yes, and to, if you don't do anything for one week,

you lie in bed, like you're not going to lose any fitness.

And if you just maintain it by like doing a non impact cross training activity,

you're going to get there too.

And so I love that you bring that up, which is, which is super useful.

Now, let's cross training is awesome as well.

No, yeah.

Like I honestly think the people who do a little bit of swimming or biking or other

things, a lot of times creates a different toughness and your body to do some cool things.

So you actually might come back stronger.

I mean, I, I worked with a runner who's an Olympian, okay.

And he came back from an injury and he had to shut it down for a while,

but he did the cross training stuff.

He actually came back stronger than he was before.

And so I think that's something like you're when you're in that despair, like,

you're, you're, you're going to come back.

You're going to get better.

It's just taking the time to do it.

Yeah, 100%.

It's tough.

I think I'm sure you get this too.

Like whenever, you know, I see an athlete,

they're getting the first injury that they've ever gotten that I feel like it's always so tough

because I'm not saying that everybody should get an injury.

But it's like, once you've had the injury gone through the rehab process,

like even like you mentioned, too, like, hey, like, you know,

you had some prognosis tendonitis flare up.

It's like you just see it.

You know what to do.

You get over it, whereas like that first injury can be so hard,

because you don't know what that process is going to be like.

You start getting like, am I ever going to get better?

Like what the heck?

Yeah.

But it's like, I think, I think I see that a lot with like the runners who have had injuries

before it's like, you kind of know the process.

You know, you're going to be back to it.

Yeah.

You're going to stop.

It's going to be pesky when you can kind of get back to it.

Yeah.

And I think you see that a lot with like very seasoned ultra runners and professionals.

You're like, why aren't they ever injured?

It's none that they're not injured.

They, they are dealing with it because they know how to deal with it and they're really good.

I was taking care of one athlete and I have laser therapy.

I do it here and we were lasering something and I'm like, is anything else bothering you?

He's like, well, if I really had you laser everything that hurt, it would be here, here,

here, here, here and here.

Like they're just in pain.

Like it is just, it is what it is.

So don't think you're the only one out there dealing with it.

It's knowing how to manage it.

Yeah.

Getting that first injury is not fun, but knowing how to deal with it is a great learning

thing.

Or speaking in the dealing realm, like let's just say someone has that like thing recurring

and like they got something in their foot and it's niggling, right?

Like they get pain in their throbbing at night.

They wake up tomorrow.

It's pain pain like day two, day three, day four.

So of course, go check it out.

I agree with that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You know, again, remediate this before it spirals out in the front of the bigger.

Yeah.

Yeah.

If you start getting that kind of tendonized muscle pain, especially those talk about

that kind of first, like icing is an amazing thing.

Okay.

I know it's weird.

I work with some people like, oh, I don't ice and I don't get that personally.

Okay.

Ice is an anti-inflammatory helper.

Okay.

For a tendonitis, icing goes such a long way.

So you do your activity, I said, do that for a good week, week and a half, and see if

you start coming off what's going on there.

So I think icing is a great thing.

Heat's also a great thing.

Icing is for the immediate after activity, heat's for that later on thing, taking a hot

shower.

If you have the ability to take a bath, you have the ability for a sauna or a hot tub,

like those go a long ways.

I was dealing with some hip stuff, man, I would ice a heck of that thing after exercising.

And then I would go, I don't have the best bathtub.

I have like the dinky little like tub that I barely fit in.

But I like, I would fill it up with hot water to my hip level and I would just sit there

and let it soak.

Like, I was doing what I could, right?

And for things like that, see if that helps.

And that can go a long way.

Now when it comes to the bone things, try different pair of shoes, try different training

surfaces.

If you're training on concrete or very curved roads, I just forgot the term for like a

problem.

It's like, I said it like eight times today.

Isn't it like lacquer or something?

I don't know, something.

No, it's like, yeah.

You know, when you got close to science, I seriously was talking about it for like an hour

with someone today.

And I can't think of it.

Anyways, we'll pop up.

But like, cambered, cambered road.

You got this cambered road, right?

When you're running on one side, one leg is going to hit before the other and one's going

to go longer.

So switching it up or running right down the middle of the road, if it's not obviously a busy

road, like those cars don't do that.

But like, or are we running on dirt?

Are we running on loose gravel?

Are we running?

Like, change that surface up and honestly, change that surface up even if you were not having

paint because it's so good for the body to take in these different sensations.

Because running on different surfaces makes a big difference.

Now, shoes, shoes, seriously can make and break things.

And I learned this the hard way.

That's my pronoun 10 and I came from too soft of a hill shoe I was wearing on my tempo

runs on the road.

What was happening is when I was hitting, I started rolling out because it was giving

me no support on my ankle because I'm not a hill striker, but kind of a hill striker.

And it was just wearing out my pronoun 10 and I did.

So I still went to a nice soft shoe, but had more structure.

And honestly, doing something as simple as that would set you along ways.

And so making sure you're in the right type of shoe for the train you're running on, I

was, I think an interesting thing, people will get Achilles tendonitis or shin splints,

okay?

Really quick way.

If you have planar fasciitis, you have Achilles tendonitis, you need to go to a high hill

to toe drop.

8, 10, 12 millimeters.

If you're having anterior shin splints or shin splints in the front of your legs that

pain, go to a low hill to toe drop, go to a topo, go to an ultra, try that, lower it.

And honestly, little things like that change everything.

Like as simple as that, I was having some posterior planar fasciitis.

I went to a higher shoe and this was mainly on my road runs where I was like on more

of a harder payment where I was running faster too.

It's where I typically do a lot of tempo and it went away.

I haven't had any issues.

And it's because you're allowing those muscles to function better.

Yeah, I love that.

Being aware of where it's just like just like those small little shifts in the shoe can

even just, and I even see this a lot like sometimes when I'm working with an athlete.

And like, you know, when we program to like, we always make sure everyone's like leveled

up.

So like when someone gets an injury, like, we always kind of look at the other things

the external.

And one of the most common things I see is if someone's like, all of a sudden, like,

oh, I got some foot pain or even knee pain or anything such too, first question I ask

is like, have you ran in a new pair of shoes?

And they're like, yeah, well, I tried these new shoes and you know, you look at the heel

to toe drop of that shoe versus the prior shoe and you're like, oh, there you go.

Or like they try new pair of shoes and you know, they start to get that pain and like just

changing the fit, the heel to toe drop, the stack height, even going from a carbon plate

to a non carbon plate.

Oh, yeah.

You can see like those benefits happen really quickly.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

I mean, and that's the thing with shoes because you look at shoes, there's stabilization

shoes, there's soft shoes, there's carbon plate, there's nylon plate, there's narrow wide,

zero, there's so many out there.

And as a consumer, I'm really good at this is buying what's bad.

What is cool?

Like, you want to be part of, you know, you want to be part of the cool crowd, right?

That's human nature.

You want to be accepted and, and shoes, sometimes it's, you kind of get pulled that direction.

I've had a lot of runners who like, hey, I ran marathons all last summer.

No problems.

And now someone getting all this pain, I'm like, well, what'd you run in last year and

like, oh, I ran in X and X brands.

And then they're like, but I just got this, this is the popular brand.

I got this brand.

And I literally, all I did, they spent a lot of money and all I told them was change

your shoes.

I'm doing so much better.

They went back to the shoe they were in.

We naturally will go to the shoe that's good for us.

If we allow ourselves not to be clouded by what's popular.

And you see that, like, and there's nothing wrong with the end of the brands.

I'm going to say here, but there's like a hook a wave.

There's a, there's an on cloud wave.

There's the carbon plate.

There's now the all conditions gear Nike alpha fly carbon plate.

Like, there are these fats and we want to follow them and get into them.

But you have to tell yourself that's not going to work for me.

If it, and it might work for you, but you have to be willing to, to try things

and not maybe wear the flashiest bling and shoe out there.

Yeah.

Is there a way, like, let's just say someone wanted to try out a shoe.

Like, is there a smart protocol that you like to recommend for people to, like,

basically dip their toe in without doing a full cannonball.

I think, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, I mean, you got to find a good running store, okay?

So like out here, where I'm in Provo, Utah, there's a place called Runners Corner.

And they have like a return policy that's really favorable.

They also have like a little track within their store to walk around, which is really

cool.

Like, you can try it on.

You can do it.

And they know runners, like Christian Allen, who's an amazing trail runner.

He's one of the owners of that store.

He knows running.

There's a girl Sydney Park who works there, who's a big ultra, you know, Sydney who works

there.

They all the runners are collegiate runners or have some type of thing.

Now not everywhere in the world has this amazing running store, okay?

Because you might be in, I don't know, Evanson, Wyoming, okay?

As far as I know, I've been to Evanson a lot.

There's no amazing running store in Evanson.

Maybe I just haven't found it yet, but I kind of doubt it, right?

So you got to find, figure out, is there an online way?

Is there maybe I do make a trip out of it?

Maybe I make a weekend of it.

I go down a running store that I know is good to a bigger city, Salt Lake City or wherever

you are in the world and try those shoes and find a place that's going to let you go

through a run in it and you can put it in.

Like I was in San Francisco this weekend at the San Francisco Running Company and I was

talking to them in their store and like, they literally have people go run around the

parking lot.

Like, they're not going to say, oh, there's a little dirt on that shoe, we won't take

it back.

Like, now if you go run through mud and stuff, you know, okay?

And they don't take your shoe back.

Don't be mad.

But like, try them out.

Go to a place that does it.

That's a good way.

I mean, honestly, even if you go to a store that you can't do that, just walk around the

store for like 10 minutes and be that annoying customer.

Be that customer like, dude, they're still walking in that shoe.

Like, just do it.

Like go look at clothes, but hey, I'm going to, here's my shoes, take them as collateral,

my credit, whatever.

Go walk around the rest of the store and look at other stuff and see how it builds.

See if you settle into it.

Like, that is going to go a long ways.

Mm-hmm.

I love it.

I love it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I love a testing protocol on that too, because it's, you know, making sure that there's

like a return policy, all that kind of stuff to just test the waters, which is a, which

is a really good thing.

Yeah.

Kind of.

And I think another thing is sorry to jump in here.

You're good.

Don't.

I know.

And this is hard.

I mean, I, I don't have all the money in the world.

And I bought in a pair of shoes and I wore them for a while and they weren't working.

You know, I had to, I didn't run through it, you know, because I knew I was going to

have issues if I did it.

I literally bought, like, I bought these sockney.

I don't fit, my foot does not fit in a sockney, okay?

I, just, whatever, how they do it, my foot is not built for a sockney.

But there's cool colors and I liked it so much.

So I bought this shoe and I tried to run in it, just hurt so bad.

And I, it was expensive and I probably should have, this was night early stages of shoe

buying.

And I had to give it up.

I gave it to someone and, you know, or you donate it or whatever you like to do.

Be willing, be humble enough to say, I spent $150 on this pair of shoes and I have to give

it up.

Yeah.

I love that you mentioned that because it's like one of those things where we feel like

we need to continue to use it because we bought it.

We spent the money.

And it sucks for sure.

But like, I mean, I always explain it to athletes.

It's like, the thing that sucks more is getting injured or being out of a game.

It's way more expensive to be injured and I would almost rather you go back to the old

shoe that's probably run out and stay in that shoe for sure.

Yeah, 100%.

Yeah, I love it.

You're saying that's because it is, it, I mean, shoes are expensive nowadays.

Like they are, it's not cheap.

Yeah, it's not cheap, especially like if you're getting like one of like the flashy,

like super carving and plated, you know, super shoes and stuff like that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Kind of same vein, but different kind of angle.

Are there any like specific exercises or like strength work, mobility work that you

think every runner should do, even if they don't have like five, 10 minutes a day, right?

Like because we all hear, you hear it all the time.

I don't know the time for strength.

It's like BS.

You can make the time for it.

Is there like a, like a, you know, kind of like a, you know, Jeff Hammond pack of moves

approved that that people can do like frequently to help to increase their foot health and prevent

injuries?

Yeah.

I think the number one thing is your posterior chain, the calf, the gastroc, the Achilles,

the soleus, the flight, there's a flexor who loses longest that goes back there, which

people don't realize is really kind of back in that calf muscle area.

It's not part of the Achilles, but when you're climbing, that big toe is doing so much

work.

That whole back of your leg needs to be flexible, okay?

So stretches you can do while you're on a video call, you're brushing your teeth, you're

cooking dinner, literally putting your foot up against the wall and bending into it,

right?

Stretching that calf, dorsiflexion, or you're on a step and dropping that hill to really

stretch that calf.

That honestly doing that and holding it for a minute, I'm like a true minute, not like

I'm counting in my head, 20 second minute, like a true minute, but like doing it goes

a long ways.

Like, I've seen so many people get better just by doing simple stretch like that.

And even or putting your hands against the wall, putting one of your feet behind and stretching

that calf muscle is awesome.

Now if you have a little bit more time or you'll a bit more free, like one of those stretch

bands, put around the tip of your toes, sit on the ground, pull it up, stretch that calf,

but then you can also pull it to the side and stretch the peronials, pull it to their

side, stretch the posterior tip.

And then you can actually do a straining exercises by going against the resistance in

every direction.

But honestly, the biggest thing, stretch those calves and then stretch your hips as well.

And that will solve so many issues.

I mean, I have people come up with a plan of fasciitis.

The first thing we talk about for like 15 minutes is the anatomy and stretching because

once you figure that out, you can get better, unless it gets beyond information.

But the beginning stages of it and loosening up will make you just a happier person.

And if you're out on a run and you're 50 miles in, take five minutes and stretch it out

because you will, your next 20 miles will be so much better.

Yeah, I love it.

It'll be faster and all that.

Yeah.

And it's like crazy how, you know, a lot of times you think about foot pain and it's a

footstep.

But it's really the calf.

That's like one of the biggest focus on.

Yeah.

Well, and the thing is, you have muscles in your feet, but they're like, it's like a pen.

I mean, the muscles are, like, honestly, when I did my anatomy class, I had this very

texic cadaver, meaning like very skin, like nothing.

She, like, you know, it was an elderly lady who passed with no muscle.

And like, you couldn't even find the muscles.

They were so small.

And so even then, someone who's super built and strong, you still, those muscles are

teeny tiny.

The main muscles of your, your, your foot and everything are your leg muscles.

All the major tendons, all the major function comes really from those muscles.

Now, I'm not out there saying, don't strengthen your feet.

You know, you can do toe yoga.

You can do the clawing exercises, but calf muscles, your, all those muscles in your legs

are going to your feet and really important.

Keeping those loose will prevent injury over and over.

I love that.

And as you were, as we were kind of sharing that I did put my foot on the wall and give

this the stretch of try because you were like, even on a video call and I was like, I

got to do this.

So now I'm getting the cat of the fill.

Do great.

So good.

Oh, doing it.

It's amazing.

Yeah.

It is awesome.

You literally can do it without anyone knowing.

I'll like literally be talking to people on the street.

And I'll like just slowly move down to the curb.

And I like put my foot up against it.

I just like keep talking to him.

Like when I'm on a walk.

And I'm like stretching why I'm doing it.

Like people don't think it's weird.

Like it just looks like you're kind of like fidgeting and you're really stretching.

Yeah.

So when you're making that million dollar deal at lunch, stretch those calves.

Yes.

I love that.

That is awesome.

I'm sure you got a lot of people listening to like we're probably giving it a try as

well.

And if you get a million dollar deal while stretching, I want to know, please send

the story over because I want to I want to hear what business deals you closed or

whatever.

So good.

And then someone's like, Hey, like I close a deal because you're taking care of your

calves, right?

Like that.

That'll be that is a success story right there.

I love that.

And my commission, my commission letter will be sent to them.

Exactly.

Exactly.

Jeff gets a commission for that for sure.

So awesome, man.

Well, it's been awesome talking about like feet and and blister care and everything too,

but like real quick at the end of this podcast.

Let's talk about your training real quick.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Coming up real quick.

Well, I've been less than two months away.

You got about like a month and a half, first 200 plus mile race.

You were out there last year, you know, helping Shelby for all out with mutual friend, amazing

top 10 or top five finish, which is like, yeah, fourth, which is so awesome coming off

of injury.

And so how's training going, man?

Like how are you feeling?

Go down and what's what's the journey been like?

Dude, the journey's been crazy.

I mean, I, people think I'm crazy and I am a little bit crazy, but like my, my, like,

it's been baptism by fire, like Shelby was like my first ultra, I didn't even know

ultra's really worth thing, not even a year ago.

Like I was, like, marathons, all that was really where I'd seen people and triathlons.

I'd done triathlons, but ultra running was like, trail running.

I was like, oh, yeah, it's there, like, cool, Shelby.

I got connected with Shelby and with a great company, see this, which I mentioned, we,

and I started getting to this trail running, like, this is really cool.

I'm like, I can go hike that mountain, but like, not make it like a hike.

I can run up and get down and still go to work that day or something.

Like, this is awesome.

So I go with Shelby and like, I still remember I met bumblebee, okay, waiting to go up

to crown king.

And I'm talking to them, the, um, the volunteers and I'm just like, so like, this is amazing.

I'm going to do this next year, like, I love this.

And they're like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, talk to me at the end of the race, then tell

me if you're going to do this next year, right?

Because this is the first couple hours.

I see those same people at the end of the race.

I'm like, I'm doing this next year.

This is amazing.

Like, and they're like, okay, you're crazy.

And like, since then, running, trail running is just amazing.

I went out to UTMB, uh, Mount Blanc, uh, and went and saw the runners there.

I've been connected with amazing people, um, Elizabeth Clark, who's coaching me.

Through everyday ultra, just amazing person, amazing coach, just like, really, like, I

mean, seriously, anyone who's out there who's looking for a group, like, the love and

like, acceptance is amazing.

It's, and that's what trail running is.

And I think, um, I, I think that's what I love about it.

I, I had Kilimanjaro years ago.

And like, what I loved about the Kilimanjaro experience was I showed up with two more

late in life women who just walked around their garden.

I showed it with a military guy from the UK, showed up people from Florida all over the

world.

And we hiked this mountain together and we got to the top and then we just bonded by

no other.

We sent Christmas cards to each other.

I was in the UK.

I met up with these people like this, this, this, like bonding of doing something hard.

And that same thing happened with Shelby.

And I really love that kind of experience.

And that's let me to trail running now.

People think I'm crazy because they always go, well, what's the farthest you've ever

run?

Well, usually when they ask me that question, I have to like, giggle because until this last

weekend, it was 34 miles.

And then this week when it was 50 miles, like, so keep in this past weekend.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Oh, yeah.

I'm crazy.

I'm crazy.

No, no, no.

I love this.

And like, for me, it's like, I'm not someone who's like, okay, let's work our way to the

spot.

Like, if that's what I want to do, that's what I'm going to go do.

And like, I can do that.

Like, it's a mental game.

It's something I really enjoy.

And I've talked to people and they kind of give that look and they kind of laugh and go,

yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, you won't do that.

And that actually makes my fire burn more.

It's kind of like that, like, I'm trying to be nice and not say anything mean.

But like, you know, I'm going to stick it to the man, you know, like, like, you can do

hard things.

And I don't think there's no way to, I personally don't think there's a proper way to

get to a 200 mile, a half marathon on a marathon.

I always hear people, well, I'll do a half marathon.

I'm like, why don't you just do a marathon?

Like, just do it.

Like, I'm very big in that, that world.

Now, I know people are like, oh, he's not going to do it or whatever.

Great.

Those are the people that I'm going to be like, you know, next podcast that I'm on.

I'm like, so I did this 250 mile race and it was amazing, right?

I mean, they are a cut five miles off the course this year.

I mean, there is already going my direction.

So like, life's good.

Like, so yeah, for me, it's been amazing.

I love just getting out there doing hard things and honestly, having a coach has been a world

of a difference.

And I can't say enough goodness about Alyssa.

She's just an amazing person.

And yeah, I'm stoked, man.

I can't wait for that, like, middle and I, I don't know what I'm doing.

Moments, like drinking a code red.

Like, I'm more excited about the food I'm going to eat than anything.

Like, I had, well, so I was out.

So this is funny.

Lindsey Dwyer, who actually took third in the coach, no last year, she actually paced

me at this 50 mile error this last week.

Oh, super cool.

We just happened to connect.

We're running and like, it was funny.

I got to 34 miles with her.

And then I said, Lindsey, you're never going to believe this, but every step from here on

out, it's going to be the farthest I've ever run.

And she was just like, what?

Like, you're amazing.

I don't know either.

Yeah.

She didn't know either.

No one knows.

I don't even know.

We know each other like a year.

I didn't even know.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, because people judge you so quick.

We live in a world of judgment, right?

Look at Instagram and take time.

I'm just new positively because that's all.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And that's good.

Most people don't.

Okay.

I've gotten some really cool looks, cruel and mean and interesting looks.

And, you know, I'm just like, kind of like, just do what makes you feel like feels good.

Like, if it's going to challenge you.

So yeah.

And so like doing that whole race, it was just like, then what's fun is I was doing well

and she's like, yeah, you can do this.

And then you that really just makes that fire burn.

So no, I'm stoked.

I'm stoked for my Chipotle burritos.

I'm stoked for my pizza.

I'm stoked for my code red.

Like bring on the waffles or whatever pancakes.

Like, I'm going to stuff those like my case.

So my first old chair was a 50 K.

And when I pulled up and they had bacon at the aid station.

I was like, cheery guys.

Like, yeah, bacon man, this is the best.

I'm not doing this gel crap, which I do do gels.

But like, you know, I love being the unique person, you know, I'm not going to win it.

I'm not dang, you know, I'm not going to go killing corth.

I'm not doing 50 hours, you know, like, I have my goals.

There's things I want to achieve.

And I know what I can do and what is a goal for me.

And I think that's for anyone.

If you're a new to season, I like, when you have a goal, it's your goal.

It doesn't matter what someone else says, like, go and try to obtain that goal.

And that's what I love about it.

I love obtaining it.

And we'll see what's after Cucodone.

I mean, I really want to go do Mount Blanc.

I mean, I think that would be amazing.

Like, why not?

Like, why do I have to be a seasoned ultra runner, I guess, to do that?

Yeah, dude.

And I want to say, man, like I said before, like, I'm judging you very positively on this

because I, dude, I love it.

Like, the way that you explained it is exactly how I always express it to athletes, right?

Like, it's like, hey, I want to do a marathon.

But I know I should do a half marathon first, right?

Like, the question is like, well, why not do the marathon?

And I think because of the people that you mentioned, like the cruel people,

the people who set these things, right?

We think of society that we need to go in a certain bridge to like level up into it.

But the reality is you don't.

And it's like, yeah, you, you can go for these things like how you want it.

Now, of course, right, there's the real, like, you know, the reality of like the training time

and everything and such too, but like it doesn't mean that it's like, you know, not doable,

right?

And I love that you're taking that approach and like, man, I think you have the thing

that, like if people want to make that big jump, like you have the thing that allows

you to do it and that's the enthusiasm and the excitement and the passion, like even

just hearing, like I can just hear it in your voice, man, like, and you're doing the work,

right?

Like you hire to coach, you're, you're putting in the work and I truly believe that you

can do anything you want in life as long as you're willing to learn and put in the work.

And if you have the passion to do it, like you're going to get it done, man.

So I hope everybody that you're listening, like you're Jeff, and first of all, if you

are judging screw you, secondly, secondly, I will say though, like I think this can be

a good wake up for some people, like if they're like, I want to do a hundred miles with

maybe they haven't done a 50 K yet, it's like, just go for the hundred, like, and along

the way you can do races, like you mentioned, but like, man, like I think like you are the

epitome of the spirit that we want to embody here at Everett Elementary, which is like,

man, if you want to go over these goals, there's no arbitrary timeline to do it.

And so I just want to say, man, like long, long way of saying, dude, I respect you.

I am so like proud of you, man.

And it's just so inspiring to see you go for it, man.

I know you're going to.

Well, thanks.

Yeah.

I'm excited.

Yeah.

And I really like how you say, like it's not like I'm just showing up and running the

race.

Like, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

There's work and just like anyone out there, like I'm not saying, hey, just go sign

it for marathon and run it.

Do the work.

Find, do what you need to do.

But, man, go for it.

Like, have fun.

Like, find what food?

I love eating pizza out there.

I love walking past people and be like, eat my pizza in the middle of nowhere and people

like, what the heck?

Funny story.

I know we're running low on time, but so I usually do these hiking trips as a kid.

And the older boys would take the younger boys up on this backpacking trip.

Okay.

And we would only go like a mile and a half, two miles.

But it was like, for the younger kids, 10, 11 years old, this was like a big thing.

And I would take dry ice and a hog and dust kind of ice cream.

And so we'd go up in the mountain and they'd be pulling out their dehydrated ice cream,

right?

And be like, oh, yeah.

And I'd come over and I'm like, oh, that looks real good.

Like, you can do stuff.

You can make it fun.

Like, why can't I eat ice cream in the middle of the mountains?

Like, why can't you go have fun suffering in the heat of coconut or the rain or what,

who knows what this year will bring?

I have feeling a lot of heat.

Hopefully no rain.

Yeah.

Last year was great.

You got the unorthodox experience as a group and you still wanted to do it, which is amazing.

And you are doing it this year, which is awesome.

Yeah.

It's going to be a party.

Yeah, man.

And I just got to say, man, it's so cool to see you last year being like, I want to do

it because I see a lot of people be like, oh, I want to do this eventually.

And then life happens or, you know, the negative voices come in and they go away, but it's

the people.

I think you can listen to that voice, that passion, that initial inkling and take action

like you did, that accomplish their dreams, man.

So I just want to say it's super inspiring.

Yeah.

Well, thanks.

And, you know, it's throwing themselves to good people.

I mean, my wife and kids bless them.

I mean, I couldn't do this.

Like, honestly, I went to my wife's side.

I want to do this.

She said, okay, we'll make it work.

And she actually came to a race, not knowing fully like what was going on.

And after that, she's like, okay, I understand.

She's giving me full, you know, ability to go train.

Now post-Cocodona, that's going to change greatly.

But like, you have to have those, you have to have a good support system too.

And if you don't have it, find it.

Whether that's through a coach, you know, every day, I'll try things the way to go.

All this around yourself with those people and, and get rid of.

Like, I've been around some people are pretty negative.

And I've like, not that I'm like shutting them out.

Like, I'm not saying like, get rid of those people.

Like, I don't need a, I don't need a father with that, right?

So 100% man.

So we can keep going all night on this stuff.

No, but it dude, it's so good to say, right?

Because it's like the people you surround yourself like they, it directly impacts your

energy.

It impacts like how you approach life, how you feel.

And so having a good support system around you.

And, you know, quite frankly, choosing to not hang around the negative people, I think

it's just equally as important as a support system, man.

So I just know that you got a, you got a good community here with every

wheelchair.

Yeah.

It's going to be great.

Yeah.

It's going to be so awesome.

And I'm excited to see you, man.

Like cross that finish line and heritage square in Flagstaff.

It's going to be an incredible journey.

And for anyone listening who wants to fall along Jeff's journey as well too.

And also, if you're, if you're listening to this, you're like, man, like, my feed hurt.

I need someone.

I need a specialist to Jeff is also, you know, offering a service as well, Jeff.

So before we ask our last question, where can people fall along your journey?

And also, if they're interested in working with you to help them, you know, take

care of their feet.

Where can they do so?

Yeah, yeah.

So there's a couple of great ways.

I mean, so hammondfoot and ankle.com, you can actually do telehealth with me.

So we're, I talked to people in Belgium, the UK, all over the country, where we can talk

and go over things if you're preparing for race or you have something going on.

You want a second opinion, you know, for 50 bucks, we can talk and ping out Instagram,

Jeff.r.hammond or ham and foot and ankle, please add me.

Please follow me and see the craziness.

You can message me there, either I or my social media person on my business site will

answer or I will answer on my personal, like, I'm not big enough to not answer.

So I will answer and I love talking feet.

I know it's weird, but I do.

I mean, yeah, those are probably the best ways to find me.

If you're in the Utah area, if you're ever in Utah, come swing by.

Like come say hi.

I got snacks and treats, come still some, even if you're just saying hi.

If you see me at a race, you see me in a season, just bug me.

Like I love it.

Like I love when people come and be like, I think you're the foot guy.

That's always how they say it.

Like I am the foot guy.

And like, yeah, I've been in like, in Europe and people like, you're the foot guy.

I'm like, yeah, I'm the foot guy and then it's awesome.

And it's super fun.

Oh, that's so amazing.

Well, I'm hoping that people listen to this and they see you at Coca-Dona.

They're like, you're the foot guy from the Everett Ultra podcast.

So I'm really hoping it's so.

But anyone, everyone here listening, I will put all those links in the show notes.

So do the website to book a telehealth call, links to his website.

If you want to visit him in person in Utah, and then also links to social media,

the all in the show notes there.

And please, you know, if you have any foot things,

anything that you want to, you know, either chat with or get a bison or get some

treatment with highly recommend Jeff and his services.

I mean, he is a wealth of knowledge as you can see by this podcast.

But also, you know, having that amazing ultra running spirit that we all look for,

you know, here in the Everett Ultra community.

So it's been awesome, man.

But before we let you go, man, we do have one question that we ask every single athlete

on this podcast.

And that is the question that's the ethos of the show, which is Everett Ultra.

And the ethos is, we help our listeners endure better and be better

in satellites every day.

So my question to you, Jeff, is what can our listeners do

every single day to be better endurance athletes?

I am positive attitude.

I mean, life can suck sometimes.

Like it just can, right?

And it's just, you know, what are that positive attitudes?

Today, I get a bowl of frosted flakes.

Or for me, it's Diet Coke.

I am a Diet Coke addict.

If that means I got a really good Diet Coke from the gas station today,

it was just on point.

Like take the little things.

I think honestly, because when you're out there suffering in life in general,

you know, whether it's emotional stuff, physical stuff,

you know, I see, I see everything here in my clinic.

You know, I see feet, but I really see that, you know, we, it's the whole person.

And, you know, whether you're, you're just down to the dumps about something,

figure out what that positive thing is and hold on to it.

It can be anything.

And like, really find that positive thing in your life and go for it.

And just hold on to it and you'll make it through those dark moments.

And it will go away.

And you'll be not only a better person, but man, athlete, even if it's a five mile race,

there's going to be a moment in that five mile race that's going to be horrible.

And hold on to the positive.

Like that step was good.

That time, that foot didn't hurt or that, that, you know, I was able to get a better breath.

Whatever it may be, hold on to it and build off of it.

I love that, dude.

So good.

And I love how you bring those examples of like always finding something good in the day,

whether it is that Chris, that coke or whether you know, that amazing, you know,

that you had in an eight station after a top section.

I love burrito.

You know, dude, bro, like, I'm stoked for you.

A coke and I want to eat all this stuff because I mean, you saw it.

Like, dude, like those eight stations, it's like a, it's a feast.

Dude, I was at Jerome and I just wanted to eat the food.

Like, I was trying to be good and not eat their food, right?

And there's something they're going to like, these like pancakes was syrup.

And I'm trying to, uh, who, who was there, um, Kevin, I can't think of his last name.

Uh, Goldberg?

Yes.

So Kevin was sitting there.

And by the way, I'm really bad at knowing if people are like, well known, famous people,

but he was sitting there and he was just pounding these pancakes and waffles.

And I was like, that looks so good.

Like, I was just like, and then I met him later and I was like, oh, yeah, this is cool.

But like, yeah, like, enjoy the little things.

Mm-hmm.

I love that, man.

I wanted to see you enjoy all the little things on your 250 mile adventure, um, from Phoenix

to Flagstaff coming up in a month and a half.

And, uh, Jeff, thanks so much for, you know, not only coming on this podcast, but being

an amazing part of the everyday ultra community and also most importantly, for being an example

that, you know, if we want to go for big goals, we can go for them, right?

And, um, I hope that a lot of people listening, uh, you know, are inspired to go for those

big things and, uh, you really pity me that, man.

Thank you.

Really, really appreciate it.

This is amazing.

It's going to be party.

Let's roll.

Let's do it.

Let's do it.

Uh, so awesome.