Interview with Suzannah Weiss (w/suzannahwise)

Hello and welcome back to Thicc Radio, the award-winning podcast where we talk about gaining

fetism and everything plus size. I'm James. And I'm Tim. So let's get into it today. We're happy to welcome to the show Susanna Weiss.

Hello. Hi there. How are you my love? Good. I'm like getting paranoid. My lip stick is on my teeth. Oh, I guess it's nothing. I'm sorry.

No, you're totally fine. Your teeth look lovely and you look gorgeous sitting with us today. Listen, honey, are you ready to get into the conversation?

Mm-hmm. Abulous. Let's do it. So there's four hour listeners who maybe haven't come across you before. What's the first thing you would like our listeners to know about you?

I'm a writer and sexologist. I'm an author of two books on sexual empowerment. Eve's blessing and subjectified. I'm also a marriage and family therapist and sex therapist currently seeing

our clients for many things, including sex, relationships, neurodiversity, body image, and psychedelic integration.

Girl, that is a list and a half. I mean, I imagine through the years that you've been doing this work, you just sort of accumulate really through the experiences of mentoring and working with other people,

just sort of all these different factors sort of get pulled together. But how did you get start with sex and relationships?

I started writing about my own life on around 2014. I was working in marketing and I was bored. So on the side, I just started writing essays and blog posts about

my dating life and my sex life and specifically from a feminist lens, just what dating and relationships and sex are like in a world where women

are trying to empower themselves. And that was just something very relevant to me. So I started writing for many different online

publications and magazines and wrote my first book. I actually started it around 2017 and published, got the book deal in 2022. And yeah, now I'm mainly right books, but still have some

article writing as well. So in a lot of the work that you do, you teach women how to orgasm and emphasize mutual satisfaction. And I'm kind of curious, like what do most people misunderstand about orgasms and pleasure in general?

I think we have a very narrow idea of what orgasms and pleasure look like. I talk about this in my book, even if it's blessing, there's a chapter called Living Life Orgasmically, which is about how pleasure can be a way of life. And I spoke to a mentor of mine, Josephina Bashout, who talks about how we can add pleasures to our life, like drinking cacao or walking in the sand or just noticing the wind against your skin or the water against your skin in the shower.

And she calls this the orgasmic life or life is one giant orgasm. And even in the bedroom, I think there are a lot of experiences people have that are orgasmic, but don't don't fit the typical definition of a

literal or penal orgasm. There are people who can orgasm through thought alone or through breath, breath work or even through touch of places like the nipples or the neck, really everybody's different. And I think we have more pleasure when we use that

expanded definition. And I think research is still in its infancy in terms of just classifying all the different kinds of orgasmic experiences, also including orgasmic births is another topic I talk about in my book, even if it's blessing, there are people who give birth orgasmically, who have pleasure in childbirth, whether they have like a climax or whether the whole thing feels like a giant orgasm, because they're just so in the moment, and they use breath and movement.

To work through to move through needs is comfort, and they actually have pleasurable feelings. So I think the biggest misconception is just that orgasm is just one thing that happens in the clitoris or the penis.

Mm, I mean girl, that aligns with us. What we talk about with the podcast, you know, our community of people in particular, we're very big on bodies, you know, whether or not whatever size people happen to be at. So many of us are not the most generally driven people, but we love a bit of body worship.

We've even shared on this podcast, like we have each of us had the ability to make a man come without having touched nothing downstairs, because there is something about engaging in a body with absolute pleasure as the front and center, that where especially when a person doesn't expect that.

Oh lord, it catches them by surprise, but they love it because it is done with utter just joy in the driver's seat. God damn. So I, I love that this is a part of the framework that you work on, that this is in your book, Eve's blessing, and that there's some kind of literature out there that's beginning to touch on stuff like this, because part of the reason we have this podcast is people don't talk about the fact that there is more to the human experience than the expectations of genitals.

And something like this, I think, could really give people in our community some grounding. So listen, you're Eve's blessing, vice is out of ice, I would encourage you all, check it out wherever you'll get your books, and let us know what you think of the book, because I'd like to get some more insight into this orgasmic way of life.

I know that you also mentioned psychedelics, and I will be completely honest, they intimidate me. I did LSD once, and I hated it. So I've been very, very scared to do psychedelics again. I haven't even tried psilocybin yet, you know, like I have a gummy that's just been sitting there forever, because I'm too intimidated to take it.

But like how, how have they shaped your personal experiences, and you know, and how does it help you work with your clients?

So psychedelics have opened me up a lot sexually. I remember my first experience with touch free orgasm was after an eboga trip, which a lot of people don't know about eboga. It's a rude from a bush from Africa that takes you on a 48 hour trip, at least for me more. It's the most intense one, or actually, no, there's something called brugmancia that's even longer.

But yeah, it is like a very big deal, and I felt this complete renewal of all the cells in my body. It was just like every cell in my body was working toward health, and every sensation on my skin was more pleasurable, and I just got this idea.

And my head to search for a hands-free orgasm hypnosis recording on YouTube. I don't know where it came from just from the divine, I guess, and I put it on, and I actually was able to like have a real orgasm just by listening to this hypnosis type.

And I think that showed me how much of the limitations of our sexuality, our mental blocks about what's possible, or maybe we're stuck in our heads, and we're thinking about something else,

or we're not really receptive. And I've had a lot of experiences like that on psychedelics that have been, they just, I think, make you more aware of your body, and make you just make every, even if you're not on psychedelics, I think, even for me after a ceremony, or after a retreat, I'll get back, and I'm just more body aware.

And you can take that knowledge, and then you realize what's possible, and then you can learn other modalities like breathwork, or there are sex meditations, there's something called orgasmic yoga, that's like a combination of stretching and moving and masturbating, there's a lot of different modalities that just open your whole body up to pleasure.

Yeah, so I know a lot of people who have had sexual awakenings on psychedelics that then show them what's possible, and then they can gradually learn to do that without psychedelics.

I mean, so like as somebody who's intimidated by it, like, do you, what would you recommend as like a sort of very, like to really ease my way in, like, you know, like baby steps, you know, like, what would you suggest?

Well, a lot of people today, microdose mushrooms, as a way in, and there's a type of mushroom called ammonita that I believe is legal, that you can microdose.

Another thing I see a lot of people doing is ketamine infusions, which is also legal, and there are therapists now who actually work with ketamine and give you, like, pills with ketamine, it's a new world we're living in.

But I feel like mushrooms is the least dangerous. I think I wrote a study, maybe three people a year died from mushrooms or something like that. So, or cannabis, like, a lot of people also experience sexual enhancement on cannabis or even just cacao, which is unsweetened chocolate that you can drink.

It's not a psychedelic, but it is a bit mood enhancing and energy enhancing. So people are like psychedelics are too much they can try cacao.

Well, I never do that that you could just drink raw chocolate and it'll lift your mood.

Yeah, it contains something called P E A, which is a compound that promotes feelings of bonding as well as boosting mood, and that's why a chocolate is associated with Valentine's Day. It helps you feel more affectionate toward other people.

And it also is a bit of a stimulant, so just increases blood flow, including to the gen at all. So could could enhance, like, not not drastically, but could enhance sexual arousal and connection.

Okay. Well, I know what I'm going to make my feet or give me.

Give me a chocolate cake, then.

Yeah, you can get it at Whole Foods. There's a Navita sister brand. They have wafers and powder. Don't call me on that. I think that's the brand budget. Just look at Whole Foods.

You know, it's funny hearing this as well about like hypnosis as an element, right? Or the process you're using something like a psychedelic to kind of take you out of your own mind with your own

hang-ups and your own boundaries that you kind of place upon the self, and it probably really helps to free you from a lot of the trappings that we have.

You know, again, I feel like that's very much in alignment with our community, people who could really use something like that to help them have a sense of a breakthrough in experiencing pleasure beyond.

Firstly, what they know to expect, but also maybe in a way that's even a little bit healing.

You know, I think for many of us who've grown up in different bodies who didn't feel sexual or didn't feel safe at the time when we were younger, maybe there are still some of those hang-ups and maybe something like that could really help to bring someone through in a way that can feel maybe a bit safer than trying to use some of the other methods of people might be putting out there.

I know that I knew a guy who was trying to get me to smoke cigarettes, which I always thought was really weird.

Like, why do you feel that cigarettes are going to help me to, like, move past, and his whole mentality was like, people smoke cigarettes after, like, good sex and bad?

So, like, if you smoke cigarettes, it'll just, like, mean that you have to say, it was very weird. It was very weird.

And I don't know. I think I'd rather try the psychedelics. I think I'd rather try that.

Psychedelics can also change your philosophy on sex. I remember one of Bogotrip where I had this vision of me and a bunch of people having a sex party in the woods, and we were all carefree.

And there was, like, no competition or jealousy because everyone was just fucking everyone they wanted to.

And, like, and there was this sense of confidence I had.

I remember, at the time, I had felt insecure about orgasms and, like, my ability to orgasm with a partner.

And I just had this vision and this knowing that this was where I came from, like, this, I think it was almost like a hunter gatherer vision because I had read the book Sex at Dawn, which is about, like, sex among hunter gatherers.

And it was, like, this remembrance that I had this body that could, that was just, like, seeking all the sex and all the orgasms I wanted and not worrying about whether I would have it.

And it, like, it sort of coded something in me, like, that I was no longer so insecure or afraid because I was just, I remembered my love of sex and I remembered that it was designed to be a positive thing.

And it, like, that changed my whole life. Like, I remember after that ceremony, I just got on Tinder and was just, like, so confident and so excited to, like, experience my body's potential rather than questioning what its potential was.

I love that. And I want to circle back here for a sec, because one of the first things you share with us is that you write from me firm, feminist perspective.

And what I would imagine is that a woman in her power in this world doing anything, but not the least of which writing in her power probably attracts attention from inappropriate groups of men.

I'm thinking men's rights activists here. I would like to ask you, what have those experiences been like for you? How do you process that pushback? And what advice could you give on handling that kind of pushback?

The internet was a different place 10 years ago than it is today. I actually rarely get trolls today. I think I also changed my Twitter settings, which, you know, I just recommend just avoid it.

Like, there's no reason you have to read people's critical comments. Like, I have my Twitter settings. So I only see notifications from people I follow. I don't read comments on articles.

Like, a few, there were a few times like earlier in my career when like an article would go viral and I would get a lot of emails like you're such a dumb bitch or whatever.

People can be really mean or they'll really insult you. Like, you're so ugly and they'll tell you exactly why you're ugly. And just remember it happens to everyone. Talk to other people, talk to other people who are in the spotlight and you'll find out that it's happening to them also.

And yeah, I was, I was actually just talking to my friend Anastasia about this and she was like, because I, I had this tweet, go viral about consent that angered a lot of people.

And there were all these comments that were like, you have such a big nose and like all of it. And she was like, well, look, you're like a thin person, a conventionally attractive person, they're really reaching.

They're just nitpicking because they don't know what to, what to comment on. It really helps me.

No, absolutely. And thinking a little more broadly as well, because you touch on a lot of things around social justice.

And I'd like to inquire maybe a little more specifically here how, how you feel your work intersects with fat activism or critiques of fat phobia in particular.

Yeah, there is a chapter in my first book subjectified called my body size doesn't matter because I have a big heart.

And it's about my relationship with the body positivity movement and how it failed me growing up as an eating disorder survivor and being told things like, well, men like women with me on their bones or like, don't worry, you can still be sexy at any weight or almost like telling me it was good to gain weight because then I would be more attractive to men.

Which made me feel more objectified, which was related to the cause of the eating disorder in the first place.

Just feeling like almost feeling scared of that male gaze and feeling like weight loss was almost a way to protect me from it.

Then people were like, no, don't worry about gaining weight. Men love women with me on their bones, which makes me feel like a meal, like something to be consumed.

And so I looked into alternatives to body positivity and one was fat positivity, which is less about the male gaze and more just about people's right to exist at any size.

And some of it is about like that you can be sexy at any size, but it's also just like against weight discrimination and not so much about like women.

Women appealing to the male gaze, which even in some of the body positive ads, like you see there are curvier women, but they still have hourglass figures, they're largely white, the ideal still holds.

And then another movement that appealed to me was body neutrality, which isn't so much about liking the way you look, but rather knowing your body is a vehicle to get around in.

And it's important how your body feels and what your body does in more so than how you look.

And yeah, and I think that also is related to fat positivity that like no matter what your body size is, you can appreciate it for what it does for you and for how it feels to be in it.

Absolutely. You know, I think this is a good time to pause and reflect, you know, without community of people who are intending to put on weight, I think sometimes they can be the narratives where we lose sight that not everyone's motivations are the same.

And actually the importance of understanding the different movements within fatness, positivity is a beautiful thing for people who I think need some of that positivity, but much in the same way that all things must exist.

Like toxic positivity is always not going to be a good thing, right? Like it is good sometimes to frame things with a genuineness and an upliftedness, but sometimes it's not about that.

Sometimes I don't need to be positive about the situation. I need to be hurt for what it is. And as much as within our community, we talk about this all the time.

It is lovely to be liked for what we're doing and how we look. There are also times like in the middle of my work day when I need you to treat me like a person.

Please stop asking me things. Please stop talking to me like this. Please remember that I am the full figured, full human experience right here.

And so I think that's really important that you bring up these other movements, a fat neutrality that says, how are you in your body without motivation?

Are you truly a piece and how do we feel a sense of that balance? A movement I came across not too long ago was body sovereignty, which I thought was quite nicely framed.

The idea that you as the individual are the sovereign of your body as a nation and you know what is best for your body.

So people can of course advise they can give suggestions based on their thoughts, their own experiences. That's good for you.

But I'm the sovereign of this nation and I shall make the decisions based on what I feel is right, what feels best for me in the moment.

So I appreciate you bringing all that to the fore and I would like to encourage our listeners, especially for those of you who maybe aren't the most versed on the different movements that are out there, take the opportunity to do some reading.

Learn a little bit more about these things because I think a little bit of a broader framework may help a lot of us to feel more settled in the journeys that each of us are going on, no matter which way up the scale that goes.

I've also heard of body liberation, which is about like really inclusive, like you don't even need to love your body because it acknowledges for instance some people with gender dysphoria it's hard to love your body, but it's just about like.

Just feel however you want to feel about your body and do whatever you want to do with your body.

You know, considering your entire body of work, what do you think queer audiences might find particularly resonant or useful?

In my book subjectified, I talk about so I talk about the objectification of women in the context of language and how women are literally placed in the object role of sentences and not the subject role.

So we talk about men looking at women, men desiring women, men pursuing women, boy meets girl, we often use sentence structures or think of people in such a way that men are doing things to women.

And I think this is harmful not just for women and also for men but also for people who fall outside the gender binary or people who are queer because that leaves nothing for them like consent education is one example there's often an emphasis at least when I was growing up on like when a woman says no she means no and it's often directed toward men and there's often an assumption that the man is the perpetrator of the woman is the victim.

And this I interviewed some queer women who said well then how do I even how do I even discuss consent with the partner like we're not taught like how to have these conversations in a gender neutral way or even you know about sexual assault that occurs that is same sex.

And so I think I think that book will resonate with queer readers in that it teaches us to think outside that binary of men do things to women and instead just lets us craft our own sentences where we can stand wherever in the sentence we wish we can move around in that sentence we could create a whole new sentence for ourselves.

And I also think my book eaves blessing it has a chapter that is for and about the gender nonconforming community about how bodies outside the gender binary have been erased especially since around the 1700s when doctors started using what's called the two sex model where male and female bodies are considered opposites and intersect surgeries kind of came out of that people started actually operating on those who's not.

Genitals did not conform to male genitals or female genitals which is often unnecessary and even dangerous and also trans people and non binary people have a hard time getting health care the forms often have you fill out male or female and then you're put in a category in the database where like only females get birth control covered by insurance and things like that.

And a lot of doctors are just not knowledgeable about trans health care and yes so all of those issues I think will speak to the LGBTQ plus community also i'm glad that you brought that you brought up the book again because they're the chapter on body image emphasizes experiencing the body from inside rather than as something to be viewed how do you how do you recommend we begin practicing that.

Practice mindfulness which just means awareness of what's happening in your five senses what you're seeing hearing smelling tasting feeling so people can practice this in the bedroom if they are self conscious about their bodies they can think about what am I seeing what do I like about my partner's face or my partner's body what am I hearing or feeling that is turning me on.

Or even tasting or smelling and place your focus on that rather than on the way you look which is called spectacularing when you're like monitoring your looks or your performance so you can't feel as much because you're in your head and outside the bedroom is a good place to start practicing mindfulness like I said noticing things like the ground below your feet the water on your skin in the shower paying attention to things like the texture of food in your mouth.

The more you can get into that habit the more you can experience your body from the inside and appreciate how it feels and the less attention you will give the outside meditation is also a good strategy to just gain more control over your thoughts so you can be more present in your body.

I love all of this and especially as you mentioned about the needs for trans people in the way in which they'll get things from your work I think it's important for us to signpost that you know we know from our data points that we have a strong non binary trans listenership at least 10% I think Tim wasn't when we last looked at it just about so you know to our listeners out there who fall into those margins and categories again I'd like to consider these works and contemplate in ways in which that might benefit you.

Whether that's in your gaining journey and your transness because we would love to be able to compile a list of suitable resources for people as they go on this you know to help them feel more supported as they go on that and I love what you're saying regards and experiencing the body from the inside and the way ones rounds themselves.

I think is it also related to the five senses it's five things you can see four things you can like is it that rule as well do you think that applies in the situation.

That's one exercise that you can do to increase mindfulness when you may be in a thought spiral I sometimes use it with trauma survivors who experience flashbacks but mindfulness is more of a habit so that's something you might do you know in specific moments mindfulness can really be a way of life where you are always paying attention to those five senses.

100% and something to bring up here as well because you emphasize that's embodied consent which is making decisions from the internal sensation rather than from social pressure and do you have any suggestions on how people can cultivate that awareness in themselves a little bit more.

Yeah embodied consent is a concept that often because we say yes to sex do or notice sex due to external pressures like being afraid we're a slut or like being afraid we won't have another opportunity or like thinking well this is my partner we've been together for X amount of time we should have sex by now instead of having those thoughts we can practice tuning into our bodies and a good exercise to do that is to think of things that are non sexual so if you hate.

For instance waiting in line so you can think of that and then feel what you feel in your body maybe your heart's pounding or maybe you want to yawn or maybe your jaw is tense and then think about something you like such as going to the beach and then picture that and and feel what that feels like maybe your head feels lighter maybe your chest tilts up maybe your mouth comes into a smile and then think about things in the bedroom for instance do you like receiving oral sex and then think about that.

And then focus on how your body feels when you think about that does it feel more like yes or like a no etc and you can practice this in the moment sometimes I will actually say like if I have a new partner for instance and they're suggesting something and I'm just like hold on let me take a breath and just feel like what that feels like in my body and often I'll feel a little hesitancy often like some anxiety and I'll think you know I don't really want to do that thing but I want to do this other thing.

So I'm a big proponent of pausing and checking in with your body whenever you're presented with a sexual opportunity.

Tim I want to be here because I feel like with the pod sometimes there's the question of the more esoteric right the less obvious physical stuff sometimes and I feel like you're quite the defendant for a lot of those things.

What we're hearing right now with Susanna how is this sitting with you do you feel challenged by it do you feel a phone by it.

I mean a firm more than anything because like I've talked about like this sort of tantric elements of what we do in our community.

You know so like I and I've been with plenty of people now who are very specific about what they want in a sexual capacity you know and sometimes it's just attention to their body which I'm totally fine with providing.

So yeah I mean it's it's it's all it's all stuff that I never thought that I would become accustomed to because I just didn't foresee that shift in culture but it's it's a it's a really interesting.

Absolutely and you know I'd like to take an opportunity here to circle back a little bit because obviously we talked a bit about the different movements within fat liberation and within fat positivity.

Because I feel like Susanna you've said as well in the past is that really the the issue is that a lot of these movements are incomplete right that they touch on some real good stuff but that ultimately the regaps where they where they fall down and I'd love to ask you here what what kind of aspects of these movements do you think we need to see reinforced and made stronger made into made into something that makes the movement more whole for the people.

I think there's a lot of talk in the body positivity movement that is almost a subtle put down like I hear a lot something I've been told that kind of hurt me more than it helped me was like well you don't have to you don't have to look like a model or you don't have to be conventionally attractive or you don't have to meet the ideals.

And I think we're getting past that as a society that looking like a model means one thing I see especially with Instagram and only fans and different internet platforms I see all kinds of people being models I see all kinds of ideals being promoted I don't see there being one standard I don't even see like you need to be skinny anymore to be a model or to be like admired for your body.

And so I think I think this is like not necessarily a new movement but I think the way we talk about it should be less we're almost promoting an ideal as we critique it if we keep talking about the ideal that no one fits or the ideal that you don't have to fit because I actually think if you look at all the cultures around the world even even all the cultures within the US like I think there are so many different ideals we should acknowledge that like

it sounds cliche to say everyone's beautiful in their own way but it's true there is just many many different ways to be beautiful and none of us should feel like we're like an alternative form of beauty when like everyone is alternative to something everyone is unique to look at.

Totally we talk about this with gaining all the time you know we often promote the idea that because it's the opposite of diet culture that somehow we're exempt from all the body bullshit when couldn't be further from the truth we are all a part of the same

Capitalistic white supremacist framework we are still beholden to all the same trappings that everyone else does and so what of course people often comment on and observe is that who are the archetypes that become the most celebrated it is the people who regardless of the fact that this is our niche still fit the strongest ideal of white masculine male presenting hairy all of those tropisms and so people who for example on their gaining journey

don't want to become the largest person around the only one again a little bit people who have a typically feminine body again trans and non binary individuals often fall by the wayside their efforts aren't treated with the same respect black bodies are disregarded

you know I think that's so important to remind ourselves that there is so much more to the conversation on what is a good body than just whether or not you find it sexy

because sexy is great because it's nice to look at sexy things but that should not be the only marker of value that we put on a human being the fact that you are here occupying the space doing your best to feel in a positive direction about yourself when you can I think is already the thumbs up like you're here you already did the thing you know we don't need to be

putting caveats or moving the goal posts you know you know and and talking about the goals of body positivity and fat activism how do you think commercialization has like shaped or diluted those philosophies

brins mission is always to sell something so they generally want to make you think your body is not as good as it could be which goes against body positivity even if they say your body is great they're always going to say there's room for improvement.

So for instance there were these famous dove ads with that was showing larger women back in the early 2000s and it was part of this campaign real beauty but then the ad was for thigh farming cream so it sends the message love your thighs but from them up there's always this contradiction and so I wouldn't look to brands as the main example of what's body positive because they always have ulterior motives.

And what advice would you give for you know like like these movements that are meant to be so empowering you know like what do they need to do differently to avoid being co-opting.

I mean enlist actual plus size people people from a diverse array of races genders etc abilities and listen to your customers listen to feedback if something rubs people the wrong way don't.

Get defensive just change it and I think yeah I actually there was one ad that I mentioned in my book subjectified originally and took out because I was critiquing it then I realized I actually kind of liked it it was for the makeup company Mac and there was like a contest for the next Mac model and they showed a plus size woman who was just talking about how she had body image issues doing to be due to being labeled as overweight and she

you know it meant a lot to her to be able to show off the makeup and like know that she could be in that position and when I first thought part of me was like oh but they're still selling makeup they're still like showing that she looks better with the makeup but like at the same time it like it features her personal story and I liked that she got to tell it and that it was like heartwarming and emotional and wasn't just about her looks.

So I think that's also an effective strategy is to have people like like share from their hearts and then it's not just about their body.

Do you mean a little bit on some years but you know you mentioned before about you know just experiences with disordered eating and an eating disorder and you've been on a journey reclaiming your body as a subject during recovery and I'd like to ask you genuinely how did that happen?

How did that journey in particular transform your relationship with regards to pleasure and selfhood because I think that's something that members of our community could really learn something from.

Yeah this is a really funny story. I think my first hook up cured my eating disorder. I had like I had an experience I mean I did a lot of things.

It was ages 15 through 17 and I struggled mainly with anorexia a bit of bulimia as well and I did do residential treatment center but I felt like still somewhat symptomatic when I came out of it and it was really serendipitous.

I went on vacation with my family and fire Island in New York and at night on the beach I met a guy and he like I had never even had a boyfriend or like even been on a date and we started talking

and he ended up going down on me like all night and like didn't do anything else and it gave me this sense of how my body can be for me and how because I think as I said behind my eating disorder was this feeling of being objectified

and this feeling of like my body exists for men and it felt like a form of protection to be like too thin to be preyed on

and because sex was depicted as something scary in my childhood like something where women got used and to see like if you have if you are physically attractive to someone that's not necessarily going to lead to a situation that does you harm

in fact it could lead to an amazing situation that flips something on in my mind and I let I was less afraid of my own body.

And I think like as I started college that fall and just exploring hookups and exploring sexuality on my own terms contributed to my healing as well because again I was more focused on what my body could feel and what my body can do

and became less concerned about what it looks like and yeah I think when we are like when we are in a state of connection with people we're surrounded by people

and we're nourished physically through sexual or sensual touching connection we're just less vulnerable to any kind of mental illness because that's a great source of happiness.

So I think I think the two are very connected there is a big correlation between sexual trauma and eating disorders and there's been a lot written also about the connection between sex and food

and how like abstinence from food almost can make us feel like less of a slut like it more lady like. So the two things are very connected and I think as our relationship with sex

heals our relationship with food also heals and vice versa.

You know that definitely speaks to my own experiences. I was a hundred pounds soaking wet when I began on my gaining journey and you know nothing that I was ever diagnosed with

but the people know I've had some trauma in the childhood and I think salvation was a form of self punishment for me you know I didn't feel good in my body I didn't feel good as a human

and it is the process of engaging in food it's a form of love it's a form of you know I deserve to be here and so I'm going to eat the food and make sure that I see here

and I'm not going to shrink to take up less space I'm actually going to take up even more space so you can't ignore me right

like that has done so much yes on a sexual lens but for me like as a human with mental health it has been more healing than any of the therapy sessions that I tried to get myself to go to.

So I see an alignment there right I think it does so much more for us as people to develop good relationships and to allow ourselves to experience things in such a positive way.

This is wonderful wonderful stuff. I would like to ask you know there is I think I think a direct question here and things like.

How does you know because you are a sexologist how does sex education and sexology specifically view gaining in fetism if you know because I mean I've

looked tried to look at stuff I don't see a lot of guidance out there or a lot of feedback in the world about it so if you happen to know anything please do share.

I think if you said as another king that that is great if both people are excited about it and into it just whatever brings you happiness it's easy to judge.

But we're responsible for our own bodies so if you're not harming anybody else then like it should be no problem.

And that's it button like this like come on like that's fabulous gosh you know sometimes like the feedback from certain people with it just like it's secretly an eating and it's like baby don't like come on now.

The people know what they're doing we're all conscious adults we're all doing we're all doing the thing that we feel is right for us to do you know so I appreciate that.

So I would be curious because you share with us previously that you also model correct yeah.

So you shared a lot with us as well about you know that that theme of subjectified and wanting to you know decouple that male gaze and everything and I would imagine modeling probably has a lot of that attached to it as well.

I'd be curious to explore how does therapy and modeling kind of inform and challenge one another for you.

Yeah I think I had to work through that feeling of objectification and have that sense that I can be a subject before I could then return to actually like I do care about my physical appearance.

Part of it I think is living in LA the culture is very appearance focused but I think it's almost more honest I think all of us do care about our appearance so like I think there were two steps like subjectified was largely about just not caring as much about my looks and then I realize I do actually kind of I kind of am bothered by the way I look I don't like.

I don't like certain features of my face and my body and it does get to me and I do actually want to like the way I look better even though that's not the core of body positivity and I actually started modeling because I hated photos myself and like very much hated them and I wanted to it's kind of sad if you think about it like photos should represent memories they should represent like it's a way to show people who you are online like I didn't want to hide from that anymore.

And I realize that your mindset matters a lot and like I took much better photos of myself when I actually believed I look could look good in them and wasn't hiding from the camera and actually had a positive image of myself in my mind.

I also spoke with this man in Atlanta his name is Sky Wind who's a photographer and does nude photography workshops and he talked about how a photo like a painting like a drawing is an artistic representation of someone and it is normal like to take many photos of yourself and maybe only a few will look like you.

And to just it and to trust that like you are as beautiful as you think you are like that was like a mind fuck for me I'm like wait I think I look really good in the mirror but not in the photo and he was like you should just you should trust the mirror because honestly we're on works critics other people like other people whatever the best version of yourself is is probably what other people are seeing.

So I really worked on my body image through that and yeah and I think the way that I like try to keep that empowering is just being in charge and having a say in the photoshoots I do there are I use an app called model mayhem where there are some dudes with cameras who are just kind of like looking to take pictures of naked women and jerk off to them or maybe have the women jerk them up.

So I think like the empowering way to do it and I have done some shoots that were sexual I did one where I was masturbating up on a mountain top but like they were all kind of either driven by me or with my input with specific themes that I came up with or that I like who created with the photographer and so you can feel like a subject in that shoot even as you're an object of the camera lens.

Honestly hearing all this Tim this sounds very you yeah I would agree yeah so as a way to close out our conversation today we like to ask a fun question at the end and we'd like to know what food gives you life and what food brings you peace.

Well I would say it kick out for both I'm really addicted to kick out I mean addicted is a overuse of that term I just I have it I have some form of kick out whether it's like I drink a cow or I have like a chocolate bar every day so wait that's wait brings you peace and gives you life yeah I don't know which which let's do brings you peace because that it boosts my mood and gives you life probably sushi that's like my go to whenever I order food or eat.

Out because it's just it's such a simple feeling delicious food that like you can't go wrong with I agree I can totally agree and what would you like our listeners to take away from today's conversation.

The loving your body has many dimensions to it part of it maybe liking how it looks part of it maybe liking how it feels what what it can experience in the bedroom what it can do on a daily basis and yeah it's a very holistic thing

and your journey can combine all of those things.

Susan this has been an absolute root of a conversation thank you so much for joining us today.

Yeah thank you and please check out my books subjectified and expressing and contacts me if you're interested in psychotherapy or sex therapy or if you're not in the state of California coaching I can do.

Fabulous and if people were looking to purchase those books or to reach out to you where online might they find you at such handles.

You can find the books on Amazon subjectified or if there's another eaves blessing actually that's a novel so eaves blessing by Susanna wise.

You can go on my website www.suzannawise.com my Twitter Susanna wise or my Instagram is Susanna wise WIS should I spell Susanna wise or is it going to be ever.

No it'll all be down in the show notes so you'll go ahead to the show notes and check out our girl for more from today's episode.

But that is it I think for another week here on thick radio please remember to like and subscribe right as five stars and leave us a good review.

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Bye fats.

Let's talk about it.

Thick radio is a Spotify podcast artwork media design editing and production by James Hineson with original theme music by CYMK.