Killer Mom Trial VERDICT WATCH: Day 6 Of Deliberations, Will TODAY Bring A Verdict, Or End In Mistrial?

0:00This is an I Heart Podcast. Guaranteed Human. Didn't catch the latest Roland Martin unfiltered podcast? Here's what you missed. There should not be a single law enforcement agency. It does not have body cameras. It's real. Black farmers have been under attack. This is just the latest example of them just slapping DEI on anything. It's raw. And I'm sitting here going. They are playing y'all for foes. Catch Roland Martin's daily commentary on the Black Information Network. And download Roland Martin unfiltered on the I Heart Radio app Apple Podcast. Oh, wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Michael and Perry Oli. I want to tell you about my new podcast Underground Zero. We're looking at the opportunity of a lifetime for us and the other families. It's about the aftermath of the 9-11 attacks. What's in the tunnels? Go wash over English. It can be worth half a billion. Starring Steve Sherrippa, Ray Abruzzo, and me, Michael and Perry Oli. How far you prepared to go? Depends how far you were. Listen to Underground Zero on the I Heart Radio app Apple Podcast.

1:03Or wherever you get your podcasts. On Big Lives, we take a single cultural icon. People like Jane Fonda, George Michael, Little Richard. And we pull apart the story behind the image, discovering forgotten interviews that change exactly how we see these giants of our culture. We're here for the messy, the brilliant, the human version of our heroes. I'm Immanuel Jochi. I'm Kai Wright. And this is Big Lives. Listen to Big Lives on the I Heart Radio app Apple Podcast. Or wherever you get your podcasts. The new NFL season is here. And you should be listening to NFL Daily as we march along to Super Bowl 61. It is in the name NFL Daily. You'll have fresh content in your feed every day, all season long. That game winning drive, maybe it's Herbert, maybe it's Gino, maybe it's my homes. We'll have the highlights. If Fernando Mendoza or any of those rookies are ballin' out, we'll break down the tape. Join me, Greg Rosenthal, and an all-star cast of Co-hosts as we preview and recap every game.

2:03Listen to NFL Daily on the I Heart Radio app Apple Podcast. Or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Brett Coleman and I'm Trevor Sikama. If you love football and want to understand what's really happening on the field, check out our show, NFL Pro. Every week we break down the biggest plays, trends, and matchups using exclusive next-gen stats, insights, and NFL content you will not find anywhere else. Whether you're new to football, a fantasy football fanag, or a die-hard fan, NFL Pro will help you analyze the game like a pro. Listen to NFL Pro on the I Heart Radio app Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey there folks, it is Thursday, September 3rd, and maybe the sixth time will be the charm for the jury in the Lindsay Clancy trial with that welcome to this episode of Amy and TJ. They are going to get going, robes on what we can't believe, day six, and hour what. They're going to start on here today in deliberations.

3:04Well, I think by most accounts were in hour 29, and look, the big headline for the day is, is this the day we're finally going to get some sort of resolution. We know the judge has already sent the jury back twice after they said they were deadlocked. We believe that is the legal limit under Massachusetts state laws. So if the jury is willing to keep going, they can keep going. But if they come back again today and say, we can't make it work, the judge really doesn't have other options. So yes, folks, we are starting day six today. We are recording this just a little bit before they start their deliberations, supposed to start at 9 a.m. But this is robes potentially a day that is different. The reason this one is different is because the jury started deliberating at the end of the day yesterday with different instructions than they had had before. So they only got a little time with that. We'll explain why now, robes today could be different.

4:05Yes, because he gave them that to eat Rodriguez charge. And that is basically, it's controversial, but it's under state law. The judge is allowed to basically nudge, encourage the jury. Yes, and they've only been deliberating, I say only, for an hour and a half under that charge. Well, they give it longer, you think? I hope they would, because look, the seriousness of it, the way he officially described what he was asking them to do was at a higher level, a different level than perhaps the jury instructions beforehand. So one can only hope they'll take it a little more seriously and have gone into those deliberations differently with a more open mind. I'm thinking of it differently now. And we discussed it a little bit yesterday that maybe they went home, slept on it, going to come back in today, ask each other again, hey, after the night, after sleeping on it, do you feel different? Let's take a vote and see where they are.

5:06And then I thought we might hear from them again quickly this morning. You make a different point here. This jury has been taking this quite seriously, it seems. So it seems like maybe they would, okay, an hour, hour and a half isn't enough time to discuss and consider with these new instructions. Does that make sense? Yes, and so I think that is the hope by all sides that the jury is actually going to be deliberating through a different lens after having received those two e-rod regas charges. And like, I have a couple lines just because it was what? I mean, it took him a couple of minutes to read these charges that are written in Massachusetts state law. But some of the bullet points or the big points for them was that they should consider that this is desirable that the case be decided. You should consider that you have been selected in the same manner and from the same source as any future jury would be. So really asking them to consider that if they were to have to do this all over again, the next jury would be no different than the jury they're currently sitting in.

6:11Not going to be any better people and any smarter people with any different evidence that they're going to be sitting here in the same spot. So you might as well get this done for us. Exactly. And the other point was to look at it from the position of giving each side. So if you're in the majority, consider what the minority is thinking. If you're in the minority, consider what the majority is thinking. In conferring together, you ought to give proper respect to each other's opinions and listen with an open mind to each other's arguments. So that was the language that this jury heard. So yes, there's an acknowledgement that there must be frustration. There has to be frustration. To be sitting among 11 other people, we don't know what this split is. We have no idea if there's one hold out, if there are three holdouts, if there is a designated majority, are they split down the middle six to six? It could be any number of different scenarios. We don't know. We have no insight as to where they are.

7:15But clearly, hearing from reporters in the courtroom, the jury actually, they described as looking as though they are frustrated. And that's understandable. You don't remember we were watching when they came back at four o'clock and asked to leave for the day. And so we know they deliberated for another hour and a half under these two instructions. Do you remember I said, oh my god, who just sighed. I was a loud, audible sigh. I actually saw in some of the reporting. There are a lot of live updates coming from the courtroom. They said, Lindsey Clancy, let out a massive sigh right after the jury was relieved of their duties and they left for the day. And we just, she said the jury was gone. And she just let out a huge sigh. And that kind of was how all of us are feeling at this point. I mean, robes, this is tough work. I don't envy that jury at all in the work they have to do. But robes, if it's any, why would we think it's not the exact same type of debate that's going on in the country right now?

8:21Those folks are bringing their own experiences. You've got mothers, grandmothers, maybe nonmothers. You've got three men on that jury from all walks of life. So yeah, they bring their own experiences. You cannot find 10 people on the street right now who will agree. I agree with that. That is, and that is notable. I'm sure many of you listening have had these conversations with your friends, with your family members. And I bet not everybody agrees. And so yes, you bring to the table your experience with parenting, whether your mother or a father, you bring to the jury room, your experience with mental health issues. Have you experienced them? Have you had postpartum issues? Do you know someone who you love and care about? Have they had experiences? All of that is going to be the lens in which they viewed that expert testimony through. And the experts couldn't agree. So why should the jury? Yes, that is, that's where it is for me. But they can't even agree on manslaughter. Like they can't split the split it here. They like they won't even agree to that after six days.

9:26I can't imagine anything else. Yeah, if you have people who absolutely believe that she should and must be behind bars, the manslaughter charge is a little iffy because there is a huge discretion allowed to the judge at that point. So now you have to say, am I okay with handing this over to the judge in terms of how much time she should actually spend if any behind bars? I'm going to ask you this one more time. I think we got into it at some point about this. And I can't figure it out. Is it more likely that someone refuses to budge from the first degree murder camp or from the not guilty by reason of insanity camp? After all that I have read and looked at and all the comments I actually believe that it's just my opinion that it's more likely that people or someone who thinks she absolutely has to go to prison. They're the ones who are the holdouts because you can't give in manslaughter because manslaughter is now handing over the discretion to the judge. So second degree they can't agree on because that would have to be it right. You could compromise from first degree to second.

10:33You could but if you've got the other folks who might be willing to go to manslaughter who believe she's not guilty by reason of insanity who don't want her to serve anytime they would only probably be willing to budge to manslaughter. And the first degree folks might only be willing to budge to second degree. Are they and they're not negotiating or talking evidence are they negotiating their feelings at this point? Absolutely negotiating their feelings because the evidence doesn't actually I don't think give you any actual foundation because you can take the evidence and make it apply to your personal viewpoint because there is evidence that supports a viewpoint that she should never go to prison. And there's evidence that supports the viewpoint that she should go to prison for the rest of her life. So the evidence that was supplied in that courtroom you can absolutely use and I think fairly so to prove that your viewpoint is the right one. Oh man. And that is the problem and that's why I would think if this thing does end up in a mistrial that the prosecution has to acknowledge they're going to end up in this same place.

11:43If you look and you hear and you see and I know the judges telling that jury that's not the case but how is it going to get how are you going to get a different outcome? How are you going to put 12 people in a room who are going to all agree? I can't imagine that they would. They'll try to maybe get a plea deal something that gets worked out to where there is a minimum amount of time she has to stay in a state hospital. Why? Who's going to do this again? And that's what the hope would be if they can't actually reach a verdict. And they were going to be pissed because why didn't you all just do the plea deal in the first place? Like why do we have to go through all this? You all insisted on putting her right? You insist on putting her to jail for the rest of her life. That is their argument. Yes. Yes. They want the prosecution wants first degree murder. So how could they ever come back and make a plea deal that doesn't include serious prison time? If you are willing to, you're now saying, you know what? This first degree murderer. Well, maybe they can agree on a manslaughter conviction and then let the judge decide the sentence.

12:48This is bad. We were just, we were, well, why don't I go out and say this? Because even in a plea deal, the judge gets to determine the sentencing. So that would still end up in the hands of the judge. Each side can recommend and then the judge decides. So that could be where we end up. But when we come back, look, we were watching as Kevin Reddington, Lindsey Clancy's defense attorney who I'm sure you know his name by now. He is now a household name when he left the courthouse yesterday, he filled in a lot of blanks that you're going to want to hear, including what a mistrial still be considered a win for the defense. Didn't catch the latest Roland Martin unfiltered podcast. Here's what you missed. And the argument is, do you want to win if you don't win, you have no power. It's real. Those are the very people who I always say vote against their own economic interests and they complained about the very thing to receive.

13:50It's wrong. I knew that the issue of transgender athletes was not going well with a lot of black men. I went off. I said, this is exactly what I'm talking about. You all go scream as Chanel, but you don't want to see a black luxury company in the same bag. Catch Roland Martin's daily commentary on the black information network. 12 seats. Those are moving south. So if you Democrats, you don't wait to 2030, you better be hitting the ground going to heart in the south now. The new NFL season is here and you should be listening to NFL daily as we march along to Super Bowl 61 last year. We had Mike Bickdotto, Sam Darnel on the field after the game, but that was last year. If you're a football sickle like me, NFL daily is your kind of show.

14:50It is in the name NFL daily fresh content in your feed every day all season long. Matthew Stafford coming off his MVPC on a dazzling darts from Matthew Stafford. Big time trades that shake up the NFL. And of course those Seahawks trying to run it back and win another Lombardi trope. The Seahawks win Super Bowl 60. They are bringing Roland Martin back to the Northwest. If it's happening on a football field, NFL daily will cover it. Listen to NFL daily on the I Heart Radio app Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast. That call was really pivotal for me. Hey, it's Emily Tish Sussman and this season on She Pivots, the podcast where women share bold career moves and personal turning points that changed everything. I sit down with culture shifting women who share their pivots like Para Olympian Alley Truett. I was like, I'm on out from a shark attack. There's no way in 11 months I'm making the very long text advocate Elizabeth Smart. I still feel that drive that I can still make a difference. So I'm going to keep going.

15:58Celebrity chef Carla Hall was that scary to walk away from such a stable career after just two years? No, I was more afraid of being unhappy than I was broke and in a dead and job that I didn't enjoy. And feminist legend, Gloria Steinem, all of us were trying to express women's real lives. We need a meeting place of our own. And if I can contribute to that, I'd like to maintain that and leave this house for that purpose. Listen to She Pivots on the iHeartRadio app Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Britt Coleman and I'm Trevor Sikama. If you ever watched a game and wondered what really made the difference beyond the final score, that's exactly why we created NFL Pro. We've got a man wide open. Touchdown! Stay locked! Every week we use exclusive next-gen stats insights and NFL content to break down the biggest stories, matchups and moments from around the league. We go beyond the box score to uncover the numbers, the tendencies and details that help explain what actually happened on the field.

17:02Fires it out and the flat to Barclay who beats one man spins past another, leaps over a throw. And don't worry, this isn't just a show for stats experts. We use advanced analytics to help tell the story behind the game, turning the numbers into insights that every fan can understand and enjoy. So whether you're a casual fan learning more about football or a hardcore fan who can't get enough analysis, our goal is to help you see the game in a whole new way. If you've ever wanted to know why a playwork, how a matchup was won, or what most fans missed on Sunday, NFL Pro delivers insights you simply can't get anywhere else. Listen to NFL Pro on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. Dear Hunnies, this is goodbye. In February of 2024, celebrated illustrator and children's book author, Patre Mathers, and her husband Michael, nailed letters to dozens of friends and family members to let them know that they had died by suicide.

18:04By the time you get the shalliter both Petra and I will be dead. Next stop, Wonderland. Patre and Michael were by all accounts healthy, happy and in love. Why did they do it? And what did it do to the people they left behind? I would have given a million reasons to not leave this world had I known. I keep coming back to a truly hope that Patre was a thousand percent on board with the plan. Do you think of him as having killed her? Yes, I do. I hold Michael responsible for my mother's death. I'm Leon Nevock. And I'm Alice Gregory. Together we set out to interview everyone who got one of Patre and Michael's letters. And we're going to have a married couple trying to understand another. Listen to death of an artist on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome back everyone to Amy and TJ. Look, we have seen the throngs of press surrounding Kevin Reddington grow each day that we are left waiting and wondering where the jury is.

19:13Yesterday it was the most I have ever seen surround him and he did take a slow walk to his vehicle. And you know, I forgot the answer because you told me right off the bat because he's so quick on his feet that one of the members of the press asked him. Did the jury look frustrated because that was the reporting throughout the day and he had a clever answer back. They looked amazing. That was it. He didn't give no judgment. That was just that's well played. They looked amazing. And then he went on to say this. He said they are a tribute to the system and nobody can say that they haven't given it their all. Give him a hand, man. Yes, in their deliberations, but Roge Hart goes out to these people who are required. We could turn the TV off. We could fast forward through some stuff. We could skip if we wanted. They had to hear it all, baby, and pay attention and take notes and go home. And remember those images of autopsy photos of a five, three-year-old and eight-month-old. That's what they've been dealing with, babe.

20:16So my hats are off to these folks on that jury. Yes, because you know what I am grateful for? I am grateful that I never had to hear that 911 call because that's something you can't unhear. Every time you see a baby, every time you see those exercise bands, those jurors I guarantee you could be diagnosed with PTSD after everything they've had to see in here. We haven't focused on this enough, maybe. We should anybody attacking this jury. You got to give these folks a break for what they've gone through. There were several times this judge stopped the trial because the jury was all shook up over what they had seen and were emotional. Well, these folks have been through it. They certainly have. And it was interesting what Reddington had to say about the two-way instruction that the judge gave the jury around 2.30 p.m. on Wednesday. He said, it basically tells you common sense that if you're in the majority, listen to the minority and vice versa. And I think they listened to that.

21:20So he seemed a little hopeful still. And you mentioned this and I thought this was just his positive attitude that we've seen him employ throughout the trial. He was asked if there is a hung jury, you know, what are your plans? And he said, I want to try it next week. He said, I got a few motions to file, but I'm ready to go next week. He was quick when they asked him, how soon could you be ready? Next week he said, didn't pause. No, and I think, you know, look, for those who, whatever you think about Lindsey Clancy, everyone deserves a, not just a good representative, but certainly like a, you want to have somebody who knows what they're doing defending, whoever is in that defendant seat. And she certainly, I don't think anyone could say Kevin Reddington has done anything but fully represent that woman. And I thought this was to me one of the more poignant and I think what he had to say when he was asked

22:21would a mistrial still be considered a win was one of my favorite things he has ever said because he brought it home and he made the point that this trial, we all want to, some people look at it as entertainment, some people are looking at it just to have skin in the game and to be on a side and to feel like they belong because they believe this, that or the other. When a reporter asked him would a mistrial still be considered a win for the defense? Listen to what Kevin Reddington had to say. I don't think this case is a victory period. It's a tragedy. It's emotional destruction all around. These jurors alone had been through a very, very traumatic event. And as a hero, I think he's sincere when he said there's another 16 people out there we're going to have to put through this again. Like there is a concern for citizens, for those folks who have to sit through this. Yes, he has a client he's representing. But Rob, this is, nobody is going to and nobody is going to raise a glass at the end of this no matter what the outcome is.

23:23We're just not. There's hope that we can have a better conversation moving forward and actually action of some kind. Maybe the next time a woman goes in to see a doctor who's complaining about something because of this case that doctor elevates it pays a little more attention to just one woman. Then that's worth it. That is the only solace, the only victory you can take out of this maybe ropes. But yeah, this is, there's nobody is going to win no matter what those jury says. And I think that is just an important thing to remember throughout all of this as people's emotions are running high based on what they think the outcome should be. I just thought that was a really important reminder of what we're actually talking about and what we're actually dealing with right now. But we will continue to keep our eye on that Massachusetts courtroom. So please continue to keep your eye on our feed because we will jump on if anything develops. So please just consider us your source in that courtroom. We always appreciate you listening to us everyone. I'm Amy Robach alongside TJ Holmes.

24:26We will talk to you very soon. We will talk about Apple Podcasts. Oh, wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Michael and Perry Oli. I want to tell you about my new podcast Underground Zero. We're looking at the opportunity of a lifetime for us and the other families. It's about the aftermath of the 9-11 attacks. What's in the tunnels? Go boss of a engage. It can be worth half a billion. Starring Steve Sharipa, Ray Abruzzo and me, Michael and Perry Oli. How far you prepared to go?

25:27It depends how far you are. Listen to Underground Zero on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. The new NFL season is here. And you should be listening to NFL Daily as we march along to Super Bowl 61. It is in the name NFL Daily. You'll have fresh content in your feed every day, all season long. That game winning drive. Maybe it's Herbert. Maybe it's Gino. Maybe it's my homes. We'll have the highlights. If Fernando Mendoza or any of the rookies are ballin' out, we'll break down the tape. Join me. Greg Rosenthal and an All-Star cast of Co-hosts as we preview and recap every game. Listen to NFL Daily on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. On Big Lives, we take a single cultural icon. People like Jane Fonda, George Michael, Little Richard. And we pull apart the story behind the image. Discovering forgotten interviews that change exactly how we see these giants of our culture. We're here for the messy, the brilliant, the human version of our heroes.

26:27I'm Immanuel Jochi. I'm Kai Wright. And this is Big Lives. Listen to Big Lives on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. In February of 2024, celebrated illustrator and children's book author, patron authors and her husband Michael, mailed letters to dozens of friends and family members. To let them know they had died by suicide. Dear Hunnies, this is goodbye. By the time you get the shalliter of both Petra and I will be dead. Next stop, Wonderland. Why did they do it? And what did it do to the people they left behind? Listen to death of an artist on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an I Heart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.