Michele Carson

0:00Hello everyone and welcome episode 529 of the True Crime all the time podcast I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in true crime might Gibson. Give me how are you? I'm good. How about you doing great. Yeah, and we got a lot that's already out this week. Yeah, we're recording this very early But it's not gonna come out to a Thursday But a lot of good episodes out there make sure you check them out New Patreon episode if you're not signed up for patreon now's a great time to sign up All right, buddy. Are you ready to jump right into this episode of True Crime all the time? I am we're talking about Michelle Carson and the late fall of 2010 Michelle Carson and her best friend went to Las Vegas to blow off some steam before finishing graduate school Michelle chose to remain in Vegas when her friend left and then days later her body was found buried in the desert And you and I have talked about it a couple of times I had never been to Vegas until I was like 50 years old and now I've been twice in the last three or four years

1:04Right because they've had crime con that's there. Yeah, and I'd always wanted to go although I'm not a big drinker I'm not a big gambler, but I really like Vegas number one. I love food you do and Vegas man has some great food You're a foodie. It's not cheap. It is not but they have some great food. They also have some amazing shows Oh, yeah, so I would go there just for that. Yeah, you like those one type of shows. I know The the risque the burlesque no my family and I would like the Cirque de Soleil. Yeah, I'm believe good stuff Michelle Carson grew up in Walnut, California She was the daughter of John Carson and Esther Daly, she grew up with her two older brothers Kevin and Daniel Michelle met her best friend Vicki Rohas in the fourth grade and her interview for the show killer among friends Vicki recalled that she had done something to upset Michelle and Michelle threatened to beat her up after school

2:07Vicki's older sister found out and threatened to fight Michelle the school counselors discovered the conflict and told Vicki and Michelle They needed to resolve their conflict and befriend and then ever since that time they were inseparable It's almost like my first week at work when I worked for you Mm-hmm We had that big showdown when I was gonna fight you and then all everybody had to step in because they didn't want me to get fired and And I thought oh, I've made a terrible mistake and hiring this man Because the first weekend I want to pound him now. I'm just kidding how many times did you have that thought man? I made a terrible mistake about hiring this guy never never never not even once But it's a very interesting story they really is of how two girls became best friends I also kind of think maybe that might have happened in your life I don't know you had one older brother and one younger brother. Oh, yeah, right? So you know did your older brother ever have to come to your rescue?

3:10Did you ever have to come to the the rescue of your younger brother when? Somebody wanted to beat them up or somebody wanted to beat you up. That's a that's a yes both directly I figured it was. I mean, you know when you're a sibling You kind of got to watch out for your younger brother or sister as much as you know as you grow up Sometimes you don't like your siblings, you know, but you still have to protect them. Yeah, because at the end of the day There's still your sibling. Yeah, well, you know me. I'm an only child, but I've always heard that You know, you're the only one that can be mean to them. Great You can't let somebody else do it, but doesn't mean you're gonna treat them great, but Be damned if somebody else is gonna do it family family eventually two other girls named Alexis and Amanda became part of the friend group Which lasted after Michelle's high school graduation in 2003 and then into early adulthood You probably had your little friend group didn't you? Yeah, and I still do yeah, I am still friends with a lot of the people I went to

4:16High school with I'm actually More so friends with them than I am with the friends. I'm aiden college, which is not true for everyone Well, that's that's you're right about that. Now is this the group that you used to do golf outings with? Yes, yeah, okay So we did golf outings every year Until I got to the part where I couldn't play golf anymore I'd still be going if I could play golf Her friend said that Michelle was the strong protector protector of the group. I get that. That's probably you I mean just wearing the singlet alone. Yeah kind of tells other people Don't mess with this group. Yeah number one. I may not have it all together so steer clear just Crazy Saturday night. Yeah, my buddies with my singlet on yep. Yep No cup. No nothing just free ball showing what God gave you Michelle was a criminal justice major at Cal State Fullerton

5:18It was here that she met her boyfriend Justin Burke Justin played basketball from the school For the school from 2004 to 2007. I guess he had to be pretty decent if he played for Cal State. Yeah, I mean, it's not a huge Basketball program, but it's not terrible. I mean, that's that's pretty good I mean if you play at the college level you're decent, right? You have to be I think so get to be pretty good Yeah, Justin was the son of former University of Nevada lost Vegas basketball player Michael spider-man Burns who played college basketball in the late 70s and early 80s and Justin had been a top 200 high school product just like I was but not for basketball. Yeah for what not really supposed to talk about it Top two what you have never been top 200 in anything in your life except for the number of free meals that you've gotten

6:19You are definitely in the top two high top water there, but that is impressive, right? You think about how many high school basketball players are Out there oh man because it's not just the US they'd rank Canada and other places as well. Yeah, that's that's saying something that is Justin and Michelle were on again off again for about five years from the outside It seemed like they were happy, you know loving couple Michelle's friends though took notice of their frequent Breakups, but they didn't think anything was seriously wrong and I think a lot of you know couples go through that Okay, they break up they get back together You know at that friends like that you're like wait, what you and Kim aren't together now? Oh, okay the next day you are Yeah, what's going on? What's happening here? I think you know sometimes people What's the word? And they jump right they jump too quickly they get upset

7:23But then they quickly realize hey, I really love this person. I can't live without this person. I think that happens a lot Sometimes I think people like drama too. Well, they really do some people do The problem here is though that Justin had been violent with Michelle in the past According to the San Gabriel Valley Tribune He slapped Michelle Sources didn't explicitly state this, but it seemed that Bikki was one of the only people if not the only person who knew about the problems between Michelle and Justin You know, that's a lot of shorter right there, you know, it is and I think It's probably not that unusual, you know, how many times do we talk about? You know a couple looking Too perfect or you know from the outside looking in it seems like they have it all they're in love But you just don't know what's going on behind closed doors Unless

8:23Somebody chooses to confide and it sounds like Michelle chose to confide in her close friend Bikki Bikki never discussed Michelle's private life with anyone. She said I was like her secret diary. That's a true friend, right? Well, that's a good quality to have and a best friend, right? If you're going to tell them something that you don't want Other people to know You got to trust them to keep that secret. Yeah, and they got to honor that Michelle once told Vicki that she and Justin got into an altercation Things got pretty heated and Justin pushed her against the wall and put his hands on her neck That stuck with Vicki throughout the years, but she never thought to break Michelle's trust by Telling someone Vicki recalled that she did once tell her friend Michelle if something ever happens to you Do you understand what I'm gonna have to tell your parents? Well, and it's a good point It's also a very tough place for her to be in yeah, you kind of parked her in that uncomfortable zone, right?

9:28If she betrays Michelle's trust That's gonna wreck the friendship, right? But she loves Michelle and wants to look out for her and really once maybe someone else to know this because She doesn't think it's right and obviously it's not right. No, it's not no man should ever be you know pushing A woman up against the wall putting his hands around her neck slapping her in the face. That's we know that's not right Michelle graduated from Cal State Fullerton in 2008 and decided to go to graduate school Justin dropped out of college By 2010 Michelle seemed like she was on the right track for a successful career Once she earned her masters she planned to work with young people to help them avoid being trapped in the criminal justice system I was like she had a plan. Yeah, and it seems like she was working towards that and And it sounds like it would probably be a pretty fulfilling

10:32job. Yeah, I think so or career Justin had played for a pro basketball team in Portugal, but was let go By 2010 he was living in Las Vegas couch surfing and had no job according to A&E couch surfing Remember those days I do know no I've never couch surfed at anybody's house recliner surf Oh, no, nothing always had a job always had my own plays. I did too. I know I wouldn't know what to do if I had time to couch surf Well, first of all nobody would let you stay in their place sleep on their couch Nobody wants me But here's the thing I want to talk about right we we did talk about how Good of an athlete Justin was you know top 200 prospect And that can lead to a lot of great things But obviously it didn't work out for him in college. I said it right he dropped out right and then What happens when you don't make that right your dream of playing basketball and getting paid to do it

11:38And you don't have the backup which is getting the degree or you know all that now you can make some good money playing overseas Yeah, I had some friends that I played with that made You know over half a million dollars a year playing in the European League playing overseas. Yeah, it's good money Yeah, but it only lasts for so long exactly. It's not A long-term solution. No, it's not like you're not LeBron James making 56 million dollars a year right Okay, if I played one year I'd be like oh, I'm good. Yeah, just retire No, but you know those guys make so much money. Yeah, that they don't really need anything to fall back on No, as long as they invest right yeah now there have been College stars who get drafted very high. I can think of the one guy from Duke He got in a motorcycle accident his Rookie year and he never played basketball again. I don't think or he never was at the same level

12:43So he made some money, but that was it. Yeah, and he didn't he but he fell back on broadcast At least he had his college education or he went back and got it. I don't know yeah a lot of those guys leave early But they do go back and get it. Yeah, I've heard even a guy like Steph Curry. Yeah as good as he is He went I think he went back and got his degree. Why not which is pretty cool At one point Michelle was living with Justin and Vegas, but Michelle moved to West Kovina, California To live with her father by the summer of 2010 It seemed like Michelle and Justin were broken up for good in the fall of that year Both Michelle and her best friend Vicki Rohan's were looking forward to finishing graduate school And that's a big accomplishment, you know my daughter finished um last year That was awesome. Yeah for her. Yeah, and she got her first job Now she's under second year of that job. Yeah, I mean time flies But I was so proud of her

13:44For that However, Vicki recalled that around this time she felt sad and unsure of what to do next Michelle was the one who suggested a girls trip to Las Vegas to blow off some steam You know not wrong with a girls trip or a guy's trip You know those are kind of fun like we were just talking used to do some golf trips. Yes. I'm sure you had a blast We did we did always came back Uh Little hungover, but refreshed. Yeah, you know um I think Vegas is a great place to blow off steam. Oh, yeah It's also a great place to get yourself in trouble. You can get yourself in a lot of trouble Yeah, you can do that anywhere, but especially I think in Vegas. It's a lot easier there Yeah, because there's just so much available to you. What is known as the send city or just as send city I don't think they call it thus and So apparently they didn't have like a specific itinerary. Yeah, this wasn't like a pig in the poke

14:51You know itinerary where you got to be To certain places, you know, yeah, but they plan to go shopping lounge by the pool and just have a fun relaxing trip And that would be the definition of my wife's favorite vacation of all time That was to say that fits right up and her Yeah, that's in her wheelhouse, right? Shopping lounging by the pool So they arrived on October 26, 2010 on their first night in Vegas They went to the casino saw a show and went to dinner They spent the evening with Michelle's friend Amille who didn't live in Vegas, but was there for business Vicki noted that Amille had a crush on Michelle which was not reciprocate. That happens sometimes It does You know in a perfect world Each person would have a crush on the other. Yeah, right? And then you know something would happen but I think Very often one person is enamored with the other yeah, but the other person doesn't feel the same way about them

15:57You have the crushy and the crusher. Yeah Yeah, I don't know if they would use terms that way, but I get what you're saying The problem is then somebody's getting stuck in the friend zone. Oh, yeah, and you know friend zone Horrible not a fun zone. No, it's I It's not that you don't want to be friends I've just always felt like I had have enough friends. That's the way I felt like in high school I've got all my guy friends. I don't need more friends. I need that others. I need a girlfriend Well, you know that makes me sound like I never had one which I did you had plenty But I did get stuck in the friend zone too And did not like it, but then you have your wonderful beautiful wife for 30 plus years. Yeah So but that sounds like a good first night, right? Casinos show dinner. Yeah, how can you beat that? No, what else do you need that's Vegas? You know those pieces in your closet that you find yourself wearing on repeat the sweater that goes with everything

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18:03Get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns now available in Canada and the UK too That's q-i n-c-e.com slash t-c-a-t-t On the night of October 27th, they stayed out until 11 p.m They were staying in a suite that had two bedrooms and a living room Vicki was in her room But came out to the living room because she heard of noise She was surprised to see Michelle's ex-boyfriend Justin in their suite. Oh So You know already as we're into this episode We have two guys That I think we have to take no to we do right just him for sure because he's the ex-boyfriend. Oh, yeah Now come to find out he's in Vegas With them on what is supposed to be a girls trip all girls trip only and then we have this guy a meal Who they didn't go with but they ran into yeah, and it was said that he had a crush on Michelle

19:06But she didn't you know feel the same one Now Vicki said she knew justice was Justin was living in Vegas But Michelle hadn't told her that she was going to invite him over Michelle was still sleeping her room Justin told Vicki that Michelle mentioned she was feeling sad lately And I think I'm guessing she didn't want to tell her Because she knew that her friend would be like hey, this is supposed to be a girls only We can what are you doing inviting him Well, I think that's that's the one part of it the other part is Right Vicki's the only person who knows That he has been violent Yeah towards her so out of all her friends She's probably going to be the last person who wants to see this guy And then even in the same room. That's true together. Yeah, that's kind of my thought on it Vicki recalled that Justin was outwardly friendly, but she felt creeped out especially because he was quote

20:12Preaching to her about life he then told Vicki He was going down to the vending machine and left the room. Well, he probably didn't know Vicki knew everything That's true, you know, I guarantee you Michelle did not Share that with Justin. Yeah, because that wouldn't have gone over well At all Vicki went to check on Michelle because she just had this kind of weird feeling About her friend she peaked into Michelle's room and saw her chest rising and falling and thought to herself. Okay You know, I'm losing it. There's nothing to worry about. She's not dead And so she snuck out of the room Justin then returned and asked Vicki and odd question. He asked Do you think Michelle is a good person? Vicki replied. Yeah, of course. She's my best friend Right. I think she's a good person Michelle then entered the living area and asked Justin what he was doing and told him to leave Vicki alone

21:18Justin left their hotel It's just a very weird interaction really is First of all she shocked to find out that he's there Then she she has this disturbing thought that you know after he leaves maybe something's wrong with Michelle But she sees her breathing. Yeah, she's her chest going up and down But then this question do you think Michelle is a good person? That's that's such a A weird question to ask the person's best friend Even if she thought she wasn't a good person It's her best friend. She's gonna say Yes, she is a good person. Yeah, but why would you think your best friend's not a good person? Well exactly I'm just saying no you just said even if she thought you If if maybe she's I don't know Do you see how sometimes roads lead to nowhere? Somebody out there knows what I'm talking about oh there's only someone who will come to your defense believe me

22:22I understood exactly what he was saying Vicki didn't call or text anyone about Michelle meeting up with Justin and Vegas because She wanted to protect her friend's privacy She also didn't ask Michelle about it in the morning because she assumed they were getting back together again And I can't say it enough, yes, but I I really feel like Vicki is in a kind of a tough position here It is a tough position because if you want to complain about like you can't really say He's such an ass. You shouldn't be with him You know I was gonna get back to gas. I know I've been in that. Yeah I've been in that scenario. It's awkward where you don't like your friends Boyfriend or girlfriend. Yeah, but you have to be careful what you say about him because It might not be over for good exactly, you know, you know until it's like been sign stamped Double stamp sealed. I don't know Well, you can't triple stamp a double stamp. Oh, that's true. Yeah, it's not loud anymore. That's just that's just fact Yeah, by October 28th Vicki wasn't feeling well emotionally. She tried to have a good time

23:28She Michelle and their friend Emile went to dinner and a show, but Vicki couldn't stop crying She just felt this really strong sense of dread that only got worse as the weekend went on Well, that's a bummer. Yeah, it's terrible Eventually it got so bad she decided she had to leave Vicki hoped Michelle would want to go home, but Michelle decided to stay Vicki was disappointed because she just really didn't want Michelle to get back together with Justin yeah When Vicki got home She tried to give Michelle space to let her figure things out with Justin She also kind of hope that not texting her calling her friend would express her disappointment You know, that's that's can work sometimes it can it sounds like a strategy that I might try to be honest with you Yeah, I can see you doing that you know, just I'll just ignore you for a little bit for a little bit Let you wonder why no, you don't have to wonder you should be able to figure it out

24:31I don't need to call you and say hey, I'm disappointed in what you're doing the fact that you're not hearing from me Should tell you I'm not happy with what you're doing. Hey, that's only happened a handful of times in our relationship very rarely Really some other people in my life have experienced it more. Let's just say Someone's occurring. It's it right now also. I'm just saying it right now just because I say I do something Does not mean other people should try it? It does not always work out well for me it came back fire. I'm being honest about all of it so Michelle finally called Vicki on the night of November six 2010 Vicki was still frustrated So she didn't answer which she regrets. Yeah, of course now It's not her fault, right? We say that time and time again There's no way that she could have known what was To happen. Yeah, but there's also no way

25:34That you're not going to have feelings of regret after it does Investors believe that Michelle and Justin were attempting to give their relationship Another shot, but things didn't go smoothly The couple went out to dinner at the cheesecake factory on the night of November six They were seeing arguing that night. You know why? Because they were arguing like why is it taking you so long to pick one of the 500 things off this menu to order? I'm telling you what I I don't like the cheesecake factory for that very reason. Yeah, their foods. Okay. Yeah Their desserts. They're good. Yeah, it is a cheesecake factory. That's true. The problem is If you got more than 20 pages in your menu, you've lost me absolutely because now I've seen Multiple things that I might want to try and I can't decide you can be good about you can be good in a few things You can't be great as you know, that's the other thing. Yeah, right

26:36There's a reason why these iconic restaurants don't Have a menu with 150 different things on right, you know, this is what we do really well Take your pick. Yeah, keep it simple man. Yeah, I don't know if they've paraded down I stopped going to be honest with you. I haven't been there in years. I heard something about Bankruptcy recently. It would not surprise me And I'm not bad mouthing cheesecake actor. I just think it's it's bad execution. You just got too much stuff. Yeah, exactly The next day November 7th West Covina officers knocked on the door of John Carson's home and asked if Michelle lived there And if she was in lost Vegas John confirmed his daughter was on the trip and was informed that Michelle's car had been found abandoned with the engine running And she was nowhere to be found. So right there would scare the you know what out of any any father Yeah, at that point. I think that's easy for you and I to to put ourselves in right that position

27:40I've got two daughters. You've got a daughter in the sun I don't I would be speechless. I think you know I'm almost speechless right now, right because I just I don't even know how that would hit me I just know it would be It would hit hard. Yeah, it'd be a very sinking feeling Is what I imagine Another officer was dispatched to do a missing persons report John called his ex-wife Michelle's mother aster daily on In her interview for the show Killer among friends Esther noted that she and Michelle talked off it But she hadn't heard from Michelle that week. She texted her daughter and received no response John Carson called Vicki Rojas, but she didn't answer Michelle's brother Kevin drove to Vicki's house to talk to her Vicki explained that she didn't know where Michelle was because she had decided to stay in Vegas Michelle's family asked her

28:41Why she decided to come back early and this is where Vicki kind of had a difficult time. Yeah, you know explaining her feelings of Sadness this strange encounter with Justin Burns She recalled I remember wanting to explain what I had just experienced But it was dark and I've been able to like things straight I would have been able to tell her come back with me I regret not doing right and again. There's that regret right. You're gonna have it. There's no way around Yeah, you know, I can be a shake that by November 8th those close to Michelle were frantically trying to reach her Vicki called Michelle's phone provider And pleaded with the person on the phone to tell her the last person Michelle call It was Justin's brother who said he had no idea where Justin was. Yeah, so there's a couple of things there Number one That it's amazing that you know, they were able to get the phone company right to cell phone company to give them that

29:44But then to find out that Last call was to Justin's brother. Yeah, that's Strange and then he's saying he has no idea where his brother is. Yeah, some seems weird I mean at the very least you're not getting any answers to your questions. You're just kind of getting more questions I'm gonna say yeah, it's not nothing there is helping this situation. No, if anything is just making it even more cloudy On November 9th Michelle's family and Vicki drove to Las Vegas Vicki told them all about the last time she saw Michelle Her encounter with Justin and that when she left Michelle was asleep and seemed fine She said she was worried about Michelle getting back together with Justin You know all those secrets she held in now have to come out. Yeah, and I think you got to be Completely honest with the family at this point, right and not worry about As much about the consequences because they need to know everything absolutely right now because we got a real

30:52Tough situation going on Michelle's family went to the police station and they received the devastating news that Michelle's body had been found in the desert just outside the city Which is heartbreaking? Absolutely It's also you know the thing about Vegas that you notice Immediately when you fly in right Vegas is like this Kind of oasis and just surrounded by desert just desert everywhere And I think that's why in all the mob movies You know people get killed in Vegas and they are Driven to the desert and buried buried and forgotten and I don't Think that that's just a movie thing. I think that probably happened quite a bit. No, I do too I think there's make to think how many bodies are probably really out there. Yeah, it's kind of like the old You know New York thing, you know buried or thrown in the Hudson or whatever it was

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32:56So join the millions who are already banking fee free with America's number one choice for banking head to chime.com slash tcat that is chime.com slash tca tt sign up now it only takes a few minutes Chime is a fintech not a bank banking services and chime card provided by Chimes bank partners qualifying direct deposits required terms and limits apply go to chime.com slash disclosures for details Back on November 7th Target shooters in the desert south of Las Vegas Boulevard and St. Rose Parkway found a burned body under some rocks Investigators identified her as Michelle and determined she was strangled to death John Carson later told the Las Vegas review journal We couldn't even bury our daughter. There was nothing left. Yeah, I mean how terrible is that that someone burned her strangled her burned her

33:57But think about this family, you know, you go from Thinking something's wrong, right? Can't get a hold of your daughter To you know fairly quickly learning that she's dead and was murdered strangled and burned Yeah, I mean, it's bad enough that they burned her. I mean bad enough that they murdered her Yeah, but then they had to go to the next level and left The dad the mom with nothing. Yeah, basically but What does that say about the killer? Yeah, trying to cover their track. That's what I think yeah, right fire does destroy certain things or can I don't know why else you would want to do that other than You're so mad at this person maybe you want to Just figure them even further But to me it's probably more than likely about trying to erase Evidence right when the police interviewed Vicki. She initially wasn't thinking Justin was involved

35:02But the police were asking questions about him and wanted to know if he had ever been violent with Michelle And we talked about it, right? Vicki Never discussed Michelle's private life. Yeah, but she realized that she needed to share what she knew About Justin and Michelle's relationship. Absolutely. I mean How can you not you now know she's been murdered right? You're talking to the police the police are asking you about the relationship If there was ever a time To spill your secrets. It's now everything has to be out out in the open. Yeah, but I can also see why Initially she wasn't thinking Justin right because She went into check on Michelle she saw her chest Rising up and down yeah, and then Justin left. Yeah, now she did later leave and go back home and Michelle was there for a

36:03period of time, but you know, I could see why she might not have thought it was him at first and It turned out this was the first time Michelle's parents Were ever aware that there was violence in the relationship and that doesn't surprise me No, not at all. Yeah, Vicki's not gonna tell them. No, Michelle's not gonna tell them No, because if someone came to you You know your daughter came to you or your daughter's best friend came to you and said you know what your Daughter's boyfriend's doing That relationship the best that you could would be over. Oh, it's over. Yeah And that's why Most likely Michelle wouldn't want to tell her parents. Yeah, because if they're going back and forth right if they're on again off again Once you tell them that it's really gonna be hard for it to be on again right and for you to bring this guy around

37:03Almost impossible. It's impossible Yeah, no dad or mom is going to allow that or want this person in their house They're not gonna be happy with you Right for making what they think is a bad decision. Yeah, and there are some dads who you know Might take it even a step further Let's let's put it that way. Yeah, I know one of those John Carson had initially suspected that perhaps Justin was murdered too and was buried in a different location and that makes sense right They don't know where he is his brother doesn't know where he is and maybe they got robbed and You know somebody killed both of them at the same time, but they buried them in different locations. Yeah So detectives focused on finding Justin But they found out he had fled the Las Vegas area Cell phone record showed text between Justin and Michelle the night she was killed

38:03They had gotten into an argument and it appeared the Michelle locked him out of where she was staying It was a ping on Justin's phone Close to where Michelle's body was found and then after that his phone turned off and that is never a good sign It is not it's kind of kind of a tell Yeah, but I again, I don't understand how people don't know how cell phones work And that they're tracking Everything you do you know, let's go back to the Idaho College murder So, you know look at Brian Cobrager You know, they know He turned his phone off right and then at some point after the murders he turned it back on Now does it put him there? No that alone doesn't but I mean it might as well. Oh, yeah I mean, it's damning. It's yeah, you can't get around it. No

39:03I don't I don't understand why you just wouldn't leave your phone Some place yeah don't bring it with you and just not take it with you But again, we don't want people to know what these killers to to think like that we want them to get caught Sometimes I do think it's that Maybe they're not ignorant of it. I know he was and he was in uh he was in criminal No, it's right. He was in watch my barber. Yeah Why am I drawing a blank same thing that Michelle was in yeah criminal justice Yeah, that's what he that's what he was in So he knew about it, but I just think they think they're so smart. What exactly he thought he was smarter and he did He was a real yeah, horses that exactly. I just think he thought he was gonna you know Out smart everybody. Yeah, I'm with him. I definitely I just then yeah, I don't know On March 17th, 2011 Justin Burns was arrested in Jackson, Mississippi Where he had been hiding with relatives in early December 10

40:0710 We'll go with that then someone say how we didn't say the 2000 right I always say like the 80s Yeah, I don't say 1980, but I don't say what is it because you wouldn't say the 10s here No, no, you wouldn't but you would say the 80s or the 90s right yeah No, it's um I say in 2010 instead of 20 10 oh, okay, but I don't say 1,980 right I say 1980 I got and people always wonder why I say it like that. I don't know why I say it like that. It's just the way I say So in early December 2010 or 2010 however you want to say it a woman came forward to police alleging that Jason Burns Justin's brother told her boyfriend that Justin killed his girlfriend and burned her body in the desert The woman's boyfriend allegedly confirmed

41:10Jason Burns suspicions about his brother's involvement in the murder. Yeah, you know, it's gonna be rough to hear that your brother did something like that. Yeah, but He did especially if you don't think of your brother as as a murderer or not if you do maybe it's not that rough Maybe that's not hard to believe. Yeah, I don't know But again here, right you take your cell phone with you So you've got your phone pinging right and you're not a stranger. No How do you think police are not going to look at you as the On again off again Ex-boyfriend you are if not the first person that we're looking at you're right up there. Yeah, you're at the very top, right? So you have that and then you go and tell someone that you did it Come on now, and you're hiding out. Yeah You just you just everything you're doing is screaming guilty. Yeah, so It was also noted that in the weeks after Michelle's body was found

42:10Justin's father Michael Burns refused to cooperate with police regarding his son's whereabouts Police all also discovered through phone records that Michael Burns was looking for psychiatrists to help Justin In the wake of an incident with his girlfriend Okay, it's a little more than an incident. Yeah, I mean I get it, you know Parents want to protect their kids right or wrong and Sometimes they want to shelter them from You know doing what's right Getting in trouble getting in trouble, but it's a tough call. I mean it is you would like to say and I think everybody would No, I would do the right thing. Yeah, right every time But then you're looking at your son or daughter and thinking I don't want them to go to jail I don't want to lose them forever. Right, so Do I do I blame the parents? Yeah, I do because they're not doing the right things, but

43:14Can I also be honest and say I'm sure it's not the easiest decision for everyone right and I would say yeah, I get that So Justin was charged with murder prosecutors accused him of driving Michelle's car to the location where it was found burning her body And bearing her remains in the desert many people who knew Justin were surprised to learn of his arrest His college basketball coach Bob Burton said he was a really bright kid fun to coach She was never a violent person people really liked and I'm sure he was to these people Right some people don't Show their violence side to everybody You know, they might only show it to their partner true They might only show it to one partner. Yeah, or they might only show it to You know Females if you're a male with whom you're in a relationship with

44:16You may not show it with your teammates or other males And that's why sometimes people can't understand You know when they hear that this person did something so bad. They're like that doesn't sound like him Yeah, it's not that that's you know, we didn't know him like that But again You're if you're gacy You're not gonna show the violence side to all your neighbors. Oh, you're gonna have a picnic. Yeah, we're a Block party. They're gonna be an outstanding citizen. Yeah, I mean, that's just how I mean again We're not talking apples and apples here. We're talking serial killer versus this kid But I think the same rule applies in that and not just with killers Just people don't show all their cards to everyone. No, they don't In November 2011 friends and family gathered at Michelle's home in West Kovina to pay true Her life and to raise awareness for domestic violence John Carson said per the daily breeze

45:17We just want to raise awareness bring everyone's attention to how big a problem it is Rich poor middle class It touched everybody's life. Yeah, and that's the one thing about it It doesn't seem To miss any Segment of the population Right You know people can be abusers If they're billionaires millionaires Middle class poor it doesn't matter Spans at all it does Michelle's parents said they felt obligated to speak on her behalf According to John Carson she's been silenced Myself and my family will be the voice of our daughter Depression can destroy you. We didn't want that to happen That's not what our daughter would have wanted And it'd be easy to Delve down into depression. Oh, I think it'd be very easy. Yeah, right to just fall apart But I think this is what you see from a lot of families

46:18They're trying to process the grief And a lot of times they channel it into trying to do something good. Yeah, maybe in the name of the person that they've lost In this case array, you know raise awareness for domestic violence Help other people that might be going through the same thing. Yeah, absolutely Michelle's mother ester daily on said if we can save someone else that's what we want to do Michelle's parents acknowledge they'd never given much thought to domestic violence until they learned it could have played a role in their daughters death Justin had never given them a reason to worry But they later learned he'd been violent with Michelle and had slapped her Justin was polite and respectful when in front of them And I think a lot of these people that do this kind of thing. They're like that, right? Yeah You you would think and as we kind of already mentioned that they are a great guy You know, man. I love having them around

47:20You know the family and it's so much fun. Yeah, meanwhile You know they're doing things that they shouldn't be doing behind closed doors What you're not going to go over for Sunday dinner with her parents and let the monster out. No That's not gonna work. It's not gonna fly And I know it happens on both sides too. It does. I'm just saying him because In this case, yeah, it was a he John Carson said we had no idea Absolutely zero idea until it was too late. There was no way we would think he was that type of person In 2012 Vicki told the Las Vegas Review Journal that she wished she had told Michelle's family About the abuse when she was alive Vicki said I never thought it would get to the point where he could take her life or would take her life I think is what is the word she used but Again, I the position she was in it was not an easy one. Yeah, I don't know if any person that is

48:22Tied into domestic violence Realizes it could go as far as it has or maybe as far as it could That makes sense did does not As if it's already happened and they obviously would realize it could go that far. Yeah, I guess I I think in their mind You are you talking about the person who's experiencing it or in this case the person who knows about it No, the person in this case knows about it. I don't think they realize it could get as bad as it Yes, that I understand yeah, okay, yeah So I think the person experiences doesn't want to believe it's as bad as it is. Yeah, that that that would make sense Yeah Vicki said she thought she was being a good friend by keeping quiet She said I was the person who would keep her secrets, but some secret you shouldn't keep and man I just I think she's haunted yeah well for sure and I feel bad for I really do yeah in her interview for the show killer among friends

49:25Vicki recounted how at one point after his arrest Justin called her from jail He wanted her to remember the day she saw him in the hotel and to confirm That he was out of his mind that day she hung up on it. I would too Are you trying to use me to help you get some type of what insanity plea or something? Yeah Justin spent years using procedural delays to avoid going to trial He even wrote a letter to Michelle's parents, which her father said was full of excuses, but little accountability Yeah, shocking exactly John Carson did meet with Justin and asked him to take responsibility and stop putting off the trial On July 31st, 2017 Justin Burns agreed to plead guilty to second degree murder On September 26th he received a sentence of 10 to 25 years It's late. It is late

50:26Not happy about that, but you know what um, I'm assuming that uh, I'm hoping that the prosecutors talk to John and family and yeah, and we don't know all the details, but you know, maybe their case wasn't quite as strong as they Would have liked it to be I'm assuming that's why maybe they offered up the plea deal to second degree, but you know 10 to 25 years Although if you spend 25 years in prison that that is not a joke and no and anyway, but For what he did to her. Yeah, if he were to get out in 10 years It'd be rough. I would be rough. That's the part I don't like is that 10 years on the front end. Yeah, it seems About 20 to 25. Yeah. Yeah Feel a little bit better about that But Justin was denied parole in 2020 He didn't attend the hearing but John Carson still drove to Nevada and insisted the board of parole commissioners Allow him to make a statement and I'm assuming he didn't attend the hearing

51:31Because you know, it really um Well, I guess what would it have been eight years It was really like five years before he was sentenced. Yeah, that's a long time Because he really I mean he dragged it out for a long time so but he probably would have been incarcerated At the time he was denied parole for eight years So yeah, but You know that would have been a travesty if he would have been paroled eight years right On June 8th, 2023 Justin Burns died by suicide in prison He was 39 years old his autopsy listed his cause of death as Esphyxia due to strangulation You know It's hard to harbor those things that you do to somebody When you're living in a cell I have to think about that day in and day out I think it's hard for some people for some people not all people not all people But for some it is some people I think eventually it takes its toll or

52:34It's takes its toll for another reason that you can't stand being behind bars It has nothing to do with that. Yeah, what you did is just that you want your freedom It also Wasn't lost on to me that it's a little bit of a strange irony That they both died the same way Yeah, yeah, you know, he strangled her He has fixated her And then he esphyxiaated himself. Yeah, I don't know if that was intentional or I mean there There's not a lot of other ways I would think to do that in prison I mean, I think that's the most common way that you hear about people doing that in prison John told the Las Vegas review journal after Justin's death The rest of my life was going to be spent Keeping him behind bars. I don't believe in the death poem But I believe that if you're sick There's something wired wrong

53:35He's a loose cannon and I sincerely felt he would have murdered again a year after Michelle's death Her family told the San Gabriel Valley Tribune that learning about her experience made them want to bring more attention To the problem of domestic violence in 2023 her father reiterated that goal noting that understanding of domestic violence had improved between 2010 and and 2023 okay, and I think that's true. I think it's improved um Over the decade. I think so too to you know large degrees right more emphasis has been placed on it you think about um, police getting called Out for a domestic violence situation in the 1970s versus the 80s versus the 90s if you looked at it in every decade You would definitely see that it's handled differently. Yeah, there's much more emphasis now placed on it

54:39You know, they're not just showing up and then hearing a story and leaving Yeah, like they used to it. It's not gonna happen If If somebody's got some proof if somebody's got some marks One individual is gonna go anywhere. Yeah, well at least one has to be taken even if they both decide they don't want to press charges Yeah, somebody's going if not both Yeah, going off so and I have heard Um on some of the videos I watch that a lot of times or at least a lot of departments They don't want you to take both. Yeah, they frown upon that because Someone has to be deemed the aggressor. Yeah, and that's the person that they want taken to jail Whether that's right or wrong. I don't know, but that's what I've heard Also, I think there's more resources now than there used to be yeah to deal with there is after math Yeah

55:40John found out Justin died when he received an alert about a change in his Inmate status and he called the Nevada Nevada Department of Corrections He said he cried with grief for Justin's family and with relief for his own family. He said Now two people are gone that should still be here My daughter in him if he hadn't done what he did he would still be a lot Yeah, you know, it's it's sad. You know it is people murder and When really none of this had to happen. No, absolutely not there was there was no reason for it to happen But it shows you this man's compassion. Oh for sure, right He's shedding a tear for this guy's family who killed his daughter better man than me. Yeah, I mean he's a compassionate person Yeah But you know as we wrap up this episode Gibbs It's a tough one because it deals with

56:41Some very sensitive issues. Yeah, right domestic violence very sensitive issue Suicide another very sensitive issue You know, I am drawn to Vicki in this case and in the situation that she was in You can debate whether she did anything wrong. I don't really think she did I think she thought she was being a good friend. I think it's exactly what she was. She was a good friend that Followed her friends wishes and left it at that and like she said never thought that it could ever Get to this point right and very few people do yeah, and they can't imagine that something like this is gonna happen But you also Can really tell that she's struggling if well for sure it eats at her I'm sure but she needs to understand it's she didn't do anything wrong. Yeah, you know It's not her fault, but it's not it's not gonna change anything. She's gonna feel that regret and yeah, you know

57:43That's that's just part of this whole thing Yeah, that's it for our Episode on Michelle Carson It's just tragic all the way around it really is no doubt about it But that's it for another episode of true crime all the time. So for Mike and Gabby stay safe and keep your own time ticking