Mopping Up Maelius

The Aftermath of a Murder

Rome has just experienced a scandal like no other. A terrible famine had hit in the years 440-439 BCE, and this had caused political chaos. The patrician appointed to secure grain, Lucius Minucius, had not experienced much success. Into the void stepped a wealthy equestrian named Spurius Maelius.

Maelius either allowed his newfound popularity as the bringer of grain to go to his head and started plotting to seize control of Rome, or he was foisted into power by the people. Either way, his journey ended in a bloody stabbing, thanks to Master of the Horse, Servilius Ahala. Did Maelius incite the violence, or was Ahala a secret assassin? It is no wonder that we have some mopping up to do. Things are very messy.

Episode 128 – Mopping Up Maelius

Some classical reception in action with this Statue of Cincinnatus at his plough in Cincinnati, Ohio,
Courtesy of Wikimedia Commons

Get the Mop, and the Bulldozer

Cincinnatus, our possible dictator for 439 BCE, gave instructions for the house of Maelius to be destroyed and turned into a memorial to his crazy plans. The site became known as the Aequimaelium, and it was located on the Vicus Iugarius. The man who revealed Maelius' treachery, Lucius Minucius, received his own ox and a gilded statue outside the Porta Trigemina.

Less pleasantly, the severed heads of the traitors were placed on display by a pool in the Forum (the Lacus Servilius). What better place to reflect on poor choices.

There are strange parallels in this history and other periods in Roman history which can make one dubious of this whole affair. However, mopping up Maelius seems to have produced a number of physical reminders that were still a feature of Rome many centuries later.

Snitches Get Stitches?

On top of the statue, Lucius Minucius was transferred to the plebeian class and made a tribune of the plebs. Record scratch! Are snitches supposed to get lots of honours? They do if it benefits the powers-that-be in Rome! This might be a sign that the patricians were still wary after Maelius and wanted one of their men on the inside. One who was known to be a tattle-tale.

That's One Way to Say No

The political scene might have settled down in the city, but Rome was about to be dealt a brutal blow from a colony. Fidenae decided to throw their lot in with Veii, an Etruscan city under the control of King Lars Tolumnius.

Rome could hardly ignore such a betrayal and despatched four envoys. The people of Fidenae were not familiar with the saying, ‘Don't shoot the messenger' and executed these men. There is some confusion over their extreme actions. Lars Tolumnius was suspected of having orchestrated the deaths in an attempt to bind Fidenae closer to Veii.

How will Rome respond to such an insult? Tune in to find out!

Our Players 439 BCE

Consuls

• Agrippa Menenius T. f. Agripp. n. Lanatus (Pat.)
• T. Quinctius L.f. L.n. Capitolinus Barbatus (Pat.) – Cos. 471, 468, 465, 446, 443.

Dictator

• L. Quinctius L. f. L. n. Cincinnatus (Pat.) – Cos. Suff. 460

Master of the Horse

• C. Servilius – f. – n. Ahala (Pat.)

Praefectus Annonae

• L. Minucius (Esquilinus Augurinus) (Pat.) – Cos. Suff. 458

Wealthy Equestrian

• Spurius Maelius

Our Players 438 BCE

Military Tribunes with Consular Power

• Mam. Aemilius (M.f. – n. Mamercinus?) (Pat.)
• L. Quinctius L.f.L.n. Cincinnatus (Pat.) – Cos. 428b, Mil. Tr. c.p. 425, 420.
• L. (or C.) Iulius – f. – n. Iullus (Pat.) – Cos. 430.

Legates, Ambassadors

• C. Fulcinius
• Cloelius Tullus (Pat.)
• Sp. Antius
• L. Roscius

Tribune of the Plebs

• Q. Caecilius
• Q. Iunius
• Sex. Titinius

Etruscan King

• Lars Tolumnius

Our Sources

• Dr G reads Diodorus Siculus, 12.38
• Dr Rad reads Livy ab Urbe Condita 4.16-17.
• Broughton, T. R. S., Patterson, M. L. 1951. The Magistrates of the Roman Republic Volume 1: 509 B.C. – 100 B.C. (The American Philological Association)
• Cornell, T. J. 1995. The Beginnings of Rome: Italy and Rome from the Bronze Age to the Punic Wars (c. 1000-264 BC) (Taylor & Francis)
• Forsythe, G. 2006. A Critical History of Early Rome: From Prehistory to the First Punic War(University of California Press) 

Sound Credits

Thanks to BBC Sounds, Orange Free Sounds and Sound Bible for sound effects, and the lovely Bettina Joy de Guzman for our theme music.

Domenico Beccafumi 1535. Gaius Servilius Ahala presenting the body of Spurius Maelius to Cincinnatus

Automated Transcript

Provided by Otter AI. Apologies as always – AI readers do struggle not only with Latin but also Australian accents!

Dr Rad 0:16
Welcome to the partial historians,

Dr G 0:19
we explore all the details of ancient Rome. Everything from

Dr Rad 0:23
the political scandals, the levels as the battles waged, and when citizens turn against each other. I'm Dr. Rad.

Dr G 0:34
And I'm Dr. G. We consider Rome as the Roman saw it by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories.

Dr Rad 0:43
Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.

Dr G 1:02
Hello, and welcome to a brand new episode of the partial historians. I am one of your hosts, Dr. G. And sitting beside me looking incredible as always start to read. I'm spurious furious today.

Dr G
I'm a feminist witch apparently, yeah,

Dr Rad
This is for those listening to the audio only version of the podcast.

Dr G 1:27
And we are deep in the history of Rome from the founding of the city, really. And were well into what is the early republic at this point?

Dr Rad
I would say we are. So I'd like to do a bit of a recap, if I may, Dr. G. I mean, I don't know if it's possible to recap all the things that we went through last episode, but I'm gonna give it a shot. Go for it. So we were dealing with the character spurious Malleus and upstart equestrian. Also, the sources would have us believe a man who makes the grain rain down on Rome. That's right. He's not like, he's more like DDT

Dr G 2:07
imagined small little grains falling out my face. But I am hungry, and from my mouth.

Dr Rad
Yeah. So spring Ismailia come along, during this time where room seems to be experiencing a grain shortage. And it's not the only time in the early republic that Rome would go through this problem. I mean, we've talked before about the fact that this century, particularly this middle part that we're in right now does seem to be a particularly tough time for Rome. And that's not just going by the little hints we get in the sources, like this one talking about a bad famine, but also the archaeology, which we've mentioned before. Yeah, there seems to be less building projects. There's just sort of less growth and expansion all round. And it seems like it's not just Rome, it seems to be most of the Latin region, at the very least, if not greater Italy as well. Yeah. Which would explain why they were struggling to get some green from the neighbour. Everyone's like, I need to hold on to my supplies. can't share. I can't spare a square.

Dr G 3:08
Yeah, so we had this issue and screws, Malleus had taken it upon himself to use his private fortune to try and restore the balance to bring grain back to room. But this didn't go down well, with everybody did it? It did. No, no, it went badly enough that things got out of hand. Yeah. And violence ensued.

Dr Rad
Indeed. And we had such conflicting accounts. So I, I was actually so blown away, that I couldn't really even process it last time, which is why I wanted to do quite an in depth recap this time. Okay. First of all, when we're talking about spruce malleus, depending on which account you are following, there are slightly different periods of scientists. So for me, it was definitely a blend of 440 and 439. Whereas, because we're missing Dionysius, we really could only pick up the narrative in the main pattern for 39 years, right? Correct. Yes, exactly. But thanks to your super research skills, we did get that tidbit from plenty, which seem to indicate that famine was coming because we have that story. But the other dude who lowered the price, low price, we did have a what it said an eight all of the grain suppliers actually lower the price right down. So we've got this sort of foreshadowing that things are bad, yes, on the grain front and the supply. So what we were dealing with was the fact that there was officially appointed a guy called the nucleus to be the prefect of the crane because he was meant to be the guy solving the grand crisis. So of course, he didn't take it well, when this other guy was showing him up. Even worse, he took it really badly when people shoved him off his magisterial chair and put my alias on instead being like, this guy knows how to solve the grain problem. He is solving the same problem. You sir, say you're solving the grain problem, but or not exactly to see that was only in your account, my curiosity to figure this all out. So first of all, I have seen it said, Dr. G, that the idea of having a prefect of the grain supply might be a little anachronistic

Dr G 5:18
time look, that would not surprise me at all. And I think there, it's pretty fair to say that what we're seeing with this kind of narrative, this early Republic is a bit of a mix and match of the things that come up with grain supply. Yeah, that really concerned the Romans in the late Republic, and the parallels with the issue of the gracchi. And what happens there is playing on historians minds when they write about this early period. And I don't think there's any way to disentangle that kind of mess, because the Romans that are writing these annalistic histories like Libya and Dionysus of how it can assist them very much of the opinion that that greerton grain crisis is the way to understand grain supply in Rome. And we're not going to ruin that story for you, because you're going to have to tune in to when we get to like 133 BCE to find out what's going on with the Iraqi

Dr Rad 6:13
is to date for 10 years. When we finally get to that point. We will see you there. Yeah, absolutely. So first of all, I would like to say that I did make a bit of a boo boo last time, I accidentally said I know that Manoukian has had a history, the American family Sorry, I had a history with Korea laners which is partly true, but this specific Manoukian has a history with Cincinnatus, which is what I know. Okay. Now, the reason why I bring that up again, is not just to acknowledge my slight misstep there, but also because we had this appointment of Cincinnatus as dictator, and him choosing as his master of the horse. Aha. Oh, yeah, exactly. Now, the appointment of Cincinnatus as dictator is another thing. I think that the scholarship has been like, really? Is he really, because and this is the interesting thing about the history of Manoukian is not only does the Manoukian family have a history of dealing with green issues in the past, going all the way back to the early republic. But there is this personal history where Manoukian this Manoukian has got into trouble in 458 BCE, militarily and was bailed out by Cincinnatus. Oh,

Dr G 7:35
okay, so we're talking some like, pretty unique connections. Yeah.

Dr Rad 7:39
So is this another parallel where Manoukian has been appointed prefect of the green supply isn't doing a great job. In fact, there's obviously a pretty serious problem going on if your account is correct. And he's actually been kicked out of office by just a random group of people. I mean, I hope it's true. On the flip side. Yes, exactly. And in that case, is Cincinnatus coming to his rescue? Once again, do I know so there's some weird parallels in the story there? So I'm just gonna highlight that. But now let's talk about Malleus. Again, dodgy? Oh, let's. So we did mention last episode that he does seem to be one of these people that I feel like the patricians in particular have a problem with now the question is, of course, is even real.

Dr G 8:31
Do they have imaginary problems?

Dr Rad 8:34
I think the randoms do have imaginary problems all the time. But the fact that there is this blending in my account, and probably in yours, if we had it between 440 and 439, that actually is kind of breaking with annalistic tradition a bit, isn't it? Because we talked about how the fact that they like to have everything sort of neatly tied up in one year. But the way that this is kind of messily spread from 440. And really into like, the different talk about the aftermath into 438, that maybe lends some support for it being a real person and not just someone who was created to, you know, make a point or something like that.

Dr G 9:11
I think this also fits into the broader issues that we're facing with our narratives right now, which we've just entered into this period where you can not only have consoles, but you can also have military Tribune's with consular power. Now, what we're going to see for this and this is a bit of foreshadowing is probably about a 50 year stretch of things being quite confusing, politically, and narratively, and being able to confine events to a single year as analysts would like to do. Yes, gonna be a bit tricky because some of this is not going to be easily tied up. It's going to spill over. People aren't going to be sure what's going on and they don't know where they stand. And we're gonna see a lot of dictators just say,

Dr Rad 9:54
excellent. We'll see this is the interesting thing. I mean, so we have Cincinnati's being mentioned Is that a legitimate connection? That probably seems like the shady is part to me? Because as has been highlighted again, in the academia, he doesn't really do much. No. I mean,

Dr G 10:12
is there a marriage that we don't know about?

Dr Rad 10:14
It's weird. Like the previously when we've seen Cincinnatus in action, he does actually take centre stage. Now I know he's an old man at

Dr G 10:23
something at this point, maybe, you know, he's like, I'm retiring guys, this is my last ones.

Dr Rad 10:27
Exactly. Like I know that he would be older. And I know that he's not necessarily the federal character. I mean, he's definitely not the federal character here. They're trying to explain other things. But it just does seem a little off, that he'd be involved and yet, not involved. You know? It's a bit weird there. But you do have sources other than Livia. Dionysius mentioning him. So Cicero also mentions that Cincinnatus was made dictator to deal whisperer Ismailia. Specifically,

Dr G 10:56
yeah, I didn't know that. Yeah, I don't have huge doubts, necessarily, that it's an artist is doing some stuff. Yeah. Now whether it's this old guy, Cincinnatus classics in scenarios, or whether actually they might be Miss attributing something that should be going to his son. I think that's maybe a question that could be a little bit open, because we do see his son enter into politics quite soon after this point in the narrative as well. Yeah, definitely.

Dr Rad 11:21
And then we've also got we as we know, we've got a lot of quick di on the scene. We have capital liners again being a consular this year. So potentially, it's also that family connections. So maybe Cincinnatus was around. But it's hard to say. But certainly, there do seem to be points to this story in terms of what our sources are trying to achieve. And some of them are what might seem like fairly minor points, I suppose. Like explaining how the name a holla came up.

Unknown Speaker 11:53
Oh,

Dr Rad 11:55
exactly what she was doing really well, last time, which had to do with like the armpit, which just sounds so disgusting. I don't know why you would want that. It's your

Dr G 12:02
way you hide your dagger before you go into the forum, obviously.

Dr Rad 12:05
Yeah, exactly. It's also trying to explain something that's going to happen later in our account. So the erecting of a particular monument, I think Oh, hello. Yes, exactly. So I think it's going to explain that it might also be trying to explain so in your account, you mentioned, I think that some of the treacherous peoples that were associated with Bruce Malleus had their heads cut off and displayed. Awkward. Yes. That became a practice. So there was this pool in the forum, apparently.

Unknown Speaker 12:39
A pool in the forum.

Dr Rad 12:41
For heads, yes. Where you can reflect on your treachery?

Dr G 12:43
Oh,

Dr Rad 12:46
yes. So apparently, there was this pool in the forum called the lacquers. Sir William, which is where the heads of treaters would be displayed. I see. I see. I was actually surprised about that. Because I don't know that I ever actually heard mention of this.

Dr G 13:01
Yeah. I'd like to see more of that. Yeah. We don't get enough of the reflective pool of treachery in later Roman history,

Dr Rad 13:08
reflecting. Ah, the moment but then there is another thing that we should perhaps mention here as well. Oh, yeah. Which is the weird kind of parallel you can see between the story of a holla and another Republican here, one scalable, ah,

Dr G 13:35
oh, well, well, I haven't done any research on Skype, although I feel like we're a long way from him.

Dr Rad 13:40
That is okay. But so good Skype, or someone we mentioned a long, long time ago. So he was basically given senatorial approval to assassinate someone who was being annoying for Rome. And that would be one that poor centre.

Dr G 13:53
Oh, that was a long time ago, a long time ago. And

Dr Rad 13:57
part of his story was explaining the origins of his name. So stay Mola, meaning left handed because part of his whole shenanigans, you know, he put his left hand into the fire was like, ah, yeah, as a test of

Dr G 14:11
sinister. That's what I'd call that.

Dr Rad 14:14
So there is an interesting parallels here, especially with your account, not so much mine. But if things went down, as they apparently did, Indonesias. There are some interesting parallels there. Because in your account, a hollow does seem to have been given like senatorial sanction to go and assassinate malleus, who is seen as being a troublemaker for the state.

Dr G 14:36
It's a huge problem. And we see a return as sort of again and again in some of the latest source material that what happens to a holla in the wake of this assassination is unfortunate and unfair, because the thing he was doing was saving the Republic essentially and even if it was illegal, sure. li if it's to save the Republic, it's okay. Yes, yes. Is when he gets exiled?

Dr Rad 15:06
Well, yes. But as you said, like was that because he was the full guy? And he knew that.

Dr G 15:11
Yeah. But Cicero comes back to this time and time again, lots of mentions in Cicero's speeches in various different places in his corpus where he's kind of like, Yeah, but you remember what happened to that guy? And he got exiled. And that's not fair.

Dr Rad 15:24
Yeah, exactly. So yeah, just wanted to highlight all of that kind of stuff in there. Because they certainly have been, as they usually are, for this period that we're dealing with. There are always questions raised, I think, in the academia about how real some of these days or is it something that the Romans have constructed over time to tell certain narratives about themselves and their past and that sort of thing? And like,

Dr G 15:45
yeah, and I think it's a good point to make. And I'd probably come down on the side of Cornell on this, and reading some of his work recently, where he's talking about the way in which these stories are so distinctive, and there are really particular sort of etymologies drawn out of them. It's like the chances of them being completely fabricated, seems slim. Now, how mixed up the details might be in the retelling and, and the way that which people assert their own kind of interests, and reference points into how they retell those tales is another thing that we can really think about. But the idea that this is just completely made up Roman history. Yeah, it seems pretty unlikely. Absolutely. Some stuff is happening. And we're in this period, which seems to be politically very unstable.

Dr Rad 16:34
Yes. I think that's the thing. I think that the more I look at this, I can say, okay, yes, you can see that there are some slightly mythical or folklore ish aspects to this. And maybe, maybe certain aspects have been slightly exaggerated to form some really interesting parallels that the Romans themselves might be drawing between, you know, earlier events, and then this thing that's happening, but I agree, I actually do lean on the side of most of these elements being based on something real. The interesting thing is just those different traditions because we had such different accounts of how it all went down. I mean, yes. In the end. Yes. Was

Dr G 17:15
the important details are the same. Yeah, but man is dead. Yeah. And Rome is swimming and grain.

Dr Rad 17:22
But yeah, yours was so much more sinister than mine. Oh, yeah. Mine was just a guy. I mean, you know, it was a kind of story that you might hear in certain countries these days where

Dr G 17:30
I'm just wondering if somebody's destroyed Dionysius of Halicarnassus is script on purpose because they don't, they can't handle the truth. They

Dr Rad 17:39
said. But anyway, so I just wanted highlight that as we're going through, because after thinking about how different our accounts were, and how yours just seems so much more sinister, and yet also, as you said, like I was really taken in the vision of the senatorial conspiracy, and I feel like spirits Melee is gonna roar deal, man. But anyway, that's my recap for 440 and 430.

Dr G 18:10
And with that, let us move into the next year in rooms analyst history.

Kids for the APTA what I can tell you is that dinosaurs of Halicarnassus is missing for this year,

Dr Rad 18:42
get out of town. It's really sad how often that's happening now.

Dr G 18:46
All right, yeah, it's gonna happen more than more. Yeah, yeah. It's turning into fragments all around me.

Dr Rad 18:52
Very well, then. Well, I shall tell you then what I have. So it actually kind of goes straight into the aftermath for me and for 38 in Livi. So before I go into that, though, I might just give you a little bit of detail about who we've got ruling room at this summer. Yeah. Who's in charge? Yeah. So we have military tribunes with concealer palette.

Dr G 19:17
Oh, okay. After a dictator, we need a palate cleanser.

Dr Rad 19:21
We haven't had many of these since that was a possibility. No, it's been very console heavy.

Dr G 19:27
Yeah, we have one group and then they got pushed out because the ritual wasn't done properly. I think some replaced by cons. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I haven't had a great track record.

Dr Rad 19:36
I have one. Look at some milliers or maybe member centres. Oh, yeah, man,

Dr G 19:44
that scene is a member member scenesse. Yes, indeed. Marcus. Amelia mustiness. Yes. And then as you highlighted,

Dr Rad 19:50
I have one Lucius Quintus. Cincinnatus.

Dr G 19:55
Ah, yes. So this is the son of the famous Cincinnatus dicta data of the previous year and dictator of 458 as well,

Dr Rad 20:04
definitely. And they are very patricians. No one will be shocked to learn. And then there is also perhaps either Lucius or NYAS.

Unknown Speaker 20:15
You Julius. Julius oohs?

Dr Rad 20:18
Yes, exactly. Another patrician. Yeah.

Dr G 20:21
All right. So they've opened it up to military tributes for cultural power. And it's just patricians all the way down.

Dr Rad 20:26
Yeah, I kind of thought The point was to you know, mix it up a little bit. Yeah, but apparently, apparently no, yeah, there you go. There you go. Anyway, so, what we have got here is that we have got the order going out that the House of spurious Malleus needs to be destroyed. Oh, I mentioned this in the last episode, as a bit of a foreshadowing so the house is gonna be destroyed because such were seen sanity and em this of his plan that they needed to make sure the very existence of the place

Dr G 21:02
okay, so this is like the literal house here's literally like a plague upon your houses and families. Various

Dr Rad 21:09
now this is actual house because of course, lest you forget Dr. G. He did a lot of his planting there.

Dr G 21:14
Did he hide the grain there as well painted,

Dr Rad 21:17
painted. And so this memorial apparently was named the a chameleon. So this story is obviously again trying to explain the origin story of a particular space a particular memorial in the city. Now, apparently, according to SR, he said it came from the word equals or just but virus says it just means like from level so that would kind of make sense given the like, not his house to the ground. And this place was located in the weakest you guard us, which is just below the Capitol. So this week, because Garius is apparently the road that connects the emporium and the forum, barbarian to the Roman Forum. So it is pretty close to the to the heart of things that's kind of at the base of the Capitol line Hill. And apparently, it ends up coming into the farm, just between the Temple of satin, and what it would eventually be there, Basilica, Yulia. And we got all that information very helpfully from each room live. So thank you very much for helping us out with our geography.

Dr G 22:18
It's a nice spot. And so do they build something else? There? They are

Dr Rad 22:22
into erecting something else. Okay. I bet they are unnecessarily dirty. So Lucas Manoukian, our prefect of the grand who apparently was useless and yet is still going to be rewarded. Because he's on the right side of history,

Dr G 22:38
because he's a patrician and it always works out for those guys. Yeah.

Dr Rad 22:41
So he is going to be given an ox and a gilded statue.

Dr G 22:45
Why What's he done?

Dr Rad 22:47
Well, he reported sprees.

Dr G 22:49
Oh, I use a snitch. Just don't respect over what snitches

Dr Rad 22:59
so this apparently was stand outside the porter trigger Mina. Okay, tricking me to demean just trips off the tongue, it does. This apparently is an area that is associated with like wolves and, you know, trade and that kind of stuff. So I think that therefore, there's some sort of link there to, you know, grain, any Huzi and so, the pavilions allow this to happen, although you've got to assume that they're not thrilled about this whole situation because spurious Malleus seems to have become very popular with them in particular, so I would have thought they'd be grieving pretty hard.

Dr G 23:38
Yeah, it's interesting I suppose what I'd be looking for and I don't have any source material so nothing to go and be like what happens to me aliases body after he is assassinated because he's put on he's put on display. So this you got this trade hub pool of reflection, apparently, but actually, the love that the plebeians have or has been held up to have might suggest that they might try to rescue that corpse and maybe give it a proper burial and things like that Lucretius route Yeah, like do we

Dr Rad 24:10
send Virginia started sneaking up on my names lately? Too many of them.

Dr G 24:14
But do they have any sense of which they're trying to like look after his legacy? Yeah. Aliases Well,

Dr Rad 24:24
Memorial where his house used to be awkward. Yeah, but it just might be not the kind of memorial you might new. Anyway. So then Manoukian has been able because of everything that's gone down to seize all the corn that Melee has had managed to procure,

Dr G 24:41
oh, I'm not just gonna steal the man's life. I'm gonna steal his legacy as

Dr Rad 24:45
well. And like, it's just seems so Patricia. Yeah. But anyway, and then he can distribute it at a very, very low price. Like more than the Lulu that you were talking about before. This is Lulu.

Dr G 24:58
Wow, okay. Yeah. So I wonder if there might be a conflation with what's going on in those references as well.

Dr Rad 25:05
I was wondering, yeah, back back in the day, when you first referred to that guy, I was like, Is this a reference to this guy to this guy? But certainly it does seem that he was distributing it for

Dr G 25:16
a pretty good bargain basement price. Yeah,

Dr Rad 25:19
exactly. already. Yeah. Now, there's also another detail about Manoukian. Which I need to pass your way. Yes, get ready for it. So live, he does acknowledge that there are slightly different accounts of this. And he's using different Australians to sort of piece this all together. But it seems that somehow Manoukian says at this point transferred from the patricians to the plebeian class. I was expecting.

Dr G 25:47
I don't even know how to react to that. Yeah, and this is why on on what account have

Dr Rad 25:52
you just wait, just wait. They're making him the lance tribune of the plebs.

Dr G 25:58
You Why?

Dr Rad 26:03
Why do the patricians need to have a reason to read it in the face? Fans?

Dr G 26:11
I don't know. I just said, I don't feel like with the sensemaking here.

Dr Rad 26:15
Yeah, it does seem to be an odd one. But I think it was because they wanted a mole. You know, they wanted to make sure that the tribunes weren't thinking any thoughts, but they didn't like that might, you know, lead to the pool of treachery? So I think I wanted him in there to steer the ship in the right course. Right. Okay. But to be honest, if you're going to do that, they're probably less obvious people to do the job.

Dr G 26:41
Yeah. But and also, he's snitch once. Why wouldn't he snitch? Everybody knows what he is. I know, like, who's going to tell him anything? A meeting at the tribune of the plebs, where there's no 11 of them. They're like, well, I guess we'll win it. This crack is delicious. I'm loving this grain, you know, wait till he goes to the bathroom, like quick plan the overthrow of the government.

Dr Rad 27:00
I know. It does seem like a really legit part to this

Dr G 27:04
story. Yeah, the vibes are off.

Dr Rad 27:07
They've really

Dr G 27:10
got to be what do you do it? Well, he

Dr Rad 27:12
does say, you know, different accounts. He does acknowledge there's

Dr G 27:15
something there's some discrepancies here.

Dr Rad 27:18
Exactly. Yeah. I mean, all of this seems like a real, you know, wound meet sought to the plebeians, you've just lost it here. Because, no, I should have mentioned actually, not only was he given the statue, but like that was paid for the public expense. I mean, I presumed you would guess that that,

Dr G 27:37
of course. Makes total sense. Yeah.

Dr Rad 27:41
So yeah, it does seem like a lot of weirdness going on here in the aftermath, which, again, actually lends credibility, I think, to this story. I mean, and obviously, beyond the written sources that we're using here, all these physical locations that we're talking about these physical markers, memorials, and spaces within the city or near the city or whatever. It all suggests that our historians would have been able to verify that these things existed, obviously, yeah, there's potentially these are things that are still there or still remembered as having been there.

Dr G 28:22
Yeah, I think if we're talking about archaeological sites, yes, yes. There's often going to be like a legacy of remembrance in places, which would allow these stories to be recounted, and it's a matter of them for people like Libyan dynasties of how they make those places. Make sense? Yeah. In accordance with the sorts of stories that they're hearing from elsewhere? Yeah,

Dr Rad 28:43
exactly. Yeah. Now live, he does note, Dr. G, that he doesn't think the patricians would let the number of tribute into the playoffs actually get higher. So turning it up to a level.

Dr G 28:56
Yeah, you're setting a dangerous precedent. Yeah, he

Dr Rad 28:59
don't say this also seems a little weird. He also is like, why would you make 11? Even if one of them was on your side? Why would the patricians have any interest in introducing this? Because they hate it?

Dr G 29:13
Why would you add things into the thing that you dislike?

Dr Rad 29:15
Yeah. Why would you make its power potentially greater? Okay. And presumably, once you've set a precedent because you know, the Romans are very big on precedent. Once you've set the precedent of having 11 attributes of the plebs, surely the plebs are going to want to keep it. Lucky number 11. And not go back to 10. So, and also

Dr G 29:37
having 11 would mean that there would never be a tie in the vote on anything. Yeah, I mean, it's a good number.

Dr Rad 29:43
That's true, I suppose. But anyway, he basically says that he can't really be sure about why the weirdness of the details, does mention that he is basing this on an inscription that he's referring to. I would presume he's referring to the inscription that would probably We have accompany the statue of Lucius Manoukian.

Dr G 30:03
Wow, maybe, maybe, maybe yeah, I don't know really what to make of any of that? No. Well, especially

Dr Rad 30:08
because if you consider what we've dealt with before, so when they reintroduced tribune of the plebs after the whole December thing, there was an issue as well of them not voting in 10, Tribune's and people being able to choose colleagues like being like, I'm going to buddy up with that guy, he can be a trillion along with me who was elected, we had that whole story as well. And then that was decided as a bad idea. So yeah, this whole thing really doesn't seem to add up because we had the passage of the law, the lecture Bonilla, only a few years ago, which said, you have to keep voting until you get the number that you need, which is 10.

Dr G 30:50
Yeah, it seems very odd that anything but like a legal precedent would be able to increase the number to 11.

Dr Rad 30:57
Yes, unless and and this is where the haziness report comes in. You and I have often said that, sometimes we can't be sure of the numbers that were given for these particular offices, you know that they were this many, and that it was this strict at this point in time.

Dr G 31:14
Yeah. Yeah. And there's a sense in which like, in the same way that we seem to be navigating, like how do we rule with a top magistrate group? Is it going to be consoles? Is it gonna be military Tribune's with controller power? We're having the same sort of issues with the tribune of the plebs. Like, do they pick a buddy? Do we continue to vote until they get them all in? Are we able to just chuck a patrician in there by saying they were plugged in now? Yeah, you know, they're trying to figure some stuff out here. And I think this is all evidence of the sort of crisis mode that I think Rome is in at the moment where they're not sure how to do stuff. They haven't landed on their feet after the second December, it has wrapped up. Yeah, and they're still really concerned. And on top of that, it's a famine. And so people have a knot in their right minds. People are desperate, and maybe people are making decisions that they wouldn't normally make. Yeah, under better conditions.

Dr Rad 32:07
Absolutely. And of course, as you might expect, there is some resistance from the tribune of the plebs that just like me here smile, buddy, my old pal. Yeah, exactly. So apparently, the guys who resisted ah, quinti is key. sylius quinti is unius and Sextus. titanius. Yeah. So these guys are like, whoa, whoa, whoa,

Dr G 32:32
hold up. Nokia three out of the 10. I like.

Dr Rad 32:38
They're like, Whoa, I don't think many kids should be getting any of these honours. I mean, are we forgetting the fact that he is surely partially responsible, along with our Hala for the murder of spurious Malleus?

Dr G 32:55
Hello, I mean, you might not like the guy, but he brought a lot of food in

Dr Rad 32:59
exactly. So this is why we ended up getting in for 38. Because this is actually kind of the tail end of 439. For me, this is why in 438, we ended up getting military tribunes with Confederate power, because these guys force through an action to make sure that that's what's going to happen. And yet, as I mentioned, they're all patrician

Dr G 33:22
the rule profession. It's tough out there. Yeah, this period of Roman history is bonkers.

Dr Rad 33:30
I think that they were obviously assuming that the plebeians would be able to get elected as a military Tribune. Because if they campaigned on the platform that they were going to seek justice for failures, that that would presumably be enough to get them into power. Apparently.

Dr G 33:56
There are many questions.

Dr Rad 33:57
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. But this is where we get Amelia Smirkus. very oily guy. And this is where we get Lucy's Ulus. of future thing in terms of family name. Yes, yes. Pay attention to these people. Yeah. Lucius krytus, who we've talked about as being the son of Cincinnatus. So and this is the thing these guys aren't just patricians. These guys are apparently super, really patrician.

Dr G 34:24
Yeah, these are very prominent families. Yes, fine. Yeah. So that's very interesting. And I was like, let's just throw all of the big, big gun petitions into the military

Dr Rad 34:36
tribute. And this is where maybe it does actually all make sense. After the petitions perhaps being really shaken by what happened was furious Malleus they're not taking any chances that they're going to have that duck guys on the sea. But how they would make sure that happens, presumably would have to be, you know, using clients, I guess, and that kind of thing. I don't really know how they would make sure that happens. that?

Dr G 35:01
They do and yeah, yeah. For 38. So I don't have a lot of detail about this year is pretty fair. Yeah. I have Diodorus Siculus, who lets us know that we've got some military Tribune's rather than console excellence. Fair enough. I agree. Yeah, it's all over that. But he also then is super interested in the Peloponnesian War. And well, I mean, we'll pause right there because there's 438. Yes, BCE in Rome. Sure. And when does the Peloponnesian War start? I actually can't remember for 31, right. So we've got already Diodorus Siculus is giving us a bit of a hint that we've got some animalistic potential issues going on here, where the Pharisees don't necessarily match up to what's happening elsewhere, or maybe he's incorrect about when he thinks the Peloponnesian War starts. But there is a sense in which we're slipping through some of the years. And when maybe not able to hold on to the details as much as we can, and neither can the historians.

Dr Rad 36:01
What are you talking about? Everything we've said so far has been so straightforward. It makes so much sense.

Dr G 36:06
Well, it's gonna it's gonna keep slipping like this at least in my material for quite a few years. Right. So I'm flagging it now that like, even Diodorus Siculus is kind of like, well, this is the year that you know, you throw Dimas was the Archon in Athens. So he tells you who the Archon is, and right, they usually rule for like anywhere between like a two and four year period, and then he gives you the consoles. So you're like, okay, cool. And then he's like, and now on to the Peloponnesian War. And you're like, Wait a second. Yeah. And he's super interested in the Peloponnesian War. So he's like, I'm gonna give you all the details on that, because that is incredible guys through what's happening in Rome. Yeah, Rome is not that much. not that interesting to me. But the other thing that we get, and this is where I stopped relying on Browse and a lot and like, who's even who had room at this point in time? Yes. And he tells us, there's a whole bunch of ambassadors.

Dr Rad 36:55
Yeah. So they're going to come up in the next part of what I have to say yes,

Dr G 36:59
whole bunch of ambassadors. And so we've got Gaius for cuneus. Chloe as tooless, spurious anteus and Lucia roseus. Some of them are named. And we also have mentioned of the Etruscan King loves to luminous

Dr Rad 37:17
is gonna be a big part of my next couple of years. And yeah, he's,

Dr G 37:21
we've got the king of the Etruscans. So the way that a trusting kingship works, as far as we can tell, yes, is that they have they divided up they've got 12 kings, essentially, when they've got so many different regions with different regions. So they've got kings of regions, yes. And then they sort of within themselves, someone might be the king of kings, but

Dr Rad 37:45
very Games of Thrones.

Dr G 37:47
I love the King of kings. It's hard to know when you encounter an interesting King whether you've encountered a king or thinking so

Unknown Speaker 37:55
we are the kings of did Fred me. Last who Lumias,

Dr G 38:07
Trotsky and King and that's kind of I don't get any details about what happens to any of these characters.

Dr Rad 38:13
Oh, just you wait. This is quite the

Dr G 38:17
conundrum. But I do have laws to luminess does last does live into the next year. Just just in case that might affect your narrative. Yeah.

Dr Rad 38:27
Okay. All right. Back to Livia, shall we? Alright, sir. We have this whole thing, where we got the military tribunals with consular power, okay, they're in their very late scene change, where Longo concerned about what is or isn't happening within Rome itself, the messy power dynamics between the patricians and the Whovians etc. Instead, we are switching to the Roman colony of Ferdinand

Dr G 39:00
ah for DNA now

Dr Rad 39:03
for DNA is somewhat close to the city of a and I think we have mentioned both of them quite a bit in previous episodes where we've been talking about conflict with the Etruscans and that sort of thing. Yeah,

Dr G 39:15
so v is the Etruscan city just to the north of Rome and Medina is kind of just a bit to the eastern South. It's, they're co located as it

Dr Rad 39:23
were, yes, indeed. Yes. Now, what basically happens is this Roman colony of Medina revolts and transfers its allegiance to Oh, yes. Which is ruled by one last zactly and that's where he comes into my account. Okay. So this is an interesting development affected they have it's not gonna go well, I'll tell you that anyway. But this was made even worse by this particular situation. Okay, which is, the Romans sent some ambassadors to ask. Why the switch? True for DD? Yes. Do

Dr G 40:05
you guys your hours?

Dr Rad 40:07
Yes. I don't know if you've noticed, but as your routes are either you're either like Alvin a Latin or something. But yeah, I try skin and you were loyal to us. So why are you switching brands? Maybe ask why you chosen to switch to a different insurance policy?

Dr G 40:26
Would you like to consider your answer? Exactly.

Dr Rad 40:29
Now these ambassadors

Dr G 40:31
are put to death. By the for dinos. Yeah.

Dr Rad 40:35
Oh, this is their

Dr G 40:36
response. Wow. Yeah. They're in with the Etruscans. Yeah,

Dr Rad 40:40
exactly. And this is where I get the names as well. So we've got as you said, guys, full sinners. Clear. Well, yes, tell us spurious. anteus and lascivious Ruscus. Yeah, that's another name. I can get on board. Loose skiis Ruskies

Unknown Speaker 40:56
mu rock.

Dr Rad 40:59
Now, some people try and say that this was a poor choice of the Etruscan King, who was now obviously in charge of affairs, because, you know,

Dr G 41:10
obviously he's behind it. Well, yeah, you would presume courage this sort of behaviour?

Dr Rad 41:14
Exactly. Yeah. So keen to lameness. What's the deal? Apparently, it's a bit of a Henry the second and Thomas Beckett situation, a couple live in 70 and English history. So there is a story that Henry the second said something like you know, who's gonna read me with this troublesome priest, and this was overheard by some knights who then went and killed Thomas Beckett right? After? Yeah, not good. Most famously, parody blackout, which I'm not gonna lie is where I'm getting most of my information from. I didn't really bother to look it up. I just knew the story. Excellent research. But This situation reminds me a little bit of that, because apparently, it might have been a mistake, because last alumnus was playing with dice. And he said something whilst he was playing with his dice, which was overheard by so people from fee today, who thought he was giving some sort of order about killing them. Oh, that's awkward. Yeah. So he might have just been playing Monopoly. Oh, yeah. Okay, like, I

Dr G 42:19
hate Romans. Something

Unknown Speaker 42:21
like that. Yeah, exactly. So I can't afford to buy the capital. Yeah, something where he

Dr Rad 42:26
said something while he was playing a game or, or he was unclear about maybe, you know, where he was directing his speech. Maybe he was playing whilst he was talking to some people from feeding. And he was actually talking about the game, but they thought he was talking to them. Livi doesn't by excuse the king.

Dr G 42:47
It's a cover story. Yeah, very best. This guy is aiming at revolt across the board. He wants war with Rome.

Dr Rad 42:54
Well, and this is the other thing, and this would be very clever if it was true. And part of me thinks it is actually just that correct to be true. Apparently, levy thinks that he was maybe deliberately bit unclear or something in the way that he gave these orders. Because he wanted the people or feed me to be complicit. He didn't want it to just be something that over your trust students, did. You want it to be something where this people are feeding? They were committed? Yeah. Killed Roman envoys. Varian? Yeah, they're all. There's no going back. And so that might be why he deliberately orchestrated this situation. I wonder

Dr G 43:36
if this is part of the broader issues that are going on at the moment? Because it's not like the feminine is instantly over? No, no. And so I imagine there's quite a lot of desperation, a lot of regions. And maybe for DNA has decided to switch so they can source a grain supply for themselves

Dr Rad 43:54
well of geography is not my strong point. But all these places are fairly close to each other if we consider how big room is going to become. But the need is quite close today. It is. Yeah, exactly. So it wouldn't be crazy. It's not like they're throwing going, you know what? We're gonna throw in a lot with China. We just heard about it. Thinking Yeah,

Dr G 44:13
no, they're throwing it in with a really close neighbour. And potentially Rome has had its own problems for quite some time it would appear Yeah, at least from the histories that we've been looking at. And so maybe they need some stuff that they just can't get any other way. And it makes sense. Yeah, absolutely. And those ambassadors well, they just have to go.

Dr Rad 44:33
Well, and this is the thing, because they died nobly in the line of duty. They also get statues at the public expense.

Dr G 44:42
But there's a lot of statues going on now.

Dr Rad 44:44
They really are. Remember,

Dr G 44:46
I don't think this is this doesn't seem the right time for a lot of statues. If

Dr Rad 44:50
I was naming this like a Friends episode, I would call this the one with five statues. I have a lot of statues. Yeah, absolutely. So they get the statues erected. on the roster. Now, this place is the speaker's platform in the form, but apparently wouldn't actually be officially called the roster until, like 100 years from now. So I'm guessing that that's just a description so that people have his own time would roughly know where the statues were located. The speaker zone. Yeah. And that's probably why we actually have such a great collection of their names, because their names probably would have been obviously inscribed on statues.

Dr G 45:32
I see, huh? Yeah.

Dr Rad 45:35
So that is really where 438 wraps up for me with a situation where clearly the Romans are like, Well, I tell you what, it's Whoa, whoa, interesting.

Dr G 45:47
Oh, it's a cliffhanger. Yeah. What will happen next? Will Rome Avengers murdered Ambassador wars?

Dr Rad 45:54
I think they will. Yes, that this is basically where fourth idiot wraps up with, with Romans being like, well, it's very clearly war, because, you know, there's not really any other way to take the murder of your ambassadors. No,

Dr G 46:06
no, thanks a lot for Dina.

I mean, and really also, I mean, it would really be the equivalent of murdering a customer service person who asked why you're switching electricity. I mean, you know, they were just asking about where they didn't, they didn't wear it. They didn't they just faded wherever to be like, hey, what's the deal? Hey, buddy, where's the beef? What are you doing? Yeah.

Are we not providing adequate electricity supply?

Dr Rad 46:32
Can you please provide us with specific feedback? So the Bremen experienced

Dr G 46:37
on a scale of one to 10? How would you rate us and Mrs.

Dr Rad 46:41
And can you please explain why. Anyway, so yeah. All right. Let's go. I'm gonna wrap it. Oh, look, I

Dr G 46:47
think that's probably a good place for us to wrap up the episode as well.

Dr Rad 46:51
All right, that means after G that it is time for

Dr G 46:53
the partial pick. It is time for the partial pick, which means there are 50 Golden Eagles up for grabs for the Romans in five different categories. Let's see how they do this year.

Dr Rad 47:14
All right. So what is that first category? Dr. G, military clout? Hmm. Well, I mean, I guess there is kind of some action but doesn't go well, for the Romans.

Dr G 47:23
I mean, does having military tribunes instead of consoles automatically give you cloud militarily wise? I try. I'm afraid. Diplomacy. Let the Romans really try. Some ambassadors, do we?

Dr Rad 47:40
I think we could we can give them points for trying to be ready, even if it wasn't received very diplomatically?

Dr G 47:46
I think so. Yeah. That's a nice gesture. They didn't just turn up with an army. They were like, quick. Send the ambassador's? Yeah.

Dr Rad 47:52
Okay. So maybe we give them what? Five? Yeah. Okay. Five. We don't really know how threatening the ambassadors were being. I mean, did they ask for? Were they being kind

Dr G 48:02
of douchey? I don't want to I don't want to victim blame.

Dr Rad 48:05
I don't want to either, but I mean, is the Romans they might have been being a bit douchey. about it.

Dr G 48:09
That's true. Yeah. Todd to know. All right. So five, expansion?

Dr Rad 48:14
Definitely not. They've lost territory. Me minus points.

Dr G 48:19
I think that's a minus one right there, buddy. No,

Dr Rad 48:23
we don't have for that. All right. For it is.

Dr G 48:27
We're tools.

Dr Rad 48:28
Okay. Hmm. Not really, I mean, dying in the line of duty. I mean, it gets you a statue. But

Dr G 48:37
look, I think we can say that as far as the patricians are concerned. Sure. Manoukian has, yes. He's deserved that statue as far as their Oh, we might disagree with that. But he's been given a statue? Well, it's

Dr Rad 48:51
like when we first introduced him, he basically said, look, he wasn't a great prefect of the grain. But he was great. The Liberty, huh. So clearly, his reputation is one of preserving something that the Romans value very highly or at least sit in rooms, because I think it's liberty for some Ooh.

Dr G 49:12
All right. So I think there has to be a weird to a score here. Yeah. So is there anything greater than receiving a statute maybe getting a wreath of some kind, but getting a statute is pretty up there. So I feel like it has to be probably about a six or a seven.

Dr Rad 49:27
Okay. Yeah, I'll give it a six. Just go. Don't like that there enough. Yeah.

Dr G 49:33
And what is it like to be a citizen? At this time citizens score? Is it a good time to be a citizen in Rome? I mean, you've got some more grain now. So that's always up from before. But

Dr Rad 49:45
yeah, look, it does seem like the famine would be must be easy. I mean, even with murdered ambassadors. I don't know that the Romans could afford to commit to a war if the famine was really at its lowest point. It might, it might not have all wrapped up, but I think that I'd need to be fairly certain that you know things at home are going to be fairly stable, huh? Yeah. So okay, yes. Got some rain. And that's what Munich is currently did right? Killed my alias and then took all the glory by distributing,

Dr G 50:14
distributing the grain. Huh? Yeah. So there's that aspect of it. But then on the other hand, they also have to deal with the fact that the tribune of the plebs has now been infiltrated by a patrician. Yes, who's been turned into a plebeian. But everybody knows what that means. Yes, this is true. And this was I mean, I feel like it's not good not.

Dr Rad 50:35
Because we also have all patricians being military tribunes with consular power. Very, very, very prestigious people too. And then you've got that Cincinnatus connection, because even if he wasn't the dictator for 39, now his douchebag sign is there too. Yeah,

Dr G 50:53
I made a comeback because I feel

Dr Rad 50:54
like I can really only give it a one doji just because you're not starving to death.

Dr G 50:58
All right. I was gonna say to at most so I'm happy. Well,

Dr Rad 51:02
I mean, let's face it. Now. We've also got a war coming through, which means who's going to be serving starting to get co opted by friends? Yeah. So if you add that up as well, yeah, I think definitely a one. All right. All right. So that means that because we have introduced for the first time minus a minus, that the Romans end up on a livin Golden Eagles probably could have been 12. But we're feeling extra mean today.

Dr G 51:31
Wow room next time next time, a chance for greater glory, perhaps indeed. A pleasure speaking to you, as always,

Dr Rad 51:38
as always RTG.

Thank you for listening to this episode of the partial historians. If you are interested to hear more about the probably mythical hero that we mentioned earlier, Gaius mucus more commonly known as Scaevola. Then please check out episode 47 For Senna, Scola, and CO Elia. There are definitely some interesting parallels between what we've been talking about for the past couple of episodes and his story. Scola was a Roman Noble who was sent to assassinate an enemy of the trust in King last poor centre, who was besieging room in alliance with Talquin dynasty who just been kicked off the throne. Skyfall didn't quite manage to pull off the assassination attempt it was captured. But to show he didn't care about torture, he punched his right hand, not his left hand. As I said earlier into the flames and present it was apparently so impressed by his bravery that he let him go. And forevermore, he would be known as the man with the left hand, and that explained his family name was stable. Well, interestingly, there is no one from that family who has the name guys until much later around the time that livie and Dionysius were writing.

In the meantime, however, we'd like to give a big thank you to all our Patreon supporters. And this episode, we'd like to give a special shout out to Benjamin Jade, Aaron and Ryan, who all joined a year ago and Gustin August 2021. YouTube can support our show and help us to produce more excellent content about the ancient world by becoming a Patreon. In return, you receive exclusive early access to our special episodes. And now you also get to see us behind the scenes during some of our recording sessions. However, we know that a monthly donation does not work for every budget, and there are other ways that you can support the show. We now have a coffee account so you can buy us a coffee. And of course you can spread the word by buying and wearing some of our merchandise. Until next time, we are yours in ancient Rome.

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