0:00Today's sponsor is Chamberlain University. You've seen them, nurses who just own every moment, who bring calm to chaos and hope to hopelessness, who makes you think that's exactly the kind of nurse I want to be. That's not by accident, that's by preparation. As the number one largest nursing school in the US, Chamberlain University has been preparing nurses who don't just meet the moment, they own it. Start your journey at chamberlain.edu. Every good detective needs a partner to support them on important cases. Think of a state farm agent like your sidekick. There to help you along the way in your search for coverage. State Farm can help you choose the coverage you need, whether it's for your home, car, boat, or even RV. With so many options, it's nice knowing you have help finding what fits for you so you can get back to solving all of life's bigger cases. Go to statefarm.com or use the award-winning app to connect with a local agent and get a quote, like a good neighbor, state farm is there. You want to know what quality sounds like?

1:02It sounds like a Ford Super Duty, towing up to 40,000 pounds before the sun comes up. It sounds like a Ford Mustang, doing what a Mustang does. Ford, JD Powers number one, an initial quality among mainstream brands. Ready, set, board. When properly equipped, Max Dowing-Burries based on cargo, Baybook could be aeration accessories number of pasts for JD Power 2026 US initial quality study award information visit JD Power.com slash awards, awards based on 2026 mile a year, new or miles may be shown. Hey, weirdo, Zymash. And I'm Elena. And this is Morbid. MUSIC This is Morbid. It got gloomy again. So it's Morbid in the gloom in the gloom. In the gloom, gloom. Ooh. In the gloom, gloom. They go. You like that? Because it's in the afternoon in case you didn't catch that.

2:02So usually I like to explain my jokes, but you kind of like stepped in there for me. I did. I tried to help you out there. We even have an Ascii Goofy day today. We have. I cried laughing at several times. I thought you were going to see you cried and I was like, I cried. I actually didn't see that happen. Like we've been having a silly day. I'm like, I actually bald my eyes. I could cry. None of you noticed. So were you crying laughing at earlier? Like really bad? We were talking about the Sam and Colby episode. We did it at the SK Pier smell. No, it's so embarrassing. I called myself out. She's not following me. Yeah, I did not call her own. It was Ash calling herself out. When she pointed out, I just started laughing. It was really funny. Because she recreated this. She did like a certain stance and said, I smell smoke. It was like, that's the smell. And she did this like, ooh. It was like a leading comment. And she recreated it while she mentioned it. And it made me laugh so hard when she recreated it. I love it. I was being a YouTube girlie where I loved it.

3:03You're hearing these streets. It made me want to do something haunted again. I wanted to do something haunted so bad. And our brothers texted us the other day. Our brother Colton Covans, Sabrina and Karina. Yeah. And they were like, do you want to go do a sale with us? And I was like, hell yeah. That day is clear. And then I was like, I'm on vacation that day. I'm not. And I'm like, do I want to just cancel my whole vacation just to do a sale? Yes. I'm not gonna, because it's not refundable. But damn. But damn. But I never go on vacation really. No. And I'm only going to, I'm not. But like whenever I do go to vacation, I go to Disney. Yeah. I'm not even going to Disney. Yeah. But I am going to, I'm going to FL. FL going to America's Fire Arm. Yeah. Yeah. And then I was like, yeah, I'm going there. Yeah. It sounded, it sounded bad when you put it in. I mean, yeah. And then I was going to say where I was going, but I was like, I'm not going to tell you guys where I'm going, because this is a crime podcast. Yeah. So let me tell you guys not to do that. Exactly. You don't want to triangulate that. We move away from this. What's going on? Thanks for buying the butcher legacy so much.

4:04It's so good. You guys are pretty awesome. And it was cool to hang with all of you. And it's been awesome. I'm really glad that you guys are tagging me and the reviews and stuff. Thank you. I was telling Alina the other day for those who have read it. There's a scene where like, I'm trying to think how to put the, there's a scene in the end that I just want to see on film so badly. Yeah. Like at the end of the butcher legacy, I'm not going to describe it because I feel like it'll kind of give the pot away. Yeah. But there's a scene and it involves like running. Yeah. And that's all I'll say. And I want to see it so bad. And you know what? Maybe we will. And it involves a discovery of something. Yeah. Yeah. It's really exciting. I think that's really, I don't think there's a lot of like business. No. I don't think so. I think we can just get into it. This is a two-pada. This is a two-pada. And this is my two-pada. I'm shocked that we haven't covered this. And there's really no reason that we haven't.

5:05It's just like, it's a big undertaking for sure. I think we've, I think we've, like as I've heard of this case, I know some of the details. And I think it's just so complex. It is. That we kind of were letting it. Because I think it was like when the staircase came out. Yeah. That's like, I think it was. Yeah. It was like huge. Yeah. There were all these theories. But it's been like years. That's why I just wanted, I think we just wanted to let it like. Settle a little bit. Yeah. We don't know who's love to do something like breaking. When it's in the middle of like the theorizing stage. Right. Like the really serious theorizing stages. I actually think that's the thing that I'm going to say. I think that's the thing that I'm going to say. I think that's the thing that I'm going to say. I think that's something that, I think, I think that's the thing that I'm going to say. It's like, I'm going to say I'm really serious theorizing stages. I actually think that's how Karen and George just started. My favorite murder. I think they messed up. The party. And they were talking about the staircase, that makes sense. Right. Oh, that's right. I think that was like their origin story. I think they really let us know. Yeah. But we're going to cover it. We're going to do it in two parts. Part one is like a little bit longer. Just because there's kind of a lot to get to. And then, you know, I love to add on a little bit of a cliffhanger.

6:06We love it. And then part two will obviously kind of go into like the trial Before we get there, I think we should start in the 80s. The mid 80s, your time, the mid 80s. That's when I came on the scene. Well, Kathleen and Michael Peterson were already on the scene. In the mid 1980s, neither Kathleen Atwater or Michael Peterson was really looking for a relationship, which I kind of feel like is always when you find a relationship. I was going to say that's usually when you come up with one. Yeah. But neither expected to find one with their neighbor. Michael had been married before and his first marriage actually had just recently fallen apart. And Kathleen had separated from her husband right around that time. So she was still mourning the loss of that relationship. Yeah. And then there was children to think of. Michael had two sons and two daughters. And Kathleen had a daughter from her first marriage. All of the kids were still pretty young. So adding a new romantic partner into the mix didn't necessarily seem like the best idea at first. It can be tough, I imagine. But they were like irresistibly drawn to one another, it seemed. And it seemed pretty much like to everybody that it was inevitable.

7:08They would end up together. Yeah. So Michael Peterson moved to Durham, North Carolina in 1986 after his marriage to his first wife fell apart. At the time, he and his first wife, Patricia, they had been living in Germany, raising their four children, two biological sons, and two adopted daughters of their friends Elizabeth and George Ratliffe. Remember those names because they'll come back later. Well, I'll remember. Yeah, put it in your back pocket. It's a relief. When it was clear that their marriage was over, Michael decided to return to the US. And he actually brought the girls with him, but his sons Clayton and Todd stayed in Germany with their mother. Okay. Now at that time, Michael had published one novel and his writing career was really beginning to take off. So soon he would accept a position as a columnist for the Harold son, which was just a daily paper in Durham. When Michael moved in down the street, Kathleen Atwater had built what was by all accounts and incredible life for herself. Her daughter, Caitlin said, it was really easy just to kind of fall into amazement of this person who could just keep you entertained and laughing.

8:12As the first woman admitted to Duke University engineering program, Kathleen had worked for some of the largest pharmaceutical companies in the world at that point. Bad ass. Yeah. Eventually her professional expertise landed her in executive position with Nortel, which was a Canadian telecoms company. And she was making a really impressive salary at that time. Now, unfortunately, while work was going really well for her, Kathleen's home life was starting to crumble because her husband at the time was doing a little infidelity. Just a little infidelity. A dip into the infidelity bond. That's not great. It's me you're never doing a little infidelity just to be clear about just me like wording it weird. It was just me riffing. They had built what she thought was a happy life raising their daughter, Caitlin, but the affair approved to be of a trail that she couldn't forgive. Yeah. So by 1986, they had separated. That's sad. Yeah. Now, even though neither Michael nor Kathleen had any plans for a new romance so soon after being separated or divorced, it really didn't take long for their worlds to collide.

9:13Thanks to their children. Oh, Michael's girls Margaret and Martha were about the same age as Caitlin at water and living so close to each other meant that they became friends very quickly. Would their kids being such good friends, Kathleen and Michael started getting to know each other. And it seems that there was just an instant connection between the two of them. In 2002, Michael told her reporter, she was immensely funny, intelligent, warm, and just so quick. She sounds awesome. She seemed so cool. Yeah, she really does. Pictures and even just like little home videos and stuff that they have. Yeah. She has like, she has that like quintessential like 90s, 2000s mom that like, I can't. She's like your, like your friend group. She's that friend. She's a mom. You know what I mean? She's the mom you feel really comfortable with. Yeah. She just seemed to sweep and like you could tell her stuff that maybe you wouldn't feel comfortable telling you. Yeah. Mom and she'd like help you through it. And she'd like have your favorite snack when you went over there. 100% And she also had really good style that home that eventually lived in was gorgeous.

10:14But before we got there, within a year, Michael and Kathleen had fallen in love and neither could see any reason why they shouldn't merge their lives at that point. To their surprise, the girls were actually completely enthusiastic about the move. Caitlin said later, they sat me out. They all sat me down and said, how would you like it if Martha and Margaret come live with you? And I immediately thought a permanent sleepover. I mean, yeah, like hell, yeah, wouldn't think that. It was as long as you like everybody. It's like, hell yeah, let's go. Yeah, they're already friends. Why not? And it was cool that they kind of sat them down and were like, do you have a feel about this? Yes. How would this affect you or like our parents? It is. And after seeing how unhappy her mother had been when her parents marriage had ended and how happy Michael made her mother. At that point, Caitlin couldn't see any downside to one of the families. And if Kathleen had any reservations about the move, she never let it show. So everybody saw a really awesome change, both in Kathleen and Michael, after they got together. This sounds so lovely. It starts off like so like American dream, American family.

11:17Yeah. Just, you know, like, like, like, blending the families and like, everyone's happy and yeah. Yeah. And it never really felt like a man that way. Oh, no. So I guess after his marriage to Patricia had unraveled a few years earlier, a lot of people said that Michael had just lost a spark that he used to have. But according to his brother Bill, his relationship with Kathleen seemed to reinvigorate him. He said, Bill said, I think she was spontaneous. She was a lot of fun. She had a tremendous sense of humor. Not only did like, there are immediate families get along with each other, but they're extended ones did to it. Yeah. In 1987, after his divorce from Patricia was final, Michael and the girls moved in with Kathleen altogether. In time, Michael and Kathleen then just then started to discuss them actually getting married, but there was a caveat. Kathleen's husband, Fred Atwater had no interest in divorcing his wife. Oh, so Michael and Kathleen at that point just decided basically to live together as husband and wife in every sense, but illegal one.

12:19Hoping that eventually Fred would wear down somehow. Cheese, which is like a really shitty thing to do if that's really what happened. Yeah. Now in the meantime, the Atwater Peterson household was thriving. Kathleen was continuing to climb the corporate ladder and she eventually became the director of communications at Nortel and earned like a really incredible salary. At that same time, Michael's writing career also really took off in 1990, he published a time of war, which was a fictional novel inspired by his own service and the Vietnam war. The book was an instant success and went on to become a New York Times bestseller. Oh, yeah. I also know one of those three times. But between Kathleen's executive job and Michael's writing success, they were making enough money to kind of move up together. Yeah, at least in terms of real estate. So in 1992, they purchased a 14 room home in one of the nicest, wealthiest areas in Durham. Got it. And again, like the pictures that you see of that house are gorgeous. Yeah. It was so well decorated.

13:20I live for a well decorated home. We love it. Now in 1996, Michael published a sequel to his first book, obviously titled A Better Peace, which was just about as successful as his previous novel. And then the next year, he got a freelance writing job with the Harold son. Now while the subjects of his opinion column were varied, a lot of the times he did publish opinion pieces that were highly critical of the Durham police and city government. Oh, okay. So that obviously didn't earn him a lot of friends in the local administration. Yeah. The same year that he took that freelance writing job, Kathleen's divorce from Fred was actually finalized finally. Finally, I guess he just came around at some point. But now it was possible for Kathleen and Michael to get married and they were so excited. So while the wedding was an undeniable high point in their decade long relationship, it sadly proved to be one of the last celebratory events in their lives. In 1998, Michael decided to mount a campaign for mayor and, no, thank you exposed self to a level of scrutiny that I don't think he was necessarily prepared for.

14:26Yeah. I think no matter what when you're running for a political office, you're prepared for some scrutiny. But this was like next level. Yeah. And I wonder how prepared for that can you be that's the thing I'm sure you can think that you're prepared. Yeah. And like you're really faced with it. It's like, oh, yeah, because they will dig into your personal life, especially for politicians. Yeah. Now Michael's military service had always been an important point of personal pride and also a considerable part of his identity as far as he felt. He joined the military in 1968 at the peak of the Vietnam War. And he was awarded a silver star and a bronze star for his service. Oh wow. Now during his mayoral campaign, though, he claimed that he had also received two purple hearts during an incident where he suffered a really serious leg wound when he was, quote, shot and hit with landmine trap. Huh. Now he claimed it was that injury that earned him the honorable discharge and prevented him from serving anymore. But during his campaign, reporters from the news and observer dug into those military records and discovered that he had not been injured during a firefight or by any kind of shrapnel.

15:38So he had seemed to lie about that. And why? Yeah. A journalist for the observer. Like why? Yeah. A journalist for the observer wrote confronted with his military record. Peterson to school is that the leg injury actually occurred in a two car accident in Japan. He said not even his family or closest friends knew the truth. Wow. Well, and the thing is it's a given like because you were just saying like why? Because the rest of his service and the rest of his service history, including having been awarded the silver and bronze stars for valor. Yeah. That was true. Like that was. That's a thing. I never understand. I'm like, you have like your respected. You have accolades. Yes. Like and you did the thing. Yeah. Like you did the thing. You're not like lying about doing the thing. You did the thing. You did the hard work. Like good job. Why are you pushing for more? I never understand. I'm like, why are you pushing past that? I don't get it. I'll never understand that. I don't know where it started.

16:38Like when he decided to like push that much further and push the narrative that much further. And I want to completely invent it because you want to like, you know, but. I don't get the like, I did all that, but I'm going to pretend I didn't even more. Right. Like it's weird. Yeah. His brother said it's just a bit of a lie that starts to exponentially grow over a period of time. And there's nothing you can do about it. It got out of control. So I don't know if he like first made some kind of off-handed comment about his time. And then it kind of started snowballing. Yeah. I mean, no matter what it was wrong, obviously, for sure was, but you're like, yeah, I guess you're like, where did that come from? But when the news was made public that that was a lie, several members of the campaign decided to step down. And a few notable endorsements were retracted. But Michael did decide to press on anyways with the campaign to he told a reporter, I've been absolutely stunned by people's understanding compassion and generosity. So I'm like, all right. I feel like I'm misunderstanding like, what did you say? Like what? What? No. Unfortunately, good willing compassion were not enough to win an election.

17:41And in October of 99, Michael conceded vowing though to continue to use his position to put pressure on the new administration. One thing about me is that my vitamin supplement routine is on law, honey. And you know, I have symbiotic plus all up in there. We are learning so much about how the gut microbiome is key to our mental health, our immunity, and of course our digestion. rituals got your back or rather your biome with symbiotic plus, which is a three and one supplement of clinically studied pre pro and postbiotics to support a balance got my grow biome with daily use. With rituals and biotic plus, all you need is one daily mint scented capsule for bloat, gut, and regularity support. It's vegan friendly and formulated without GMOs, major allergens, animal products, or shady fillers or artificial colors. I love knowing all of that, just how vegan friendly it is and like all of the above, like it's genuinely feels good.

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21:58Now with the mayoral campaign behind them, Michael and Kathleen kind of settled back into their domestic routine. But it wasn't long before their lives were rocked yet again this time after the terror attacks on the US and 9-11. Nortel networks, which like I said, Kathleen worked for, they weren't like directly affected by the attacks, but like a lot of companies in the US at that time, they suffered a lot of financial loss. Yeah, low profits, like all that kind of stuff. As the director of communications for the company, Kathleen was among a just a handful of people at the company who were expected to come up with a solution to the problem. And her job essentially depended on it. By December of 2001, Nortel's financial problems were consuming a lot of Kathleen's waking hours, like even when she wasn't at work. Yeah, she was preoccupied and she was stressed one away from her desk. That's her stock options in the company, which also accounted for a big portion of her retirement plan had also dropped by over a million dollars. And the company's downturn made it so that she also had to fire multiple people who were below her, which like that's never a fun feeling.

23:06No, no, even though Michael had recently sold the film rights to one of his books for $600,000, the problems at Nortel were more than just financial problems and financial losses. Kathleen had worked for that company for so long and put so much of herself into that job. Yeah, that she felt like a failure, no matter how untrue that was. It's just like emotionally that's hard. Yeah, she's put her whole life into it. Now, she was doing her best to whether the post 9-11 financial storm at work. Michael was dealing now with his own new disappointment. The sale of the film rights for his book was a major win, especially after the potential hit to the retirement account. Yeah, for sure. But he was continuing to struggle with his political ambitions. After the failed campaign, he picked himself up and he actually decided to run for a seat on City Council in fall of 2001. But unfortunately that campaign was no more successful than the previous one. Now, given all the anxiety and all the stress that had been going on for several months at home and at work on December 8th, Michael said,

24:07you know what, Kathleen, let's take a day for ourselves. Let's go out together. We're going to do some Christmas shopping. We'll have a nice dinner, have a couple glasses of wine, you know, we'll just live. We're just going to live. Gonna have a nice time. So they did. That sounds nice. But what happened next remains the subject of wild speculation and probably will continue to for years to come. Yeah, because this is all in the eyes of the law. It's not a mystery, but in the eyes of spectators, this is still feels like a mystery. Yeah. Now, according to Michael, he and Kathleen enjoyed a great day together. And then by the end of the night, they were relaxing out by the pool, having some wine, talking, just chatting. Kathleen had an important conference call the next morning though and she didn't want to stay up too late. So around 1 a.m., she got up and went inside and was going to get ready for bed. Content to sit by the pool for a little bit longer though. Michael was like, I'll come in and just a little bit later. He said it was a beautiful magical night with the pool shimmering in the star's glistening. So you just wanted to relax. Yeah.

25:07Why not? Now, Michael later claimed that he dosed off by the pool and woke up about an hour later. He carried the wine glasses into the kitchen. He rinsed them in the sink and then he went around the den to call the dogs into the house. That's when he claims to have seen Kathleen for the first time since she went inside an hour earlier. Kathleen was sprawled at the foot of the stairs, lying motionless in a large pool of blood. Her eyes were open and she was staring vagantly into the distance. Once the shock of the discovery had worn off, Michael claims he ran to her and lifted her into his arms. And he said she was limp. She was dying. Whoa. Now realizing obviously they needed to call an ambulance. He laid Kathleen back on the floor and ran to the phone to call 911 and he told the operator, my wife had an accident. She's still breathing. She fell down the stairs. She's still breathing. Please come. Once he was assured that emergency services were on their way, he just dropped the phone and went back to Kathleen. Now coincidentally, Michael son Todd and his girlfriend arrived just as the ambulance police, the ambulance and the police were pulling up to the house.

26:11And when Todd saw his stepmother on the floor by the stairs, his instinct was to call his friend Ben, whose wife Heather was a doctor. Okay. The other couple, I don't think they lived too far away. Yeah. So they arrived a few moments later, but by that time EMS was there and they were like, we're not gonna interfere with anything here. So they just kind of focused their attention on Michael who at that point was in a days. I can imagine. Yeah. So while the paramedics tended to Kathleen, a detective, a detective art Holland from the Durham police surveyed the scene. When the call came in, the dispatcher said that there had been an accident. But as soon as he got there, our Holland was pretty skeptical of the initial report. In 2006 later, he told NBC News, this didn't look like an accident. I identified myself to Mr. Peterson and explained to him that I was sorry for his loss, but that it appeared that the scene looks suspicious and needed to be processed. Okay. So this slowly started to. Yeah. To something very different, very different, very quickly. Yeah. And Michael's recollection, he said, at least 20 police officers swarmed through the house.

27:14They immediately and roughly separated us do not talk to one another. They ordered. Wow. Now in that moment, it occurred to Todd, his son, that the police suspected death. Kathleen's death was not an accident. Yeah. And since Michael had been the only person in the house at that time, they obviously suspected him of murder. Yeah. So Todd went and got on the phone and called his uncle, Michael's brother Bill, who was an attorney in Nevada. Bill's advice could not have been any clearer. He said, do not say anything to the police right now. Okay. Now after which like, that's pretty common. Yeah, I mean, that's usually good advice. I don't know how easy it is, but it's good advice. Yeah. After that, Todd handed the phone over to Detective Holland and Bill informed him. He was representing Michael and under no circumstances were the police to question his client without Bill present. Yeah. Which, okay, hey, that's, I mean, that's what are you supposed to do? Yeah, I'm not mad yet. Yeah, I'm not mad yet. So while Detective Holland waited for Michael's lawyer to arrive, crime scene technician started processing the scene. Most important, at least from Holland's perspective, was state bureau of investigation crime scene analysis, which is like literally the longest title ever.

28:19Really? Dwayne Devers conclusions about the scene after measuring the blood spatter on the wall and evaluating the wounds on Kathleen's head. Devers was also suspicious of Michael's story. Okay. Among his most significant findings, which did later come into question. I would like to say that the top like his findings came into question personal findings on this case and many others. Oh, it's a question. Okay. So I just want to say that up the top. Yeah, that's it relevant information. But he wrote that there was the presence of many small droplets of blood indicating that it had they've been left as cast off from a weapon. So that's like you hit somebody with something you'll pull back and it's the blood sauce. Yeah. Yeah. And he said it had been a weapon that was swung with considerable force. Interesting. He said he also found areas on the stairs where the blood was smeared like somebody had tried to clean it up with a towel. Okay. And he said there was blood spatter on Michael Peterson shorts that appeared like somebody had tried to wash the spots away. Huh. Todd Peterson also had blood on his clothing, but later it was explained to a jury.

29:23It was the kind that of it was the kind of transfer that you would expect if Todd had been close to the victim like kneel down or something like that. Okay. Whereas the blood on Michael's clothing, yeah, it never said was the type of cast off spray. He would expect if the wearer was present when the injury was inflicted. Okay. Makes sense. Yeah. So according to Michael, the entire situation was so confusing, so surreal. Later that night when he was able to leave the house, he said he was shocked by the flashes of countless cameras going off. As soon as he stepped out the front door, that would be shocking. It also just immediately reminds me of Gone Girl. Yes. Like when Ben Affleck is like just in a days when Ben Affleck exactly what it sounds like. Yeah. Yeah. So it hadn't occurred to him that this would be a news story, much less one that would dominate headlines around the country eventually. Yeah. But that's when things really started to sink in for him and by then his lawyer had arrived with his brother and put his arm around him and was like,

30:23things are about to get a whole lot worse just so you know, that would be so fucking scary. One like if you were innocent, if you're innocent, yeah, which the law does not say he is, but again, people have their doubts. Yeah. I can't imagine your whole life changing like that in just a blink, like a you like you decided to and that's the other thing too after like having all this like this period of stress and yeah, financial stress and like you decide to like put it all aside and have a nice night and it ends like this. And it's just you staying outside if again, if like you're innocent, staying outside just like to get some more fresh air and kind of vibe a little. Those are, you know, that happened. Enjoy your wine. Yeah. And you come back into a literal nightmare. Dang. So the investigators assigned to the case did have reason to be suspicious of Kathleen's death for one thing. There was a ton of blood at this scene and it did seem that there was so much cast off that it was impossible. It could have come from a simple fall down the stairs. Interesting.

31:24The scene had also been contaminated due to what investigators later learned was Michael's frantic movements around the house. Obviously the instinct to do this is completely understandable. Yeah. But by holding Kathleen in his arms, he had transferred a ton of blood onto his own clothes and body. And that made it extremely difficult to determine what was cast off and what was transfer, which like again, if you're looking at it from a human perspective, the first thing you want to do to your loved one when they are bleeding or in pain. Is her is to hold them like and help them if I found you at the bottom of the grab John. That's exactly like that's and I know that's not okay. Like in legal wise, but you're not thinking about the investigation. But I don't think I could fight an instinct to like grab him. No. Yeah. But then there was the blood that was tracked through the house. It seemed like everywhere investigators looked from the walkway outside to the front door to the kitchen sink. There was blood smeared on like every surface. Yeah. Which is weird. That is weird. Now upon first examining the body at the crime scene, the medical examiner found a quote,

32:26four inch laceration to Kathleen's skull and what appeared to be three or four injuries that may have been caused by a fall. Okay. At the time, like just right there at the scene, he couldn't be certain that it was in fact a fall. Yeah. And once the autopsy was completed, more laceration to Kathleen's skull were discovered. So Dr. Snell noted the quote, injuries were not consistent with a fall. But were consistent with an assaultive beating type pattern. Oh, yeah. At that point, the cause of death was listed as death by Blunt Force trauma. Oh, shit. Yeah. So the next day, the news of Kathleen's death broke in the local press and investigators were though being extremely cautious about what information was released. So at first, it was news, but it wasn't like front page news. Yeah. A few days later, though, they placed the limited amount of information squarely with Michael. Oh, Lieutenant Ed Sarvis told reporters. We're looking for anything that would lead us to determine what the cause of death is. We would also like to talk with Mr. Peterson about this.

33:27He chose not to speak with us and that has made it more difficult. It affects how we can proceed. Damn. Which is out in that completely. It immediately casts. Oh, of course it does. Weird. Like when a husband and a wife are together and the husband survives and the wife dies immediately, everybody thinks the husband did it. Yeah. But then you have a lieutenant telling you that he's also not being cooperative. He also won't talk to them. It's like, of course, that's the first thing you're going to think. The public is going to be like, okay. Yeah. So for Michael, though, this was all part of a larger plan for the police from his perspective, all the talk of the suspicious death and detective seeming to go out of their way to make the case something bigger. Was all their way of getting back at him for years of newspaper columns where he had criticized local law enforcement. Damn. Remember, I told you a lot of his opinion pieces were coming out of our city officials. Holy shit, though. Yeah. I mean, that would be a lot. That is not a proportionate response. And definitely not.

34:27It's that was what it was. Right. Now within a week of Kathleen's death, the tone around the case did start to change. And dissipating that he would obviously be suspected in the public eye. And he obviously knew that he was in the law of the eye or the eye of the law in the law of the eye. Michael, it's a different kind of law. It's all different. Yeah. I was actually saying three separate things there. Yeah. The law of the eye is different from the law of the nose. Yes. There's also the long arm of the law. There is. So yeah. And the arm of the arm long of the law. Yes. Always there's there's different variations here. But because of all those variations, Michael took the to the press to defend himself. His lawyer, he had like a whole team of lawyers. So I'm going to reference different ones up. Yeah. And you're going to be like, is that a new one? And I'm going to be like, you're going to say yes. One of the lawyers Barry Winston told a reporter, Michael is dealing with a terrible load of grief over the death of his wife and feels he's being treated. And a somewhat unusual fashion by the police. So that was now also going out. Okay. For the people of Durham, Kathleen's death was yet another bizarre twist in the life of one of the city's most intriguing and unusual residents.

35:29Because everybody found Michael to be like a little bit. Accent trick. Accent trick. Yeah. But to authorities, it was looking less and less like an accident every day. That the investigation went on. Damn. On December 20th for the first time in more than a decade, a special grand jury was convened to evaluate the evidence and determine whether the death could be classified a homicide. By that time, investigators on the case had publicly declared the death suspicious and had told the grand jury that they had been investigating the case as a possible homicide. Whoa. Now, just one day later, the grand jury returned an indictment against Michael Peterson for the first degree murder of his wife. Whoa. And that was after hearing the medical examiner's testimony that Kathleen's injuries have been caused by a blow to the head rather than a fall. Dr. Deborah Radish said the head wounds were caused by some sort of blunt object. We don't usually see multiple injuries of that kind of severity in a fall down the steps. And the doctor also noted that Kathleen didn't have any skin under her fingernails as one might if they fought off an intruder.

36:32Yeah. But that there were signs she attempted to defend herself, including trace amounts of blood underneath her nails. Oh, that was interesting. That is interesting. Despite having expected to be a target, the arrest itself did come as a shock to Michael when he was arrested. As he entered the police station to turn himself in, he told a reporter, I would have never done anything to hurt her. I am innocent of these charges and I can't wait to prove it in court. Now, by then, like I said, he had assembled a team of lawyers and that was led by prominent Chapel Hill attorney David Rudolph. I'm pretty sure he's in the documentary. Oh, okay. There's like a whole slew of them that are so many of them are in there. It's been a while since I watched, but whenever they're like talking about it, like it's literally a long table filled with lawyers. Yeah. Now, as his client was being booked on the murder charge, Rudolph was putting together a 20 page brief that laid out basic elements of their defense. That Kathleen's death was either the result of a fall or that she'd been killed by an intruder while Michael slept by the pool.

37:33Oh, he said, if in fact someone struck Mrs. Peterson as the police seemed to believe it is far more likely to have been an intruder. Then Michael Peterson. Okay. We'll explore that in a minute because when I first read that, I was like, you're like, is it far more likely? But there is an interesting piece that I'll talk. I mean, I'm willing to hear it out. This episode is brought to you by SoFi, the all in one finance app where you can bank, borrow and invest all in one place. Let's talk about bank accounts for a second. The average bank savings rate is 0.39% in interest. You're earning pennies on your savings and it doesn't have to be that way. But with SoFi's high yield checkings and savings, the money barely making moves sitting in your savings account can earn over eight times the national average savings rate with eligible direct deposit. No account or overdraft fees.

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39:34There's Hills science does more ready to let go of the guilt find the right food at Hills pet dot com slash podcast. That's Hills pet dot com slash podcast. This is a paid ad by better help. If I could wake up tomorrow and just like automatically drink all the water that I'm required to drink in one day that I really should be drinking. And I don't know just like spend an appropriate amount of time on my phone. I would feel so fantastic. Wouldn't that be beautiful? Most of us aren't trying to become completely different people. We're just hoping to feel a little bit better every day and better doesn't have to come from these major victories. It can be from small habits that you create and how you honor your needs on a daily basis. So many of us are great at optimizing even the small things for our loved ones. But what about ourselves and remember better looks different to everyone. That's what's so great about better help with them better is personal better help connects you with a qualified therapist online and with thousands of therapists and millions of members across more than a hundred countries.

40:36It's helped so many people make meaningful progress toward feeling better. See for yourself. Find a therapist who gets you and is in your corner. Sign up and get 10% off at betterhelp.com slash morbid. That's better help HELP slash morbid. So with the judge having put off Michael's bond hearing until after the holiday. Michael did spend that Christmas in jail while his friends and family celebrated Kathleen's life and mourned the loss of her. So to those who did know him best the Michaels arrest was shocking and the idea that he killed Kathleen was completely out of the question. Okay. Kathleen's own sister Candace said my brother and law is an amazing man and I'm standing by his side. He's innocent. He did nothing but love my sister and she loved him. And I mean, that is an interesting piece. Yeah, that it's not like there's a bunch of people being like, you know. There was weird. So screaming all the time. They were really controlling and like it was it got a little scary.

41:38And I don't know. Yeah. Like they're literally being like, nah, I'm going to stay by him. Not in a million years. That's pretty wild. But the thing is opinions in the beginning of this case slowly shift over time. Not everybody's. But there were some people in the beginning of this who stood completely by him who were then swayed by evidence. Okay. I will say. Yeah, because I don't I know like the over arching view of this whole thing. I know all the details. So this is interesting. I'm kind of learning it as we go. It is a very interesting case. Yeah. Like it's strange. So at that point, Kathleen's sister was standing by him and so were all the kids. That sentiment was also shared by Michael's friends and colleagues like the Charlotte observer reporter David Proleman. He said he adored her. He was constantly talking about her. Now, while friends and family couldn't accept the possibility that Michael killed Kathleen. His theory about an accidental fall did seem more than possible. Kathleen was taking value at the time to deal with recent spikes and anxiety.

42:38Okay. And mixing value with alcohol is obviously known to have serious effects, especially on one's motor functions. For sure. Additionally, Michael and Kathleen were known to be regular drinkers. Okay. And it wasn't that out of character for either of them to drink to the point of intoxication. All right. It's not there's a lot of people to drink to that point. On the other hand, though, it also seemed possible to most that somebody could have broken into the Peterson's house and attacked Kathleen, especially if Michael had been sleeping soundly by the pool. And that's what I was kind of alluding to earlier. Yeah. That very summer, like the summer before, the Peterson's house was one of four in the area that had been broken into while Michael and Kathleen were both home. And in that case, they were outside and completely unaware of the intruder who stole Kathleen's blackberry and a few small items. Okay. Well, I mean, that's interesting. Right. Is that first? Because I feel like, well, I don't know. It doesn't really feel like that's a normal thing to be like, yeah, somebody just broken while you were outside.

43:40Yeah. If it happened or anything happened. And you also, because I think that sounds crazy to a lot of us because we don't live in like gigantic homes. This is essentially, it's a really big house. Like it's a 14 room house. There's also like a long walkway. There's a pool. They're farther away from the house. Yeah. So they might not have heard something. Yeah. And also you're sitting by a pool, which is like is making noise in and of itself. Yeah. That's it. Like you're surrounded by ambient noise. Right. Yeah. I could see that. So the more you said, it's like, all right. It could have happened. That's something. Yeah. And given that previous break in, it did start to make sense to people that if there wasn't intruder, the intruder may have been caught off guard by Kathleen. And maybe he attacked her and then flood the house. Yeah. You know, yeah. Absolutely. David Rudolph said, if police are right and it wasn't an accidental fall, what they need to look for is an intruder. Yeah. Which I think is fair. I think so. Now as far as Michael and his lawyers were building their defense and vigorously speaking out in the press, investigators were quietly obviously building their own case.

44:40Yeah. It was the initial crime scene that prompted their suspicions that Kathleen's death wasn't an accident. But since that night, other details came to light that strength in their suspicions. Michael and his lawyers claimed that Kathleen's death had been the result of a fall down the stairs, but the medical examiner disagreed and noted that it had actually been the blood loss from seven distinct head wounds from a blunt object that was why she died. Blood loss. Oh, yeah. And seven distinct head wounds, seven distinct head wounds. Yeah. And those were like lacerations. Yeah. Now the toxicology report also showed Kathleen's blood alcohol level was at .07. So that's under the legal limit for intoxication. Okay. It's not well below the limit. No, but it's below the limit. And when you consider that mixed with volume, for sure, the combination of the two could have caused enough impairment that she lost her balance. Yeah. But it wasn't going to be super compelling to show a jury that either. No, it absolutely wouldn't.

45:40There was also the fact that while Michael did call 911 to report the accident and get help, the medical examiner determined that Kathleen had been lying on the floor, and this has come into question a lot this time period. But the medical examiner said it was from anywhere anywhere from 90 minutes to two hours before 911 was called. So you were from 90 minutes to so is this from when he found her or from when she hit the ground she fell. Okay. So like they're saying that and that's it's where the way that you ask that question. I think about people sitting on that jury and trying to and trying to kind of like, so how long was he outside. Right. And then when did he come in because he said it had been like about an hour. Yeah. But then you say it's 90 minutes. That's an extra half hour right there. And if you're saying what two hours was 90 minutes to go to it's like. So like, but that's also hard to wrap your head around like yeah.

46:42That big of a time. And like what you were doing in that time because like you very well could have been sitting outside vibing for that whole time. And then you could have come in to hell right and then call 911. Or you could have done any number of things in that amount of time. Like exactly. That's a wild amount of time to have free to do whatever you need to do. But it's also a pretty normal amount of time to be sitting outside vibing outside. Right. So either way he had already said that he was outside. And he said it had been like an hour since he went in. Everybody has to sit and think for a second. Yeah. You're not really like so sure about what time things happen. No. I'm actually horrible about how much time has passed at a given time. Right. Because I think I'd be like, I don't know. Maybe I was out there for two days. I'm not sure. Like I would have no idea. And he was sleeping too. So you wake you think you're not sure. That makes it even harder. You're like, but again. If he wasn't outside sleeping and she was it had been 90 minutes between her getting to the end of that staircase and like calling 911. That's a long time.

47:51Yeah. And a lot of time for you to do a lot of stuff. And they had said that it seemed like some of the blood had been tried to be cleaned up. Yeah. But then at the same time there was also a shit ton of blood everywhere. Yeah. I also just have to laugh because you said it seemed like the blood had been tried to be cleaned. Yeah. I was a weird way to say it. I was going to let it go. But blood was trying to clean up. It was trying to clean itself up. It was just the way he said it. Maybe I had to put it out or I would have laughed at it. It's inappropriate. I totally accept it. But yeah. That's that's another thing. It's like art because those again could be they tried to be you know they tried to clean the blood up or that like she had moved at some point. Yeah. If she was alive for any amount of time maybe trying to get back up the stairs and like reached for something and smeared blood. Yeah. And he accidentally smitten like there's just so many variables here. Right. Which if you did it, that's pretty brilliant to create a hundred different very like that it's a perfect thing because there's so many ways to explain one thing.

48:57But if you didn't, it's completely detrimental to you because now there's a million different way this could have happened in a couple of those ways, including being a murderer. And it's like that's not good. Well, that 90 minute to two hour period like of you know like that's what they're saying. Of what's going on. What's going on. That was determined based mostly on the paramedics report that when they arrived on the scene, some of the blood around Kathleen's body appeared to have already dried or starting to dry. And that would take anywhere from an hour to two hours to occur. But that also makes me wonder why did you say 90 minutes then if it takes an hour to two hours. And that's why that time period is called into question a lot with this case. Yeah. You know, yeah, because it's like an hour or 60 minutes. So like where did 90 minutes come from. It's not just like you ever check it out. I don't know if they if they were allotting for the time that it took like obviously I don't think it took investigators a half hour to get there, but like take a little bit of time. That's what I'm wondering. I'm like, were you just like kind of guess what an it a little bit like estimating. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah. That's not my expertise is now. I just think blood cleans itself up. Yes, you do.

50:06So as far as prosecutor, Jim Harding, good tell the evidence at the scene, along with what he deemed as Michael's unusual behavior added up to murder. Yeah. But for the district attorney's office, they needed to answer an important question of why. Why would he kill her. Well, that's that's the big thing that's just like sitting out there in the ether. What's the motive is like by all accounts. They were like the happiest couple that ever coupled. That's the thing. Where did this come from. And that's what they were having. What what what happened. That's what they were having trouble with. Yeah. But then as crime scene technicians combed through Michael Peterson's personal computer, they finally found what they believed was the motive for murder. A private folder on that computer containing thousands of images of nude men. Oh, yeah. Okay. Now when confronted with the evidence, Michael explained that he was bisexual, but that was something that he kept private from everybody in his life, including Kathleen. Okay.

51:09So he was out in which really sucks. That does suck because he also kept a private from everybody. And again, I don't know like he was found guilty. Obviously you said in the eyes of the law. So in Alfred, he's like, it's like an Alfred. So the law says he's guilty, but he maintains his innocence. Okay. So that's so we're going to weird. Nambios place. Yes. That just sucks to be out in. Yeah. When you when you've kept it from everybody. Exactly. You know, like everybody in your life. Yeah. Certain that the news was going to get out though at that point. Michael called his brother Bill and explained what the police had found, which like if he is innocent, that's something if he's wanting to be innocent. And then he wanted to keep that secret. And then he's having to tell his close friends and family and also be like, this is not a motive. That's wrong. My bisexuality is not a motive. Yeah. And this is also the early 2000s. Yeah. So that's going to sway the court of public of nature is.

52:10So he told his brother, what the police had found. And he just basically wanted to get ahead of any major revelations in the press and asked Bill to also sit down with the kids and help him explain this to them. Oh, because now it's going to be. Yeah. I can imagine keeping this a private secret for like 50 plus or 40 plus years of my life. Yeah. And then having it be outed like that, if especially if you're innocent, that's a total special. If you're innocent. And if you're guilty, well, I don't know. Yeah. That's, you know, I'm not getting into that. I'm not getting. But it's, but just if the reason I'm saying if you're innocent, obviously, it's like not cool to do anybody, but like, no, if you're innocent, the reason that it's like, oh, is because like you've just lost your the love of your life. Right. If you're innocent, you've just lost the love of your life in a horrific fashion. And now you're being accused of doing it. And on top of that, now you've been outed to your entire family in the whole world. Like that's a truck like that's a lot of tragedy on top of each other. Right. You know, and a lot to have to come to terms with. Yeah.

53:14Exactly. So he got Michael kind of asked Bill, like, can you just sit down and explain this to the kids and like, I'll be there. But like just being like, can you just help me please. Yeah. So at first when Bill told Caitlin, who is Michael stepdaughter about his sexuality, she was pretty unfazed. She even was like, she remembered saying, I don't know, like, what does that have to do with my mom like the case right now? Like whatever, man. But Bill explained that Michael sexual orientation really didn't have anything to do with the case. But the press was likely to found out to find out. And he didn't want things to get blown out of proportion. Yeah. Later Caitlin said, I feel like the way Bill said it to me that Michael maybe had an experience or two. Bill made me feel like it was just a casual thing that people might start talking about. And he didn't want me to think of Michael as a different person. Oh, man, which is fair. Yeah. But he's not a different person. If he holds your mom, he's a different person for sure he is. He's not sexual. He's not. Yeah. So a few days later, Caitlin brought up the subject with her sisters, Margaret and Martha, who also had been talked to and they reacted to the news similarly.

54:14Like they were like, okay, yeah, it was probably being like, why is this relevant? Yeah, exactly. It wasn't something that they really wanted to think about. And it really didn't seem to have anything to do with Kathleen's death. So they were like, it really doesn't matter to us. Yeah, like you like whatever you're whatever you like you like. Yeah. Yeah. But especially with your dad, you're just like, I don't need to know this. It's your life. Yeah. Yeah. You wanted that. I don't like there's bigger things at hand. Yeah. But I guess the more they talked about it, the more they started to remember different things from their childhood, they remembered a book of gay fiction on the shelf in Michael's office and what was described as quote weird artwork and items that glorified the male body. There was also a pink flamingo displayed pro prominently by his fireplace as young teenagers. I know that really points to any. I don't think it's like a pink flamingo. I love the point of pink flamingo. Yeah. But I'm also queer. But I also think like my grandparents had a pink flamingo hang from their bathroom and they were a straight couple. Yeah.

55:14Now the thing was as young teenagers, these things had always been viewed as representations of Michael's, I guess, Borg centric side, all taken together. Obviously not just a pink flamingo. But now in light of everything that happened, a small voice in the back of everybody's heads started to question if it was more than just a casual and trusted men. Yeah. And when the news about Michael's sexuality reached the extended family, that small voice in the back of everybody's heads started to become amplified because now everybody was talking about it and speculating and wondering if this was a motive. Yeah. So one afternoon during a meeting with her aunts Candace and Lori and her grandmother Veronica, Caitlin. So that was Kathleen's mother and two sisters. Okay. Caitlin was caught off guard when one of them raised the quote unquote issue of Michael sexuality. At first, when she heard about his orientation, like we just said, everything seemed irrelevant. He was married to her mom. They were in love with each other. So his interest in men seemed kind of like a moot point.

56:14Especially because it's like, you're, I never understand like when it becomes this big of a deal, especially when like you're bisexual. Right. Because it's like, okay, well, right now you are in a relationship with a woman. Right. A committed relationship with a woman. Like, as if you're straight, if you get married, it's not like you lose interest in the like, you know, you know what I mean? Like it's like, I don't know. It just doesn't make sense to me that it's like, okay, well, he's married to her. Well, he's married to a woman. So now we have to worry about him still trying to like, have an affair with men. Right. Like, well, no, he's in a committed relationship. Yeah. Because when you're, like what you're saying is like when you're a straight person, people aren't worried about you having a affair. Yeah. Like exactly. I couldn't describe it. But I was trying to say it. Like people are not always worried about straight people having like affairs with other people. Yeah. You know, you know, even like if you're in a committed relationship, I don't know if it's like, there's more options. And that's what people are worried about. That's what it is. I know he's like, strikes me as interesting because I'm like, I feel like that gets more scrutiny.

57:14A lot of people in the LGBTQ LGBTQ community get targeted for certain things. But I also feel like bisexual people get like weirdly demonized for being attracted to both. Yeah. That makes sense to both. Yeah. Genders are interesting to me. Yeah. But the thing was the more Caitlin's aunts talked, the more she started to question whether there was something going on that she didn't know about in her parents marriage because who knows if all those things were being speculated on. Exactly. I think the biggest point of speculation here was was he having an affair and was with a man likely and was that the motive. Yeah. Which I guess if I'm thinking about him, like, okay, because like again, I was like, just because he's bisexual, he must be having an affair, even though he's in a committed relationship with someone. But then you bought it with the nude images. That's the thing that when you now that I'm like putting it there, I'm like, okay, well, you do have to question that because even if this was a like a straight person, if you find images of another woman. Yeah. On their computer. Of course, you're going to be like, well, that's not a committed relationship.

58:18Right. Exactly. So later, Caitlin said, one of the things that really freaked me out was when they asked me why I thought Michael was at the YMCA all those long hours every night. And after that conversation, even though she really didn't want to think about it, she couldn't help but wonder was he having an affair with a man or men. So I can understand why taking all that together, you would question it. Well, and now with everything going on, yes, fairs happened to be a pretty big reason for people to murder other people. Yes. A big motive. Yeah. Now, if it had just been some rumors and some in you end up about Michael sexuality in his private life, Caitlin and her siblings probably would have stayed on her father. So yeah, for sure. Or stepfather side throughout this or it entire ordeal. And the months that followed the more new information started to come to light. And it did seem like there was a lot of a lot to Michael Peterson that none of them knew about like there was some meat on the bone here. There was more like even not just the the private sexuality. Yeah. By 2002, the autopsy report where Kathleen's death was labeled a homicide at that point was made public.

59:23So that prompted Michael's defense team to have to propose a new theory involving a mysterious intruder. And then when you're when you're going to new theories like that, it doesn't seem like you're so sure what's going on. That's the foundation starts looking a little weak at least to the public. I'm not saying they weren't sure about what they were defending. But like to the public, it looks that absolutely. So even the autopsy report though wasn't enough to shake the defense's confidence in Michael. And even a lot of the families confidence in Michael. But then in the spring reports of another suspicious death in Michael's past changed everybody's perspective on the case. Yeah. Many years earlier, while still living with his first wife, Patty in Germany. Michael had befriended another American couple. I told you to remember their names Elizabeth and George Ratliffe. Yes. They were stationed on the same military base and they lived just a few houses down from Patty and Michael. Over the years, the families got close and that bond intensified in 1983 when George was unfortunately killed in Panama.

1:00:24And that left Elizabeth alone to raise their two young daughters Margaret and Martha. So if you remember, Michael later adopted. Yes. So before Elizabeth died, her husband, Sudden death sent her into a spiral of depression. And during that time, she asked Michael and Patty to take care of the girls if anything should happen to her. And they were like, of course, we will. No, on the evening of November 25th, 1985, Patty and Michael had dinner with Elizabeth in their home. And when dinner was done, Michael took Patty home the next morning, the Ratliffe's housekeeper arrived and found Elizabeth dead at the bottom of a staircase. Oh, yeah. Oh, that's interesting. Yeah. So German authorities at the time concluded that Elizabeth had suffered a brain aneurysm that likely resulted in a fall down the stairs. After the case was closed, her body was sent to Texas where her family lived.

1:01:25And that's when guardianship of Margaret and Martha went to Michael and Patty. When the Peter since split up a year later, Michael and the girls moved to the US. And that's where he eventually met Kathleen. And that's where the whole story began. Interesting. But for 15 years, the death of Elizabeth Ratliffe had been a tragic fact of the families past. But nobody considered it anything other than an accident. Yeah. Yeah. In light of Kathleen's death, though, where she was discovered dead at the bottom of a staircase. Elizabeth supposedly accidental death was now being given new consideration. Yeah. Due to the remarkable similarities in both cases. Yeah. Kathleen's sister at that point told her reporter, Liz Ratliffe was found dead at the bottom of the stairs. And Mike Peterson was the last person to see her alive. Don't you find that a little odd? I do. And that's where we're going to end part one. Goddamn. I too would find that a little odd. I'm not saying that immediately points to guilt. I'm saying that is strange.

1:02:26That is strange. And it's something you do have to take into consideration here. And also because what are the odds? That's if you're fucking innocent in both cases, you got shit luck. Yeah. You are in the wrong place at the wrong time. All the time. Yeah, exactly. All the time. Exactly. Damn. So yeah, that's where we're end. But I think it's time for a little fun fact. I think it is. This segment is brought to you by State Farm. So my fun fact that I found for you is that there's a thunderstorm called Hector the Convector. I love this. I'm obsessed with that. He arrives every day at 3pm. Yeah, he does. This is from BBC Science Focus by the way. They wrote, most thunderstorms are unpredictable, but not Hector. No, never Hector. Thanks to a micro climate over the Tui Islands off the coast of Northern Australia, Hector

1:03:32arrives every day at 3pm from September through March. He's also huge. He's also huge. I'm not really... Regularly reaching more than 19 km high, which is 12 miles. Wow. Hector. Hector the Convector forever. Right. I'm obsessed with that. I love how reliable he is. Yeah. He sounds like a catch. He's fantastic. He's always on time. He's reliable. He's tall. He's tall. He's tall. He gives you his all. You know what I mean? Yeah, that's Hector. He's a giant... People who...no science are going to be like, ash, just say it. Come...come on, Olympus. How do you say... Comeyla Olympus. Comeyla Olympus. What? It's a Comeyla Olympus. Comeyla Olympus. I would have never read that. I would have never read that word to... I was like, come on, Kulus. Can you say that again?

1:04:32Comeyla Olympus. Comeyla Olympus. Comeyla Olympus. Yeah, it's like a kind of...it's like a thunder club. Yeah, that's what he is. Or a multi-cellular, which I can say, thunder storm. It's crazy, though. I love Hector. I love him a lot. I just love that his name is Hector. Yeah, first of all, the Convector. Don't forget his last name. The Convector. Yeah. And then it just makes me think in Hell House LLC, when, remember, the guy names that like mannequin Hector? Yeah, Hector. And every time I think of it... Those are two very different Hectors, to be honest. They are Hector in Hell House. Hell House LLC didn't seem like he was reliable. He was reliable to scare the crap out of you. Yeah, he sure was. Yeah. But this Hector is like, here I am, baby. Yeah, he's just a good man. He's a good man. I love that. I really like that one. Microclimates are fascinating. Micro? I don't know a lot about microclimates. Because you think of a climate as being this huge, like, overarching thing. Yeah.

1:05:32But a microclimate that's able to make a storm every day, at a certain time. 3 p.m. I want to know everything about that. I might become hyper fixated on this. Are we going to do... Oh, wait, that's actually really cute. Because the cloud punched so high and stayed so reliable. That's why they gave him a reliable nickname or like a playful human name. Oh, my God, I love that. That's really cute. And I think it was World War II pilots that named him. I love that. It's beautiful, so adorable. Hector, those are fun facts. That is a fun fact. I said our fun fact statement. Our fun fact statement today. Thank you. Go learn everything you can about Hector, their convector with me. We'll get together next time. We'll talk about everybody. Hector Club. Yeah, Hector Club, Unite. Thank you again to our sponsor state farm for sponsoring this segment. Well, with that, we hope you keep listening. And we hope you keep it weird. But not so weird, but you don't study Hector.

1:06:33Yeah. Keep it that weird. Yeah. Bye. Thank you. Thank you.

1:07:55Thank you. Bye.

1:08:55Thank you.