0:00Hey weirdos, I'm Elena. You are? Yeah, I'm Ash. What? This is morbid There you go I was gonna say it. I don't know. I guess I was gonna hang us all out here. That's okay What if we just did an episode once where we just never said and this is morbid and we just like kept talking No one would know where they were and then we were like oh and it's morbid by the way like at the end we said it I think everyone would be like I know Yeah, probably Yeah, probably. I'm like it's like a Sunday morning right now the rain is not falling Mm-hmm, but I feel so tight-tied. I am also tired. Yeah, so you didn't sleep last night. I slept last night I did not I'm ready for it to be it's like almost September

1:00And it doesn't feel like it even in the slightest bit. I Need it one thing though. I'm gonna make Drew get my boxes of all my decorations Up in in my living room it's about to be Halloween up in here. A bitch is gonna put on maybe practical magic Maybe focus focus perhaps the corp spread. I suggested Coraline, but she said no. I here's the thing. I like Coraline But it's not my go-to Halloween movie. I feel that it's sad and I feel bad that she got dealt such shitty parents. True You know she learns a lot about herself though She does and like I was saying earlier we were talking about it earlier I was like her mom's nice in the end But you shouldn't have to lose your daughter almost to an evil entity to decide like hey, I think I like you That's valid. I should maybe spend some time with you. It's very valid. Yeah, I think her parents just pissed me off Yeah, they definitely suck her mom's a bitch. Her mom is a bitch. Yeah, dad's just kind of dumb and her dad is an idiot Doesn't do anything. See It's there's nothing fun about that for me. We love Coraline. I love the the soundtrack god the soundtrack

2:00It's so I listen to it to write sometimes. I believe it. Yeah, you know There's no words in it because it's supposed to make you feel like a little and it does Also mr. Babinski mr. Babinski And then who are the two ladies? Oh my god. I love them. Oh, what are their fucking names? Miss spank and miss forcible. There it is. Yeah, I like that. Yeah, they're wild. They're her eccentric retired actor Snapers. I love them. I love it Yeah, cute movie, but I don't put it on for decorating. Yeah decorating decorating. What do you guys put on to decor? Let us know have you guys decorated. Yeah, it's time. Everyone's like don't you temper my August? And I'm like shut up all I saw somebody be like all fucking December your Like She was like I will fucking Holly jolly yeah Don't come out and also I'm not doing shit to your August. Oh, you can have your shitty ass weather take it You can have your butt sweat in your She just fucking she just said you guys have swamp ass

3:02She can have your mosquitoes and your hornets and your hornets and your hornet The latest kids call hornets hornlets. It's so really funny. You can have all that stuff You can have your not being able to turn on this the oven to cook because it's too hot to I actually I like I don't know the last time I turned on my oven you can have your lack of crock pop meals because it's not even the vibe of that like you're you can absolutely enjoy all that You're probably like enjoy it. Enjoy the smell of sunscreen all day every day I had to put sunscreen on yesterday and I used a spray and I inhaled it and I think I lost years I probably did but that's it that like when people are like don't do that Russian I'm not rushing it for anyone else you're rushing it for me because I hate it and there's nothing for me And one thing about me is I'm gonna drink my pumpkin chai. Hell yeah, I'm doing it right now Put me to and I'm gonna put on my movies and I decorate that shit out of my goddamn living room Everybody's got a lot of everyone else live period and my coaches orange all year round anyway

4:04So I'm always in a place of this Halloween. It's true. It is all right. That's our PSA. The funny thing is is that like mostly like I would say 98.2% of people listening or like I feel exactly like why are you talking to me? I'm doing this. Whatever 100 minus that is That's the amount of people that are like no don't yuck my yum and August and I'm not you can absolutely yum August all you want yeah, I'm not obvious though. I've left I've left the building. I mean August is almost left the building. I love summer. June. I said fuck you guys I didn't leave it that early but this year I didn't love summer as much as I had in the past summer blue I think they share and I think it can go fucking so summer was a lot. It was not a good summer I think we had this exact conversation like pretty recently. Yeah, we did so sorry that you had to hear it again Sorry guys. All right, Gilford mark your time. Gilford. I don't know I said something crazy last time and I just decided to go with it. Gilford just came to me at that minic mark Gilford. Yeah They thought you were trying to tell me to say mark instead of Gilford and I was like why would I do that? Same mark

5:10All right, there's no good way to transition into this because this is a very serious very sad case and Uh, it's I would say unsolved but You'll see why it's like tough to say that hmm Justice justice doesn't seem to have been done here in my opinion Routro so we're gonna be talking about the Stanford Braw murders This is Stanford Connecticut, which is um, I only recently realized Stan ferd and not stan ferd honestly. I also learned that recently. So did you learn it on the train to New York? Yeah, me too. Yeah. Yeah, they called it out and I said what the fuck and then I saw the train station Oh my god. Oh, no Stanford So our story starts today with a woman named Rosalyn Poshta Unfortunately life had not been very easy for her at all By 1967 she was mostly supporting herself through sex work and she was also struggling with addiction In a time where there was not many options for treatment or help. Oh, man, which is really sad. Yeah

6:14Now Rosalyn's disappearance was reported to police in early august and Stanford Connecticut police investigated But they weren't really able to find her after hitting a dead end and the case was shelved pretty quickly Hmm very sad. Yeah So just 30 or so miles outside of New York City Stanford residents had become pretty accustomed to experiencing kind of like a spillover effect from their proximity to New York Obviously including the crime rate. Yeah, but because of that when sex workers from Stanford started going missing in the late 60s People kind of just assumed that maybe they drifted down to New York Rather than suspecting for even a minute that these women were victims of foul play. Yeah, because that's never happened No, never in a million years. We've never told a story like that. Nope There were times though when violence against the sex workers in and around Stanford was Undeniable and this period of time we're going to talk about it is truly undeniable But people it's it's really sad to see people's response to this case especially back when it was ongoing

7:15So on the evening of May 3rd 1968 Stanford patrolman David Hughes was doing his usual check of the wooded area around Merritt Parkway It was a very popular location for sex workers and their clients And he spotted what he thought was a mannequin laying in a wooded area a few yards from the road As we know it is nine out of 10 times not gonna be a mannequin. No It was only upon closer inspection that he realized it was a body not a mannequin And it ended up being the body of 22-year-old Donna Roberts As far as he could tell Donna very much appeared to be dead and her bra was wrapped tightly around her neck And she'd also been severely beaten in the face and the head The scene really only had few clues though as to how Donna ended up there Investigators found drag marks in the dirt that led back to the road Indicating though that she had likely been killed somewhere else and was just later dumped in that spot. Okay According to the autopsy her cause of death was strangulation and she'd been dead for several hours by the time her body was discovered by Hughes

8:19Which is actually kind of crazy when you think about yeah just hours just wow In addition to the injuries to her face and head though her ankle was broken But it did appear that her ankle was broken post mortem since there wasn't any swelling So it may have happened like during transportation or something like that. Okay Investigators spoke to her friends and relatives hoping that they might know who she was with before she died But everyone they spoke to was a bit reluctant to speak with the police for various reasons And captain Thomas O'Connor told the reporters no one in the area no area knows anything as of the present time We have learned nothing about the last person she was with Just not great. No, you know, you need a little something to go. Yeah Despite a thorough canvas of the area and interviews with dozens of visitors to the park Nobody came forward with any information about Donna's death damn In the case ended up going cold within a few weeks. Wow Yeah But then in early September another body was discovered by the side of Merit Parkway under remarkably similar circumstances

9:25On September 8th a driver on the parkway spotted what looked to be a pair of women's legs sticking out of the bushes about 200 feet from the road and so obviously they were like 911 emergency. Yeah When the officers arrived they discovered the body of a young black woman believed to be in her 20s lying in the bushes Her bra was also wrapped tightly around her neck According to the medical examiner dr. Coleman Kelly this victim's cause of death was Basically the exact same as Donna Roberts. It was strangulation Uh, her body was discovered 50 feet from where Donna Roberts had been found just Monterall year. Yeah, that close Now A search of the area really didn't turn up anything and the victim didn't have any identification on her So at that point her identity was a mystery After the news about the second body was published in the papers though Friends and family of missing people started contacting the state police hoping that maybe they would have answers in the case of their loved ones disappearance But when they were shown the body nobody recognized her

10:26Finally about 24 hours after the body was discovered though Somebody thought that they recognized the young woman But they only knew her by a nickname So they gave the contact information for somebody who maybe would know her real name That information led detectives to a man named Oscar con Who viewed the body and unfortunately had to identify the victim as his niece 21 year old Gloria con. Oh man. And she was actually from Mount Vernon, New York So it was interesting that she was found in Stanford. Yeah When it came to the scene where Gloria had been discovered again There really wasn't a lot of evidence discovered And since she appeared to have come up from up to Stanford from New York Like I said nobody knew her nobody really had any idea who she might have been with or where like what she was doing on the day She was killed A check with the Mount Vernon police revealed that she did have a history of arrests But given her history Investigators made the assumption that she traveled to Connecticut to make some money through sex work

11:28But that wasn't really much help in finding her killer at that point. Yeah So seven months passed and the brawmurtors Sadly kind of faded into the background replaced by other news stories and criminal cases But then on April 5th an anonymous phone call to the Stanford police revived the case for both the police and the press That morning the death sergeant received an anonymous call from a man who just said another body's up there Oh That's it. That's terrifying. Yep another body's up there Like by that's chilling right Oh, and obviously they were referring to the merit parkway. Yeah, he gave literally no additional information and then just hung up the phone I hate it. So an officer was dispatched to the area where Donna Roberts and Gloria Conne had been discovered the previous year And while searching a rocky area about 50 yards from the north side of the parkway The detective or the officer discovered a human skull Oh my god. Yeah a more thorough search later that week turned up additional bones and based on his cursory examination the medical

12:33Medical examiner doctor Saul Firestein Confirmed that the skull appeared to be that of the young woman Given the remains had been in that location and exposed to the elements for so long like what appeared to be months at that point If not years the doctor wasn't able to give much more information until after he could do a full autopsy damn So it took nearly a week but on April 11th investigators announced that the skeletal remains that I'm a discovered Were those of 31 year old Rosellen Pasta who was known to her friends a sissy rush She's like I thought that was such a sweet nickname that is one thing I should have said this at the top of the episode I'm sure it seems like I'm really not giving a lot of information about these women Unfortunately, there's not a lot available. I found what I could yeah But obviously that was the body of Rosellen who had gone missing in August 1967. Yeah There had been too much time between her death and the autopsy to make really any definitive statements about her cause of death But investigators did believe that she was actually the first victim in the brawmer. Oh wow

13:35In a statement to the press state police captain Lewis Marcazi noted that all three women had quote-unquote similar associates And possibly could have known each other He continued they will be checking the background and all known associations in an effort to determine the possible facts leading to her demise now Because it was the 60s and as we know sex workers and black women in these cases are often considered less dead Yep, it's really not clear how vigorously any of these murders were investigated at the time Damn and shockingly within just days this This most recent discovery which was the third discovery of a woman strangled by her own bra bully like presumably The brawmurders just disappeared from the papers again. That's incredible. It's like how does that like that is incredible How is that not front-page news and like How is everybody in the community not just like banging down the doors of officers trying to figure this out? No But that's insane. This was an area that was predominantly white and you know middle to upper class

14:37So I think people just weren't concerned because they didn't think anything was gonna happen to them. That's wild Which is so fucked up because it's like even if I don't think something is gonna happen to me I care about my fellow humans. Yeah, that's the thing I would like everybody in the community to feel safe. Yeah, you would think like why would you not want that? But more than two years would pass before the murders came up again and when they did it became Abundantly clear that somebody was stalking women and Stanford. Yeah Even though the concept of a serial killer had emerged 40 years before the brawmurder started started It was still not a widely understood concept by a lot of people It was fairly clear to investigators in Stanford that the three brawmurder victims had very likely been killed by the same person But they didn't really have any insight into that kind of psyche So they also it seemed like they didn't have any reason to presume the killer wouldn't just stop of his own volition Yeah, like back then people thought that was a possibility. They were like, you know But we've never we've never seen it before

15:38Yeah, exactly, but they had never researched this kind of stuff So it's like they had no idea that that kind of compulsion wasn't something that was just gonna stop exactly So in fact when no additional bodies turned up the year after they discovered Gloria Khan Investigators seemed to have a reason to believe that the crisis was over If they really believed that the killer disappeared or moved on though They were proven wrong in the summer of 1971 when the fourth victim was discovered 17-year-old gale Thompson never returned home on the evening of July 9th So she was reported missing to the Stanford police The next day her body was unfortunately discovered in a wooded area Off of Roxbury Road, which is just south of the Marit Parkway. So it's like right there. Yeah And it was not very far from where the other victims had been found years earlier According to the medical examiner gale had been dead for approximately 24 hours when she was discovered So they found her pretty quickly. Yeah, and on top sea obviously would be required to determine her cause of death, but

16:39The braw wrapped around her neck tightly strongly suggested that she had been strangled. Yeah, just like with the others To the members of the press who did cover the story the connection to the other murders was obvious But for some reason investigators weren't as eager to group everybody together now Yeah, Captain O'Connor told the reporters We're working on the theory that there is a possible connection But we're concentrating just on this one victim and if it leads to the others fine How are you not like I don't get that it's a young We're not discovered with a bra. Yeah tightly bound around her neck. That's Oh, okay, I don't know if it was the age because you know the ages have kind of varied here And she's the only minor victim that's been found like she's 17 like obviously that's incredibly young Yeah, and like you just found like a 12 year old exactly you're like, you know It's and the MO here is Is the exact same the exact same that that doesn't happen and I mean So is the victim profile aside from age? Yeah exactly

17:39The other thing that's interesting or it doesn't seem like they were saying no she's not connected to these victims But they were it looked like they were like looking for a way to say that she wasn't or like publicly not wanting to admit Yeah, that there could be a serial killer exactly when I guess I'm but there were also other aspects of gill's life that fit the profile Yeah, like the other victims I already mentioned that she was a young black woman She also lived in the same neighborhood where Rosellan Poshta and Donna Roberts lived I mean come on so yeah, and she was last seen a little after midnight talking to a man in a convertible So it's like hello that might have been something Now in the case of the previous victims a lot of many months passed before a new discovery was made This time though investigators barely had made any progress in their current situation when They received word of yet another victim discovered out by the parkway On August 22nd two men on their way to a football game pulled off the parkway to change drivers When they spotted a body at the edge of the path that led to a rest area

18:43That afternoon the victim was identified by her husband As 34 year olds Alma Henry She was not only a married woman. She was a married woman and mother of four children. Oh, Lord. Yeah So that was interesting too because that was a variation Up to this point Everybody's been you know Yeah, not married not necessarily involved in the community like with anybody and a sex worker Alma was not doing sex work at this time And it's unclear if she ever had been yeah, it doesn't I couldn't find anything to say she had so this is a little deviation Yeah, so Terrific given that her bra was wrapped tightly around her neck though and she'd been found in the same location as the others It seemed very likely that she was another bra murderer victim But this time something was different with the exception of Donna Roberts who had been beaten before being strangled The other victims had just been strangled it seemed and their bodies were left. Yeah Alma's body though showed evidence of sadistic behavior that hadn't been present in the others

19:47Her bra. Obviously like I said was wrapped around her neck She'd also been beaten in the face And there was surgical tape covering her mouth her nose And her hands had also been bound behind her back with surgical tape holy shit Yeah That's fucked up When it makes you wonder Because she wasn't involved in sex work. Was she taken in a different manner and like you had to be bound because it does make you wonder if the previous woman who had Been killed maybe they were like conducting business. Yeah, so it was easier for him Unfortunately to us of conducting business. Yeah to get them in a vulnerable Yeah, a vulnerable position Maybe Alma Thought back. Yeah, I mean keep that's why he bound her, you know Maybe and that's not to say that the other woman didn't fight back I'm just saying it might have been taken a little more by surprise by surprise in the in the circumstances Exactly, so I think it was very different circumstances here. Yeah

20:55Now while the implications of the evidence the location and the cause of death are obvious Investigators remain hesitant to make any definitive connections to the other cases still guys Come on, but again, I think it's what you said. I think it's them not wanting to admit it Yeah, yeah cap to no conner though told reporters it was possible that the cases were linked But he didn't want to jump tiny conclusions. No, of course not He said we also have to work on the theory that someone is using the previous four murders as an excuse to tie them in with this latest murder Which I do understand that comment here just because The way that her body was discovered pretty different like but it also mean that an Accomplication can happen, you know, yeah, they copycat right now the Connecticut state police were more forthcoming with information and a theory though Lieutenant Walder Foley said it is apparently all the work of the same person even to the same dumping of bodies and what it is Areas along the parkway. Yeah, so that's the other thing different departments in this area. We're having a like butting heads

21:58They're not having the same public opinion. Yep. Now The scene where almos body was discovered was nearly identical to the scene of the previous bodies There were tire tracks also Leading from the road to the spot where the body was left Indicating that she'd been killed somewhere else and left in the killer's preferred dump site just like the other victims Yeah And also like the other victims various pieces of her clothing were strewn around her body Which was another Kind of like calling card. I guess you could take this killer Aside from that though, there wasn't much left behind and despite the lack of evidence though The state police said they were hopeful that they would make a quick arrest. Okay, because also They're facing a lot of pressure now. Yeah, I would say so Speaking with confidence Foley told reporters It's become increasingly obvious with the finding of this fifth body that we have a pathological killer loose in the area In response, he agreed or he vowed to work closely with Stanford detectives to hunt the killer He said this man obviously is known to hid his victims. There has to be some answers in the Stanford area

22:59No, I don't know what made him say that the victims knew the killer. Yeah, there's not really a lot of I was gonna say I wouldn't assume that personally I think he likely meant that some of these victims had gotten into the killer's vehicle willingly Not that they had like literally been each other prior to the night Almost all of the victims were known to have been arrested on charges related to sex work in the past So it is plausible that they made some kind of arrangement with the killer before he turned on them Yeah, all aside from Alma. Yeah, it's also possible that his statement was more of an indirect call for help to the black community in Stanford He and other investigators For some reason thought held some kind of knowledge that would be crucial to solving this case Huh, it's like it's not up to the black community to do your detective work for you though. Yeah, why? What yeah, I don't get that I don't understand that. Well, and as far as the local black community was concerned from the moment that Donna Roberts body had been found in

24:011968 Stanford police and Connecticut state police had not lived up to their obligation to find this killer This has been going on for years at this point. Yeah Writing collectively as the quote concerned citizens of black Stanford the group address Stanford police chief Joseph Kinsella With what they described as their extreme indignation that investigators have been quote less than enthusiastic and their efforts to find the killer They wrote we black sentence finds it inconceivable that no solution has been found to any of the five cases involving black young women During the past three and a half years it pains us deeply to feel that had the victims been white a much more vigorous search for the murder Murderers would have been launched and by now at least one of these crimes might be solved. Yeah, which like I would feel the exact same way Absolutely So in the days that followed the public pressure and conflicting statements from law enforcement Unfortunately only grew Despite his previous press statements to the press captain Joseph Chicharsky told reporters We're not even close to knowing whether it was one person

25:04It's like really? I love that they're like we're not even close because I was a wee book to other cases from this time And there is some incredible detective work that has gone on in similar cases. Yeah, it's like why? It that's the thing like what the fun just to say like yeah, we're not even close What and that's your story Don't want to pretend that you're like, you know like you Part of the whole thing is yeah, you might not be even close But you're supposed to get that you are working on it and that you will get close to the task force Where's any kind of hope that you're trying to give the community here? Right and they just don't they don't care It's what it comes off us because you have to think of the community. Yeah It seems they don't give a shit about this community. Yeah, and when asked about the pressure from the black citizens group He had difficulty hiding his frustration when answering the question Yeah, and said if we had something to go on we wouldn't have tolerated these killing since 1968 Just very like Hey, if I had something I'd figure it out, but I don't so deal with it. Wow. Yeah, okay

26:06Now ask for the majority of white residents of Stanford the killings like I said in the beginning of this barely registered as something to be alarmed about that's Wow, I'm like a mother of four was kind of just gonna say like so these are a 17 year old like these are women that like a 21 year old So 32 year old how well it's like These are like young went not that like older, you know victims wouldn't matter as much as this like These are like real people that doesn't bother you in the prime of their life Being found in horrific ways. Yeah, like it's not it's also like The way they're being found there's like clear evidence of like some kind of torturous And like sadistic and to be left with the brawl around their neck like that's That's them like that's them playing in your face absolutely And it's like and you're just letting them and not only that with the most recent discovery It's like he's obviously escalating so you know, it's rare to to switch your victim profile. Yeah, it happens

27:07Absolutely, it does like hello, which I know like we're not at the point when this was happening Like people do not so much was known. I mean, they're calling them still pathological killers. Yeah, instead of serial killers So it's like I understand that like we had not caught up yet to understanding that these kind of people exist Or how they work so I I will take it a little bit with that but it's it's the It's like the the non-shelonts That's the thing or just the way it's being conveying of like yeah, we're not even close like that's not I don't give a shit that we don't know about serial killers yet. Yeah, you just shouldn't be conveying that kind of like ineptitude right of all in Complete casual just like you're kind of apathetic. It's not like you're coming off apathetic Yaka you think that's coming off as apathetic. Oh Lord one resident interviewed said if I if it were a Boston strangler Everybody would scared but don't you see it's not that type of killing Yes, it is um it sounds Very like the only difference is that he's not breaking and entering

28:09What the fuck what and then sounded gross and sorry a Kenham whose house was near the parkway echoed the ambivalence and distance that most people found around the murder she said We don't like being used as a dumping ground. I just hope the next body doesn't turn up on my stone fencer in the pool It would scare the living daylight. It's out of the children Are you Fucking kidding me with that. I hope the next body is not found on my property First of all there's not been any body found on anybody's property. It's been on Public highways. I also I love the phrase the next body. Yeah, like she doesn't give a shit Not the next victim or the next woman kill who's going to be murdered and brutally tossed somewhere like a bag of trash Just a body just I hope the next body because she's also like I'm counting on another one Yeah, obviously gonna happen because none of us are doing anything to stop it So it stays away for me. I hope it stays I don't like being used as a dumping ground. Oh excuse me I'm sure the women don't like being murdered either. Yeah, so I'm sure their families don't like losing them

29:14What do you imagine I'm also like wow First name last name in that interview that's the thing you said that tentos down with your whole chest, but that's gnarly You could back then and it yeah people didn't batten I lash like other white people didn't Somebody shitty those are the kind of people that need to be fucking put in their place. Oh I'm just do somebody's gotta say it to a 100% like hey you can't be this much of an asshole. I love Can't like you really shouldn't quietly you shouldn't quietly, but no one wants to hear you be this big But I was supposed to just shut up now for his part Stanford mayor Julius Wollensky, which I was like wow You had no other choice than to then to be a mayor. Yeah, you had to go into politics Yes, that is Julius Wollensky. Yeah, you have to he stood behind the team investigating the case And he told reporters that he was convinced investigators were making a strong effort to find the killers and that These victims were to quote not being disregarded because of their race He said my own checks have convinced me that our police are extending every effort to catch up with the crazy perpetrators of these dastardly crimes

30:17Wow, he also he really said it He did he said it and then he also told the press that he himself had taken a special interest in the case Particularly the two most recent victims and he would be checking in regularly with the investigation to monitor the progress Okay, at least he's conveying like I care yeah give a shit like here's the thing. I've not looked into this man I don't know what he's all about shit all about him aside from this don't come at me with that like I don't know I'm just saying in this one instance He sounds like he's conveying a more proper message to the community than the investigators absolutely Now it seems that the pressure from the black community and the mayor's quote-unquote special interest in the case were effective Well, that's good by the end of the year investigators had finally started pursuing the case with an enthusiasm that definitely hadn't been seen in the beginning Doesn't sound like it as December came to an end detectives had questioned nearly a thousand people in connection with the five victims And both the Stanford police and the state police had increased the number of officers that were assigned to it Which is like hello? Why would you not?

31:17You know, you have five bodies here. Yeah, you don't Like you need a task for source of a force of similar size working. Yes There were several thorough searches of the area around the parkway during which countless fingerprints were discovered and processed actually by the FBI field office And in the cases where they could be identified the owners of those prints were questioned that length But remember this is also a public parkway. Yeah, so there's millions of fingerprints basically. Yeah In his end of the year address Merwell Lensky reiterated his previous promise to the residents of Stanford and said We will not rest until the perpetrator or perpetrators of these horrible deeds are apprehended and convicted Now by the dawn of the New Year governor Thomas Meskill had chimed in on the case and dedicated a three thousand dollar reward to anybody who could provide information that led to an arrest That would be like a just around 25k today And he also urged anybody with information to call the 24-7 tip line that had been obviously set up for the purpose of collecting leads Mm-hmm, but as is often the case the offer of a reward generated a large volume of calls

32:21But none really proved to be useful Now to the public surprise though in mid-March of 1972 just two weeks after that reward was offered Investigators announced that an arrest had been made in the Brawmerters Huh the suspected killer was 42-year-old Benjamin Franklin Miller It quote white mailman and self-styled minister who detectives believe had met the victims while quote And this is a quote preaching in the black churches and ghetto street uh street corners of Stanford and Norwalk Hopefully they would say that differently this day. Yeah, like in the stage at the time of his arrest Miller was actually a patient at a psychiatric hospital in new town, Connecticut Uh, he'd been been receiving inpatient treatment for schizophrenia for over a month Uh, and because his physician had had him committed Now according to the hospital spokesperson Miller had previously been suspected of the murders But then after several interviews with detectives he'd been ruled out at one point Huh, however just weeks after being ruled out He allegedly repeatedly asked hotel staff to connect him to the police because he wanted to speak to them about the murders

33:28According to the investigators the arrest was made possibly partially because of the help they received from the Stanford advocate police reporter Nick Seminoff who had provided critical information that he learned in his own investigation Despite statements from investigators about how Miller had wanted to confess When he arrived in court for his arrangement He appeared to be confused about what was happening So he obviously he's mentally ill so yeah kind of like ebb and flow Yeah, into these different states, but this was odd yeah for sure and the arrest came as a shock to those who had any familiarity with Mr. Miller His struggle with mental illness had occasionally led to some what you could call strange behavior and delusional thinking But he'd never been violent in the past that anybody knew of and he never expressed any violent intent According to one of the church members who met him on several occasions Miller appeared to be a very nice guy You could talk to him and think and he was always easy with his exchanges He was very friendly especially to young people And those who worked with him at the post office had similar recollections

34:30Telling reporters that he was a loner and considered himself another Billy Graham, but he wasn't aggressive Billy Graham was like a I think he was like on TV and he was like a pastor wasn't he? Yeah like a televangelist Yeah So obviously like this happens all the time like some people that encountered Ted Bundy were like oh shit He's the nicest guy ever like that's crazy So That could go one of two ways of course it could yeah, but Upon further investigation it turned out Miller status as a minister was entirely informal and he was self-ordained Reverend J.P. Ball told reporters He would just stand out on the street corner and preached anybody who would listen People recognized him as a minister out of sympathy. They didn't want to hurt him Now given his documented mental illness and the fact that he'd been recently held in a psychiatric unit for his own safety Benjamin Miller was returned to the hospital for a more extensive evaluation after he was arrested and went through the Arraignment In a statement to the press the superintendent of the hospital dr. Robert Miller said mild-mannered is an excellent description of Benjamin Miller

35:32Adding that he'd been very cooperative since he'd gone back to the hospital Okay, now a few days later after his latest evaluation He was deemed competent to appear before a grand jury which is interesting to me Yeah, because he's on a because wait a minute He's on a psychiatric ward. Yeah, like I don't isn't that and for his own safety That doesn't I don't know how all these legal proceedings work But I just think that's kind of that's strange in my opinion. Yeah, that is strange um And also he was deemed competent after a doctor described what was minimal but not substantial improvement since he'd been admitted to the hospital in February So that was also interesting. So that is yeah, right Now on March 15th Benjamin Miller was indicted for the five braw murders and he pleaded not guilty to the charges The grand jury hearing was closed to the press and to the public So it's unclear what evidence was presented to the jury that connected him to the murders And like still is yeah In fact despite having been arrested a week earlier

36:33Investigators have been pretty tight lipped about the investigation And what information and what information specifically pointed them to Benjamin Miller in the first place Yeah, I'm interested. Yeah Now it's obviously not all that uncommon for investigators to withhold details and evidence before our case goes to trial We've said that before yeah for sure But in the case of Benjamin Miller's arrest it seems that nobody could or would explain What evidence they had against him and what led to that arrest For three years the black community had watched investigators pretty begrudgingly And as far as they were concerned only half-heartedly investigate this case. Yeah only to come up empty for years And then out of nowhere it seemed this suspect had come to light And the case seemed to be racing along with unprecedented speed The concern it does feel very like wow. Yeah, it's quick So quick. Yeah The concerned citizens of black Stanford were pleased with the attention obviously They said but they said they were still skeptical of the investigation and now the arrest Folks first and told reporters until police are grand jury unveiled more facts of on the grizzly murders

37:37They will not accept the official word that Benjamin Franklin Miller is responsible for any or all of these deaths So they were not convinced. Yeah Now while investigators proudly held up the arrest as the result of their years long investigation Police in Stanford quietly made an arrest that Surely would have been of interest to those working the braw murders In the early morning hours of July 29th 1972 Police arrested a 38 year old man named Robert Lupinacci and charged him with attempting to strangle a 17 year old on den road Not far from where gale Thompson's body was discovered just one year earlier. Oh The young woman was black and was working at the time as a sex worker So alarm bill should have been ringing for everybody. They sure should news literally caught strangling her yep in The same area where other bodies had been found and she fit the victim profile They don't seem to love a pattern No, we don't have a lot of pattern recognition going on here. They really should have watched

38:38What was that show that your kid watched like umi goomi? Oh my god umi zoomi umi zoomi yeah pattern power Like they need to check it out get some pattern power. Hello because I'm seeing a lot of pattern recognition that is Completely going yeah going to the wayside here and according to the police He had been found in the middle of attempting to strangle this girl in the back of his car by a state trooper just conducting a search of the area So he was quite literally caught red handed yeah To the press the similarities between the braw murders and the circumstances of this arrest were pretty fucking obvious Yeah, but the Stanford police for some reason were very hesitant to make any connection between the two what? In a statement to the press a detective John Concentine told reporters I cannot say that this will that this case will lead to a reopening of the den road murder situation However, the investigation of this new situation will be intense and we will be giving the state police every cooperation in it I'm sorry What now? Lupinachi maintained that he had nothing to do with the braw murders and as far as anyone can tell

39:44He was never seriously considered as a suspect Despite literally being found caught red handed in the same area that five other people had been murdered under similar If not exact circumstances and literally were the like these were the exact victim profile of the woman he was found strangling Hello, I don't see what you're getting up Hello, I don't see it. No, I don't see it You Even worse on February 10th 1973 he pleaded guilty to the charge of first degree assault and was sentenced to three to eight years in prison Of which I'm pretty sure I found that he only served three Awesome for attempting that's attempted murder. Yeah, that's not first degree assaults. He just got caught

40:44He would finish that if he didn't get caught precisely. I never understand that precisely. I'm sorry In the meantime though the district attorney continued for some god for sake and reason to focus their attention on Benjamin Miller And then at a date for a bench trial was set for late January 1973 On January 30th a three-judge panel convened at the Superior Court where they heard testimony from two psychiatrists who described the extent of Benjamin Miller symptoms Although Miller had confessed to paying for sex on at least one occasion He allegedly told the doctors at the hospital that he had a quote divine mission to convert young black women whom he considered to be sinners and to punish them if they remained sinful Wow, I will say many of his statements were called into question later on Their statement was followed by reading a reading of the confession that Miller allegedly gave to police shortly after his arrest In it Miller confessed to having met these women through street corner preaching

41:44Enclaimed that he did pay for sex with the and had sex with the victims before killing them Uh, he said after he engaged in sex with Donna Roberts She asked for money and tried to blackmail him He told police she threatened to expose me in blackmail me She indicated that some fellow she knew would work me over and probably take my life Hmm, so obviously the evidence presented at the trial definitely implicated him in the murders But the panel of judges agreed that the psychiatric history and acute symptoms met for the criteria for insanity And Miller was acquitted As a result, he was sent back to the hospital for further evaluation Before the panel was willing to determine how long he should be held for psychiatric psychiatric treatment On March 30th his psychiatric evaluation was completed And his doctors determined that quote Miller continues to be a danger to himself and others And requires further hospitalization and is not likely to show improvement in the foreseeable future So as a result of those findings the panel sentenced him to be confined at the state psychiatric hospital for 25 years

42:47Okay, yeah So he was acquitted based off in sanity, but he still had to serve uh Yeah, it's a very similar to like um, isn't that what happened with Edgene? Oh, yeah, like sub like similar kind of thing So the sentence in the Miller case would seem to have brought the story of the Brahmerters to an end you would think But in the summer of 1981 while he was Ben Miller was incarcerated at the state hospital A trio of murders occurred in Stanford and the bodies were found not far from where the original Brahmertems Brahmertor victims were discovered more than a decade earlier. Oh man on August 20th 1981 a driver on Den Road discovered the body of 40-year-old Carol Gates who appeared who disappeared Sorry two weeks earlier The body was too decomposed to determine a cause of death, but it did seem likely that she'd been strangled Her murder was preceded by the murders of 19-year-old Mary Aaron and 36-year-old Carrie Mock both strangled and left on the side of the parkway When asked for comments state lieutenant William Kirkby said it would be good

43:50Investigative procedure to look at the similarities of all three murders, but beyond his comment It doesn't seem like these recent murders were considered in the context of the Brahmerters in any way I like the like yeah, it would be good investigative procedure to do that. Yeah I'm not saying we will nice saying it would be pretty sick of us a nice blanket statement Just to appease you because you know what yeah What is true would be you gonna do it that you gonna you gonna go ahead and do that yeah act on that No, you want to be good cool because you could do that Now surprisingly it wasn't the discovery of three more victims found under incredibly similar circumstances That led to met Benjamin Miller's appeal for a new trial But the confession that landed him in the hospital in the first place Interesting in December 1982 Miller and his lawyer his new lawyer John Williams Appeared in court to petition for a new trial on the grounds that the state's key evidence the confession was tainted Williams accused Miller's previous court appointed lawyer Herbert Bundock of failing to defend his client to the best of his ability

44:57When he didn't attempt to have the confession suppressed Herbert he's always doing that and fucked up. Yeah on the stand Williams asked Bordock. Did you not feel he Did you not feel the fact he was delirious and the very month he confessed might be helpful in keeping these confessions out of evidence That's a valid point Pretty fucking that's a valid point. They're like They literally said and like this is a like a quote or like a um Diagnosis they called they said he was delusional. Yeah, and like harmful to himself and others But specifically delusional, but then you're gonna take a confession for full face value You could be saying anything what sense does that mean? No, it doesn't make any sense But in response the previous lawyer Bordock simply said the insanity defense was the best way out for mr. Miller Okay, that might be the case, but like But what if why didn't you even try and like why wouldn't you even try to get that thrown out? I think you could have to the worst that what have happened was they say no Yeah, and then you just give it a shot with your insanity defense now

45:58It wasn't just the questionable nature of Miller's confession to police that Williams's new lawyer believed to tainted the case He also pointed to the arrest of Robert Lupinacci for a similar crime. Yeah, which Miller's previous lawyer and Connecticut law enforcement agencies failed to investigate in the context of the brawmurtors at all Wow, Birdock responded by telling Williams that the arrest was quote not relevant to our case And said they didn't investigate because quote that happens every day on my ripark way Wow, it doesn't wow It doesn't it doesn't and also the fact that a series of murders and attempted strangulations were continuing to happen Might be a really fucking valid argument for the fact that your client is innocent Well, that's the other thing and it's like that happens every day there and it's like damn you should do a better job Yeah, I mean on the on the police for sure the police should be doing a better job out there And also fuck that Lupinacci's case wasn't relevant to their arrest wasn't relevant to their case. It's so relevant It's the most relevant that anything has ever been to you case

47:00It's the exact same thing playing out That's wild like how do you discover like thankfully he was found in the act of doing that Yeah, he not been would you have found another young black woman On the side of Merritt Parkway and also what if you what would you have done then right would you have said that's not relevant to the case? Exactly how the other ones were discovered What would you have done would that have been like that's the thing is she had that maker if she had been dead with that Yeah, if you if you hadn't caught him before he finished the act Would would that be relevant what sense does this makes you would have murdered her like he wasn't strangling her for any of the reason He was going to murder her 100% he just happened to come across him. Yep. That's a wild like hello That's infuriating so long nearly everybody involved in the investigation Studed by their conviction that they arrested the right man and felt it was unlikely that Benjamin Miller would get a new trial Williams and his client were still in an advantage position If he didn't get a new trial He would just continue to be locked up in the state hospital and he did need to receive treatment anyways

48:01But if a new trial was granted double jeopardy laws prevented him from being found guilty of a crime He'd already been tried for so that meant if they went to trial the only options for an outcome We're a second verdict of not guilty by reason of insanity or a straight-up acquittal. Oh wow So in October of 1983 I superior court I was just at a superior court church. I don't know. Yeah superior court judge Denied Williams petition for a new trial when the decision was made public John Williams wasted no time in giving a comment to the press saying that the judge showed a lack of courage when he upheld the previous verdict Now it would take another almost five years for Benjamin Miller's appeal to receive a review But finally it may have 1988 a three-judge panel in a New York circuit court rendered their verdict The Fairfield County prosecutor had in fact violated Benjamin Miller's rights in 1973 When they withheld evidence about another suspect in the case referring to Lupinatchee As a result they were ordered to either retry Miller for the original

49:02murders or release him from custody. Oh damn John Williams told reporters I'm glad at long last some justice has been done in this case This certain this was certainly one of the most outrageous miscarriages of justice in the state of Connecticut And I would have to agree Now in the year that followed the state weighed their options with regard to retrying Miller while John John Williams continued to declare his clients innocence and the press By that time most of the supposed evidence investigators had gathered Including the confession had come under scrutiny. Yeah, and that completely weakened their chances in court And outside of that it doesn't really seem like they had much evidence That's the thing Williams told the press in a couple of cases what Miller said in the confession doesn't square with the autopsies Damn, I think all they're doing is buying some time until they can work out a civil commitment Wow, yeah And I always believe if you really If you really think that person is guilty and you think you have you're gonna go for it You're gonna go for it. That's what I think if there's that that's just my opinion because if you have a strong enough case

50:03You should be able to why would be able to and it's happened. Yeah for his part Benjamin Miller insisted that he would not object to the continued commitment to the psychiatric hospital He only wanted the verdict really a reverse to clear his name because he was not guilty of this He said because he's like I know that he's not like you know sane. He's not Self-recognizing. Yeah, I know I'm not a quote-unquote sane person But I'm not a killer. Yeah, like that's the only thing I want taken off. Yeah, like being mentally ill doesn't make you a serial killer Yeah, so ultimately the question of a new trial became moot in may of 1989 a federal judge ruled that double-geppity laws Prevented the state from retrying Benjamin Miller and as a result he was released from the state hospital as a free man. Oh Yeah I don't know about that. No, that's that's not what I wanted the sad thing is he didn't know about that either That's a thing he didn't want to When the judge announced his ruling the reality of the situation seemed to overwhelm Benjamin Miller who by then had spent almost 20 years in a psychiatric hospital

51:06At that point he also really had no place to go and he wasn't necessarily able to take care of himself on his own Oh, no luckily He eventually he was taken in at a shelter for mentally ill on housed individuals And following his a his release the assistant states attorney announced that they would not be appealing the ruling So the case against Miller was officially closed wow he later said that He was coerced in his confession that was I mean yeah, and he was like brought to different places and fed information Wow, yeah, well that's what he alleges It didn't even according to them. It didn't even square with the autopsy and so that's the other thing Situation it's in some parts and it didn't and it didn't seek and again It was the only evidence they seemed to have. Yeah, that was the confession now the case against him Like we just said rested heavily on a confession that he gave while he was severely symptomatic Paranoid and delusional yeah, and he claimed at another point that he didn't even remember giving that confession

52:06And at the time he didn't understand what he was being prosecuted for him Otherwise the best evidence that the prosecution had that connected him to the murders were A few vague statements he made to psychiatrists about sinners and salvation while delusional That's unbelievable. It is. I can't believe that it even went to trial. Yeah On the other hand they arrested another man who was in the middle of attempting to murder a woman by the same means as five other victims had previously been killed In the same location But that information and the details of the crime were never passed on to Miller's court appointed attorney at the time Wow, and as a result Benjamin Miller lost 16 years of his life Personally look into this case on your own and you know take take what I've told you as you will But I personally do not believe this man did it. Yeah, I don't from what I've been told I don't Now later when he finally agreed to speak about the case Benjamin Miller told reporters the confession he made to police like I just told you occurred under duress under threat in under threat of physical punishment

53:09At the time he said he was taking a medication that made him semi-arachinal that was a quote And he said he quote would have cooperated and done anything to get the detectives off his back That's really sad. He was very much targeted. That's what happened in the West Memphis 3 case with Jesse Muskelli. Yep 100% So he was from in my opinion He was very much led through that confession What he listening and watching that entire process. Yeah, unbelievable. It's sick and it really is it's it's sad. Yeah Because it's all it's also like just put that amount of work into finding the actual fucking person because you are You must know your coercing this person. Yeah, like it can't feel good. No justice. No, it's fake Now for the rest of his life Benjamin Miller maintained that while he might have been familiar with one or two of the victims throughout his street preaching He had nothing to do with their murders and he never intended to harm anyone and he never did That I met that's another never did that's another clue

54:10Now in the wake of his release the state in those directly involved with the case Continued to insist though that they caught the right man and they had done everything in their power to see that justice was done In defense of the whole investigation Detective George Meyer who was the lead detective on the case pointed to all the evidence they had Including the fact that Miller had information only the killer would have known or the police Yeah, and that he had taken detectives to a spot where the murders occurred He said then took us to places we didn't even know about Okay, okay, however when he was asked about that by reporters Miller insisted it was the detectives who gave him information and they took him to locations Damn John Williams his lawyer put it bluntly and pointed to the investigators botched pursuit of Lupin Hatchi saying that's the big red spot here It is honestly and there's a lot more to that babe that I'll get into in a second. Oh, man His lawyer said Miller was a handscape goat admitting they were wrong about Miller would have embarrassed too many officials Hmm, but as far as the state of Connecticut and the Stanford police were concerned the bra murders was officially closed Justice had been served

55:12Even if it had been subverted by the courts in the end of everything wow But if what Miller and his lawyer said were true then who really was responsible for the murders of Rosalind posda Donna Roberts Gloria con gale Thompson Alma Henry all of those women and then the three subsequent women who were found later yeah Unfortunately the main two names associated with the case have now died Benjamin Miller passed away in 2010 while still maintaining his innocence and never Being arrested for anything like this ever again. Wow. He just continued to live in that shelter. Yeah Robert Lutge Lupin Hatchi also died in 2013 It is worth noting that his own son spoke with author Vito Kaluci a former Connecticut narcotics officer This is Lupin Hatchi son yep his own son. He doesn't like to be referred to like he doesn't like the his He doesn't like it when Robert is called his father, but he is his son. Okay, and that tells you pretty much what we were about to get into So Jeff spoke with author Vito Kaluci who's a former

56:13Connecticut narcotics officer who wrote a book rogue town about corruption in Connecticut Oh, like within the police departments and I you Jeff helped provide information for Kaluci saying that he not only believes Robert Lupin Hatchi was responsible for the bra murders But the other three subsequent murders as well. Wow Jeff reported and this is Jeff's reporting that growing up Robert was a cruel father He was abusive to his wife. He was abusive to family pets animals in general He was also said to be Outwardly racist but allegedly known in the area as somebody who did patronize black-sex workers That kink that will go hand in hand. Yep Witnesses came forward saying his car was not only spotted near where all of the bodies have been discovered But also at a hotel where Gloria Khan had been staying Hotel employees confirmed seeing him there stop he not only worked at the hotel where gale Thompson sometimes stayed But drove a car similar to the one that she was last seen him

57:14How was none of this taken into consider this is incredible. Oh honey. Just my last statement here Finally, according to Angela Corella from the Stanford advocate that's in the local newspaper at the time of his arrest And this is a quote in the trunk of Lupin Hatchi's car police found hairs from a black person and a deck of pornographic playing cards with a missing queen of hearts Such a card had been found beside the body of one of the victims a year earlier Are you Bocking kidding me No That is the most embarrassing investigation I have ever heard in my life. They should be a shame Yeah It's very interesting. I very much suggest reading um rogue town. There's a whole chapter where Jeff's reportings go into what Kuluchi wrote and it is

58:16Some compelling shit. I didn't even get into everything. I just I really gave you like the big things The last time that Jeff saw Robert He it was at a restaurant and he believed that he was sitting with Carol Gates who was later discovered on Dunrode murdered Wow in similar circumstances wow yeah Wow yeah That's Unbelievably in the fact that they're just okay with the like for for the police in that area It's solved yeah, but it's not because your only suspect was acquitted and doesn't anyone have the feeling of like I'd love to look into this further. I don't know actually open this back up the sad thing is I don't know if there's any evidence at this point because Who knows there was like tire trip tri remarks and yeah playing cards and clothing and fingerprints and all But it's like Where did those go now? I don't can we read as like where is all that but for Jeff to be convinced that Robert

59:21It's next level yeah like come on and then Even if we didn't have Jeff's all of the information that came from Jeff We also have the fact that Robert was literally caught right handed yeah in the same area strangling a young black sex worker That's what I mean that will never Makes sense to me that that was just look and they were like yeah, I don't understand what mm-hmm Like what are you talking like what does one thing really have to do with the other this just this reminded me of the um the George Hodel Oh, yeah absolutely like the black doll yesterday. Yeah, yeah when when people who know them or people who are Unfortunately in their family. Yep start pointing the finger and saying actually it's so compelling I lived with them like I know what kind of person they are and then when you have to let up with like straight up Information yeah the playing card the hair. Yeah, and then he would call and like he would call his like people that he knew on the police force Allegedly and ask them questions about the case Yeah, there's a definitely I suggest reading rogue town at least yeah, I just read the chapters that Jeff contributed to because that was the

1:00:25Part that involved the brawmurtors case. I it seems very interesting That's insane. Yeah, so wow unfortunately that is the case of the Stanford Brawmurtors and I mean I'm sitting here and I'm like it remains unsolved but I guess You know that kind of what I meant in the beginning officially it remains unsolved officially. Yeah So with all that being said we hope you keep listening and we hope you keep it weird We're not so weird that evidence is literally punching you directly in the face and you're like What and you said no, just move on. No, thank you. Okay You

1:01:36You You