0:00Hey, weirdos, I'm Alina. I'm Ash. And this is morbid. Let's do this. Let's do this. We're in part two, so I feel like we should just get right into it. Yeah. Like I said, part two is going to be a little bit shorter, but there was like a lot of pre-story to go through in part one. But we're going to get into some more shocking, or you know, not even more shocking details, but talk about those a little more in depth. And then obviously the trial. Yeah, get into what the hell happened to your... Yeah, which I don't even really know. So, until but he knows. No, truly the law does. But Alfred Pleaser so confusing to me, because the law knows, but they don't know kind of... I think the most infamous one is the West Memphis 3. Yeah. I put a little note at the bottom in case anybody's like confused, so that we could talk about

1:04it a little bit. Because that's one that I fully believe is there in a sin. Yes, just me. 100%. We've gone over that. You know that. If you know our stance. But with this one, I don't know. Yeah, I could go either way on this one. So here's the thing. When we last left off, there were, you know, like I said, shocking details emerging in the case, one of which was hard to swallow for those who even previously had every confidence in Michaels in a sense. Over a decade earlier while living in Germany, Michaels' friend Elizabeth Ratliffe was found dead at the bottom of a staircase in her home. Yeah. And Michael was the last person to see her alive. Unfortunate. And also now was the guardian of her two children. Yes. So once this came to light and, you know, came more out in the public, not only were friends and family members who didn't know that fact shaken up, but the district attorney's office also thought it was pretty suspicious that two women had died under very similar circumstances while in the presence of Michael Peterson. Yeah. Or at least strange around the time they were in the presence of him.

2:06So that October, Durham District Attorney Jim Harden petitioned a judge in Texas for an order to exhumal Elizabeth Ratliffe's body. Damn. And he said it was in an effort to find out whether there are other similarities in the deaths. Now, it wasn't just the court of law and the court of public opinion that were influenced by these new details about Michael Peterson's life after so many shocking revelations about this man that they thought they all knew very well. Unfortunately, the cracks in the Peterson's family bond were also beginning to show and form after standing by her stepfather for nearly a year. The lingering questions about extra marital affairs, autopsy reports, and now another woman's death became too much for Caitlin at water to ignore. In late October, Caitlin filed actually a wrongful death lawsuit against Michael in civil court alleging that he did intentionally maliciously, willfully and wantently assault Kathleen Peterson thereby causing her death. Damn. Yeah. She declined to speak to the press about the case at the time, but Michael didn't hesitate

3:08to provide a response. He said, I'm really, really saddened that the loving family that Kathleen worked so hard on for 13 years has been ripped apart. The police have gotten to Caitlin and gave her their side. I'm sorry for Margaret Martha Clayton and Todd because not only have they lost a mother, now they've lost their sister as well. It is a family disaster. Oh, damn. Which is really fucking sad. Yeah, and it's like, you can't blame anybody for looking at the pieces of the puzzle and coming to a conclusion. No. That's what you do. You know what I mean? I can't understand all the sides of this. I can understand the people that are still standing by him and I can understand how she would decide she wasn't going to anymore. Yeah. I can understand all of that. All of this. And you also have to understand that Kathleen may have played a stepmother role in Clayton and Todd and Margaret and Martha's lives, but she was Caitlin's mother. Yeah. And she is Caitlin's mother. That's the thing.

4:08So that is a different level. Yeah. So Michael did his best to continue framing himself as an unfair victim. But if he was hoping to gain more support from the public, his behavior the following month did not do much to win him any new supporters. And mid November, just a few weeks after Caitlin's $10,000 civil suit against Michael was made public, the press started reporting an even larger intra family fight this time over Kathleen's life insurance policy. Oh, that's one thing. Please get Yaka. You're also just handing them a motive that they didn't previously have on a silver platter. Sure. So despite having been indicted for her murder, Michael argued that he should be entitled to the $1.4 million payout, which because of his status would otherwise go to her daughter and her ex-husband, Fred Atwater. The thing was Kathleen had made Fred and Caitlin the beneficiaries of the policy and she hadn't changed the policy prior to her death. But Michael was arguing that, quote, Kathleen made her feelings very clear when she divorced

5:12Fred and fearing that she wanted nothing more to do with Fred. So he said that he should be entitled to the money. Oof. That it gets Yaka when you do that. It sure does. And maybe to some that might have seemed like a trivial matter, but for the prosecution, like I just said, it was one more potential motive for Kathleen's murder. Oh, yeah. And the time of her death, Michael, like I said, was in negotiations to sell the film rights to his last novel or his latest novel. But that deal was only bringing in $600,000. And obviously I'm only saying only because Kathleen's job was potentially at risk at this time. And Michael had no regular income. So a $1.4 million payout looked like a pretty decent motive. Yeah. Would that $600,000 apply? Of course. Now, throughout the investigation, Margaret and Martha had stood by Michael and completely believed his innocence. So when the district attorney requested to have their mother's remains exhumed for a second autopsy, they were vocally resistant.

6:13Margaret told a reporter in February 2003, my first cut reaction was to say no. There are no words to explain how I feel, but we knew that dad had nothing to hide. But after giving it some thought, the two sisters decided to give their approval for the examination, reasoning that if nothing else, it would just put to rest rumors about their mother's murder at the hands of who the man they now considered their father. But unfortunately, what they ended up with was the exact opposite of what they'd intended. In midie April 2003, Elizabeth Ratless remains were exhumed from her grave in Texas and then shipped to the state medical examiner's office in Durham, where a second autopsy was performed to determine cause of death. And this just gets so. I can't imagine your family member being buried and exhumed and re-buried and re-autopsied and that just opens up a whole new route. You're just never allowed to really put it to rest. So when Elizabeth's death was initially reported in 1985, it was a period, it was believed to

7:19have been the result of natural causes of brain aneurysm. So there was no reason for the individual performing the autopsy to suspect foul play back then. And on top of that, the individual conducting the autopsy actually had no experience with homicide cases up to that point. I'm sorry, what? Yeah. So he might not have recognized signs of murder. Yeah, no. Even if it was suspected at the time, which again, it wasn't. But that's interesting. That is interesting. After conducting as thorough an autopsy as was possible on Elizabeth Ratless remains, Dr. Deborah Ratish concluded that Elizabeth Ratless death was inconsistent with the fall down the stairs. Rather, it is indicative of multiple blunt force impacts, either from blows to the head caused by a blunt object or by the head being forcibly struck against a hard surface. Well, that sounds familiar. It sure does. In other words, the... No, the fuck? Elizabeth's injuries were remarkably similar to Kathleen's injuries.

8:20The doctor continued, it is my further opinion that these injuries were incurred while Mrs. Ratlif, excuse me, was alive and are of sufficient severity to have caused her death. Holy shit. As far as Dr. Ratish could tell, the intercranial hemorrhages initially identified as Elizabeth's cause of death were the result of blunt force trauma, not natural causes, like previously believed. Shit. Yeah. What a fucking... Like that would be a gut punch. Now the thing that confuses me a little bit and I figured you might be able to explain this to me. Because it says, in the quote, like could have been blows by the head being forcibly struck against a hard surface. If you're falling down the stairs, is your head not being struck against a hard surface multiple times? Not forcibly. Not forcibly. Not forcibly indicate that somebody was forcing your head into a... Okay. If you're just a different...

9:21It's a passive hit when you're falling without someone. Forcibly would be taking your head and slamming it forcibly into this like more inertia. Falling somewhere is a passive act. Gotcha. Yeah. All right. Well, that changed things. Sure does. So, she didn't have the authority to change the initial findings because it was a German case. Yeah. But Dr. Ratish did indicate that if she did have the... had the authority to do so, she would revise the cause of death to homicide. Wow. Yeah. That's a big statement. It is. Now, by that time, Margaret and Martha Ratliff had already lost so much. Yeah. Their father had died in combat. Their mother had died and Kathleen, their stepmother had now died under mysterious circumstances. Yeah. And their aunts and adopted sister Caitlin. I don't... It doesn't seem like they were speaking to each other at this point. Oh, man. That's a massive disagreement, obviously. Yeah. On top of that, they were now also facing the possibility of losing the only father figure left in their lives to a potential life sentence.

10:23Should he be convicted? That's horrifying. That is possibly why when the results of Elizabeth's autopsy were made public, Margaret and Martha rejected the implication that Michael was somehow responsible for the death and they still chose to stand by him. Now, in the 16 months since Kathleen's death, the Peterson family had learned obviously a great deal more about Michael Peterson than they ever thought they would. Yeah. And more about the death of their loved ones than they ever wanted to know. Or not that they ever wanted to know, but just that they ever would expect that they were ever asking for. To some, like Caitlin, the lies, the deceit and the evidence of violence were enough to convince her of Michael's guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. But others remained skeptical and chose to trust the man that they knew and loved, hoping that the long-awaited trial would be Michael Peterson's opportunity to prove his innocence. With everybody having chosen their sides, at that point, all that was left was for a jury to hear the arguments. Now, it took more than a month to select the jury for such a high profile case.

11:25But finally on July 1, 2003, opening statements were made in the state of North Carolina versus Michael Peterson. After 18 months of investigation and of pretrial arguments, the prosecution led by Jim Hardin believed they had a simple and pretty straightforward case that backed up, that was backed up by evidence. He told the jury, they said it's an accident, a fall down the stairs, and we say it's not. We say it's murder. I'm pretty simple. Yeah. That's easy to understand. Now holding with the prosecution believed to be the murder weapon in his hand, a four-foot brass fireplace tool known as a blowpoke. Hardin told the jury that they would be hearing a lot about a couple storybook romance, how they were soulmates and best friends, and how nobody could believe Michael Peterson could have harmed or killed his wife. But Hardin said, this case is all about things not appearing as they seem. He said, Michael Peterson himself was not what he seemed, and that was the motive for murder. According to his theory, Michael killed Kathleen after she had discovered that he was a

12:28closeted gay man, and had also been having sex with men at various points during their marriage, all of which he had kept a secret up to that point. Those are, that's his argument. I'm not talking about that. While the family might not have found the revelations about Michael's sexuality shocking, Caitlin was convinced that her mother would have been devastated how she found out. She said, I genuinely cannot believe that she could know anything about that. I know from every value she's taught me the way that I was raised, that's not something she would have been willing to accept. Now I want to be clear. I don't think she's talking about like... Like being gay or anything like that. I think she's talking about infantility. Yeah, I think that. I just want to make that crystal clear. She would not have accepted her partner having an affair because also she hadn't in the past. Yeah, exactly. Unfortunately, her first husband had an affair and she had the marriage. Exactly, and she did not accept it. So just making that clear. Now if that wasn't motive enough, there was also the life insurance policy. The prosecution was arguing. $1.4 million would have gone a long way to paying down their debt that they were in,

13:32and they were in a good amount of debt. All of this, hard and assured, the jury would be supported by the evidence, but he was banking on more than that. He said, I think it's all about the exercise of your reason and common sense. When you get right down to it, it's about her. Please remember, it's ultimately about her, meaning Kathleen obviously. Now, in his opening statements, Defent's attorney David Rudolph had an entirely different story to tell the jury. He started by saying nothing at all and instead playing the recordings of Michael's call to 911, which was, it's a heroin call. Yeah, I'm sure. I hate having to listen to 911 calls. I know. I do not like an animal. It feels weirdly invasive. It does. I think the only time it ever made its way into a morbid episode was the Weepy voice killer.

14:33It was because of him. Yeah, just because of the voice. Other than that, both of us are not interested. Yeah. Now, in the 90 minutes that followed, though, Rudolph went over the prosecution's theory, point by point, explaining why and how they were wrong about Michael Peterson. According to Rudolph, Michael and Kathleen's romance was, quote, a love that absolutely everyone who saw them or knew them recognized and envied. Murder wasn't just unsupported by the facts, he said. It was absolutely unthinkable. He said, had taken volume that day and later in the evening, she had several glasses of wine. So the combination of the two affected her equilibrium, her motor skills. So when she reached the top of the stairs, she was dizzy, she lost her balance and she fell. Okay. Which is also a pretty compelling argument. It is. Using a projector, he showed the jury a video prepared by one of the experts prepared the defense, which demonstrated how the fall could have caused the lacerations on Kathleen scalp. Okay. According to the video, Kathleen fell backwards on the steps, cracked her scalp on a door molding,

15:33fell to the landing, cut her head again on floor molding, got up and slipped and cut her head once more on the corner of the staircase. Okay. Which, hey, I have to see the video, but if you're showing me, you know, and it just, I think, just to be clear, like the staircase kind of goes down and then turns a bit just just like so you can capture that a little better. Yeah. You can also like look up photographs. Yeah. Rudolph's video and the promised forthcoming evidence supporting their claims weren't all he had planned for the trial. There was also the matter of what he felt was the Durham police department's overly enthusiastic pursuit of Michael to what he thought was the exclusion of any other possible scenario. I know. He told the jury, the police had reason to think the worst. A Michael Peterson had been critical of the police for years, essentially implying that they'd been waiting for an opportunity to get back at him for his endless opinion pieces in the newspaper, criticizing their performance throughout the years. Damn. And he said this was precisely that opportunity. I mean, and again, that when you put it like that, yeah, there's seen that shit happen

16:40before. There's strong arguments on both sides. Mm-hmm. No, after a brief break for lunch, the trial did get underway and the prosecution's first witness, paramedic J. Rose, who told the jury how he'd found Kathleen's body upon arrival at the Peterson House testified. According to Rose, the scene immediately struck him as something other than an accident. There was, quote, an enormous amount of blood, he said, and Kathleen's injuries were not consistent with a fall. He also confirmed that at the time, Michael was either unwilling or unable to help the paramedics with any information as they tried to revive Kathleen. Mm-hmm. Which is strange. Yeah, but also, you can be unable versus unwilling. That's true. And it's a very stressful situation. And it's a very fine line. But we love to think about a husband finding their wife at the bottom of the stairs if they are innocent. Yeah. You're going to be in an emotional state that is indescribable. Yeah, you know? Yeah. I mean, yeah, I mean, my mom has fallen down the stairs and I've both asked her myself are

17:42always there when, when, in the aftermath of that. And my dad is always an absolute wreck. Yes, exactly. And like, so it happens. Yeah. Now, with the sensational and dramatic opening statements, the first month of the trial was pretty much concerned with the medical findings and the autopsy, information about finances and the details of the crime scene itself from investigators. It wasn't until early August, when Harding got back to the prosecution's theory for a motive, that things kind of started to take on a more tabloid journalism tone. Until that point in the trial, Michael Peterson's bisexuality was only hinted at by the prosecution, but there weren't any real details provided. But then on August 7th, Harding introduced into evidence the contents of Michael's computer, including an email exchange with a male sex worker who Michael had been planning to meet up with four sex. Well, that, that changes things. My short does. Yeah. The question of contents of Michael's computer was a direct challenge to the defense's claim

18:44that Michael and Kathleen were happily married. Yes. The prosecution claimed Kathleen hadn't known about Michael's bisexuality until the night she died. According to assistant prosecutor David Sacks, around 11 p.m. on the night of her death, Kathleen got a call from a co-worker who needed to send her a document. So Kathleen gave them Michael's email address because that was the computer at home. Now, as a result, Sacks said, Kathleen, quote, had an opportunity to be on the computer. And in Michael's email, where she could have discovered the September 2001 email exchange with the male sex worker. Eee. And it was just one hour later that the medical examiner believed Kathleen was killed. Okay. That's very compelling. That's very compelling. Now, the defense quickly shot back at the claim under cross examination with defense attorney Thomas Merr arguing that that scenario laid out a lot of maybes. Yeah. Which it does. It does. Yeah. So speculation in here say aside, the sexuality angle took hold and the public was hooked.

19:45Then two days later, the jury was introduced to the very male sex worker that Michael had been exchanging emails with. Oh, boy. I left their name out of this. It's reported on in some places, but I don't know. They might not want to be dragged into this this many years later. Oh, it's like they, yeah, it's whatever. On this stand, he explained that at the time of his email exchanges with Peterson, he was advertising his services on an escort website for men seeking sex with other men. He said he received an email from Michael in late August expressing interest in his services, but ultimately they never met in person and they never had sex. But they talked about it. So as Thomas Merr had pointed out, the existence of nearly 3,000 gay and pornographic images on Michael's computer and his email exchanges were not evidence that Michael or that Kathleen had discovered his bisexuality that you can't just say that because they existed. Just because that. Yeah. And that is true. But for the prosecution, that might not have been the point by bringing Michael sexuality into the trial, showing the jury lurid in pornographic images of gay sex at that time

20:49and introducing them to the very male sex worker that Michael had been communicating with. Jordan had effectively undermined the perception of the marriage is perfect. Of course he did. Exactly. Which like that was a brilliant tactic. And that's what it was. Yeah. It also should be said that there's no evidence that Kathleen knew about Michael's interest in men and the only evidence that she would have objected was offered by Caitlin who did know her very well, obviously, of course. But we don't know. Harden's emphasis on Michael's sexuality obviously was a strategy to inject the jury with a certain amount of doubt and also to Sully's character. Yeah. Because in 2001, there was no room in public discourse for the subject of open marriages. No. That was not a thing. And now, and even at that time introducing like anything but a straight marriage or a straight relationship into this is also going to it was just a different situation. It was. And the other thing was in the minds of a lot of Americans back then, including queer

21:51people being bisexual, just meant you were gay. Yeah. No, like it was just like a pit stop on the way. Like nobody could believe that he could be happily married to a woman. That he could be attracted to women and men. And yeah, they were just like no, your gay and she's a beard essentially is like what people thought of. People are like, by isn't real. And unfortunately, people still think I was going to say people still think that they do. It also would have been difficult for a lot of people to understand how Michael and Kathleen could have a satisfying fulfilling relationship unless they were both straight back then. Because again, it's that weird thing that like if you're straight, it's not automatically assumed that you're going to go have an affair with another person that you're attracted to. But if you're by, then obviously you're not going to be able to like stop yourself from being with the other right people that you were attracted to. Like if you're married to a woman, you're not going to be able to stop yourself from having a relationship with a man because you just have to. And it's like no, that's literally not how commitment works. No, it's not. It's not how monogamy works. Basically at the end of the day, I think the prosecution was hoping to strengthen their

22:54argument with like some institutional homophobia. Absolutely. It feels that way. Yeah. And that's my opinion. They were just throwing some mud on it and seeing what's stuck. I think there was, I think it was valid to introduce some of that information obviously because it was valid to introduce the idea of an affair as a motive or that he was willing to. I mean, if you're talking, this is me, if you're talking to anybody about possibly getting together as an affair, that's an affair. Yes, I agree. That's cheating. That's bad. That doesn't paint you in a good light. Nope. And it doesn't paint your marriage. If you're in a monogamous marriage straight gay, buy whatever the situation, if you are outside of your marriage trying to meet up with someone to do that, I mean, it doesn't look good. No, it doesn't. It doesn't. And especially not when your partner ends up. Well, that's the thing. It's like, and then you add this on to it. It's like, yeah, that doesn't make you look good, dude.

23:55I think they just don't make the marriage look like what you're saying in it. No, I think they just went to like the ends degree to prove that. Exactly. Now, despite the lack of evidence that Kathleen knew of or objected to Michael sexuality, Hardin and the rest of the prosecution team was pretty sure it was the trigger for the argument that led to her death. Hardin said and argued she had already been through a previous marriage where in fidelity was an issue and she didn't tolerate it. And why would she tolerate it now? There was a trigger and we've contended all along that she must have found something out about this lifestyle that caused it. Now, and it's a valid theory. It is. It's completely. It's a theory. They would be crazy not to use that theory. Not to present. Yeah. After the, I think the tough thing is those that you have no idea if she discovered it or not. Honestly, that's not the tough thing. That's the brilliant part. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, that's true. You have no evidence that she didn't. So it could go there. So it's literally just, of course, they're going to throw that out. That's a perfect theory to throw out. It fits perfect. She's already been cheated on.

24:57And she showed that she wasn't sticking around. If she got cheated on here and she said, see you later, goodbye. And he lost it. That's a perfect catalyst for something like this to happen. It is true. And they can say, yeah, you don't know if she found that though. And you can say, yeah, you don't know if she didn't. You know, she didn't. Right. So reasonable doubt. Yeah. I don't think it's easy. Well, after three months of testimony, the press described as lurid, graphic, and sometimes nap and do you say, which is very rude? Wow. Yeah, I was like, wow, literal murder case. Yeah. Okay. The case did finally come to an end on October 3rd, 2003. It's October 3rd. I knew you were going to say that I had to. After both sides gave their closing arguments, the court adjourned for the weekend and was expecting to resume the following Monday with jury deliberation. However, that Monday morning, Judge Orlando Hudson was informed that one of the jury members had been arrested over the weekend for public intoxication. And when he was put into a cell, the jury told the officer, he was on the Michael Peterson jury and they didn't need to mess with him. Huh.

25:58That's not how that works. It's not how that works. It's obviously unusual, but not bad on her to replace a jury member of that lady in a trial. But that wasn't the end of it. Immediately after Judge Orlando replaced the jury member who had been arrested, he received a report regarding unas you should. That's what alternates are for. Yeah. Yeah. Topical. Immediately after he replaced that jury member though, he received another report regarding another jury member who was set to be a bank teller who had been heard saying negative things about Peterson who was a former customer of hers. There's a thing of a former customer of theirs. There's a thing about people. We're just always going to people. We're always going to fuck it up. It's wild that we can't stop people. But you know, it's crazy not even in like this situation. They're like, this is so important that you don't fucking run your goddamn mouth. And we're like totally for sure, for sure, for sure. On this book, yes. And then we're just like, gonna go have your heart. It's like, we just can't stop. It's wild. Well, crazy.

27:00That juror was also excused and replaced by an alternate. That's an option. Because that's an option. Yeah, if you don't do the jury thing right, you don't listen to the instructions, you don't follow the law. That's what an alternate is. Alternates. So finally, deliberation could begin now with two alternate having been placed in. Damn. Now on October 10th, after three days of exhausting deliberation, the jury emerged to find Michael Peterson guilty. The first degree murder of his wife, Kathleen. Damn. While Michael remains silent about the verdict, David Rudolf expressed his frustrations to the reporters a few minutes later. And he said he was going to appeal as soon as humanly possible. The guilty verdict was obviously accompanied by a sentence of life in prison without the possibility of parole. And Michael was let out of the courtroom in handcuffs and taken to Raleigh's central prison to begin serving his sentence. Wow. Now, years later, when they were asked about the verdict, several jurors were called feeling conflicted during deliberations. One juror told NBC News in 2006, I think there were times throughout the trial that I personally moved from one side to the other with regard to guilt or innocence.

28:03Oh, that's like wild to hear. Yeah, because that's doubt. It would just someone go away for the rest of their life. If you're like, yeah, but again, that's human. I couldn't be a jury member or a shot of a high profile case like this and just like a case any murder case I could never do. No. In the end, the jurors found the prosecution's point though about the Petersen's financial troubles to be compelling. And they were swayed by the testimony given about Michael's infidelity. Yeah. And they felt the biggest thing that the defense was trying to say was like they were the perfect couple. And so Michael would do this. All their close friends and loved ones agree that he wouldn't do this, but then you proved that he was willing to have an affair or step outside of his marriage. And you proved that yeah, everybody thought he was incapable of this.

29:04Everybody thought he wasn't capable of an affair either. So everyone doesn't know him exactly. That's what you're sewing. It's unfortunately been perfect. So Michael's first appeal came before the North Carolina Court of Appeals in April 2006. Among other things, his attorney argued that he'd been denied a fair trial due in large part to the extensive and sensational coverage in the press and the introduction of what he called a relevant evidence like Elizabeth Ratliffe's death. Um, I feel like that's pretty relevant. I feel that. Although the three judge panel concluded that there had been certain infractions in the investigation, they ultimately didn't affect the outcome of the trial. So the verdict was appalled. But because one of the judges on the panel dissented, the case was eligible for review by the state Supreme Court. So the next year, the North Carolina State Supreme Court reviewed the appeal submitted by mayor. But again, it was ultimately denied. Two years after Peterson's failed appeal with the state Supreme Court, a series of articles in the news and observer criticizing the state bureau of investigation prompted the state

30:07attorney general Roy Cooper at the time to open an investigation into the practices and success rates of the FBI. Oh, among the findings of the investigation was the fact that expert analysts at the FBI were turning in deeply flawed reports and providing counterproductive work on criminal cases. Or nor among those analysts who were found to be the most egregious was Duane Dever, whose blood spatter analysis was a critical part of the case against Michael Peterson. Oh, that's not good. That's why I told you right at the top of the part. I remember this will be called into question. So in 2011, in August, David Rudolf filed a motion with the court requesting copies of all the documentation compiled by the state during the investigation of the Peterson case, obviously intending to challenge the ruling. Yeah. As a result, the state hired an independent auditor who discovered that Dever had provided false testimony or misrepresented evidence in at least 34 cases.

31:13What? Including four in which he testified on behalf of the state, one of those cases was Michael Peterson's case. Oh, boy. That's a big fucking. That's a huge deal. That would, that's nuts. That's at least something that you go, uh-oh. So the findings of the independent auditor resulted in Michael Peterson's appeal for a new trial being granted. And in December 2011, he was released on bail pending a new trial, but he was placed on House arrest at that point and had to wear like an ankle month. Yeah. Out of jail, he started prepping for the new trial, but the road ahead was, you know, full of pretrial hearings and motions that delayed things significantly as a base. And November of 2016, Peterson's new lawyer, Mike Kling-Cossum, moved to have the second trial dismissed based on the delays on the testimony of Dever, but the motion was denied and a trial date was set for May of 2017. And just a few months later in February, the district attorney announced that they had

32:14reached a plea deal with Michael Peterson and they would not be proceeding with the second trial. All of the sudden, huh? According to the terms of the deal, Michael would enter an Alfred plea and an exchange would be, yeah, an exchange, he would be sentenced to 86 months in prison with credit for time served. He had already served 99 months so most by that time. So he was not going to have to go back to prison and he would lock away a free man. Now we said this at the top, you might remember us talking about Alfred, please from a couple cases, most notably the West Memphis three case. Basically by definition, it is a plea quote under which a defendant may choose to plead guilty, not because of an admission to the crime, but because the prosecutor has sufficient evidence to place a charge and obtain a conviction in court. Yeah. So it's basically saying that the state has enough evidence to convict you, but they're not going to. Yeah. It's so strange to me. The Alfred plea is weird. I think it's like, yeah, that's, I mean, that's, it's hard to explain it because it's

33:18like you get to maintain your innocence. They say they still think you're guilty. They just don't want to try you again. But to me, it always makes me think you don't want to try them again because you don't have enough. You don't have enough to convict you or what you do have is tainted. Exactly. Exactly. And that's, I mean, that's what it felt like with the West Memphis three case to me. I was like, they don't, they don't want to go in their face. So it's, it's weird. Yeah. It's, it's a, it's a strange plea. Yeah. So he can maintain his innocence, but the state continues to say no, you're guilty. But then it's weird too with an Alfred plea because you're like, so you're just letting someone you think is a murderer walk out? Yeah. And that is like never, never feel realistic to never make sense to me. And again, not to keep going back to it, but like with the West Memphis three case, I thought that too. I was like, you're just letting three child, the people who you think viciously murdered three eight year olds walk out. Yeah. You wouldn't do that. No. If you really thought they weren't guilty. And in this case, you believe because that part of the prosecution's argument was that he, they were trying to imply that he had also killed Elizabeth Ratliffe.

34:21Yeah. So it's like you think that he killed two women who he was involved with or, you know, friendly women. Yeah. And you're just going to let him walk free. Exactly. Yeah. It doesn't make any sense. It's strange. Now, since Michael's released in 2017, several articles, television shows and documentaries have focused on the case. The Alfred plea should have been the end of the story, but there have been other theories put forward to explain Kathleen's death. You mentioned this, I think, at the beginning of part one. Among the more interesting and bizarre explanations is that Kathleen's death was not alcohol-related or the result of an attack, an attack by an intruder, but was in fact caused by an owl that somehow got into the Peterson's home. Now, this, it sounds crazy, but listen, I don't, I'm not saying I believe this, but I'm like, it's not where it came from. Nobody like plucked it out of thin air. The theory was put forth by the Peterson's friend and neighbor, actually Larry Pollard, who was a lawyer that was unconnected to the original investigation and the trial.

35:23According to his theory, this is a quote. Kathleen was heading back into the Peterson's house when an owl silently swooped down and struck her head, digging its talons deep under her scalp. She moved inside to escape the bird, leaving a bit of blood outside. But because she had taken volume and had been drinking, the attack caused her to lose her balance and fall down the stairs. This explained the fall injuries and the injuries to Kathleen's scalp. Now, it's unclear what prompted him to conceive of this theory, but interestingly enough, there was a bird feather discovered on her body when she was found. Okay, that's kind of crazy. Isn't that weird? That is kind of crazy. Regardless of its origins, by the time Pollard did put his theory forward, Michael's case was already entering final arguments and the defense was obviously very limited at that point to enter new evidence. Yeah. This, I don't know how this would have sat with a jury. But while most people dismissed the theory as a fantasy, David Rudolph thought it was pretty compelling. He said, the feather that was in her hand.

36:24I just didn't focus on that. I figured it was from a down-computer. I take full responsibility for not having thought of that. And I give Larry Pollard credit for coming up with it. I just wish he had realized it six months earlier. But nobody knows what that is. It's a bird feather. That's actually kind of crazy. And also, it's like, why didn't anyone question a feather? And just assume it was a down-computer, where was the down-computer? Well, that's a... I have no idea. Huh. Isn't that strange? That is very... That's interesting. It's coo-key, but it... It's coo-key. When I first read it, I was like, what the fuck, where are we going here? But then when I... They were like, no, she was discovered with a feather at the time. Like, yeah. I was like, oh. Now, Owl's aside. As far as the Durham police and the District Attorney's Office are concerned, the Kathleen Peterson case is solved. And her killer has been identified and punished to the extent of that the court deemed appropriate. Following his release from prison, Michael returned to Durham and moved back in with his ex-wife, Patty, actually. He lived with her for two years until she died from a heart attack in April 2021.

37:25Since then, Michael is lived by himself in Durham with the support of most of his family. Unfortunately, as of now, he is not reconciled with Caitlin. And she moved out of state after the trial. Damn. I hope she's able to find some peace. Yeah. Because that's... That's tough. That is tough. It's a lot. It's no matter what. That man was a stepfather to you at some point. And then you lost a relationship. When you lost a relationship. Mother. You used to have. You lost a relationship you used to have. And then not only that, she, from at least during the trial and everything going on, she believed he had killed her mother. And now he gets to walk out of Freeman. Yeah. Like, that's a lot for her to sit with. Yeah. So. And then... So sad. If Michael isn't a son, just living in Durham, and people think you might have killed your wife. Yeah, like that's... That's rough. It's just a tragic story. It really is. Badly for Kathleen, she lost her life. And now it's just the subject of a bunch of people wondering what happened. Their eyes.

38:26What was going on. Yeah. You know, like, I don't think you should be laid to rest with all of those questions. That's the thing. You want justice to be served one way or the other. Right. You know? And I think in this case, it's like, the state says justice is served, but it's like, is it? Yeah. Alfred Pleser just so tough. Alfred Plese weird me out, right? Yeah, they're strange. They really are. But that is the mysterious death of Kathleen Peterson. That's crazy. Yeah. And obviously... That's a crazy story. More famously known as the staircase murder. That's the documentary we referenced a few times. It's called the staircase. Yeah. It's been talked about for years and years at this point. Oh, yeah. So I'm interested to hear what you guys think. That's nuts. Do you have a fucked fact for us? I was just looking one up. Give us a fucked fact. So I have a... I have like a... Oh, I didn't have it. It isn't a fucked fact. It can be a fun fact. It can be a fun fact. I have always had to do fucked facts. I'm having a tough week. Kids are going back to school. It's a part of the Christmas period. I'm struggling here emotionally, so I'm going to give you a fun fact.

39:29And honestly, though, like any other mom was out there or even dead at caregivers, are you struggling? I had an hard time, like with their kids. Yeah, tell me about it. She's not wanting to go back to school or like separation anxiety. Yeah, because we're struggling here. I feel like caregivers have to stick together. Yeah, I agree. And that's why, again, not enough. That's why we said about Annelies along the Waves app, which I think like you guys like flock to because they really trashed out. At one point, which is amazing, because it means a lot of people are going, yes. But that's the kind of shit. That's why she made that. But yeah, it's been a rough week. So I'm a little message in there. I think I immediately got drawn to a fun fact. Well, that's fine. I'll allow it. I'll allow it. So the 100 folds in a chef's hat. Do you know what they represent? 100 different cuisines. 100 different ways to cook an egg. There's a hundred ways to cook an egg. Yeah. Are you going to name them all right now? No, no. I'm not going to do that. I'm trying to like come up with as many as I can think of right now in my head. Damn.

40:30Yeah. 100 ways. Yep. According to Reluctant Gormet, the pleats used to signify a chef's level of experience, like the number of ways he or she knows how to prepare eggs. I'm obsessed with that. Isn't that cool? That's really cool. Tell me all the ways to cook eggs because I love eggs for my head down to my legs. Yeah. I love eggs. I love eggs so much. Yeah. Also just reminds me of the Amanda Bines. Oh, I like eggs. I like eggs. I think her name is like Debbie or something. I like eggs. I love that. Well, we hope you keep listening and we hope you keep it weird. And also we're the dole like us. That's your allergic. Then you cannot like me getting or something. It's okay. Yeah. Bye.

42:42Bye.