342. The Borden Murders

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1:06Mass scara Let's go on the first purchase when they use code mwmh at checkout Just hit the Jones Road beauty.com and use code mwmh at checkout after you purchase They will ask you where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them our show murder with my husband sent you This Monday dot com ad was created by a team of people and AI agents the agents wrote the copy and Managed the timelines while our human creative director made sure it all made sense easy create your own AI agent today on Monday dot com You're listening to an ono media podcast Hey, everyone welcome back to the podcast. This is murder with my husband. I'm Pete in moreland I'm Garrett Moreland and he's the husband and I'm the husband well We are still here. Baby has not come yet, but one more week Baby will be here. Oh Maybe I mean some babies they just love to stay in there. We're getting closer. Yeah, I don't know. We're getting closer pretty exciting

2:07Pain's not feeling good, but other than that we're pretty excited Daisy's trompin a clip in the background, so if you can hear that That is what is going on. She loves to destroy clips. I think we officially have all of our baby stuff set up. We're ready to go We kind of have everything we need for the most part. I just keep ordering more. I don't So yeah, we're excited and that's kind of what we got honestly guys. We just been preparing for this baby working preparing some more working some more Getting ready to get paying some time off and yeah, what else? I think today's case might be a little long really So maybe we should just get into it before it's okay. Everyone has heard of what do you know about it? Nothing Nothing. I know absolutely nothing about it. I know nothing about it, but all of you guys will know everything about it Let me let me do my intro and then I'll ask you what you think you know about it. So if you've never heard this case

3:14This will be good one for you. I'm gonna leave our sources for the end of the episode. Okay. I mean Here's the problem is the title of the episode most likely says what it is. Yeah, so everyone will know it like yeah, but for you for you We'll do this for you. Lizzie Borden took an axe and gave her mother 40 wax When she saw what she had done She gave her father 41 it's a nursery rhyme you've heard before you've probably even maybe repeated it yourself wait that's a nursery Right Yep, but the problem is it is wildly inaccurate as are a lot of repeated things about the story of Lizzie Borden Time has a way of rewriting history. That's no surprise But nowadays Hollywood is definitely taking it a step further And while the creative liberties definitely make for good TV and in Netflix's case Commentary about female repression and rage

4:17The reality is Lizzie Borden was not some demure shrinking violet having a sexual awakening with her housekeeper She was likely motivated by a lot of things that we typically see in true crime cases money Maybe a little bit of revenge So today we are unpacking the real story behind Lizzie Borden Talking about what Netflix got right And what was just pure fiction all together. So Garrett, what do you know about Lizzie Borden? Nothing You'd never heard that nursery rhyme No, no, no, I've never heard that nursery rhyme which I thought that it was part of the case So it was a little confused at first. It is. I mean, it's a real thing. So is this an older Yes, it happened a long time ago then 1800s No idea. I you could have said 2026. So it said cool But I've never heard of this. I don't know how I don't know how that's possible because I

5:17I don't live under a rock. I do swear. I don't I Keep up with almost everything except True crime. Had you heard the name Lizzie Borden? I feel like maybe I'm not gonna say no because I feel like I've probably heard it before So you definitely and never never heard the 40 wax? No, I promise you have never heard that before So you know literally nothing no and Garrett also has not watched the Netflix documentary No, I probably won't ever watch the Netflix documentary. It's not even a documentary show. It's correct I watched it and as always Whenever there is an intriguing remake of a case I love to do a deep dive of What's real what's not what actually happened here? What made for good TV? You know, I love a good retelling of a story But then it always needs followed up with that deep dive of something I don't know nothing about this. So let's get into it So Let's travel back to over a century and a half ago

6:19The year is 1860 and in the fast growing city of fall river, Massachusetts Sarah and Andrew Borden are welcoming their third child Elizabeth Andrew Borden Now this third child Elizabeth Lizzie as she was called was a blessing She had a sister Emma who was nine years old and another baby who came between the two a little girl named Alice Though Alice had died before even reaching the age of two and unfortunately this was far more common back then And it goes to show that even the wealthiest most successful people aren't immune to tragedy even back then Lizzie's father Andrew Had started his career out as a cabinet maker and a carpenter mostly making furniture He did own one company that made coffins

7:22But if you've watched the Netflix series Andrew was not handling any bodies or chopping them off at the legs to make them fit into these coffins Like we've watched on TV Instead He evolved into a prominent businessman who worked in real estate and manufacturing back in the 1860s He invested in cloth mills banks multiple properties Some sources said he worked 14 hours a day but pretty much everyone in fall river knew the Borden name because they were wealthy They were respected. He was an entrepreneur But just because they were respected does not mean everyone had the kindest things to say About Mr. Borden Before Sarah his wife and him got married she had worked as a seamstress But now she was a full-time mother

8:22Though Sarah didn't get to perform that role for very long at least not for the youngest sister Lizzie By March of 1863 Sarah was suffering from a long and painful illness and she died that month at just 39 years old She left behind a 22-month-old baby Lizzie And 12-year-old Emma and then a husband Who was absolutely devastated and suddenly Andrew Borden this prominent man is left to raise two little girls all on his own And this was a job that he was not cut out for now It is true that 12-year-old Emma promised her dying mother one thing before she died And that was that she would look after baby Lizzie Protect her baby sister at all costs and Emma would go on to follow through on that promise a lot more than like what has been portrayed As for Andrew he decided he would just rather remarry than have to raise these girls alone

9:28So two years later in June of 1865 The now 42-year-old Andrew tied the knot with the daughter of a push-cart peddler named Abby Durphy Gray now at this point Abby was 37 she had no children of her own But the truth was Lizzie wasn't even old enough to remember her birth mother much Or realize that Abby Her stepmother now Was someone who came from a much lower social class that was now stepping into place to become her mom But 12-year-old Emma was old enough to realize what was going on and she Supposedly resented Abby far more than Lizzie did growing up And over the years Lizzie and Emma remained a strong united front as sisters Despite their age gap they were extremely close even as they got older

10:30Always looking out for each other always defending one another especially when it came to their parents Now by the time the girls had reached adulthood Andrew Borden was worth half a million dollars which would be roughly 18 million dollars today And Lizzie had become an active and well-respected member of the Fall River community She was a regular at the Central Congregationalist Church She also taught Sunday School there She was part of the woman's Christian Temperance Union Which supported the prohibition of alcohol, anti-tabacco and drug campaigns, labor rights and even a woman's right to vote At 20 years old she was even given a seat on the board at the Fall River hospital Plus Lizzie Borden had a pretty busy social calendar Not exactly the home body that she's been painted to be though she was perpetually

11:32Okay, and sources said That's because she was extremely picky when it came to men and being married off And in the rare case that she did bring home someone she liked Her father thought they weren't good enough for her and Emma her older sister also found herself in a similar situation Always single saying she never could quite find anyone right enough to marry And because of that both sisters lived at home still well into their adulthood Which brought them even closer And as far as their relationship with their stepmother Abby Well, that's where things get a bit murkier Then maybe the Netflix series or other portrayals have made it seem One thing was for sure though Emma and Lizzie were not buddy buddy with their stepmother Abby They Apparently refused to call her mother

12:33Which was why they would refer to her to her face as Mrs. Borden which we saw in the Netflix series like When they you know when she would call their name they would say yes Mrs. Borden I mean, I don't know is it that I feel like that happens in a lot of Families I might have step parents right Lizzie was Is Basically raised from her at three years old sure so she this is really the only mother figure she's known Okay, but this is like the dynamic in the family Some sources say they even refused to share a meal with her and their father oh gosh So the two daughters would eat separately from the parents at dinner I guess there was one time when a dressmaker referred to Abby as Lizzie and Emma's mother And Lizzie Borden snapped her and said quote don't call her that to me She is a mean thing and we hate her but How mean was she like are these feelings justified?

13:36Well, that's what's always been called into question Their take on their stepmother was that she had come into the home from a lower social class And married Andrew their dad not out of love but for his wealth and social status When the two tied the knot Abby was 37 years old which was basically considered an old maid back then But they also felt their father never really truly loved her either The Abby was only brought into the family to basically be a housekeeper and a nanny for the girls It was a marriage of convenience and because of the times One Emma and Lizzie didn't believe in and they honestly wanted nothing to do with Now as villainous as Abby has been made out to be in Lizzie Borden's story both in the Hollywood and revisionist history versions There is really no concrete reports of her ever abusing or neglecting the Borden sisters There were also reports that the Borden women had gotten frustrated with their fathers

14:41He was a frugal man despite being very wealthy And the fact that their adults and live at home this kind of bothered them over the years as they got older Despite having tons of money the house didn't have indoor plumbing or gas lighting Which was already common in most middle to upper-class households at that time In fact sources said Lizzie was extremely embarrassed of her home and how modest cramped and out of date It was for how wealthy her father was And that's why she rarely invited people over there to socialize Plus Andrew reportedly refused to give his daughters money for things Which became a huge deal when they learned Andrew Had handed over a significant chunk of cash to his new wife Abby Today's episode is brought to you by collective a company built on a simple idea What if GLP ones didn't have to cost hundreds of dollars a month Collective offers doctor prescribed compounded GLP ones for 59 dollars a month from registered US pharmacies

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17:54in 1887 Abby told Andrew her half sister had fallen on hard times and she was looking for a place to stay And rather than offer her a room at the house Andrew did Abby one better. He said why don't we just buy your sister home to live in Only Andrew never told his grown daughters Lizzie who's now 27 And Emma who is 36 About this purchase so 27 year old and 36 year old are still living at home and then their father's like Yeah, honey. Let's just buy your your sister They're at a home so that we don't have to board her here. Okay, which to the adult daughters Was like okay, what about us like we're still living at home Um, and he didn't tell him about it. So they ended up finding about it from other people in town After that the sisters felt like Abby their stepmother had some sort of financial power over their father

18:56So they went to their father and they bring up the issue they're like I don't know like so far It just sounds like normal family drama like welcome to having I'm curious where this goes But it's like I feel like I hear about the stuff all the time with step parents and parents and remaring and the divorce like it's Very common and I do think back then generational money For the upper class was an even more complicated topic So it's true. Yes, it was very different. It was like you were born Yes, social status and everything was Like a new money was not really a thing and money wasn't necessarily just means of correct physical survival It was means of social survival as well like your spot in society Was a lot more prominent for your survival back then than it is today like if you were a Beyond yeah, and you're like

19:57And you I guess bad term but we sold your way in to like a rich family. I mean, that's why the daughters That's what they think about their mother nobody liked you And it's just because of the family she was born into So they go to the father they press the issue. They're like listen if you're gonna be giving away money to Your wife and to her family then we need some cash of our own like we're full grown adults and you need to give us money to Now eventually Andrew gave in he allowed the sisters to buy the home. They had lived in before their mother died For one dollar and then in July of that year They went to sell it again Because I guess they cared more about the money than the actual sentiment of like I will buy The family home that you had with your mother or you can buy it from me for one dollar And then they just immediately sold it and took the money. They actually end up selling it back to Andrew for

21:00$5,000. Okay, so he gives it to them for one dollar and they're like and we don't want it anymore You can have it back for five thousand dollars. That's a hundred and seventy six thousand dollars today That's really weird And even after this Tensions keep brewing in the board and house but 1889 brought one outsider who kind of seemed to change the family dynamic a little bit It was a woman named Bridget Sullivan Bridget Sullivan. All right, let's hear about Bridget now much like the Netflix version Bridget had emigrated from Ireland and by the time she applied to be the boarden's Living made she was about 26 years old. So she's actually younger than both of the boarden sisters Now after she got the job It was actually Emma and Lizzie Who decided to call her Maggie Because it was the name that they called all of their previous housekeepers

22:04So instead of calling them their actual name That's okay. So they wouldn't even call her Bridget It was she was referred to as Maggie again. We're in different times everybody This wasn't Abby or Andrew's idea like we saw but There were no signs that anyone in the family really treated Bridget Cruelly instead she was just kind of treated like any other house made at the time Any other employee they mostly just kind of kept their distance from Still Bridget was working for their family as things at home Are getting worse and worse between the parents and the daughters over the next few years And in May of 1892 Things in the boarden family started to collapse and Andrew boarden Suddenly snapped now. There's a few variations of this story But here's the ones that historical records tend to say That spring in 1892 Andrew boarden went out to the family's barn

23:06Where Lizzie boarden had recently built a roost for wild pigeons But Andrew claiming the pigeons attracted infections and disease Or by some accounts neighborhood children onto their property Decided to take a hatchet and kill all the pigeons that were in Lizzie's Roost that she built not cool stories say And again guys that was Andrew the father Story say Lizzie was rather upset about her father's sudden outburst and that he had killed these animals so mercilessly that she had kind of taken care of Others say that he brought them into the house and had them cooked up for dinner and Lizzie didn't do so much as by an eye But it does seem like somewhere in this story how come you have Two different how do we have a nursery rhyme about him? Why do we have one spectrum in another end of the spectrum? Well, this is why there's a thousand versions of the story and why there's a nursery rhyme made about this story

24:10So we don't even know actually really what is true and not true This is like Down to the core of historical research the most accurate story we couldn't Put together, but that's why I'm telling you there are different variations like kind of bugs me sometimes because Right, but you know what like who knows this is the thing about the 1800s And I know we're like in 1890 so we're almost into the 1900s, but even the early 1900s This stories I know they're all over the place you can't even trust a true crime case from back then because a detective could have like stepped On a piece of wood a weird way and then been like it was the neighbor and then like that was enough evidence You know what I mean like every time we flashback to events and true crimes that have happened in the past like History oh it drives me nuts. I know I kind of dress me crazy too Okay, so apparently the killing of the pigeons is

25:12Still according to all sources a trigger for Lizzie because after that the arguments between the sisters and their father escalated in July Emma and Lizzie took an extended vacation away from the house to get some space And when Lizzie came back to town She refused to go back to the board and house for a few days because she was still really mad So instead she stayed at a local Rooming house so no the birds were not doves Like we saw and no Abby the stepmother wasn't the one who slaughtered them in a fit of rage In fact Some sources say Lizzie didn't even consider the pigeons her pets, but the bird massacre Does seem like a major plot point in Lizzie's lore according to most sources because just a few months later Both her parents are going to be found dead Kim All right, let's hear it A day before these murders an unexpected visitor showed up at the board and store step

26:18their maternal uncle So their dead mom yes, Sarah's brother brother His name was John morse He arrived on August 3rd 1892 Around 130 p.m. This is less than 24 hours Before Lizzie's parents murders This maternal uncle shows up In fact his trip was so spontaneous that I guess he arrived without any luggage He said he was visiting some relatives around the area and just wanted to stop by I think it's kind of funny back then like you're gonna show up at people's houses and everyone's like whoa Like what's going on? Hey, how's it going? So I don't know just doesn't really happen now But he also says that this random drop in like after No contact with this family was also because he had some business matters to discuss with Andrew his

27:20Dead sisters husband That afternoon John then left to go see another family member nearby and then he returned to the board and house that evening to spend the night there But before going to bed he had a discussion with the father Andrew and And some sources say the stepmother Abby as well Now there's no official record on what those matters were or what they talked about during this meeting But it's the timing of his arrival without any luggage and then Father and mother show up dead 24 hours later This some do find suspicious like how does this long lost uncle show up to potentially talk about business and money and then these two end up dead Who especially back in these times got money if family members ended up dead did they have a disagreement money property family affairs His visit definitely becomes a sticking point in the case later But his stay wasn't the only shady thing that had happened that day

28:25Apparently that same afternoon Lizzie went to a drugstore in fall river and remember she's unlike not speaking terms with her dad at this point And she asked the pharmacist if she could buy 10 cents worth of Prusic acid Which is basically a form of cyanide In the 24 hours before her parents raise you could just go buy that yes at the local pharmacist That's nuts Lizzie tells him she needs it to clean a sillskin cape But they apparently refuse to sell it to her like you need a prescription Which is interesting because Abby Already suspected she had been poisoned once the stepmother Apparently the night before on August 2nd Abby Andrew and the maid Bridget Had eaten some leftover broth that made them violently ill And they woke up in the middle of the night with intense stomach pains

29:29And Abby was so certain that next morning that she had been poisoned that she actually went across the street to the family doctor To tell him about it She's like we all ended up sick again Bridget the house made also ate this soup And ended up sick Andrew however the father He was just like it was a bad batch of soup. It's the 1800s He thought Abby was being paranoid He even waved the doctor away when he came to check in on him the morning of the third But maybe Abby was right because by the following afternoon Her stepdaughter had gone to try and buy cyanide And she ended up dead Now the morning of August 4th 1892 Started out like any normal day in the board and household Andrew left at his usual time to go check in on his businesses And Abby was left home alone with Lizzy and their live-in housekeeper Bridget

30:32The only real difference was that that morning Emma was about 15 miles away on vacation So Emma wasn't home And their uncle John had spent the night like I told you So father leaves in the morning for work It's now Abby adult daughter Lizzy And uncle John who are at the house And despite the fact that uncle John spent the night He reportedly left the next morning around 8.45 am to go visit another niece that was in town Now the way Lizzy tells it Abby received a note that morning from a sick friend asking Abby to come visit So Lizzy assumed her stepmother was packing up her things to make the trip And heading out right away Meanwhile Lizzy said she spent the next half hour or so Out in the barn and she also claimed And this is one of the parts from the show that is true

31:34She was looking for a sinker for a possible fishing excursion she was going to attend She said she even ate some pears out in the barn during this time And then around 11 a.m. or so she finally makes her way back inside the family home Okay And that is when she found her father had actually returned home from work by 11 a.m. Only when she walks inside from being out in the back on the family farm for hours She now finds her father dead Inside the family sitting room. Okay. He had been viciously attacked In his head and face with a sharp weapon Lizzy said at this point she screamed for Bridget Because she thinks Abby has gone to visit a sick friend so she thinks Bridget the housemate is the only other person who's home

32:34And asked Bridget to go get a doctor and her good friend who lived down the street Alice Russell Now Bridget comes back from fetching both of them in minutes now Dr. Bowen the boardens usual physician checked Andrew's pulse quickly concluded he was dead I will say He was obviously dead. Uh-huh And it was just after that that she's like wait What about Mrs. Borden like she had she left the house yet or is she still here Because she was supposed to go visit a friend but did she ever actually make it So now with two more with Bridget there and the doctor she's like what about Mrs. Borden So she yells out for her and claimed they ran upstairs to see if she was still home or if she had left And that's when they discover her body in the family home as well of course of course she is dead In a pool of her own blood In the second floor guest room where her uncle John

33:39Had spent the night The night before but he left at 8.45 a.m So Andrew and the stepmom mom are both dead. Yes with the same type of wife and they both been obviously Chopped up not chopped up, but you know what I'm saying Accent to death. Yes, accident would basically chopped up at that point Wow Bridget one was down downstairs One was upstairs. Yes Well Bridget the house made we don't know where she was at this point and she's fine And Lizzie claims she was in the barn the entire time Lizzie claims that Lizzie herself was in the barn the entire time Now It's not long before police show up they start asking questions The Bordans have been asked to death. This is huge news in fall river. Yep Lizzie repeated the story you just heard at least at first But as time passed according to most sources Her details start to change they always do they always do She began by telling them the reason she went back inside from outside was because she heard a grunt or a groan

34:46Coming from the house Now when she tells the story later she claims She heard nothing she was just coming back in the house because she was done outside There was nothing wrong But the officers had other issues with Lizzie. They felt she was calm She was poised for someone who had literally just found their parents dead In such a brutal way But despite all of this no one checked Lizzie for blood stains checked her fingernails They didn't they barely searched her bedroom Claiming they didn't want to disturb Lizzie since she obviously wasn't feeling well after finding her parents murdered And she just needed to lie down now and police check the barn to look for clues and confirm Lizzie's alibi They find it so stiflingly hot That they couldn't imagine anyone had spent one minute in there Let alone 20 minutes In this barn eating pairs why was it so hot? Because outside yeah, okay, they also found no footprints outside that was suggest Lizzie had recently been walking around there that morning

35:54So after this they search the basement And there they find what they believed to be the murder weapon And I've been calling it the axe the nursery rhyme calls it the axe Everyone refers to it as axed to death, but I'm a bear out to I'm about to drop it's a sword It was probably just a hatchet Like a smaller version of an axe. It wasn't an axe Even though I mean that's fine. I get it. I mean I hatch it. Hatchets tend to be quite a bit smaller But I mean I understand the reference so it was involving sounds more brutal So yeah history and Hollywood have both told us that it was an axe, but it likely wasn't an axe. I know if that detail matters That much axe hatchet. I don't know. It's just that axe and boredom have been so Like tied together. Yes, but it was probably hatchet

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38:58That is up to date in real time. So when you're out of milk or someone needs new cleats It just goes on this shared list that everyone can add to join the 6.5 million Family members who trust green light Garrett has younger siblings. They've used green light and it is so amazing to Watch them Learn about money in the safety of their home. You've got enough on your plate green light keeps it all in sync Get started at green light calm slash husband that is green light calm slash husband green light calm slash husband Go check it out now There was a fresh break in this hatchet's handle and it was rubbed in ash and dust As if someone had tried to make it look like it had been in the basement for a while Like untouched They also found some bloody clothes and rags in the basement. No, my gosh. Lizzy tells them no, no, no That's just from my menstruation or as in the show her mencise Which I thought I that's like that's funny that I know they did refer to it that and it can't be but she says that's my mencise rack

40:03So the officers drop the mencise rag they're like oh, this is your menstruation blood Yeah, we're not even going to look into it. We'll just put all this blood back Bloody clothing and cloth back in the basket and they moved on and we're gonna move on no way now After the autopsy a clearer picture of that gruesome warning comes into focus 64 year old abbey board and 64 Was attacked first her autopsy documented 19 wounds not 40 wax 18 of these wax though. We're still to her head. Oh my god. That is still very unthinkably violent her father 69 year old Andrew suffered 11 wounds not 41 10 of which made his face completely unrecognizable because they were majority to I just don't understand how you do that. I truly don't understand They also believe he was killed about a half hour after abbey maybe because he came home from work late

41:10Or he had been at work and then came home Either way the victim's stomachs were also removed to check for any toxins or poisons nothing was found And when the news made its rounds the rumors that Lizzie had done it because she was home seemed inconceivable How could a woman be capable of something so brutal and gruesome not to mention Interesting as physically demanding as this and this is something that we see In the portrayal of this story and it is true people especially Police and men but they were like a woman could do this. They were like no way is a woman strong enough Which is interesting because I felt like that stigma for the most part now is kind of gone away I think a woman that can be a boy or a girl that killed somebody could definitely do 11 hatchet wounds to the face Oh 100% 40 that's a lot but 11 yeah, uh, I think that is definitely makes sense I guess that it was a hatchet probably it's easier

42:11But police were like there's no way a woman could even Throw a hatchet like that 11 times interesting also like I said Lizzie was a Sunday school teacher a wealthy well-educated young woman who lived comfortably on Her father's money What motive did she even have for attacking her parents so violently like this is a very violent personal Brittle attack. It just didn't seem right and Lizzie seemingly had an excuse for all of it When the pharmacist came forward saying well, she did try to buy poison from me the day before Lizzie was like no, it was just to clean my coat When asked why she didn't find Mrs. Borden right away. She was like I assume she had already left the house This was despite the fact that no note mentioning a sick friend was ever found at the crime scene that story just came from Lizzie alone Now when Bridget has obviously the maid was also there so she gets Interrogated him curious what she says because she had a banner the whole time

43:14She claims she was Washing the windows outside. Oh, okay, you but you Listen, okay, she says she came in from washing the windows and she heard a wicked laugh in the other room Around the time of Mrs. Borden's supposed a death which again a wicked this is just one of those details from the past that I'm like I don't know how many people would wickedly laugh while acts like hatching someone to death, but back then it seems like that would be Oh, this is what we've heard of course she would Wickedly laugh while killing her stepmother. You know what I mean like I just find it feels too sensationalized to be true I just find it really hard to believe that You're acting somebody that too death and you're not well. No, you're not hearing that outside right Right like get out of here. There's just now. There's no way no all she hears is the wicked Wicked which of the west and said the laugh was from Lizzie now

44:18Lizzie was like that couldn't have been true when you came in from washing the windows I wasn't even upstairs. I was outside as well So you did not hear that laugh come from me and then three days after the murders Lizzie was caught by her friend Alice Russell her friend from down the street trying to burn a blue corduroy dress in the her kitchen oven Come Alice is like Lizzie why are you burning clothes in your kitchen oven She says I got paint on the blue corduroy dress. It's permanently ruined. I'm just getting rid of it Now there were some other suspects considered along the way like the other members of the household staff including Bridget Sullivan who Was reportedly the only one home alone with Lizzie during the time of the murders But she actually was reportedly seen washing the family windows outside the house really okay Neighbors and people walking that she really like no she was outside washing windows Maybe she really was washing windows and didn't hear anything. I just kind of surprises me

45:20There was also uncle John Morse who arrived home about 45 minutes after the bodies were found Remember he went visited the niece apparently He comes home the timing of his arrival the day before also caused suspicion because He was staying in the exact guest room where Abby Borden was killed. Why was she even in his room However, John provided the police with a solid alibi including the badge numbers of the horse car conductors Who drove him to and from his other family's house that day Emma the oldest sister was also considered for a moment But again, she had a pretty solid alibi at her friend's house about 15 miles away in Fairhaven But there's also one other person William Borden Apparently and this isn't brought up in the series one of Andrew's Sons that he had out of wedlock may have come back to the house To take revenge on the family after being financially cut off. So he had a son with someone else

46:24They said that strange son came back and killed his father And his father's wife This theory does kind of seem to be maybe another work of historical fiction though His name never actually appears in any police records at the time. So it's like was it just this made up story of this You know Son that was an accident that came back for revenge Yeah, I mean I'll obviously haven't heard the entire case yet, but my mind Lizzie didn't like the mom She wanted money I think she killed them for money and I do kind of think the Brother the mom's the dead mom's brother is involved uncle John to an extent of hey Lizzie you should kill them And then we can share all this money But let's hear how this keeps going. Oh, so it was like a conspiracy. Yeah, that's coming. I think and he's there to help like for sure

47:26Yeah, you know, I'll show up 45 minutes after the murder handle the police. Uh-huh. Okay So After Looking at everything Lizzie bored and become suspect number one mainly because her story had been changing You know she was caught burning the clothes in the oven she did have motive She really really hated Her parents at the time they were they were not getting along So just five days after the murders she began testifying at a police inquest and once she gets to This Basically interrogation was police Her stories change again. Oh I hate it. I'm my hate when stories change bugs me. I don't mind it when it's like modern day and there's recorded evidence of it true, but when it's been passed through like folklore and history and like is it did it? Did it really? So first she says she thought Abby had left now. She's like actually I didn't think

48:30Mrs. Borden had left I thought she was upstairs sowing when I came in previously She said she actually saw Abby leave the house heard the front door lock And then she said no, I actually heard my stepmom come home and go upstairs Also, that would mean the front door was locked so how did someone else get in the house? She also then says at one point that when her father came home from work that day she greeted him And took off his boots for him and then she's like no, I didn't even know my father had come home for more I didn't interact with him at all that morning because I was outside the whole time Even the descriptions of her outfit that day were inconsistent like what she had been wearing it was a mess But the family doctor testified on her behalf. He admitted He had given Lizzie a double dose of morphine that morning after the murders to help her calm down help her sleep And it probably caused a lot of confusion for her that day because first she stumbles upon

49:32her parents murders and then he feeds her full of morphine But one thing stayed consistent for Lizzie throughout the entire thing She insists I had no motive To kill my stepmother or father which is quite literally the opposite of what everyone else in her life is saying But she claimed she and Abby were quite cordial by the time of the murders And they had very kindly feelings for one another and her sister Emma Comes in and says no, this is true like they didn't hate each other They had kind of grown up they had gotten over their beef a little bit, but the judge doesn't buy it And on August 11th one week after the murders he issues a warrant for Lizzie's arrest And he has her catered off to jail Unlike the Netflix series she doesn't get a cushy one bedroom In a boarding house with a desk and a fully made bed

50:34Along with meals from the local hotel for her they put that in the show Yeah, I think trying to play it to like the societal status at the time I think there's always reasons that they fictionally make things up Sure, I mean a lot of the reasons like people don't realize it's it keeps people watching And people might get annoyed or upset, but it's like yeah, you actually might have turned that off like 30 minutes ago If it wasn't the way it is one also it is a fiction. I mean Yes, they're very upfront that they are taking a real it's based on real life events But they are making a fictional series about it And again, I do feel like a lot of the fictional things they put in are to try and stress Other points in the case like Well, she was high society So she wouldn't have went to normal gel. So this isn't actually a normal case at all You know what I mean? She Was sent to a tiny nine by seven foot gel cell. Okay, where she spent the next nine months Waiting for trial being put on trial for murdering her parents. Okay

51:35She was charged with first degree murder. This was shocking Shocking to the town and if she was found guilty She would be facing the death penalty. I'm just like who else would have been how to have been her I so I don't know if you're gonna throw in a something crazy, but in my mind is like guys It's definitely her if she gets convicted The authorities are saying we are going to hang her come With that Lizzie's case moves beyond her local town and starts making national headlines and surprisingly gained her plenty of support a lot of women's groups started rallying around her. Remember she did a lot of volunteer work for women I get that, but if you killed someone I don't want to hear it With her father's Money that is now left in her name By the way, because her parents did get all the money with her father's money. She buys the best lawyers a girl can find Including a former governor of Massachusetts and Boston's most prominent defense attorney now nowadays

52:37You're on trial for killing someone you probably wouldn't inherit their money to be able to pay for your defense I think that there are rules. Yes, there are state by state vary, but for that But no she was allowed to do and she gets a former governor and the most prominent defense attorney good for her and When it came time for her trial on June 7th 1893 the evidence at this point seemed to also be on her side as well Or what you could consider evidence back then because like I said, they didn't even collect the men'sies rags A Harvard chemist testified there was no blood found on two hatchets or any other weapons retrieved from the family basement Lizzie also reportedly turned over a dress that she claimed to be wearing the day of the murders mind you she changed In her story to story what she was wearing But she does end up turning the dress over to evidence and they find only a tiny spot of blood which she found the bodies So Lizzie did not take the stand at her own trial her attorneys did the work for her

53:40They painted her to the jury as a well-bred woman saying she's practically a nun She's wealthy she was raised in a good family she did all this volunteer work. She's not even married She could never have committed a crime as vicious as this like how does a woman who teaches Sunday school brutally hatchet her parents to death Now a jury mind you that was exclusively composed of white Middle-topper class men because this was the standard at the time for juries which again Kind of benefits her to be honest. Well, because they didn't think she could physically do it either Yeah, I mean I feel like it's something that is pretty apparent now, but I mean it It still happens to an extent like how could that person do that like there's no way that that person did that And it's like you truly just never know somebody. Yeah, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter who you are But that's our bias. Yes of so many biases

54:42Again women and foreign-born immigrants weren't allowed to sit on juries at this time So that basically leaves one type of person The prosecution however tried to convince this jury that Lizzie was capable of this crime And all it took was her extreme Loathing of her stepmother combined with a recent threat of Andrews to change the will into Abby's favor during their argument about money because remember The daughters had been arguing about money apparently Andrew Through word of mouth Threatened to change the will into Abby's favor the stepmother which means that you would then also have to get rid of the stepmother to inherit Um bam the prosecutions like we have a motive But the defense argued for reasonable doubt Just a year before the deaths the boarding home had actually been burglarized the barn had been broken into twice They said it was just as possible that it was some unknown assailant who was caught mid robbery like there have been unknown people wandering into this house before

55:46If we're looking at history it could have happened again Although I will say in this case there were no signs of forced entry The jury heard testimony from Bridget Uncle John the dressmaker who recalled the comments Lizzie was making about her quote mean good for nothing stepmother because they're trying to Put on trial that she hated her And her best friend Alice Russell who does get up and say I caught her burning address Okay, the defense Brought on witnesses like Emma Borden the oldest who claimed she was the one who told Lizzie to burn the dress with paint on it She's like it just was ruined. I told her to burn it uh along with other information that just helped her sister out and a few others Who reported seeing strangers lurking around the board and property at the time of the murder In the end each side took over four hours to give their closing statements Which is kind of funny because that's like not a lot a lot today But for a trial back then where trials could have just lasted one day it is a lot

56:48The jury had their answer almost immediately again unheard of but Okay, not back then After only an hour They came back to say Lizzie Borden Was not guilty. Okay. She physically couldn't have done this. Okay. She emotionally couldn't have done this That's crazy because I mean I get it. I get it. It's a complete different. It's different But also there is no hard evidence. They didn't find a murder weapon The the maid was home like you said she didn't hear anything. They find that hatchet Yeah, but there was no blood on it. They just assumed that was the murder weapon. That's like How evidence went back in the day. Yeah, I mean, I guess if you do look at it even now like if you don't find a murder weapon There's no eyewitness accounts. No eyewitness accounts. There's probably a pretty good chance that person gets off anyways I'm not saying they checked but they didn't check her for defensive wounds. They didn't hurt. Yeah check her for offensive wounds. I guess I should say They didn't check her fingernails to see if there was blood. They didn't check her clothing that day to see if there was blood

57:54So I mean they didn't check but they also yeah, there was no evidence found. How do you act? Hatch it whatever somebody a dozen times and well their theory is that she did the mom first cleaned up Did the dad cleaned up and then put on the show of finding the body screaming to bridge it But I will say acting your parents to death with your house made just Innocently washing the windows outside. Yeah, that's what I'm saying that part still is bugging me because maybe not in that day Maybe not in that day and age. Maybe it was well if she comes in all after her I mean, I hear a kid screaming outside my house. Yeah, like there's no way you're acting somebody You're stabbing whatever somebody killing somebody and no one's hearing anything especially because we already know that this house didn't have Oh insulation and there was no insulation in that house It depends. I'd like to look at their house because if the house could be made of like all brick like they are in like Europe for example And then yeah, it would be insulated better like it would be you put it here through brick

58:57No, I'm just saying it would be better insulation I'm just saying how soundproof I mean houses were houses were built a little bit differently Maybe even better than nowadays to be honest. I mean yeah like a lot of the homes and You're open stuff or just like wooden They are more stable. It's like they're made from break-in concrete. So they're insulated differently anyways anyways After the trial Lizzie and Emma pulled their inheritance And bought a bigger mansion in Fall River. Oh my god It that was that was the mansion they thought their dad should have bought crazy. So Lizzie just got away with murder I'll allegedly there They spend the next 12 years of their life living together these two sisters. They don't get married They live off their fathers inheritance in a mansion which like I can't blame them. It was a little weird for the time. So Emma who was a bit more conservative and introverted kind of kept to herself but Lizzie after Getting off at trial she begins to kind of relish in her new fame

59:57She enjoyed her new independence her wealth She started buying a lot of expensive things she got in with a group of actors throwing giant over the top parties at her new house In fact, if you watched the Netflix series this is when she met that actress that she meets in the series Not before the murders so no But apparently The differences in their new lifestyles led to a really tense rift between the sisters And you know what this kind of reminds me of interestingly enough Is in the other Netflix series about the Menendez brothers. Yeah, it's very similar where after the murders They get a lot of money. They start you know living a more lavish lifestyle as two young kids would do But one of the brothers kind of begins to crack and that's almost how it feels like According to sources Emma starts to fill their new lifestyle leads to a rift between the sisters so much so that in 1905 Emma packs her things and moves out of the mansion

1:01:00After an argument with Lizzie reportedly the sisters never spoke or saw each other Ever again interesting after that and while Lizzie might have been accepted by the more liberal Theater crowd the community She was once a respected part of really shut her out wow after this trial The townspeople of fall river Including her old church crowd were like you might have been found innocent But this is weird you're kind of a pariah Which is why she ends up changing her name to Lizbeth to try and reinvent herself get away from Lizzie It's like Ashley or something It never really worked Lizzie could not get away from the crime she was accused of And eventually became more and more reclusive Came to a point that she barely left her home at all And in 1926 Lizzie became really sick and had to get her gallbladder removed and never improved That's ironic. Yeah, she never improved from this so she finally died at home On June 1st 1927 which isn't gonna happen to me because it's not 1927

1:02:04The reason we're saying at the ironic is because Payton has to get her gallbladder removed Yeah, but it's a safer surgery now. She was 66 years old Emma died 9 days later Her older sister died 9 days after her While living in a nursing home in New Hampshire at the age of 76 They were buried side by side in a family plot in fall river Right next to their father their stepmother and their mother Oh my gosh, it's ironic Before her death Lizzie made sure her tombstone red Lizbeth andrews boarded in so her new name So that is basically the end of the overall story I'm gonna do just a little quick synopsis On the Netflix show if you haven't watched it you can just end here if you have this is just like a fun little add in If you watch Netflix series you're probably starting to realize there were a lot of creative liberties taken A lot of it hinges on the urban legends surrounding Lizzie and the rumors

1:03:05Which makes for good entertainment but not really historical accuracy. So let's talk about the big ones Starting with the elephant in the room that isn't even really a part of the real story but was a huge part Of the Netflix story Did Lizzie Borden actually have a lesbian affair with Bridget the maid And did they do this together? Oh, that was one of the things That's one of the big motives is Bridget taught her how to kill and said let's kill and take your parents money and run away together Oh my gosh, okay The answer is there is no evidence Well, because Bridget didn't it's not like Bridget lived with her afterwards or anything So it's I don't know if I believe that one there was no evidence that this was the case apparently there were some rumors circulating Later in Lizzie's life that she might be gay because she never got married But there is zero indication that she ever had a relationship with Bridget the maid There's also zero indication that Bridget the maid was involved with the murders remember she has an alibi She was seen outside of the house by multiple people watching windows. Okay

1:04:08No charges wherever brought against her for being part of the plan And there's also the entire story about the neighbor Bertha Manchester Who in the series borrowed Bridget from the family for a few days and assaulted her Later in the show Lizzie ends up killing Bertha First before killing her parents in defense of Bridget are there just killing random people? Yeah, there is multiple murders in the series Okay, in real life Bertha Manchester did exist But her murder took place nearly 10 months after the board ins and Lizzie was already sitting in jail So that actually has nothing to do with her They caught the man Or reportedly they caught the man And then we have the Eileen warnos of it all which is a Female serial killer girl has no idea who that is no She is brought into the Netflix story and portrayed Because later on like lots later on in the 80s

1:05:09She is very much inspired by Lizzie boredon in the Netflix series this she's killing men And she's so inspired by Lizzie boredon who stood up to her evil parents and killed them None of this is true There's no historical evidence that she was ever obsessed with Lizzie boredon There's no records that she talked about her at all during her life And she did not go to the Lizzie boredon house and have a ghost experience with Lizzie boredon because It didn't become a bed and breakfast until 96 and Warnos was already convicted and serving her sentence at the time, but it did become a bed and breakfast Okay The home where the hunters happened As I mentioned there was also no plan to poison the board ins with oysters That came out of nowhere They were pigeons not doves and the doves died at the hands of Andrew allegedly not Abby There again was no lesbian love affair We actually don't really know what happened to Bridget except that she settled down and got married After the trial

1:06:10The murder weapon wasn't believed to be an axe. It was believed to be a hatchet But the biggest thing the show might have exaggerated or got wrong entirely Which it's not just a show it's history in general Was making Abby the ultimate villain the evil stepmother while they do not seem to have a great relationship It wasn't her perpetual torture of Lizzie that caused Lizzie to then one day pick up a hatchet and kill them It was a lot more likely to be money And the reason I think it might have been money. I mean look what happens after they were dead This lavish spending lavish spending party mm-hmm And it was done strategically Some accounts say she killed Abby first because if she had killed Andrew first part of his estate would have been given Over to Abby's family But if Abby died before Andrew she and Emma the daughters would inherit it all which is exactly what ended up happening There are also whispers that Lizzie was abused physically and sexually but by her father not by Abby

1:07:15There's not much evidence to support this but papers at the time sort of Initiated it which that one's hard because I mean that's something that could very well be true Yes, I mean it's obviously now still hidden I back then it was even more hidden Yeah, I will say historians of the case do later They do bring it up because it was written in local newspapers at the time But they don't bring it up as fact they bring it up as this was brought up in papers and we don't know why okay Did this come from what would the sources whatever whatever whatever interesting? I think the biggest thing was that And this happens a lot in When we see fictionalized series about killings is we tend to sometimes see justification of the murder like we make the stepmom the villain So villainous and so cruel and so evil. You're almost rooting for her to be dead. Oh, I mean that happens and yeah happens a little time all the time

1:08:16And it kind of seems like Not just here but in this story in general Lizzie has kind of been made out to be a hero that her parents were villains like her dad wouldn't give her any money and her stepmom was mean and her and her sister were locked in this house as adults and couldn't get married because the father never approved of anyone and like there's always some Oh, she broke free. She killed her parents and broke free But as we know there is no heroism in cold blooded murder no matter what events get us there So the next time you hear Lizzie's story or even consider dressing up as her for Halloween. Oh don't do that Think about the real Lizzie boarden the truth behind this story the alleged accusations This case is still unsolved because she was found not guilty at trial no one actually According to the law Has down who killed her parents

1:09:18Sometimes those we don't think are capable of being a monster can be the scariest most dangerous Monsters of all and that is the real Case of Lizzie boarden and the murder of her parents Andrew and Abby Interesting because I mean I haven't seen that flick show so I'm sure it would sway me and like a different direction Then what you just told me I think it's different enough. It wouldn't okay Some I will say like for the Menendez version of monsters which is the same Series okay, that was like a 180 Swade a lot of people you had a lot It was hard They were really pushing empathy which is also happens in real life with that case So the lines were a lot more blurred and gray I think in this portrayal it's so fictionalized that it doesn't even like blur the lines really interesting okay But if you disagree with that you watched it and you disagree please let me know yeah All right you guys that was our episode for today

1:10:21Thank you guys so much for listening and we will see you next time with another one. I love it. I hate it. Goodbye You know that feeling when too many things fall through the cracks Monday.com was built for that gap the AI work platform where people and agents work Side by side to deliver more together create your first Monday agent today at Monday.com