6523 Why We Self-Attack! CALL IN SHOW

0:00What's up, sir? Not too much, not too much. Just enjoying being back home from a little time on the road. And he could have chanted this morning. Awesome. I appreciate it. OK, so I mean, it was a pretty brief message, but you get to dive in and hear what you have to say. Sure. I mean, there are some headphones in it. All right. So basically, I was listening to one of your calling shows and kind of like sparked a memory of something I had. And I've talked to you a couple of times. So I was like, man, I think maybe it would help me get some clarity if I could. I don't think I've ever talked about any of the things the events before maybe ever.

1:00So I was like related to, I guess, like being a child and having like sexual things being touched and things like that. I'm sorry to hear about that. So tell me what you recall. I actually remembered like another. There's like, I guess two things. One was like, is when I was a little older, I was maybe like seven or something, give or take. And I was out like my grandma's house. And we used to like get together with our cousins. It was basically like, my cousins' family. There was like a bunch of kids. So it's like older them and their kids, my uncle, my aunt. And then there's us, our family, and then my grandparents. So it's like, and yeah, so we used to like, basically like sprawl out and in my like grandma's living room

2:05or whatever when we would sleep. And so we'd be like, way to cross the floor. There'd be like, you know, people would have sleeping bags, little like mattress things or whatever. And so I was like sleeping next to my cousin. And I was like, just like everyone was just like going to bed. And on this, it just happened like one time. And I was like laying down. I'm like in my bed, laying down, face down. And he like pulled my pants down a little bit. And like, I don't know, like he used to shoot about two years older. So I was like seven, he was nine. So he was like a child too. And like, I don't know if he even knew what like sex was, but yeah, basically I just like laid there. I kind of felt like I never confronted him.

3:05I never like, that stopped or anything. I think I just like laid there basically and was like, I was like very uncomfortable and like I didn't like it. I didn't want that. And but yeah, I liked it. I didn't speak up. I was like just like laying there and sorry. I just so yeah, how far did it go? We're having a little connection issue here. Let's see if I can. How can you hear me? Yes. Yeah, I just how far did it go? Basically that like it really didn't go I guess too far is basically that like he like pulled my pants down. Maybe like halfway down my butt or something and just like, you know, I don't think he was like touching himself or anything like that. I don't even know if he knew what that was, but yeah, so I was just kind of like laid there silent. And then then didn't like talk about it and it like never made an event of it.

4:09Sorry, I just want to make sure I understand. So he pulled your pants down a little and that was it. Yep, that was it. Okay, so sorry, go ahead. Yeah, and then the other time, I think maybe this is, well, I guess I think they're both significant, but the other time was like I was I was younger. I think I was maybe like five or six or something. Um, maybe like four or five, honestly, maybe like four or five, but I struggle to remember like who it was in like the specifics. Honestly, I like, I'm open to remembering, but I really just don't remember. I think it was definitely like someone older, like maybe a couple years older, but yeah, I was like another little boy. And I guess we we like we're playing or whatever we found like a private, we were in a private space. So like upstairs away from parents and stuff.

5:13And then, um, yeah, like kind of like a similar thing. I don't think either of us probably knew like what sex was or like how it really works. Like, but there was like, I guess maybe some curiosity and like sexual energy that was basically just like, you know, exploring each other's bodies like touching, literally just like touching each other's butts or something like that. But then my mom like walked in on us. And then yeah, kind of like things like broken up and I, uh, like it was never like talked about again. It was kind of like like literally just like never talked about again. I don't think my dad ever found out. I was just kind of like whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. And then also just like laid all out. Um, I don't know. Honestly, I thought about like not even last night. I was like maybe I should cancel the call because I don't really feel like this is at I was I don't feel like it's

6:18like super pressing to be to be totally frank. Like I feel like some of the past times I've called you. I was like, like it was like an immediate need. And here I'm more just like curious as far as like maybe like getting some more clarity on me. See you like how maybe, um, I don't know, maybe just more clarity. Um, but yeah, then I know like when I was a child as well, like I did, I don't know, like I remember like playing with my friend and his sister. And I definitely like grope to his sister as like a seven year old or something. She was maybe like five years old. So his like little sister and no like pants off or anything, but just like touching people when they don't like it wasn't like a mutual thing. I like just like grabbed her pants or whatever. And um, I guess like the main reason the main question was like

7:25is I feel like I can kind of just maybe I'm open to the idea of like confronting some of these things that have happened in the past, but I'm also like open to the idea of just like like I don't have these people's phone numbers. I don't I feel like maybe it might be more peaceful and like to not confront it obviously. I guess, but tell me out, drop in there, Steve. Okay. So you saw someone's butt. They saw yours. The guy pulled you pants down a little and you grabbed at a little girl's private and that that's it, right? That's it. Okay. So tell me what it means to you. I guess like I was a virgin. So I was like 26 years old, 27 years old. I've always like had a self image of being like kind of damaged or like

8:28um, not being confident in like my um, my masculinity or like my sexuality, sexuality I suppose. Um, I think some of that maybe has like definitely improved over the last few years, um, but um, I was also like dealing with other stuff in the past like drug addiction and stuff. So like just in general, my confidence was like, and I was like watching born and my whole self image was just like kind of shit, I suppose. Um, so um, but yeah, and what it means to me is like, I don't know, maybe it's like somewhat innocent curiosity, but it's also like some of it I think was definitely wrong. Like you know, just grab people and I'm sorry, you were the girl was five and you were held.

9:32Maybe seven, okay. Maybe eights, like maybe there's a three year gap. And do you think that a seven or eight year old who's being raised very badly has some sort of foundational moral responsibility. Some, I mean you said some level of course, I think yeah, okay. So did you know that what you were doing at the time was wrong? I think so. I'm not sure which way by that. I think so. Yeah, like I and yeah, I did. I'd, but I like wanted to do it. Okay. So you grabbed at her nether regions and then you let go. Yeah. Okay. And so it was just an instant, right? Pretty much. Yeah. Okay. So this is not a gree just right? I mean, not serious, not that serious. No, it's cool. I don't know. It's not like preferable behavior, I suppose, but it's not like raping someone I could see that.

10:39Okay. So a cousin pulled down your pants and did nothing, didn't touch you, didn't touch himself. You were exploring another boy's butt. He was exploring your butt or figuring out all of that stuff. And then you once grabbed very briefly at a girl's tether regions and that was it, right? Yeah. Okay. So again, tell me what this all means to you because I mean, it's fine that you book the call. There's a problem that you book the call because it's a very interesting topic. But tell me what this means to you. Um, I don't know. Like I said, like I thought about maybe just, I don't know. I think I think I was like, I don't need to, like I don't need to call. Like I feel like maybe I didn't ask you what you need to call. I said, it's fine to call. So let's get what does it? If you get a call, then don't tell me whether you need to call or not, because you've called. So now let's talk about it. So what does it mean to you? Uh, it just means like it's just like not, it's just like not ideal like I think.

11:43Okay, ideal is not a standard. Fair. I mean, it is, it's what you ate yesterday. Ideal. Ideal. Ideal. Ideal. The ideal amount of exercise that you do. The ideal amount of work that you do. The idea. Did you have ideal sleep? Like ideal is not a standard, right? We can't have that. I mean, that's better and worse. I get that. But we can't have ideal. Especially for a seven year old who's being raised badly. Okay. Okay. So let's. Sorry. Just want to liberate you from this to you. Right. So let's just tell me what it means to you. And it's fine that you're honest with the ideal. But, but please go. Do not have that as a standard. All right. I appreciate it. Um, like it means if I'm being just like totally honest as far as like what my self talk is and the kind of feel about it. It's like I. These are things that happen in the past that are like that damaged me or that are like the reason that I'm not quote unquote the ideal or like why I'm not.

12:48Like a alpha male just like fully confident and like this is why I have like some. Like imperfection and my confidence and. Okay. So these three incidents that you're talking about when you were very young and badly raised. These are the reason why you don't have a confidence or you're not my alpha. And I'm just I'm not I'm not marking or anything like that. I'm genuinely just just trying to understand what that means to you. Okay. Yeah. I mean, when you say it that way it's. It sounds ridiculous. No, no, I'm genuinely I want it doesn't sound ridiculous to you, which is why you called and it's this is a great call. I'm glad you called. Yeah. I'm glad you called. Yeah. Because this is very different. You know, honestly, this is hugely different from from what I normally do because what I normally do is people tell me terrible things and laugh about them. Right. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

13:50And I'm just like excuses for terrible things and this is sort of the this is an unor a reversal card for a call. Right. Okay. Which is I'm bracing myself for like some sort of, you know, sold sold into some sort of ship to buy in a barrel kind of sex slavery. And then it seems to me within within the realm of normal childhood physical curiosity. Again, I'm not an expert. But, you know, I've seen and heard. You know, a lot of things. Over the years. Yeah. And we'll sort of get into that in a bit. But this is a nice change. Is that? Okay. Where I'm going to say to somebody not it's more serious than you think, but it's less serious than you think, which is kind of nice. It's kind of a nice change for me. So I appreciate the call. And I think it's a great. It's a great topic. And, you know, we'll dig in if that's all right with you and and see if we can come to some sort of conclusion about the stuff that is going to hopefully lift away from your shoulders.

14:52Okay. I'm definitely down. I want to add like, I guess a little extra context. I don't think it's going to like shift anything about what you just said. It's, but it's maybe something that might be of interest to you when you're considering things. I'd say also like I've dealt with. I've never had like a sex or like done anything like that. But I've had like same sex curiosity, I suppose, or like attraction. And it's kind of like, rare, I suppose, but yeah, I don't know. I guess I feel like it's definitely not something like like I want kids. I really like as far as like my highest self, what I value. It's like kids, family, you know, career, health, all the good stuff. And I don't like see that as a part of my highest path and stuff. So I guess I just like feel some like I don't really like talk about this with my friends like being attracted to dudes, you know, so like,

16:06I said, people talk about it with a girlfriend. Yeah, or girlfriend, of course, I mean, there's nothing wrong with, of course, this is anonymous, right? But there's nothing wrong with Tations, things to the grave. That's totally fine. We don't have to share that's why everyone, right? Yeah, of course, yeah, of course, makes sense. Okay. All right. So tell me more about what these three incidents mean to you. Oh my goodness, you're pushing more. Okay. I feel like it's, I feel shameful about it. I feel like it's like, I don't know, you just like hear about sexually like traumatic things and like how it affects people. I'm just, I kind of like view it through that lens where it's like at five years old unwelcome.

17:07Unwelcome touches, especially like followed by the fact that like if that would have happened for like the cousin, pulling my pants down and like, okay, but that was not touching if I understand this correctly. It was like pulling my pants down halfway and then like, yeah, like touching for like a couple minutes. I was just playing there. No, touch just touching like my, my butt, like my skin or whatever. Okay. So you put that in your pants and touched it, but for a couple minutes. Yeah. Okay. A couple minutes. Just like, all right. And then there was the wrestling with the girl and then there was the other boy that that was mutual, right? I'd say, yeah. Okay. Got it. Got it. Okay. All right. So, so go on with what it means to you. Yeah.

18:09Like I kind of like didn't voice how I felt. So like it means that I, I don't know, I think maybe even more damaging than not like then being touched in an unwelcome way is like knowing you don't like it and you want it to stop, but you don't feel. Strong enough to like say stop. Like you just like play there. Okay. So that's interesting. Sorry to interrupt. So you don't feel strong enough. So for you, one of the things, if I understand this correctly, is it makes you feel weak. Yeah. Okay. So why let's say that you were weak at this time when you were very little and a guy touched your butt. Why would you weak? If you will, let's say you will weak, why would you weak?

19:11Why was I weak because like because someone who's like strong has even even if like even if you get like it's not like I was going to die. I need you to dig into your emotions here because this skating around on the surface and maybe this and maybe that and maybe the other is just a form of dissociation. So yeah, why would you weak? Is it some personal character floor? Are you just a Freddy cat? Why would you weak if we say you will weak? Why? Did you have the choice to be strong and you refused to in other words, were you thinking of the time. Why this is an egregious in position on my personal space, I'm having a me to moment and I need to stand up and call it out and like were you having those kinds of thoughts and decided not to. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Not not to like have a me to a moment for us that like just like push someone off you like stop.

20:16Something as simple as that. Okay. Now let's play this out right. And sorry you were how old six six six six. Okay. So let's say you push him off and you say stop touching my butt or I'm going to tell. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Okay. So let's play this out and he was a little older. Is that right? Yes. He was younger too. He was maybe a year or two older. Also bigger like in general. Okay. Bigger person. Okay. So let's say that. You say to him stop touching my butt or I'm going to tell. Right. So how would he react and respond over time. So he's a guy now of course to be accused of gay play for boys is what good or bad. It's definitely not good. Definitely not good right right definitely not good. It could absolutely destroy his reputation. Yeah. Right. Right. And also if he's grabbing your butt.

21:21Sorry. If he's if he's grabbing your penis because of something untoward that's happening to him in his home. Then it's extremely destabilizing right because he's going to be concerned. And also if he if you resist his grabbing then whoever's grabbing him if someone is grabbing him and it seems likely that they were this wouldn't come out of nowhere. Whoever's grabbing him will now sense his resistance and he's in danger. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh my god. You can resist this stuff. And then he will resist him. He will resist them. And that will escalate things for everyone. Right. Okay. So again, I'm just just just playing it out right. Just playing it out. So we'll call him. Give me a name that's not his name. Joe. Joe. Okay. So you say to Joe, get your hands off me. Right. Now, how does Joe experience that going forward? He experiences that with great terror and anger. Why? Because well, well, why? Right.

22:43Because you have now identified him as someone who's doing kind of gay play, right? Correct. And you at the age of six can in no way shape or form be counted on to keep that secret. Right. And then you are going to go home and you're going to say, how was the sleepover and say, Joe touched me. Yeah. Right. And then if you had decent parents, right. They would take their action. They talked to Joe's parents. They try to find out what was going on. Now Joe facing the complete destruction of his reputation and Joe's family with whatever secrets and horrors are going on in there are facing the exposure of all of that. So what might happen? Wow. Well, I don't want to get like, I mean, a lot of bad things. We don't know specifically, but Joe might say Joe might say this person. This kid is lying. He touched me. Okay. Yeah.

23:47Joe might preemptive like. So what happens is Joe might preemptively. Blame shift me. It's a blame shift you. And then what do you do? You don't have support of your parents. You don't this. You don't exactly. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Don't have the support of my parents. Possibly. Don't. I'm essentially just like a lone wolf who's like. And Joe being a slut. So yeah, Joe, Joe has an incentive to preemptively destroy your entire reputation. Joe also has an incentive to do you physical harm. Uh-huh. Hello. Yeah. Yeah. Got you. Okay. Sorry. Just do you physical harm. Right. And so if you resist and and what if what if there are other children who are awake. That's what I that's also a part of it because like my brother was right next to me.

24:47Okay. So what if there are other children who are awake and they hear you say, Joe, get your hands off my peepee. Yeah. What happens then? I know it's a technical thing, but it was my butt. Sorry, but my apologies. Okay. So yeah, sorry. Thank you for the correction. So you say Joe, stop. Stop grabbing my butt. Touching. Yeah. Right. Yeah. It would be I'm not sure you'd have the word fondling in your vocabulary at the age of six. I know I didn't. But if you say. And I'm I mean, I know it's kind of funny, but but there's obviously a really serious element. So if you say Joe, stop fondling my buttocks. Yeah. I believe my ass alone. And there are other kids awake. What's going to happen with Joe? That's going to be like a topic of conversation. And what's going to happen with Joe is like in that moment.

25:51Oh, what does Joe do if you say honestly, I think he would probably like I think he would probably just like bite his tongue and like just probably like. I know it. My thought is like honestly, he would take his hands back and like, you know, he'd probably struggle going to bed that night. So he'd be anxiously thinking about like, Oh, what's what is he going to tell us? Other kids heard it. He heard you heard you say that. Yeah. So what does he do in the moment? If other kids are awake. If they heard it. Yeah. And they hear you say Joe get your hands off my ass. Leave my ass alone. He's going to say, yeah, he's going to deny it. Oh, no, no, no, no, no, you're dreaming. You know, I never I'm touching you. You're crazy. Oh my god. Like and Joe is going to be freaking out.

26:52I agree. And then Joe is going to have a head on for you like Mount Vesuvius like a like a like a volcano. And you are going to be an enemy and he's going to work to destroy you. It seems like. And Joe is going to get a nickname. But not sure or whatever he's going to have, right? Oh, don't don't change don't change into a bathing suit with Joe around. Yeah. Don't bend over when Joe's around like honestly, this stuff is going to he's going to get the nickname. Right. But man. Dan and and and and and and and and and and and right. So he's going to get this thing that's going to stick to him. Yeah. Joe can't pick up two cantaloupes with slip without slipping his fingers between him. Right. So it's going to be a constant thing. He's going to be permanently humiliated. It is going to destroy his reputation. It is going to destroy his dating opportunities.

27:57Now Joe, of course, is not going to be the kind of guy who's going to say, well, technically I did bring this on myself. So I suppose I'll just have to take the consequences of my actions. No, what's Joe going to say? Uh, he's a liar. He is your fault. Yeah. It's your fault that I am now mocked and have nicknames. He's going to he's going to blame you. Now you and I, I think, are pretty grounded in reality. But it's really important to remember that there are the majority of people can talk themselves into and out of just about anything. And it's a really terrifying thing in the world. But it's, it's an important thing to remember. And I'm sure you do remember this. I don't know why I just, I'm sure you, I'm sure you do remember this. But just just to remind you and people listening to this later, like there are people who can talk themselves into and out of anything for emotionally defensive reasons.

29:05Like I've talked to women, well, I mean, you've heard this on the show, right? I talked to people who've made terrible mistakes and blame others. I've in men, my personal life, I've talked to women who are outraged that their boyfriend left them after they cheated because he should have been more loyal and he should have been more understanding and he this and he's that, right? People can talk themselves into just about anything. It's a fluid reality. And facts don't matter. Facts don't mean Lindsey Clancy, maybe she's sincerely believes, right? That there was this psychosis and she wasn't responsible because that's what she's bleeding in court. Maybe she believes it. People can talk themselves into almost anything with no recourse. Like I have people, you know, there are hundreds of people messaging me after my J. Diode debates and saying, knowledge doesn't come from, read, knowledge doesn't come from matter, reason doesn't come from matter and how are they doing it?

30:09They're using matter to type. And they're relying on sense evidence isn't, isn't valid. So they're typing this using matter and energy and using my end using my senses saying that you can't get reason from the senses. They're trying to reason with me using the senses and matter and energy saying you can't get reason for the senses matter and energy. And they just talked themselves and everybody's the same. You know, I can't believe that after 45 years of studying philosophy, you are making these basic, egregious errors, you know, just this is just girly manipulative shit. It's really, it's really tiresome and boring. And when you, I said, I post this morning, like if you're an original thinker, you really get a view of how everyone's the same. Like this algorithms with legs. I mean, we don't, we don't have to worry about AI. Let's just worry about I. So, and the reason I'm saying, people can talk themselves into just about anything.

31:10They can use matter and energy and the senses to communicate that reason can't come from matter and energy in the senses. And they don't even notice the contradiction. And even when the contradiction is pointed out, they don't care. And so people can talk themselves into just about anything and this defense of the truth doesn't really matter. And the stuff that I was deplatformed for was true, right? It was, it was true. It was facts. Doesn't matter because people have just talked themselves into a kind of hysteria. And so if you say, Joe, stop touching my butt. Oh, butt toucher, Joe's a butt toucher. Right. Everybody we're going to sleep with our butts away from Joe in a big round circle. So you can say to yourself, well, but he was touching my butt. And that won't matter to Joe because in his free flowing anxiety panic and memory is not a photograph.

32:19I'm not saying your memory is wrong, but memory is not a photograph. Memory is not a movie. You don't get to rewind it and check. So Joe will almost instantly convince himself that you're a liar, that you just hate him, that you're trying to destroy his reputation for no reason, that he was sleeping, that he was dreaming. You know, I just dreamed that I was sorting coconuts. And he's just going to flip into this victim hatred mentality that is going to allow him to unleash his rage on you in some fashion. Right. And the fact that he was touching your butt, it doesn't matter. He will throw everything into trying to harm you, destroy your reputation. You'll make a dangerous enemy. He's going to spread lies about you. And you say, no, no, but he was touching my butt. I mean, I wish I wish it mattered. And you know, hopefully in the future we can live in a world where it does matter.

33:19But and he's going to say, oh, no, this guy was touching my butt. I turned it clear to him. He realized the game was up. So then he pretended I was touching his butt. It's not there with the cameras in there, right? And you'll be like, but that's not what happened, but that doesn't matter. What matters? Who's the most aggressive in pushing the narrative? Sorry, go ahead. And that's probably he in the back of his head. That's like he knows whether he's like fully like thinking about it. Like he kind of knows that. And that's why he feels in the right to. Well, that was it feels like it's sorry. So it's interrupted. I apologize. I know I'm talking a lot, but there is no in the back of his head. Because people talk themselves. I mean, if you're rooted in reality, then you have an in the back of your head. And like we could say, but deep down, you know, in some reality process, he knows that he's wrong. Maybe that's true. Right. But it doesn't matter because it doesn't it doesn't have any traction or or what does happen is he says, I'm going to do whatever it takes to win at this moment.

34:31I agree. Yeah. I agree. I was winning the facts don't the facts are irrelevant to the winning. Now you can say it was yes, but it's a down blah blah blah. But the deep down doesn't matter because that's not what's animating on motivating him. So sorry, go ahead. No, that's a 100% agree with that 100% agree with that. What I was saying is like, that's why he knows he knows like there's no cameras. He knows that he can just completely flip the if I were to say something. He knows he could just be like, well, you didn't you touched my blood or what it like, you know, perhaps I was just trying to push you away because you were trying to grab my pee beers like and he's got to go to in terms of credibility, language skills, motivation. And he's got more friendships and he's more of a bully. And so he'll just get behind and push the living shit out of this narrative, right? 100% and his I'm not going to say details here, but I will say like overall our family versus like his family, his family is like much more socially connected much more like more Lee perceived as like, you know, amazing people and like our family was just considered kind of like normal Joe's who.

35:48You know, I guess like a little less, a little less status as far as like morality and social standing and things like that. Right. I mean, of course, I mean, you probably if you've been around for a while, you saw the whole like it took a couple of years for them to de-platform me right like step by step brick by brick, they built up the case, they built up the articles and so on. And I mean, none of it was true, but it didn't didn't matter right like I did rebuttals right like I don't want to sort of go over them here, but I pointed out how things they were talking about, which is not true. So, right. So it doesn't matter because the purpose was to win. Right. And so you would be making an enemy who had no regard for truth, integrity, honor, morality. And I hate to say it, but you would lose. You would lose. People who have some respect for truth are crippled in a world of pathological liars. In other words, people who don't care about the truth, they only care about winning.

36:59They only care about winning. And so it's like if you go into a fight and you're like Queen Spree rules, you know, no hitting below the belts, no this, no that you've got to have gloves on. If the person taps out, you've got to stop and then you go into someone who's just going to, you know, he's got a knife hidden in his hand, he's going to do whatever he's only going to pretend to follow the rules so that he lowers your guard. And so logically, this is like where you kind of, you're going to lose that fight. Sorry, go ahead. Right. I agree. I mean, I definitely agree. So this is where you kind of come in when you say when you talk about like, because your solution to that isn't necessarily like, OK, well, you're crippled in a world where you believe, like truth and reality. And then I have to believe in that's not what I said. So go ahead.

38:01It's not, you just have to have people around you who have the same commitment to truth. And you just have to be guarded. I'm not saying you're crippled. I don't want people to say that, OK, so you'd have truth means that you're crippled. Right. But you're added disadvantage. If you don't know that most people will say whatever advantageous bullshit comes into their head to win in the moment. And we've all seen or experienced this like, I mean, I've had people who say, you know, a tomato is red. And then like literally, I mean, 20 seconds later, you said a tomato is red. I never said that. Like, they just, there's sort of free floating anxious domination will. Yeah. Yeah. Just has them only concerned with winning in the moment. Yeah. And they have no focus on integrity. And listen, I mean, we can get all moral about this. But this was. These people generally had a higher survival value throughout human history than we did. So we can understand evolutionarily. Why?

39:04People who said, you know, this guy who's a rain doctor, like you just dances around and says he's going to bring the rain. He's just a lazy guy with a funny outfit like he can't control the rain. What are you talking about? Right. That's not how. How things work. That's not reality. Well, the guy who does the rain dance. Well, he would rather be doing a rain dance than planting seeds in the hot sun or chasing away birds from the crops. Like doing a rain dance is way more fun. And he wakes makes way more money and he gets way more checks. And so if you start to screw around with the rain dancing guy. He's going to if you are right. Yeah, he's going to. Yeah, yes. And so so the I mean, that's that's the world that we live in. And it's pretty clear online. And so the reason I'm sort of pointing all of this out is let's say you were able to go back in time.

40:04And you were able to say to your six year old self stand up and call him a butt toucher. Would you give your six year old self that advice, would you set all of that machinery in motion? No, I don't think so, man. I think no. Right. So you had an instinct at the time. Yeah. And that instinct is finally honed over the last million years. Why is it that so many children submit to butt touching? And I know it sounds kind of funny, but I mean, honestly, it wasn't it wasn't a greek just said it was not great, but it was not a greek just. So why do so many children submit to this kind of stuff? Because those who didn't didn't make it. Right. Yeah, I could see how like I if I didn't, I definitely would have faced his backlash. And then like genuinely would face the possibility of being ostracized by my own family, being called a liar.

41:08I'm feeling like nobody understood me, heard me, believed me. I would literally have it would be way more traumatic to experience all that. Oh, almost infinitely more traumatic hugely. Yeah. I mean, you've made a powerful enemy who doesn't care about truth of virtue, who will do anything to win and who has the highest possible motive to destroy you. What makes you think what makes you think like I don't disagree with you. Like I think what you're saying is you could disagree with being and I could be wrong. No, I don't. I don't because I think what like this is the most likely by far like it's way more likely that he would act as if it were just like warfare and he would not be interested in truth. Like I agree with you, but what like what's what makes you assume that about him because like he yeah, like what makes you assume that about him because I sorry, assume what that he would try to destroy you.

42:18Yeah, like that he would be one of the people who is like put on the defense. Yes, I'm a but toucher. Is he going to say that? I mean, would some people say that? No, do you think you think nobody? Yeah, I'm going to say that no kid and very few adults. If they're caught doing something both wrong and intensely publicly humiliating. Right. What's he going to say? Yeah, I love but like of course, but I can't lie. Right. So what is he? Is he going to say? Yeah, I'm I'm a total half gay but toucher. Yeah, he's right. He's right. None of you are safe from my wondering hands. Come on. What's he going to say that? It will definitely not definitely not. I'm one I'm thinking about like a medium situation. No, where it's like I don't necessarily just like put him on blast, but I just like push his hand away. And then it doesn't have to be a big. Okay. So that's fine. So you push your precious hand away. That's signaling that you know that it's wrong and you are going to resist him.

43:28So then what is his concern? That I'm going to tell that he's going to anxiously. Yeah, he's going to lay away anxiously just every day. Every day, he's doing on like what the hell? Yeah, what's going to happen? And like, and so he's and then he's probably maybe less overtly, but he's going to be like covertly my enemy and like making sure. So he's going to isolate you. Yeah, exactly. He's going to have to destroy your credibility. And he's going to have to isolate you. And again, the fact that he touched your butt doesn't mean anything to him. The only thing that matters is protecting his reputation. So he's going to know it's the same outcome really. Well, it may be a little bit less dramatic, which actually makes it tougher in a way because it's visible. Well, it's invisible. And nobody knows the course. Right. So if you jump up and say, get your hands off my butt, then all of the kids are the kids here. And then his blowback is kind of understood.

44:28But if it's a silent thing and that you don't tell anyone, then he's just going to work to undermine and isolate you agreed. Yeah. And you don't even like and other people don't even know the course. At least if he gets mad at you because you called him a butt toucher in public, people will know why he's mad at you. But if it's a silent thing at night and you just push him away, then he's going to work to undermine and isolate you. And people aren't going to have any provoking moment that they can identify the cause of. I agree. 100%. Okay. So again, like this is what it is to game it out. It's easy to put labels on ourselves. What I should have done this. I should have done that. It's like, okay. Okay. Let's let's see if you could go back in time that we have to because you we the great temptation is to think things are just a moment. In that moment, I should have jumped up and said, get your filthy paws up me your butt toucher. Right. And I should have called him out and I should have done this. And okay, like we all have this heroic thing like like a moment. Right. Right. And then we think that the courage of the cowardice is in that moment.

45:33Right. But there is no such thing as just a moment. There is a whole flow of things that happens afterwards. And unfortunately movies, you know, they're always telling you like this, just a moment you stand up and so on. Right. But they don't talk about the the blowback and the attacks and the undermining and the fact that if the Joe is aggressively undermining and attacking and working to ostracize you because you now hold the secret that he's terrified you're going to tell. So the first thing he's going to do is you know, he'll probably spread rumors that you're gay. And that way, if you talk about being touched in the butt, people will say, oh, well, that's because whatever, right. He's got these tendencies or something like that. Right. And again, it's hard to know exactly what he would do. But he would have and the other thing. So you said Joe's family was more successful than yours. Right.

46:36Definitely not financially, but I'd say they're very religious, like pastoral leader type people. So if they are religious leaders and they're raising a kid who's a butt toucher, then clearly they've got their secrets. They've got their manipulations, which means he's been raised in an environment of significant cover up and manipulation. And that means he speaks a language that you don't, which is yeah, successfully letting go of the truth and focus only focusing only on winning. Right narrative control. Yeah. Yeah. He's got all of those instincts because I mean, it's again, it's like he's been raised speaking Japanese. You haven't been raised speaking Japanese. So who's going to be better at explaining things to the cops? Well, he is because he's a native Japanese speaker. So you're also going up against a kid who is very well trained.

47:37And he's very well trained and well versed in the art of manipulation. I agree. And even if there's nothing untoward in the family, which seems hard to believe, but let's say that there is people don't become religious leaders because of a philosophical dedication to truth, reason and objectivity. Right. Right. So no, they were definitely like socially cunning. Maybe you could say or like sure. Yeah. So that reality is something that you would have a very powerful instinct for. And also, if you went up, I mean, there's no such thing as courage in the face of a superior force in the absence of allies. So courage like stupidity. Well, yeah, courage is isn't is having allies. I mean, you know, imagine if I don't know if you've seen Lord of the Rings, but or read the book, but in Lord of the Rings.

48:39Sorry, it's minor. It was the end. Erdogan says, you know, for Frodo and he starts running at the black gate, right? Right. Now imagine if everyone just stood there and watched him go. That'd be yeah, he'd die. Yeah, it would be like certain death. Yeah, he turned into like some sort of for a mere pencil holder, porcupine, right? So yeah. So he would die. Right. So the reason why it's moving is because his charge has everyone charge. Yeah, it's. So if nobody followed Erdogan towards the black gate, he would look like a suicidal fool. I mean, it's kind of a submission no matter what, but at least he's got allies, right? Right. So courage as a child is entirely dependent upon having allies first and foremost being who? Parents. Yeah, that's right. Parents extended family and someone. Right. Brother. Yeah.

49:45I mean, brother's trickier because brother takes care from parents. Right. Parents first, but hopefully family is old, but. Sure. I mean, I sort of horizontal is tough. Okay, because it's sort of like your parents teach you and your brother language. And if they teach you wrong, both you and your brother don't have the right words, right? Right. So really the question is, if I'm going to go into battle, do I have any allies? And if you don't have allies, the fear or the caution is perfectly sensible because an excess of courage is foolhardiness. I'm going to run alone at the black gate, right? Well, you're just going to die. Yeah. Right. So I assume that you had no staunch parental allies who would go, who would walk through hell with you in any conflict.

50:55Absolutely not. Right. Right. So let's go back in time again to when you were, when you were six. And this guy is grabbing your butt. Was there a more sensible and survivable and healthy path than the one you took? I'd say no. And I am glad like, I guess it didn't escalate because, yeah, if I would have, I could have gone like a lot worse, a lot worse. Right. I hate to say it, but if you don't have any allies, you got to submit. Yeah. Makes sense. So with regards to the girl, I mean, I don't really know what to say other than I remember being quite surprised when I first came to Canada. And I was first in Whitby then we came to Toronto and the school that I went to the first in the first break, the boys were,

51:57which chased this is grade six. The boys were chasing the girls and a grouping them. And I'd never seen that before. This certainly wasn't part of my British upbringing, but the girls were laughing. And I distinctly remember the boy who was doing most of the chasing and grouping was the most popular boy in school and the girls all liked him. Now, this obviously is older than the girl you're talking about, but I don't quite know what to make of all of that. That is just a fact that it put out there as potentially relevant with regards to the looking at was it your friend's butt? Is that right? Yeah, like when we were younger, maybe like four years old. Yeah, so curiosity about the body is natural as far as I'm concerned. So and because we evolved, we don't know what our butt looks like because there were mirrors, right? And we can't see, right?

53:03No, honestly, I mean, I know it sounds ridiculous. It's funny, but it's it's you know, if you're playing a video game and designing a character, you can rotate the character on the screen, right? We can't do that. We can't see what your butt looks like. Yeah. So curiosity, I mean, they call it playing doctor or curiosity about physicality is to me. It seems to me entirely natural at that age. I mean, you're in a body. You don't really understand the body. You don't understand what the body looks like for the most part because we're in the body. So we can only see the body looking down and we can't see our our backs. We can't see what's between our shoulder blades. We can't see our butts and so on. And so there is a curiosity about these things, a fascination about these things and so on. So what they used to call playing doctor is to me. I don't particularly find it predatory. I don't find it terrible. It's not particularly sexual, if at all. And so on. So that I don't find particularly unsettling at all. And to me, that's just kind of in the general realm of normal curiosity with children.

54:20I mean, children love to understand how nature works. They love lifting up rocks and seeing what's underneath. They love seeing what creatures they can catch little frogs and they love seeing the development. I mean, I remember I had a whole I dug a little pond in my neighborhood and got a whole bunch of tadpoles and threw them into frogs and all kinds of stuff like that. And so so there's just generally a rabbit. I was just talking about this in my debate analysis from yesterday. But there's a huge curiosity about how the world works. I mean, there has to be right because we have to understand how the world works. And that curiosity does not stop at the butt. Right. It doesn't stop at the butt. And so we are fascinated by how things work. We're fascinated how our bodies work. We're fascinated at exploring what our bodies can do and can't do and what's in the world and what's natural and what's artificial and what we can affect and what we can affect and so on. And to me, a curiosity about the body is just part of that general kind of semi-rabbit exploration phase that happens in toddlerhood, if that makes sense.

55:27It can be creepy if somebody is being, you know, obviously seriously mistreated in these horrible ways at home. But to me, the general curiosity that toddlers have about themselves, their bodies, the world as a whole is not creepy. It's just curiosity. So I don't find that particularly unusual and I don't find that negative at all. And you know, I mean, of course, you know, children should be taught you know, boundaries and things like that. I get all of that. And that makes good sense. And all of that. But yeah, you have to, you know, I've mentioned this before that when I was, I don't know, maybe 11 or 12, some guy invited a man in his, I don't know, whatever he was, he had a beard. I don't exactly know how old he was invited to be his place and then grabbed my penis and so on. And I got up and got out. And should I have gone, should I have not, should I have reported him, she's like, unfortunately, I mean, my mother was losing her mind at this point.

56:32And there's kind of an instinct that people have about who they can do this stuff to. And if you're unprotected, you have no allies. I mean, I guess I could have, you know, I could have phoned the cops and said what happened. But my mother was already losing her mind. And if she had had another thing on her plate, she could have gone off the rails completely and she'd already, you know, half tried to kill me once before. So, like, I just, I wouldn't go back and say, you should have done this that of the other, right? I mean, the way that I handled it, you know, I was, was, I think, okay. And I was just lucky, right? I was just lucky that this guy didn't escalate because I couldn't afford him off when I was 11 or 12. So I don't say this with any like, well, I got out and that makes me heroic. I was just lucky that the guy didn't, didn't escalate. So when I look back, I don't try to give myself labels of, you know, brave or, or cowardly or this. I try to sort of say, okay, let's say I did decide something different. What happens?

57:36Yeah. It's sort of like, like, sorry, it's a lot of the analogy and then I'll shut up. So it's kind of like the guy who's in the neighborhood and the mafia come by, right? And the mafia says, you know, we're going to need a thousand dollars a month for protection money, right? And everyone says, at least at some point in their head, well, I could just, I could just say no. You know, and I could just cut the brakes on this guy's, these guys cars and like, like, I'm just going to, I'm just going to, I'm going to fight back, right? And it's like, well, first of all, the mafia is way better at violence than you are because that's kind of their job, right? Secondly, even if you go to the police, the mafia, of course, have already thought about you going to the police and they probably already have paid people in the police who are going to tell them what happened and then they're going to come back and your, your story's going to be on fire or something like that, right? And so they've game did all out and you haven't and they've been doing it for hundreds of years and they've got all of that accumulated knowledge and you haven't.

58:36And the police won't really help you and and so on, right? So you just, you just game it out. You know, like when I was maybe 12 and and was with my friend of the woods and these, these two guys who were either 17 or 80, I think they were 18 because they were just in grade 13. And they said a bully just for an afternoon, nothing to egregious and so on. And they said if you if you tell the police, yeah, maybe we'll go to jail, but we'll come out of jail and we'll just kill you. Now, was that an idle threat or an empty threat? I don't know. I mean, but it's just not worth it. It's just not worth it. And so do I sit there and say, well, I should have reported these, these bullies who, you know, whatever, right? It's like, you know, I mean, I mean, I already knew that I'd been agressed against by my mother for many years in society didn't care. So why are they going to care about these bullies? And so I don't look back and say, well, I just I was cowardly. I should have taken on these. And again, this was my mother. I think she was she almost institutionalized at this point. So again, I'm I've got some burdens already, right, which is I'm going to have a place to live.

59:42So and again, this is probably why people are bullied. They generally will pick on the sons of single mothers quite a bit. I don't remember your family situation, but I assume you did not have an involved in supported father. And so you are chosen because they know that you have no allies. They know that you cannot fight back. They know that you have no support. They know that you are not loved and treasured. They know all of this. They have instincts. Just as you have an instinct to not provoke an endless enemy who's from a much more powerful family when you have no support from your own family at home. Right. You have that instinct. And he, you know, he had a half a room, he had a room for the boys whose butts he could grab and he grabbed yours. And that's because he knows because he's got an instinct. And the instincts of predation and exploitation have been finally honed again for millions of millions of years and they're pretty good, pretty accurate. Right.

1:00:42So the guy who grabbed at me when I was 11 or 12, he let me go. He didn't threaten me or anything like that because obviously he had instinct and a sense that I would not tell. And he was right because his, you know, he wasn't in jail. So obviously his instincts were very good. So this guy, obviously, I shouldn't say obviously I'm obviously he keeps saying obviously this guy almost certainly had preyed on a number of boys, maybe girls before. And so he had a lot of experience. I didn't he knew what he was doing. I did not. He had obviously the support of whatever creepy community. He was part of I didn't. And he was, you know, maybe 30 and I was 11 or 12. And so these sorts of things like really I'm not going to sit back and say, oh my gosh, you should have, you know, he prayed on other kids. I'm sure he did. I'm sure he did. And I hope that he was caught at some point. But as you know, most people who pray on children have hundreds of victims. And I think that's terrible. And I, you know, I mean, it would be great if people could be caught more, but you can't put the owners on 11 or 12 year old whose mother is mind is disintegrating in front of him to solve what society has refused to solve on its own.

1:02:02So sorry for the long speech. I hope that makes some kind of sense. But the problem is I think that you're a little bit in love with being a victim. And this can happen, right? This, this congenit and this is not a criticism. And it may not even be true. But if you gravitate towards calling yourself bad or wrong or creepy or cowardly and so on, then you have a default position where you're not curious about yourself. You label yourself an important thing is to be curious about yourself. Right. Like I could say, what kind of idiot gets himself deplatformed so badly blah blah blah blah. Or I can say, I wonder what I was up to. I've got pretty good instincts. You know, I've, I've, you know, survived fairly well in a contentious environment and done a lot of good and so on. So rather than say, what an idiot. I shouldn't have talked about this. I shouldn't have talked about that. I'm like, I wonder what my instincts were up to. I wonder what I was navigating. I wonder what I was what hidden motives to replay. And I don't want to extend sort of my speech. But, but I think I did the right thing. I think, you know, I think in hindsight, I did the right thing.

1:03:16And so on. So rather than label yourself, oh, it was bad. I was wrong. And this sat in the other. Where's the curiosity with yourself? That's my question. You're like literally asking me where, where's your theory? Why wouldn't you say, I don't know why I made decisions. I was going to say, I don't know, but I know that's not a. What is easier to answer? Yeah, it's was an easy. It's easy. I mean, I mean, and feel bad and small. Oh, it's easier. Sorry, go ahead. No, yeah, you're saying. Yeah, so yeah, it's, it's like a lazy and it's like, there's no thoughtful exploration of like putting the attention on yourself or like putting the attention on. Like you said, gaming it out, the motives, like consequences, you know, not just the moment, but in the long term, right? Yeah. And also like you're not with that. You're like, not, you're not really giving yourself like a little bit of the benefit of the doubt of like, oh, I am, you know, I do have some pretty good instincts.

1:04:22Like, I wonder why, like what? Yeah, why did I do that? Yeah, you're not giving yourself like a little bit of the benefit of the doubt. You're just like kind of like being lazy and you're also, yeah, not giving yourself the benefit of the doubt. Okay, so let's game this out. Let's say that you were curious and you thought thought it through and game it out and you know, whatever, it could be on your own, it could be writing or in conversation or whatever it is. Okay, so let's say that you released yourself from all of your negative judgments and hostility and harshness towards yourself, right? Let's say, let's just say, let's say, you know, through this call or over the course of this day, you are released from these negative judgments of yourself. Very. And we don't have to go through them because I don't want to repeat them. But let's just say you were released from all the negative judgments of yourself. How does that feel? Because people say they want that. Maybe you do. Oh, you mean how to feel if you had no negative judgments.

1:05:25Of yourself. Now, I don't mean no negative, like no criticisms of yourself ever. But foundationally, like in terms of your essence or your soul, your being or your yourself, like what if you're just like, yeah, you know, I had a bad childhood and I got some, I took some, I took some hits. I also got some strength in that. And you know, I'm a good guy and I can do important things in the world. And so let's say that you released yourself from these negative judgments. How would that feel? Empowering. It would definitely make me feel like a person like, like it would make me feel stronger, like more stable and independent. So then we have a mystery. Why don't you do that? Right. Right. So the things called secondary gains, right? Second gains are the hidden benefits of our mindset. So somebody who might be angry, who's afraid to express this anger will probably become depressed.

1:06:33And he'll say, well, I'm just, I'm sad. I'm down. I, you know, life is meaningless. I don't know what's going on and energy and all of that. And, and but the secondary gain of the depression is he gets to avoid his anger, which is destabilizing and frightening to him. And his relationships and yeah. And he's surrounded by people who would rather him be depressed than angry. Truth. Okay. So there have to be some secondary gains if you say, well, you know, I'd be so great if I didn't have these negative judgments of myself. Okay. So then why do you have these negative judgments of yourself? Because, you know, if we've done calls before, you've listened to my show, you know, that I say curiosity is essential when dealing with the self and all of that, right? So why, what are the secondary gains with having these negative judgments of yourself? Like we already said, like it's kind of like easier. So it's.

1:07:39Yes, but that's very generic. That doesn't give you much knowledge or insight. Of course, of course. So why is it? Let's say you walk out in the world confident, self assured, content and a piece with yourself tomorrow. How does that make you feel? It opens you up to. It's a mating enemy like some people they don't like. They get rubbed their own way if you're like, you know, I was spoken bold. Yeah, if you're decisive and confident, people would try to attack you. Absolutely. Okay. So one of the secondary gains you get is avoiding people's anger and hostility. Like I'm saying, right, as I have for many years, I know where reason and truth comes from comes from matter and energy. And I've got all the proof of the world for that. And people that really pissed off at me. And really hostile. Right. I'm taking away their sense of specialness by saying, yes, you are just matter.

1:08:42And there's no giant God out there obsessing over your every move and making you feel important. And of course, when people go into unreality, they lose love. And so they end up with imaginary affection from God. And if I say there's no God, then they lose that imaginary affection. Right. So anyway, so I'm taking away people's dopamine and their dissociation and so on. And so they're mad. Okay. Yeah, I'm sorry. I'm sorry about that. I mean, I'm sorry about that. But it's not my fault. People are lied to. It's not my fault. And so, okay, so you get to not have people angry and upset with you. So by being self-critical, you avoid the criticism of others or the attacks. By attacking yourself, you avoid the attacks of others. Okay. What else? Okay. I think it's probably related, but like I was just thinking about, like just one example, like I went to a concert recently.

1:09:43And so like all my friends were basically like, I don't want to be specific with details. I'll just say they're busy. So, but I like the artist. I wanted to go to this concert. But like when I was there alone, like one thing I noticed myself is like I kind of, you know, you kind of like stay in your shell a little bit. You're in like a new environment. You don't know anybody. It was like, you know, 50, 100 people maybe. So like you're a little self-critical. Like you kind of stay, like kind of just in a little bit of like observation mode mixed with just like, I guess careful. You know, just like kind of like feeling out the social situation, I suppose. But like, yeah, you kind of like are a little cautious. And you're not like fully just like, what's the up guy like fully like, you know, taking charge of the control of the situation or whatever, like.

1:10:47Well, you just because if other people are there with a group, you don't want to impose yourself on that group. Exactly. And it kind of feels it kind of feels like, okay, I'm like kind of nervous or like I'm kind of like uncomfortable. And I get like you're like kind of that. But also, like you said, you're not trying to like impose yourself. You're not trying to be like, like it's kind of weird to just be like, do not be a little reserved. You know, it's like it could be taken as like aggression or just like, well, it's root. It is because other people are there with their friends to enjoy the concert. And what do you add in the brief time that you could possibly talk to them? It'd be like, it'd be like if I saw if I saw a couple on a date and I pulled up a chair and started to eat dinner with them. Yeah. I mean, that's rude. Absolutely. Yeah. So there's nothing negative about it. I think that's that's a good thing. Sorry. Go ahead. No, and I honestly like, I guess this is just a new way for me to see it or like understand what's going on because

1:11:57like part of me like during that concert, it's like, you know, you are being respectful and you're being like observant. You're just like showing up to social situation. And you don't want to impose yourself and be rude and you don't want to like step on toes. You want to be respectful of like everything that's going on. And I also was able to like connect with some people and like make some friends which felt really special. It felt like really, oh, you mean at the concert? Yeah, at the concert. Oh, cool. You know, I try, you still like, you're cautious and stuff, but you try to like, you still want to talk. You want to have a good time. So it's like you kind of like, you push gently towards being confident and social and everything like that. Yeah, you say, I love this song. And you see if people say, yeah, I love this song too. And then you start chatting. I mean, when my daughter and I were just in Dallas set an event and there we went in and there were people already gathered around the event. And they were in clusters and they were chatting.

1:12:58And so we were, as you do with these kinds of things, you were, we were walking around and we were sort of saying to each other, well, we don't want to interrupt a group, but we also want to join a group. So we want to find a group where they're not necessarily neck deep in conversation because we don't want to interrupt this neck deep in conversation. Because if people are like really in depth in a topic and then you, hey, how you do it? You know, you kind of disrupt it a little. So we're just looking for, we're looking for a group that is good to chat with that we're not interrupting and so on. So yeah, it's just a complicated thing and be roamed around and we ended up chatting with a whole bunch of people had a great time. We were there to like, I don't know, two in the morning, just chatting and all of that. Of course, for me, it's always great to meet listeners, which is wonderful. But yeah, so you don't want to impose, but at the same time, you have things of value to add to a conversation and all of that. So yeah, I mean, if you're going as my daughter and I did quote alone, we didn't go with a large group in which case we'd start chatting with the group.

1:14:03But so we had to find a group to chat with, but we didn't want to impose or interrupt. So yeah, I get this and some delicacy involved in that. Okay, so let's get back to what's the downside? Okay, not self-attacking because there is a downside or there are many. One is if you attack yourself, you don't provoke other people's anger. I mean, they may get frustrated with you because you keep attacking yourself, but you won't provoke people's anger if you attack yourself. Okay, what else? Okay. It like makes you controllable if you... I think of your genes because everything that we have an instinct about has been finally honed for four billion years of evolution. Okay. If you drop a self-attack, what happens to your chances of reproductive success? No, I know the answer is go down, but why? So like, yeah, it goes down. It goes down.

1:15:03Okay. So the reason it goes down is you now look like a fish out of water. Right. Because you come from a very bad background, but you have confidence. Now, if you come from a very bad background where you were attacked constantly, but you don't self-attack, what are people's concerns? People's concerns are that you're insane. Like, how is it possible for you to come from such a bad background and not self-attack? Either you're faking it or maybe there's some sort of hollow shell of confidence or you're just dissociating from your history. And so what you do, if you don't self-attack, you leave the trash planet, right? You take your rocket off trash planet where people just bully an attack or this and the other, right? You leave that, right? And then you hope to land on the planet of people who don't self-attack. Now, most of the people who don't self-attack were raised in sort of healthy, productive, loving families and so on, right?

1:16:07And so they say, oh, you don't self-attack. Tell me a little about your family and then outcome the cavalcade of horrors of your family, right? And then they're like, holy crap, that's terrible. Where has all that horror gone? And they don't know quite how to take you. That makes sense. So you're saying that if you don't self-attack and you're like open about your traumatic, crazy family history, then it makes them like, okay, well, you seem to be somewhat okay. Like, what is it? Like they almost start to do something differently. They do not know how to understand you. They do not have to take you. Now, let's just say for the girls who grew up in reasonably healthy families without all the self-attack, they have a bunch of guys to choose from who don't self-attack, who would just raise that way, right?

1:17:09And so they already have guys who don't self-attack, who come from families that make sense to them, that they have all of that in common. Now, why would they choose you if they don't understand how you're not self-attacking? Why would they choose me? Because I mean, it would probably be better to just be with the guy who's like... Well, because they don't have as much in common with you anymore, or they don't have as much in common with you because you overcame self-attack and they never had to. Yeah, makes sense. You know, the families have been rich for 10 generations. Do they generally marry with other people whose families have been rich for 10 generations? Sure. But necessarily marry into, you know, the guy who grew up totally poor and then became wealthy because they just don't have that in common. Yeah, it's like a different. If you're up in a bad household and you self-attack, then you have a lot in common with other people

1:18:10who grew up in a bad household and self-attack. What do you have in common with people who didn't grow up in bad households and don't self-attack? Never self-attacked, really. I'm really worried about you. You are really rolling the dice because you are leaving the environment where you can easily reproduce and you're going into a much more risky environment. Ah, okay. Very interesting. This is a woman will say, given your history, you should be kind of crazy and disturbed and dysfunctional. But you're not. Right. And I don't understand that. And that there's caution in that, right? Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And so they're probably going to want to go with somebody they understand who's familiar to them, who's not extremely unusual. Does that make sense? Absolutely. So it lowers your reproductive success odds to not self-attacked if you were raised in that paradigm. Sorry, go ahead. Yeah, exactly.

1:19:10It'd be from a reproduction standpoint, I'd have better chances if I was just like kind of stayed where I started. Sure, sure, sure. I mean, it really is rather than getting a job, you just scrambling money and playing the lottery. And that's risky. If you win, it's great, but it's risky. And of course, we're not designed to change classes, right? I mean, if you're if you're born a slave, you're going to live in dire slave, like ancient Rome or wherever, right? You're born a slave, you're going to live in dire slave. And you walk out the next morning with full confidence, no self-attack, no shame, no problems. What is your master going to immediately do? Just say, get your ass back. Yeah, like what you were doing. Yeah, like no. He's going to recognize the threat, right? So he's going to put you in your place and he's going to probably beat the shit out of you. Correct. He's going to humble. Because he's going to say, you know, bring me my wine and you're going to say, hey, man, treat me some respect here.

1:20:11I expect to please and a thank you, which, you know, a confident person would do. And what's he going to do? He's going to beat the shit out of you. Correct. So we're not designed to change classes because that never happened really in human history. I mean, so rarely, right? It was more rare than winning the lottery. So there's massive problems with having confidence. And those who just refused to self-attack had a lower chance of reproductive success. So those jeans got weeded out, which is why you gravitate towards digging into your past, finding anything negative, and inflating it into your mind's eye so that you can attack yourself because your jeans want to reproduce. And if you don't attack yourself, who the hell are you going to reproduce with? You're going to have to find someone else who went through hell and learned how not to self-attack and be self-supportive and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, which is like, what, one person in 10,000?

1:21:12And there. You know, you got 10,000 people around. Let's say there's 2,000 women you can, you can date. And if you're going to look for someone who doesn't self-attack, that brings you down to maybe one person. So would you, would your jeans rather have access to 2,000 egg chambers or one? So. So again, just be, be curious, why do you self-attack? Because, genetically, it works. Because you're signaling to people, I'm just like you, we can have this horrible life together, but at least we'll reproduce. As opposed to striking out for an entirely different kind of life with entirely different kinds of people. What do you say, you're... And for people to be less sorry, go ahead. Would you say that's like something that I would have you like, do you self-attack? Like because like, did you move to a different class? I don't, I don't generally self-attack. I mean, certainly at this point in my age, like I'm going to be 60 relatively soon.

1:22:14I don't really know what the point of self-attacking would be because I can't go back and rewrite my life. And I don't generally, I have a great respect for my instincts. My default position is that everything I'm doing is right until proven otherwise. Right? So I was reviewing my debates with J. Dyer over the last couple of days. And I was like, oh, I should have done this, I should have done that. But then when I'm digging it into it more, right? So I'll just give you a tiny example. So when I was talking about... If since J. Dyer said that all that comes from God is rational and God designed the universe therefore childhood cancers and miscarriages must be rational. Now, technically, I should have said that you have to prove that they're rational because they're irrational. But I said they're bad, terrible, horrible, painful, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then he jumped on that and said, but in a secular universe, it's just atoms and motion. There is no such thing as bad, wrong, terrible, and then he threw an evil.

1:23:17Now, so that's a choice. My instinct was to say how bad, terrible, and horrible it was. Because I certainly, if I was speaking to, you know, I don't know, 300,000, 400,000 people live and then many, many more since. Now, if I just say miscarriages and childhood cancers are irrational, that sounds weird and cold, right? Yeah, it's not emotional. It's not emotional. And for people who, you know, most people, most women, if they've had a bunch of kids, they have gone through a miscarriage or they sure know someone who has. Very few people, of course, have children who have childhood cancers, but certainly in the couple hundred thousand people who are watching, there would be a certain percentage of that, probably at least a dozen or a couple of dozen, whose children had gone through childhood cancers. Now, if I say to the women who've gone through miscarriages and or know someone who've gone through miscarriages, the miscarriages are irrational, that just sounds kind of weird and cold, right?

1:24:20Yeah. And certainly, if I say, well, childhood cancer is irrational. I just sound like, like, spark from the old Star Trek, highly illogical. You know, it doesn't, it doesn't, it doesn't hit the heart. It doesn't hit the emotions. It doesn't hit the passions. And so I gave him, I gave him an out by saying how bad, terrible, and horrible they were, and irrational. And then he could focus on whether they were bad, terrible, horrible, and he, I didn't say evil. I was free because I can't say that miscarriages evil because it's just a biological, it's a failure of a biological process. So you can't say that it's evil. So it would only be evil if like there was God. Yeah, or if somebody poisoned you, or something like that, right? Right. So, yeah. So I, but I also from a persuasion standpoint, I can't just sit there like a robot saying, oh, they're illogical, you know, because they are. Exactly.

1:25:20Yeah, no. So I was like, oh, I shouldn't have said that they were bad. I should have just said that they were irrational because that was the scope of the discussion. But if I'm ripping open some of people's most desperately painful wounds and saying, oh, but this is illogical, it just sounds weird and cold. And, yeah. And particularly, of course, with miscarriage, it happens to women. It happens to couples, but it happens directly to women. And, you know, some of these poor women have to have, like they actually have to give birth to a baby that's dead if it happens later in the term. Or they have to have a DNC. It doesn't just pass on its own. So it is just a horrible brutal experience. And I can't just say it's irrational. So, you know, I was like, oh, I should have just stayed within the narrow scope of the debate topic and said it was irrational. And then like, why did I say it's terrible and brutal and wrong? And I was like, was that a mistake? And, you know, in sort of thinking about it afterwards, I don't think it was because if I'm going to talk about such, you know, incredibly painful topics and say only for irrational.

1:26:23That looks weird and robotic and cold. Like I don't understand human emotions or something like that, which is going to be alienating for people. And so, and also he fell a little bit into my trap. Because when I say they're horrible, terrible, wrong and bad. And he says, you have no right to say that because... Exactly. Yeah, that's... Yeah, exactly. But I just did say that. So, he's saying, you have no right to feel any human emotion and sympathy. When I was exact... I was expressing emotional sympathy and he wasn't because he focused on just the technical aspects of the debate rather than saying, you know what? It is a very troubling question. Why an all loving, all good, all rational God would give us so many miscarriages. That is, you know, because it is terrible, horrible for the women and for the men and obviously for the children. And so, he said, you have no right to have sympathy. Exactly. When he was showing sympathy and I was showing sympathy. So, he says, I, as a Christian, I have the right to feel sympathy for these things.

1:27:24But I'm going to just score the stupid points rather than have sympathy for a tragically common human experience such as miscarriage. And so, I'm willing to sort of sacrifice the point at the moment to have him fall into a trap. And then he ends up looking cold and weird, which I think he can't have if. But I end up showing a lot of sympathy. So, according to his viewpoint, I should have no sympathy because it's just Adam's in space. And he should have sympathy because he's a Christian. But what happened was I expressed sympathy and he used it as a petty gotcha while showing no sympathy. Right? So, it was kind of a... So, I just have to trust my instincts. Exactly. It wasn't like... Of course, I can always do things better and I do think about that kind of stuff. But I won't automatically say, oh, I should have done this because technically blah blah blah blah. I have to say, why did my instincts tell me to do that? And my instincts are fairly well honed by this point and I had good instincts to begin with. So, sorry, it's for the lengthy example. But that's just an example of me. Oh, I went outside the narrow scope of the debate and it's like, but there was a point to it as well.

1:28:26And I didn't... I understood that instinctively at the time that I can't talk about these things without expressing sympathy. Expressing sympathy goes outside the narrow scope of rationality versus irrationality. But I can't talk about such terrible things without showing sympathy and compassion. And so... Yeah. So, I generally tend to be more curious about these instincts. So, occasionally, of course, I'm sort of frustrated or I should have done this or I should have done that. But I just take that deep breath and say, okay, let's just unpack it and see what the consequences of other decisions would have been. Oh, I should have talked about childhood cancers and miscarriage without showing any emotional sympathy. It's like, I don't think that I should have. I don't think that would be alienating for people as a whole. And when it came to sympathy and people, especially people who've suffered, they do respond to sympathy. And given that I showed sympathy to these terrible things and Jay didn't.

1:29:28And then Jay said, I'm the only one who can show sympathy when I was showing sympathy. And he wasn't, again, it doesn't win points in the moment, but over time, it sinks into people's heads and hearts in a way. So, sorry for again, I like the example, but it is something like that where I'm like, I wonder why I did do that. And that's interesting and so on. And so, I don't generally self-attack. I very much enjoy what I do. And I also, I know that I'm a high-wire act. Like it's a crazy high-wire act. To be trying to advance reason and evidence on so many disparate fronts from politics, to self-knowledge, to the family, to religion, to ethics, to try. I'm fighting like a 12 front war almost, right? And so, I'm going to make mistakes. There's a tennis champion, I think it was Andre Agassi, who was pointing out that he only won 54% of the points.

1:30:31So, the difference between winning and losing is like that old Jerry Seinfeld thing, like 100 meters sprint. You know, like people win by a tenth of a second and it's like, if I'd had a pimple on my nose out of one. And so, the stakes, the success rate, I only have to win a little bit more than I lose. And so, if I'm going to self-attack whenever I lose or whenever I make a bad choice, then I'm not going to make any choices and then I lose completely. You know, if you're like, I can't lose any points in tennis. It's like the guy to become a world champion only had to win 54% of his points. So, he's losing 46% of his points. And if he's focused on the losing, he doesn't get the 54%. So, hopefully that makes sense. It does. So, you should have sympathy as to why you self-attack. Because it's Eugene saying, we need to reproduce with the familiar man. And if you take us away from the familiar, I don't know what's going to happen. But it ain't going to be good. Yeah, like what you said about how you're like innocent till proven guilty or like you're right.

1:31:41Like you just assume you're right. And then you inspect it and you play things out. Well, yeah, I'm not alone in here. So, I have my conscious brain. I have my unconscious brain. I have my gut. You know, there's a lot of neurons in the gut. And so, I have, it's a whole bunch of complex things. It's all the evolutionary instincts. It's my conscious mind. It's the stuff that I've learned. It's the stuff I've thought of myself. And so, there's a huge number of pieces in motion whenever I'm doing anything. Right. And so, I can't sit there and say, I have made a mistake because I am a giant bunch of complexity. All working together. Yeah, and, you know, hopefully working at the right end and with the right goal. And I'm also doing something completely new in a completely new medium with no institutional support. And so, I think it's reasonable to have some sort of patience with myself and say,

1:32:43okay, well, if you're doing something completely new in a completely new medium, never been done before. And you're fighting on like 10 to 20 different fronts with no particular institutional support. Well, what does it even mean to make a mistake? Like if you're exploring, if you're exploring some entirely new continent, can you go in the wrong direction? It's kind of hard to know, right? It's a little hard to know. And the question almost doesn't make sense if that makes sense. Yeah. So, I think recognize that your instincts to self-attack are very healthy in a way for your genes. And changing it up, switching it up is not something we're designed for. And it is very tricky. It is very tricky, it's a very tricky operation. And if you're going to say, I want to live without self-attack, then you've got to really commit to that. And that that's got to be a paradigm. It's to just replace self-attack with curiosity.

1:33:44How do I know I'm wrong? I mean, obviously, if you're strengthening Hobos, then you're wrong. I get that, right? But that's not really what we're talking about, right? Right. This conversation, I was like, this is pretty cool. Good. Well, that's why I was very happy to have the call. That's a different sort of situation, right? Yeah. Definitely gives me something completely new to think about here. And male sexuality is an absolutely brutal and semi-indiscriminate force of nature. I mean, they talk about strong weak atomic forces. Excuse me, sexuality and in particular male sexuality is just a brutal wild, indiscriminate force, particularly when you're young. And if it colors outside the lines from time to time, which it doesn't really sound like you did much in your case, is like looking at a five-year-old coloring in something and saying, oh, you went outside the lines.

1:34:44It's like, well, yeah, it doesn't fight. All right. All right. Well, it sounds like I've given you some stuff to chew over. And I should probably speak if chewing up or grab a little bite before. Sorry. How was the call for you? It was, I just, yeah, I'm like happy I called. I could have just canceled the call or whatever, but I'm really proud of that. I would have been self-attacking. Right? Yeah, I mean, yeah. I think it was just really good. And some of my biggest takeaways are like, just assume, like you said, you're very complex. You have your gut, your brain, your intuition or whatever, like experience that, like, just like kind of assume you made the right decision. Don't just like, don't just self-attack, but have curiosity and like, think through what other options or what other things would have led to.

1:35:52And then also just like understanding that there's like, it's like new ground, you know, stepping on here. So like, there's not really like wrong steps. It's more just like, it's just like kind of exploring. And what else? I don't know. I'm going out to think about it. Yeah, you get to relisten to it. It's a public call. So nobody. Yeah. All right, brother. Well, listen, stay in touch. I appreciate the call. And I'm glad that you decide to power through and do it this way. All right. Thank you. That's the best. Bye. Okay. Bye.