A fractured alliance

0:00We interrupt this broadcast with some important news. Let's rewind and check out the biggest news stories from this week. It's time, time for Taiwan this week. Good evening and welcome to this week's edition of Taiwan this week here on ICRT with me, your host Gavin Phipps. I'm joining the studio this evening by regular commentator Brian Hume. Thanks for having me. And a meet-up reviewer asked from TVBS News. Hi there. And we'll begin this week's show with the Taiwan People's Party's Central Committee passing a resolution this past Sunday announcing that it's halted its electoral cooperation with the KMT in all races in Shin-Zu County. The move came after both parties refused to defer to the others preferred candidates in the Jubei City mayoral race. The KMT's U-Shu Jure and the TPP's Cho Chen-Yuen both registered as candidates for the Jubei mayoral election last Thursday. U had initially tried to downplay the standoff though, saying cooperation in the race was still possible. However, Shushin-Ying, the KMT's nominee for Shin-Zu County, registrates later claimed that the two parties have not made any agreements on the Jubei race.

1:04Needless to say, that angered the TPP somewhat with the party's secretary general, Joe Yu-Show, telling reporters that the KMT ensues inability to keep promises and seriously damaged the foundation of mutual trust and the two parties have gradually built up over the past two years. The KMT and the TPP candidates in the Jubei City mayoral race will be running against the DPP's Tung-Shun Kai, an independent candidate, Lee Chen-Shou, who was expelled from the TPP ironically enough in April. Now, the two parties reached an agreement in March to coordinate candidates and cooperate on policy positions for the November 28 elections. Under that agreement, the TPP agreed to support the KMT's mayoral or magistrate nominees in New Taipei, Tai Jong, Tai Nen, Gao Shung and Ilan. The KMT said it would support the TPP's candidate in Jai City. They also agreed to jointly support an independent in Jai County, an independent former TPP member in Shin-Zu City. But as it did several years ago, ahead of a presidential election, quite famously, the relationship appears Brian to have fractured somewhat again.

2:06Of course, there was nobody storming out of a hotel meeting this time. It was just a little local election in Shin-Zu County. Does it bowed well for future arrangements between those two parties? Yeah, I tend to think not, but it's also not the most important race. And that's also why it's a little surprising that occurred in Jube, because this is not the biggest prize for either party. But it is a sign of fractures, I think, when it comes to the PPP and the KMT. Certainly, we're going to local elections as not as important as presidential elections or legislative elections, such as led to the fracturing of their attempt and alliance last time around. Fracturing? That's a bit of a downplanet a bit. Yeah, I mean, well, a bigger, more expressive word there, but that's true. I think one of the more memorable incidents in Tommy's politics, certainly in the last few years, I mean, just the two parties and also Terry Goe and former president Mayingsio, just sitting in a hotel and just trying to have a press conference and then arguing and all this confusion there. But it's spilled over in a very embarrassing way, very publicly following weeks of turmoil about what polling results meant and everyone knows what the results meant, but they don't want to accept it.

3:13Margin of error is a scientific term, and they would fight over the meaning of margin of error, because you can just kind of say whatever you want really. And so it hasn't gotten to that extent. I think they will try to, of course, avoid similar spectacles because everyone will raise these comparisons to the last time around. But I think the sign of the TPP being a bit unsatisfied now, especially with the failure to coordinate in New Taipei with Party Chair Huang Wichang with drawing in favor of the candidate from the KMT, Lisa Tran. Lisa Tran is not doing the most strongly right now. He's a bit weaker than I think expected. And so that's maybe leaving the TPP if it's a smarting, like, what if it had been us instead? So maybe that's where this is coming from. Well, it's important for the TPP to remain relevant, relevant in this election and the next election. So I believe there was a negotiation and discussion, and it was this issue is part of a long equation you give and take, and they were arguing endlessly about you give me a chance in this election.

4:14I will give you a chance. I will support your candidate in another election. So the TPP is making a point right now. They want to show that if they don't respect what they said prior to that in the previous negotiations for the other candidates in other elections, they won't support them either. So the reason is the TPP wants to remain relevant. The relationship now is kind of disproportionate. The came T has grown bigger and bigger and vicious. The TPP is getting smaller and is kind of struggling to remain relevant. So maybe the leadership wants to rebalance this relationship and try to survive. If they can survive this election, maybe they have a chance for the next one. And it's a big one because legislators and that's how maybe they would be able to influence the came T in the future. If they fail in this local election, this will be the end of the TPP.

5:15I mean, do you think that's right, Brian? Do you think the Taiwan people's party could become irrelevant if it doesn't actually win lots of seats in this local election? Yeah, I think it's a good question. I think it does depend on the party leadership and how they played their cards because what has happened is this is a party built around Koenjo, who has made go to jail now. And now Huang Wichang is a leader, but he has pushed out many of the other party heavyweights. And so he's the person that is remaining there. And I think his brand is in some ways going down that actually. He has not really managed to stay as relevant. And so they do actually have to have a strong position in this election, or they again, like as Dimitri Singh will not have a position to negotiate with the came T. And I think they have not really played the very strong hand that they were actually dealt in the last of elections very well in the last few years. They've aligned too closely with the came T. And that makes them indesinguishable in voters eyes from the came T except being a smaller party, which ironically the same fate led by that that suffered the last party led by Huang Wichang, the new power party.

6:17And so they could have actually really balanced between the DPP and the came T to really maximize their position to leverage on both sides and negotiate with both sides. But instead they just sided without seemingly much negotiation with the came T. And now they're trying to actually carve out independent space that may not work, I think, at the sleep juncture. Because both parties don't like the DPP, but if you would have thought both parties don't like them enough to actually remove them from office, surely if they formed an alliance, they would get more votes. They would get 60% of the votes probably together. Yeah, but I think also the came T is a bit dissatisfied, which I think is also quite normal for the larger party in political camp. Why are we giving some votes away to this smaller party? We can just take the votes for ourselves. And so for example, Jinyun, when she was running for chair, was a bit ambiguous on this notion suggesting that cooperation is possible. But then also stating that, well, we could also just run ourselves. And so I think that is a question some of the came T are asking. We should remember that the Coenja drama is not over yet. And this is going to play over the next few weeks and months. And maybe the public is kind of fed up with it. We still don't have the answer.

7:24So the tension and I think the Coenja could have been the person who I would be maybe the proper person to negotiate with the came T. But given his position right now, he doesn't have a voice within the party anymore. So it's going to be clearly and rapidly a leadership issue for the TPP. If the TPP fails in this election, the leadership will have to step down. And if the Rwango trans steps down, there is nobody behind him. And if he steps down, brown, where is he going to go? I think we're going to the KMT that is also possible. So actually, conspiratorally, I think there's also the possibility that many of the party heavyweights in the TPP have already given up on the party and are now just trying to maximize positions for eventually being in the KMT because there are a lot of politicians that are of the TPP's original slate were from pan blues split off parties from the KMT. And so it's also possible. I think it will also be a question because I think any party, especially a small party, you have the individual politicians are part of it balancing their own personal careers and the party's future as a whole.

8:30And if the party doesn't seem to have a future, people may be just negotiating for the future. And so that's also to be seen, but I think particularly the party is struggling a bit here. I was very surprised in some of the last few rallies they had in support of Coenja, who's not as large as I would have expected in fact. And that's to be their main issue when they can mobilize all their supporters. Actually, most of the parties who split from the KMT over the few years later, they all pretty much vanish. And most of these leaders, heavyweights, were not welcome back within the KMT. So there is just one potential ending to this story. If they fail in the election, that will be the end of the party. Which is also interesting because the Singedua County Administrative, Canada for the KMT is originally the head of the Minkwal Dung, which is also a more traditionalist spin off. That's also a split. But now has been welcome back to the party. So actually it's quite interesting. I was seeing these dynamics. I think recur in various iterations through Tony's Baltics.

9:30Moving on, but staying with the election, Central Election Commission Chairman Michael Yo this week, and now it's at a total of 9,695 candidates are registered for 11,051 positions in the 9 in 1 local elections. And they include 26 Chinese spouses naturalized as Taiwan nationals. Now according to Yo, the Chinese spouse candidates, two are running for the position of councillor in the six special municipalities, two for county councillor, one for township head, two for township councillors, and 19 for walled people. Yo also stressed that the eligibility of all the candidates will be determined based on current laws. Now that statement came amid questions about a former celebrity who registers at the candidate, despite having relinquished her Republic of China household registration and national health insurance coverage, and having lived in China for an extended period. Now the Central and local election commissions are scheduled to complete candidate eligibility reviews by October the 16th, and the lucky numbers for the draw for candidates have numbers. And they're considered lucky. That will be made in October the 23rd. Now the Central Election Commission Chairman this week also confirmed that only one referendum will be held alongside the local elections.

10:39And that referendum is on whether the government should abolish its nuclear free homeland policy. The Commission rejected two other referendum proposals approved by the legislature arguing that they did not fall within the scope of matters that can be put to a referendum and Article 2 of the Referendum Act. So to me tree lots of candidates, but this Michael Yo made great play of the Chinese spouses. Yeah, the Chinese spouses who are Taiwanese because to be able to join the election, you need to have a Taiwanese passport. Now the process to obtain a passport as a Chinese citizen is a very complicated process, which includes a proof that you renounce your citizenship, a proof document which is not easy to obtain in China. Yesterday during the weekly briefing at the mail-on of her council, the deputy head of the council made it clear that once you have that proof of that you renounce your citizenship, it's 10 years later you were able to join an election.

11:45So I believe they prepared the documents and they submit their application already, but now all these applications will be reviewed very carefully whether at the central government or local level, but they will go through all the paperwork. And I'm not so sure if all the 26 potential candidates in the end will join the election. Yeah, I think so as well. I think also I'm not necessarily sure this will become a large political issue in the way that it has already been a political issue to date because are these candidates, for example, running for a high level of office? Are they backed by a major political party? And this has already come up, for example, with like Lee Jensyo and other Chinese nationals who then later acquire Taiwanese nationality and then ran for office. And that did create scandals at the time, of course, about connections to China, the allegations of not dropping of actually having to go up the Chinese nationality or household registration, connections united for activities. But then at very local levels, I think, for example, if it's not at the national level, let's say, or just at the level of bureau chief, very kind of neighborhood positions, it might not lead to controversy.

12:53And it depends on whether a political party is willing to invest political capital in defending a potentially controversial candidate. And I think having this having played out already in Taiwanese politics in the last year, I think it may not actually come up necessarily with just a few months before the election. And of course, Brian, the people running for the DPP might make a big issue of this, the people running for some smaller parties might make a big issue of this. But the general population will care if the woman running for a bureau chief post is from China or not. I think at that very local level, not necessarily. And in some places in Taiwan, that might actually be an asset or make someone more distinctive as a candidate. But I think particularly at the county or city council level, that would be more of an issue. But I think, particularly, it's also a local election. It would actually be much more significant at the legislative level, if this were, for example, legislative elections. Well, the election, it all starts with connecting with the local people. So in some local, maybe more rural areas, it's very possible that some candidates and potential candidates, because of their connection with their neighborhood, they might be able actually to get really in touch with any local people.

14:09And in touch with and understanding the expectation of the local population. My family lives in in in pay toll. And I remember the National Immigration Agency visiting my neighborhood once and then asking to to meet with me. They were telling me that in my neighborhood, there were actually many mainland spouses living in that area. You usually don't know because you maybe don't have a chance to to meet them, but they know each other, that they support also each other. So in an election at a very local level, that could be a plus. It's purely maybe in the next few years, we will see candidates at the city level or maybe at the county level. And then on later on at the legislative level, but it takes time. But I think it really it all starts first with the connection between the potential candidate and the local population. And I do believe that a lot of mainland Chinese mainland spouses do a lot for their community and support a lot of people around them.

15:17Because Brian, of course, this could come an issue in coming years like Demetri said, because of course it's not only Chinese spouses who are eligible to run. So also Vietnamese spouses who will one day or are eligible to run Indonesian spouses foreign spouses generally will be allowed to run. Do you see I mean, or do you see the local reaction to this being? Oh, they're not from Taiwan. Yeah, I think it depends. I think it's a very interesting because basically when you do talk about bureau chiefs, it is very, very local of course. So for example, what if there are many people from China related backgrounds, maybe Washington, but maybe immigrants as well in a local area, constituents are only a few thousand people. That being said, I have a friend who's a city counselor and he actually claims it's harder to run for bureau chief than city counselor because you need to know that 1,000 people extreme, the extreme, the extremely, extremely well. So it is actually a question and that's why I think this position tends all often towards families that have been there for a while and have a lot of recognize ability and then better out for generations. So actually that is a question actually may not necessarily be the case that someone who is let's say naturalized can actually run at that very, very local position without having been there for a very long time, having a higher profile at the city counselor level or county council level or legislative level might actually be easier.

16:33But that will come up I think a lot of times though when the Southeast Asian people who have naturalized to Taiwanese nationality, they tend to have ethnic Chinese backgrounds and so that actually basically avoids some of the I think racist backlash would otherwise occur because they do look like your average person on the street. And so in the future that may change but I think it would particularly in very conservative local neighborhoods that would be more difficult it might be in a more kind of urban diverse area that you would see someone who is not originally born in Taiwan and clearly from let's say Southeast Asia that's able to win a very local seat like bureau chief. But again, I think it's very hard because you do really need to know that 1,000 people extremely, extremely well. And the matrix was only one referendum is on the ballot because they took the others off. Yeah, that's a new thing now in Taiwan for the referendum and we never thought of that but you also need to ask for the you asked you ask commissioners first. So the CC now must determine if the proposal qualifies as a major policy.

17:36Now the traffic fine proposal was rejected by 4 to 3 vote and never end so that will never reach the ballot. So now who sets the priorities and that's a question about Taiwan's democracy. If you take for example Switzerland who has these these referendums all the times they will have actually another referendum by the end of September. You asked the voters first the citizens can propose almost anything and in late September they will discuss the national corporation they could also discuss you you ties military policy and neutrality. So the upcoming tests on September 27 the voters will decide whether to constitutionally restrict national cooperation sanctions without you and approval. So it's a big topic. The public the citizens can can have a say on this but at the end on Taiwan for a simple referendum mobile traffic fines you can't even ask the question.

18:43So now there is a gatekeeper that tells you which questions you can ask. So that I think raised questions about Taiwan's democracy and if what is the utility of referendums in the future. I think Brian has a point there Brian I mean shortly if it's a referendum for the public any wacky question could be asked. Well that's sure if there's enough signatures on it though this time interesting the came to push it through the legislature rather than campaigning with the public which is something they could have done. To build for example for a cause they want to rally behind and then use that to benefit elections and in many ways the came to is trying to repeat 2018 when there were many questions but that actually seemed to benefit them in the election. That the public rallied around these questions that galvanize our candidates and they had a pretty good year that in terms of elections. But this time around without having gone to signatures I'm not sure the public necessarily cares as much about these issues and the came to TPP or in control of the legislature. So they could have passed laws especially regarding the traffic fine referendum.

19:45But we do see this very interesting phenomenon it's not the first time that the Central Election Commission has rejected certain questions. For example on capital punishment because though the came to had tried to frame that was a canine one because the court. No I mean not this year not this year. It rejected the canine one this year of course. Yes but in the past the Central Election Commission rejected the capital punishment because it is still on the books in fact. The constitutional court ruling narrowed the scope of cashable punishment did not abolish it as a canine to you would like to frame it. And this time around it is a the traffic fines but also then canine which is an unexpected turn because nobody really demanded canine I think from the public. But the KMP decided this an issue that they can leverage on with the public. And so that was rejected on the basis of for example. Just lack of social discussion as well on issues like euthanasia as well as you see this much more combative Central Election Commission under Michael Yo which is not as partly surprising considering that he is there.

20:45He is someone that was historically DPP but then increasing turn against the DPP and they put him there for some reason though he has also gone against the party at times. And I think particularly he is quite willing actually to openly criticize when you do have opposition parties campaigning for example he didn't like that there is a lot of referendum questions saying that this will be quite a lot you should withdraw some questions that you haven't really seen that kind of actions from a commissioner of the Central Election Commission before. Now we shouldn't put them as gatekeepers understand that they could say there is a number a limit number of referendum we can have during each election potentially. But even if it's a bad question it will bounce back on the political party that is pushing for that question but the voters will hit back at the party that asked the wrong question. But here we are putting one person a couple of people and we give telling them that you guys are the gatekeepers you decide which which which questions can be asked and that could be awkward.

21:46Not only in Taiwan but also in European countries even in the United States if a non elected official can have a say on what elected officials are trying to push. You see the contradiction here it's a non elected official so who gives him the power to decide which question is good or not the voters can decide because we believe that the Taiwanese voters can see through these questions and just you'll take the right decisions. So this interesting phenomenon basically we're during the last referendum you would have multiple sets of questions about the same issue and the Central Election Commission did not actually act to say well you can only have one wording and not two different wordings because of course the text of a referendum question people it doesn't phones people's voting behavior but then what happened in 2018 is that people are consistent people did not actually get mixed up between the one wording and another wording they actually voted rather consistently. And so then you had this CEC during that period very very unwilling to intervene and now you have a CC that's very willing to intervene it's interesting because the DPP perceives Michael Yoza having turned more Pam blues time went on and they believe that they put him there as a compromise to the came T at a time which the came to refuse to allow for example nominations to the constitutional court the National Communications Commission and the control room and so it is a kind of a points I think against the very partisan nature and divided government we have it present.

23:09But there is a second issue about that about the referendum is the argument about the cost because we were told that having more than one or maybe up to six referendum would be extremely expensive and again the gatekeeper tells you that oh you can do this or do you do not do that but last time during the recall elections did any of the gatekeepers argue that potentially none of your recall would succeed and the cost of that are expensive we're talking about the same thing. But we're talking about hundreds of millions of NT dollars it all failed nobody take took responsibility for that failure and that waste of money but back then the gatekeepers said okay potentially we can have the recall a recall is just a referendum you're just asking do you like this person or not yes or no it's a referendum so what was fine and spending all that money last year it's not any but that runs to your argument about the Central Election Commission being unelected and is being put there because right now we have a referendum that the hundred plus people in the legislature have decided the nation should have whereas recalls collected tens of thousands of signatures to even hold that vote and so I think there's a contradiction that argument.

24:21And we have to take a short break now but we will return after these rather important messages. And welcome back to Taiwan this week and we're going to stay with election news now as the Ministry of Justice's investigation bureau this week warned about foreign election interference now that electoral related crimes and according to the bureau it's open 55 investigations into such suspected crimes and they include looking into allegations of illegal foreign campaign contributions money laundering and oh election related to the election. Election related gambling which is always one comes at room with time as an election now apparently 25 suspects have been detained some 70 suspects are released on bail and the bureau has said it sees just over 60 billion NT and funds related to the cases. Meanwhile American student Taiwan director Raymond Green touched on the election during his keynote address of the 2026 Thai based security dialogue this week and green warned against artificial intelligence enabled information manipulation ahead of the local elections.

25:22Sangalow Thai one has earned a claim for its efforts to counter disinformation it must still brace for a new wave of sophisticated AI powered cognitive warfare aimed at the election so Brian you're a you're a young person who's a bit tech savvy are you worried about AI information leaking out there it being incorrect. So it is interesting because I think there's been a lot of warnings about AI and the use for producing discrimination at scale but is it actually effective is a different question entirely because I think particularly with disinformation it's not about the quantity it's actually about the quality if it's very nuanced it's very looks like it's it's local and some of the Taiwanese in fact is voicing it that is much more convincing than just seeing a bunch of text that isn't simplified characters let's say on the internet. And so this is something I think Chinese disformation has gotten better at using in filters partnering with influencers because there are Taiwanese people who will localize content and put a face on it rather than a very mechanically producing large content scale. But I think the thing about Chinese information operations for example is their bureaucracies and they're just trying to meet KPI is many times and AI makes that job easier even if it's not necessarily impacting anybody.

26:30And so there are a lot of these warnings but then it's a question because actually the most effective disformation is not the one you can detect it's the one that just passes by and nobody really knows. Well there are two issues here the first is misinformation the second is attribution in Taiwan we do the attribution first we always attribute misinformation to a specific country or region or a political organization. The misinformation can come from anywhere from any organization from any country it's not a Taiwan only issue it happens also in Europe in the United States we've seen political organizations using social media to target some users to make them vote or destroy them to vote. Whether we should attribute that these campaigns to a specific party or a person well it's up to maybe the authorities to do that but whenever we talk about misinformation in Taiwan we always start about pointing at one political party or one country on the other side of the Taiwan straight.

27:37We need to teach young people to understand and maybe learn and realize by themselves what is misinformation and allowing them to you know to maybe through reading through teaching to maybe see by themselves what is this information instead of again as a time one way of doing thing it's always there is only one correct answer and you have to know that correct answer. Yes there is a problem with this information in Taiwan but to solve that problem it all starts with education. Well I think the thing is that this formation when it appears in Taiwan it's in the Chinese language and there's only so many places it can be from in fact and there is one which is I think certainly self evident. The point of conducting nuanced disinformation then is in fact to make it not clear words from that is there's no clear smoking gun saying that's from China and in the past particularly when disinformation efforts were less sophisticated it was pretty self apparent because PRC Mandarin and Taiwan Mandarin have many vocabulary differences and that was never localized.

28:48Simified versus traditional is one thing but that's relatively easy to actually just change it over and it's the more the terms that is actually harder. And so there's that but I think particularly when you do look at China and how it conducts disinformation operations it does outsource actually and so for example Malaysian Chinese groups are actually among those that it outsources to there is the wave of for example. A few years back there was Facebook page moderators were being contacted by accounts in simplified Chinese asking to purchase their pages and I think it's pretty self apparent where that is coming from based on vocabulary for example is a term Guan Guan which is moderator but that's not commonly used in Taiwan. Xiao Bien like editor that's more common you talk about the moderator of a social media page and so yeah there's no smoking gun that it's from China but. Occam's razor the simplest explanations often the best explanation if it looks that way it uses simplified characters and it uses PRC vocabulary I think it's probably from the PRC yeah it's called a convenient truth because using AI you can make any text that's the

29:52reason I don't know if you can use and make any text look like it comes from the from the UK from from France or from attribution is very important yes but it shouldn't come before fighting this information the disinformation issue is not just about Taiwan versus China is even within Taiwan you have when you look at the different media as within Taiwan you can see how they play or overplay their some some news for a political reason so that that's an issue China is a is a good potentially good excuse we could blame everything on China but China is not the only responsible for the situation we have right now in Taiwan because Brian a lot this comes on a mobile phones yeah I mean that's a also interesting messaging apps the line right things right of course I mean I think a particularly yeah a lot of the WhatsApp style or line style closed messenger chats are often where is very

30:56different spreads and it's a bit in closed chat groups and so it's less detectable whereas an open kind of social media page you can see much more visibly where it's from in that sense then it's harder to find attribution for example because of this precise fact social media platforms like Facebook have started rolling out things like saying where this page was registered and you can just click and look at the country and there are some where it just says China and they are putting out this disarmation that is trying to suit certain political ends that is much harder when you have an account that's online that is putting out stuff on mass but there's not that attribution and so that's also points to that what is considered social media sometimes has led to certain blind spots line is social media but then you have not had the same call online to for example have this open disclosure of let's say we're an account is registered and moving away from the elections now in the government's new registration requirement for group travel to China took effect this week the move means that travel agencies are required to assist customers to register with the mainland affairs councils reporting system for travelers going to China

31:58the council has said the move is aimed to ensure the safety of Taiwan citizens traveling to China as Beijing introduces new travel regulations the tourism administration has instructed travel agencies to inform travelers of the risks of visiting China a system in completing the government's voluntary online travel registration form and submitting relevant statistics to authorities to ensure the group is covered by travel agency liability insurance travel agencies that fail to comply with the new rule face fines up to 50,000 NT now the government banned local travel agencies from soliciting packaged to a groups to China in 2020 but of course group cross straight travel tours do still exist and the new policy is being seen by some as a way for the government to better monitor group travel to China and or an attempt to deter people from traveling there so Brian obviously this caused a bit of a stink because the travel agencies were like oh well if someone doesn't register who pays why should we pay a fine if someone doesn't register and why do they need to register if they go overseas

32:59Brian absolutely so the line administration then wants to have more oversight over group tours there are Taiwanese that go missing in China every month some are policy political some are probably accidents and a majority are criminals bruh there is also that yes and so then the line administration I think particularly wants to play that up talking about for example the dangers of traveling to China because it does suit policy incentives again having more anxiety about China does benefit the DPP electorally I think also particularly the DPP is pretty happy about the increase in investment not directed towards China but towards Southeast Asia and the US in that sense I think it's it's kind of an odd move because I don't think the group tour operators would have likely wanted to comply to begin with there are people that do disappear in China and oftentimes there are cases where families do not contact the mainland affairs council because they believe keeping quiet will get this person out faster and even if they are for example criminals China's legal system is incredibly opaque people are waiting for very long periods of time there's not a due process

34:03and it can be very easily politicized and so there is that as well but when it comes to those who would be targeted I don't think they're likely to necessarily to travel to China if they have political issues for example that might lead to them getting in trouble there are cases where Taiwanese have gone over and been taken in and even very high levels there was a delegation from with a frequency the KMT legislative caucus leader put your travel to Hong Kong and a member of delegation was taken in for fraud allegations and he reportedly did not report it himself to the mainland affairs council and so that led to some scrutiny on him so there can there I think there is a it is understandable when you might want to report travel to China in case something happens but I don't think it's likely to occur through the group tours exactly when this group tours bright yeah exactly this is not some political pun political person going to China this is a group of people that just want to go to some place in China for a week three days right now there's that there's a possibility that someone did something and fell off of Chinese law and is not aware of it when they go on a group tour there's that possibility

35:05well there is also a possibility that there will be a record so if you leave the information and you report that you're going to China that could also bounce back against you later on because of that record there is already a voluntary registration system for all overseas travel it's not new but why China and at the same time why China and not Russia or Iran or North Korea if you go to North Korea you don't have to register is it safe to go to North Korea so the it's complicated the way they use it voluntarily in the end you pretty they can force your hand to report it because maybe travelers won't want to report to authorities but those agencies will have to and they also bear the financial risk because the margin for the tickets they sell for you to travel to China it's just a couple of hundred and ten dollars sometimes a few thousand and ten dollars the risk and the fines are extremely high

36:09now the timing is also pretty controversial we again heading for the local election and this issue is popping up so it's it's a pretty it's a pretty serious and Brian I was traveled to China was in fact gone up in recent years yeah it's not surprising I think also the interesting thing is that more Chinese traveling to Taiwan but they are the Chinese that have stayed abroad for some time and then therefore can travel directly to Taiwan but the government is looking to for and I don't say no one to stop people from going to China but in a round about way it doesn't particularly want to see its nationals going to China yeah I think so but then I think particularly after the end of COVID-0 and etc it is easier to travel to China so I think the line mistration it is trying to discourage people from going to China but it cannot do so in a very overt way so I think it does these kind of round about means or talks about the case of disappearances as a way to to discourage people from that I mean there is of course the longstanding concern that we always have for elections about the Taishang that reside in China

37:11traveling back to and that's another I think component of this less Taishang there are for the administration it considers that as removing a point of leverage that China has on Taiwan and well there is a convergence at the same time because the US also raised its warning levels for traveling to China warnings for arbitrary detention, exit bans, espionage investigations so the US State Department I think yesterday or the day before yesterday they also increase the warning for traveling not only to China but for regions I think like Macau they they have increased the warning and also to warn American citizens when they when they decide to travel to China China is currently in the process of amending laws regarding entry and exit so that is also something to keep an eye on like how that changes and before we go this week the health promotion administration on Tuesday began an e-cigarette collection campaign now the administration said it's placed the anonymous collection boxes at some 430 local health bureaus and health centers island wide

38:16with the aim of removing vaped devices from circulation now the cabinet approved a draft amendment to the tobacco has its prevention act in June the ban the manufacture importations sale supply display advertisement and use of e-cigarettes under that amendment people face fines between 30,000 and 100,000 NT if they're found to be in possession of well said e-cigarettes now the head of the health promotion administration's tobacco control division told reporters that people can voluntarily turn in their e-cigarettes without providing their names or any personal information and the collection program is expected to continue for a one month grace period so Brian collection boxes for vapes and e-cigarettes apparently didn't go down too well because it was all on the TV the day after and there was the cameras were focusing on empty boxes well that's not so that like those programs they have in the say the US to exchange firearms it's a bit of a strange situation but then you do see this moral panic suddenly about vaping and e-cigarettes

39:16because of the use of drugs through them and that's the gum thing the government is really wanting to be proactive and so you also do see a kind of backlash I think and smoking attempts in cementing for example to the smoke into this last box then that smokers need to go into and they actually also introduced one in Gongkwan which is widely marked because it looked like a prison so just this little area that is like a cage and you can go inside and smoke which is of course strange and humiliating but I guess these attempts will continue on the part of the government I haven't seen footage of people going to the box to depose their vapes there is a privacy issue because it's the location is not I mean it's like more like surrending yourself there is also a coverage gap because throughout Taiwan 431 location is not these locations are not also super convenient there is a convenience mismatch obviously

40:19it's a policy the way they design the policy is pretty awkward because let's say that if you put those boxes at for example convenience doors like 711 you would have actually someone bringing back the vapes and at the same time being able to buy cigarettes and it would be a pretty awkward situation because cigarettes are fine you can smoke as much as you want this brings revenue to the states but vaping is not cool I understand the concern about drugs yes but I think to me that I can equal equally problematic I just have this vision of people wearing ski masks to exchange their vapes but then I don't know actually I don't think there is such social stigma attached to vaping that they have to go to this extent in that sense but then yeah I don't know I don't know, there is a legal but everywhere you go you see people vaping

41:20yeah and so there is that I don't know what imperative the government sees itself as acting on but I think there is a desire to see them as they are promoting health and fighting drugs and etc through that but I'm going to ban cigarette papers of course they could also do that I mean they could ban all manner of things just because there are potentially harmful uses to almost anything Bicycles yeah I mean you could get hit by a bicycle the irony is they could start with for example you see a lot of people sniffing glue because they did not remove the addictive substances that are present in glue in Taiwan so you see people going around plastic bags and sniffing glue and you see the stuck to the side of the wall people are leaving this everywhere and these people are clearly very very unwell and so why not address that first in fact you are being you are being facetious Brian well good good good good good good sniffing was when I was a kid glue sniffing was a big thing yeah it happens I mean I see this in a because I live in Wawa and you which is of course a tremendously associated and I'm not likely a disparaged place compared to a lot of other parts of Taipei and you see people going around and they're often on-house people and they're just addicted to sniffing glue

42:24and they're barely able to talk and you see them just going around if you look for the signs of it's actually in many places in Taipei and people should deal with it actually first and dealing with moral panic about vapes suddenly yeah smoking and drinking would be I think healthier I think glue sniffing yeah definitely eats legal anyway yeah I mean you can actually hold a conversation and it's smoking and drinking you see these people and they are really really not there but I think doing this policy will stick around or you think it's one of these policies Brian it's just going to disappear they're going to just going to try to forget about it I think I think we'll eventually forget about it I mean that's the fate of the Gongguan cage for example for smoking eventually it was dismantled they usually call on the media for the press event when they launch these policies but in the end when they've you know put the box away they usually don't call the media again talking of the smoking pavilions pavilions I'm calling up it's like strong work the smoking pavilions the smoking rooms of course there was a big stink about the brine because apparently homeless people were going and using them

43:27right yeah and that's the other thing is that basically I think again the city has tried to put a lot of issues regarding homeless people out of public eye because they don't want to have trust they're conditioning yeah so if you sleep there it's much better than sleeping out and in the meantime the city has demolished a lot of the park and they're currently renovating quote unquote but it's a question like were they trying to demolish the place where homeless people stay because there's roofs and so of course they all dispersing other parts of the area and then for homeless people they collect the cigarette butts and they can finish them so it's a good deal and on that facetious note from Dimitri we'll leave this week's Taiwan this week here on ICRT and I'll be joining the students today by Brian Hute and Dimitri Bures what's going to be here and thanks for tuning into this week's edition of Taiwan this week here on ICRT with me Gavin Fips and then we're going to check out Taiwan this week's podcast new favorite podcast app when you access all our previous shows tuning in again next Friday evening for another informative look at the top stories of the week we've Taiwan this week and don't forget to also check out our podcast on our website

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