A John Prine Appreciation

0:00This message comes from Cure Alzheimer's Fund. From family to community, connections, and the memories they make are everything. Cure Alzheimer's Fund empowers scientists pursuing bold Alzheimer's research. Learn more at curealz.org. This is Fresh Air. I'm David Beancoot. You know that all trees just grow stronger and old rivers grow louder every day. Oh, people just grow longsum. Wein for someone to say, hello in there. Singer songwriter John Prine isn't around to celebrate what would have been his 80th birthday tomorrow. He died six years ago of complications from COVID-19.

1:00But it's being celebrated in a big way anyway, by family and friends, in a five-day series of events in and around Chicago that have begun already, held in support of the family's hello in their foundation. Last night, a tribute concert was held hosted by John C. Riley featuring the songs of John Prine as sung by Steve Earl, Margot Price, and others. Documentary showings and other events continue this weekend, and today we'll add our own voice to the mix by honoring John Prine's music and legacy on today's Fresh Air. John Prine was born in 1946 in Maywood, Illinois. After a stint in the Army in West Germany, he settled in the Chicago suburbs in the late 1960s, attending folk music classes while working as a mailman. He wrote his first songs while delivering the mail, and eventually appeared in an open mic night at the 5th peg, a local folk club, to sing some of them. That led to more performances and a summertime weekend gig.

2:03At one of those shows, an audience member who caught his act was a local film critic who had gotten his reviewing job at the Chicago Sun Times a few years earlier. His name was Roger Ebert, and the story he wrote in 1970, John Prine's first review in print, captured the artist perfectly and helped him draw larger audiences. Ebert wrote, he appears on stage with such modesty, he almost seems to be backing into the spotlight. But Ebert added that Prine's music and lyrics were quite special. Prine's songs are all original, and he only sings his own, Ebert said, adding that he's closer to Hank Williams than to Roger Williams, closer to Dylan than to Oaks. Ebert noted Prine's ability in his lyrics to sketch a character in just a few words, and singled out with praise some of the very songs that would appear on Prine's first album the next year, Becoming Instant Classics. Hello in there, Angel from Montgomery,

3:03and Sam Stone, the story of a Korean war veteran who returns home with a purple heart, Shrapnel in his knee, and a morphine addiction. There's a hole in that is on, where all the money goes. Jesus Christ died for nothing, as opposed. Little pictures have big ears, don't stop to count the ears. Sweet songs never last too long, broken radios. Roger Ebert wasn't the only one to note the exceptional talents of John Prine. Fellow singers and songwriters paid particular attention. Chris Christofferson, after seeing one performance, champion Prine and helped him get his recording contract. Johnny Cash praised him early and often, as did Bob Dylan.

4:05In a year after John Prine's first album was released, Bet Middler took one of the songs on it and showcased it on her own breakout first album, The Divine Miss M. The song she championed was an ode to old people. One of the songs Ebert had loved so much. Hello in there. So if you're walking down the street sometimes, and you should spot some hollow ancient eyes, don't you pass them by and stay as if you didn't care. Say hello in there. Hello. After that exposure, John Prine attained even more notice and performed

5:06in recorded music the rest of his life. 18 studio albums in all, five live albums and countless concert appearances where fellow musicians continued to seek him out and perform alongside him. Performers such as Bonnie Rate, who once joined Prine on stage to turn his solo recording, Angel from Montgomery, into a very memorable duet. She made me an angel that flies from Montgomery, made me a poster of an old rodeo. Just give them in one fine, but I can hold on to you. To believe in this eleven is just a hard way to go. Over the years, John Prine clearly lost the on-stage shyness Roger Ebert had witnessed in the 23-year-old Neophyte performer.

6:08By the time he was introducing such comic compositions as the other side of town in his concerts, his setup was as funny and as self-assured as the song itself. There's a song about a man who's developed a special ability over a number of years. He's able to travel in his mind particularly when his wife just goes on just a little bit too long about something that he hasn't done. I read about this guy. You might think I'm here when you put me down, but actually I'm on the other side of town. My body's in this room with you just catching hell,

7:09but my soul is drinking beer down the road as well. You might think I'm listening to your gross release, but I'm a leaner and on a jukebox, and I'm about here, away there. John Prine released his final studio album, The Tree of Forgiveness in 2018, after surviving about with cancer. He won four Grammy Awards over his five decade career. In 2020, the Grammy's honored him with its Lifetime Achievement Award. John Prine died that year after contracting COVID-19. But in his final album, he offered some last words on the subject in a typically sly song called When I Get to Heaven. When I get to Heaven, I'm in Shake God's Hand,

8:09thinking for more blessings than one man can stand. Then I'm going to get a guitar and start a rock and roll band, checking to a swell hotel, an entire afterlife grand, and then I'm going to get a cocktail by Go and Jingerade. Yeah, I'm going to smoke a cigarette that's nine miles long. I'm going to kiss that pretty girl, on the tilt of the world, those little man is going to town. Terry Gross spoke to John Prine in 2018 just after the release of that final album. After a quick break, we'll hear excerpts from that interview. This is Fresh Air. Stay tuned for the following announcements and messages from our sponsors. This message comes from LinkedIn ads. Ever invest in something that seemed incredible at first, but didn't live up to the hype? For marketers, that's impressions.

9:09When ads don't create revenue, that's a tough conversation with the CFO. Instead, invest in results your CFO will love. LinkedIn ads generates the highest row ads of all major ad networks, so advertise on LinkedIn. Spend $250 and get a $250 credit. Just go to LinkedIn.com slash NPR pod, terms and conditions apply. This message comes from Capella University. You know that feeling when there's a spark building inside you that you were meant for more? That's your own drive pushing you towards what's next. Capella University gets that. With their Flex Path Learning format, you can set the pace and earn your degree without putting life on pause. You've built experience and know what you're capable of. Now, this is your time to turn that momentum into more. The only real question is, what can't you do? Learn more at Capella.edu. This message comes from AT&T.

10:10Right now at AT&T, you can get the new iPhone 18 Pro for $0 with eligible trade-in. It has the ultimate pro camera system and a big leap in battery life so you can turn this deal into a long-lasting connection. Connecting changes everything. Requires trade-in of $230 or more in eligible plan. Terms and restrictions apply. Subject to change. Visit an AT&T store for details. This is Frish Air. Today we're celebrating John Prime. The late singer, songwriter and guitarist would have turned 80 this weekend. He died of complications from COVID-19 in 2020. Terry interviewed Prime in 2018 after he recorded his final album, The Tree of Forgiveness. They started with the song Summers End, co-written by Pat McLaughlin. Brandy Carlyle sings Backup Vocals.

12:00The wind blows out wide open. Just come on home. Come on home. No, you don't have to be alone. Just come on home. That's John Prime from his new album The Tree of Forgiveness. John Prime, welcome to Fresh Air. It is a pleasure to have you here. Is there a story behind that song? Well, the big story behind that particular song Summers End. First of all, it's my favorite track from The Tree of Forgiveness. You know, it just came out so pretty. A good buddy of mine, Pat McLaughlin and I wrote that song.

13:01We've been writing together. We've been friends longer than this, but we've been writing together since my missing years record in 91. It's just uncanny the way we write together. I mean, we can finish each other's sentences. I'll just throw an image at him and he comes back with one. We don't really decide what the subject is that we're writing about. We just kind of go with whatever sounds good and it feels good to both of us. And the fact that that song ended up as pretty as it did and as long as many other things was a surprise to me. Because we were literally going like it was like ping pong. We were going back and forth with each of mine in the song. What about the melody? The melody is just another simple sound for me. Penn did melody. I mean, all I'm trying to do is play a freight train, I think.

14:01That was with that song. I just pick up the... Yeah, that's how I learned to finger pick was I learned how to finger pick playing and trying to pick like Elizabeth Cotton and Mississippi John Hurt. So much so that I used to put myself when I was 14 years old I'd sit in the closet in the dark in case I ever went blind to see if I could play. Wow, that's pretty strange. Yeah, you're telling me. So can you do it at mid you'd ever have to look down at your fingers when you're playing? I can't, my belly's too big. I can't see my ass. Good thing I practiced in the dark. You've been through a lot in the past few years. You've had neck cancer and lung cancer. Can we talk about how you were able to get back into shape to be able to perform and tour? I mean, the neck surgery severed nerves in your tongue. It damaged salivary glands. Did you have to learn to sing or speak again?

15:01I had to do some... They gave me a speech therapist. That was part of the therapy when I was just getting over the initial surgery, the neck surgery. That was a pretty big surgery. It was my first really big surgery and it was a big one. I didn't realize I had anything in my speech whatsoever. It killed some of the nerves in your tongue. I kind of made you have... I guess they would call it like lazy, you know, your tongue would just go to one side naturally and you'd slur some of your words. So I did some speech therapy but I told them... When I was going in for that surgery, I had talked to the surgeon and the radiologist and they had to do a lot of radiation on my throat right across my vocal cords. The radiologist was explaining to me he was going to make a shield from my vocal cords.

16:01I said, have you ever heard me sing? I said, if you leave me with something, if I could make a noise, I said, I'll come out with a voice on the other end. The surgeon told me my golf swing would improve after surgery. I said, I hate golf. So at least they're laughing with a voice to sing. I think you improved my voice if anything. I had always had a hard time listening to my singing before my surgery. So you got a new voice and you feel different about it? Yeah, it dropped down lower and it feels friendlier to me. So I can actually sit in a studio and listen to my singing played back before I'd run the other way. That's really surprising, I think. Do you feel like your voice sounds more lived in than it did before? I've heard singers complain that they've been through so much and you don't hear it in their voice. You know that they feel you don't hear it, that their voice doesn't sound as troubled as they feel or as worn as they feel or as experienced as they feel.

17:05Well, with me, my early recordings, I had a difficult time listening back to them because I was so nervous. I was kind of thrown into, I didn't expect to do this for 11 being record-nars. I would just play music for the fun of it and writing songs to, that was kind of my escape, you know, from the hum drum of the world. And everything happened so fast for me that I became record-nars before I knew it. And I just, when I was listening to my old records, I just hear this. Young, extremely nervous about it and make me learn right out of the room, you know, rather than listen to what he had to say. So, you know, in addition to the neck surgery that you had for cancer, a few years later you had lung cancer and you had an operation on one of your lungs. So what was it like to learn how to be able to get enough breath to support your singing?

18:07Well, luckily I had a friend who was a trainer, you know, I mean, individually trained people for either weight loss and stuff like that. We were friends, we just like to get together and be asked, you know. And when I told him I had to get the surgery, he volunteered to come to our house and help me get back and shape the ground of the road. He had me running up and down our staircase three times, then he put a guitar around my neck and it's sing three songs without taking a breath. You know, and this is all after losing half a lung. And that, I didn't know I could train like that. My wife didn't either. Because I hadn't previously put that much into training before. I like that because it's tailored to who you are and what you do as opposed to giving you, you know, just the standard exercises. Exactly. I'm no good with that. If somebody tells me to work or exercise, I go the other way. I'll come up with an excuse.

19:13So one more thing about the surgeries. I know you knew Roger Ebert and he gave a boost to your career really early on before anybody knew you. He gave you a great review when you were just performing in Chicago before you'd recorded. And I don't know if you remain close, but he had cancer and he had jaw surgery that basically left him unable to speak. I was wondering if you communicated with him at all about your surgery. I think he was still, you would have still been alive. Well, after Roger initially got sick, I had played a show and him and his wife came to it. And this was after my surgery as well as I was out of turn behind the missing years. And we got to talk a little bit, but obviously it was a social situation. It was more like we looked at each other like we're members of the club, you know, both having been through the surgeries.

20:17Yeah. Him, him even more so. He was really at the particular time that he wrote a review on me. I was a mailman step. And I was just singing this one night a week in the Chicago Club, the fifth peg on West Armageddon. And Roger had walked out of our movie that he was supposed to review for the next day. This was a Thursday night and Friday was the big day for the entertainment section in Chicago sometimes. And Roger's reviews, he always goes on page, the back page to the entertainment section. And he instead of reviewing the movie, he said he walked into this pub to get a beer because the popcorn was too salty in the movie theater. And somebody told him to go in the back room and listen to this kid. I was the kid. And he wrote a full page on singing mailman, delivers the message. I think I have to hand it.

21:21That's great. And I never had an empty seat after that. I was still, like I say, I was still making my living as a mailman. And I was singing after that three nights a week and two shows a night and there was a line outside. And things just got better from then on. This would have been about what, 1969? I was late 1970. Early 1971 is when I got my record contract. I had a record come out by August of 1971. Things happened really fast. John Pryne, speaking with Terry Gross in 2018. We'll hear more of his interview with Terry after a break. I'm David B. and Kooley. And this is Fresh Air. Stay tuned for the following announcements and messages from our sponsors. This message comes from Capital One. Capital One offers checking accounts with no fees or minimums. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See CapitalOne.com slash bank guy for details. Capital One in a member FDIC.

22:26This message comes from BetterHelp. BetterHelp is in network with more than 125 health plans with an average copay for eligible members of just $23 per session. Don't have eligible insurance. You can still get 10% off your first month. Visit BetterHelp.com slash NPR to explore your payment options. That's BetterHELP.com slash NPR. This message comes from Prylon. Want a look and feel your best this fall? Capital One's 5-day fasting mimicking diet is a clinically developed nutrition program with the goal of promoting fat loss while protecting lean body mass. Developed at USC's Long Jeviti Institute, it aims to assist the body in entering a fasting-like state that helps reset metabolism, target visceral fat, and support healthy metabolic markers. Get 15% off plus a bonus gift when you subscribe at prolonlife.com slash NPR. Today, we're celebrating the life and music of John Prylon on the eve of what would have been his 80th birthday. Prylon died of complications from COVID-19 in 2020. He was an inspiration to his peers, including Bob Dylan, and to a younger generation of musicians among them Phoebe Bridgers and Jason Isbel.

23:39In 2016, he was honored by the writer's organization Penn for lyrics of literary excellence. Let's get back to Terry's 2018 conversation with John Prylon. He had just released his final album, The Tree of Forgiveness. So let's talk about your background. You grew up in Maywood, Illinois. Was that like a small town outside of Chicago? Yeah, it's an old suburb, almost old as the city itself. It was right next to the suburb Oak Park where Hemingway is from. There was a stark difference between Maywood and Oak Park. Maywood was full of minorities. My mother and father came up from Kentucky and settled in Maywood because it was a...it had the American can company there. My dad got a job there in the 30s and helped organize the steelworkers union.

24:39So was your father from Paradise, West Kentucky? He was actually born down the road in Mercer, Kentucky, but he ended up over in Paradise because his father was a carpenter. He'd worked like a...he'd stayed three months in a town, ran a house and when the job was done he'd put his family up and moved to the next town. My dad went to something like other elementary schools and many different high schools too because his father moved around so much. But when he would get jobs, when my grandfather would get a job and then my father would end up in Paradise with all of his cousins from the Smiths side of the family. My mother was more enraged in Paradise. So you have a pretty famous song called Paradise. That's about Paradise, Kentucky and how beautiful it is and how the main character in your song wants to go back there.

25:40But his father tells him that it's basically too late because it's been hauled away by the coal trains. Did you see that happen to Paradise? I was in the army and my dad sent me a newspaper club in because he knew how much I liked Paradise when we would go there and my childhood. We would go there as often as we could to see my mother's sisters and my dad's family. He sent me this clip and said, that's it, Paradise is gone. They bought up the town toward the town down and stripped mine the whole area. So I wrote the song just after I got out of the army. I wrote it for my dad. I realized that years later that I just wanted my dad to put him in the song so he would know I was a country songwriter. He was a huge country music fan. I used to sing Hank Williams, senior step form and Ernst Tyde and Roy Cuff.

26:43I put on a little show for him when I first learned to play guitar. So let's hear Paradise and this is from your 1971 debut album, John Prine. When I was a child, my family would travel down to western Kentucky where my parents were born. And there's a fact where it's old town that's often remembered so many times that my memories are worn. And daddy won't you take me back to Mule and Bird County down by the green river where Paradise lay. Well, I'm sorry my son, but you're too late to ask him. Mr. Peabody's cold train is hauled in a way. Well, sometimes we can travel right down the green river to the abandoned old prison down by E. Grihill

27:46where the air smells like snakes we shoot with our pistol. But empty pop bottles was all we would kill and daddy won't you take me back to Mule and Bird County. So that's John Prine's famous song Paradise from his 1971 debut album called John Prine. So you grew up with a lot of country music because of your father. It sounds like you turned toward it as opposed to rebelling against it. Oh, yeah, I mean, I grew up with Rock and Roll. But when I learned how to play the guitar was from my oldest brother Dave. Dave is 10 years older than me. He was a guitar himself. I played fiddle and mandolin and guitar and banjo. So he came from like an old-timey country music thing. And also he was big into the folk boom of the early 60s.

28:50And so when he taught me to play guitar, that's the kind of music I learned to play because that's where he taught me. He gave me a car or family record. I learned all those songs and not too long after that I started writing my 14. And my melodies always came out like old-timey country stuff. And at the same time I was trying to please my dad and wanted to sing some of his favorite songs that he listened to the radio on. And so I learned an entire Hank Williams senior and album, a live record, well the stage pattern in between. I used to repeat the pattern in between the songs. I did everything but skipped when the record was skipped. I learned that verbatim. Your father died when he was 55. He had a massive heart attack on the front porch of your home. How old were you when that happened?

29:52I was 24 and my first record was a month away from being released. So he never heard it? No, I borrowed a tape recorder from another family and I had a quarter inch tape and I took it to the house. And I played that record for him. And the last song on the record was Paradise. So when that song came on he got up and walked into the dining room. It was dark in there. And he sat in the dining room while Paradise played. And he came back in the room afterwards and asked him, how come he left? Left the room when I called it his song because he knew it was his story. And he said he wanted to pretend it was on the jukebox. But I think he just did more and see him with tears in his eyes. He wasn't like he was a sick man like in the hospital or anything.

30:53He had a massive heart attack sitting out on the front porch watching the cars go back. So when you returned from being in the military and serving in West Germany, you moved to Chicago. You moved from a suburb outside of Chicago to Chicago and you became a mailman there. What neighborhoods did you deliver mail to? Oh no, I became a mailman in the suburbs. Oh, it was in the suburbs. Yeah, I never moved into Chicago. I stayed in the suburbs to move to Nashville. Oh, I didn't realize that. I was only like 10 miles directly from the lakefront. That's how close Mayward was to the edge of Chicago. We grew up on Madison Avenue, which is the dividing line between North Chicago and Northside and Southside. So we grew up going both Cubs and socks games. So did you still live with your parents when you came back from the military? No, I got married when I was in the service.

31:53I was an Italian American girl. She was my high school girlfriend. We lived in Maros Park, the Italian community that bordered Mayward. How long did the marriage last? That one lasted. I like to say that one lasted. Well, I have the married three times. That was at 13 years. That's pretty long. So... Congratulations. Well, you've been married to your wife now for over 20 years. We got 23. Yeah, yeah. So was being a male man a good job for somebody who was writing songs in their spare time? It was great because... There's really not much to do when you're a male man.

32:53Maybe some male man make a rent to an actual job, but once you're out there on the same street every day and you recognize the house as you know you're on the right street, you just go out there and stick the mail in the mailbox. In other words, I used to like my mail route to a library with no books. It was like my imagination was free of your own. The whole time I was out in the mail route. I wrote a lot of my first record walking out in the mail route. Was that like maybe a good thing that your body was kind of occupied with walking the mail route, but your mind was free to think about lyrics without having to sit in a chair? Yeah, because you mind him when we think about the weather. Well, yeah. I mean, it's a joke out there really. I was never so happy as the day I left the post office. The dark. What time were you delivering mail? Dogs. Oh, dogs. Oh, the dogs. Yeah, the ones at bite. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Were you bitten?

33:54Yes. Yeah. I got bitten in the best possible place. Oh, and ripped my pants and I had to go over to the yard. That was really embarrassing. I had my mail man outfit on with the ass or your pants tore out in a dog bite. You looked like a cartoon. Yeah, I think I've seen that cartoon. And there you go. I was the cartoon. So I want to close with another song from your new album. And I can't decide whether to play boundless love or I have met my love today. Do you want to choose one from those two? Well, yeah, boundless love. I got an interesting story about. Tell me. I wrote that with three buddies of mine, David Ferguson, Dan Arbok from Black Keys, and Pat McLaughlin, thought I mentioned earlier that we wrote for about 30 years now together. Anyway, the four of us started with being good idea to get together and try and write some songs.

34:59I think specifically we were going to write them for Dan Arbok's solo project. He's got two solo records out now. And we wrote six songs in two days. And I didn't think any of the songs were for me. I thought we were writing them for Dan. And one of the songs was the song boundless love. And Dan didn't record it when he went into his solo project. So I looked at it when I was trying to gather songs up for the tree of forgiveness. And I liked the song except I didn't think it was enough of me and like a John Prime. So I called up Dan and said, I'm going to John Prime this song up. And he said, what do you mean? I said, well, instead of the word food, I'm going to put frying pork chops in. And I said, I got the whole thing. I want to replace the whole second verse with my old heart. It's like a washing machine. Bounces around until my soul comes clean.

36:00So Dan laughed. And that's what I did. It was just John Prime to song up. And it came out really pretty. And now I consider it kind of my song for my wife Fiona foundless love. Well, let's hear it. And John Prime has been a great pleasure to talk with you. Thank you so much. Thank you, Terry. And forgive my sin. Surround me with your boundless love. Confirm me with your boundless love.

37:05I was drowning in a sea. Lost as I could be when you found me. So with your boundless love. Sometimes my old heart is like a washing machine. Bounces around until my soul comes clean. And when I'm clean, when hung out to drive, I'm going to make you laugh until you cry. Surround me with your boundless love. Confirm me with your boundless love. I was drowning in a sea. Lost as I could be when you found me.

38:07So with your boundless love. John Prime speaking with Terry Gross recorded in 2018. A new collection of John Prime's music is out today. It's called Found Dogs and includes alternate takes, acoustic solo performances, and five previously unreleased Prime originals. Let's close with the last song Prime ever recorded, which was released two months after his death in 2020. It's called I Remember Everything. And it was recorded in his living room. I've been down this road before. I remember every dream. Every single blader of grass. Old to special place for me. And I remember every town. And every hotel room. And every song I ever sang.

39:08When you get out of town. I remember everything. Things I can't forget. The way you turned and smiled on me. When the night that we first met. And I remember every night. Your ocean has a blue. I miss you in the morning light. Like roses miss love, dude. That's John Prime singing I Remember Everything, written with his longtime friend and writing partner, Pat McLaughlin. Coming up, Justin Chang reviews the new film Fiord, starring Sebastian Stan and Renata Reinswe. This is Fresh Air. Stay tuned for the following announcements and messages from our sponsors. This message comes from Capital One. Capital One offers checking accounts with no fees or minimums.

40:11What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See CapitalOne.com slash bank guy for details. Capital One in a member FDIC. This message comes from Prolon. Want a look and feel your best this fall? Prolon's five day fasting mimicking diet is a clinically developed nutrition program with the goal of promoting fat loss while protecting lean body mass. Developed at USC's longevity institute, it aims to assist the body in entering a fasting-like state that helps reset metabolism, target visceral fat, and support healthy metabolic markers. Get 15% off plus a bonus gift when you subscribe at prolonlife.com slash NPR. This message comes from Satva. Have a big day coming up. Remember, tomorrow starts tonight with the restorative sleep you need to perform at your best. The kind every Satva mattress is designed for. So whether it's the first day of school, a new job, or an important presentation, Satva helps you be the best version of you. And now, say 15% off purchases of $1,000 or more at satva.com slash NPR.

41:14That's s-w-a-t-v-a.com slash NPR. The new drama Fjord takes place in a small Norwegian town in which a recently arrived couple, played by Sebastian Stan and Renata Reinsvay, suddenly stands accused of abusing their children. The film, which won the top prize at this year's Khan Film Festival, is the latest work from the Romanian director, Christian Mungio, known for his acclaimed dramas like Graduation and Four Months, Three Weeks, and Two Days. Fjord opens in theaters this week. Our film critic, Justin Chang, has this review. The gifted Romanian writer-director, Christian Mungio, makes tense, realist thrillers that lay bear his country's history of corruption and authoritarianism. In Beyond the Hills, he took aim at intolerance within the Romanian Orthodox Church. In his 2007 masterpiece Four Months, Three Weeks, and Two Days, he laid bear the cruelties of the communist dictatorship in the late 1980s.

42:19That film won the Palm Door at Khan, and announced Mungio as a major international talent. A few months ago, Mungio won a second Palm Door for his new drama Fjord, which in many ways marks something of a departure. It's his first movie, Shot Outside Romania, but even in a fresh setting, his eye for institutional oppression and hypocrisy is as sharp as ever. Sebastian Stan and Renata Reinsvay give superb performances as a married couple, Mihai and Lisbet Georgiou, who have just moved from Romania to a small town nestled among the Fjords and mountains of Norway. They have five children, the oldest is in high school, the youngest still in diapers. They're also strictly observant Christians. In this scene, which features mostly English and some Romanian dialogue, they're singing hymns at home with some church friends when they get a visit from a friendly neighbor, Mihai, and her teenage daughter, Nora.

43:23I'm a fan of my father, I receive my signs, and I am happy all the day. What a scene for the first time. Hello, Mr. Cheney. Hello. Are we interrupting? No, please come in. Come in, Mihai. Come in, and greet your new neighbors. No! We brought some gifts for the newcomers. Oh, so you're right. The townspeople are welcoming at first, and Moonshu uses wide shots and long takes to immerse us in this open, bustling community. But things get unfriendly fast for the gyrgues. One day, a school administrator notices that their eldest daughter, Elia, has bruises on her back. And over here is her and her brother talking about having been disciplined by their parents.

44:27A call is made to child protective services, and with dizzying speed, the five gyrgues children, including the baby, are taken away from their parents and placed in foster care. The rest of the film follows Mihai and Lisbet's efforts to get their kids back, pitting them against an unyielding Norwegian legal system. In the testimonies that emerge, we learned that one of their children had expressed anti-LGBTQ opinions in class. This raises the question of whether the gyrgues were targeted for abusing their children, which they vehemently deny, or for refusing to adopt the progressive, secular, humanist values of their new home country. For all the acclaim and awards it's received, Fjord has proven remarkably divisive for a Moonshu movie. Although the story was inspired by a widely publicized case from 2015, involving a Romanian Norwegian family that endured a similar ordeal, some critics have accused the film of reducing the European welfare state to a straw man villain,

45:31an overreaching government entity that denies parents due process. Others have claimed that such responses merely prove Moonshu's point about the intolerance of the left, and how tribalism and racial and religious discrimination can arise even in ostensibly inclusive communities. For my part, I found Fjord to be a blatantly yet skillfully manipulative drama that craftily withholds as much information as it reveals. Moonshu traffic's an ambiguity, sometimes to the point of coinness. The episodes of alleged physical abuse are strategically obscured or kept off screen. A plausible alternate explanation for Elias Bruz's emerges, but it's never confirmed. Fascinatingly, the kids themselves never come right out and say whether they've been physically abused, and their silence on the matter feels dramatically evasive, but also from a parent's perspective, eerily fitting.

46:32It's as if the film were saying that, with or without state interference, our children begin to become unknowable, drifting away from us the moment they're born. I thought a lot about my own kids while watching Fjord, and the outrage I feel if they were taken away from me. I also sifted through my complicated feelings about my own distant evangelical Christian upbringing. Stan and Reincevez performances, full of tightly controlled sorrow and fury, make it easy to feel from Mihai and Lisbet, and to believe that they're genuinely good-loving parents, whether or not you share the rigidity of their beliefs. And I suspect that deep down, it's that rigidity that Moonshu takes the most issue with. It's no accident that the most sympathetic character here is that friendly neighbor, Mia, who turns out to be an attorney and agrees to represent the parents in court, noting at one point that she feels a moral obligation to defend the minority.

47:33Mia, for her part, isn't religious. Yet she's one of the few characters here who fully embraces the biblical commandment, to love by neighbor. Justin Chang is a film critic for the New Yorker, he reviewed Fjord. On Monday's show, Mahershala Ali, in his new film, Your Mother, Your Mother, Your Mother, he plays a devout Muslim father of three who also is a professional killer, and suddenly is left to care for his children after his wife dies. Ali won Academy Awards for Moonlight and Green Book, becoming the first Muslim actor to win an acting Oscar. Hope you can join us. To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram at NPR Fresh Air. You can subscribe to our YouTube channel at youtube.com slash This Is Fresh Air. We're rolling out new videos within studio guests, behind the scenes shorts, and iconic interviews from the archive. Fresh Air's executive producer is Sam Brigger.

48:35Our senior producer today is Teresa Madden. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorock, Ann Marie Baldenado, Lauren Crenzel, Monique Nazareth, Thaya Chaliner, Susan Yacundi, Anna Bauman, and Nico Gonzalez Whistler. Our digital media producer is Molly Cvnesper. Our social media video producer is Hillary Kissinger. For Terry Gross and Tonya Mosley, I'm David B. and Kooley. Stay tuned for the following announcements and messages from our sponsors. This message comes from Prolon. Want to look and feel your best this fall? Prolon's 5-day fasting mimicking diet is a clinically developed nutrition program with the goal of promoting fat loss while protecting lean body mass. Developed at USC's Long Jeviti Institute, it aims to assist the body in entering a fasting-like state that helps reset metabolism, target visceral fat, and support healthy metabolic markers.

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