After Show: The Salem Strangler

0:00This show is sponsored by Progressive Insurance. You're listening to this podcast, so I know you've got a curious mind. Here's a helpful fact you might not know yet. Drivers who switch and save with Progressive save over $900 on average. Pop over to Progressive.com, answer some questions, and you'll get a quick quote with discounts that are easy to come by. In fact, 99% of their auto customers earn at least one discount. Visit Progressive.com and see if you can enjoy a little cash back. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates, National Average 12-month savings of $946 by New Customer Surveyed, who saved with Progressive between June 2024 and May 2025. Potential savings will vary. Hi everybody, welcome to 2020 The After Show. I'm Debra Roberts and, as always, it's so good to have you with us. We've got a really, really incredible story to bring to you. We're going to take you, as always, deeper inside our 2020 episode. Our most recent one was called the Salem Strangler.

1:01And it takes place in a picturesque New England town that has a history, as you might imagine, for some darkness, the Salem Witch Trials. Well, I went to Salem Mass to bring you this report. And it is one that I am still thinking about, about a close-knit family and Irish Catholic family whose lives were forever changed one summer day. The story revolves around a young woman, 20-year-old college sophomore Claire Gravel. She was one of six children, as I said in a proud Irish Catholic family, known to be fun and feisty and crazy about sports according to her family. She had just begun her life, really. She had moved away from home to begin college, and it was on the cusp of living out her dreams. Well, everything seemed to be possible for Claire, until one summer night in 1986, when after a softball game, she went out with friends to a popular local bar and everything changed. She was seen leaving the bar around 1 a.m. and never seen alive again.

2:05And the next day, sadly, Claire's body was found along the side of a road, just a few miles from where she lived. Well, understandably, her family was absolutely shattered with no idea about who or why someone would do such a thing to her. Well, investigator Elaine Gill was among those first officers on the scene, asking the same questions, and she would spend years trying to solve this mysterious murder and hold someone accountable. If you saw our 2020 on Friday night, you met Elaine, and if you didn't, well, you're going to get a chance to meet her now, because what followed was a decades-long search for answers, twists and turns and heartbreak, and ultimately a DNA breakthrough, which we're going to talk to her about. Questions that were haunting this family for so long. How did the killer manage to allude police for an unsolved murder for nearly 40 years? Well, Elaine Gill dedicated much of her life to answering these questions, and she is joining us now. Elaine, such a pleasure to meet you. Oh, a pleasure to meet you as well. Thank you for having me.

3:06Thank you for being with us. And I say meet you to see you again, I should say, because you are already in our 2020 story on Friday night, and you brought such heart and passion, of course, to this story. But I want to start off by talking a little bit about you. I am always so intrigued when I have an opportunity to meet female detectives, because many of you started during a time where there weren't many of you in law enforcement, and you've been in law enforcement now for 40 years. You were commanding the investigative unit in Essex County before you retired. And I'm just really curious about you, because at that time, you weren't that much older than Claire Gravel when you had, when you started this case. Yeah, that's true. It is true. I came on to the state police in Massachusetts in 1982. And I was 20 years old when I went to the state police academy. And so when the homicide happened, when Claire was killed, I had been on the job for about four years, and had recently moved into the investigative unit that would oversee working on homicides in that county.

4:08Well, take me back to 1986, because the world was a very different place. Of course, you know, technology. We didn't have cell phones. And as I said, there weren't a lot of women in investigative units like this. Was this your very first homicide or had you worked others before? This was my very first. I had investigated other sudden or unattended deaths that took place in the county well in the unit and investigated other cases as well and assisted in other homicide investigations. But this was the first where I ultimately ended up as the primary investigator. And take me back to you at that moment. So this young woman is found murdered, strangled, dishevelled alongside a roadway. She's not much older than you, but of course, you've got to go into work mode. Where did you begin and what emotions do you remember? So when we got the call, our office was in Salem as well. And we got the call of the report of the body found on the highway on 128 in Beverly. When we first arrived at the scene, our objective was obviously to try to find and figure out how she got to this location.

5:11And so we spoke to some individuals that were at the scene who actually found Claire's body and then made our observations, spent quite a while observing the scene, seeing what we could glean from any evidence there. And ultimately, once we had Claire's body removed to the medical examiner's office, we then wanted to backtrack and figure out how Claire got there in the first place and through going to her address, we kind of learned about what her activities were before she was last seen playing softball. It was with friends. And so we wanted to track down those friends and see if we could figure out Claire's last movements and what was going on her life prior to her being killed. Yeah, which was so important and so shocking too in this area when you think about her family, what do you recall about that at the time? Because this was a very close knit family, as I said, and then this horrible thing happens and also shakes up the community.

6:12Yeah, everybody was devastated when they heard the news. Claire was from a wonderful family. I've had a lot of conversations with their family and they're just amazing people. And to have to talk about the loss of a daughter, a sister, and then also to talk to her friends who, you know, were out celebrating and just having a good time with Claire. And for them to learn that the person that they loved, that they had fun with, they socialized with, that in one moment that they had seen her in the next moment she was gone and ultimately gone from their lives. And then the investigation goes on and on with no arrest. How frustrating was that for you because as time goes on, I mean, literally years go on to the point that now you're thinking about retiring, but still nothing on this case. Yeah, it was really frustrating. I worked with amazing investigators on the case and people from the discreet attorney's office and we kept plugging along. Anytime we'd get some new information, we'd try to follow that up,

7:13see if it would lead us anywhere. I kept in touch with Claire's mom on a, on a fairly frequent basis, calls died off for after a while, but I tried to keep in touch with her and give her any updates if we had any. I felt like it was, you know, it was like my responsibility as an investigator. I was assigned to this case and my responsibility was obviously to try to solve it and get the truth. And so, yeah, I was getting worried some to me and upsetting to me, knowing that I'd be retiring and possibly the case might never be solved. And that definitely haunted me. And I wanted to find a way to, you know, finally get some justice for Claire and for her family. Well, the mystery goes on until about 2007. We want to talk to you more about it because there was a major break. We need to sneak in a break, though, for ourselves first. But when we come back, we're going to talk to Elaine Gill about how an unusual type of DNA technology that you may not have heard of before this case, I certainly had not. But it helped lead to a person nobody would have expected. So you don't want to go anywhere, stay with us.

8:15We'll be right back. This show is sponsored by my mom's murder, a podcast from Audible. Lauren Maloy spent 30 years thinking her mom had died of natural causes. That's what everybody told her. That's what she believed until one day she got a phone call that changed everything. A woman claiming to be her mom's best friend told Lauren that her mother was actually murdered and that no one had ever investigated it. Well, she became kind of a detective. She pulled the threads knocked on doors and confronted the contradictions. And what she found was worse than she imagined. Something happened to Laurie Maloy. Someone killed her. And Lauren won't stop until she finds out who the system may have given up on her mom but family never will. Listen to my mom's murder wherever you get your podcasts. Audible subscribers can binge all 10 episodes early and add free right now.

9:18Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts. This show is sponsored by Progressive Insurance. You're listening to this podcast so I know you've got a curious mind. Here's a helpful fact you might not know yet. Drivers who switch and save with Progressive save over $900 on average. Pop over to Progressive.com, answer some questions, and you'll get a quick quote with discounts that are easy to come by. In fact, 99% of their auto customers earn at least one discount. Visit Progressive.com and see if you can enjoy a little cash back. Progressive casualty, insurance company, and affiliates. National average 12 month savings of $946 by new customer surveyed who saved with Progressive between June 2024 and May 2025. Potential savings will vary. Welcome back to 2020 the after show. Many of you are true crime followers and you know that we've seen some extraordinary advances in forensic DNA technology over the years.

10:18Leading to breaks and decades old cases, many of our reporting on 2020 has revolved around those stories, including last Friday show. So I'm here with retired Massachusetts State Police Detective Lieutenant Elaine Gill, who was in the thick of the Claire Gravel murder case, one that she spent decades investigating when something finally did happen and she had retired, but she was able to actually see some of this through. So let's talk about what was available to you, Elaine, back in 86 when Claire was found murdered. I mean, you know, so much has changed now, but back then, science was still trying to catch up to what you needed, right? Sure. So I mean, in 1986, so many of the things that we sort of take for granted today did not exist. You know, obviously DNA testing was really just beginning, but also the things like, you know, cell phone data and the widespread surveillance cameras we have everywhere. That police rely on quite heavily today to try to solve homicide cases or databases,

11:21computer data, all those things didn't exist in 1986. But we were responsible to gather whatever evidence we could. And in this case, we felt that the evidence, some significant evidence, was located on her shirt. And in Claire's case, it was very obvious that the murder weapon was her tank top, that she was strangled with her own tank top. At that time, we might be able to get the blood typing from some samples, but we were not able to really do DNA. But our objective was to collect all the evidence and make sure we preserved it. And so that anytime, if new technology came along, we could take advantage of that and hopefully gain something from the evidence we had. In this case, we made sure that we preserved Claire's tank top and the rest of her garments that she had on and anything we found to see. Yeah, it's always fascinating to me when I cover these stories because, you know, these boxes of evidence are stored and every now and again, from time to time, investigators,

12:24and maybe there's somebody new on the scene. We'll pull out that evidence and run it, you know, through the system. And now they're using new technology to see maybe if there may be a hit. You stayed up on the advancements of technology. And then there was something that you had heard about called touch DNA, which I was not familiar with. Tell us a little bit about what that is and why you thought that would make a difference in this case. So typically people would look for blood or seminal fluid or saliva to gain DNA from. And then I started to read about the science and watch as it progressed and learned a little bit more about touch or handler DNA. Potentially, DNA might be able to be found as a result of somebody touching an object or piece of clothing and possibly leaving some Chinese skin cells or material that's oils from this skin, if you will. And so as I followed that, I thought of Claire and I thought of her case and the fact that she

13:25was strangled at this tank top and remembering so clearly how the tank top was twisted and used to strangle her, I felt that there'd be a good chance that the person who so aggressively twisted that tank top had left their DNA possibly in the twist of the material. And so I spoke with the Disrotorance Office and they agreed that I should submit the evidence. And then I contacted the state police crime lab. Yeah, when you first submitted it. And as I said, you were about to retire. You hadn't retired at that point. You were kind of getting close to it. But this was so fascinating to me because we are so accustomed to DNA that involves liquid, like you said, blood or saliva and things like that. But this is all about touch. So then in 2007, a man named John Kerry, unrelated to this case, at least as far as anybody knew, was convicted of attempted murder against a woman named Rosemary Diskin, who happened to live not far from where Claire had been strangled.

14:26And I had a chance to meet Rosemary, who I have to tell you is still very shaken up by this terrifying experience, attacked in her own kitchen. Her son was upstairs. She told me she was cooking. And it was just something that she just couldn't believe. It was a man that she knew kind of vaguely. She knew his wife. He golfed in the same circles as her husband. He shows up at her door one night and then comes into home, basically, an attacks her and tries to strangle her. Now he's eventually convicted. He's tried and convicted and sent to prison. Nobody thinks much more about his involvement, really. But how did he land on the radar of those who were investigating Claire's murder? Yes, he was convicted of strangling this woman. Claire had been strangled. But there was no real connection. How did he land on the radar of police? He landed on the radar, thanks to DNA technology, basically. The DNA goes into a system called the Codis system. It's stored there. If somebody gives

15:28the DNA because they're a convicted felon, they're going to prison in Massachusetts. He was required to give his DNA. Evidence sets gathered from crime scenes, maybe unsolved cases. Also, if they locate DNA on that evidence, they submit it to that same database. And so that's what's happened in this case, that the DNA that was found on Claire's tank top was put into the Codis database along with John Kerry's DNA. And the system runs and audit every so often, and it ran an audit, and it found a match. Yeah, like Bingo. Wow. Yeah. Well, I had an opportunity to meet Claire's brother, Jim, and this family was so devastated. And for 40 years, no answers. No answers. And sadly, Claire's mom died before there was a able to be a conviction here. But you actually had spoken with her and you told her that you were not going to give up, and that you believed that you finally

16:29had actually found the person, the suspect you've been looking for. Do you remember the conversation of what it was like helping that family finally feel that maybe they were about to receive some justice? I do. Yeah. So I would keep in touch with Mary, Claire's mom, like I said, fairly frequently in the months and years after Claire was murdered. And then the call slowed down at times. And it was discouraging for her when I talked to her, and I really didn't have anything new to provide. But then in 2012, when I got that information, I was given the okay to call Mary Gravo. And I told her that after all this time that it looks like they have a match. That there's been a DNA match to a particular person, the person that we believe had killed Claire with her tank top. At the time, I couldn't tell her name. Only that it looks like we finally, after all those she has had a match. So it was gratifying to tell her that. It was emotional. And I think it

17:34was emotional for her too. In one way, I expect her to be very excited. But I think she still was a little skeptical after all the years of waiting. Just wondering, is this really going to happen after all these years? But at least it was a step and I was glad that I was able to tell her that before she had passed away just a few years later. Yeah. Which was major. Well, Carrie, John Kerry was already in prison. As we said, when this happened, then in August 2022, a grand jury actually indites him in this case. He pleaded not guilty, but everything was about to change, of course. It had to be a moment of relief for this family. And of course, Elaine, as you said, a big one for you, well, we're going to get a quick break in. But we want to talk to you about what it was like to finally go to court. Because you actually finally got that satisfaction of seeing this case come to fruition. So you stay put, Elaine, and don't you go anywhere because we're going to talk more about that trial when we come back. Game day is here. And with Instacart, you never have to miss a play for a snack run again.

18:38Get veggies, chips, dips, and drinks delivered right to your door, along with your groceries for the week. One order, everything you need from stores you know and love. Download the Instacart app and get delivery in as fast as 30 minutes. Welcome back to 2020, the after show. We're taking a closer look at the murder case that took decades to solve. That is the one of Claire Gravel. It aired on Friday night's episode called the Salem Strangler. Elaine Gill was the detective on that case for so many years. Elaine, you spent years searching for this killer only to find out that he was already behind bars. But John Carrey, the man who finally was a match when the department used touch DNA to try to solve this case. What went through your mind when finally you knew that this case was actually going to go to court? And what was that like for you even because you were still involved even though you had retired? There was a lot of emotions really. I was very grateful to everybody that had worked

19:43together. Ultimately, it was a whole new investigation. Once we got the DNA match that meant a whole new investigation into John Carrey and learning about him and his life. And so I was so grateful that the DisriProtourney's office in Essex County and the other members of the Massachusetts State Police and anybody else involved jumped in and really got on board with me and was so passionate about making sure this case went to the end. And yeah, it was gratifying. It was a relief. I felt like finally, after all these years, after all the work that everybody did, we finally have an answer in that unknown person. We finally have a name, a face, and that, you know, the family hopefully would get some kind of justice at this point. Yeah, 40 years of waiting. Claire's brother Jim told me that he was there every day. He wanted to represent and be there for the family. What was that? Like, take us inside that courtroom because now it's also a big moment for you too. You had begun

20:44this case. You were just a few years older than Claire when you started investigating. Now you're staring at this man who's accused of her murder. What was that like for you as you looked at him? You testified in the case. Tell me a little bit about what that was like in the courtroom. It was emotional and the interesting thing is in all the years on the state police and testifying in many other homicide cases, I never felt the emotion that I felt when I entered that courtroom really, and seeing him finally seeing this person who had matched the DNA to Claire's murder weapon, finally seeing John Kerry and having a face now that fits with this person that we believe was in the bar that night and that murdered Claire. In his demeanor, really? It was unusual at times. Sometimes, you know, he was serious, but at the time, he would have a smirk. When I testified, I could see him smirk at times, smile at times. And so watching him through that whole trial

21:44was interesting to see his behavior and his mannerisms and that kind of thing. But I knew he was sitting in the defendant's seat, he's on trial. And he has to answer for what he did to Claire. And so it was very emotional because we were very, it brought us close, even closer with her family. You know, we had conversations and supporting one another. And to see all of the investigators that was still involved and had taken over when I had retired, everybody come together and everybody be there. The portions of the trial, it was, it was pretty amazing. It was basically, you know, it sounds a little corny, but you know, teamwork really to make this happen. Yeah, well, I'm sure it was a sense of satisfaction. He pleaded not guilty. On March 3rd, 2026, a jury found him guilty, a first degree murder. And he is indeed serving life in prison without

22:45parole. Was there finally for you after carrying this case and being haunted by this case for 40 years? Was there a sense of justice finally for you? What did you feel when it was finally over? Her brother Jim said to me, interestingly, they have been fighting and fighting for so long. It was almost like they didn't know what to feel after this. How about you? A huge sense of relief and accomplishment, but more importantly, I felt so happy for the family that finally this moment had come. And we embraced at the end and thanked each other basically for sticking with it all along. But I did. I felt like, you know, as I was saying before, I felt like it was my responsibility. That's my job. That was my job to, I chose the job of being an investigator when I was on the state police. And that's that in that job, I had a responsibility to try to see cases to the end and to solve cases. And the fact that this case was unsolved for so long,

23:48I felt responsible for that. And I felt that I needed to do something to try to keep this case alive and keep it going. And ultimately to find who killed Claire. And so, yeah, I mean, hearing that the jury determined that he was guilty of Claire's murder, it was really gratifying. And I felt like all the steps that I took with the other investigators, whether that was making sure we preserve the evidence correctly, you know, that was satisfying that we did it right. Well, you clearly had a big impact on this case, your dog at determination and, you know, seeing this finally resolved must have been gratifying for you. You now work in college public safety at Merrimack University, actually working with young people about the same age Claire was at that time. You're also a mom and a grand mom. What do you want people to take away from Claire's story? Or even any lessons maybe for young women, we often talk about that in these stories. Maybe there's something that they can take away from our 2020 pieces, anybody that, you know, something

24:51that might be helpful. Any lessons from this that you think that women might be able to protect themselves in learning from you? Sure, I think, you know, I don't want women to be afraid, first of all, but I just want them to be aware of their surroundings, aware of the people that they interact with. And I think, you know, when we're, as we grow up, we're taught to be polite to other people, right? And, and so I think sometimes that tends to happen that people, they might have a bad feeling in their stomach, that got feeling that maybe this isn't okay, but they don't want to come across as rude so they think, oh, maybe I'm overreacting. But I want people to know that they need to trust, trust they got, trust their instinct, but also as bystanders, if they see things, you know, their friends, you know, in the college setting, they're, they want to have a good time and celebrate with each other similar to like Claire was doing with her friends. And so in those situations to just really keep an eye on each other and to intervene if they see something that's just not

25:57great or that's concerning to them. Yeah. Elaine, it's such a pleasure to not only speak with you, but have you in our report and also to witness your dedication to the work that you do and what you did for this particular case. I mean yours is really a message of hope and we thank you so much for spending some time with us. Oh, thank you very much for having me. I really appreciate it. Thank you for telling Claire's story. Of course, of course, well, you can of course, all of you out there can find 2020 on Friday nights on ABC and you can stream episodes like this one anytime on Disney Plus and Hulu. Take good care everybody. This show is sponsored by Progressive Insurance. You're listening to this podcast, so I know you've got a curious mind. Here's a helpful fact you might not know yet. Drivers who switch and save with Progressive save over $900 on average pop over to progressive.com answer some questions and you'll get a quick quote with discounts that are easy to come by. In fact, 99% of their auto

26:58customers earn at least one discount. Visit progressive.com and see if you can enjoy a little cashback. Progressive casualty insurance company and affiliates National average 12 month savings of $946 by new customer surveyed who saved with Progressive between June 2024 and May 2025. Potential savings will vary. This show is sponsored by Progressive Insurance. Insurance isn't one size fits all. That's why drivers have enjoyed Progressive's name and your price tool for years now. With the name your price tool, you tell them what you want to pay and they'll show you options that fit your budget. So whether you're picking out your first policy or just looking for something that works better for you and your family, they make it easy to see your options. Visit progressive.com to find a rate that works for you with the name your price tool, Progressive casualty insurance company and affiliates price and coverage match limited by state law.