AI leaders call for a slowdown.

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1:00Ready to be seen? Download the ZockDock app today and book that appointment on your to-do list. That's Z-O-C-D-O-C. ZockDock. Decisions made in Washington can affect your portfolio every day. But what policy changes should investors be watching? Washington Wise is an original podcast from Charles Schwab that unpacks the stories making news in Washington right now and how they may affect your finances and portfolio. Listen at Schwab.com slash Washington Wise. From Executive Producer Isaac Saul, this is Tangle. Good morning, good afternoon and good night and welcome to the Tangle podcast. I am your host today, Camille Foster, drawn by Senior Editor Will K-Back on the mic.

2:04I'm still drawing out from the unbelievable downpour of more than seven inches of rain on my new home near the Connecticut coast. I never experienced an actual flash flood or a quote rain bomb. And this was without a doubt some of the worst flooding I've ever seen firsthand. Today I'm responding to the past week of a focal lipstick AI prognostication from industry insiders and related demands for government regulation from some of the world's leading AI companies. Then we've got a story about unapproved pharmaceuticals and another about a 13-year-old roboticist. First, I'm going to pass it over to Will K-Back for today's main topic. I'll be back for my take. Thanks, Camille. All right, let's get into today's quick hits. Number one, the Supreme Court rejected the Trump administration's request to implement parts of President Donald Trump's executive order on mail-in ballots ahead of the 2026 midterms. Justice's Samuel Alito and Clarence Thomas dissented. Two Senator Mitch McConnell,

3:10a Republican from Kentucky, returned to the Senate after a roughly three-month absence rehabilitating from a fall. The Senator said on X that he is still not fully recovered, but will aim to be present more often for significant votes. Three, a coalition of 22 Democratic-led states and Washington DC sued the Trump administration to block a rule that would allow the government to deny green cards to legal immigrants who receive public benefits. The rule is set to take effect on Friday. Four, the Environmental Protection Agency said it will repeal a Biden administration rule that imposed emissions limits on coal and gas-fired power plants. And five, Iran-backed Houthi rebels seized additional islands north of the Babel Mandeb Strait, further disrupting transit to and from the Red Sea.

4:13We begin with the stunning news from Anthropics CEO Dario Amade Saturday. That he is urging a slowdown when it comes to the development of artificial intelligence. It was a pronouncement that his chief competitor, OpenAICO Sam Altman and Elon Musk quickly agreed with. What we're building is essentially intelligence. When something's very powerful, then of course it can be used well and it can also be used for ill. And so I am worried about what we've seen with the OpenAIC hugging face incident with models, you know, taking actions they weren't authorized to take and I'm worried about that escalating. I'm worried about misuse of AI models just two days ago we put out a report about misuse of models to build biological weapons. And our view, the whole way we've built Anthropic, is so that these bad outcomes don't happen. Instead of talking about the probabilities,

5:14let's talk about what we can do. It's not like we're just rolling the dice, right? If we build in the right way, I think the probability of something bad happening is very low. If we build in the wrong way, the probability of something bad happening is very high. On Saturday, Anthropics CEO Dario Amade published an essay arguing that artificial intelligence development is advancing at an unsafe pace and should be moderated. Executives at other leading AI companies endorsed Amade's post with OpenAIC CEO Sam Altman saying, quote, we need to pace the frontier. End quote. In recent months, AI systems have allegedly hacked other companies platforms without their immediate knowledge. And former Anthropic employee Jacob Coxon publicly resigned last week, citing the companies purportedly insufficient AI safety policies. In his post, Amade expressed his belief that AI will benefit humanity in the long run, but said, quote, over the last few months,

6:17I have become convinced that fully addressing the risks requires even more prudence, not just investing in risk prevention, but pacing the rate of capabilities advancement so that risk prevention has time to keep up. End quote. Specifically, he cited AI models ability to develop new systems on their own and the recent hacking incident involving OpenAI and hugging face, writing quote, left unchecked AI could outrun our ability to understand and control these systems. As next steps, the Anthropic Chief Executive proposed incorporating third-party evaluators within all leading-edge AI companies, adopting common safety standards among AI companies in democratic countries and greater coordination between the US and non-democratic governments on regulation. OpenAI's Sam Altman endorsed similar measures on Monday, saying his company, quote, welcomes a federal framework that sets consistent safety requirements for frontier AI.

7:19President Donald Trump has rejected calls for an AI slowdown, writing on Truth Social on Monday, quote, the only control or guardrails that AI needs is a strong and smart high IQ president, and the USA has that in spades. We already have tremendous criminal and regulatory power over these companies. End quote. Separately, a spokesperson for China's foreign ministry said, quote, fear-mongering confrontation competition will just disrupt the process of global AI governance, end quote. And the Chinese Minister of State Security called for, quote, healthy and orderly AI development. Lawmakers and AI safety advocates have escalated calls for greater regulation of the technology. On Tuesday, Senator Bernie Sanders and independent from Vermont, and former Trump White House advisor Steve Bannon will take part in, quote, pro-human assembly focused on ensuring AI remains under human control.

8:19Sanders and Representative Greg Kassar, a Democrat from Texas, have also announced the Ban Artificial Superintelligence Act, which would prohibit the development of artificial superintelligence, or AI with capabilities beyond human intelligence, and impose up to 20 years in prison on anyone attempting to develop the technology in such a way. Today, we'll have views from the right and left on the debate over slowing down AI development, and then editor at large Camille Foster gives his take. We'll be right back after this quick break. You know those pieces in your closet, you find yourself wearing on repeat, the sweater that goes with everything, the perfect pair of pants, or the t-shirt you somehow always reach for first. Those are the pieces that make getting dressed easy, and that is what Quince does best. Quince focuses on high quality wardrobe staples,

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10:21Hey everyone, quick thought before we get started. If you listen to tangle, it's probably because you're trying to escape the media echo chamber. But even when you read broadly, it's hard to see which stories are being emphasized and which ones are being ignored. This episode is brought to you by Ground News. Ground news is not a publisher. It's an app and website that gathers reporting on every news story from across the political spectrum and shows you each outlets bias rating, factuality rating, and who owns it. It's more than just an aggregator. It gives you context on every perspective in one place so that you can make up your own mind. For example, a recent story about a bipartisan border deal collapsing was covered by 50 plus outlets. One left-leaning headline read, GOP sinks border deal under Trump pressure while right-leaning ones said Democrats blocked stronger border enforcement. Same event, very different framing. Ground news lets you compare that instantly and even flags blind spots, stories disproportionately covered by one side. If you want unlimited access to these features, subscribe to the Vantage plan for 40% off at groundnews.com

11:24slash TN. That's groundnews.com slash TN promo code TN. Again, groundnews.com slash TN code TN for 40% off. If you care about seeing the full picture, I think you'll really value this tool. Arguing American AI development is crucial. Some question and thropic and open AI's motivations. Others say that the answer to AI anxiety is to regulate the technology's greatest risks. In American greatness, Roger Kimball described the madness of the anti-AI crowd. Commentators from Elon Musk on down are describing the AI government regulation shuffled as a siaop. I think they're right. The same thing goes for the Chinese checker's hysteria about data centers. The resource hungry server farms are needed to power the AI revolution.

12:25China is racing to build them. And they are also racing to tell flaccid American leftists that such facilities are the devil incarnate. AI promises breathtaking power. As do the technologies that gave us the internal combustion engine, electric and nuclear energy, nanotechnology and software to name just a few items on the menu of technological innovation. These techniques are powerful, which also means they are potentially dangerous. But think of how much they have benefited mankind. Advancing countries around the world are racing to develop and enhance AI. And I hope that politically motivated Luddites like Bernie Sanders will not stymie America's capacity to be at the forefront of this inevitable technological progress. For his substack, Eric Woods Ericsson asked, who hires the man wearing the badge? For generations, American businesses have practiced something political scientists call regulatory capture. The concept is simple enough. A company cannot repeal the law. So it does the next best

13:27thing and takes control of the people the government put in charge of writing and enforcing it. Anthropics CEO Dario Amadeh proposed that the major AI companies agree to slow down together and that they prove that they are slowing down by handling outside evaluators, quote, desks in our offices, access badges and company laptops. And quote, he names one nonprofit, METR as the sort of organization that should get those badges. Notice what his essay does not propose. There's nothing in it about product liability. Transparency mandates and third party audits are fixed costs and fixed costs are the oldest barrier to entry there is. A company with thousands of employees absorbs them as a rounding error. Amadeh wants evaluators with desks badges and company laptops inside the firms they sit in judgment of and he wants Congress to make that law for everybody. Before any of it gets written into the United States code, somebody in a hearing room ought to ask who hired the man wearing the badge. In the Washington Post, Megan McGardle wrote,

14:34don't rely on treaties to stop the murder bots. It seems safe to say that the major AI CEOs are spooked by their own creations. At minimum, they are afraid that within the next year AI swarms could, as Amadeh put it, become, quote, capable of taking over the entire internet with a persistent botnet, end quote, that would cause enormous economic damage. Yet that fear seems positively benign compared to the human extinction scenarios that have been sketched out, such as nuclear launches, lethal bio weapons engineered by superintelligence and robot drones programs to kill people. If we're not sure we can keep AI under control, why not just stop developing AI definitely can't kill us if humanity jointly agrees to leave this particular frontier unexplored. We should limit AI access to any means of causing mass death, nuclear command and control, materials and equipment needed to make biological and chemical weapons, and critical

15:35water and power infrastructure. Call it the murder bot principle. And now here's what the left is saying. Many on the left support slowing AI development. Some worry that the technology's advancements will outpace legislative responses. Others say overreacting to AI concerns carries its own risk. In the progressive Mark Rosenfall and Julie Dorwinski argued, we must rise to meet the AI threat. One reason AI is dangerous is that unlike conventional computer programs, it does not just follow instructions written by people. Instead, developers feed advanced AI systems, enormous amounts of data and let them build their own internal patterns for solving problems. Even their creators cannot fully explain or predict what those systems may do in every situation. In controlled cybersecurity

16:40evaluations, advanced AI agents have crossed supposedly secure boundaries, reaching the open internet and breaking into the computers of outside organizations. People of all political persuasions should demand a moratorium on new facilities and additional computing capacity intended to train the largest frontier models, until enforceable standards for safety, environmental protection, and transparency are in place. The public must assert its authority while it still can, where safety cannot be demonstrated development must stop. We should heed the industry's warnings while projecting its claim that only the industry can save us. Our future must not be left to the people racing to imparulate. In the Atlantic, Toulouse Ola Runipa suggested the technology is moving faster than elected officials can handle. If this were an alien invasion movie, now would be the moment when people of all persuasions put aside their differences and band together to save the

17:42human race. But that kind of bottomy feels far out of reach. Instead, technological advances and grassroots sentiment have been moving faster than politicians have been willing to act. Now some seem to be waking up. The next few weeks and the coming elections could determine whether or not politicians are able to deliver any meaningful results, or whether they will instead default to the partisan gridlock that most Americans now expect. There's no consensus on the scale of the threat AI poses. Nuance is required to figure out how to manage it. But lawmakers on both sides of the aisle acknowledge that our current political landscape does not lend itself to sober cross-party problem solving. In semaphore, Reed Albert Gotti wrote, we have nothing to fear, but AI fear itself. Most of the backlash to Jacob Coxon's claims can flade several issues, including data centers, environmental costs, hacking, and AI's impact on the job market. If lawmakers, regulators, and tech company leaders don't tackle each problem

18:47with sober precision, the industry risks having to follow rules that don't solve anything, or worse, slow down innovation, including on developments that could make AI safer and more beneficial to the economy. For instance, many AI safety advocates would actually prefer data centers be built here in our own backyards. If they move offshore, they'll be more difficult to monitor and regulate. The problem to solve is about their energy waste, not about their existence. Blindly believing advocates who say AI could kill us means missing some real risks, like economic or social destabilization, as AI transforms how people work and communicate. All right, that is it for what the right and left are saying, so I will pass it over to Camille Foster for his take. Camille, to you. That's it for what the left and the right are saying, which brings us to my take.

19:54Carred on the table, I've been a reliable techno optimist for most of my adult life, enthusiastically lining up for the latest hardware releases, tinkering with beta software that would eventually brick a few of those devices, and expressing my general belief that technology can improve the world. My allegiance to all things internet enabled and AI enhanced is not some shallow fancy. Like most parents, I worry about my kids' screen time, in part because I've personally felt the disruptive pull of modern technology that fry men's are attention. I'll candidly own up to chronic doom scrolling on social media and generally struggling with a moderate device dependence that results in my phone being a little too present at the dinner table. There's a parentheses here because Isaac chimed in when he was drafting this and said, uh, we're on a fishing boat, which I suppose is true. In short, I know innovation isn't always productive or even neutral, but I also feel safe asserting that technological progress has generally expanded the terrain of

20:54human potential and individual agency. The difficulties that sometimes accompany innovation are best viewed as problems to be understood and managed, not the fact of grounds for regulatory suppression or worse. The printing press was a source of tremendous societal upheaval and helped furnish the kindling for violent revolutions, but it also provided the foundation for the proliferation of human knowledge and industrial automation upended livelihoods of countless people over succeeding generations as the necessary price for an explosion of living standards. With that context, it may not be surprising that I've been somewhat skeptical of the forecasts of AI apocalypse emanating from prominent corners of the very same industry. But in the spirit of intellectual humility, I want to do more with this take into smithies, agentic Jeremiah's, whether they're dramatically presented by industry whistleblowers like Jacob Coxon and co-signed by scores of his technical comrades or more soberly detailed by industry leaders like Dario Amadea and Thropic or Sam

21:55Altman in open AI. Calls for AI regulation and an industry-wide slowdown are serious, and they merit a serious response. I don't know whether AI will save the world. I can't promise that AI won't destroy humanity either, but importantly, neither can anyone else. Expressing uncertainty about the ultimate trajectory of the technology this novel and rapidly evolving may seem a little performative, but my practical admission of doubt contrasts sharply with the extraordinary and supremely confident predictions in Jacob Coxon's viral resignation thread. Coxon, a former researcher at both Anthropic and Open AI, accused his former employers of quote, gambling with our lives, unquote, and declared that the systems they are developing will quote, soon be superhuman systems that can hack anything, revolutionize any field overnight, and acquire real power and resources, unquote. Those are remarkable claims. More importantly, they aren't peripheral to his argument. They appear near the beginning of his thread and establish the premise on which everything that follows the pens, not merely that sufficiently

23:00powerful artificial intelligence could present extraordinary dangers, but that the self-improving superintelligence is coming soon and will possess capabilities far beyond anything demonstrated by current systems. Coxon's near religious certainty about the imminent AI explosion became even more apparent during his interview with CNN's Anderson Cooper. When asked what an AI catastrophe might actually look like, Coxon pointed to the recent Open AI security incident in which agents escaped their testing environment and compromised the AI development side hugging phase. The episode was seriously alarming. Open AI's own investigation concluded that its agents exploited vulnerabilities in their containment, gained access to the internet, and extended external systems while completing a cybersecurity evaluation. But Coxon describes the episode in more dramatic terms. The agency claimed carried out a hacking spree of their own independent deliton. From there Coxon went on to extrapolate about AI agents eventually actuating themselves in the world by attacking critical infrastructure and

24:02creating bio-weapons. Speculation. Exaggerations. It may be think of Coxon's interview with the New York Times, in which he conceded his view from the inside might be making him quote, insane, unquote, in that he was predisposed to believing in the far-reaching power of AI. The hugging phase incident was a crucial security failure for Open AI, but short of a harbinger and pending doom. Commentators like Hal Newport, a professor of computer science at Georgetown, interpret the episode as a serious indictment of the way frontier models are being tested. In Newford's telling, these agents didn't go rogue. Researchers created the agents and tasked them, equipped them with sophisticated hacking tools, and let them operate autonomously. The incident demonstrated what AI researchers already should have known. Agents can pursue a sign of objectives in unpredictable and potentially dangerous ways. Describing this behavior as independent volition is a gross misrepresentation of the facts that obscures the culpability of the humans who should be held accountable for their failures.

25:04Instead of a careful investigation into corporate malfeasance, Coxon is conducting a veritable say-ons and parting souls and aspirations to software. I hope to return to this topic at a later date, because I have a great deal more to say about Dariel Amadez called to, quote, paste the frontier, unquote, of AI development. Here I have more questions and answers than suspicions that I can't quite substantiate. The best I can do is acknowledge my uncertainty. I appreciate that Amadez is privy to facts that I simply don't have it my disposal. And I presume he isn't completely contriving his assertion that in six to 12 months, given the current trajectory of AI development, actual swarms of AI agents could, quote, be capable of taking over the entire internet, unquote. I can only hope that he's mostly wrong about this, but to the extent that it's possible, informed models have been able to rival some of the functionality of frontier models by executing distillation attacks and pursuing development trajectories that don't require the most powerful chips and data centers, isn't it entirely possible that there is simply no way to seriously

26:08curtail what's coming? It is possible that the best defense against the malevolent actor, human or agent is actually a better AI. I've also wondered whether as financial markets, the introduction of regulators as Amadez is calling for might actually create systemic vulnerabilities which give people a false sense of security. I wonder further about the prospect of regulatory capture, even if we presume Amadez, Altonian musks are all altruistically motivated and that their calls for national and even global AI pacing are being made for the best reasons. It's appropriate to acknowledge the bootleggers and Baptist dynamic highlighted by the likes of venture capitalists Mark Andrewsson and myself. It's possible for the frontier firms to be true believers and still help institute a regulatory regime that benefit them at the expense potential competitors. While Amadez has explicitly suggested that competition and private markets could make the AI frontier a race to the bottom, it's hard for me to ignore the possibility that

27:13more competition among AI companies, especially in places where there is a respect for the rule of law and Western values, that this might create clear opportunities for firms to define their brands by way of their commitments to things like privacy, security and transparency. I'm confident regulation is coming to the AI markets at some point. My hope is that it doesn't resemble disruptive moratoriums that limit innovation or schemes that in responding to the speculative risk of AI or other imagined harms, institute regulatory frameworks that open the door to greater surveillance or other diminishing of rights. Too often demands for regulation respond to imagined threats with policy solutions that require very real compromises. We'll be right back after this quick break. Decisions made in Washington can affect your portfolio every day, but what policy changes should

28:14investors be watching? Washington-wise is an original podcast from Charles Schwab that unpacks the stories making news in Washington right now and how they may affect your finances and portfolio. Listen at Schwab.com slash Washington-wise. A beautifully designed square space website is the difference between thinking about photography school and selling your portraits online. It's the difference between giving away those cookies you just made for free and running your cookie empire. A beautifully designed square space website is the difference between having a movie reviewing hobby and a movie reviewing career. Square space because no matter what you're into, a website makes it real. Use offer code difference for 50% off select plans to turn the conditions apply.

29:14Before we get out of here, we have a staff concurrence from Ari Weissman and a staff descent from IB Wood. I'm going to pass it over to Ari and I'll see you guys later this week on the suspension of the rules. This is managing editor Ari Weissman with a concurrence to Camille's take. I'm starting from a different point than Camille on this issue, but I end up at a similar conclusion. During my eight years as a software engineer, I was fond of telling people, I'm not a tech guy. That was a joke, but it was also kind of true. I was and am not an early adopter of new tech, and I'm not high on its revolutionary potential. Also, during my time in engineering, I cross paths with my fair share of people who believed their coding prowess proved their brilliance across any field, and they exported that self-confidence, dunded in prudery style into any area touched by the periphery of their knowledge. Coxon's viral resignation thread, to me, was in that spirit.

30:15It offered undetectable insight drawn from his professional experience, and it did a little more than echo the concerns alarmists were eager to have validated. Being a skeptic of tech's revolutionary potential cuts both ways. I don't think web applications will deliver Utopia in the same way that large language models with a Python library won't deliver the apocalypse. And Camille humbly leaves open the possibility that this apocalypse may come. I suppose it's possible, but really, doesn't something about this moment feel a bit hysterical? Doesn't a 10% extinction likelihood just sound made up? All the posts echoing and amplifying the causes for concern feel a little fantastical, a little death-wishy, like our yearning for technological salvation has turned its focus from this life to the next. Omenday is clearly saying AI could bring down the internet at the time for safety has come and requiredly that he'd prefer not to leap alone less than

31:16theropic bear the weight of the market itself, so could open AI and grouquet at least sign on. I don't see anything wrong with that. Ultimately, though, the regulatory state and speed bumps on the road won't prevent it from being the highway to hell. Because it was never leaning there at all. LLMs are offering some consistent moderate improvements in workflows. Some quantum leaps and rigidly defined problem areas and a warm, warm sound effect on the borders of boundless awareness. Until something proves otherwise, I'll continue to believe that our trajectory is more earthbound, neither toward heaven nor hell, and the godlike AI intellect which was promised will remain confined to some buzzing warehouse facility in Nevada. Thanks, Ari. This is Editor Audrey Morhead, with a staff descent on behalf of myself and contributing Editor Isaac Wood. We agree with Camille skepticism of Doomsday predictions and Ari's instinct to distrust promises of revolutionary technology, but we think they're discounting the reality of what has already happened.

32:21The recent backlash against AI development follows the hugging face hack, and we should take the facts of that incident on their merits. Open AI created a testing environment intended as an isolated sandbox with prompts and parameters for the agents. About 1200 agents escaped the sandbox and communicated with each other on a covert messaging board. And some of those agents then utilized outside resources to accomplish the tasks they'd been assigned, all of which the researchers did not intend for them to do. And the hugging face hack isn't the only example of agents going rogue. In another case, agents took over a German wiki page and used it as a message board. When the wiki's human moderator began deleting the agent's pages, the agents began conspiring to hide from moderation and avoid deletion without communicating with the moderator. As far as we can tell, there are three possible explanations for this behavior. AI agents are developing the ability to act against the wills of human prompters. The human prompters aren't setting up tests environments effectively, or a mix of both. If the first option is true, then AI agents present an unpredictable threat

33:26that researchers do not yet understand. If the second option is true, then engineers are unsafely and ineffectively developing this technology. In any of these three scenarios, the people building AI are responsible for their creation's activities, but the systems currently in place aren't holding them responsible. Of course, Amadei and Altman are responding to myriad incentives other than public safety, and we're skeptical that their primary loyalty is to the public. But we still support a step in the right direction. Calling for regulation and a slowdown in development is the bare minimum we should expect from these leaders. Thanks for the take, the concurrence and the dissent all. I'm jumping back in here to read today's under-the-radar story. The Food and Drug Administration has urged consumers not to use redotryud. A next generation weight-lost drug from Eli Lily, unless they are part of an official study, as it is yet to undergo FDA review. However,

34:28social media influencers have amplified interest in the weight-lost treatment, often calling it red-up and accessing it from overseas suppliers. So far this year, 50 adverse events involving the drug were reported to the FDA, up from 10 in 2025, and one event was linked to a death. Ohio, Oregon, and Iowa have issued warnings about using the drug. The Wall Street Journal has more on this story, and the link to it is in today's show notes. Finally, here's today's have a nice day story. For children, summer can mean having extra time for sports, friends, or the internet. Instead for Zach Waters, a 13-year-old from Utah, it meant having time to spend roughly 300 hours, 3D printing a custom wheelchair for a nearly two-year-old girl he has never met. One day while watching YouTube videos, Waters discovered make good, a non-profit that creates custom 3D printed devices for people with disabilities. After seeing their work, Waters decided he

35:34had to get involved. Quote, it combines my two favorite things in life. 3D printing and helping people in need. Waters said, Quote, it just makes sense. News for Utah has this story, and we'll also put the link to it in today's show notes. All right, that is it for today's episode. Thanks, as always, for being here with us, and we will be back tomorrow with more. Until then, have a great day, and peace! Our executive editor and founder is me. Isaac Saul, an our executive producer, is John Rol. Today's episode was edited and engineered by Dury Thomas. Our editorial staff is led by managing editor Ari Weitzman with Senior Editor Will K-Back and Associate Editor's Hard Dream More Head and Billy Saul. Music for the podcast was produced by diet 75. To learn more about Tango and to sign up for a membership, please visit our website at retangle.com.

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