Being Real

0:00Thank you for listening to UPAI's Dartmouth podcast, an extraordinary series of talks from some of the finest teachers in the world. I'm Joan Halifax, founder of the UPAI's End Center, and we're happy to make these podcasts available to you. Please consider making a donation so we can offer these recordings freely. You'll find a donation but on our podcast page. And thank you so much. This is Dharma Podcast at thermaportcast.org. This is episode number 2661. It was recorded on September 16, 2026, and it is titled Being Real. The speaker for this episode is Frank Ostersesky.

1:08Nice to be with you all. I see old faces of old friends. Very sweet to see you. And I know a lot of you are staying on through the Kruna Circle, which is really delightful. I'm really glad you're sticking around. Yeah. And I'm grateful to my old friend, Rochi, for showing up tonight. It's very kind of you to come. No, it gives introductions, which are really hard to live up to. But I come to UPAI because Rochi asked me. And when she asked me, I try to come. But one of the reasons I come is to hang out with Noah. Because I learn a lot about kindness from him. I'm glad to hear that.

2:15Some of you know Kathy Fisher. He's taught here a lot. We were together for something recently, I forget what it was. She was talking about Baker Rochi. And she said what she learned from Baker Rochi was to pick things up and put things down. To treat everything with respect. So tonight, I wanted to try and talk about being real. One of my favorite pastimes. One of my old teachers was very fond of saying being real is a risk and an adventure. I mean, what will be left when all the concepts are gone?

3:20Who will we be? And how will we see the world? And what kind of feelings will we have? And how will we see other people? And how will they see us? How will my friends recognize me? We don't really know. There's no way to know. No way to find out what to do. So he would say sometimes being real happens when the noise has subsided. And the complexities dissolve. And we are experiencing ourselves just as we are in the true condition. Not the reflection on that, not the picture of it, not the echo of it, not the memory of it, not the reaction to it.

4:31Being real is what we are. What we truly are. What we experience in this very moment. And being real at least in my experience doesn't require that we experience anything in particular. I think it's more about a way of being. To be real means that we need to be able to live in a way that reflects reality. And what we truly are. So I don't know, but it seems to me at the heart of Buddha Dharma. It's about reducing or transforming or ending suffering. And that comes about. It seems through an ever-expanding awareness of reality. Now it functions.

5:35So Zazen is an intimate and immediate way of being real. I was telling Noah that when my son was younger, high school, you know, he'd go out to school. And as he'd go out to the door, he'd say, keep it real, dad, keep it real. And I never was quite sure what he meant. It seems to me that practice being real is the same as practicing being oneself. What do you think? Yeah, that's how good. I made that up. So it'd be real means we need to live in a way that reflects reality, reality of who we are. It'd be real means I'm not pretending to be myself. I'm not being in reaction to someone or something else or to some image of me.

6:42Yeah, if we're honest, and I hope we'll be honest tonight, will you promise to do that? So I hope we'll be honest with each other tonight. And I think that if we really are truly honest, most of us often are living in the idea of the story of ourselves. We sort of toss out into the future and then we try and live into. Instead of being real, instead of living in this fresh moment. So I don't know, I was thinking about this. I thought the best approach to being real is to learn how to be where we are. Whatever we are experiencing in any moment in time, that's it's all a manifestation of Buddha nature. And if we allow our experience, if we embrace it, if we hold it, if we allow ourselves to feel it, rather than resisting it.

7:45Well, then we give it the space to unfold, to show itself. And when we do that, it naturally unfolds because that's the nature of our true nature. So the thing I wanted to really talk about tonight is that to me being really indicates some measure of self-love. Okay, the love of what we are actually. And so we want to move toward it. We want to move toward what's real in us. It's something beyond us. It's not something that we don't know. It's actually something that we've tasted. And because we've tasted it, I think we want to come closer to it.

8:51And that, to me, at least is a wholesome wanting. And I think that we are in love, balanced by wisdom and appreciation. That I think is essential in our spiritual practice. I think without love, I think we're on the risk of doing the practice for the wrong reasons. So I'm not speaking about some egocentric self-cherishing. I'm really something, and I know. Where are we? I don't know. I haven't had a two to about ourselves and others. It's not about claiming or anyone or anything. This doesn't seem so to me. This love is all inclusive.

9:53It's the motivation and the fuel for the journey. And it's inseparable from the realization. So this is making sense to you so far. You'll get there. I'll get there. Better way to say it. So when we slow down, you know, we settle into the stillness of our practice, into the lived experience of this, oh my precious human life. We recognize that we love this quality of realness, where it's on the sake. Not because of what it does for us. So we want to be real because we love the experience of being real. Of being completely who we are.

10:54No part left out. We love reality. And we like all the manifestations. We love reality. I love reality. I love to feel it, to see it, to swim in it, to be as much as possible. Because otherwise it's not about our preferences being met or a... Because we realize some special attainment or... something that other people don't know. I don't think I do it because it's good for me. So all those things might happen.

11:55We might attain special states. You know, we might have some remarkable experiences. We might become wiser. But I also know that being real means allowing unexperienced pain to surface. So we need to be... We need to love actually being genuine and real in order to go through the trouble and discipline of inner work. Because it's not so easy, right? You're... I'm just looking to you for verification. You know, the... The Bapasana teacher, Christina Feldman, she used to say, the eightfold path is a rocky road. It's uncomfortable in a liberating way.

12:58So I don't meditate to become a good person or a spiritual person or an idealized version of me. I meditate to be real. No reality. And if we're interested in being really naturally become interested in becoming as clear as possible about the experience of reality, however it's showing us. Whether however it's showing itself rather. So if I'm feeling anxiety or anger, I'm aware of it, right? Not from some distance. Not like a bird on my shoulder or something. But directly feeling the emotional state, right? Observing the activity of mind and the related attitude of mind. In the physical manifestations and discerning the free marks of existence. The nature of what's happening, as it's happening.

14:02What mindfulness is firm and it's noticing penetrates right into the object. And it can immerse itself in the breath, for example, quite literally pervade the breath, right? Inside... It's a fully embodied presence being real. And through it we understand that there's no separation between body, heart and mind. This means awareness receives and knows directly, intimately. Awareness knows through immediacy. And to me, at least, love of truth is essential in that process. When you love someone, you want to find out everything about them.

15:04Do you remember any of you remember falling in love? Yeah? You want to know everything about them, don't you? Yeah. You want to be intimate with them. I have a friend of mine and he fell in love well back. He lived in the United States and his person he fell in love with lived in the Netherlands. And so I said, well, how's that working out? And he said, oh, it's great. It's really great. I talked to her last night for eight hours. I said, eight hours. When you talked around the phone for eight hours, he said, yeah, it's fantastic. It was really great. Wow. I mean, supposedly brought that same curiosity to knowing ourselves.

16:04I mean, who knows what that actually even means. I mean, how are you going to try and be yourself? And it's not like, you know, you've got a stack of selves on the shelf somewhere. And you just pick that down and become it. Being aware of who you are can only arise from love of being where you are. I don't think the thing particularly esoteric in this. I mean, right now you're experiencing something, aren't you? I mean, go ahead, try to not be aware. See if you can do it. You can't. Don't make a big deal out of it. If you're sensing something, you're experiencing something, pressure of your body against the cushion, right, or the chair. Sound of my voice.

17:06The air in the room. Some emotional flavor, maybe. Appreciation. One could hope. Or a complete boredom, maybe. This is natural awareness. Being conscious of the present experience. I was thinking as we were all coming in, settling into the hall. The beautiful soundscape of Zen practice. You know the bells and the horn, shuffling a feet on the floor and creaking up chairs and slips lining of socks. You know, I'm just speaking about consciousness at the six sense doors.

18:08Six sense spaces. Gear consciousness, eye consciousness, nose consciousness, etc. Gear consciousness, it just simply reflects or registers the presence of a sound, just like a mirror reflects an image that it's held before. Consciousness knows. Mental factors, you know, like craving in a version of Big Three. They're on wholesome qualities and they obstruct a clear seeing. They continue ignorance, they. They can really obscure our consciousness. Then there's mental factors like interest and tranquility and their wholesome and lead us to wisdom.

19:15So mindfulness is that enhanced quality of mind that's wholesome. And with mindfulness present, it's always wholesome. It always wholesome. Because it includes the quality of acceptance. Mindfulness is this steady, unwavering, remembering, remembering the present, remembering intention, remembering as an anchor. Years ago one of my teachers, Joseph Goldstein, used to say, mindfulness doesn't wobble. It was his way of talking about it. He said, you know, normal mind is like a cork on the water, he would say. And mindfulness is like a stone that you drop to can go deep. And it can maintain continuous contact with an object. It's a vehicle, mindfulness, for growing in wisdom.

20:20All my... I sometimes get too attached to my words. So a few things to keep in mind in being real. Bringing awareness to the present moment, every moment moment by moment. That means paying attention to what's going on. Don't make a big deal. Simply ask, what am I aware of in the moment? What am I sensing, feeling, observing? You can't be where we are if we're not aware of where we are.

21:25So what's the truth of your experience right now? You won't recognize where we are if we're resisting being where we are. So the other practical suggestion I have is keep your hands off your experience. You know, it was so busy meddling with our experience. You know, ordinary minds complicate things. Now are we experiencing yourself? Whatever rises in your awareness, leaving alone. See, it's trying to do something to yourself. I mean, keep your hands off your inner experience. There's no need to manipulate it or change it.

22:26Please, learn to leave yourself alone. One of the things, no one was saying, I did a lot of work with people who were dying. One of the things I learned was to sit next to people and not mess with them. Not trying to help them have some experience. You know, or meet someone else's agenda, including their own. Just sit with them. It was often the most beautiful thing to do that and how exquisite it was to have that kind of relationship with each other.

23:26I was really curious to see if I could have a good death. It's hard enough to die. It's hard work. And then if you're trying to do it in accordance with someone else's agenda or what they think should be happening, oh my. That's a lot to lay on somebody in their time of dying. I mean, imagine you were with a person or a group of people that were telling you what to do all the time. I mean, how would you feel when you want to be free of them? I mean, often in our meditation practice, we develop these, we think we'll make us more spiritual. But if you're trying to change yourself to reach some special spiritual state or to have some particular experience, you're interfering.

24:30You're pushing consciousness in a direction. I mean, isn't it true? I have this. You may or may not have this. But I have it. I have this. I don't know. Create this idea where I think I should be. What I think I should be doing. How I should be experiencing something. And then I use that idea to not be where I am. Any of you do that? So we can be guided by the way natural awareness relates to whatever is happening. It doesn't do anything. It simply knows by being with it. It doesn't control. It doesn't direct. By knowing in this way, you develop insight.

25:30And when I say being with it, it's not like you're being with something separate, even. If you look carefully, you'll see that the object and awareness, they rise together. So to be where we are is a kind of form of surrender. We surrender to whatever is happening. I don't think of a position for against anything. Feeling something and I don't like it. I see my aversion. I don't try to chase it away. How will I know anything about aversion if I chase it away? Awareness simply relaxes with a balance of effort, embracing the immediacy of the sensing, of the feeling, of the observing. That's a kind of surrender. Even Mary, we have to really watch. We have to keep our hands off. Because what starts to happen is we start to say to ourselves,

26:31oh, that was really good surrendering. I wonder how I could get that again. How are you going to do that? How are you going to force yourself to surrender? Surrender means not doing. Surrender is not an activity. The absence of control, the lack of manipulation that allows for what's happening to unfold to be known. We have to remain aware of what's happening. Or our awareness will elude us. Meditation is something we practice, but ultimately engaging in inner practice

27:34and living life are not two separate things. Being real, learning to be real, that's our practice in every moment. And it leads to living a real life. And as we see the nature of the experience, we're seeing more truth. And each time we see what's true, more truth reveals itself. And so love of truth is essential in this process. I think the world needs more real human beings.

28:37I've said a lot of words. I hope I haven't exhausted you. But I'd like to take a few moments if we could to just see what's on your hearts and minds. Maybe you want to tell me a way that you interfere with the experience of meditation. Or maybe you want to share with me how you're open to your experience right now. I don't know. Or maybe you disagree with everything I said. That'd be okay. Would that be being real? Sorry. Would that be being real? I don't know. You'll know it. It's just that it came up for me this often. If somebody says to you, I want you to be real with me. It means I want you to give me your opinion. Your unvarnished opinion about something. Oh, yeah. I'm just wondering how that. Because for you, well, in such situations, I try not to answer.

29:40Because usually they don't. They don't. Yeah. So, I almost always, as you know, answer the question. So, what do you think they're actually looking for from you? You're asking me. Yeah. I think maybe to be seen to feel like they're real. The reality is being witnessed. Yeah. Maybe. I mean, you know, first thing you've got to be completely yourself. If you're trying to be anything for them, the whole situation is lost. So, you've got to be totally yourself, completely yourself. And maybe by doing that and not doing anything, they will recognize the opportunity to be totally themselves.

30:48And then maybe together you could be real. Good enough. No. I have more, but we'll let other people speak with you. If you have something else you want to, should we let them go on? No, no. Yeah, he's doing great. There's a. When you say, you know, we're real with each other. Yeah. Again, it comes up. It's like, okay, then I'm going to tell you what I think or what I feel. But the thoughts and opinions that are arising aren't really who I am. So then if I'm being real and I'm letting myself be who I am, is it not just giving voice to whatever thoughts and opinions I feel identified with? It sounded like from your presentation, it's more about not. Buying into those are not kind of giving those.

31:49Yeah. They're coming and going, right? All those things you were just describing. Sounds, I mean, thoughts and feelings, etc. To be real is to align with reality. You know, not just. Blabber out whatever's coming through our hearts and minds. To be real is to be grounded in reality. No way I'm this. But I'm not just my opinions and views. Well, what this person needs me to be in this moment or wants me to be in this moment. You know, it is when you do do a docus on and you're doing docus on with Roshie or someone you have a high regard for. Maybe you can be with all kinds of things. And it's their stillness that's an expression of their alignment with reality.

32:54Pretty much always. It's always required. Remember that wonderful feature we all were within Japan. We did one minute docus on. Yeah. I had a sense he was pretty real with the people who came through. Because he was real with himself. Real with reality. I mean, it's a funny word we're using real. I know because we think it's about being a particular way. It just means I am aligned with reality. Okay. Maybe somebody else has a comment. Thank you. I think it's an if people have a question, would please speak into the microphone. So we can all hear. Did you see your hand? Why you? I recently become one of the steward of the kitchen.

33:56And I find my Zazen deteriorating pretty badly. And in the sense my new reality is sitting there doing kitchen planning. Instead of sitting Zazen. So I'm hearing when you answer the question, when you say real, you do not mean the reality that is happening at the moment, but aligned with what Zazen is all about. Then I have to younger myself out of those planning. I don't know. I mean, the planning is going on, right? And you're figuring out the next menu. Thank you for doing that. By the way, it really helps all of us. That's a really big gift you give all of us. And maybe especially generous that you give us some of Zazen time. That's really gracious of you.

34:56I remember Ed Brown, I think it was, talking about this. He was saying he was doing the same thing you were doing. And then he realized, oh my God. I spent my whole period of Zazen planning menus. Oh, I could have been doing Zazen. That's what he thought. And then he got up and made the meal. That's how it was. You know, as you, Ed spent all his time in Zazen planning the menu as you did. And then he realized, oh, I've spent all my time realizing this. Or recognizing this rather. I spent all my time planning the meal. You recognized that. He didn't turn away from it. He recognized it. Oh, now he's here in this moment. It's not just something that's going out automatically. There's a recognition of it. There's an awareness of it. Now I'm back.

35:58Now I'm back. Right. Then he got up and made the meal. I don't have the option to get up and make the meal. No, I meant at the end of Zazen, he got up to make the meal. Yeah, but I think I'm doing this. Planning. Oh, no, doing that again. Coming back to Zazen. Doing the back, back and forth. Now I'm a, I run trip, you know, traveling agent now. But. How do you come back? Coming back to my breath, going back to the horror, going back to the sensation of the body, the posture. And once you had a two to mine with what you come back. I used to hate myself for not being able to hold my mind on Zazen. Now I'm like, okay, fine. So that's a little bit better than hating.

36:59Okay, fine. Okay, fine. I might be one step further than that. Sort of like, this is my reality. Yeah. Accepting it. Now awareness is here. Awareness was lost in translation, right? It was lost and then there was some reaction, etc. All that stuff that was happening. And now I'm back. You know what? Now I'm home again. Now we can, that's all. I was lost, but now I'm found. We say in the old spiritual. You know, you're busy planning, planning, planning, planning. And you're busy, busy, busy criticizing all those things, right? You do this. Of course we do this. But now I'm home again. Oh, you're back now home again. So one bright moment in half hours, I was on fantastic. Really fantastic.

38:02Right moment. Wow. When I'm actually here, really aware. Wow. Thank you. Thank you for your practice. We have one short one, yes. Well, that's the way they end up for it. He's kind of behind you. Why? So in terms of being in the present moment, often when I get into the present, really present moment, what I feel is physical pain. And then the fighting of physical pain, the denial of physical pain. You're trying to solve the physical pain. Yeah. Well, then you're not just in physical pain anymore. Yeah. Then there's a lot of... There's a lot of emotional pain. Well, emotionally a lot of mental, you know. Mental pain.

39:02Yeah, fabrication at least. And so that's what I mean. So where do you have the physical pain? Mostly are, well, the back and muscular skeletal pain. Okay, do you have it now? Yes. Where is it? I've centered right now in my lower back. Yeah. And I have some in my shoulders and my hands. And where is it most intense? In the lower back. Lower back. And if you were to draw a circle around it, it's a comfort surrounding it. How big is it? You can just see it in your own mind's eye. Yeah, it's... It's really intense. And it's intense. I have a question. I know it's just sort of present. Present, okay. So I have a... As a blurry... I have a question for you. Yeah. And is this scary question? Mm-hmm. Would you be willing to give the rest of your back to that intensity? Part of your back that's not hurting so much.

40:02Would you be willing to give that part of your back to that intensity? I'm not sure I understand. So if you were going to... Would you be willing to let the intensity take up more room in your back? Spray through your whole back. Mm-hmm. So that it would dissipate from that one spot? I am getting promises. I'm just wondering if that's... I like it. Because it's a part of you that's not in pain. And there's a part of it that isn't pain. What would happen if they had a handshake? If they met each other. I don't know what will happen. I make no guarantees. What I'm wondering is if it's something you're willing to try. Well, sometimes what I do is try to find the parts of my body that are not in pain. And go there, put my awareness there. Yeah, that's skillful. That's skillful. But I just want to encourage you and we have to stop here.

41:04Not to get too strategic. Yeah, don't start appropriating Zazen for your... the purposes of your personality. What your personality wants. Zazen is about being completely present with what's here. So there's intensity, pain, and then there's some areas that are not so intense. I wonder what would happen. Would you be willing? That's a scary idea. Would I be willing to give it more of my body? My left arm hurts so much. Am I willing to give it my right arm? Yeah. Try it and see what happens. Not as a strategy, but as a compassionate act. Okay? Yeah, I feel like I need to let go of it. Yeah.

42:06It's another strategy. Bring compassion to... Allow compassion to emergence, Zazen. That I get. Okay. Thank you. We have to do the vowels now. We could close with the four vowels. Yeah, I was just saying. Oh, yeah. I got to transform them. Reality is boundless. I got to perceive it. It will wake in place. I will transform myself. I will transform them. Reality is boundless. I got to perceive it.

43:08It will wake in place. Unsurvecible. I got to my end. Creation's arm is boundless. I got to free them. The Lucian's arm is possible. I got to transform them. Reality is boundless. I got to perceive it. It will wake in place. Unsurvecible. I got to my end. Creation's arm number is... I got to free them. The Lucian's arm is possible. I got to transform them. Reality is boundless. I got to perceive it.

44:11It will wake in place. Unsurvecible. I got to my end. Frank, thank you. I always learned so much from your talks and from your dialogues. Today's Re拜 with that. Frank is one of his most favorite authors. Frank is one of the most favorite Pat and batter's favorites. He's one of my friends, and a lot of great people. Frank is one of my friends. With friends. With friends. He's one of your best favorites. Frank is one of your best favorites. And tomorrow morning, actually, we have this wonderful program with Sensei Flint. Is Flint here? Yes, there. We're going to have our first contemplative photography

45:11workshop. So that'll be online available for free. You can join on our website. And you would die to be here in person for it. Come talk to me. I don't know how much space we have, but we might be able to squeeze a couple in. So yeah. Frank, Frank will be here. And then let's see. Who's giving the talk next week? I'm just blanked. Also, they share a large humanity. Right. And so at the end of our love and death program, it'll be concluding at 11 a.m. on Sunday, with our measure of our humanity program with Frank, which will be here. So you can join online. And we're going to talk about belonging. And we're going to talk about belonging. Very important. Actually, Kosozan, all people who are online with Frank will be online for a signature of our humanity.

46:14Yes. Everybody's in love and death will be online. Well, they OK. But they need it. We're still have to give them the link. But we still have to use the measure of our humanity link. Otherwise, those people wouldn't be on that program. So yeah. We'll all be together, belonging to each other. Please join us tonight for dinner. We have a red lentil soup. And sorry. Please do not join us for dinner unless you're here already. I'm sorry. But we do have hygiene kits. Is that what you're going to say? The local Zazan is going to be in the lower. And he's going to be named Mike. And part of the time, we will be putting together some hygiene kits, which we hand out to the homeless. So please join us. We're going to be meeting. We'll take like a five minute break. We'll meet it a quarter to seven in the library. And we'll be there for an hour. So the local Sangha.

47:18Thanks so much. And the local Sangha is put together these wonderful kits that you can give out. Whoever you feel like needs one. And it's just a gift. Thank you for doing that. And resident will be holding the begging bowl. Please give generously to support Franco and his beautiful teaching in the world. And join us this weekend. Thank you.