Cape Buffalo Charges a 17-Year-Old & Hard Cast 9mm Bear Ammo | Gun Talk Hunt

0:00Picture this, you're 17 years old, you're in Africa on a buffalo hunt. Black death is staring you in the face. You take a knee and all of a sudden he burst out of the bush and he's coming right at you. I'm KJ, you found the right place. We go all over this little blue orb, sharing stories and tactics about chasing wild game. Now, let's get on the hunt. Welcome into gun talk. I'm your host KJ and this episode is brought to you by Smith and Wesson, EOTEC shooting sports life, range ready studios and four techs. Today we got a special one because he is in studio. Mike McNatt double tap ammunition. How you doing, man? Oh, fantastic. I love being here. Okay. Last time I had you on, we talked about Africa and an experience you had. Well, you have been back since. What were you going after again? Who was with you and you have to tell the story about another harrowing hunt?

1:07It was awesome. I took two of my boys with me, one's 22 and one's 17. And we just, we three of us took the trip to Africa to go do some planes game hunting as well as some Cape Buffalo only for my youngest. Oh, man. And we love it, man. I'm talking to you. It's nothing like going over there. I can't, I keep hearing that. And I've never had the drive to go there. And I know I should. I know I should because I love chasing game. I'd love the pursuit of of game animals, but, but there's so much. And we were talking about it briefly beforehand. There's so many species that I want to hunt here before I start venturing out. You know, Alaskan moves and Alaskan grizzly bear. And you said you were like, what, hold on a second. Like Alaskans are very proud of what they're, they do and I go, that's exactly right because I can't afford it. That's right. Yeah, it's, it's very expensive to go there.

2:08Really cool as heck and amazing animals, all the stuff you've seen the pictures and so of all that. But for just a moose hunt or something like that up in Alaska, you can, you could go to Africa and do darn near the whole experience that I just had. Really? Yeah. So you go playing the game. I mean, for what, what's a moose going for nowadays? Like 15, 15 to 25, depending on where you're at. Right. Yeah. That's a lot. Yeah. It's like, yeah. And so you're saying go, just go to Africa, have yourself an experience. But the problem with that is I've always heard and you, I mean, you've done it. You've been on this end of it. When you're on the flight back, you're starting to prepare for your next trip. I think I've told you the exact thing. You're already trying to figure out how to come back. It's really 100% true. It also, what's the draw besides a target rich environment? What is the draw? It's what's the deal? So if you're anything like me, which I know that you probably are, you grew up reading, you know, guys like Capstick and, and

3:13Celu and all the Teddy Roosevelt, African game trails, all that stuff. And you're in the land that they were hunting in. You're in a completely different continent. You're the mystique, the, I mean, really like when you, I was part of these and easy to understand way, when you're coming over on the jet, and you first see the coast, the very first time you see the coast of Africa. And you know that see African continent just flew over the Atlantic and spent 15 hours in the air. And you see that. If it doesn't spark like fast, hard, hard rain and, you know, maybe a little adrenaline, yeah, if it doesn't spark that, I don't know if you're alive and I don't know if you're a hunter, the honest, because it is, it is, it is incredible. It just just to be there. Like even if, like the very, the, this very last trip, I hate to spoil things, but I didn't hunt very many things.

4:14I let my boys on. Oh, yeah. And so, and it didn't matter. I was there. And it was, of course, it was the reason I hunt nowadays, maybe not as younger as a little different, but the reason I hunt nowadays is for the experience. Yeah. I want the experience. I want to be with friends. I want to be with family. I want to be with, you know, my kids and maybe one day my grandkids, you know, and go and experience and help them experience what I know is a really an incredible experience. Yeah. And I, I feel like, especially, you go to the Scotland coast, which is really unenhanable. Right. Maybe 800,000 miles long coastline that really nothing lives on. Yeah. But you go over, it looks like it's desolate, nothing. You're like, oh, this is Africa. And then all of a sudden you start getting to the line over all this, the line over all the cool. And you're looking down, trying to figure out how, where am I hunting here? Where am I? Where? Where? Should I go over here next time, you know? And in your mind, it just goes everywhere because it is different.

5:14It does kind of, I know I've told you this before too. Just kind of ruin a little bit hunting Mildir again or whitetail again for me. See, that's a big reason why I can't go. I just can't go. I like, I shouldn't go. I don't know. I still have a passion for hunting whitetail. Like that's kind of my passion. But I'm worried that it will ruin a little bit of that for me. And you know what, if you have a passion for it and you've got especially family, especially kids that are really into it, you have nothing to fear. Trust me on that. But, for example, here and where you know where you're from, you can just go get a tag, many tags. Right. I think Louisiana, in the south, you shoot pretty much a deer day. It's like a deer a day. Yeah, oh yeah. And where I'm from, you draw out every two or three years, you might get a Mildir tag. And you better know somebody that's got land.

6:16Or you're going to be out on a hill that's completely orange with hunters. And it gets old. Yeah. I got to the point where I was hunting when I was hunting a lot. It was hunting in Texas. Some friends down there or I was hunting in Africa when I got the bug. Really? Yeah. Or some other place, you know, you can find a really cool ranch in Arizona that kind of skirts the laws. It calls the hog livestock. Oh yeah. You shoot Russ and Borgens. Oh really? That's very cool. Yeah, there's all kinds of ways to figure out how to do it. Because I don't live in the south. Right. And so it's a little different from me. Yeah. It is getting, well, I mean, I swear we're going to get into it because he has a wicked story. I know it. And I have not heard this story yet. I have had multiple people try to tell me your story about Africa. And I have stopped them. And I said, no, I don't want to hear it until I hear it in front of a camera to get my natural reaction.

7:16But what's on the menu? What started out on the menu is, I mean, do your boys, like your boys have been there at least once before, right? So I've got three boys. And my oldest boy wanted to come a second time and paid for his own way. I mean, he's out of college and doing this thing. My youngest had not been there yet. So the trip was really catered toward him because he hadn't been there in my middle boy just had a kid. Yeah. So now I'm a grandpa. Oh my gosh. I can't believe that. I bet that's cool. I mean, I bet when that kid gets six to eight, he's around in there. His first trip is going to be Africa, right? That's not who it is. You never know. Maybe. I mean, I could be persuaded to take it. So ultimately, it was really catered toward my 17-year-old, still in high school. And as a trip, all my kids, wherever they want to go, where do you want to go and we'll

8:17go do it? So the senior trip isn't afterwards with the friends getting drunk. It's with that having fun and hearing mom wants to come have fun and enjoy something cool that we could do together. So we planned that from way back. My wife and I planned that from way back. That's what we're going to do. And so it was really for him. And so it was on the menu, was playing games. So Zebra, Impala, Bless Book, Warhog, Wildebeest. Okay. I think he got, you know, baboons and monkeys and stuff. They're all on there. It's all on the menu. Yeah. If we find something that's a killer one, you know, as just, you just, a lot of times you just travel around and get off the truck and go walk and see what you can find. And okay. And I like that. I like that. There's a little bit more sense of hunting. Oh, yeah. Yeah. But I would be worried. So I got it because I think it's funny because I always say it.

9:19I'm like the pH's professional hunters over in Africa have to be the best salesman. Oh, yes. Yeah. Constantly. Oh, really? Yeah. I've never seen this one before. He's giant. I swear. We've never seen this one. He has a mystery. You've got to shoot him. If you don't shoot him, I will. And you're like, oh, yeah, I got to shoot that. Oh, yeah. Is that what they're like? Yeah. And the word that's bandied about is a monster. It's a monster. And, you know, and when you hear that, you're like, whoa, monster. Of course, I want to. I want to be the guy that has a monster on my wall. I mean, come on. It's a monster. And, you know, if you know what you're talking about, and you've been there before, it's not necessarily a monster. But I mean, usually they won't say, at least it's least pretty decent. But come on. I mean, but they would sell me. That's why I would end up with empty pocket books. I get it. I'd be empty. Like, I can't do not take me out. You would? You would because it's a target-risk environment.

10:22And you'd see things you've never seen before. And like, I think, I mean, how many whitetails have you seen? Yeah, I mean, really. And how many mule deer have I seen it? Yeah. They live in my front yard, 200 at a time, and my front yard in the winter time. I just have to bump them out of the way sometimes to the pickup truck. Yeah, the way. And, you know, it's crazy. And it's kind of, I don't know, almost blind to them nowadays. And of course, I like a good hunt. But mostly, like I was saying before, it's because I want to be around my friends and my kids. But, like an Impala, let's say, or Warthog. Looks like it's an alien from another planet. I think that's far more interesting to hunt. I know you're right. It's true. It's far more interesting to hunt. Or, you know, for all the time and effort that you put into going on an elk hunt when they're scouting it or getting a guide and going to some foreign place, like New Mexico, it's foreign to me at least.

11:23And trying to get a tag and then buying out. By the time you spent all that, you could afford to go after a Cape Buffalo. And for me, I've killed elk and I've killed Cape Buffalo. I'll take the Cape Buffalo every single time. It won't even, it's not even a thought. See, it wouldn't even blink up an eye. Here's the problem. I thought it was the pH's over in Africa that were there really good salesmen. But apparently, it's like net of double tap ammunition because I'm sitting here going. You know what? I shouldn't go kill an elk in a trauma. I should really go over to Africa. Yeah. I went to Joe Berg and just go from there. Let's go. Come on. I'll go with you next time. I like to sound that, hey, we're going to jump in here real quick with a word from our sponsors. On the back end of this, I swear to you, we are going to talk about another ridiculous Cape Buffalo story right after this. Morning's best moments happen in the gray half light right before sun up or right after

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14:30Shooting Sports Life is a full television network, streaming right now on your smart TV. No cable subscriptions, no hunting around for content. Pull it up on your smart TV and you're into a world built for people who live this lifestyle. Hunting, shooting sports, gear, culture, it's all there, on demand, on the big screen, where it belongs. Find shooting sports life on your smart TV today and start watching. Shooting sports life, where freedom is a lifestyle. Alright, we're back. I promised you. I swear to you, let's get into the African hunting stories. Alright, Mike, with your boys, we set the stage before in segment one, let's jump into it. Alright, so when you fly over there, an adult can only take three rifles. Okay. So we have the same problem on my last hunt, let me talk about it. And so if we want to do a planes game, then you need to bring two planes game rifles and one dangerous game rifle. Okay.

15:30So anybody that's that's hunted dangerous game knows that there's a problem there because you don't have a backup and you have to count on your pH to be the backup. And let's be honest, pH's guns are usually held together by a chicken wire and rust. Those are the two things that are holding together. Yeah, I've literally shot one and one of my trips where I grabbed it from him, I grabbed it by the scope and the scope went. Oh, I guess it's not a scope rifle today. Take out the scope and use it on our own sites. But it's it's that they use them and reuse them and reuse them for generations and they can do about it. So like it's just the way it is. And so anyway, long story short, I brought two good, I got good planes game rifles. I brought a 26 nozzar and a 28 nozzar using our 145 grain in the 28. And then our 127 grain the 26 and they just kill her right.

16:33And so those are those are their the boys rifles and then I brought my big rifle, which was not a 375 this time. Oh, really? Because 375 I found is not enough gone to stop a charging buff. I had to shoot head last time. Yes, remember that. So I bought one that I knew was good enough and I didn't have a 14 year old on this one. I have a 17 year old. That's a big strong kid and not not younger. So we worked him out on the 458 lot. So nice big. That's enough gone. 550 grain. Yeah, it's enough. It's enough. And so I got him squared away on it to where he could shoot it and no problems shooting plays at 30 yards and you know, you know, just not in the air. Right. Yeah, already on the ground. But but off hand and got to the point where we could we could shoot those. Yeah. And we were doing a lot of the deal pretty confident in what we were doing. So that's the purpose I had to tell you because we could I couldn't bring a bunch of rifles. I can only bring to it.

17:34And so we show up and we start to get into the hunt and you know, like we're the boys are getting a blessed bucks and in paulas and I think that one of them shot a, you know, the monkeys with the blue. The baboons. Yeah. Oh, yeah. That's what they actually called them like a mandrel or no, no, they call blue ball monkeys. I don't really are though. I don't know what the name of the rest to be honest. Yeah. I mean, you can pick up that target easy. Yeah. They sit and play with him. It's really odd. But I can't tell you why, but they do. And I mean, yeah, it's in the name. If it's in the name, they like the name. So. So you know, and we're, as we're going on, then we start to, um, well, we go, we go to a really cool place. It's about 5,500 feet in elevation. And it's winter over there. Okay. And so it's cold. I mean, it's frost on the ground.

18:34No kidding. Freezing. And it's wide open. So I, you know, I get a chance for the to open up the 26 and 28 a little bit and those, you know, those boys are shooting, you know, zebra. We shot some mountain zebra. They're, yeah, heartman zebra. They're called really cool. And they're very interesting looking animal because the stripes go all the way down to the hoof. Oh, that's cool. And, um, you know, they shot those at 300 plus yards and, yeah, and some ostrich, ostrich way out there. I mean, like, they are tough. They're tough birds. It's a second time I've hunted ostrich and man, they do not go. They're good. They're good. They're good. They're good. Very easy. Um, not as good as advertised. Doesn't taste like chicken. No, really large chicken. Tough beef. It's like tough beef. Yeah, it's red meat. Oh, that's interesting. Yeah, they're, and they can take, they can take lead or saw a cop or whatever you shoot them, they can take a lot. They're pretty tough. A lot tougher than you'd think that it would be. And they, uh, and we, oh, then we went after spring buck. Okay. And, uh, I, uh, Luke, my 17 year old, he shot his at about a 350, but they're about,

19:40they're small. They're like, you know, they're not very big. They're, probably only 40 or 50 pounds. Yeah. Pretty small, but they're, they're springy and springy. Oh, yeah. They're crazy and they, if you anywhere close to them, they're, they're out of it. They're springy. They're springy. Yeah. And, uh, so we get, you know, we got, we got a chance for them to ease into being over there and being able to, to hunt without, um, you know, worrying about if they have a tag or not, we just talk it over and, and say, okay, well, there's a bunch of spring buck, 800 yards away. We do want to go see if we can get on them or know when we talk about them. Yeah. And do it. Yeah. And do it. Yeah. And do it. And on the way back from that hunt, because it was, uh, we were in the Lumpopo region, but we had to go to the, what's called the free state, which is a ways away. And that's the high, like a high plateau. Okay. And, um, as we're coming back down off of that into the, the more Savannah slash, jungle region, um, I'm talking with my, my pH, great guy.

20:41Yeah. And he's like, well, three 75s down. I don't have my three 75. Don't have it. Right. So we are back up gone. Yeah. Doesn't exist. So you don't have a backup. We have a dangerous game. Four, five eight lot. And then we'll have good old dad with a 28 nozzle with 145 grain solid copper is the back. Yeah. Which by the way, it's not comforting, but the four five eight lot is enough. Right. So, um, I said a little, well, let's go because the next day we're going to start on that and no matter what, we're going to go for a week or we're going to go for a day or a week. So however long it took for us to try to get on some, some buff because in that area, there was a herd. And then he was telling me that as we're driving, he's like, there's, there's one or two satellite bulls that are kicked out of the herd because they, they got old. Oh, okay. And they, the new breeder bull doesn't want them around. Right. Because they, like, one of them used to be dog breeder bull.

21:42They go, they go, dog a boy, like a big old guy. And so like, good luck finding those. But we'll, we'll, you know, we're trying to follow the herd is not, in that area, it's not a huge horse. So will the satellite bulls kind of like, like, like the elk, or they kind of like in the outskirts? Lots of times, yeah. Lots of times they're around them. Yeah. Yeah. Then apparently two, like two of them, like kind of will hang out in that area or they'll split up and pinning off the herd or not. Gotcha. Okay. And sometimes sometimes not. But I was told about it and, and keep, keep your eyes peeled because they're way 2000 pounds and they, they're jet black and you can't see them. And when they want to hide, they can hide it. So the craziest thing ever is my, I've, you know, I've hunted them a few times now. And every single time I'm surprised at how they can be like little ninjas. No, huge ninjas. Huge ninjas. And 1000 pound ninjas. 2000 pound ninjas. And so we, we, we hunt. Yeah. And my, my son up there with a pH and the, and the scout is named Brian.

22:44Really nice guy. And he's like his eyes are so sharp. He's got binos, even though he doesn't have binos like his eyes on that good. And so he's, you know, he's, you know, they're all looking and trying to figure out. We see little traces of movements way off because it's so thick. You can't, we're in the really thick stuff. It's really tough to see. So, you know, we hunt two days, just all day long, just trying to find anything. We finally, we saw one pretty good size one just run across this like little trail we were on. Yeah, kind of right on their back trail like as we, where we already were. So he was hiding close to us. Oh. And so that's the first one we actually saw. It was like the second day of my life. Okay. We finally see Buffalo, you know, imagine that. And so we, you know, we start to strategize. Okay. Well, you know, they, the, the pH is named Jacques. I guess that good dude and smart. Yeah. And he's like, okay, how do we strategize this so that we can not just run around for a

23:48week chasing our tails. Right. And maybe a little more successful. So the next morning, you know, we start going to water. So right as we're, right as we're getting there and we're still, yeah, still actually in the back of the truck, right? You know, the big high rack and all that. And all of a sudden, uh, Jacques, my, my pH is like, stop to the driver. Yeah. And he's like, back up a little bit. Okay. Let's go on here. And I'm like, Hey, you know, looking, I get, get ready, man. Yeah. You never know what's going on. You might have to shoot it right here. Right. I mean, like we don't know. But somehow he had seen just one half of the, of the horn coming off of that of all the branches. You can't see 15 yards in that stuff. But it was, you know, 20 or 25 yards mixed in with the branches. There was a horn. No. The guy has like supernatural vision. I don't know how we saw. I was a little, a little glint off the sun. Something. Yeah. And so, so we, we, you know, we, we, you know, get out and start flying backwards.

24:51Like going, going, going back. It's fast as we can go. And because we know that there is like a little small road that we had driven in. So we can get back to that spot. Yeah. It sets up the sticks and says, if he comes, because he ran off. Oh, okay. If he comes, if he comes this way, be ready. Because he has to come across this spot. Has to because it's too thick down in there. And then he's not going to come around. So you guys backed out. Yeah. And then he's going to come around to a little other spot. Yeah. We're around to another spot hoping hoping that he'd come our way. Because it looked like he might have gone that way. And so, you know, Luke's ready to go with the four or five, eight with one chamber, five hundred and fifty grain soft. And here it comes. Here it comes. And they whistle and yell at it. And it stops and turns. And then he punches it in the shoulder, right? Yeah. I mean, it pollacks that thing.

25:51It tumbled him. His hooves were in the air doing this. He was waving it. Butterflies. 6,500 foot pounds of energy just no whack him, right? So he flops onto his back. That's done. We're high five and I'm giving him hugs. I'm all excited. Like it's this is made a great shot. Oh, it's a 17 year old. 17 year old. Yeah. How far of the shot was the shot? I mean, about 75 yards. I mean, 458 lot. 458 lot that he knows is going to beat him up when he shoots it. I've been going. That's the way most people are. But he took it like a champ. And when we're high, when the middle of our high fives, it gets up and starts running on. So he racks another round in and strafes him across the back with a solid. Right. We know the solids go all the way through. Real FMJs from Woodley from Australia. That we use for those. And so he goes into the bush, gone.

26:54And we kind of wait. The old adage is the old guys, the old pHs, and so they're in smoke at the old time. They say, wait, two cigarettes. Oh, really? Yeah, 20 minutes. That's the idea. 20 minutes. Two cigarettes worth. Two cigarettes worth apparently is 20 minutes. So, we wait about 20 minutes and then we start heading that where he toppled him over. And there's pieces along like there's a chunk. I mean, it's just like blood everywhere. We're like, how do you get up? Right. How do you get up? Well, they're tough. And that's a fact. And so he could see where he beat it right into the bush. And we called and said, hey, we got one. We thought we got it. And so our pH is sun and another tracker guy. We're coming that direction from the log, you know, 10, 15 minutes away. And as they were coming in, they stopped him and said, hey, hold on.

27:55Hold on by that road. Get out, you know, just stay by the truck and see if you can see him come out. Right. See if he's either in this huge area in the between the roads or if he's gone. And I misunderstood. The kid is understood. He's the same age as my son. Right. So he gets out and starts going into the bush. He doesn't realize it. That's what he's doing. So anyway, so there's a little bit of a, like a little bit of a dad moment where the pH guy just took off down the running down the road, because we're on foot, running down the road to try to get over to where his son is. So he doesn't go into the wounded buff with nothing. Nothing. I mean, he may have had a pistol or something. I don't know. It wasn't anything. Yeah. If he had something, it was nothing. He might as well have had nothing. So he got him out of there. So that was one thing where I could, like a dad moment, when I was like, oh, my kid was in there. I'd be running right into him. No matter what. Because you know that one of the worst things you can run into is a wounded buff.

28:56Right. And so when that time, he comes back. It's more like 30 minutes. OK. So like we saw the long guy. So he's done. So we get it. OK, I'm like, all right, we got no backup rifle. So I talk to the Luke. I'm like, listen. If we run into him, I've got a big CZ 550. They don't even make him anymore. It holds five down and one on the pipe. You have a sick shooter. Right. You got six shots. It's a million. Just put it center and keep shooting if you see him. Just don't stop shooting. Yeah. Don't stop shooting. No matter what. And I'll be shooting my P shooter beside you. And so here we go into the bush. And of course, instead of, like last time, it's me and the pH and my kids are back. It's my kid leading with Brian the tracker because my pH doesn't have a backup gun. And so the leader is literally a high school student and a tracker that speaks limited English.

29:59And so they're leading the charge into the bush. And as a dad, I'm like, oh, my gosh. What's going on? Where's an axe? I'll just write. I'll use an axe if I take something. Something. So I got the 28. Yeah. Here we go. So we go in. And I can't tell you, it's hard for me to stress it over this microphone. And across these waves that we're broadcasting, how intense it really was going into the bush, knowing that it's wounded. And we could see, as we were hiking in, we got in 20 yards, got in 100 yards, and about those two spots. You could see where it had laid down and just blood, like crazy. And then got up. I just got up and moved. Got up and moved. You start getting to where it's getting too tight. Because they go to the thickest stuff that possibly is. And everything's so tight that if it were to come, you almost have no room to even maneuver. And I've got two boys. I got me. And then I've got a pH and a tracker.

31:00So it's five of us in this little area. And it just gets really dark over off to a right as we were hiking in. It's just really dark on the right. And Brian, the tracker, he starts to wander over, look and at it and see what's what. And this all happens really fast here. This is what happens. All of a sudden, he goes, and Luke is the one that he wants. He doesn't want me because I can't do anything. Punch him? I don't know. So Luke comes running over. And he's 10 yards away from us and I can't hardly see. So I'm trying to figure out how to get through there without killing yourself on those thorns. If you let them hit you, you'll get stitches. You have to push them out of the way. You have to be tender with the thorns. There's no just running through. Don't run to the thorns. OK. Almost probably get hit by the buff that runs to the thorns.

32:01It's awful. It's really is. I'm working my way over there. Meanwhile, in order to see, they have to take a knee to get underneath the thornbrose. Well, Brian has seen him the buff. And so he's down. And they go down. And he's like, that's him. And I could hear him say that. And I have terrible hearing. So the dad, the dad impulse, whatever, helped me out. Because they've been running. Yeah, all of a sudden, I've got adrenaline here and whatever. And I'm like, oh, shoot. So I rush over there. And meanwhile, the buff comes. So he's charged. So the buff, as soon as they took a knee to see what was what, he saw them looking at him and he came. Because he was turned around looking for waiting for us. And luckily, he lost a lot of blood. He wasn't as quick. And luckily, Luke had already taken a knee

33:04and was already pointing in the right direction. So all he had to do was take the safety off. Because I hadn't had him one with him. One of the pipe at a time. He took the safety off. It got about a beat into it. So it got up and got moving two or three good gallops. And then he whacked him. And he hit him good. He hit him right where I would recommend with that 375. But I wouldn't recommend it to the 375. It texts his heart shut down right to the front. And it absolutely turned him. And he didn't take one more step toward us. When that 550 grain slug hit him, it turned him, like some, like, I don't know, like God grabbed him and just moved him to the side. He just said, I'm not coming anymore. And he turned sideways and started to run sideways. And I could see his black coat in a little bit of sun that was there. So me and his older brother snapped off a couple rounds

34:05of 26 and 28. And I'm actually hitting him. But it didn't do anything. He went back kind of the way he came and disappeared into the black. And of course, I'm reloaded. I'm like reloaded. And what we had just a second, I put them there soft in his gun as the first one because of softs. They just hit so much harder when you have a chance to hit in the vitals. And as he was clicking that one home and just watching just see what was going on. You could hear the death rattle, which just kind of goes, oh, I can't recreate it, but it's really loud and very unique. And it was where the lungs collapsed. And it goes through his larynx and makes the noise. And so we soon heard that. Now we could actually hide high for real. We can breathe. Oh my gosh. Yeah, give him a hug and all that stuff. Because as a dad, as a dad, if he'd have missed or if there had been a problem, he's coming at him.

35:05And he didn't care about me at all. He was coming at the guy shooting at him. And trust me, they know who shoot now. I know from the previous experience, they come at the guy that's shooting at them. And how they know that, I don't know. Because last story you told us, it was the same thing. I was like, how do they know who to go after? It's like leopards. It's the same thing with leopards. They know who's the threat. And they go and well leopards will hit everybody. Oh yeah, yeah. They make sure that they can, why there's still a lot. If there's still, as long as they're still breathing, they're still fighting. And it was from the place that the Shelley Jack did. My oldest boy, because he's a ballistic geek like me. Oh, he is. Oh yeah, he loves that stuff. And he went over to, we were over there, putting an insurance shot in him and making sure he was no matter what dead. There's the dead ones that kill you, right? So we had to make sure he was actually dead. And let me tell you one thing. He measured out it more than 45 inches,

36:08the biggest buff I've ever got. But that was after he's broomed off. So he's one of the satellite bowls that was the big guy. He was 2100 pounds when they were strong him up to the skin and all that. He's 2100 pounds. And he was bigger before. Like the, you know, the Cape off, they come up really high like this. They were broomed off to where they didn't come up at all. It just comes down. Oh, really? And it was still 45 inches. It was at least 50 plus inches before those. It was prime. Oh, when he was in his prime, he was truly a monster. Yeah. And even now, I mean, you know, a 20-year-old buff in his prime. And he got on this way out. He got to come out and give us one last good go. One good go. I mean, at the end of the day. He was a 17-year-old high school student. Knows how to shoot. That's exactly it. That's what's crazy about when that.

37:09So when I first heard whispers of this story, Ryan told me, he was like, his 17-year-old got charged. And I was like, what? Because I have a student the same age. And I'm sitting there thinking of my son going, I don't know if he could do it. I don't know. And for a 17-year-old, the whole day together like that. Yeah. Oh, was he shaken after? Oh, yeah. He was fired up. And nerves and adrenaline and all the above. Oh, yeah. He was pretty fired up. And it was neat to be a part of it. I think you're incredible. I think your kid would surprise you. I think that they did. Did he surprise you? He didn't surprise me. No, he didn't surprise me. Once he took a knee, I knew he'd get a good shot in.

38:11But I still have flashbacks to 375 not stopping him. And so I was like, in my mind, I was like, shoot. Shoot. No, not again, right? And that's what I was aiming for actually kind of over their backs, because they had found a spot where I could see down on it a little bit. And if you had a miss, I would have tried for his head. With a 28, as best I could do, I would try to hit him in the head. Yeah. Maybe try to turn him a little. Maybe. Maybe. Their skulls are so sick. I don't think if I had a chance, but I was my only thought was if he doesn't turn him. Somehow I knew he was going to hit it. But I had confidence in that. But man, I just think you have the dream where you're flying and then you fall or whatever. He's shooting. And I've been in this situation before with not enough gun. And I don't know. What if? What if?

39:12All those things go through your mind. What if? But you don't have to. But there's nothing like being in this spot where you have to measure up. You have to measure up or you don't. Do you see there yes or no? Which one is it? And it was really cool. It's an experience that all of us will take forever. Yeah. I told you before, right in the same spot for five years ago, that I was okay if I never got charged again. Yeah. I remember saying that it was exactly what the hell. I got charged again. And charged again. Come on out again. What's going on? I mean, you're like almost like what two for two on the last trips. The last the last two buff trips. Yeah. I took a trip in the middle with my brothers, but we didn't hunt buff on that one. See? But two for two in the last two. And you and Black Death over there. They don't like staring down at it. They don't like me. They don't like you. All right. I think a real quick break here.

40:12But when we come back, let's talk about bullet construction and especially hardcasts that we've been shooting today. I think you guys are going to be really surprised what Mike here knows about ammunition. Looking to trim a few LBs out of your pack or just your firearm, check out the Savage 110 carbon predator. Two swings of level studs. Black carbon steel receiver, two piece weaver style bases, proof research barrel. Yeah, it's carbon wrap. So that's where some of the weight savings is going to come. And you won't be disappointed because they offered in a lot of different variations. Six millimeter arc, 223 rimmington, 222, 250, a favorite of mine. 308, 653 more and 300 blackout. Now you're talking about weight. You're talking about how much literally is it going to weigh? Trust me, you're going to be able to carry this thing all day. It's under that seven pound range. So I promise you, it's accurate too.

41:14So trust Savage 110 carbon predator for all your weight savings. Tired of your range time being just mag dumps and Instagram flexing, interrange ready training work director of awesomeness and everything else. Chris Serino turns keyboard warriors into actual warriors or something like that. Pretty dang close, I would say. Yeah, the guys been there, done that. Pistol check, rifle check. Yeah, we got it all force on force. We do that every now and then too. Bring your bruises instructor development. Welcome to the Thunderdome of learning. It's more than training, it's range ready because real life doesn't come with a respawn button. Need or laser rangefinder that doesn't guess? Get the vortex ranger HD 3000 with 3000 yard ranging capability. A red display you can actually read in any light and HCD mode for angle compensation distance. It's like having a spotter in your pocket.

42:14Hey, here's a pro tip for you. Before you're hunt, you need to go out. You need to range landmarks like trees or rocks around your blind. So you're not scrambling when that game shows up. Built rugged, backed by the vortex VIP warranty. It's the ranger HD 3000. All right, we're back with Mike McNet of double tap ammunition. And this is kind of the point of the conversation where we start talking about the nerdy stuff. So if you're, you know, if you are listening to this and you're like, well, this is my section. I'm the nerd. I want to know the ballistics behind stuff. In this one though, what I want to talk about is redefining what a bear gun is. And when I talk about that, we're not redefining what a bear gun is. We're defining what bear ammo is. Oh, correct. Yeah. There is no bear gun. No, it's literally that the gun unless you throw the gun at the bear, the bear never contacts the animal.

43:15It never, or the gun never contacts the bear. I said the bear never contacts. Yeah, the bear, I mean, bear could contact the gun if you don't know how to shoot. It is a hot day out there. It is. I'm telling you. We thought we've always been, and I remember the first time I was in Alaska and I was like, oh, well, I've got to have a 460. I've got to have something giant. And then I was like, it was back in the day where I'm like, I don't honestly don't know if I can hit this sucker. If I get charged, there might, I might not have enough like gun here because I might get lucky. Sure. I would have to get lucky because I didn't practice it with it as much because it sucked to shoot. Yep. And that's it. And we had one guy carrying a 500 and that used to be the definition. And then here comes a 10 millimeter, night and shining armor. Yeah. Right? I mean, that's kind of what's the progression. Everybody's like, oh, they're goo goo all over the 10 millimeter. That's right. When we came out in 2005 with the the hard cast 200 grain in 10 millimeter, it changed

44:16the way that people thought about it because we put it in a 15 round of block at the time. You have 15 rounds of good penetrating like killer stuff that go through the bear skull, can break bones, break shoulders. It hits. It's going. It's going to do the damage. It's going to penetrate. And that's a kind of turns the page where it really matters is penetration. Number one, it's got to penetrate deep enough. And then you want it to do some damage when it penetrates. And so that's the reason why we don't have pointed bullets. Right. It doesn't do a whole lot of damage when it goes through. Yeah, you might have a dead bear in four days. I don't care if it's there in four days. I want it dead right there. It's hard to. It's as soon as possible. Yeah. And so, you know, when you when you see our hard cast, we followed the the lead that there was an old old time and then Viral Smith. And he actually made most of our molds.

45:17Okay. And we designed most of our molds that we have. And he was very, very hardcore about having an 80% meat platter on the tip of the bullet, right? Which is the meat platter is the flat surface used on the front. And and then the old guy be making it a straight old driver as close to straight as possible. So there's you said nerd. Here I go. I know. Here we go, folks. Here's the here's the parts of a bullet that you can visually see. There's the base of the bullet. There's the bearing surface of the bullet, which is what the contacts are rifling. Okay. And that's all the bearing services actually calibersized. So if it's this is 45 cold, it's 452. And then you have the O-Give, which is, which is the part where the bearing surface ends and it starts to slope in. And all the way till the end of the bullet, which if it's flat, is meat platter.

46:17Meat platter. Yeah. If it's not, then it's the on a spire point or some other tip. All that point, yeah. But so that's the, those are the main parts of the bullet. So that way people that have never heard it before, now they've not heard it. And usually you have to kind of be a little nerdy, let's put it that way in order to know what or just we want those guys that care enough to really dig into the nuts and bolts. Yeah. And see how stuff works. Yeah. And so that something like this, which is 335 grains, is going to punch deep and less it, the forms. Okay. And so there's another part about our hardcast that's really important. And we kind of set the tone on this is we use an alloy and then heat treat them specifically so that they are at 21 Bernal hardness. And that's the hardness of the, of the lead. What one Bernal would be super soft lead. Okay. And then it goes up from there, or paying on what you do with the lead or had to the lead.

47:21And so we, we have a specific way that we cast them and we, we, we bought out a hardcast company 15 years ago or more. And so now we, now we specifically make it all we have for a long time. And so we able to do anything we want. And so the whole idea is to make, ride the line because it's a very thin line between making them hard enough that they don't deform even when they hit bone or when they hit boards. Yeah. Which is what we were doing today. Exactly. We're shooting through boards, gel, water, boards, gel water like all the way down. Yeah. If you can make it so that it doesn't deform when it hits heavy hard stuff like bones and wood. Yeah. Um, you, but you don't want to make it so hard that it, the bullet, bolt breaks up. Right. And so that's a, it's a fine line. Um, it's not, it's not easy. And, uh, but it's really important. Oh, yeah.

48:21Because if you can, if you can have it stay like this one did and this one did and keep it shape, even though it's hit. Yeah. And so, yeah, I think gel board like literally an inch, inch thick like were they maple or something. Yeah, they're, I think they're oak, uh, oak boards. So hard, hard wood. Yeah. Um, and not busting itself up. I mean, you could practically, I'm, I'm looking at the nine millimeter, which is we're going to get to talk about, but I'm looking at that and you can almost reload that. You could reload that. Yeah. Um, and then the 45, uh, long cold is, I mean, you could pretty much reload that pretty much. Yeah. Yeah. That one got the extra 300 feet per second from the right. Yeah. So, uh, but that holding and solid construction that you're utilizing, um, it holds, it retains its weight all the way through. And it doesn't deviate from where it enters to where it's going to exit. That's right. So you can hold, it holds straight. That's number one. Right. If you have it busting itself up, then it's, there's a centrifugal force. We'll just pull it off.

49:21Oops. Right. Pull it off no matter what. There's no way getting around it. Everything is really important. Is that flat point isn't just there to make us, you know, feel like we're cool and run flexor muscles or something like that? It's specifically there because it cuts and that flat point, um, pulverizes. I was just wondering what's in front of it. Right. And so, um, at it's really slow speeds, a really large me flat like this me flat on here is probably about 35 cal. Okay. Um, 36. When it hits, you know, low speeds, really low speeds, it just, it'll cut a hole. That's about 36 caliber. Right. Really, it was going really slow like, you know, 600, 700 B percent. Okay. And so you'll have this smaller than caliber permanent wound channel. As you increase the speed, um, the, the size of that permanent wound channel increases because what happens is, um, as it hits the, um, the tissue collapses on it as it's pushing it through it faster and faster.

50:23And that, um, as it does that, it rips more and then it comes, it breaks it out, it pushes it out. Okay. And, um, it creates a kind of a chain reaction to where, um, you end up with, that's a 45 caliber bullet. Uh-huh. And, um, you know, through the gel we saw, it could solid inch, inch and a quarter, at least, uh, permanent wound channel where, where it's currently ruined and there. Oh, it's, and it's devastating. It wouldn't be that way if it was pointed. Okay. And so, the way it's that, it's theirs because the flat point, um, crushed, that's a good word for it. Yeah. Crushed the tissue in front of it and then cut. Oh, okay. And so it, uh, it allows for more damage and there's only two ways to do it. One is the larger me plot in the front and the other is a speed speed. And so, um, for example, like with the 9 millimeter that, that I wanted to talk with you about a little bit. Oh, yeah. And so, the 9 millimeter, it has to, we designed this bullet specifically for sort of feed in everybody's gun. Right.

51:23Has to feed. A new, doesn't matter. Doesn't matter. It's got to work. Yeah. And so this, this, this gun uses the same, or it's, this bullet uses the same O-Give as what's on like a 115, a 124 FMJ. Yeah. And then, um, it's got a flat point on it. That's 21 caliber. Right. And so, it's smaller than I'd like. I actually would really like to be about 24 caliber. But when we did that, um, it makes it a little bit unreliable. Okay. So, there's just a little bit, 300, seven inch, yeah. It's, it's pretty small amount. But everybody makes a big difference when operating in several different guns. Yes. It made a difference. It really did make it. And so, um, this feeds in everything. It's a cheapest gun that we tested through to the most expensive than everything in between. And then we also, uh, the alloy we use and, um, uh, the gas check that we use on the back, um, allows us to fire it through all guns, even polygonally rifle guns like Glocks and HKs. Right.

52:24We're able to fire it through all those guns. So, here's what I'm hearing. And because we had left off kind of as the, the 10 millimeter had taken over and everybody thinks 10 millimeters, the berries, because you can have 17 rounds or, you know, whatever the, the new, um, 10 millimeter holds. Mm-hmm. Now, your carry gun that you carry on a daily, on a daily, it is your back country gun. Yeah. Because now you're talking about holding 17 rounds of 9 millimeter, which people shoot those all the time. They're more controllable. Yeah. Right. And people get a chance to, you go to the range and you, you go shoot with your friends or go shoot with your family. That's the time when you break a pistol out. It's a 9 millimeter because you're going to, you're going to grab the cheapest thing out to shoot your FMAs and, and, and, and, break some paper. And you're very familiar with that. Most people are very familiar with their knives, especially the last decade, the nine is just swept off the whole nation.

53:24And, um, and then they, when they were going to the woods in Montana or Alaska, they switched it out to a 454-cushul, super red-haka laskin, you know, with a, you know, grab our 400 grain slugs and they, when they, they take a shot and they're never going to recover to get a second shot. And hopefully they hit with the person because if they didn't. Well, because that was always the joke is, is when you're sitting there, fishing on the river and you're like, you know, a bear shows up and he's downstrain a little bit. He's like, do you think I, I should just throw the gun at the bear and make him shoot it? You know? I mean, I've heard him already shoot it. You shoot it. I don't want it. Like, you know, like now with the nine millimeter, I think everybody's like familiar with that recoil impulse and they're easy, they're easy to control. But my gosh, like it, like it redefines like what you were doing with this because what we were doing today is shooting through all those gels. How many to go through three stages, almost three stages? Yeah. Yeah. It went, it went the exact same depth as our 10-millimeter 200 grain.

54:25Yeah. It doesn't have quite as large of a wound channel because of that. It has a small army plot. They're going the same speed. And because of that, it goes the same depth. And our 10-millimeter, I have a friend of mine that's taken three, but Kate buffed with it. It is a killer. It's killer. Yeah. Everything, Bison, Moose, you name it. Alaskan brown bear has killed them all. And the, this is penetrating just as deep and we just proved it again today. It's 130 grain. It's a flat point, hard cast, real, real hard cast round that you can use. It also just is a, just as a weird nerd thing. It's the only round you can buy off the shelf from a manufacturer that actually could make major in a USPSA competition because it has that much power. Really? They made major high enough so 9-millimeter won't qualify as a point. But you can do it with that round right there. That's actually possible. A little pro tip for you.

55:27That's right. That's funny. I mean, just redefining what a backcountry gun is. Like people call it backcountry gun, bear guns. It's really your protection from two-legged and four-legged critters that you have to worry about when you're in the backcountry now. There are a bunch of creeps out there. So I would not hesitate because when you're getting charged through brush or anything like that, you want something that goes. Yeah. That won't deflect them. We proved that today because where it entered, it exited. In the same line, you could almost put a dowel rod through the path of that bullet and it's not going to deviate, which is incredible. And if you do that with an FMJ, it's all over the place. All over the place. It's there's no way around it. We make some great FMJs. Really thick jackets was what I was doing before. And it's as good as it got. But this is a whole different level. This raises it up. Your nine does have a chance of being your real life do everything gone.

56:32If you put the right ammo in it. All right, guys. You know it. You know the drill. Keep those muzzles pointed in a safe direction and always be on the hunt.