Carla Hall on cooking, courage, and curiosity

0:00This message comes from Sony Pictures Classics. The New York Post calls Hachan Shakerbooty a delirious gem. Academy Award nominee, Rinku Kakuichi, stars as a woman drawn back to Tokyo's ballroom dance scene after a tragedy. Only in theaters September 25th. I love Black Eyed Peas. Oh, I love Black Eyed Peas! And so in the summer, I'm going to do a Black Eyed Peas salad because I'm like, I'm not waiting. Listen, I haven't eaten one this week! I've been eating one this week! Yes, we're on the same wavelength. You get it! There's a quick tip. You can get a regular store bought hummus. Get you a can of Black Eyed Peas. And just put them in the food processor. A little bit of oil. Maybe if you want to do some tahini, you can. But honestly, it gives you that quick fix of Black Eyed Peas. Get you some carrots. Girl, you can grill some celery. What? And this is why we have you here today, because you're going to get me together. Today's guest takes me back to my early 20s.

1:02The year was 2008. I was a senior at Howard University. My friend Keith and I were on my food time watching one of our favorite shows. Top Chef. There was one competitor who we couldn't take our eyes off. She was funny. She was electric. Episode after episode she made us wonder, who is this girl? I think it's really important to have a really good attitude. At the point where I wasn't doing well, winning for me was to not be scared where I shut down. She was so her and she could cook her tail off. She was one of the only chefs to come in there from catering, not a brick and mortar business. Her name was Carla Paul. Carla didn't fit into a lot of people's ideas about what a TV day you looked like. She was authentic. She was spontaneous. She was undeniably herself. Since then, Carla has become a fixture in the food and entertainment world. From her tenure on the television show The Chew, it's over-brown pie crust, keeping your pie from scoring a perfect 10.

2:03Well, this quick tip will ensure a perfectly golden crust every time. To her roles in Bojack Horseman and Girls' Tripp. I consider Carla to be the queen of the pivot. She's always doing something new. Now, as I've gotten older, I've realized how hard changing lanes like that can be. Your responsibilities are bigger. You're thinking about retirement. And possibly starting to slow down into a more conventional lifestyle. But at 62, Carla is still going at it. She's just coming off a one-woman show and has a new cookbook. Carla Bakes out now. Today, Carla is here with me to talk about how to make your next move, whether it's finding your new career or finding your next recipe. Hello, hello. I'm Brittany Loose and you're listening to it's been a minute from NPR. A show about what's going on in culture and why it doesn't happen by accident.

3:05And a reminder, if you love it's been a minute, which from the sweet comments y'all have been leaving, it sounds like maybe you do. Be sure to follow or subscribe to the show on your favorite podcast app. That way you get new episodes the moment they drop. I mean, I've been watching you for almost two decades now, and you had all these different stints before you got the television from accounting to modeling. But I mean, even still now in your career, you're always doing something different. Your host, Stank, cookbook writing, acting. We're going to get to that later. But I, in a way, I think of you as the queen of the pivot, but I'm wondering like, how do you know when you've outgrown a space versus when it's time to tough it out and whether the storm? How do you know when it's time to pivot? One, I'm curious and I don't mind not knowing how to do something. I'm okay with asking people. There's a part of me. There's a sense of learning as much as I can, and then not feeling fulfilled in that space.

4:07I will stop and listen. Now, now, I must say, and my father was probably the only person who knew this, and he called me out on it. When I was in accounting, and it was so stressful, I quit, and he said, you were afraid of failure, weren't you? Huh. Yes. Dang. Yeah. And that was something I never told anybody. The job itself was like, was really challenging. It was at the time when we went from floppy to that disk. I remember, when you were at a computer, if you didn't save it right, and you came back, then you had your other version after all the work that you had done. Yes. Well, that happened to me a few times, working on it, and on it, and at work, and it was just so stressful. Now, I quit, but looking back, I understand that sometimes when you're working so hard to make something happen,

5:11that is not for you. That is not for you. I think sometimes we're so used to working at something, working really hard, that we're not leaning into our natural gifts, which is why I love an assessment. I did an aptitude test like you're hit and genius. I did a great strength. So whatever. Yes. I did Myers-Briggs. I did all of those things. And what I found, there are certain things that I have an aptitude for. And when I look at accounting, my brain worked in that way, but the environment did not work for me. Doing the same thing every day, going to the same place, did not work for me. And I'm going to tell you what else, like looking back. So I did the chew for seven seasons, right? Yes. 1200 shows. That's a lot. That's a lot. That's a lot of shows. Yeah.

6:11Looking at it now, if somebody said, Hey, we'll pay you millions of dollars to go and do a show, and you have to be there every day. I couldn't do it. I don't care how much money I couldn't do it. I know that I'm not meant for that world. As I get older, I understand how I have to work. I need to be learning and changing and doing something else. How do you know what to grow into next? You have to be open to the signs and around you. I don't consider myself ambitious. I consider myself curious. Interesting. What do you think is the difference? I don't do things for fame, money, exposure, accolades. I don't do it for those things. I think success at this age is having the ability to choose the thing that I want to do. You know, versus somebody telling me where I can find success. Because they don't know my heart.

7:13I think I get bored. I think in my mind, when I start thinking about other things to do and where to go, it's been maybe time to transition. Now, this is different for everybody. And what I'm saying is you have to understand how your mind and body and spirit ticks. But people don't tend to do that work. A lot of times people will say to me, oh, I love what you're doing. I really want you to mentor me. But if I put them on this treadmill, they'd be like, damn, I don't want to do all that. I don't want to do all that. It's not just that you're curious. I see how like, you know, curiosity can lead you to your next thing and you look for the clues that you know that you're interested or that you're looking around at what's next. But I think for a lot of people, the fear of what's next, it paralyzes them from taking steps towards, you know, maybe perhaps a greater or better for them. But more uncertain life. Are there ways that food or cooking has helped you figure out what's next?

8:15And how do you overcome the fear of moving into a new space? I mean, I get the fear. And sometimes there's freedom in being able to financially choose to do something. I get that. I get that. But when I had a lunch delivery service, I worked every single day from 25 to 30 until I went to culinary school. I went, I worked every single day, like every day, every day. I could do not. And Saturday Sunday. Saturday Sunday. 24-7. If you were visiting me, you two were working. Damn. I was either delivering or prepping food, right? All the time. There's a part of me and as a caterer that went, I'm a recover caterer now. But there's a part of me that is not afraid of hard work. I will do the grunt work to get to a particular place. When I look at like a recipe, like the analogy of cooking, a lot of people are afraid to mess up on a recipe. I'm like, I mean, how much did it cost you? The Celeste is $10.

9:15So even if you quote unquote fail, I look at it as an experience. The experience is going to give you information. If you make a recipe as it is and you don't like it, you have to say, why don't I like it? Do I not like the texture? Do I not like the flavors? Do I not like the steps? Why don't I like it? As soon as you identify why you don't like something, then you change that thing that you didn't like. But you don't throw away the recipe because you can tweak the recipe because why throw away the experience when you can change the experience? You can tweak the experience. You can tweak the experience. It's like you have agency. You have agency. And I think a lot of times, especially with recipes and having cookbooks, I've had people say, oh my god, that recipe was the best. Another person talking about the same recipe is like, oh my god, that recipe sucked. And then I changed all these recipes. I mean, both people are right. Their experiences are at home.

10:16I'm not there. Right? Their taste buds are different. Right. But my thing is you have to own the part that you did. I think a lot of people never want to mess up. So, and I always joke about this. If they're doing a recipe, and it's good, and everybody's loving it, they're like, oh my god, thank you. I made this cake. Okay. Oh my god. Okay. I mean, they're like, yes, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. The fun. Let the people not like it. Oh yeah, that's Carlos recipe. Then you got to take the blame. Right. I take the blame. People don't want to take responsibility. My thing in my life, I will take responsibility. Even if I go out there right now, and I fall, I'm like, oh dang. Look, what I follow? Why did I need to follow? Do I need to see something from this vantage point on the ground somewhere? Right? Mm-hmm. You know, everything is useful. And that's also what I mean about, you know, switching paths. I don't go out to look for a switch in pass.

11:16I am involved and excited and participating in life. So if I go out and somebody says, hey, do you want to do blah, blah, blah? Really don't want to go. Really? I usually go. Wait, why? Because sometimes when you really don't want to do something, something is shutting down. But when you go, have you ever gone to a thing? You're like, I almost didn't come to this thing. Yes, yes, yes. Right. And then you're there and you're like, oh my gosh, this was amazing. I'm so glad I stepped out. That is akin to fear that you will have when you're having a new experience. Huh. Sometimes you just have to say yes to the experience because your ego is telling you no, but really you should probably go. You should probably say yes. You grandmother, I believe you said, taught you really that it was your job to be happy, not to be rich. Yeah. How did that philosophy shape the risks that you took in life?

12:16And has it ever complicated things for you? I will say no to something in a heartbeat. I have learned from my early 20s to trust like that. And it doesn't mean that I don't go through hard things. That is not it at all. But I can stay in a situation that I am learning, that I am trying to understand how to maneuver in that job or that place versus my spirit feeling like it is crushed. Hmm. Right. Even though, I mean, I've been through some spirit crushing experiences. But I also in hindsight realized that that experience was a messenger of my lessons that I needed for the next thing. I don't know how to tell somebody when to stay and when to go. But I do know there's a part of me that feels like I am learning

13:19through all of the hard stuff. Hmm. Even though I honestly feel like I'm going to lose my mind. I mean, I don't know. But that's, I mean, what you're talking about though is I value. Like there's a value there. There's a value in what you're experiencing. Kind of like the flip side of thinking about things in terms of dollar amount or yes, obviously everybody wants to be secure. Everybody wants to not worry where they're going to stay or how they're going to pay their bills or whether they're going to eat. But beyond that, thinking really about value, it feels to me like what you're talking about it. Yes. That like just something is painful or difficult. Does it mean that there was absolutely zero value there for you necessarily? Yeah. Correct. Coming up after the break. It's sort of a breakfast take on sweet grits. And if you do this recipe, you too will be putting sugar in your grits. Stick around. This message comes from BetterHelp.

14:21Imagine carrying a backpack every day. Inside it, every conversation, every mistake, every expectation. It is easy not to notice how heavy it is until someone asks if you want to put it down. Sometimes feeling better starts exactly like that. Better isn't one size fits all. Better is personal. It's therapy tailored to the individual to help lighten what you carry. Match with a therapist who truly understands. Visit betterhelp.com slash NPR. This message comes from a thumbtack. Recommendations can be great. Maybe someone recommended this podcast and here you are. But home projects are different. If a podcast isn't your thing, you lose a few minutes. If you hire your cousin's neighbor to mount your TV, you might end up with a lopsided screen and wall damage. That's why thumbtack works. It matches people with top rated local pros, with photos, reviews, and credentials all in one place. For your next home project, try thumbtack. Hire the right pro today.

15:22This is Ira Glass. On this American life, we tell stories about when things change. Like for this guy, David, whose entire life took a sharp, unexpected, and very unpleasant turn. And it did take me a while to realize it was basically because the monkey pressed the button. That's right. Because the monkey pressed the button. Sprising stories every week. Wherever you get your podcasts. This fall, there are a lot of movies and TV shows on tap for you to see. And we're as excited for all of it to arrive as you are. On Top Culture Happy Hour, we've got a guide to what's worth keeping on your radar. Listen via the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts. Honestly, I've enjoyed this conversation to hearing all these stories, but you have been telling stories in a whole other way recently. We gotta talk about your one-woman show. For those who might not know, can you tell us where it's about? What is it called? What do you do when? Give us a taste. So the play is called, please underestimate me.

16:25And it's biographical. I talk about wanting to be the black care unit, not going to culinary school, ending up in a counting, doing top chef, and then ending up on the chew. And the framework is of the chew. It's a fictitious clicking show called the perfect bite. And so we come in and out of that framework as flashbacks. And some of the challenges and bad relationships, good relationships that I had. I have been wanting to do this for seven years. I started working on it, thinking about it at 55. And I started saying, what do I need? I told my agency, look, I want to do voiceovers and cameo roles. I got an acting coach. I broke down what I needed to manifest this thing. I'm not going to just pop up in there and just say, hey, I'm Carla Hall. I'm going to do a one-woman show. Yeah. In 2023, I was talking to the showrunner

17:25for Halloween baking championship Leslie Thomas. And I said, I really want to do a one-woman show. I just keep talking to people and she was like, okay, let's do it. I'm like, wait, what? I was in my dressing room getting ready, like going through a fitting for the show. And she said, my wife just did a workshop on solo shows. Let's do it. They were helping to write these vignettes. And they're just magical writers. And then we presented something, we were gulched it. No problem. But you know what? We worked out write-ups of the vignettes to send them so that when somebody came back to say, hey, we want to see what you're working on. We had something to send them. Ghosting is just preparedness. Nothing is wasted. And then it was very clear when somebody came back. And we had that and we just shot it off like, boom, boom. Everything happens in its own time.

18:27It was 54 pages of script. My biggest fear and worry was as a post-mini-pause a woman, I would forget everything. I couldn't learn 54 pages of script because, girl, sometimes I'm like, Matthew, past the, oh, the. The. The. He's not yet. Oh, yes. Stop. The. The rehearsals were six days a week. And there's just me on the 10th day. It's a Sunday. I didn't have a great rehearsal. I was crying. I was like, I can't do this. I can't do this. I think I just have to tell the theater. They have to refund the money to take it. No. Yeah, I was like, I can't. And then I come out. Everybody's like, oh, that was great. That was great. My director was like, yeah, that one good. And the thing is, I was saying it when they were like, it was great. I'm like, I don't need platitudes. I know it wasn't great. It didn't feel great in my body.

19:28My director, Lily Ann Brown, Helen Hayes, award-winning director. She knew how to talk to me and how to get me to like dig deep. She said, we're going to do it again. I was so mad at her. But all of the emotions of that anger, I needed and I poured into the script. And it was the best rehearsal up to that point that I had had. And that was a turning point. And when I tell you, I went from breakdown to breakthrough. And sometimes when you're at that precipice and you're having the breakdown, if it's left to your own devices, you just spiral down. I knew I had to keep going. Because I knew that there are like, 10 people there who are working, watching me, I couldn't just sit down. I had to keep going. And that was the turning point of the show. And I said, okay, I can do this. Well, you continue to break new ground and do new things.

20:29And that includes a new cookbook that you have out now called Carla Bakes. Yes. And it feels like, yes, I got my, I got my copy right here on my shelf. It feels like a roadmap through the relationships with circle touch points and the travels that made you who you are. You got Southern classics like pound cake and drop biscuits, updated, you know, with twists from all these different experiences that you've had. Yeah. What did research for this book look like? It seems like it was a combination, it could have been a combination of like actual research, but also going back in your own archives. That was just it. I knew that I wanted to do recipes that one that are tried and true, that I've done as a caterer that I just want to share. And I want bakers at home to have those, especially if you're new. There are recipes that I took from my travels during the show, Chasing Flavor, that I wanted to share. And I did versions of them myself. There are recipes that I did a mash up honoring culture, but I do in like the buttermilk ball buns. Because if I have a buttermilk biscuit and there's a ball bun,

21:32I'm like, why can't I mash that one? Right? And honoring the culture where they come from. And then there were some recipes like tongue and cheek. People always talk about me, oh, you put sugar on your grits. Hold up. I did have questions about that. But go ahead. I thought that. Yeah, that did. I did. But because porridge, morning porridge, has sugar and butter, right? I eat my oatmeal like that, sure, yeah. Oatmeal, rice, grits. I don't put sugar in grits that are under shrub, but when it's a porridge in the morning, it's not an or thing. It is an ant. And so sort of tongue and cheek for all the people who are at me online and felt the places in my face. I said, I'm going to do a grits brulee. It's sort of a reckless take on sweet grits. And if you do this recipe, you too will be putting sugar in your grits. Okay, you have actually, you've made a good, this is the first good case I've heard for sugar in the grits.

22:34I can see to you on that point, Carla. I can see to you on that point. What's a recipe in this new cookbook that you feel is perfect for someone who's maybe looking to switch things up in their life. I do a take on a Turkish pizza, which are made in like football style. And they're like, oh, the part is. Oh, the part is. The pizza's. Yeah, the pides. And I love, I love this recipe because one, there is the whole dough thing. I do not do a lot of doughwork. So when I started working on this book, I'd always done rolls and stuff for forever. I really wanted to get into bread making because I love bread. And so the reason I'm saying these are great recipes is because as I'm teaching myself to do these things, I am giving you the instruction as a newbie. And I want you to have the success in even going from. Do you ever make bread? No, I've never made bread.

23:34I've been scared to actually make one of my goals for this fall is to make bread. I've never done it. Yes. So it's so funny that I would choose this. A lot of times when you have a recipe, it'll say put the dough in a bowl, cover it, let rise. And then you look at it until this doubled. Is it doubled? I don't know. So I started using a straight edge bucket because the bakers and doing all this research and finding what is the easiest thing to do. A lot of bread bakers are doing the sourdough. It's a bucket because when the dough goes in there, you mark it with a piece of tape and you can actually see when it has done. Okay. So I'm going through hundreds of recipes trying to figure out what is the best way. And I feel like as I taught myself and I had all these learnings, I'm distilling all of this information and giving it back to you. Another thing is using a thermometer. Using a thermometer in pound cakes and breads because you don't want to pull it and it's wrong. Right.

24:35You know, little things like that. I never even thought about that. I haven't meet the thermometer. I use it for meat fish, things like that. Never even thought to use it for cake. Never thought. I, girl, me too. And I'm the pound cake girl at Christmas. That's my role. Seriously, exactly. And have you ever pulled it too soon and it was undone time? And as soon as you're pulling it, it's like, oh, this is jiggly. This is not good. And then it starts, it's like, oh my god, the crunchy top. And then the crunchy top is like going down into the cake. Yeah. I know. I know, girl. So it should be between 205 degrees for pound cake. And this is why you got the book and why you have the one woman show because you have the lessons. You have the things to teach us. Oh my gosh, Ms. Carla Hall, I so appreciate this conversation. This has been a joy. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. I love different things. That was chef, author, and actor, Carla Hall. Her new cookbook, Carla Bakes, Sweet, Savory, and From The Heart is Out Now. This episode of It's Been A Minute was produced by Corey Antonio Rose.

25:38This episode was edited by Nina Patuck. Our supervising producer is Sheriff Vincent. Our executive producer is Barton Gurdwood. Our VP of programming is Yolanda Sanguini. All right, that's all for this episode of It's Been A Minute from NPR. I'm Brittany Luce. Talk soon. This message comes from a thumbtack. Recommendations can be great. Maybe someone recommended this podcast, and here you are. But home projects are different. If a podcast isn't your thing, you lose a few minutes. If you hire your cousin's neighbor to mount your TV, you might end up with a lopsided screen and wall damage. That's why thumbtack works. It matches people with top rated local pros, with photos, reviews, and credentials all in one place. For your next home project, try thumbtack. Hire the right pro today. Opposition to data centers cuts across party lines,

26:39which is rare in Wisconsin politics. But who has the power to decide whether a data center is built? We'll dig into the politics of data centers. And who has power in Wisconsin? On the swing state of the Union podcast, from WUWM, a part of the NPR network. Listen on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.