Chilling New Details About How the Perp Got Inside Nancy Guthrie’s Home | Nancy Guthrie Missing

0:00Hey everyone, I'm Ashley Banfield and this is Drop Dead Serious. Thank you so much for being here. I have big news to share with you. This is sort of the biggest thing I've learned in the last, I don't know how many days, but a detail of the crime scene at Nancy Guthrie's home. This is day 58 in the investigation into who took Nancy Guthrie from her home in Tucson, Arizona. And if you've been following my channel, thank you, I appreciate it. If you haven't, what? Subscribe, it's right here and it's free and it's easy and it's cheap and it's great because I will give you updates and you will not even have to look for them. They'll just blink. They'll be in your inbox. And thank you for members. I appreciate you guys joining as well. If you want to be a member, there's another thing down there too, so join. So let me tell you, from the beginning, day three, I had a source that told me back door wide open, right?

1:01And a lot about this stuff too, but let's just focus on that for now because that's the information I'm getting more on today. And Savannah Guthrie gave an interview to Hota Copy on the Today Show and said her sister was on the phone with her and Savannah's in New York saying, Zomom is missing. And the back doors were propped open. That's how Savannah worded it. And it seemed like maybe it was a misstatement. Nope, she said it two different times in the interview. Back doors propped open. Well this sounded very different than the source that I had. Back door wide open on day three. I've had two subsequent law enforcement sources since that have confirmed back door wide open. So I started thinking and Grey Hughes has been very helpful in navigating the back of the house to determine that there are three back doors. Originally I thought there were only two because you can't see one of them. It's real hard to see it.

2:01It's like perpendicular to the length of the house because the back patio kind of juts out towards you if you're standing in the back yard and then continues. And that door is perpendicular to the length of the house. And so I've learned that there are two doors on that back door to the left of the patio sofa, the one you can't see. It enters the kitchen. That door goes into the kitchen and there are two doors. One is the screen door and one is the inside door. And those were the doors plural that were left open. So when Savannah says the back doors were propped open, it's one entrance, but two doors. I had guessed that that might be what had happened. That one of the doors had a screen door or a storm door, but I didn't know which one. And it is not the one to the right of the sofa on the outdoor back patio because there's

3:06a lovely blue-ish door to the right. No screen door that we could see there. Maybe it's on the inside, I don't know. The entryway that was left open was that one that goes in the kitchen to the left of the back patio sofa when you're looking at the back. So that's one big earth shattering piece of information that I was able to determine after talking to several sources in law enforcement. Another detail that really floored me was that the perpetrator used Nancy's flower pots to do this. He took her beautiful flower pots that I can only imagine she spent time nurturing and making beautiful for her back patio and he used them for his evil fucking plot. He took her beautiful flower pots and he propped open that screen door.

4:08Remember I also told you that my sources in law enforcement told me that the Guthrie kids had told them in law enforcement that their mom rarely locked her back doors. This might have been one of the ones that was unlocked and he opened that screen door and he propped it open with a flower pot. I'm not able to tell you if that inner door also had a flower pot. It is possible that door just stays open because it's a heavier door. In one of the photographs you can see it behind Savannah as she's playing guitar in her kitchen and Annie's off to her left at the kitchen window, the kitchen sink, that kitchen sink and window is just overlooking what would be the flower pots. It's just so frustrating to think that filthy, vile beast deflowered that kitchen, that entrance, that family home that he did.

5:09My sources say that's where he got his entry. But that's not the only thing that he did. He also took Nancy's beautiful flower pots and he propped open the back gate. You know the area that you can enter the back yard. If you're looking at her garage, the back gate would be to the right of the garage. In between the Cassita, the guest house and Nancy's garage. That's how he got in to the back. And he propped open the back gate with again Nancy's flower pots using them for his evil. It's so fascinating about this is why. Why did you prop them open? What was the reason that you needed those things to stay open? The back gate, enter back kitchen doors, screen door and heavy door. Why did you need them to stay open?

6:10Hmm? Scumbag? What was your plan? What was your sick twisted fucking plan? Did you know that there was an elderly lady inside all by herself and you knew where her bedroom was? You just have to get through the kitchen, take a right, go to the family room and then into the back master bedroom all the way over on the right side of the house. If you're looking from the back yard, did you know? Had you been looking through her windows, making sure that you knew how to get through that place in the dark? Is that what you were doing? Did you think maybe there is somebody in there so I better have a fast exit? Because I'll tell you something, Lindsay, my producer and I, we went back in time to look at other sick twisted criminals who break into people's homes at night and if you look back at the Golden State Killer James DiAngelo, right, Joseph James DiAngelo. He had a habit of leaving doors and windows open so he would have a rapid escape route

7:15if something went sideways while he was doing his dastardly deeds inside. He had pre-planned it too because apparently he used to stalk his victims beforehand. Actually, we knew that from the trial, you know, we knew that he would stalk his victims in advance and there's talk that this guy did too, right? Because even though Sheriff Nano says, I don't know that we can really trust that the picture of the perpetrator without his backpack and without his gun, we can really trust that that's from a different night. Well, you know, Fox Digital, Michael Ruiz has two law enforcement sources who said it's from the 11th of January, two weeks before Nancy went missing. So this guy was stalking Nancy and stalking the house and finding where the back door was unlocked and finding where the spotlights needed to be knocked off, you know, and smashed, right? Because we saw them hanging there. We saw those spotlights dangling by the other back door that goes into the garage or to

8:19a storage room. We're not sure what's inside that door, but it's not necessarily the house. Maybe he took those lights out two weeks early knowing I'm coming this way. I'm going to prop that door open. I'm going to come in this way through the back gate. I'm going to prop that gate open. Those spotlights won't be on anymore because I busted them early and I'm going to go over and those doors are often left unlocked. Going to the children, Nancy would leave her back doors unlocked oftentimes. And then maybe he had done enough stalking to know how to get through that house to his victim. But then what? This is what's so confounding. So then why did you go up the front walk and right up to the front door and disable that camera if you weren't planning to use that door? And eventually you did use that door because we know that Nancy's blood, according to my source, starts in the front foyer of her house inside those blood droplets. And my law enforcement sources say they then continue over the threshold and out the

9:20front door. And then we've all seen Brian N. Tins video and Michael Ruiz's video of the blood droplets on the outside entrance. Those tiles going down the front walk, stopping at the driveway, presumably where he loaded her into a vehicle. So there's a lot of things I've been trying to think through, right? A lot of things I've been trying to figure out. Did he plan to make Nancy walk at gunpoint out that back kitchen door and then out through the propped open screen door, kitchen door and propped open gate? And then maybe down the long dark driveway to where he parked in the dark, avoiding the cameras of her house. Right? She's got a camera at her garage. She's got a camera going out the front, you know, obviously the doorbell cam. But then did he think, oh dear, I didn't plan for this. Mrs. Guthrie can't walk that far because Savannah's now told us that on a good day her

10:22mom could get to the mailbox, but there weren't many days like that she said. So maybe this guy didn't count on Mrs. Guthrie not being able to walk as far as he had planned to walk her. And so now he's got to change his plan. Now he's got to go out the front door with her, right? But we also know that it appears, it was at 147 AM that he got to that front doorbell cam because the sheriff's put out the timeline saying doorbell camera disconnects at 147 AM. So maybe he was planning, before he even went to the back to take out that camera first. He's got his backpack on, right? He's still got the gun. Everything still sort of hasn't been perpetrated yet. He hasn't used his kit yet on his back. And maybe his thought was I better take out this camera first because eventually I plan to drive and I don't want this camera seeing the car drive. Also want to know if this camera's live and connected to the cops or if she hears something

11:23and calls the cops. So I'm going to like take that camera out and then I'm going to wait. Gray Hughes thinks that's a good theory like that's his theory that he took up the camera and then he went to a waiting car far away, waited it out and thought, okay, it's time. At 2.12 AM, here's another tip. The sheriff said that in the timeline that a person is detected on camera but there's no video of it because Nancy didn't have the subscription. But how do you know it's person? If there's no video, how do you know it's person? Often, often you get these alerts saying, person at your front door. So maybe there's like that was what they got from the back end servers when they did the scratching at Google. But one thing that the sheriff said, and I credit Gray Hughes for this, the sheriff said, well, maybe it was an animal we don't know, okay, well then it's outside, it's outside because it's not an animal inside, right? We know that Nancy doesn't have an animal inside by this point he's giving this news conference

12:28we know that. So that's a bit of a telltale, right, that he says, well, maybe it's an animal but at 2.12 there's a person detected on camera. We're still completely in the dark about inside cameras. I think the sheriff mentioned something about additional cameras inside. But again, he said could have been an animal. So maybe that is 2.12 AM. He's walking out on the Cassita, Cam, right? It's shooting the backyard and yeah, the back flood lights have been knocked off but they can see stuff in the dark. Or maybe the driveway Cam. Maybe he's walk past the driveway Cam and he's getting his vehicle at this point because he knows he's got to get it closer to the house, got to get it closer to that front door because he now planning to take her out the front closer because she can't walk very far. I'm trying to think of all these things and I'm not as good at it as people who actually have worked in the business in the past, which is why I called Bob Krieger. I've seen some really good interviews with Bob.

13:29My colleague at news nation, Brian Enten has done some great interviews with Bob Krieger and he's a retired lieutenant former SWAT commander for Pima County but he's not with them anymore. So now he's kind of from the outside looking in and trying to analyze all the things that he's seeing from people like me and from Brian and from Michael Ruiz and Grey Hughes. And so I call Bob just to sort of game out what this means, this new information that I got from my sources that the back doors were one entrance into the kitchen, propped open with Nancy's potted plants and that the back gate is also propped open with Nancy's potted plants. And whether he thinks like me or whether he's got a whole other theory about what might have happened to Nancy given this new kind of dynamic, right? Is it an egress or is this a plan to walk Nancy out and why then is there blood at the front door going out to the driveway?

14:29And I don't think you're going to guess what Bob Krieger says because it's not exactly what I think. I'm going to have that for you in just a moment. So Bob, all of this is so intriguing as we learn little pieces of what happened at Mrs. Guthrie's house. The fact that we now know which of the doors were propped open and it's just a single entrance. It's not multiple doors in the back were propped open. Is any of this sort of surprising to you? Yes and no, not really knowing why or who propped them open, but it would tell me that if it was a suspect who did it, they probably did it to have a quick avenue of egress to get out if something happened or went kind of against their plan and just so you don't get lost in the house. They're going in, even houses are small, sometimes people can get turned around. There's reasons why it could have been and a little surprising because it's going to guess at one o'clock in the morning, it's not going to show up too much in the neighborhood

15:31but it is the backside of the house. But still a propped open door or something that you look at and say, that's kind of weird. Weird, but do you see it a lot in the investigations that you guys have done? Over the years, do you see that a lot? I personally have it know, usually it's either forced entry, which is no way to cover that up or the doors are closed and just left unlocked. So see something propped open, kind of like this whole investigation has been, it is definitely a little bit different than traditional things that I've seen in burglaries and any kind of call or someone goes into someone else's house. I'm also trying to think through the gate, you know. So we know that he made entry through this back open door. If you're looking at the back of the house, it's to the left of that little patio sofa. You can't see it because the door is perpendicular to the length of the house. So you can't see it from most of the drone shots in the back, but it's there and I missed

16:33it at first and then found it later. But he made his plan and he went in those doors and he propped him open with the flower pot. I'm not sure if he propped open the inner kitchen door, but he propped open the outer screen door. But he propped open that gate as well and I'm gaming that out trying to think of, so is this again what you just mentioned that the quick egress or is this something that guys will often do? Quick egress, most gates, honestly most people actually lack their gates more than they lack their doors. So to find a gate that was open, and again, I think we're assuming that he did this because I also say this, it's not that uncommon for folks to prop their gates open. You know, if you're doing something going in and out a lot, now maybe not an 84 year old woman. There's a little less probability there, I would guess. But yeah, that's, you know, again, though the way just defencing and walls are too solid, it's a little different than like, you know, just your normal cyclone fence and things like that.

17:33So if they can't find the gate, so it's to see one, both of them done is, I guess a little more, it makes a little more sense is then just see one of them done. So I think I'm trying to think like this, this monster, right? He's got a plan, probably knows who's there, probably knows who he's going in for by this point. The back flood lights had been smashed, probably on another date, probably on the date that he showed up without the gun and the backpack on that front video. And he makes his way into the back yard, knowing he's going to hit one of these back doors and the Guthrie kids told the police that their mom used to leave several of her back doors unlocked. But it almost feels as though he's planning to bring her out that way because if you're propping him open, maybe it's a good quick egress, but it's also a way I'll bring her out this way as well. So it was not to go out the front of the house because, God, what if, what if someone's driving by? Yeah, possibly.

18:36If I were doing it, I would probably go out the front, the back yard with the yard itself, that's easy to get through. But once you get beyond that back wall, you're looking at, you know, just desert area, a lot of rocks, a lot of brush, a lot of cactus, things that are going to make you fall down if you're not familiar with it. It's definitely a much more difficult route to go. And it's not easy to get to a road or a car that might be waiting or any of these things. So whether you're carrying her or whether she's walking with you, definitely much easier route out the front. Well, I'm thinking he's got the car at her garage. So he just needs to clear that open gate with her and load her into a vehicle or he's got his car down and I think I'm going to retract that statement because I don't think he would have brought the car up to the garage scene on the camera. I think he's left his vehicle down by the road. And maybe he's realizing when he's inside, my plan to bring her out the back kitchen door,

19:39out the back gate that I propped open, out past the garage and down the driveway, it's not going to work. This woman apparently unbeknownst to this guy can't walk that far. All of these things are possible and the mobility is an issue, just the way to loan. Most people don't understand the difficulties of carrying someone who weighs, you know, 150 pounds, 120 pounds. It's not easy. So all of these things are going to go into whatever plan that he may have had. You know, personally, I think there was probably other folks involved. So maybe the car drove up and picked them up right in the driveway. But we did at this point, we just don't know. Yeah, I'm wondering. I'm not so sure about a second perp. I don't know. I feel like there's no honor among thieves and there's $1.2 million at stake right now. So who knows? But I wonder if, of course, the idea to give yourself a quick exit and run and get to your

20:40car would be a reason you leave those propped open, but also would be a reason I can just walk this woman at gunpoint. I don't have to carry anybody. But lo and behold, no, you can't. You can't walk her at gunpoint because Savannah let us know on a good day. She could make it to the mailbox, but most days, no. So thinking like a thief, if you're back on the force, how are you now gaming? How everything went down inside that house? Probably not according to plan. Because whatever that plan is, things, I think clearly didn't go a way they were planning those two. So however, they decided to take her out of the house was that way. There's so many different options. I personally still think it was the front door and probably just hopefully walking, but again, if someone's walking or probably making noise, there's so many variables that go into it. It's also, if he was doing everything via the back, why did he go to the front and dismantle

21:50that camera? Because that sort of throws all of these theories off, gaming what happened inside, given everything's propped open, but he's still taken out the front doorbell cam. So given all that, what are your thoughts? Something happened probably that he couldn't walk her out. Like we've all said, Savannah said that she couldn't walk, except on a good day to the mailbox. You're waking up at one o'clock in the morning, whatever time it was. I think that was an unplanned for event. The easiest way was quick out the front door to a car that was probably waiting or came up to pick them up. Let me ask you something. If he, again, he's made his way in the back, he's propped open the gate, he's propped open the kitchen door. Maybe for his fast egress, but also maybe because that's his plan to get Nancy out and then he realizes he can't. So now he's thinking, my car's too far away, but it could be close and I could get her to the end of the front walkway, which we know is where she walked out, given the blood drops

22:53in the front foie over the threshold as my sources have told me of the front door, out on the front entrance tiles, and then down the walkway where it stops. Do you think that he restrained Nancy in some way so that he could run back out and get that car and bring it closer? I think she was probably restrained inside in some manner, but this is where I go back to. I think one person could have done this. That's too much going on to restrain, to try and stay here while I go get the car. Again, I know nothing about it. That's just a gut instinct more than anything else. If he did do that, it would have been difficult because the driveway is not huge, but it's still going to take some time and you're putting a lot of, I guess, restrained with what, yeah, risking to what you've done to leave, to leave her there to go try and get a car

23:53to bring it up. I was wondering if maybe being tied or restrained in some way may have caused the injuries on an 84-year-old woman's skin that might have bled, that might have been part of the reason she was bleeding at that front door, but I still can't get past 12 AM and 147 AM because on the timeline, again, Sheriff Nannos, who knows if you can trust what he has put out and if it has to be changed again, but he says that the doorbell cam disconnects at 147 AM. At 2.12 AM, person is detected on the camera. There's no video available, but then he said in a news conference, it could have been an animal, which means an outdoor camera, right? He's not going to be an animal inside. Knowing that, I'm trying to figure out if the doorbell cam disconnects, that's probably the front, that's probably when he's first arrived. He's still got the backpack on and he's disconnecting it, but why?

24:56Why if his plan was to go in the back and prop open those doors? That's a good question. If I had been doing that, the first thing I'd done was destroy that camera, ripped it right off the wall, even if I was planning on using the back door because that's just another piece of evidence that is going to be brought back to me, like it essentially has. But even if you're doing that with the back door, my thought process is, all right, it's just a way to stay off of more video. You're going to want to remove all video cameras as quickly as possible if you're going through this scenario, at least I would want to. Is it possible that he showed up, left his car out in the road, walked up that horrible moment where we saw him on cameras at 147, he manhandles it, and eventually I believe he took the vines and pried the camera off, but another source said the cameras were smashed off. There's glass shards that were witnessed down below by Michael Ruiz of Fox Digital, and then he went back to his vehicle to bring that vehicle in because now it can't be seen

26:00on that front doorbell cam and then planned to go in through the back. But still, it's weird that he wouldn't come out with her out that back way. He chose to go out the front and going back to the car issue in that neighborhood. I don't know if you've been there or not, but in most neighborhoods and Tucson, the car is going to stick out like a sore film on the street more so than in a driveway, even if it pulls in and turns its lights off at one o'clock in the morning. People will notice it way more parked on the street just because of the dynamic of the neighborhood like that. So again, a lot of different theories and parks and how it parks and angles of view of the cameras. I can't imagine he did a lot of studying on what type of camera was to see what your field of view is, to perfectly park it outside of view, but you've got the pillars on the side that are blocking views and things like that, so it's not a rocket scientist to park it out of view if you need to. I think you're right. I think you could pull in Nancy's driveway.

27:03If you're staring at the front of the house, her right-hand driveway, not the left-hand drive, the right-hand driveway, that would take you to the garage if you want to go there, but don't drive all the way to the garage and don't drive all the way to the front door. I think there's a sweet spot in there that he could have put a vehicle and stayed off of all cameras and maybe that he had, I think this guy had seen it. I think he had staked out that house. He had probably broken the flood lights in advance. I think the January 11th, again, Michael Ruiz from Fox Digital, talked to two law enforcement sources who both said January 11th was that other imagery's got no backpack and no gun. Do you feel that that's plausible? Yes, very much so. If indeed that, regardless of what the date is, if this suspect was there on a different day, it was there for one reason, in my opinion, that's to see what's going on in the neighborhood, to see what's going on at the house and to make plans and how to best succeed and kidnap Nancy, which includes looking for cameras, looking for lights, all of those things that,

28:07those would be the first things that law enforcement would look at as well once they got there trying to gather the evidence. Do you think the whole notion that the back doors, again, that's really clear, back doors is one entrance. It's a screen door and a kitchen door. It's one entrance, not all the doors, but do you think that's stymied the investigators, the way I feel? They always know more than I do, but do you think that they're stymied by the back door plan and the front door blood? No, both of them, they're the same thing. It's a way in and it's a way out, whether they're propped open, whether there's four century, whether they locked them on their way as they were going out the front door. It's just another piece of evidence for them. They're going to look at the exact same way, collect what they need to collect, swap what they need to swap, collect their DNA, all of those things. It's not, in my opinion, type of smoking gun or anything like that. It's just a plan that may or may not have been used by the suspect. Do you think it's fair to assume that they would have focused real heavily on those door

29:12handles and those flower pots for the possibility of his DNA, because, again, he's got gloves on, but he's got a light, I think, in that mouth of his, and it had to go in and it had to come out, which means those gloves probably have some DNA on them, which means anything he touched those gloves. So do you think they may have gotten the mixed DNA sample off the flower pots with the door handles? It could have come from anywhere, but those would be primary places to swap, to test anywhere a hand is likely to go. That's where you go. You just start looking around and it looks like it's out of place or have been moved. You're going to hit those areas next, and it's all just probability at that point. What is most likely to touch door handles and things that are out of place? So yeah, that would be a very likely source for good DNA if they do indeed have any. And there really are only certain people who should have their dirty little fingers on an older woman's door handles, you know? There are very specific people within their inner circle, and then there are people who

30:13absolutely should not have their hands on her back door handles. But that leads me to the question of the CSI efforts. Like, just as an, you know, look, you're in, you're an insider, but you're an outsider, you're a former Pima County deputy. But do you think the proper amount of CSI collection was done? Because originally it felt like 30 hours, man, it was done. That scene was released to the family, and then lo and behold, FBI shows up later. But do you think the right amount enough was done to gather the things that I assume they gathered? It's so hard to say, and as a, you know, armchair quarterback the next days, maybe they should have kept it longer, but I've said since day one, I've worked scenes where we've processed it. And then, you know, we leave. And you can only do what you know at that moment in time. You know, you're not going to cut all these walls down and things like that. So it's so hard to say on the timeline, do I think they did a good job when they were

31:15there knowing the detectives and the forensic folks who they're absolutely. They did their job. That doesn't mean that they could have overlooked something because that happens. And when you do that, you go back and you just, you try and write that ship. You know, to, that's one of those things where it's easy to armchair quarterback and say, you should have held this for months and months and months like we should still have it as a scene. But there's a reason this factor that goes into all of these things. You know, what is the family want? You know, what are the people who have standing to the house? They have a right to their house back. Once, you know, the crime chain is processed and once you kind of looked at everything and done it as much as you can do, you can't really just sit there and hold onto it. And so it's a long way of saying it's hard to say, you know, Savannah came back to the home and I assume that her siblings did as well at some point. I just wondered from a police perspective, it's not the job of the sheriff's, it's not

32:19the job of the police to clean up a crime scene. It's a horrible thing, but it is the job of, you know, calling a, there are services, there are literally services that do this. And I don't know, I never saw that kind of a van show up, it doesn't mean it didn't. But when Savannah came back through the home, do you think that, that blood still would have been in that front foie that I've, my source has told me, was there inside the house? Or do you think that the police may have put a cover over it so that she could walk through the home without seeing that? Like, what is the protocol in that? I would imagine, because I don't know when the first day Savannah was back at the house was, but my guess would be that the local family would have already been through their relatively quick. I would have, if I were in this type of call, I would have wanted them there as quickly as possible to be inside that house, to tell me, hey, does anything look odd? What's going on? That's not normal to this house. So whether that's one of the other siblings or son-in-law, or whoever, but someone who

33:21has an intimate knowledge of the house going back to the other question, probably, unless the family cleaned it up once it was initially turned back to them. And from what I saw, from the video and some of the still photos, there wasn't a lot of blood. At least with law enforcement, because there's a significant amount of blood, some drops here and there, you know, easily wiped up with a paper towel and some bleach, or however you're going to do it. But yeah, unfortunately, and that's some of the hardest things as cops you have to do. It's like, all right, we've done our job. Good luck with the rest of this. And typically we'll pass on information for services and things like that, but that's part of that side of the job that nobody ever thinks about. You know, who's going to clean this mess up? And like you said, there are services out there. So was it probably still there, unless the family cleaned it up, yes, it was probably still there. And I'll bet you, Bob, honestly, the media was there instantly, like on Monday, Sheriff Nannos had a news conference because it was such a big story.

34:24You know, 24 hours after it had happened, it was a very big story. And I don't think anybody noticed or was able to identify that family members had come that next day to clean up and probably the opposite. We saw no family members for weeks because they were in hiding. I mean, they had, you know, Savannah talked about it. They got a couple of places that they moved between and they said the media was closing in. So they stayed away. So I just wonder if on that day, weeks later, that would have been such a difficult thing. Would the police have been involved in saying mitigating how awful that was or would that have really been up to them to sort of deal with what the crime scene presented? You would tell them what they were walking into. You wouldn't want them to walk into something blind. And again, if there's the amount of blood at the front area, whether it's inside or outside, wasn't a lot. And that's why I still would guess that the family probably would have done some cleanup, at least on the inside, especially if they were there within those first hours before

35:26a week, before any news conference even happened. Now, again, if it was a crime scene, the investigators I would hope would not have let them clean anything up until it was turned back over to them, but in that first 30 hours, you know, right after that. But I personally, if I were passing on the information, I would absolutely tell them. And that's usually when the conversation would happen, well, what can we do about that? And I hear some resources for you to try and, you know, so you don't, no family should have to clean up a scene period. It is unfortunate that, you know, law enforcement, fire, you know, it's just not part of what we do. So there are these folks who do do it. And, you know, that's why we can kind of help and guide in that area. Yeah. Yeah. Well, by the time the white tent went up at the outside of the front door, I don't know if the blood was cleaned off and those are tiles or sort of porous, there may have still been evidence of it. It's maybe really hard to clean. And I don't know again. I didn't see any cleaning services show up and, you know, there was live streamers that

36:29were trained on 24, seven. So it would be pretty surprising if that was missed, not to say it might not be, but it would be a bit surprising. You know, I wanted to ask you about the searching because, look, a lot of people in Savannah included are almost bracing for the news that maybe Mrs. Guthrie did not survive this, right? And yet, that would tell you that there may be a body somewhere. So do you have any idea why the sheriff would rebuff the efforts of the Cajun Navy, you know, a well-respected group that's been around since Katrina, at the least, offering free services to come and help look. There were others that did as well. Any idea why and whether that was a bad idea or a, were there redeeming reasons why? Again, those are one of those questions. This is, that Pima County is so vast, you know. Do they need to probably walk through her neighborhood yard yard? No.

37:30And quite honestly, you know, unless they're going to front doors and knocking on people's yards, hey, can I go in your backyard and look? There's no real, like I said, redeeming quality to that. There were air searches done granted a little bit later than they should have been done. We won't talk about that, but, but, but those resources were up. I know when those resources were starting to be discussed, it was a week or so later. At that point, I don't see any reason why not to let them do it. Other than making sure that they know where they can and can't go legally, because again, this is the Old West and there are people who don't want to walk into their property and they might encounter someone with the gun or dogs or things like that, that being said. They're doing it. They're going to do it the right way. They're not going to kick indoors and fences and things like that. They're probably going to knock out indoors. But I do know that the investigators did a thorough search of the area those first couple days. But you know, it's a vast desert, right?

38:30That's not a yard. It's not private property. I would think that they should welcome anybody that might want to bring their resources. You know, some of these guys are former law enforcement. Some of them have ATVs. Many of them bring their boats when they're coming to terrain that requires boats. That's why they're called the Cajun Navy. It just feels to me like that's still something that could be done that's still, you know, mostly. Especially in more of the outskirts areas, absolutely. Let them go do it. There's no harm from them looking as far as I would be concerned. So the answer to the original question, any redeeming qualities to have them not do it, I don't think so. I think, you know, a thousand sets of eyes looking for are better than 50 sets of eyes looking for. You mentioned something about the air search and I could hear it in your voice. Talk to me. Talk to me, Goose. What are your thoughts? It just goes back to some of the things that the sheriff has done previous before he this happened. The same reason why there were, you know, less experienced investigators in the homicide

39:33unit because he chose to move investigators out who were experienced. He and his crew chose to remove a pilot from the air unit who was supposed to work that day because of some issues that arose, some discipline issues and, you know, in a vacuum, hey, you've got to be a good employee, right? But if you're only not a good employee because you talk kind of grumpy to people or, you know, you're kind of short with them, that's just how a lot of cops are and a lot of people are in general. Being a pilot is completely different than being just, not just from being a patrol deputy. That is a skill that we have literally spent hundreds of thousands of dollars to get you to a point to where that asset, and I will tell you this, that airplane that we have, the airplanes that we have are the two most important resources within our agency, life-saving resources for their technology, for their ability to find things on the ground, they're more important than a SWAT team, they're more important than a homicide investigator.

40:36In the moment, and to have that shelf or even a couple hours because I mad at you, that's an unfortunate decision. And that's... How many hours are we talking? Hours or days? I heard it was just a few. I heard it was like three or four hours before at least the helicopter was up, but the helicopter in searching this type of thing, yes, it's a better platform than nothing, but still not nearly as good as that. I don't know the exact time for him when the airplane actually got off the ground, but I do know several hours. Wow. Nano said, let's see, Monday, which was 24 to 30 hours. I think when he gave his news conference, around 30 hours after Mrs. Guthrie disappeared. He said, we threw everything at this. We threw our air resources, dogs, we threw our people, and now we're kind of calling off the search. And I thought, hang on, isn't this when you really start? Well, when you think about that, the search is going to go so far out. There's a science to searching, searching for missing people, searching for lost hikers,

41:39all of that stuff. Pima County's the size of Rhode Island and Connecticut combined. So you're not going to search every inch of Pima County. It's just the nature of the beast. Nobody has those amount of resources. You're going to search a reasonable area based on the information that you have. And I would hope that he was reaching out to a search and rescue supervisors because they are the ones who are experts at searching. They know how far to go, reasonfulness, hopefully they're working traffic cameras, which there aren't a lot of, but all the resources that they're using, the nest cams from neighbors and things like that. Because again, you have to be looking for something and you have, there's the, at some point, you do have to say, all right, we've done everything. Now, could we search every inch and a grid search? Yes, it's going to take hundreds of up years, probably, to do all Pima County. So again, that's one of those armchair quarterbacking decisions. We've done this before. We date. The sheriff's department has done this before. This isn't the first time a person has gone missing and, you know, they do, they are

42:44the experts between search and rescue and the investigators. They know what to do. And so they're talking and making these decisions as a group, I would hope. Well, Pima County's big and yet, gosh, I don't know how many weeks ago it was. I had a law enforcement source who told me that the search for Nancy extended into a neighboring county with the signal sniffer. Did you hear much about the success or the frustrations with that? I heard about it. I don't know that all on details of the sniffer, actually, I've talked to some of the folks who worked with it. So I'm familiar with it. And, you know, I know that there was a search done at the landfill by a device or an airplane out of Ryan Field, which is on the Western suburbs of Pima County. And I, because I saw it's like pattern and all that, and clearly it was searching for that. It wouldn't just go over a landfill for no, for any other reason. And yet the sheriff said it didn't have anything to do with law enforcement. I find that hard to believe. The timing and that you're not doing a LIDAR search of a landfill for any other reason.

43:48And I'm not saying they were LIDAR. If I were a betting man, they were sniffing, because that was when it was very hot, the possibility that they could still be a single from a pacemaker. Well, that pacemaker will continue to emit signals for years. Yes. And do you think that they'll continue to use that LIDAR effort, and where is that kind of like one and done? They will, if they get something to go on again, because it's not knowing, you know, my guess is if it's off a Bluetooth single, that's a much shorter area. You have to be within a certain distance of the ground. I could imagine. Like 800 feet. That's what, that's what many of the tech experts, the guy behind it. That's, that's a lot of that I would, yeah, that's, that's much more than I would have thought. So it's still, it's still viable. But again, how do you do it, you know, resource management, you know, one thing I brought up with some other folks, there's still a budget associated with this, and it's horrible to say, you know, but the Sheriff's Department, the FBI, they are a business, they're not

44:51a business. But you know what I mean? They've got, they've got, they've got resources, they've got exactly. So, you know, what I love to be able to fly a drone all over every inch of Pima County for the next, however many hours, days, once weeks it would take to see if we could find it. Yes. Is that practical? It's really not. So, again, it's a balancing act. It's like, I keep thinking about when I covered the missing MH370 in the Indian Ocean. And I remember it's, it's smaller than a needle in a A-stack, you know, and it was just so frustrating. To that end, do you have any idea about the task force? Like, when does that start to, to draw down as well? If it 400 officers drew down to a task force, when does that start to draw down? I think that, that'll stay in play for quite a while, because if you look at it, what they're doing now, they're falling up on the leads, if, you know, the number that was thrown out there early, I was 40,000 leads in the first couple of weeks, it would take months and months to go through that amount of leads. So, what they're doing now is probably just that, falling up on those, going back out,

45:56knocking on doors, knocking on doors of folks who might have been in town, you know, who might not even know this is going on, because they don't follow the media for whatever reasons. So I do think that task force will stay in play for a while. You know, you're going to put a task force together until I've been a week or two now that the task force, maybe three, has been in place. That's, that's going to go on probably until this case becomes cold, and it doesn't become cold until everything has been exhausted, and there's a lot to exhausted in this, in this case. So, what's your definition of, my definition of a while is it's three hours till dinner. What's your definition of a while? For a case like this, years maybe, quite honestly, it's until you don't have anything left. That's, you know, homicide cases that go cold, they go cold after years. It's not a couple of days, it's not a couple of weeks, not a couple of months, and I think with society being, hey, we need something right now because of our 24 hour new cycles and immediate access to everything, folks just don't understand that.

46:59Just, concerning is not a word. This is not surprising to me. This is just how cases work. We're only 50, people say we're 50 days in do it or however many it is, 60 days, and I'm like, we're only 60 days in do it. 58, yeah. Yeah, yeah, we're only 58 days into this. That's, that's just, that's the tip, that's the tip of the iceberg. This is going to go on unless there's a huge break, if you said, on or amongst these, I do think there's a good possibility that someone is going to say something eventually because money talks or they're going to find something or a video or something is going to pop up and that might not be for a week or a month or a year or two years or three years. Someone took someone's car and borrowed it and it was annoying and didn't ask and then brought it back or stole a car and returned it in a weird way and you didn't even know but do you think you parked that way on February 1st or an ex-girlfriend? She may have not been an ex-girlfriend that night but she may be an ex-girlfriend in two, six, eight months.

48:00Yep. That's usually what you guys are, right? You go, lick your chops thinking, just wait, someone's going to get pissed off at this guy. And that's usually, here's a secret sauce, most bad guys telling bad guys. That's how a percent of good crimes are solved. It's someone telling on their friend or their cellmate or something because they got drunk or they got high and they said something that they probably shouldn't have and they just, it's just a little crack in the dam that we need and it happens all the time. But sometimes it takes a while, right? And also the bad guys who do this, how often, they're not professional secret keepers. How often do they eventually let on, like their conscience or whatever it is that's on their shoulders finally lets the blood gates open? That's hard to put a number on but it's high, you know, and I wouldn't call it conscience or guilt. It's bragging. Hey, I got away with this and you know, you'd be surprised how many times they tell someone

49:01they've known for two hours because they just became cellmates at the jail or the prison. And that's where it happens. Dude, you've known him for a day and you're giving up your deepest secrets and he's going to tell someone so he can get more day room or a better location, whatever it might be. What about confidential sources out there? You know, I know how it works out there, I know they had gang units, how they work. Do you suspect that's a really big part right now? This investigation is getting out to all the confidential sources that the police use offering all sorts of incentives to say, look, you guys talk. Somebody's going to make a whole bunch of money out there if you guys find this guy. Is that part of this? Is it a big part of it? I don't think it's a big part of it. That's more TV stuff. That's TV and we're quite honestly. And we hang on a spin. I am a Phil and host for Dan Abrams on patrol live and sitting next to me is Stix, Sean Stix, Larkin and he was in the Tulsa gang unit for a long time so he was constantly working

50:06sources like that, right? So it's TV, yes, but it's also real. It is. It's more real back in the days. It's weird to say that, but years ago it's far more practical than it is today. Not to say it doesn't happen because I worked a task force when my last assignment was a counter-necotics alliance and I do know that they had their sources. So people still do work them, but it's not as active or as glamorous. That being said, if I knew a bad guy or I talked to bad guys because there are bad guys who like to give up information for perks, yes, I would be working every single person that I knew. Let me ask you, Bob, there's a hell of a perk that's not normal to most cases and that is the million dollar reward that Savannah Guthrie has put up. Does that, I mean, is that almost like mana from heaven for investigators who do work with confidential sources to go out there with that to say, guess what? Yeah. It's not just the police reward we're going to give you. It's that big million dollar lottery ticket you're going to get.

51:09It's huge. When the family put that out, I remember saying that, Dan, like, I think this will be a factor into whenever someone decides to give it up. That's going to be a factor. And again, it might not be right away because that pissed off girlfriend is going to happen eventually. But cops will use it, right? Like cops will be able to actually go underground and use that and dangle that out in front of people. I've got this carrot for you. It's not the typical, what I think it started at $500, $88 crime was offering $500 for information. That's typically where it starts. You're looking at a million plus dollars, someone that's going to ring true to somebody eventually. Yeah, especially if this guy eventually decides to brag. Although this guy probably knows there's a million dollar ticket on his head as well. So maybe he won't have that bravado for a lot longer. What's your theory of what happened to Nancy in that home and then afterward? I think whoever went there, went there with a reason, whatever that reason was.

52:11It's hard to say, but I don't think this was any type of random act. I think there were multiple people involved. I think they went there with the goal to take her and get money out of it. I do just just from the way they were dressed in the gloves and the mask and all of that. That's not a dress like Bob's e-twins. No, I don't think they were dressed like things. I think there was a guy sitting in a car or more than one guy sitting in a car, just like you and I look right now. The guy on camera is the same guy whether he's got the backpack and gun or whether he's not got the backpack and the gun is the same guy. Probably. At least it appears that way. I won't say it is, but it appears the stature and everything looks similar. I think that was their plan and I do think something happened during the course of it, whether it was inside the house, whether it was once they got outside the house or left. I do think whatever happened was probably tragic. I think that changed their plan and so far once that changed, I think that's why it's

53:13been so quiet. Bob, why TMZ? Let's just say that the plan didn't go well. Why would they then make it as big as they could? TMZ and television stations. Why wouldn't they just seek out that communication, get it to the family and say, this is what I have, this is what I want? Because that's a nature of someone who's in their early 20s or younger generations. They know TMZ, they probably know how to get in contact with TMZ and then how to make a phone call. These are the little things and I've heard stories about different ransom notes going to different places. I don't think that's really the, I know there was also someone in Tucson who was arrested for making a false accusation of some sort. They're California. California and brought to Arizona to face federal charges for it. So, and I think that was, especially as it went on with TMZ, my gut is, those probably weren't related. Now, they could have been, again, it's just a gut, but that was put out there because

54:16they also, whoever was feeding TMZ, they wanted to, hey, look, we caused that. It's like these gamers who have these swatting incidents. Why do they do that? Why does anyone do anything like that? They get to sit at home and their lazy boy and chuckle a little bit and say, look, I got them to go off track for an hour or two hours and three or four days. Yeah. Yeah. Do you think that any of the ransom overtures were real? It's hard to say. I've heard things about the early ones that would make me think that, yes, they probably were, were, but then again, there's also the thinking that they, it could have just been just, you know, it's like a psychic. If you say the right things in the right order, you don't need to be a genius to be a psychic. You just know how to play that game. So it's so difficult to say, you know, do I think that, to start it in ransom wasn't a part of it? Yes. Do I think the ransom notes were connected? That's harder to say.

55:17And that maybe it's just a bizarre coincidence that the person or persons who took Nancy planned to try to make money offer realized that something went sideways and they couldn't then bad actors glombed on and took advantage of a situation and low and behold sent ransom requests. Yep. I think that's actually more probable than that exact scenario because that's just unfortunate. It only takes one person, you know, not saying everybody's horrible person. It just takes one person to sit at home and, you know, spoof their IP address and send these. It looks like it's come from the Ukraine or wherever. Do you have, do you have confidence that this will be solved? I do. And again, this is the cop-out answer. It's just a matter of when. It might be years, but it will be solved, you know, some piece of evidence, some piece of information is going to put the investigators on the right track. You know, you know, bomber took years. People have to realize that a lot of times, these just take a long, long time to solve.

56:20God, for the Guthrie's sake, I sure hope that it's going to be shorter rather than longer because it is excruciating not knowing. I could not imagine being in their position. It doesn't matter how famous you are, what you do for a living, and I've dealt with families who go through similar things all the time, and not knowing is probably at this point worse than knowing what happened. Yeah. That's the problem. And you could see it in Savannah's face and her voice and everything she said, just the utter agony, as she said, that they're going through. But thank you so much. I really appreciate you helping me sort of navigate through a lot of the stuff that I've been learning. Every time I learn a new piece of the puzzle, I start over with what I think happened. Yeah. My pleasure. Thank you for having me. Hopefully, the investigators keep following up on every tip and for the Guthrie and their family's sake. Hopefully, this could solve. Like you said, sooner rather than later.