Claudia Kirschhoch

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1:00Hello everyone and welcome, episode 485 of the True Crime All the Time Unsolved Podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson and with me as always is my partner in True Crime, Mike Gibson. Give me how are you? I'm doing good, man. How about you? I'm me too. I'm doing great. I'm really looking forward to diving into this episode for reasons which we'll talk about. But let's go ahead and give our Patreon shout out. We had Claire Bear UK. What's up, Bear UK? Joblin Agterrache. Well thanks, Agterrache. Sarah Kinsey. What's the one on Kinsey? Ann Marie Penderes. Oh, Penderes. Bernadette Pelleteer. What's going on Pelleteer? And last but not least, Texas Mama Bear. The Mama Bear. Yeah. And then if we go back into the ball. This week we selected Chris Pig. Hey, thanks Pig. Yeah, I appreciate the new support, the continued support. We have an episode out right now on True Crime all the time.

2:00What we're talking about, Jane Emery. And this is sometimes labeled by the media as the Lulu Lemon Murder. But it's a fascinating case from motive to execution to cover up all of it. Has to be dissected. But it's out right now. Make sure you check it out. All right, buddy. Are you ready to get into this episode of True Crime all the time, Unsaw? I am ready. We're talking about the disappearance of Claudia Kirschock in May 2000. Claudia disappeared while staying at a beach resort in the grill, Jamaica. Authorities conducted many interviews. They investigated the ledge sightings all over the country. But Claudia remains missing 26 years later. Jamaica. And we're going to be talking about sandals. And I know I talked about it on a number of different episodes, but earlier this year, my family went to sandals.

3:01My oldest daughter got married there at the sandals in the grill. Yeah, close to home. Yeah, it's, you know, in large part, what prompted this episode. And on top of that, I know you're going back this winter. He didn't know something. But sure, because that seems like something I would do. Claudia and Kirschock was born on February 9, 1971. She grew up in Morristown, New Jersey. Claudia earned a degree in journalism from Washington and Lee University in Lexington, Virginia. After graduation, she traveled around Europe with her family. She lived in Paris for a year. Claudia took frequent trips to Italy and the Canary Islands. Her favorite spot on Earth, according to her father, Steve Kirschock. It sounds like she was intelligent and very well traveled. Yeah, you know, at a fairly young age, Gibbs, I think she had been a lot more places

4:02than I've been in my 53 years. I would agree. I have not traveled extensively. Not yet outside of the US. Maybe one day. Maybe one day. Claudia was the type of person who liked to experience local life when traveling. And she enjoyed talking to residents of the places she visited. It's a good way to do it. Yeah, it can be a lot of fun. Claudia's father, Steve, told the Daily News. She's very trusting. You wouldn't say naive. She's just very unprejudiced. Those things could have gotten her in trouble. And I know I've said it before, but I think it's a great way to go through life. Right? You want to be trusting. Certainly you want to be unprejudiced. Yeah. You don't want to judge a book by its cover. But like her father said, is it possible that it times some of those things could get you into trouble?

5:02I think so. And I'm not saying to be prejudiced. I'm just saying to be too trusting. Right? That could get you in trouble to trust the wrong person. Yeah, because there's people out there that will manipulate you, the situation. They're just bad people out there. But there's also people who are looking for that type of individual, right? A trusting person who they believe they can take advantage of. Yeah. Writer, Paulette Cooper, told the Daily News, she was beautiful, right? Sensitive and a bit naive. She believed people were good. Well, like you said, it's not a bad thing. You want people to think people are good out there. Yeah, because 99 point whatever percent of people are good. Yeah. The problem is the 1% are looking to harm you. Take advantage of you. Steal what you have. At the time of her disappearance, Claudia was living in Astoria, Queens.

6:03In 1999, she was hired as an assistant editor at Fromers Travel Guides in New York City. This was a dream job for Claudia. Fromers used to be a pretty big name. I don't know if it's still is or not, but it's not for me. Yeah, I don't know if it is still. I've heard of it. But when you say dream job, she loved to travel. Yeah. She had a degree in journalism. That does sound like a dream job. Hey, we're going to pay you to travel. Yeah. And then you write about it. Not a bad gig. No, not a bad gig if that's something you're into. Now, for me, I would not like that job. No, your dream job would be, Hey, we need you to try out these NBA 2K games. And we're going to pay a lot of money to sit in your basement and play them. And you report back to me on what you think. Yeah. In May 2000, Claudia was chosen to participate in a travel junket

7:04to the new sandals resort and Havana, Cuba. She met with her parents to talk about her upcoming trip on May 22nd, 2000. This was the last time Steve and Marianne Kirschock saw their daughter on May 24th. Claudia and three other travel riders arrived in Montego Bay, Jamaica. She spoke to her parents over the phone that day. Claudia and the other riders were supposed to fly into Havana, but they learned their trip to Cuba was canceled due to problems with travel visas. According to Sandals spokesman Leo Lambert, as quoted by the Daily News, sandals canceled the Cuba trip because it was influenced to buy the politically charged atmosphere surrounding the Leon Gonzalez case. We didn't want to be responsible for any US journalist going into Cuba. You remember that, right? That was a big deal. It was huge. Only Claudia and fellow travel rider,

8:07Tanya Grossinger, took up the company's offer to stay at the sandals resort in the grill, Jamaica. They arrived at the resort on May 25th, 2000. All flights back to New York were booked through June 1st, so they expected to spend several days at the resort. Which is not a bad gig, right? I mean, you said it was pretty nice there. I would love to go back. And I don't say that about all the places I go. It was an amazing time. The beaches are beautiful. It's my first time ever going to a sandals. The staff, they go out of their way to make sure you have anything you want. I really enjoyed. Now, I will say that drive from Montego Bay to Negril is fairly long. Yeah, it was rough on me. I was in the truck. It was, I think it was almost a couple of hours by bus.

9:07Oh, wow. And, you know, they had the hurricane earlier. So last year, there's still a lot of areas that are hit hard. So the drive was a little rough. I'm be honest. Less than desirable. Yeah. Tanya later told unsolved mysteries. They were disappointed at first. She said, when we found out that we weren't going to Cuba, we were really upset. I had assignments. Claudia was there on work. We were also concerned because when they told us we couldn't go, they also told us we couldn't get back to New York. That's a problem. That's where your headquarters out of. Yeah. Unless they say, hey, here's another sandals resort on us, you know, just hang out for a few days. Even though things hadn't gone according to plan, Claudia decided to make the best of her trip. She and Tanya spent time on the beach and ate all their meals together. Tanya told authorities that Claudia became friends with resort bartender, Anthony Grant.

10:10On the night she and Claudia arrived at the resort, Claudia left to go see a reggae concert because she was a fan of the genre. Well, it is very popular there. Oh, absolutely. I mean, there were people walking up and down the beach, playing those, what do you call those drums that they play? Still drums. Yeah. And then of course they want money. And I'm like, that wasn't that good. I could do that. Did you break out some Bob Marley? No, no. Okay. Did they braid your hair? They did not. Yeah. They said there was not enough to work with. I get that. The Daily News also reported that Claudia went to a club with Anthony Grant on the night of May 6, according to Tanya, the next morning, May 27, Claudia and Tanya ate breakfast together. Claudia mentioned that she had a nice time with Grant. And we're talking about these meals. That was one of the best parts of the sandals. Yeah, you really enjoyed those meals, huh?

11:11The food is very, very good. You never have to break out your wallet, which I am a big fan of and I know you are too. Big fan. Now you're paying for it right ahead of time. But it's just nice not to have to pay and tip and just do stuff everywhere you go. Just go eat, sign the, sign the slip and leave. I never even signed any slip. Oh, it's even better. I just ate and left. Yeah. Tanya managed to get a last minute flight out of Jamaica for later that morning. Claudia wanted to remain until June 1st. Her scheduled departure date. She told Tanya she might go to Kingston. Five 150 miles away to visit the Bob Marley Museum and buy local reggae albums, not sold in the US. Well, if you're a big fan of reggae, maybe that's what you want to do. Build your collection up. Yeah, the other thing is, I don't think there's any down Gibbs. She was adventurous, right? She traveled, she loved to travel.

12:13Eventually she got paid to travel and right. Claudia was not the type of person who was afraid to drive 150 miles in another country, just to buy some reggae albums. Yeah, I mean, I think 150 miles there. I feel like you'd be in the car for maybe two and a half, three hours. Yeah, the one thing I noticed, even though I didn't drive, I was in a bus. The lanes appeared to be very small. Okay. Very narrow. Yeah, very narrow. Part of that was probably the bus, but I think we're just so used to here in the US having these big lanes and a lot of lanes. They didn't have those at least the areas I was in. But Claudia disappeared later that afternoon. She was last seen by a resort lifeguard as she walked along the beach. On June 2nd, 2000, Claudia's parents were notified that she hadn't shown up for work in New York as scheduled.

13:13Fred and Mary Ann Kirschock were worried as any parent would, right? You get a call informing you that your son, your daughter, which everyone it may be, didn't show up to work, hasn't shown up to work. And you know their work ethic. They're not that type of person. I think the the worry is going to set in very quickly. It's going to set off some alarms. According to sandals, when Claudia didn't check out on June 1st, her stay was extended. Housekeeping staff noticed that it appeared. Claudia had not slept in her bed for several days. Managers entered the room and saw that all of Claudia's belongings were still there. All of her clothes were packed in her suitcase, her passport, credit cards, cell phone and $180 in cash were recovered from the hotel. Say the only clothing that was unaccounted for was Claudia's swimsuit and t-shirt, which she was wearing on the beach and her radio.

14:17And I think, you know, that tells law enforcement a couple of different things. Number one, you know, if she doesn't take her cell phone, any cash, credit cards, anything like that, well, she probably didn't leave the resort, plan on leaving the resort, because you really don't need some of that stuff on the resort. Yeah. Because you don't need cash. You don't have you don't need a credit card. You don't need money really. What's your cell phone going to really do when you're in another country? You're not going to really probably use it. Yeah, we took ours, but we had a large contingency. So you might need to get ahold of somebody. But if you were there by yourself, which she was at this point in time, maybe you don't need it. And I think the fact that they believe she was wearing a swimsuit and a t-shirt, also kind of makes you think she wasn't planning on leaving the resort and going anywhere. Maybe just running down to the beach,

15:17you could a little walk in, a swim in, just lay on the beach for a little bit, you know, listen to the radio. And you can eat in that kind of a tire. They don't care. Yeah. And even if the nice restaurants, they just don't care. It's a beach setting. So I can go sit down in my banana hammock and... Or your banana? Banana. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know if that's not allowed, but I'm certain it's frowned upon, especially from you. Heh. Claudius' mother, Mary Ann, told Unsolved Mysteries, Claudius is a really organized, orderly person. If she was planning to go off somewhere, she would have made a phone call. She would have let us know. We felt very early on. There's something happened to her and that's something just was not right. Claudius' parents made plans to get to Jamaica. As quickly as they could, they flew to Jamaica on June 7 with Mike Spring. The publisher of Framers. Once they arrived at the resort,

16:19they faced one dead end after another. The room Claudia was staying in, had been cleaned. Her belongings were reportedly taken to the Resort Managers Office. Her cell phone, which was originally inventory by police, was missing when her parents arrived to get her things. That's problematic. Yeah. Again, when you're in another country, I mean, you don't know what the procedures of police are. Heck, here in the US, not every agency does things the right way. It's true. They also make mistakes. Let's not forget about that. They do. The Resort developed the film in Claudius' camera after her disappearance, but they reported there were no photos on it. Why would they resort? Do that. Instead of giving it to the police and allowing them to do it. Yeah, it's very strange. Also, she is a travel writer, Yeah. Who I assume would take a fair number of pictures.

17:21And know how to take the pictures. As a security precaution, the Resort took down all license plates of vehicles, entering and leaving, but the logbook for the month Claudia went missing was gone. The video from the surveillance camera, mounted near Claudius' room, had been inadvertently recorded over. These all red flags, right? Well, they're red flags, but who are they pointing at? The Resort. Yeah, the Resort. Or someone at the Resort. I mean, to have these security precautions in place, that's great. As long as you hold onto the logbook for that month, as long as you don't record over the video, that's a problem. Well, I always think, okay, if you have one thing, you say, well, you chalk it up to somebody made an error, Right? Or something happened, but we've got four or five different things here

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19:24Head to talkkiatry.com, slash unsolved, to complete the short assessment and get matched with an in-network psychiatrist in just a few minutes. That's T-A-L-K-I-A-T-R-Y.com slash unsolved, to get matched in minutes. Talkkiatry.com slash unsolved. Everyone listening to this podcast has that one person in their life who they just have the most trouble finding a gift for. For me, that's my wife. She's hard to buy for, but that's where Zazzle comes in. Zazzle is a custom marketplace where you can take basically any product, a mug, a tote bag, a card, a phone case, and make it really mean something. You're not buying a gift, you're making one. Browse millions of designs or start from scratch and build something completely your own. Either way, you're the designer. Everything is made on demand, so there's no out of stock. You just pick it, customize it, and you're done. Over 30 million customers have trusted Zazzle with their most important gifts, yours is next.

20:26I made my wife a mug with a picture of our two multi stogs on. She loves it. She drinks her tea out of it. Right now, save 25% on your first order at Zazzle.com. That's 25% savings on your first order at Zazzle.com. Go make something amazing. Zazzle.com. But authorities had no evidence of foul play. So they began investigating the possibility that Claudia drowned in the ocean. Detective Denver Frater from the Jamaica and Stabulary Force told unsolved mysteries. It's not impossible, but I would say it's highly unlikely that area is not deep and the current is not very strong. And if something should go wrong with someone there, the body would be found easily, which it would never was. So sounds like that's probably not an option. Well, this guy saying he doesn't think. Yeah, that that's the most likely thing that happened. Word of Claudia's disappearance spread

21:29throughout the entire country. And many residents in the grill believe Claudia chose to start a new life with someone she met in Jamaica. Okay, this is say she did. She said, oh, man, I love it here. It's beautiful. Not really like this guy, Matt. So I think I'm just going to start my life here and it's going to be great. She could do that, but she's not going to abandon her life back in the hospital. I mean, she's going to call her parents. Why wouldn't she? And why would she leave all of her important stuff in the hotel safe? Exactly. She doesn't need to do that either. Yeah, I don't normally buy that. You know that. And I don't buy it here either. You know, here's a person as we described doing her dream job. She loved her family. As far as we know, they weren't having any issues. Now, could she have fallen in love with, let's say, the bartender? She could have. Absolutely.

22:29They had a good time. She told Tony that. She might have even said, yeah, I'd like to stay down here and see where this thing goes. But she would have called her parents. If she's not going to let them sit there and worry that something bad happened to her. Well, she doesn't need to go into witness protection. No, because she's not running from anything. And that's why I normally don't buy that theory. In most cases, it just doesn't make a lot of sense. And I don't think it makes any sense here. Sightings were reported in different villages as well as alleged sightings of Claudia with the Jamaican man. But police were never able to confirm any of these reports. And who knows, right? What those sightings could have been. There are a lot of tourists, right? Who traveled to Jamaica? Sure. Either by plane. There's a lot of cruise lines that stop. Oh, yeah, in Jamaica. The Kirschhocks did not believe Claudia would run away.

23:31According to Fred, we know she wouldn't do that. She had no reason to escape. As had been said, she loved her life. Her family, her friends, her new apartment. Everything was going right for her. So there was nothing to escape. And that's kind of what I thought as well. In mid June, superintendent Ioni Ramsey Nelson, the tourism liaison officer for the Jamaican police told the media is quoted by the star ledger. We have saturated the entire area with her photograph. She noted that many community groups assisted in the effort to spread word about Claudia's disappearance. So it sounds like they're trying to make all the right efforts to locate her, right? Getting her face out there, basically saturating the whole area. Yeah, but you also have community groups, people coming forward to assist. And we talk about that all the time.

24:32That's not a US thing. That's a worldwide thing. Right. People by and large are good. They want to be helpful. They feel bad that someone is missing. Claudia's parents returned to New Jersey after doubling the reward for information to $500,000 Jamaican dollars, which is equivalent to almost $12,000 US dollars. Good amount. Yeah, it's a sizable amount. Yeah. And for some people in Jamaica, it's probably a lot. Yeah, 500, 500,000 people live. You know, one of the things that the bus driver told me, it stuck with me, he said they don't have any kind of government assistance in Jamaica. So everybody has to work. And it's why you see so many people kind of doing their own thing, right? Whether it's selling conchelles or doing the drums or whatever it is.

25:38Some people were making food on the side of the road. Yeah, whatever they got to do to make some money. Yeah. Fred Kirschock said, any news conference in Jamaica with all the prayers, with all the police resources to help up the tourism ministry and the posters. There's not really one substantive clue today, which is very disturbing to us naturally, but we'll never give up hope. We don't intend to give up hope. That's not the type of people we are. And I think that's true for most people. You're never going to give up hope of finding your daughter in this case until it's proven that she's dead. Most parents just will never give up. You know, he talks about they didn't have any really good clues. And I feel like they might have had good clues if obviously the camera didn't get the video didn't get covered up

26:39recorded over. And if the resort didn't process the film and allow that for police to do or somehow lose the logbooks of the license plate. Yeah, it's hard to have clues when all the possible evidence is missing. Right. This is a strange case. I think a lot of people latch on to that part of it. Fred also said, we hear occasionally that Claudia is out having a good time or working a story. That's absolutely impossible at this day. It's totally out of character for her not to have contact with her family, not to have contact with her friends or her colleagues at work. So there's something wrong. We have no idea, but we think maybe she's unable to leave where she is. Maybe she's injured. We're fearful about that. Yeah, I mean, maybe the first week she's working on a story hasn't had a chance to call home,

27:40but it's not like she's covering some wartime thing or some undercover thing, right? She's a travel leisure reporter. She can break away at any moment and make a phone call to home and say, hey, mom, dad or her friends. This is what I'm doing. I'm going to maybe not be reachable for a little bit. Well, when she's also not talking to her employer, then it makes it hard to think that she's doing any type of work. Exactly. Nearly a month after Claudia's disappearance, police still had no idea what happened to her. Her parents traveled to the island for the second time in late June to continue searching. Jamaican authorities had been searching the coast with the help of the FBI. By this time the reward was increased to one million. Jamaican dollars about 25,000 US dollars. The substantial reward was generating hundreds of tips. Just no solid leads after Claudia's disappearance sandals

28:45fired the manager who was working at the resort. He went on vacation in the middle of the investigation per the daily news. According to sandals spokesman Leo Lambert, the manager was in no way culpable in Claudia's disappearance, but his termination was an administrative decision based on what the company perceived to be his absence in a critical point. Well, it wasn't bad decision on his part to take a vacation at that time, but was there more reasoning behind that vacation time that he took? Yeah, I mean, I have no idea. But also as a corporation, you could look at all of the things that we talked about, right? Cameras not working logbook lost. You know, where does the buck stop? Yeah. And normally it's with the top manager. That's true. The manager was ruled out as a suspect. Please had also ruled out the bartender Claudia went out with

29:46for a June 25th news report. By the end of July, the Kirschhocks had been to Jamaica three times. They dedicated their lives to searching for Claudia, walking the beaches and streets with photos of her and hopes of finding leads. They spoke to reporters often to generate publicity. And we hear about that a lot, right? It's extremely important and unsolved cases to stay out in front of the media. Because let's face it, there are so many new stories happening all the time. Right. Very easy for a story to get put on the back burner. Yeah. People forget. And last you as the family, you know, you keep pounding, you keep pounding, you want something to be put out there just so people don't forget. Yeah, you want to try to keep it relevant. The family was working on getting permission from the Jamaican government

30:48to allow especially trained search dog into the country. They requested a waiver from regulations requiring dogs to be quarantined for up to six months after arrival. You know the other thing I learned while I was in Jamaica? Was that you should never ever wear camouflage? Because I think it might be illegal. Why is that? Because they might think you're in the military or something. Oh, something happened or I have no idea. I don't know the somebody just told me that. Yeah. Not that I took camouflage or own camouflage. I don't. But somebody said that I came here if it was against the law or you just not allowed to do it or you shouldn't do it. I can't frown upon. It was more than that. Really? Yeah. Like you could get in trouble for it. That's something they probably ought to let people know. How they probably do if you looked it up. I don't know. Oh, that's true. But I am not a big camouflage person. So I wasn't, you know, too worried about it.

31:49Yeah, well, you know, what if you had like a camouflage swimsuit? Because I didn't want anybody to see what I had. Yeah, that's it. But these are two big things, right? Ruling out the manager, especially ruling out the bartender. The two went out. So he had to be a person of interest to the very least. I mean, one point some people thought maybe she fell in love and wanted to start a life there. Right. But this bartender who went on the date with Claudia the night before her disappearance, we said it, right? His name was Anthony Grant, but investigators didn't identify him until late July that month and FBI agent and polygraph expert flew to Jamaica to conduct interviews. Investigators questioned Grant after he told his superiors. He took Claudia on a date despite initial claims he had not gone out with her. Maybe he lied because he didn't want to get fired from his job

32:50for going out with a guest. Maybe you're not allowed to go out with guests. Yeah, they probably have rules about that. I don't know for sure. Resort spokesman Leo Lambert said per the star ledger, a bartender at beaches in the group admitted to the management of the resort on Saturday, July 29th, that he dated missing American travel writer Claudia Kirschah off property on the night of Friday, May 26th, 2000. He's denied any subsequent contact with her or knowledge of her whereabouts. This information has been reported to the police. I am a salty plus sweet person. I always have been. I love that combination. And that's why I love Kachava's new salted corn flavor. It's the perfect balance of mouthwatering flavor and benefits. You get all the nutrition your body craves and one deliciously simple shape. Just two scoops provides complete nutrition your body craves with protein, fiber, greens and so much more.

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34:53casualty insurance company and affiliates potential savings will vary not available in all states. And this identification of the bartender, Anthony Grant was an important development. According to the star ledger, Grant fell at a lie detector test earlier that week. And he changed his story, admitting he and Claudia went to a bar. And then he accompanied her to the hotel. Now unsolved mysteries reports the results were inconclusive, which is about as bad as filling. Yeah, it can be in certain people's eyes. Now the Charlie project reports that authorities learned Grant called in sick on May 28th the day after Claudia was last seen. And he remained out of work for four days. I mean, these aren't good things. When you look at this case, does it, it could be nothing, but it can mean a lot.

35:53Yeah, true words have never been said. But I talked about it, right? It's a big deal to clear this guy. But now you're kind of questioning, right? Did they clear him too soon? Should they have cleared him? He was ultimately fired for going out with a guest. If he changed his story, if he failed a lie detector test, if he called in sick the day after she is last known to have been seen and then didn't go to work for four days. Okay, those are not bomb shells. They're just red flags, but they don't make him look good. Jamaican authorities eventually granted permission for a search dog from the US to be brought to the island. In August 2000, the search dog picked up Claudia sent in Anthony Grant's home, according to unsolved mysteries, the dog hit on a pair of boots, a pair of gloves and a knife. Now this is interesting to me because think about how long it has been.

36:57It took a while to get the dog there. Well, it's also how strong their their noses are. Yeah, that to me, that's amazing. Yeah, but all this time passes, they can still pick up on the set. But what does it mean? I think you have to kind of look at these items specifically. Yeah, pair of boots, a pair of gloves and a knife. What would you need boots, gloves and a knife for? Well, if you're going down the rabbit hole that Anthony Grant could potentially have had something to do with this, obviously a knife could be used to kill somebody. Right. And boots and gloves could be used to bury somebody. Yeah. We don't know that's what happened, but now it could have been that he was wearing the boots when they went out. But what about the knife, what about the gloves that you know, it's not a good sign.

37:58No, and it's not going to get it better for him. No, it's not. And we know and these dogs are very precise, scary how precise they are. Now could he have touched Claudia and then touch these things? Is that possible? I don't know. Could there have been a transfer of the scent? Maybe or are we specifically talking about the scent of death? Because those are two very different things. That's true. And the reporting wasn't real clear, right? And what type of search dog this was inside his car, the dog detected Claudia scent in the backseat and in the trunk. Now it could. No, you could make an argument for the backseat. Sure you can. You know, a lot of people you have mentioned many times that you have gotten freaky in your backseat. You know, sometimes my wife just go out in the driveway.

39:01Yeah. Sometimes with or sometimes without her. I don't understand that one, but whatever. But yeah, but the trunk. Now you can't make a case for the trunk, right? How do you explain that? How does her scent get in the trunk? Yeah. Now in the old days, we used to think people into the drive-in. Sure. In the trunk. But most places haven't had drive-ins for many, many years. And I'm assuming they didn't go to a drive-in. But when you start adding all this up, right? The boots, the gloves, the knife, the backseat in the trunk. I mean, things are going off. Well, to me, it's just, it's more than just a little bit of smoke. Yeah. Right? It's not a full blown bonfire, but it's not a little puff of smoke, either. This is quite a bit. Yeah. And you had to the fact that he called off the next day. It was out for four days total. There's other things that add up. The FBI collected the lining of the trunk, the boots, the knife,

40:02and other items belonging to Grant. It's a task for blood. The FBI also found a strand of claudiose hair in the backseat of the vehicle. Now, I think that could be more easily explained, something along the lines of what you were talking about earlier. But if they find blood, right? Her bloods specifically on the knife, on the boots, in the trunk, that's going to be pretty tough to explain. Yeah, it's a whole other story there. Detective Denver Frater told Unsolved Mysteries that Grant was not a suspect. He said, we interviewed him for several weeks. We just don't find enough evidence to, in any way, believe that Grant is involved in her disappearance, other than that he was associated with her. And I get it. We may not know everything that went on behind the scenes, but knowing what we have talked about,

41:02it's kind of hard to understand that statement. Now, if it came back, right, that there was no blood found, you still got to explain the dog. Could the dog be wrong? Yeah, I guess. There has to be some rate of error. Yeah. I think it's pretty low, though. I would think so. They're fairly accurate. And the dog is not just hitting on one thing in one place, hitting on different items, some inside the house, some in the car. As 2000 came to a close, Claudia's parents expressed their frustration with the investigation. The Jamaican police had not received a call from tipsters in two months. And unfortunately, that's what happens in these unsolved cases, right? The older they get, the less and less tips are going to come in. It's like the interest fades away. Well, and people who thought they knew something about it,

42:02they would call in pretty early, probably. So just by that logic, it's going to die down. Fred Kirschock questioned how much interest the police force had and finding out what happened to Claudia. He told the star ledger what seems to happen is they don't follow through enough. In our opinion, on leads they get. Now, it's not unusual, right? For the family of a missing person to, you know, sometimes we're at a certain point in an investigation to start feeling as though the police haven't done enough. I think we're seeing that here. They also may have not been happy that, you know, this bartender was ruled out. We talked about, you know, some other things that the police kind of mishandled or couldn't find. Yeah, evidence. I think if I was her parents and I heard about this guy that the dog hit on all these things, including the car and that

43:05he called off work the next day and days after and knowing that maybe, but for sure, what I'm thinking, did he have access to getting his hands on this logbook? Did he have the access to recording over this video? And why aren't the police doubling down on this guy? Yeah, that's an interesting point. We haven't made yet, right? He did work at the resort. So even if he didn't have access, was he friends with somebody who did? Yeah. Right? Those are all questions that you would hope the police asked things that they looked into. And on top of all that is a light detector test wasn't perfect. So the family's not happy. And as a result, they continued doing their own investigation. They set up a toll free hotline and in September, created a website. There were also questions about the forensic testing of evidence,

44:08detective, sergeant or Rell Simpson, set of the forensic testing. I'm hearing it turned up nothing. A spokesperson woman with the FBI in Miami was unable to provide the status of the lab work. In March 2001, the star ledger reported that according to Fred, the FBI lab tests on the evidence collected from Anthony Grant's car were inconclusive. Fred said he was told testing on the hair found in Grant's car was on goal. And I think again, for the family, it's just not what you want to hear. Inconclusive tells you what not much. No, it doesn't. It doesn't include Anthony Grant, but it also doesn't exclude him. It really just doesn't do much of anything. No, just frustrate you. Jamaican detective inspector Kingsley Wilby said there was nothing incriminating out of the task the FBI conducted.

45:08We have no useful information, which would put us in a better position. According to the Charlie project, a small amount of blood was found on the blade of a knife inside Grant's home, but it was too small to merit additional analysis. Too small because they couldn't be they couldn't test it. Or too small that they just felt like yeah, it's not worth going any further with it. I'm assuming too small to test in February 2002, Claudia's parents traveled to Jamaica to meet with the US Embassy and local law enforcement to determine the status of the investigation. They wanted to ask for records and hire their own private investigate if the Jamaican authorities were at a dead end. By this time, the police had received thousands of tips from people who claim to have seen Claudia, one anonymous letter said that Claudia was at a party the night before she was missing and was drunk.

46:10The Kirschock said they believed that that is what happened to their daughter. And that's a real danger. It is a danger. You know, whether it is as part of, you know, some sex trafficking operation, which we know those exist all over the world or whether it's because one individual, you know, wanted to do something very, very bad to this woman. Remember, she was sort of naive. Probably, you know, she could have just went out thought she was having a good time. Someone brings her a drink as some type of drug in it. And which I don't even think you have to be all that naive for that to happen to you. Yeah. You know, if you're at a club, now we don't experience this. But if you're a woman at a club, you probably get bought drinks quite a bit. Now, do you turn those drinks down?

47:11Probably most people don't. It's a free drink. Yeah. Probably just depends. But I think you're right. Majority time probably just say, hey, it's a free drink. Thank you. Upon their return to the US, Claudia's parents reported that they were largely satisfied with the investigation. According to Fred, they still have a number of leads that they're following up on. So the investigation is not complete. They have not eliminated anybody that was involved from the very beginning. Claudia Kirschock was declared legally dead on May 20, 2002. Superior court judge, Reginald Stan, determined Claudia died on May 27, 2000. And concluded she did not voluntarily disappear. Some kind of foul play occur. Well, that we all can agree on. Yeah, I just never really buy the voluntary disappearance in this one at all.

48:11The family received a letter from the Jamaican Ministry of Security, allowing the FBI to release its records. But they still needed Claudia's death certificate. The death certificate would also allow them to file a lawsuit against Sandals Resorts, whose employees allegedly stymied the investigation according to the family. Fred said during the hearing, we want to know what happened. We just have to know what happened. And I get that. You see that a lot in unsolved cases, whether it's, you know, the family thinks a certain person was involved. Police don't have enough to charge them. The family might, you know, go after them in civil court. Here, it sounds like they were trying to go after Sandals. I don't know what the result of that suit was if it was filed. I never saw it. But I will say, you go back to all of those things that we talked about,

49:11the camera, the logbook. There was just a lot of stuff, including the development of that film. I'm still shocked by that one. Yeah, like why? Who's playing amateur detective at the resort? I mean, it comes across more that you were worried that something could have been on there that could have caused damage to the resort. Yeah, to be honest with you, that makes more sense, right? As to why someone would do that. Yeah. Me as a resort employee would not take it upon myself to develop this film. No. In the wake of someone's disappearance, I'm like, here, police, this is everything we found. You do what you're supposed to do. Exactly. But as of 2026, no one has ever been charged in the disappearance of Claudia Kershak. And you know, it's a, it's a sad but fascinating case. There's no doubt.

50:11There seem to have been a lot of missteps early on, even prior to her going missing. Now, whether that was just incompetence, bad luck, whatever you want to call it, that's one thing. But there's so much of it that it almost makes it seem like there was some orchestration to it. I don't know that for a fact, but I think a lot of people might look at it and say, ah, that's just too much. I think so. For this not to be some type of orchestrated effort. And I want to go back to the bartender. Yeah, I don't want to throw that guy into the bus. No. But it seemed strange to me that there was a lot of smoke around him. But police came out and said, we know he didn't have anything to do with it. The problem is I didn't see anything, I didn't hear anything, read anything that showed me what they were basing that from.

51:13Right. Knowing that the dog hit on so many things of his. Yeah. The other thing that popped into my mind is, you know, 2000 DNA technology in the year 2000 versus what they might be able to do. With let's say the small amount of blood on that knife today. If they kept it right. See, we don't know that. They might have even used that very little bit up and trying to get a sample. Although there wasn't anything in the research about it. Yeah, I don't know. This one is going to nag at me because I feel like Claudia definitely met with foul play. But it's all of the other things surrounding the case that make me question whether there's just more here than. Let's say a lone person who took advantage of a vulnerable woman. Let you know whether she was drunk or he drugged her or something like that.

52:15Yeah. It's almost like there's something bigger going on bigger picture. Yeah, I just don't know what it is. But that's it for our episode on Claudia Kirschock. We got a voice mail. You want to check that out? It's here. I just stumbled across you guys on YouTube and I've been listening a lot of your episodes. I find them extremely interesting. I'm from Vermont and I don't know if you've ever heard of the case of Brianna, Maklin. That might be something that would interest you guys. It still insults. He's been missing for 20 years just vanished. It's an interesting story. I think 20 year anniversary just went by this past year of the year before. You may want to check it out. Keep up the good work. Hey, thanks so much for the voice mail. Awesome that you found us on YouTube. That is cool. Yeah. I mean, we're out there now. We don't get a ton of traffic. Obviously, still most of our listens come from the podcast side of things.

53:15But that Brianna, Maklin, case is familiar. And I thought maybe you and I had done it. Yeah. But I looked and I didn't find it. So maybe Morphin, I did it on criminology. Probably. So, but I think it would be a very interesting one for you and I. Absolutely. So, appreciate the voice mail very much. Yes, we do. All right, buddy, that is it for another episode of True Crime All the Time Unsolved. So, for Mike and Gibby, stay safe and keep your own time ticking. Thank you.