Daisy Edgar-Jones & Esmé Creed-Miles: Big Sister Advice

0:00A List-N-A-Production. So this episode is really exciting, because I'm joined today by actresses, Daisy Etica Jones and Esme Creed Miles. Daisy, of course, you would know from Normal People, which is one of my favorite TV shows ever. I think it changed my brain chemistry. I like to go back and rewatch it when I feel like torturing myself. But it's the show that introduced Daisy and Paul Mesco to the world, these extraordinary breakout stars. And Daisy has since starred in Where the Quardad is Seeing in Fresh in Twisters on Swift Horses. And then we have Esme, who is just such a raw talent. She is incredible. She was the star of Hannah as well. Which if you haven't seen, please go watch. It is just so good. And acting also, side note, really runs in her family, because Esme's mom is the incredible Samantha Morton, who we were actually praising on the podcast just a few weeks ago, because she was responsible for that incredible wild sequence of clay making in the Odyssey as Cersei.

1:02But now Daisy and Esme are playing sisters, Eleanor and Marianne Dashwood in the new adaptation of Jane Austen's Sense and Sensibility. It is one of my favorite books ever. I was lucky enough to see this new movie adaptation just this week. And it is so good. I just absolutely adored it. And I am a huge Jane Austen fan. I think one of the most incredible things about her writing is that it proves just how little human beings seem to have changed. Like Sense and Sensibility was published more than 200 years ago. But we are still just sisters trying to decipher mixed signals and deal with ghosting and love bombing and all of these things falling too hard. It's still so relevant. It feels so modern. But what I was really taken with by this film and in this book is the relationship between the sisters. Eleanor played by Daisy is the sense. She's the eldest daughter. She's responsible. She's composed. She's managing everybody else around her. And the Marianne, who's played by Esme, is Sense-ability. She's technically the middle child, but she's the younger sister. And she's passionate. She's romantic.

2:03She feels everything out loud. I didn't have a sister, but I've always wanted a big sister. And I love the idea of having someone who has gone through life just a little bit ahead of you and has made some mistakes already and can look at your life and point out things to you that maybe you haven't been able to see yet. And really, that became the theme for today's episode. So we talk about Siddling Order Theory, which if you listen to the podcast, you would know is something I bring up a lot. I'm fascinated by different psychological theories, but this one really stands out to me. And we kind of explore whether Daisy and Esme fit the stereotypes within their own families. And also talk about the internet phenomenon of eldest daughter and dating according to Siddling Order Theory and then how it applies to their characters as well. And then we also kind of put these sister credentials to the test. We asked you guys to send in different dilemmas, life dilemmas, dating dilemmas. And I gave them two different scenarios that are pretty common in the dating world and asked them for their two cents through the lens

3:04of their characters. But they also offer it up for themselves as well. I won't stall any longer. Here is Daisy Edgar Jones and Esme Creed Miles on Sense and Sensibility and Sisterly Advice. Thank you so much for coming on this show. And congratulations for the film. I loved it so, so, so much. It was just such a beautiful watch. And it made me feel like my favorite comfort watch is Little Woman. And it gave me that all the best of Austin and that comfort of the sisterly Little Woman vibe. And I was like, oh, it's just the perfect blend. So thanks. Oh, I love it. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much. Oh, thank you. And actually, it had me thinking a lot about sibling dynamics. I obviously the sister is the big part of the film. And I don't have a sister. I have two brothers. But it made me think a lot about sibling dynamics. Have you guys heard of sibling auditory? No. Oh, my God. Oh, auditory. Oh, auditory.

4:05I kind of kind of, right? Like, it was kind of big. It was big online for a while. But I love lots of like different psychology rabbit holes to go down. And sibling auditory is one of them. It was something that was created by Alfred Adler. It was made over a century ago. But pretty much he's saying like where you're born in the family line, like dictates your personality pretty much. What did Adler also do the courage? Like he influenced the courage to be disliked? Yes. You know, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No. So I mean, sibling auditory has like a pinch of salt with it. But I thought, the whole time I was watching it, I was like, well, these two characters are the perfect case study for this. Like they are such younger sister elders to survive. Totally. I mean, I'm an only child. So I'm kind of the oldest middle and young. I can be, I can like fill in any slot. I do think that like only children do tend to occupy a similar position that older children do in that they kind of, yeah, I suppose they, I definitely identify a lot with like the elder child sort of stereotype, I would say. But yeah, it's definitely something, I mean, it felt so apparent in the dynamics of the

5:09sisters just within the script and the story. So definitely something we thought about. Yeah. I love guessing people's when I meet them. Like it's kind of like, it's like a horoscope to me, guessing like all that. They give middle child energy, they give older child energy. I can start guessing at it. And I also love when I was watching it, realizing that sense and sensibility was inspired by partly because of Jane Austen's own relationship with Cassandra, I believe her big sister. And that Jane herself was a younger sister. And I think you can always feel that in the writing. And then like she's, I mean, she was only 19 when she wrote it, but like she is in herself such that like sibling dynamic playing out in her own life. And I just, I loved that. But if I go back to her, used to saying that you were an only child as well. Like when I was looking at the different personality tropes of the different siblings and eldest is like, you're more organized and like you manage people and then middle child is, I don't know, I get all the bad stereotypes of the middle child. And then youngest is more like expressive and free. Do you feel like the only child being like, it's like you're good around adults and like?

6:13Yes. 100% you have to grow up quite quickly because you are sat at the adult table. You're not, you know, and also, I mean, classically, only children are pretty bad at negotiation because you've never had to practice or I've never had anyone in my life when I was growing up that I could argue with and potentially be right because ultimately when you're a kid, the parent is always ultimately like, well, I'm the parent. So yeah, I'm right. So it definitely, yeah, I think also Eleanor is such a parent, she's quite a parentified child where she's kind of had to fill in that role of being the steady head. And yeah, I think that can be that can exist within only children as well quite a lot. So I think that's a big thing at the moment, everyone, like identifying with the eldest daughter, preantification as well. Like I feel like that's the extension of the sibling order theory. But as well, you have siblings, right? So where do you fall in the family constellation? I'm the eldest. You're the eldest. I'm the eldest by quite a long shot. My siblings are half sibling and they're a lot younger than me. So I feel more like, I mean, no, my sister, now my sister's 18, so we're like, she's taking

7:16all my clothes and we're like, it's really cute. But there was a period where our age gap was like quite disparate, you know, when I was like 18 and she was like 10, you know, and there wasn't much for us to like talk about. Yeah, but you know, other than like her maybe pulling my hair or something. Um, as she's my best friend now, I mean, she's really the best. But, um, I think it depends on the families too. And like, I don't know that I fool in any tropes. No, they're all like caveats to it. And one of it is age gaps that like makes such a difference. Yeah. But yeah, I was wondering when I was watching it as well, like, do you think Marianne and Eleanor are sense and sensibility because that's who they naturally are? Or do you think that like they are shaped by this kind of theory? I would say I learn a lot in therapy law about about kind of there are, I think roles that people play in families that I think you are like a scapegoat or a victim or the perpetrator. And there are all of these roles that I think depending on your upbringing, you kind of

8:19can fall into. And I've noticed also in my, my own life that sometimes, you know, being more of a Marianne, you can take up a lot of space. And then I think if a, if a first child takes up a lot of space with the things that they have going on, the middle child sometimes is made to feel a little smaller. So in that respect, I felt like sense was almost unique and kind of against the grain because Marianne is a middle child, but she's not like a quintessential middle child, you know, like middle children, I think sometimes the stereotype is that they kind of like have to be a little smaller because the, oh, this all the youngest, especially takes all of the adoration, all the attention from the parents. And so I felt like Marianne kind of is outside of the box in that respect, but she feels to me almost like a youngest sibling. Yeah. And I think her and Margaret are kind of on a very similar wavelength with each other. And I really love that in the movie. Like they feel almost at points closer in age than Eleanor and Marianne and they're both

9:24Margaret and Marianne are quite like Miss Dashwood. And we sometimes spoke about how maybe Eleanor's more like the dad who we haven't met before and that was quite sweet. No, I love that and actually also shard out to Margaret. She's so cute. She's so cute. She's so cute. She's so cute. She's so cute. I love that answer. And did you feel the same for Eleanor? Yeah, well, I think the there is something interesting about a long-term relationship, how difficult it can be sometimes to break out of the mold that you've kind of been placed in or you've occupied for a long time. So it's even the same with long-term friendships or relationships because we're constantly shifting and growing, sometimes in family dynamics in particular, when you've occupied that role, it can be really threatening to shift from it or to grow and evolve. And I think it's quite wonderful that this film really celebrates that the sisters, they allow that evolution and actually they have these almost sort of crossing arcs that is really interesting where even though Eleanor is somebody who has occupied that space of

10:25sense and has been the grown-up really in the family and taken a lot of the pressures on that their father would have had, you know, she's the one who's kind of trying to figure out where they're going to live, what they're going to do, having lost their fortune, keeping Margaret educated, holding all the motion that Marianne's going through with her heart break and putting herself aside quite a lot for it. But actually, it's Marianne that says, speak to me, talk to me, let that side free and actually by the end it feels like she embraces that, her truth, which is somebody who is full of sensibility and passion and emotion, she's just kept it hidden and then Marianne has the kind of alternate arc where by the end she hasn't lost that part of herself that makes her special but she's almost become a little more worldly and grounded within it. So yeah, but it is family dynamics are fascinating to me. And you know what's funny when you were saying that, even with the middle child being able to sort of go either way and talking about long-term relationships, this psychology, I'm now, I'm going so afraid now, but like it goes even further about sibling, like how they

11:25date and how you choose today. You choose today. And like they did this study out of Sweden and it showed that like eldest's rarely date other eldest because it's like you step on each other's toes too much. But youngest and eldest tend to be a bit of a match. You choose your kind of use to that dynamic, but middle child go either way because you're kind of comfortable in both dynamics. It's so funny. On the dating space as well because I think so much of the sisters giving each other this like sisterly advice on dating. And we actually put it out to our audience. We were like, what is this sort of dilemma that you like co up against quite a few times? And we have two scenarios here. And I thought it would kind of be fun if I give you guys these scenarios and you can give me the two cents on what you think should be approached as with sense or sensibility like through your characters. And yeah, see what we come up with together with a good advice for this. Okay, the first one is I would love to know what your characters would do when it comes to unsolicited dating advice.

12:27So like if Eleanor and Mary Ann's best friend was dating just like the worst guy ever, absolute flop, would they be the type to think she's got to like learn this? She's got to like live and let learn. It's got to run its course. Or are they like, I'm going to say something. Mm hmm. I feel like Eleanor definitely does want to say something quite a lot at the time. Like there's a few times where she's like, you know, she tries to give Mary Ann advice about Willoughby and Mary Ann's pretty unforgiving about it. Yeah, I feel like she would want to just protect that person so much that she'd probably not be able to help herself a little, even if actually it is important sometimes for somebody to figure themselves out and you know, go through that life experience. So yeah. Do you think would Mary Ann sensibility I think Mary Ann is like she's playing with her ribbons and her friend is telling her about her breakup and then she's like, what? Like what did you say? It might take her a minute to even, you know what I mean?

13:29Yeah. Yeah. And that's almost nice sometimes. Like that's what you want. I personally like have never been able to not give my two sons on someone else's like, it's so hard. It's so hard. And I, because what if they get married and stay together forever and ever and you've been really like, I hate you. But I think it's in the delivery. Like, yeah, how you say it? So I think it's like it is sense in the sense that like, I'm going to say this really lightly, but also if you say it before they're ready to hear it. Yeah. It's risky, risky. It's risky. I think I'm pretty good generally with my friends being supportive until they don't like the person. And then I'm like, all of my feelings about them come out. I'm like, well, I know this guy is suck. And then they get back together. But also, I think it's, I'm a phone believer in that people have to learn lessons for themselves. And like when you love someone, there's, there's nothing. You know, if you love someone, you love someone. No one's going to say anything. You have to figure out for yourself.

14:29And I think actually it's really isolating when you're stuck in a cycle and your friends are like, well, I told you so. And then they kind of leave you to do it. And I think like, no, you need to support the choices that I'm just watching selling sunset. Mm-hmm. Always good for some life advice. Yeah. No, I'm why I'm... Austin equivalent. I was going. Where is this going? I love Crichelle's my favourite. But I will say on the last season, she, have you seen the last season? No, I haven't. But you can ruin it. Emma's her best friend. She's really judgy about Emma's boyfriend. Mm-hmm. And I'm like, you can't do that. No. You just got on the shot yourself. You have to figure them out. You just don't know what's going on. You don't know? You don't know what's going on between a relationship. But so between those two people you might... I think it's hard when you feel like someone is getting hurt or being treated really badly. That is different. You'll be there for them. You'll be there for them. You'll be there for them. You'll be there for them. You'll be there for them. Don't judge them. You'll be there for them. Don't judge them. Exactly, don't judge them. Because then you'll feel isolated and alone. You'll be there for them. I agree. They won't reach out to you when they finally do get really hurt, because they'll feel that

15:30you're going to judge them. Totally. It's more dangerous and now they're not speaking to anyone. You won. Yeah. Then the next one is a bit of a classic situation. So your ex suddenly comes back. You haven't heard from them for like three months. They want to talk. Do you think that Eleanor and Marianne would be like, okay, I'm going to hear them out? Or would they be like, once you've lost me, you lost me for good. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Ooh, what do you think? I think Marianne already has a new... New person. New person. Three months too long. Like, if she cries for a week, she's really sad, and then she's literally gone all about it. She's gone new. She's got somebody else. I think she's like, who the fuck's texting me right now? She's like so over it. The number is gone. I mean, she does. She's over it. She's like, oh, Brandon. You. Like, okay. I can't. So, Tree was over like, Eleanor will wallow and wallow and wallow. And like, she would go back,

16:32and then she'd be like, no, and then she'd go back. And then she'd be like, no. I know. Yeah, it depends on the situation and why they broke up. You know, like, it all depends on the context, I think. But I could see her being like, okay, I'll have a sit down with you and have a tea. Have a tea. I also feel like when you are like three months past something, you're also like, you've just started to get over it. And then like, then they come back. Like, they sense it. Yeah, yeah. But three months is still quite raw. Yeah. You know what I mean? I feel like it takes half a relationship to get over. Yeah. Like, is it, it takes half the time the relationship took? If you like, say if you were an hour for four years, I think it takes at least two years to get over that. Yeah. Maybe that was pretty bad. Yeah. That's, it's not the thing that it takes half the time that you've been together. That's what I heard. Yeah. Kind of agree that, or it just takes a while to get them out of your system. And I feel like three months. And if you, you know, I think part of it is also like, they keep popping up in your life now because it's social media. And you know, is this would have been ideal back in the day?

17:34Well, I'm sorry. I'm not a line. I mean, I'm sorry. I have mine, where it's like, I totally feel like if Eleanor existed today, she'd be like, lurking on the Instagram page, accidentally like something from five years ago and then be like, no. Yeah. Yeah. I thought Eleanor would be so like, she'd play it cool. She played it so cool. She played it cool. That's why I mean, she'd lurk on the page. She wouldn't find into a DM. She wouldn't find out the... She wouldn't find out the... She wouldn't find out the... She wouldn't find out the... Yeah. Constantly, she'd just be doing it privately and, you know, her private. But would Mary Anne be like, post... post-breakup on Instagram? Oh. Mary Anne would be like, dishing all the tea in a story. She would be doing like, those like, confessional reels. You know, when people break up and they do those confessional reels? In five parts, like... That's a lot of... And we're like, go. I'm like, here for it. I want to know. I want to know. She'd be a star. I'm not being a star. She'd be a star. And I also think she... If she liked someone would be messaging them. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Which is, I mean, yeah. We've all been this.

18:34It's the end of the game. Also, do you think with the ex-circling back, do you think it really depends on what they say? Like, if it's like a big, I've come to Jesus moment and I'm going to write you a letter and it's going to be this like big proclamation of love or is it just like a... ease in? Like, what would they expect? What would they need, your characters? Hmm. Well, I feel like Eleanor would need to know, well, with Edward, because he's pretty, you know, he doesn't... He withholds some quite vital information when they initially... Yeah, that was paying in. That was paying in. That was paying in. Pretty painful. I feel like she's quite forgiving of him because ultimately she knows it comes from a space of morality that he's sort of... He feels morally obliged to... She's pretty stressful for him as well. Yeah. To, you know, be a long-term with Lucy Steele. I don't know. I feel like again, it all depends on the breakup, you know? Yeah, true. Like, if it's a will-a-be who comes, you know, in the night when Marianne's ill and is trying to be like, you know, but I love it. Like, no. No. Sorry. Yeah, no. He thought it was that. Yeah.

19:34He has a flare. Yeah. For the dramatic... For the dramatic scene. Yeah. What do you reckon? I don't know. It's so difficult. I feel like I just keep wanting to answer these questions, as much as I... I think you can. I'm like, I guess Marianne... I mean, no, as the one's yourself. I need the advice. As myself, I would say, I feel like no ex is worth anybody's time. I feel like if it doesn't work out, it doesn't work out for a reason, and your person is out there, and you'll get over it. Like, the amount of times I've thought I was sad about something, and I look back, and I'm like, oh, no, I really wasn't sad, and like, no, I've met my person. So it's weird. It's like, you don't... I think context is everything, and I think that... I mean, obviously there are exceptions to the rule. But generally, from my life experience, which is not that long, but I would say... If it didn't work out, leave it in the past. Focus on yourself. I need to hear that. Thank you, guys.

20:34Okay. Thinking final question as well, like, because I think so much of... I think Diana Reid captured it so well, but just Jane Austen's end-to-enemability, it's like the... The situations haven't changed. We're still ghosting, love bombing, all of these... The sister dynamics, like the 19-year-old feel, like that hasn't changed, but time obviously has. But it's just so relevant, it's so modern still, and so I'm wondering, what would be your piece of advice that your characters would give to me? Does that do like someone in 2026 dating? Dating in 2026. I mean, it's nightmare. Was it more of a nightmare now than... Oh... What? Or is it not changed, actually? More of a nightmare then, for sure, because marriage... More stakes. More stakes, because when it comes to the dashers, they lose their fortune and marriage, holds a kind of... Well, it's their safety and security, and also it's just sucks that that's the case, that the money went to their brother,

21:35and that... And Austen, real life. Right. Crazy. I like about... I don't know that either. Well, I like about the dashwords is... Is that they ultimately actually choose for love. They don't... You know, I think that their mother encourages that. They seem a little less concerned about. Well, because they support themselves, and it's like a sort of a story about female resilience. So, yeah, I would say it was more hazardous by... Yeah. But I also think, you know, there was something to the... I do love the romance of letter writing and balls and... Ring of arc. I don't know. Community was such a big thing then, and yeah... So there's some parts of it that I quite love. But yeah, I don't know. It's pretty hazardous today as well today, you know. It's like, even meeting people IRL is really difficult. Yeah. Everything's on an app. I can't imagine what their Instagram will... Handles would be or the... Yeah. The advice is to find some dancers, or some real life in there. Yeah. Let's bring them back. I don't know. We're gonna find that. What do you think?

22:35Oh my god. I don't know. It's out there. It's out there. I love... Because you're engaged. Right. Yes. I love when you hear from friends that are like in these... You can release like stable release. I know, you're like... You're like, give me hope. Everybody's like, what's the advice? No, I was so confused for such a long time. And so not myself and didn't know who I was. And it took me a really long time to figure that out. And even growing up in like a liberal environment, it was still difficult to kind of be myself. And if it was hard for me, I can't imagine how hard it is for like other people. Like, you know, so... I just don't know the advice. You know, obviously I couldn't be who I am. And back when this movie was made, there's like a lot of grief, I think, associated with like being or trying to be someone else. I think, you know, when it comes to like your sexuality for a long time. So I think that with the only advice I could give to someone else is to, especially when it comes to men, I think is to like... Be...

23:36I don't know. They all suck. Like, no, they don't. They do. And you know, I'm not to get to, but, you know, like the... Yeah, anyway. What's about? Yeah. Yeah, because I think that boys are really entitled. And I think there's a lot of education that needs to happen. So I think with dating, you need to really lean on your... on your girlhood and your sisterhood and be vulnerable with the women in your life, because they're going to be the ones protecting you and helping you when bad shit happens, which I think is just like a rye of passage as a woman in this life. It is. But it's also like that's such a perfect end as well, because that is the takeaway from the film. Like, it really is the sister dynamic and how they get each other. They help each other navigate through life. And yeah, I'm just so thrilled that you guys are... The idea that you guys are in my studio right now is kind of crazy. So thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for coming on. So lovely to chat to you. So lovely. Thank you. Lovely to meet you.