Dough - Series 5: Cinemas

0:00Hello, I'm Greg Foote and welcome to Doe, the show that explores the future wonder products that might rise to success and redefine our lives. Each episode I speak with entrepreneurs and experts to hear where today's trends may take us tomorrow, and our resident futurist makes their predictions for what we may all be doing in 5, 10 and 50 years time. Today we're asking, what is the future of the cinema? Is streaming really killing off the big screen? Why are plastic popcorn buckets becoming collectors items? And could the cinema of the future be a giant panoramic dome? Alongside me, to help frame what happens next, he's always looking ahead to the next scene, it is futurist Tom Cheese writes. Hello, Greg, looking forward to a blockbuster episode. Are you a regular cinema goetom? I am, yeah, we love it as a family activity. I have to be centre centre, have to be in the perfect seat, and my family get pushed

1:00out of the way for B to bag Z the perfect seat, whatever we've got. I get the one that's most central. I love that as well. Okay, so before we look forward, let's check in with how cinema is doing now. My first guest founded and runs one of the biggest cinema operators in the UK, Vue. Welcome Tim Richards, hi Tim. Hello. Vue went from having its best year in 2019 to being shut for the best part of two years through Covid. How close did you get to not surviving that? It was a tough period. It was one of those apocalyptic moments that you wouldn't wish on your worst enemy. And there wasn't just the two years of the pandemic, we came out of it, and then Hollywood thought that would be a great time to all go on strike. So we really lost three out of four years in effect, and then it took another six months to get really back into production, and now we're seeing the results of it. Now you've said you don't see streaming as your competition at all. Why is that? Firstly, I think that people who love movies, love movies in all formats, but we have

2:05always been complimentary. We are out of home entertainment and not in home entertainment. And there's always going to be a demand to leave your flat with your friends or your family or even on your own to go and watch a movie. We're very competitively priced for an evening or an afternoon out, particularly compared to other forms of other home entertainment. And we don't see that changing. Well, let me bring in our second guest. He's spent more than 25 years in and around the industry. He works for Cinema Next, which is the largest installer and upgrade of cinemas across Europe. And he's known in the trade as the Cinema Guru. Patrick Vonsehowski, welcome to Do. Thank you very much for having me on. I know you've got all the stats on this Patrick. So what is the UK's cinema attendance sitting at right now? And how does that compare to pre-pandemic? So pre-pandemic, it averaged about 2.6 percent per person per year and now we're back to only 1.8. But those numbers hide the fact that some people never go or mainly they go when there's a bond film out and some people go much, much more frequently.

3:06So roughly, we're about 80 percent of where we were before the pandemic. Streaming has had an impact, but it's not the impact that you think. They compete for the talent, the actors and directors. But if you look at the audiences, the people who go most frequently to the cinema tend to be the people who have the most streaming accounts as well. So a frequent cinema guru, the most frequent cinema guru, has an average 4 to 5 subscriptions at the same time. And Patrick, who is the biggest demographic that is going to the cinema right now? Well, this will probably surprise people because we thought we'd lost the young people to TikTok, to streaming. They are, in fact, the most frequent cinema goers now. It's the older generation that we've lost or that scene had declined. A key part of that is something that I only heard about recently, letterboxed. Tell us about that. So letterbox is the social media network for people who really love films. It's a small New Zealand company that has just exploded in popularity. You can log films that you've seen, you can write films, you can write little reviews, you can share lists, your top four films of all time.

4:10And I know young people, you know, my nephew and others who will not leave a cinema, they'll sit through the credits after the film until they have logged that film and until they have given it a star rating. And then they can share it and then they can see what their friends say or what famous people recommend. What are your four favorite films that you put on letterbox is a thing. They even ask stars on the red carpet about it. Well, let's explore some of the technology that has changed and where it may go in the future. So around 2010 to 2012, there was a big move from the physical reels of 35 millimeter film to digital files and projections, Patrick, what changes are we seeing right now? So we thought the big change was done when we went digital, but it was really only the start because technology keeps changing. So we first had digital projection. Now we have laser light powered projectors, which means that you've got even better images. You have things such as high dynamic range, which you will find, for example, in views epic screens where you get brighter, bright, darker blacks, you get more popping colors,

5:10you get immersive audio from Dolby Atmos. So it's not just around you, it's around you. And you get more comfortable seats. So there's technology arms rates and who can provide the best, most immersive kind of experience at the cinema. I was reading about perforated LED screens that have been installed at some cinemas in Europe. Yeah. Instead of projecting the film now, we can even transmit the film. And people think of LED like they do have their screen at home, but this is significantly different and better. But what it means is you scale up LED technology to the size of a wall, but you can't have the speakers on the side or a soundbar underneath. The dialogue needs to come from the mouth of the actors. And therefore, by perforating the screen, they can put the speakers behind the screen as they have for conventional screens for over a hundred years now. And it makes a big difference because images are brighter, they're more colorful, they're just, wow. Tim, why do you stand on LED screens? Well, this is an emerging technology that we've been tracking.

6:10They've been out for a little while. And as Patrick said, certainly the first and second generation of the screens really suffered because of sound. And the perforated screens are a partial solution. But I think like all emerging technologies, you know, these are still early days. And we expect the next few years that will be part of the future of screens, particularly for smaller rooms as well. Patrick, kind of mentioned your own premium format, Epic earlier. What makes that different from iMacs? When we came out of a pandemic and the strikes, we realized we were a little bit behind in terms of PLFs, the premium large format screens like iMacs. We looked at a lot of different possibilities. And we wanted something that was future proof. We wanted something that was part of the future and not part of the past. The emerging technology right now is put out by a company in Belgium called Barco. And they have these incredible laser projectors with what they call light stirring technology.

7:15And we married that with Dolby Atmos, which is the absolute standard for sound. We came together with some amazing seats and we came up with a new brand called Epic. And it's been a big success. OK, that's the tech of what we watch. Let's talk about the wider experience of going to watch the film. A big part of that for lots of people are the snacks. Patrick, many cinemas of up their snack game, haven't they? All the cinemas are up in their snack game or food game because they know they don't have to share those profits with the Hollywood studios. They get to keep all the money. But if I had to pick up everyone, it's probably the boutique chains led by every man. You can get hot foods so you can get burgers, pizzas, not shows. You can get wine with it. But the cinemas also true now for the cousins for the picture houses. And the big cinema chains are getting in on it too because the Odin Luxentine will bring food to your seat. Tim, you have been experimenting with a new way of cinema. Go is buying this next.

8:16Have a new tell us about view your way. We wanted a frictionless experience for our customers so they could actually go from bus or tube seat or car seat directly into their cinema seat without touching their wallet or their phone. And we're not quite there yet, but we're very close. We installed gates where we've got facial recognition technology, although it has not been turned on. It will be sometime next year. And we got rid of our concession stand and we're using our entire foyer as a retail area. We have one area with merchandising, which is a growing part of our business. We have an area for healthier food options, traditional popcorn and cinema fair together with finger food. We have cameras all over the entire area to track what you're purchasing. And again, that has not been turned on. We're still tweaking our operating system. But right now we have a tap in and effectively a tap out with what you've purchased. Sometime next year we're going to be flicking the switch with a new operating system that will allow you to walk right through,

9:23route whatever products you like and go to your seat without touching your phone or wallet. And that is our goal. What makes you think that the public will accept facial recognition? Right. Some people think it's a little bit too big brother. Well, I mean, I think we're going to have the alternative and you will be able to sign up and register for it. And for our customers who would rather not use official recognition technology, then they will be able to tap in with their ticket as we have right now. So we'll have both options for our customers. What would you say to someone who says that this is just another way to reduce costs? Because you're going to be employing fewer staff. There is fewer staff. There are fewer staff. But we are a full service company. And we've been doing extensive market analysis where we put in our new concept of your ways and the realities from our customers. Are that they believe that there is enhanced or increased service? Because we no longer have any of our staff in back of house. There are now all front of house with our customers and helping them that much faster.

10:26I know that you can also get beer wine. How do you stop kids scrapping that from a self-service for you? Well, there's absolutely staff there. So it's actually very easy to control it. And we've not had any issues at all so far. Do you find that with people having a few beers before during the film, that maybe there's demand for an extra break in the film or a pause button maybe? Asking for a friend. Well, this is something you've pushed a little bit because I've been trying for 20 years to get intermissions in the UK in the way that we used to have them. Yeah, I remember as a kid. Yeah. But the studios right now so far will not allow intermissions in the UK, even though there are intermissions in other markets across Europe and international. Patrick, would you like an intermission? Oh, I think with the length of the film these days, yes, definitely. You can somewhere concessions in that time, but also have a comfort break. Tim just mentioned having a merchandise side of the foyer. I've been reading about collectible popcorn buckets, Patrick.

11:29Tell us all about those. Collectible popcorn buckets is the blockbuster that nobody's so coming. It is literally exploded in interest. And because it's radio, you can't see me holding it up. But I'm holding in my hands a slightly sinister looking teddy bear head. That's huge. It's plastic. Yeah, it's both size reparsible. And it's got a little top hat on top of it. And if I open it, you see it's empty inside. So this is from a film called Five Nights at Freddy's. It's one of the characters. So the cinemas have become very clever at selling merchandising that ties in with the film. So you had the June sandworm popcorn bucket for the Odyssey. IMAX had two of them. So it was a replica horse made from plastic and a replica IMAX 17 millimeter cameras. It's a business that's going to make it's estimated $100 million for AMC, the parent company of Odin. And these popcorn vessels, they can retail for about up to 40,

12:3050 pounds each because they're limited edition. So a red handbag for the Devil Wars product too. Also, it's a very, very clever bucket. So if you want to call them that, there's so much more. Tim, have you stocked any of these crazy popcorn buckets? Well, not only have we stocked them, but we've tried desperately to control them. The demand was so great for all of the merchandising. And it wasn't just popcorn boxes, just everything related to specific movies that we had to put limits on them. When you had to buy a ticket, you couldn't kind of walk in off the street because we wanted to keep them for our customers. And then people were buying them and said, volume, we had to restrict them to two or three per ticket. Lots of people are getting excited about something called Cosm. There are currently three Cosm cinemas in the US, in LA, Dallas and Atlanta. The name Cosm isn't an acronym. It is derived from Cosmoss and Coliseum, paying homage to the company's roots in planetariums, and the history of the amphitheater as a place for live events.

13:31On the line from America to tell us more, is Cosm's vice president for business development and entertainment, Alexis Scalise. Alexis, describe then for us what Cosm venues look like. And how are they different from a regular cinema? Cosm is a feature of an 87-foot in diameter dome with 12K resolution. So it literally wraps around you. We have three different floors, seven bars. Really what we say is all about the fan experience. We're all about the fandom. And we love kind of being like an institution for people to come and celebrate their favorite fan moments, whether it's in sports or it's an entertainment with cinema. You've talked about Cosm offering a shared reality experience without the need for 3D glasses or headsets. Yeah, we define shared reality as like the physical meeting of the digital world. Together you're feeling that a mercility where the film is wrapping around you. So we're really we're all about transporting you to a different world. So when in sports, you know, you will feel like you're literally court side and an NBA game.

14:33And in cinema we're transporting you to Hogwarts with Harry Potter and that's transported in nature is really the immersive touch, but really makes people feel like they're part of the show, a part of the production. Yeah, you mentioned sport. You showed 40 World Cup matches this summer. I mean, you didn't just show the match. It looked like you added special graphics. And you also had some of your own production team on the ground. Yeah, we have our production teams all around the world with our own proprietary cameras. So it's really kind of the secret sauce of Cosm. We have our cameras and kits on the ground in all different types of auditoriums or fields and venues. And we're bringing that immersive life be capture back to our venues that we have open. Patrick, have you experienced one of these? I visited the Cosm for the first time this year. And I have to say I've been writing and involved in cinema for over 25 years. And I was blown away. It was like nothing else I've seen. I mean, you were truly immersed and without having a toaster strap to your head. I'm not a sports fan. I don't go to sports games.

15:34I would happily sit through hockey match, you know, I've put on match anything just for the experience that they're offering. And films even better. They showed clips when I visited of Harry Potter. Matrix, the original Charlie and the Chocolate Factory. And I hear they've got Stephen King's It Coming Up. And they are just watching those familiar films in a completely new way. Yeah, because that's key. You're not showing the current blockbusters. You're not showing the Odyssey, for example. But you are showing some of these retro classics. I guess films studios must be very pleased that you're showing these past films, giving them yet more life, Alexis. Yeah, we're reintegrating a lot of these franchise classics. The important thing is we keep the film the hero. We build incredible effects around that, but we really stay true to the legacy of the film. What are the chances of Cosm coming to the UK? We've lived with Cosm to be everywhere. So I would say stay tuned. Stay tuned. Well, Alexis, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you very much, Adam. So that is something that's happening in America right now. Let's look elsewhere in the world

16:34to see what other international trends may come our way. Patrick, let's start with China. What trends have you seen there? China has been more new to building moreplexes than the UK, which means at the moment they're probably slightly overscrained and they don't know what to do with those additional screens. So they think you have new things like cultural events, like having stand-up comedy, like having educational events. There's even something called hot pot cinema where the audiences cook at their seat a stew of mix of vegetables and meat. So if you really don't like the smell of food in the cinema, do not go to a hot pot cinema. Yes, little twist on hot tub cinema, isn't it? South Korea has also been seen as a cinema innovator. What can we learn from what they've been pioneering? Well, they've been exporting cinema technologies, like 40X, the motion seats and screen X, the rapid-around immersive screens, as well as obviously K-pop and Parasite and Squid games. Now they're looking at what to do with other things that attract audiences to the multiplex,

17:36even if they're not there to see a film. So they've got climbing walls, they've got bowling alleys. Some of this is ready to be in Testin' UK, so you've got a cinema chain called The Light, which does that. They have darts, they have video games, and they have climbing walls as well. So it's more of an entertainment destination, but the films will always be the main attraction. Now, finally, it wouldn't be an episode of Do without a couple of questions on AI. Tim, you've been using AI in a very clever way at view. Tell us about it. 12 years ago, we embraced the emerging AI as it was then, and we brought a group over from San Francisco to try and develop an AI model for us. But around the 30th model, we knew that we were onto something big, and it was an absolute game changer. And AI right now has been booking our screens for the last 10 years, and it determines what our audience is seeing, what screen they see it in, and what time they see it in. The AI has determined what different audiences like,

18:37whether it be ethnic or demographic or age. It found that there was an Asian audience at our site in Bernasse, and we were able to bring Asian films to that particular community, Turkish community around Islington, and in a large Australian and Polish around Fulham Broadway, and so forth. It has that granular level of detail and focus at every one of our sites. So we actually are playing at any one time, 50% more movies than anyone else in the country. And we do that because the AI will determine that there's still a demand for toy story. Maybe it's only a couple screens on a weekend, and we're embarking right now on the next level of AI, which will be overseeing everything from concession inventory to staff scheduling, and all other operational issues within our cinema. So Tim, all of that has worked. What have you tried that didn't work? Well, that's an easy one. And the early days we had done Wimbledon finals previously,

19:41and we thought, you know, with 3D kind of emerging with the digital projectors, we thought it'd be kind of cool to try and 3D. And unfortunately, we had a camera placement literally on the ground in 3D, and our customers were physically sick. And our goal is not to have our customers throwing up in our cinemas when they're watching Wimbledon. And so we learned the hard way that cameras for 3D should be up a little bit higher in the stadium, screening down and looking down. I was reading about bean bags. Apparently you tried bean bags for seats. Yeah. Yeah. Well, they were noisy, and they had a little bit of kind of unwanted behavior. And I will say the unwanted behavior was from kids and adults. So we ended up kind of getting rid of those. It's always interesting when you look at the graveyard of initiatives that did not work for us over the years. And that's certainly one of them. Right. It's time for the question that I ask all my guests. So Patrick, Tim, looking at the future of cinemas,

20:44what one thing do you think will rise to success and what will fall into obscurity, Tim? Well, I think it is the use of AI and technology to make our customers' journey that much more exciting. And I think the future, what you're going to see are screens like Cosm. I'm really impressed with what they've been doing. And I think that you're going to see other screens. I'm not trying to pick on iMacs, but the iMacs style of screen, which is not Cosm at all. And I think you're going to start to see those ones start to fall away in a movement towards kind of a more immersive experience, generally. Patrick, what do you think? So apart from even more imaginative collectible popcorn buckets, I think we're going to start seeing something that I call jukebox cinemas, which is when the audience decides what it is that they want to watch. Yes, everybody wants to see the new Odyssey and Spider-Man, but for especially young audiences who haven't seen

21:45a Stanley Kubrick film or David Lynch film in cinema, with the help of AI and social media, we can bring those back and it can be more demand driven. So you don't have to program the same blockbuster every evening. You can program a more obscure title, but that has real traction on social media, on letterbox and so on. So it makes for a more interesting and more diverse mix at the cinema. And what do you think is going to fall into obscurity? Hopefully we will see the full obscurity of sticky floors, dirty toilets, of our customer service. You shouldn't have to go to a cosm or an iMacs or an epic screen to have a wonderful experience at the cinema. It should be a great experience in every single screen. Right then Tom, before we head for the exit, we need your final predictions. What will our cinemas be like in five, 10 and 50 years time? So five years, I think it's hard not to see fewer screens in total. The big, traditional, multiplexes.

22:47There's so much competition out there. We're going to see more of those close. 10 years, there's going to be even more competition for the eyeballs. Lots of smart glasses around at the moment. Definitely some controversy, but the possibility of that to give you that really immersive experience, whether that's in a shared space like a cinema or whether it's a home, I think that's going to capture more of the market still. But in 50 years, I think it's going to be something of a, a retro event, much more of this really experiential drive-ins, swimmings, whatever it may be. But yeah, real sort of resurgence in the long run of this retro shared experience. Very interesting. Well, that is a wrap on this episode. Big thank you to Tom Cheesewright, Patrick von Sehowski, Tim Riches and Alexis Scalise, which of these potential futures will prove successful. We'll just have to wait and see. Next time on Do, what could be the future for your pets? I hope you're finding out. See ya.

23:52This episode of Do was presented by me Greg Foot and produced by John Douglas. If you enjoyed listening to this, I recommend listening to an episode of our sister podcast Toast and what happened to easy cinema and its early attempts to introduce automatic entry turnstiles and online ticketing. You can find that on BBC Sounds. Do is a BBC Audio North production for BBC Radio 4 and BBC Sounds. A new series of rarely heard tales from World War Two. This was a suicide mission, deep into enemy territory. This was a crazy mission and by goodness gracious me, these men had guards. I'm Helen the Bonham Carter and for BBC Radio 4, this is history's secret heroes. Anyone who crossed the threshold was immediately in the chance by her. She was very sexy. She was obviously close to power. Listen first to history's secret heroes on BBC Sounds.