Ep 088 "Hybrid Warfare in the New Age: The Future Forward (Part Three)"

0:00I'm Bill Bupert, Retired Army Officer in a Regular Warfare Practitioner in Scholar. Welcome to Chasing Ghosts, in a regular warfare podcast. The show that examines the mythos, lost history, bad thinking, martial mile practice, and government incompetence that informs so much of a regular warfare. Today I want to peek behind the curtain at the vast machinery and briar patch politics of insurgency and counterinsurgency and everything in between. Now let's go ghost hunting together. Hello this is Bill and welcome to episode 88, Hybrid Warfare in the New Age, the future forward, part three, even though I think we'll be talking about hybrid warfare now into the immediate future. So a little bit of housekeeping for this episode per usual.

1:02I will be speaking at the gathering of Arcada, November 13th through the 14th and Boseman Montana. I will put the website and the show notes, would love to see some of my listeners there and we could have a chat and maybe have a wee drink or two between us. In other news, my youngest son has joined my middle son in joining the Orthodox Church. I'm pretty excited about that. I myself am a catacumain there and an aspirant in the church. I told my sons 15 years ago that if they wanted to seek a masculine Christianity that was concerned about preserving Western Christendom, that the only place they would find that would be an Orthodox Christianity, not the Protestants, not the Catholics. I was also recently on a show with Scott Horton, his provoked podcast that he does with the

2:07M&N Toe Darryl Cooper for the first time after a long time where I've been wanting to get on a show with Darryl, we were able to do so and found that we had a whole lot in common and a whole lot to discuss. I will also put that in the show notes if you'd like to watch that episode of Provoat. That is episode 062 of Provoat. So, in the previous two episodes we've discussed hybrid warfare, nonlinear warfare, gray zone warfare. It's evolved significantly over the years. I think it's both a factor of communications and technology and of course the amalgamation of both with communications technology itself flattening the hierarchy of people being able to get in touch with people through either clandestine or open source means. A brief review, hybrid warfare combines conventional and conventional methods including

3:08military operations, cyber warfare, disinformation campaigns, what the Russians used to call Dacin, Ft. Matsy and Muscovka and economic pressure. And there are a myriad of other things that one can align with that speaking of alignment. Don't think that these are linear processes, more so nonlinear processes because during conventional warfare or even irregular warfare, this can take place or the more apparently peaceful aspects of hybrid warfare can be either a preamble or a turning point during stability operations after main combat operations have ceased, driving the political and economic and socio-cultural ecology into a different direction than the original invaders had planned. One thing to keep in mind here is that this will be applied to conventional warfare, either hastily or deliberately.

4:10It will be applied by the antagonist or the protagonist. It will be applied in a number of different ways that I would say are unpredictable. If you look at the Russo-Ukrainian war right now, I think there's a clear example of these tactics in action. The conflict which began with Russia's annexation of the Crimea in 2014 has been marked by a mix of traditional military operations, cyber attacks and information warfare. I would tell you this goes back to 2008. If not going back to 1992 with the Russo-Ukrainian conflict, when it comes to this constant schizophrenia within the West, in which they continue to embark on these provocation operations against Russia with the neutrality or entry to membership to NATO dangling along these what would be for the Russians western buffer zones and what would be for the European continent in the

5:14West, the eastern buffer zones. You can even see this with China and Taiwan or China and Tibet. Or what's recently occurred here in this hemisphere with the United States and what they have done to our friends down south. I do find it curious, USAID, may be classified, this could be coincidence or this could be causative, I happen to think that it is correlative, that with the defunding of the US agency for international development, which one could share to be called a slush fund for the intelligence community in the United States and the West to use said monies, maybe untraceable monies or deniable monies, to conduct color revolutions, information campaigns and other such things to include using the wolcoification of the aid to go down and disrupt the cultural ecologies

6:16of these countries in a negative fashion. That disruption tends to the left and not to the right when it comes to the policies that emerge afterwards. And hybrid warfare is a conflict that blends conventional and unconventional methods, or for my students here on this podcast, those that are unconventional and those that are irregular. And it can include all of those things to include economic pressure. It's not limited to a single shape or dimension and can involve a mix of regular and irregular tactics, again, not necessarily in a linear fashion. The term hybrid warfare has been in use since at least 2005 when it was employed to describe the strategy used by Hezbollah in the disastrous war in 2006 in Lebanon for the Israelis. I would urge all of you who don't believe me that it was a disastrous war for the Israelis to take a gander at the Wino Grad Commission report in 2007 that talked about how Israel

7:22had dropped the ball in so many ways during that particular conflict. Now if we look at, as a case study, the Ukrainian and Russian war, as I mentioned, some claimant began in 2014, I would claim it begins probably towards the conclusion the Danuma of the Cold War in 1992 with the NATO blob considering its inexorable eastward expansion into Russia proper. I'm not defending the Russians and what some could call their provocation into the Ukraine. I'm not defending the Europeans in their reaction nor the Ukrainians and their reaction. What I am saying is that when one looks at what some historians have looked at as the paranoid style of the Russians, you can see why that's the case because in the 19th century there was the invasion by Napoleon from 1812, 1815.

8:24Then of course we can fast forward to June of 1941 when the marriage between the Soviet Union and the Nazis in Germany comes to a rather violent divorce. As a result they go to war with each other and by the fall and winter of 1941 the zombie German army takes four years to die between that time in April 1945. What you find curious about that whole thing is that in September 1939 when they had originally gotten married with this odd treaty between them the non-aggression pact that allowed them to share the spoils as it were in Poland and by the way fast forward to 1945 and you discover that you find Churchill promising Poland to the Soviet Russians. So now we have Russia in the 21st century. In the early stages of the war Russia employed a blend of conventional unconventional tactics to destabilize Ukraine and of course this is 2022 when that happens but it just so happens

9:31in the fall of 2020 in Nagorno-Karabakh between the Armenians and the Azerbaijanis they get into a conflict in which all of a sudden we see these notations, these indications of little green men and UAVs and FPVs as a matter of fact if one looks at the fall of 2020 and that little tiny corner of the world in the Gorno-Karabakh you see what is really a preamble, a prediction of things that are coming in it's pretty wild to look back at that time and discover that it was there written on the wall for us all to see but nobody was paying attention. Of course we all know that that war took a significant turn on February 24th 2022 when Russia launched a full-scale invasion of the Ukraine. March day shift, it marked a shift from hybrid warfare tactics used annexing Crimea and the other

10:33parts of the oblasts and the eastern part of the Ukraine to a more traditional form of warfare. Despite initial gains by Russian forces, Ukrainian defenders or Peltotempses sees Kiev this is where the VDV forces which would be their Disson troops, their parachute troops but by the way they were mostly arriving helicopters and we would discover on another note that the use of helicopters in the 21st century in this day and age of both missiles and UAVs that is a disaster. That's yet another thing we've learned during this conflict is that close support aircraft like A10s and the SU-25 A10 variant the frog foot that the Russians designed and rotary aircraft are things that are being kept behind kept to reserve not used near the front line of troops because in the salvo competition of these missile wars as it were one could law as they discovered

11:37a several $10,000 missile or variety of missiles at these multi-million dollar aircraft in this case helicopters and take them down for the count. Now this invasion wasn't executed in the same manner as 2014 with that annexation of the eastern oblasts. The gradual escalation of tensions and the failure of Russia at a strategic level to achieve its objectives became evident. It demonstrates that the complexities and challenges of hybrid warfare can take a turn the planners can never countenance. If we were to look for instance at the Chinese approach to hybrid warfare whether it's in the context of Taiwan the South China Sea or their software evolution and information operations that as a matter of fact they have conducted globally which is one of the reasons why Chinese soft power operations one could say hybrid warfare have been so effective in seeding the African continent to the soft power intentions of the Chinese and the hard power

12:45talents of the Russians. And China has developed significant capabilities in the cyber domain I would also offer that Russia has done the same and it's been accused of conducting cyber espionage and cyber attacks against foreign governments and corporations. The Chinese government views cyber warfare as consistent and a motif in its military strategy. And it also plays a crucial role in their hybrid warfare approach. China's hybrid warfare approach is designed to isolate Taiwan internationally, undermine its political system and gradually erode its will to resist unification with the mainland. Now I've talked about color revolutions in the past as a matter of fact I devoted an entire episode to it. A color revolution is simply the means by which covertly and maybe even through clandestine means the West or the East uses monies cyber espionage cyber operations cyber

13:52attacks and other such things to influence vote counts, influence democratic outcomes and influence the way political ecology shift in country as country after country trying to make them favor or remain neutral to the national security imperatives of the country that is employing these Chinese approaches multifaceted I would suggest Russia's is two and it reflects its strategic objectives and the evolving security environment and I would also like to emphasize that when it comes to hyperpowers and when it comes to regional hedgements and those like Russia and China that are very concerned not only with their global image or global strategic acumen but also to those countries or blocks that happen to be contiguous to them it makes them think in a defensive mindset that a global superpower like the United States whether it's because of strategic deficit disorder

14:59or the lack of a budget they defend their respective countries but countries like the United States again as a global hedgeman thinks that the best defense is in offense leaving key defensive strategies completely open to being leveraged or taken advantage of for instance here in the homeland America despite spending trillions of dollars on defense and over a trillion dollars a year when you include the Department of Energy cutouts for nuclear weapons and nuclear reactor technology you find again and again they don't spend the time to defend the homeland the missile defense agency in charge of as you can guess missile defense of the United States spends three tenths of one percent of the total trillion dollar budget of the DOW and the DOE

16:00you'll find that a lot of these powers that are exploiting this and the US is no exception to the rule in using hybrid warfare are doing this because of the changing nature of power and the shift the diffusion that we see as it were from state power to non-state power or state powers using and manipulating non-state or semi-state powers in the wild one can say for instance that another cause of hybrid warfare is a desire states to achieve their objectives without resorting to conventional action which is often costly and risky hybrid warfare allows states to exploit the gray zone between peace and war using military and non-military I would suggest that when you look at the recent Venezuelan kerfuffle through hindsight one can ask well if they had such redoubtable and really highly renowned air defenses and uh

17:01stratagem for militias interacting with conventional forces at home in Venezuela how did the United States pull off the I'm putting in air quotes the abduction of the Venezuelan dictator and his repatriation to the United States with so few losses it is my pet theory that uh the United States was allowed to go in there they made arrangements to go in there with a very modest military show of force and suffering very few casualties were able to extract the dictator and bring him back to the states to be disposed of as the administration wishes so I'm very suspect that there was some hybrid warfare or even gray zone intrigue going on here where forces in the know were told to stand down even among the the Praetorian guard for the Venezuelan dictator who allegedly apparently had a Cuban personal bodyguard that uh was very good at what they did but

18:10what I've heard because we haven't heard much and I can't sustain this with any evidence it appears that they all died to a man this Cuban Praetorian guard I don't know whether that was done internally prior to it or because of some forces that went in on the vanguard as it were and took care of those to pave the way for the snatch look in the end we need a new framework the traditional understanding of warfare which primarily focuses on focuses on conventional military conflict which by the way I uh address in my war notes conflict podcast if you're interested hybrid warfare it's characterized by blending conventional irregular cyber along with other non-military tools like the color revolutions that I was talking about and it seems to be a prevalent if not prevailing strategy for state actors and by the way those state actors would

19:12employ non-state actors when the opportunity comes uh the key elements of this framework would be the role of non-state actors in hybrid warfare and this includes not only the insurgent groups and terrorists but also cyber criminals hackers and other actors who state actors can co-opt to achieve their objectives for instance there was cooperation during World War II between the Pentagon National Security Elements and the FBI to foment a relationship with Kosonostra the mafia in Sicily and Italy at the time to try to make for preamble inroads before the invasion at Anzio and such there's an incorporation of technological developments the framework should incorporate the impact of those on warfare I would give you a for instance would be the great pager if not criminally ingenious use of uh pager bombs with plastic explosives by the Israelis

20:17where somehow they made the use of pagers ubiquitous because they had convinced the Hezbollah and telegencia and leadership that even the use of handheld phones land lines and those kind of were so compromised that pagers would be the way to do it somehow ingeniously I'm certain and historian or maybe there's even a book out soon enough we'll describe how that operation managed to get all of those plastic explosives into the pager network favored by Hezbollah at the time and injured and killed so many of them on a fateful day the one problem with this for major first world states in this peer competition that we have is that even when you look at peer states and notice I didn't employ the term near peer like Yemen, Oman certain African nations even certain South American nations like Cuba hits way above their pay grade and weight status when it comes to

21:24non-conventional and irregular warfare they punch way above that they're not Walter weights when it comes to this this is a way for them to equilibrate or even make up for their lack of military heft in the composition disposition of their forces whether ancient or new of course the powers that be come up with their bureaucratic power point talking points about how they're going to fight this hybrid zone gray zone warfare among which would be the strengthening of international cooperation building resilience which is two words in a sentence that had been used by the Department of Defense and the Department of War for decades if not generations and they've done nothing to make it manifest in anything that they do investing in R&D enhancing legal and normative frameworks adopting a whole of government approach and promoting strategic communication a lot

22:25of buzzwords that they employ that I would suggest you are rather dead that they don't work in the fashion that they think that they're going to because the bottom line when it comes to this to borrow from Nassim Talib with anti-fragility is my old watchword that all insurgencies should I say never I'll say never should I say no I won't even say never I'll say mostly most insurgencies are anti-fragile but I can say that all counter insurgencies are by their very nature fragile and subject to bureaucratic collapse strategic deficit disorder or just the absolute inability to effectively do anything well as a matter of fact as I've said again and again and I recently talked about this in episode 62 with Darryl Cooper and Scott Horton is that America boasts an exquisite 20th century

23:28fighting force not fit for purpose to fight any peers in the 21st century with anything that they have to offer when it comes to expeditionary war fighting you will note that that laundry list of things that I just listed is what one would find in advocacy tank I don't like to call them think tanks because they're always advocating for what the government line is or whatever was in the abstract or presee of the contracts they accepted that anticipated what those results would be the number one way one fights hybrid warfare is by not getting involved in other people's wars not starting new wars not policing every country or group of countries on earth and I would say that in this case when one looks at Western Europe and America don't allow unescorted military

24:30age males into your country especially illegally but not even legally because that makes as you can ask the Romans from the 5th century and Odomini that makes for a army within your walls that will do what they're told to do once they find their way and find that through dissatisfaction this could be 10% of that total that what they're bringing into the country is absolutely inimicable to what that country's political and socio-cultural ecology is and that as a result they could wreak havoc and by the way they would be the ones internally in a given country whether it's in Western Europe or the United States or Canada or any other country they would find a way to leverage these hybrid warfare opportunities that I've been describing and talking about for instance

25:32can one characterize the hundreds of billions of dollars of government fraud from the city to the county to the state to the federal level in the United States and everything in between all of this fraud that's taking place is that a form of hybrid warfare well one doesn't know yet but we will know through the fullness of time so I'm going to talk to you about one of my buzzwords that goes back to episode two of this podcast and that would be anti-fragility now hybrid warfare anti-fragility refers to the strategic framework of designing systems and societies whose doctrines their defense doctrines do not merely withstand gray zone attacks but actually grow stronger more adaptive and highly integrated as a direct result of being targeted there was a recent article in the military strategy magazine called anti-fragile adversaries how to defeat them and in there there's

26:38a very interesting excerpt quote the new typology is more useful than the others because the directs the attention of the strategist to what really matters to the effects of strategic performance the topology does not tell the whole story of strategic interaction but it explains the scheme it outlines the character the challenges and the options to deal with the specific adversaries by this it provides a strategic practitioners it provides strategic practitioners with the central lenses to understand and anticipate what happens in strategic practice above all it conveys the message that the strategist has an active role in play in shaping the character of his own adversaries the ways in which the strategist treats his adversary may alter the latter's characteristics and profoundly improve the prospects of these strategists success and of quote and a former student of mine and a defense intellectual who I hold a very high regard talked about strategic empathy and the ability of the intelligence community and even the professional

27:43military officer to appreciate not only who his antagonist may be but how they think where they come from what is the culturally collogy that they come from how is it that they would place themselves on the map to go to war with America quote the topology can provide guidance for contemporary as well as for future future strategic practice some readers may consider the clear distinction between warm peace that underlines the proposed apology as a limiting factor in the utility it has now become fashionable to speak about the so-called gray zone the term stands for a mysterious but no-defined space between warm peace where most of the contemporary conflicts are supposed to take place and of quote I find a lot of this to be the kind of bug bear that I encounter in academic double speak but it is getting to a point here that's important to make and that's the fact that one must in strategic empathy in practicing strategic craft you must be clear-headed

28:47and sober in not only assessing what your strengths are but what your weaknesses are and if you assess those weaknesses in an honest fashion which isn't something that is prized in the uniform ranks of today's military in the US and the West I think that you will find paths to success that America hasn't experienced since 1945 when it comes to its martial endeavors I'm going to give you an illustration the paradigm shift that difference between fragile versus resilient versus anti-fragile defense a fragile defense is highly centralized optimized for a very specific type of war like world war two it's a response to a hybrid attack is that it breaks down completely under novel non-traditional stress critical data grids wiped out public trust collapses portable power evaporates gen-set mechanics are targeted on moss and then the expeditionary framework falls apart

29:51in resilience you harden the defenses they're built to bounce back it absorbs the attack patches the vulnerability and restores the baseline but incurs a heavy cost where the end of this paradigm shift is the anti-fragile decentralized modular and self-learning the attack triggers automatic defense evolution unifies previously siloed sectors and hardens future networks what I harken back to is the Reichswehr and Vermax adoption of something called Alftrack Stäck and if I mispronounced that for my German speakers please my greatest apologies but what it means is mission command what it means is that for my persistent listeners you've heard this before but I'm going to review for those of you who haven't heard it before it's erecting a military structure in which your NCOs and officers they're built not only on character they're not only conversant and tactical

30:51decision games not only have they rehearsed and practiced and taken military history even on as part of their craft but they're aware of the intent of their commander there and there were of the intent operationally and strategically so that when members of their chain of command are incapacitated wounded or killed they can step into the breach despite being low ranking officers and take charge because they know what to do they may have been issued the plans that they'd have to comply with if that's the kind of organization they were into such as an Arab Army and they can't change they can't shift they can't jink and jive they can't nip and tuck they can't take advantage of a changing environment in which fog and friction as our buddy Carl von Klausfits would talk to us about so that when you run up against something that wasn't in

31:51the plan or something that the adversary is doing that is quite surprising one can press forward one can go in a fashion in which the enemy doesn't expect it whether it's surprise whether it's deception whether it's the sheer naked talent vector and factor that you have that is superior to yours and you can take advantage of that and drive on those are the hallmarks of an anti-fragile defense and an anti-fragile offense key factors and this is decentralization over centralized fragility centralized bureaucracies and single source infrastructure grids are primary targets for hybrid warfare an anti-fragile network relies on a mosaic or highly distributed structure if an adversary targets a localized energy grid or communication hub via cyber attack the wider system can dynamically route or reroute around that failure second it's

32:52whole of society countermeasures hybrid warfare aims to exploit the gaps between government the military private industry in the civilian population and military argo and parlance it is that flanking maneuver that can be inserted into the artificial demarcation line of units that could take advantage of that drive forward a wedge between said units on a conventional battlefield and outflank them maybe even take them in a rearward direction and defeat them as a matter of course strategic stressing the vaccine concept in anti-fragile theory a system rots if it is never challenged in defense terms this means routinely stress testing institutional responses via red teaming and simulated cyber economic disruptions experiencing minor sub-threshold gray zone irritations allows defense networks to continually adapt ensuring they aren't fragile when a major conflict occurs

33:57a for instance of this would be a unit whether it's a battalion combat team or gay combat team regimental combat team or division or even something as large as a core when they practice when they rehearse for warfare left a bang they practice by turning the lights out by removing the gen sets by turning off their computers by breaking out the acetate and breaking out the maps and stress testing their ability to use hell going back to 19th century means to exploit 21st century problem sets now seem to lab is fond of this notion of the cost arbitrage and in this case it could be a post-attack cost arbitrage in traditional gray zone conflicts the attacker enjoys a cheap car cost arbitrage it costs very little to cut an undersea cable or launch a bot network compared to what the defender spends to fix it an anti-fragile doctrine inverts this it uses an attack as an

35:01immediate justification to build highly modern more autonomous and superior infrastructure meaning the adversaries actions inadvertently accelerate the targets technological dominance for instance if one looks at what Osama bin Laden did in 911 when you read his thought was from the 1990s you see whether you read it between the lines or just start to make educated guesses that he was thinking for a two million dollar minus investment in hiring folks maybe he didn't have to hire the most likely they were volunteers but hiring some of the mechanisms and links he would need to make those attacks happen he would force the adversary in this case to resort to traditional responses which would quite literally and I think that we can paraphrase Osama bin Laden here make the west spend trillions into itself in oblivion and attack middle eastern countries and create

36:06for themselves an extraordinarily hostile environment to peaceful gains for the United States and the West in the Middle East for the remainder of this century he succeeded one could call terrorists the original gangsters of Greyzone warfare and hybrid zone warfare when you look at real world execution of these kind of things before 2022 Ukraine's data systems faced unrelenting cyber pressure instead of constantly patching fragile localized servers they quickly migrated critical state registries and banking services to the cloud and utilized highly decentralized satellite internet in the Iranian mosaic doctrine doctrine from an adversarial perspective strategist often point to Iran's defensive posture anticipating heavy conventional blockades and cyber threats its military structure relies heavily on decentralized proxy cells mobile missile platforms buried

37:09infrastructure localize maritime units designed to absorb strikes and autonomously retaliate without needing a central command hub one could look at what's been going on with Yemen and the Houthi in the way they have been besting the eighth largest army in the world which is the Saudi army one of the most expensive formations on planet earth which pound for pound is probably one of the least talented armed forces in the last hundred years in modern diplomacy recently there was an interesting article I'll put it in the show notes and it says quote more broadly the Iranian case raises deeper questions for deterrence theory classical deterrence relies on the threat of punishment against an adversaries critical assets but when those assets are deliberately decentralized and resilient punishment becomes harder to define and harder to impose in this case the Iranian mosaic in such context deterrence may depend less on threatening destruction than on demonstrating the

38:13ability to withstand prolonged confrontation therefore the emerging strategic landscape suggest to shift from destruction based strategy toward resilience based strategy there's that word again in conflicts against distributed adversaries strategic success may depend less on striking first than on enduring longer the war without a center thus challenges some of the most enduring assumptions of western strategic thought end of quote august 24th 1814 the british thought by burning down the white house the war of 1812 would end in their favor but much as was discovered when they did the same thing during the american revolutionary war during that divorce from london and then later between 1860 and 1865 where richman was threatened and subsumed these things did not end the war because to a certain extent when we even look at those way back when we find that hybrid warfare was alive

39:18and well well you would ask how did hybrid warfare take place before computers and such during the american revolutionary war for instance from 1775 to 1783 well it just so happens that the silver Smith Paul revere who wrote out with two other writers to sound the alarm on april 19th 1775 that the redcoats were out to seize powder munitions and things like that well revere was a member of 22 committees of correspondence committees of correspondence were alarm rosters alarm bells folks who would write out on horseback or find ways to like the fires as a word if you recall from the lord of the rings movie where in order to alert other localities that something was a foot they would light a flame and then the next mountain topover would see the set flame and like that

40:23these committee of committees of correspondence were a form of hybrid warfare gray zone warfare as a matter of fact i would say that they were a harbinger of things to come guerrilla movements from things that happened in french indochina and french algeria to all the african conflicts and everything in between use these kind of gray zone and hybrid zone conflict components to accompany if not complement actual military conventional operations that would be conducted and that article goes on to say quote this in turn suggests that the present conflict in a ron is not merely a military confrontation it illustrates how a state can transform the apparent fragility of its political center into an architecture of distributed strategic resilience in this sense decapitation presupposes the existence of a center in a strategic architecture conceived as a mosaic

41:26destroying the center does not end the war it disperses across the system and of quote and what anti fragility teaches us is that when you disperse these kind of shocks across the system the system more able to absorb it because it spreads that energy across the entire system and not simply one point of pressure so if you take one thing away from this three part series and this conclusion today these illustrative remarks talking about well what are we doing about it now and what will we do in the future what this really means is that unless the west adopts anti-fragile strategies and everything that it does from this point forward it will end in continued defeat as it seems to have done since 1945 for the US for instance and we had to

42:27realize this there are no near peers anymore there are only peers and the hoothies have proved this so thanks for listening this is bill and again if you wish to get in touch with me you can get in touch with me at cgpodcast at pm.me that is cgpodcast at pm.me you can go to my sub stack would love to hear your remarks on this in the posted audio feed that's on there for this podcast you can find this podcast on the the modality of your choice spotify apple whatever it may be I appreciate a starter views for five is preferable of course and a narrative reviews I am forever in your debt and for those of you who become paid subscribers you will reserve receive an occasional micro burst from me which is a like a 20 25 minute podcast that I do on a topic of the

43:30moment that either animates my audience or myself you'll have DM access to me and we even have a signal chat room where we can talk about things that are happening around the planet so I wanted to thank you for your solicitation for your listenership please mention to friends family and colleagues who you think may be interested in this arcane and esoteric subject and again I'll be at Arcada in November in Bozeman Montana I'll have the site and the show notes and look forward to seeing you there this is bill out