Ep 316 - Kate Gladdin | Resilience Is Not Bouncing Back

0:00Coming up in this episode. I'm never going to say him again, not in this form, not in this life. But how can I keep the best parts of her alive with me rather than letting the best parts of me die with her? You've got to find a way to integrate the laws into who you want to become from this, because you never will be the same again. What's up everybody? Welcome back to Here For The Truth. I'm Joel Rafidi, Kamako Host, Erasmus. With me, as always, we're going to keep this intro pretty brief. We have Kate Gladden joining us. For those of you who have been with us for a long time, you know, that we really like to, you know, dive into people's stories and all spectrums of, you know, people's stories and journeys and the things that we experience in life that really make us human at the end of the day.

1:01And the cracks that lead to beautiful openings and to be able to share a conversation with such a beautiful human being like we do right here, we're Kate. It's just an absolute honor and a privilege. And I think her story is going to impact you, you know, there's no doubt about that. So take a listen, grab some tissues potentially. Maybe I should have before this episode, but here is Kate. Hey, Gladden is an international keynote speaker, best-selling author and coach, who has spent more than a decade studying what it truly takes to be resilient when life derails the plan, named one of Australia's 100 women of influence. She has shared her message with more than 300,000 people around the world. She's the author of, okay, now what? And host of the podcast by the same name. Listen through in more than 50 countries. During from psychology, human behavior and her own experiences with profound loss, Kate's work challenges the idea that resilience is about finding the positive and difficult

2:04circumstances. Instead, she teaches people how to reclaim their agency and create something meaningful in response to what they cannot control. Originally from Sydney, Australia, Kate now lives in Wyoming with her husband and that's true for babies, Jacque and George. Hey, it's welcome to here for the truth. Thank you. Sorry, my husband, having me. I love this mix. Some Aussies, some Americans, best of both worlds. Sorry. I love it. Real quickly. Real quickly. Is there any way you could just put your camera up just a little bit? Because I feel like you're having a little stuff. Sorry, yeah, let me do that. That's right. There we go. Actually, it's probably easier if I... Scoot down, too. Is that better? Yeah, that's better. Yeah, that's better. Okay, it's also weird. I need to get a different height microphone because I'm kind of going to be up for this one. And then I'm sorry. And no worries, no worries. I get it. I think I had to say the exact issue with one of my mic stints. And I had to send it back because it was too tall. I probably should have with this one. I was like, I'll make it work. And then... You're good. No, yeah, here we are. It's second. I'm glad that's resolved now. You're usmos. You're okay to proceed, though.

3:06Yeah, yeah, I'm okay. I like to see people's whole heads. No, I'm just half my forehead. Yeah. One way we always like to kick off these conversations is we kind of want to dive deep into your personal, your own journey. Some of your major are rights of passage, the most catalyzing moments in your life. That kind of led you down the path that you're on now. So kind of wherever you feel called to begin, we hear for that. Oh, wow. Opening just the can of worms from the get-go. I mean, really the defining moment of my life takes me back to 3.37 AM on October 20th 2012. Because I grew up on the beaches of Sydney, Australia. You know, great family, youngest of three. You know, we had a good life. And I thought I could see the path ahead. I was just about to graduate uni and got a corporate position. And to be honest, I kind of lacked a sense of direction. I chose a corporate role because you could wear a pencil skirt and cute heels

4:07and look important. So it was kind of, you know, like so many people, you think, as especially as you're transitioning out of like college, like, okay, this is my game plan. This is what I'm going to try and work towards. And then I can still hear that vibration of this, like in the middle of the night. And I flipped over my phone and it said 3.37 AM. But more than that, it said it was my mom. And you know, when your mom's calling you at 3.30 in the morning, it's not not for good news. And that's when my mom just, her panicked voice telling me, you know, sister's been in a serious motorbike crash. And I was just like, wait, what? And see, my sister was on holidays in Thailand at the time. And I just seen her post up on Facebook, that she was having like the best time ever. And so I was like, what do you mean on a motorbike? I couldn't even wrap my head around the fact that she got on one because she wouldn't have been in Australia. But next year, no, mom was just telling me, pray to God, she survives. And it was those words where it dawned on me for the first time.

5:10Like, okay, this is serious. And I went and watched the sunrise. And you know, at the time, I thought it was a sign she was going to be okay. And so I held onto that and came back in. And then I got the phone call at 7.33 AM that, you know, my mom just screamed, she's dead. And I still feel just falling out of my car. Thank God I wasn't driving at the time. And just realizing that our lives had chatted forever in a way that we never could have imagined. Because my sister, she was my big sister. We grew up doing everything together. We shared a room up at Tuesday. She was 24 when she passed. And she'd still climb into my bed some nights to get out of the dark. So she was just the one person that was always there for me. Full of life. Your beautiful wife, Alyssa, had a chance to dance with her. And she knows all about my sister's big smile. And it's like how does someone with so much life and promise, be stolen from us in an instant. And we have video footage that shows what happened.

6:14And you know, that would just hang into the driveway of their hotel when a rider came speeding up along the wrong side of the road and slammed into them. And yeah, just like that, that's really the beginning of where I am today that life-shattering moment. First of all, obviously my heart goes out to you. Thanks for sharing that. Like, whoa, how was it for you and your mother and your family for like the after effects? Like that way. Yeah. It's honestly a bit of a blur. Like when I look back now and try to remember, it was also so fast because it happened overseas. Mum and dad, like within moments I got to their house, you know, as quickly as I could once I got the news. But they're already hugging me saying, we've got to leave, we've got to say goodbye. And like, letting go of my mum at that moment was like the hardest thing I've ever had to do because I needed it more than ever. But I knew that my sister, you know, needed her more. And you know, people rallied around us.

7:16I have to say the support and the outpouring. I think when you lose someone so young and so tragically, it does really bring the community and send shockwaves through it. But I look back and I'm pretty, I'm just so proud of our family. And very quickly, we knew that Nicole wouldn't want us to fight the old. And by that I mean, there was no justice in Thailand. They were trying to get us to pay money and blame Nicole. And it was just like horrific what my family had to go through that week just trying to bring Nicole because her boyfriend was driving at the time. And they were trying to blame it on him and all of this stuff. There was just no justice and it was really tempting to just, you know, want to go back and scream and fight that. But we knew she'd want us to build the new. And so that's when we actually looked around and our house was turning into like a florist of just flowers and everything which was beautiful. But we knew that I would die in a few days or a few weeks and we wanted to create something meaningful that would last beyond just Nicole. And so very quickly by the time we had her memorial,

8:18we created the Nicole Fitzheimance Foundation. And looking back now again, I stand by the fact it's not just looking for positives and what you're going through. It's actually leaning into problems and what can you contribute to a situation to create purpose in it. That really gets your feet on the ground each morning even when your heart's in pieces, your body's aching and you're like, I don't know if I can face the day. When you have a reason why I like that to keep going. For me personally has been, it's gotten me where I am today. Yeah. Yeah. So like, what is, I can't even like begin to like put myself in like that situation of receiving like a phone call like that out of a sudden, you know, not even like for a parent, someone older, maybe it's a little bit more expected but like a sibling at that age. Are you able to like maybe like share a little bit about the internal experience of like processing

9:20such a profound grief and sudden shock and something as impactful as that and kind of like what that happened? What happens inside you like during that process? Well, at first I just remember like I couldn't even breathe like breathing her like it's just like the word I just like whiplash is just what has just happened. Like this isn't you feel like you're in an altered reality for a long time and you know, it's an interesting thing. I remember one, because I'm trying to think that morning because our house was already full of people and in a way I appreciated that and the other way I just wanted to scream until I'm to all get out and I just wanted to, you know, scream myself and let it all out. But I remember sitting on my bed and one of my first thoughts was, oh my gosh, one day, I'm going to be 80 years old and say it's been 60 years since I've seen my sister. It was just a very strange like wow, like, because at this point it could have been, I think she'd been going like a week so it's seven days, which is like, is that really going to be my reality?

10:20And it's, it is hard and it's some, you know, there's still moments where I go to, you know, you want to run to her and tell her or the news or the boy news or the drama. Like that's just like you share everything like that with it. So it has, it was really daunting to comprehend the idea of having a world without my sister in it. But I quickly realized that I get to say how much I bring my sister back into the world with me. How much I continued to talk about her, share her photo, share her memories. And through her foundation, like the big part of it was like my sister, incredible dancer and ballerina and dance in Japan and over in New Zealand Ballet. She hated seeing talented people help back from pursuing their dreams because of the financial struggles. So that's why we've given over $300,000 in grants over the last 14 years to underprivileged performers and athletes going through their own adversity that need that extra support. And so for me, I had to accept, and that's the hardest part is the acceptance of like,

11:21I'm never going to say them again, not in this form, not in this life anyway. But how can I keep the best parts of her alive with me rather than letting the best parts of me die with her? And that's just trying to find that balance and integration. And so it's, if it's still ugly and shocking at times and I still get upset of like, I've lived now 10 years longer than my sister ever got to live. And I stand by that's just so unfair. And that honestly, there was guilt. Like I told my sister, hey, I just being a Thailand and said, Thailand was pretty cool. Why don't you go to Thailand? And so you want to like, there's the blame, there's the guilt, there's she was so much more full of life than I was, why not me? And so you wrestle with with all of it. But eventually you realize you've got to find a way to, to integrate the laws into who you want to become from this because you never will be the same again.

12:22Like what did you observe? You know, when you say like, oh, it's not just about, you know, like finding like the positive. Like do you find that like people in tragic moments like that, like sensor deflects, maybe like fine, demeaning too quickly or like, you know, just find the lights too quickly. Like what was your observation in like coming up with how you, I guess you perceive, you know, extreme losses like this now. But people talk about the different stages of grief and stuff. And then so I'm curious, you're at least back with what Joel said. Yeah, I mean, there's definitely different phases in the stages. I don't think it goes as linear or in the exact order as maybe some of the research says, at least in my opinion. And I think people are so well intended when they come to you trying to ask you to find a silver lining or look for the blessing. And so I've really tried to not be in judgment of it, but just better educate people.

13:23And that often sometimes mean expressing where I'm at. And the support I kind of need. And I think sometimes when people go through tragedy, loss, sudden change, they almost feel the pressure to get to the positive place. But I actually think if we jump there too quickly, we're kind of buffering out the experience of like the lessons we're meant to learn from this or the problems we're meant to find where we're supposed to step up and be the good thing that happens to the situation. And I think this past, I think it's 15 months now, has taught me this kind of more than anything. And I can go into that another layer of tragedy, but this time also mixed in with even more trauma for me that has really made me like dig deep and really think what is resilient truly about. Because my sister's loss was tragic and sudden, but I was quite far removed from it in Australia.

14:24And I was 20 years old and still at home with my parents. And so, you know, I had that community right around me. And I, you know, I quit my corporate job and took on her charity full time. And just it took me on such an adventure. It's why I ended up here in the US. It's why it's how I met my husband now. My American husband, and while we're in DC, it was through my sister's foundation and a mutual friend there. And our family had just spent like the last 13 years or so really healing and coming together to create as much beauty and meaning and purpose from losing Nicole and keeping her alive in our life. And last May, mom and dad had come to visit me in Sheridan, Wyoming, where I lived now. They'd just done a cruise in Alaska. And they'll live in their best life again. And I felt there was a joy in my mom's eyes. There was a spark like we went for a walk, we went laughing. And there was a rainbow out. And it just, it felt like this is what they were talking about with post-traumatic growth.

15:24There's this shattered vase theory of, you know, if you've got this precious vase, it means everything to you. And someone suddenly knocks it off the shelf. And it's in hundreds of pieces. Those who are least resilient in life are like, what? It's tempting to do with the vase. And that's to want to piece it back together exactly how it was. But it'll never be the same. There's going to be gaps and broken shards. And it's just going to be a more fragile vase. And so those who are most resilient, they ask a different question, rather than how can I recreate and go back to what was. It's, what can I create from this given these pieces and where I'm at right now? Do you want to make a bowl or, you know, some sort of ceramic, something else? And that's what I felt like our family really did. We found a different way to bring Nicole and keep her living with us. And so I felt so proud. And it just, our husband, sorry, my husband and I had moved to like our dream little spot by the mountains. And I just felt like if we were all breathing easier, finally. And then on May 28th, last year, in 2025,

16:31I had a meeting downtown of Boss Babes meeting of women, business owners. And I was heading to town and I was like, you know what? I'll just come in. I'll go for a walk, my grubs and lunch or something. I was like, sure. So if we went, I spent a 20 minute drive into town and we were chatting away and that mum called dad, you know, get the beef out for dinner. And when we, when we parked, I said, all right, me back, let's me back at the car at 1 p.m. Um, the last thing I did before I said goodbye to I was showing her how to put the harness on my dog, J.Q. And it was just such a, you know, every day, moment, see back at the car. And I got back to the car. I think it was like about one, one, oh, nine or so. I'm not as punctual as my, as my mum, I was a bit late. But as soon as I turned the corner and saw she wasn't by the car, I immediately, I'm like, something's, something's not right here. Mum's always punctual. So I called her far in a few times and that was

17:31no answer. And so I just immediately got this wave of, you just get that hot feeling and you like something, this not right. And I called dad and I like, she left her phone at home. He's like, no, and I was like, wait, she has a phone, she called you. So I just start like racing back up the street. And then I turned the corner from where I was the opposite way. And I just, that's when I just saw the road was closed. It was lights flashing. ambulance chaos everywhere. And I, my mind just screamed like this can't be happening again. Thankfully, a friend had just walked out and met her a couple of times. She walked out where at the office I was in. She just saw me shaking. She just took me by the hand and walked me down to the corner. And yeah, that's when the police had her, my mum's handbag and it's set in. And then they're just like, you need a, you need to get to the hospital. It was like when Nicole was hit, I remember hoping that she just had a bump on her head

18:31because she was kind of clumsy sometimes. And I was thinking, mum's just like broken a hip or something. And then he's like, she's, she's unresponsive. And so my friend just picked me up through, you know, through me into her car, got me up there. And then before I knew it, you know, the doctor's racing and we did everything we could. He just said her injuries were just too severe and he grabbed the back of the head. And that's when I just screamed like, that's exactly how my sister died. On the back of the head injury, on a foreign road, like careless driver, I was just like, how does this, how does this happen twice? So that has felt like life took this beautiful mosaic that our family had spent the last decade putting together and it just went and shattered it all over again. In the town where my husband and I had moved to find peace, suddenly we're in the middle of hell. So, what the fuck?

19:32Yeah. Yeah, it's pain. I'm going to be a lot. Yeah. I mean, really there are there aren't words excepts. Like, yeah, that's like what Joel said with the block. Like what the fuck had you had you navigate that? Obviously you are navigating it. It's like how do you deal with the why? How do you deal with the why? And the anger and the anger that comes up like, like, yeah, well, I can feel it. I'm assuming there's anger too, you know, that plays in and how do you navigate that? And people have weird relationships with anger and there's a lot of repression sometimes. So, yeah. Because it's hard to like not hear that story and then put myself in your situation, you know, and try to like feel into what that's exactly like, you know, and to have it happen in a similar way. Like that's a weird extra cosmic. I don't know. I don't know. Like you're like, what?

20:32Oh, and that's that was the coolest part I think of it all. It's just how similar and like part of the whole foundation like. So, when we when I talk about problems, help you find purpose, like what really got me going up to Nicole Dine was realizing we're losing in Australian and Thailand every two to three days. And I was like, that's not okay. Too many Aussies are taking risks out these days. I'm going to share my sister's story, try and save her life in her honor. My mom really took that on. Like we were all about travel safety and being safe and cautious because my sister never would have gotten on a bike without a helmet in Australia. Like don't go doing it overseas. Not to blame her, but to help someone make a better choice in her honor. That's what she'd want. But then when my beautiful mom, like we have it on, we have that on video also is, she literally, she's waiting at the corner, she presses the button, she waits, she presses the button again. She gets the walk signal, she goes, she's into the crosswalk when a driver just doesn't care to look and

21:36you know, my dad and I, dad wanted to visit the scene afterwards. And I can't explain the amount of blood there was. And watching my dad just crying over it and then having to pull him away because I was trying to do the investigation. But the worst part in all of that was in two days later, we get to the police station. And they're telling us at most the charge is a misdemeanor. What? There's still like vehicular romance, slaughter. Well, there is, but in my room, you're being the, it's, and so, and that's where again, I'm finding a problem to turn it into purpose, but it's, so yeah, it's, there's vehicular homicide in Wyoming and then there's reckless vehicular homicide. Rackless, you'd have to be under the influence at the time of the crash or driving in such a way that the prosecutor said to us, he would have had to be doing 100 miles on the wrong side of the road down Main Street because of this word conscious disregard for safety and the

22:39definition of reckless means you have to prove his state of mind. It very rarely gets actually successfully prosecuted. So we're looking at, yeah, it was a misdemeanor, but on top of that, he was on probation just five weeks before he killed my mom. They gave him probation for domestic battery, innovating police. And then before that, he was still already on a probation for a DUI. But yeah, he's criminal record spans about 10 plus years of all the different crimes under the sun. And you hear, so it's one thing, like I don't think Wyoming's only one of five states where homicide can be a misdemeanor. So there's also criminally negligent homicide and then there's homicide by vehicle on there, both misdemeanors. So part of my work over the last eight months, I've testified a few times and the Capitol and to the Joint Judiciary Committee is to look at adding aggravated factors. So we can make deaths like my mother's and deaths with pedestrians doing everything right, crossing safely at a crosswalk to not be blamed for the death and so

23:43to what you were, you know, you should have looked or whatever. It's like, there comes a point at which the responsibility has to go back on the driver. You're taking someone's loved one, someone's everything, someone's world. And I think we're getting more and more distracted driving. There's more dings and whistles and touch screens and everything going on. I'm like, when either tell drivers is going to be consequences for distracted driving. And you know, at first, I thought it might have been, it was a, it's at the edge of a high school like street. And I thought it maybe it's a high school care. And I'm not going to try and ruin his life for that. Like maybe there's education we want to do or something. But when you hear it to drive a leg that and the lady who ran to save my, I met with her and thanked her and she just told me she held her and was speaking to her and she's like, when I told the driver, look, she's not going to make it. His response was, what's going to happen to me. And it's like, that just says everything right about, some drivers on the road

24:44and why we need more accountability and actions have to have more consequences at certain times. Ben, the mixed specs of fuel. Bill of this day, please, you know. Yeah, it's, I think the worst part was, I mean, there's so many layers to it and I don't know how deep you want me to go on all the intricacies. But it's, I mean, I will go back to like the early days before we even discovered much about the drive or anything because you're not, what if first happens, you don't even think you're just like, oh my god, my beautiful mom like and yeah, so I was, but I didn't quite remember it because it was so traumatic. But my husband said,

25:45I just started screaming, oh my god, I've killed my mom, I've killed my mom because if I just hadn't gone into town that day. And that is something that there's no putting a pretty bow on that. I think that will haunt me for the rest of my life. And that's something that I've got to, I don't ever want to ever make peace with that. But I have to also realize if I let that thought consume me and that focus consume me, she's going to die away too. And so I just, I have to hold space for those moments where I will go there and I'll, you know, ugly cry in my bed and let it all out. And then I'm like, but mom, I know what she'd tell me. And I have to also respect her agency if she wanted to be there. She wanted to go on that drive with me. So, both can be true, I think, withholding that. But I mean, I don't understand how someone could do that. Like, I was so far removed from the actual action of this guy that he still went into, you know, court and was like,

26:47not guilty. And I'm like, so we went here to start the trial preparation. And at first, we're like, you know, full 12 months, $2,000 fine. Like, that's the maximum, right? But as you actually look into a vehicular homicide cases, they can be hard to get a successful conviction on because well, firstly, they're frustrating anything for us is, you know, the jury can't know anything about his history or anything. So a lot of drivers sit there and cry and say, sorry, they are and haven't you almost not looked one or something. And then next year, you know, the jury's sympathizing with them and off they walk. And so as it got closer and we're here, it just got to a point where my dad's like, I cannot stomach him getting away with not guilty and taking no responsibility for it. And we were told, if you take a plea to a certain amount, you can put it in front of the judge. And I thought, well, this judge letting walk five weeks early, surely, she's going to be like, all right, this is some accountability. So we said, you know, at the end,

27:50landed 60 days. We weren't happy about it. But it did mean we did not have to sit there and let the defense pick apart my mother's death. And you know, they had me in the report saying I said my mom was very lame. I'm like, what? Firstly, I don't even use that word lame. I'm not from 1965, but it was just I would never say that about my mother. And then I spoke to the police. He's like, oh, yeah, they just confused it. Like they plant things a little like say things to plant confusion for the jury. So they can't know for sure. And it's you just like, this whole thing is sort of like, it seems so straight. It's like, I mean, so convoluted. Like the legal system, there, it's like the justice system legal system obviously has its flaws. Like, and I just want to share a personal story that relates. I was living in New York City and I witnessed someone going the crosswalk and a FedEx truck just came in and hit the person. Now the person didn't die.

28:50But I was like, oh, good Samaritan. Cop shows up. Hey, I'd like to let you know exactly what happened and be a witness. I had lawyers on me. I got to pose multiple times. They tried to make it seem like I was drinking and high the night before they I went through all this questioning where I go. Fuck that. I don't want to be a witness ever again. Like it makes not even want to do that because they're literally going into your history in your past trying to get you to make you seem like you're an idiot. All because you happen to be there. Witness this horrible thing of a FedEx driver not paying attention to the walk signal or the fact that someone was in the middle of the road. Yeah. And like, are you serious? It's ridiculous. No, and that's what we just, it's all a nightmare. Like, no matter what, there was no nothing, you know, and he's the thing. He was like, nothing brings you mom back. I'm like, well, thank you, Captain Mobius. It's very real to us every minute of every day. But there is a certain level of which you can show my mother's life some dignity and some respect and recognize what has been ripped from our family and shattered us forever.

29:53But the whole idea of a trial like, so we ended up doing sentence and that was four hours long because the prosecutor had to kind of explain what happened. And thank God we had video of it or they would have made up some story of something I don't know. But I could already tell that defense then came back trying to do all these math equations, not how he couldn't have seen mom. But they never really did it from the place he actually stopped. Anyway, it went on and on and then he annexed, you know, he's crooked out he is coming down and the judge is like, you know what? This is a tragedy for everyone. And I just wanted to like scoop, breathe. I'm like, this is, this is not a, that's, you know, there's only one victim in this story. It's my beautiful mother and she can't speak right now. And the hardest part, again, I'm learning more about the legal system than I ever wanted to, especially here in the, in the US, I never thought it'd be something I'd become so passionate about. And obviously it's different state by state, but in Wyoming, you're only considered a victim,

30:54like only felonies or really crimes. And so we didn't have full victims rights to just stand up at the sentencing and share our thoughts and feelings we had to be entered in as witnesses. So next thing, you know, you're trying to talk and the defenses like objecting, they cross examine my dad, like, I'm like, how are we talking about a homicide here? Someone has died. We're not just upset because someone ran over my mailbox like. And so that's another thing I'm trying to look at changing the law. So I mean, ideally I would like to see and we're starting to move the needle forward in the right direction, but potentially even having homicide removed as a misdemeanor and put us like a like negligent death becomes like a local class felony to show some accountability because when you're, you literally atroomatize forever by what you see and you know, imagining what your loved one goes through and for me knowing I was five houses away where my mom was laying dead, like dying on a road. And I,

32:00you know, that's the part where I just want to rip my skin off some days and be like universe, how twisted and cruel can this story be? I'm feeling a helplessness, you know, really, you can't be there and help and protect and I mean, I just, I don't know like in my mind and like, it's a little bit like my sister trying to save a shred of innocence for me, like I didn't see mom there because that I think would have really taken my PTSD to another level, but then at the same time I feel so I began the guilt is just, it's you alive some days, but how, how's your dad doing? Ah, dad, yeah, he's, um, he's definitely the strongest person I know. He's, he's, he'd know, like we kind of know at the end of the day after like, because we've lost Nicole and our mom, it's like, you have to keep living, but you know, it doesn't mean that you'll

33:01forget it. Like I think that's the hardest part is, you know, we still talk about mom a lot, our whole house now is all dads like favorite photos of mom big canvases, integrating her into the home as much as we can because she was the queen of the kitchen and loved, you know, entertaining. And I think that like, when I look back now, I'm like, it's so messed up, like we knew what to do after mom died to bring a body back home. We knew who to call how the travel insurance, I'm like, this is not something a family should like, because we already had to do it in the call. I'm like, what the, we had to call all the family members again and just hear like the, so it's, he was just so stowick, but in the right balance of stowick, like still felt it, but yeah, he's, um, he's definitely my inspiration. We talk every single day now and we're closer than, closer than ever, but I mean, I hate it for him. He's flown now both his daughter and his wife, poem dead from overseas. So, yeah.

34:04Before, um, you said, I know what my mom would say to me, you know, well, what would she tell you in terms of like how to proceed from that? I think she'd say now, go keep living for the three of us, because I always used to say I'm living for the two of us when it came to Nicole and I, um, but I also, you know, I heard a bit around Christmas time, mom died in May, and leading up to Christmas, I went home for the first Christmas without mom and people, I started hearing a little bit like, oh, they just want you to be happy. And I paused on that and I go, no, you know what? My mom would want me to be healing. And she's already lived through grief once. She knows that sometimes the hardest lift of your whole day is to get your feet up onto the ground out of bed. She knows some days she's got to pull the curtains down, have a cry. Like, she

35:09knows how ugly, messy, hard healing could be. She wouldn't want me to like force the smile on because I know she hated that more than anything when her friends wouldn't allow her space to be a grieving mother. And so I know she'd also say allow space to be, um, yeah, grieving daughter and give yourself compassion and kindness. And, um, yeah, I have this, I also have this rock. It's a little, I guess, memorial that I have. I call it Mum's Garden because she was going to go, she told me that day before we went to town that my garden bed was looking a little atrocious few too many weeks. She wanted to plant a garden there. So it was so beautiful after I got back from Australia after Mum's funeral. My friends came and we planted Mum's Garden and, um, we put this memorial rock in and I, it's got, it tributes my Mum and sister, but I didn't want anything to sad or heavy when I looked at it. So back in like 2020, I actually had Mum on my podcast show. And she was a little interviewer for my 100th episode. And, um, I told her what would you tell,

36:13you know, the younger people or like people just needing, like, some words of advice to get the most out of life. And she just said, always give your best. Don't give up. Do it with passion. So now I have those words about rock every day that I go out and I just, I already know, like, that's what she'd be telling me. Um, and it's, it's weird at first. I was worried, I've lived so long for my sister. Now I'm like trying to hold space to grieve them both. So some like, you know, post up about missing Mum. I'm like, oh, but I missed no guilt. And I just have to like know that one doesn't take away from the other. And, um, I actually got Mum's heartbeat. I don't know if you can see tattooed. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Of my wrist there. Um, because in the hospital, the nurse came in and she's like, do you want to see your Mum? And I'm like, I don't know. Do I want like, I know she's got a head injury. Like I, I'm not good with blood. And I don't think Mum would want me to see her that way. And she's like, look, I'll go in and

37:16imagine it was my Mum. And then I'll come back and tell you if I think you want to see her. Um, so she came back in and she, uh, she looked at me and she goes, I think you hold on just to your final memory with your Mum. Um, um, there. She placed this in my hand. And it's Mum's final few heartbeats. Um, so I took that and on the, um, my sister's anniversary of her death is on the 20th of October and Mum's birthday is on the 25th of October. So that first week of surviving the first year of having agreed my sister without my Mum and my Mum's first birthday. I got got the tattoo on her birthday and um, yeah, reminds me not to waste any heartbeats, but also, you know, my reason why my heartbeats now is for the two of them too.

38:16Man, this is, yeah. What is, how do you relate to the divine after all these? I love that you asked. That's really interesting. Um, so I have seen like I've met with some spiritual like, crutches and different things like that. Um, to be honest, some days it's two fingers up at the end. Like not, I, why, why? Um, um, and there's things I've been told and I sometimes I'm like, but why me? I feel like I was the weakest one, but like little things like, um, I always love to speak from like a young age. I'm like, I want to be a speaker like the, to me, the power of the voice and to express yourself and to move and connect with people has always been something I've loved. Like I felt this calling to

39:20and then, you know, I've met with like some coaches and people and they're like even given where both your mom and sister's injury was. It's like right there where your voice and I feel a lot in here about like there. So it's, to me, it's something of like, when my sister died, I pictured her like me passing me the button at like in a relay trying to just tell me like, keep going and living for the two of us now. And I almost feel like it, it is the same with, with mom and Nicole and, you know, I heard the other day like this is how much I really believe like energy never dies. Like I hate that they're, this life they had on earth died so tragically and I would do anything I could to undo it, but I can't, but I really do believe that, um, love never dies. Energy never dies. And someone said to me the other day, would you like, what if we could live forever? And I was like, oh no, that sounds terrible. I got my mom and sister to go find on the other side. I was like, I really do want to reconnect with them one day and I do believe that I, that I will.

40:28But I, I don't know, I, I, I have to let life humble me sometimes and try to say there is more, more to this, but we're also have a biological human body and brain that means healing and processing and I'm not like just totally in the real world I would say because I think the visceral memories and trauma and, um, you know, I'm choosing to stay and live in the town. I, even just this past week I was on the corner where mom was hit part of a pedestrian safety order to try and make that corner safer and give drivers more accountability and warning to remember to look for pedestrians and I am not naive. I know that there's going to be drivers that don't care about them. So anyone else but themselves on the road. But that's, that's my healing is to move

41:32towards to rewrite some of the stories. I even went back to the emergency room and thanked the nurse who gave me that mom's heartbeat and it was so powerful to go back and I smiled at the place where my world shatted and I was like I, I don't get to write every detail of my life but I am co-writing this story and I get say over this and I want to like the community. We now have a scholarship at Sheridan's College for a performing artist in my mother's name to continue her legacy of generosity and my town came together and we did a pedestrian awareness month and people feel and remember her hair and I think if I was to move it would feel even wider to be somewhere where I don't have any moments with mom or things I could hear her say at that point and maybe maybe this was her saying I'm going to be right here with you always at the place you love most. So at least I'll listen to you and it's like I've been through nothing.

42:37No but like relatively speaking and which I think it's also why it's hitting hitting you so deeply in that way I think it's my thought you know because it's so real it feels like you have such a connection to siblings and parents and you know to lose these people in your life like it's I mean it's a shattering I mean there's no other way to say it than a shattering when someone goes before like they quote unquote should go you know it's one thing when someone who's 90 years old passes away they've lived a full life but you know a 24 year old sister and then a mother like it's something that people should quote unquote like no one no one wishes to have this experience it's just something that life brings you and yeah what you know yeah and you know I know I've thought that our family had ticked the tragedy box like oh you know we've already paid our dues when it comes to having to deal with the unthinkable and I just you know even just the other day

43:40I just came out of my office crying and it's like what's you know I'm like it's just sad my mom deserves so much better than her beautiful face and hit like I just hate it that's how it ended she that's the thing I know we're all gonna eventually lose our parents and love ones at some point and and I think the other thing I've went in the early weeks after it happened and I can imagine that maybe this happens with some people would agree like I lost my sister suddenly unless my mom suddenly there is no one I love in the world more than my husband and I became so scared like part of me just wanted to like shut off and stop loving him because I can't even fathom like now having lived through it and know just how much it rips at the being of who you are it I almost wanted to like recluse away and try and save myself from that pain but you know you can't you can't do that like there's no when you love someone you love someone and I just have to know at the end of the day loves what makes it all all worth it but it is it's a real thing and it's so cliche but if anything

44:48Joel just keep loving your family and everyone in your life is deeply as you can that's all I ask like from hearing my story is you know something we talk about so often on this podcast and it it has had a huge impact on me and I feel like I bring it up all the time because I think it's so powerful was the phrase memento more a remember you will die like we're all gonna die we don't leave this but when we face this when we experience someone close to us passing like it needs to be the reminder that every breath every moment is precious you know so when you spend it with the people you love because you have no idea what can happen around the corner like five minutes later and so and you've experienced that on multiple occasions and it's like like I mentioned earlier I we move my mom out here after my dad passed away and he lived a very long full life but like I literally can't help but I hug my mom for like an extra minute I like smell her like I just like because

45:52it's like it's what exactly what you said to Joel it's like you just have to relish and embrace the moments and and and not take people for granted and I just feel like we live in this world where many of us think like okay the other day is gonna come yeah we don't have those conversations so we don't spend time with certain people because we we think we'll have another week or what we'll see them next month and the reality is that nothing that's not promise to us it's so so true I remember even right before Nicole died I nearly didn't go to her 24th birthday because I was still like uni and stressed about exams and I don't know we got in like this little fight and I was like I'm not gonna go anyway thank God I got over my ego there and and went along because I got one of our favorite final photos is the one that sits up there but that was such a wake up call for me wow I was so close and not nearly going to my sister's last birthday and you know I I love it that um I did go home for mum's birthday in 2024 so thank you for doing that um and what's crazy is

46:58on my final night in my childhood home with my mum on 2020 in 2024 there was like this huge giant rainbow um over our house and then my last photo that I ever got with mum this one here um we were under a rainbow but this was at my house in Sheridan Wyoming and so I do think and people who've lost some and I don't know for you if you found like little signs or whatever but I've had rainbow show up at like the most beautiful powerful times even the anniversary the day before the one year of losing mum I was sitting in my office and the wind just started stirring up and I just like fell to in my soul I picked myself up I walked outside I couldn't see it but I turned looked up and it was just this rainbow on like the day before we lost her right in this way where I was in the middle of something and then I just felt the felt the calling so I do think um if you open your heart to it it's just you've just got to learn how to love them beyond what the eye can see and beyond

48:01what word can communicate and so I really feel like I'm very much more in my body and my soul than I used to be um I was very materialistic and uptight and anxious and all that before I lost my sister and I tried to keep that you know those lessons going through um losing the call but it's definitely like I've doubled down on that yet again um through through losing um mum is to make the most of my time here with people but also keep my heart open to like what snacks because I really think there's something more yeah I feel like you've been kind of answering this question throughout this conversation simply by being who you are but I guess like what is resilience to you to me I mean there's the official what you'll never hear me say I'll say resilience is not bouncing back because we're not bouncy balls or elastic bands and all the time there is no going back to me to be resilient really is to stay into stay in the power of your response to choose your

49:09response um and to respond from your values and and who you want to be to help you create what comes next um it doesn't mean you don't go through the initial post-traumatic stress and struggle um that's a part of being human I just like to say like at some point we're all going to be victims to someone's actions like my mother was definitely a victim to that drive his action and as a result our family were victims and felt very real pain and trauma and we will for the rest of our lives but there's a difference between being a victim and living in victimhood one is just like somewhere life's going to throw you and you're going to have to figure your way through it but then to me it's like victim hoods like your neighborhood like you set up shop there and you live life from there and you stay in blame and I think there's a difference between blaming the driver your responsible and you're to blame for taking my mother's life but I'm responsible for how this impacts my life in the big

50:10picture and that's the best news because I take my power back then of how I want to weave these tragedies into my life and so I think it's just to me resilience is all about tapping into that agency and not succumbing to the pressure to just look for the positives as I said I've said it a few times but really there is no good in you know my mother being run over by a driver who shouldn't have been on the road or my beautiful sister's life being cut short and I think it's actually quite an entitled approach to the world like oh life's just always going to hand us the good and what happened when really I think life is sometimes and I don't think it's negative to say it's a reality there's not always good in what happens but we can build a creator shape it into something good by how we respond and that often means if I if you look at all the trajectory of my entire career my entire life everything that's helped me heal and get to where I am today I continually look problems

51:14dead in the eye and go what can I do about that how can I contribute some sort of solution or progress to that for my sister it was around travel safety it was the grant giving for people that couldn't afford to go even when I've gotten to the world of resilience it was seeing people hurting and struggling with their own resilience and wanting to do something to help that now with my mom what's helped me channel all that anger and brother just trying to stuff it down is looking at the problem with like the Mr. Meena and pedestrian safety and drive distracted driving it's that's what's keeping me going is using problems and lessons and not just trying to smother them and you know fake smiles and yeah you've got to be willing to as they say feel it to to heal it so for me it's just that channeling and I think there's a quote you guys will probably love I heard it the other day and it just come to mind now which kind of I guess links in is really accepting I can't

52:18remember who quoted it so credit to whoever you are I think it's a psychologist from many years ago but it is one does not become fully human on a painlessly sounds like something young would say but oh I don't think it was like a role I think he said was role role on me role on me yeah but I love that idea like one does not become fully human painlessly yeah but like what did this come from for you because like a hundred thousand people could experience the same things that you did and they would crumble they'll be debilitated for life and live in that victimhood place so like where like where did it come from like for you initially it's like pull that thread and be like like no not mean yeah I think it's a little bit a little bit of anger and a lot of bit of love so I would say it was like the anger part and that was just like for the driver who

53:21took my sister's like like you've already taken her like I'm sure as hell not going to give you power over mine you do not get to you might have stolen her physically but watch me go and create something that lives on way beyond the time her feet last touch there so it's a little bit of like girl F you know this is not how it's going to end and then just so much of like love of like I I would see my sister smile and be like every day I get on this earth is another day she didn't so it's up to me to meet the most of it how dare I sit back and stay in that victimhood place when she'd give anything for another you know at the time I hug with my mama walk with our dog and so I think it's and it's also shit happens like it could happen to any of us and so who am I to sit back and pick them home like all this happened to me and my family as if it should have happened to someone else I think it's accepting like life is is hard but I then at the end of it I had to

54:29tragedy either way we all died the end of it so we might as well leave something meaningful with it and when you write a funeral speech when you're 20 years old for your sister it really changes a lot about what what matters and what people truly remember you remember you for and you know write down to our we went into my sister actually worked you'll know this Joel channel nine the footies show do you remember that yeah um she worked behind the scenes there at the time she went to become a sports journalist and there was a note at the um her telephone that the cleaner had left and he just said thank you for always being so kind and saying hello to me in the hallway and I said that that's the stuff that matters it's you know treating everyone like a someone and slowing down and not getting on the rat race of how many photos I have on my bank account I like to save you can count it by a number I can count I can tell you it won't count that much at the end of

55:34your life in a funeral speech you don't see many numbers listed um but you do hear stories of impact and connection and generosity and also courage I had people so many people walking away from my sister's funeral um even friends of mine that didn't know my sister that well yet going I've walked away inspired to live more and I was like yes that's the ultimate like to have lived your life in a way that when people read your eulogy and hear the stories they want to go and live more do you do you find that that's something that you receive often you've been out here you've been telling your story you have your foundation like is that the thing that people respond with like more often like especially if they've been through something similar and maybe they're not at the place you are and that you give them a little bit of hope or a little bit more courage yeah yeah I think a lot of people see themselves in my story and I invite them to because my story I'm not telling it for me I'm telling it so you can identify and empathize and

56:39feel because especially when you do go through um trauma and tragedy some people just you know it's too much for them to talk about and so I'm quite vulnerable in my podcast and keynote so I think it connects with them and then yeah it's the coolest thing like I've literally had um I was just texting her yesterday but like there's a lady um the beautiful woman at one of the conferences who'd lost her friend years ago and it always wanted to do something but kind of felt starker on shore and anyway this weekend she's launching that foundation for her friend because she heard my story and I've helped to figure it out and um that's what I love to do now really helping people build from what they've been through um rather than trying to sweep it under the rug or like stay stuck in a trying to recreate what was it's like okay what what next because there is so much healing um healing in that do you find that um issues with let's say the healing world the therapeutic world that what you're talking about here is that like you're taking your experience

57:43and you're focusing on action that very often it's like no let me just go sit every week and someone's chair and just talk about the same thing over and over again which I think can have its benefit at times but there has to be the action piece it can't just be like this happened and me I'm just healing I can't do the next thing until I heal this thing until I put it back together I have to put it back together then I can go on with my life and find a partner or a trade of business or do the next thing and it's like well um the healing comes with also with the doing sure there might be some stuff you have to do to support your like try this modality etc but like it just feels like there has to be movement yeah yeah no I that's like from it's I like to call it kind of just like channeling it into into yeah some sort of movement momentum um because otherwise it is it does not to eat us alive and we get anxious and overthinking and I'm very and that's why I try to be and not in a showy performative way but if I'm having a hard day and I'm that like

58:49like I'll see a rainbow and I'm just talking about like because people will see that vulnerability of like oh that's grieving daughter and then the next day they can see me on stage in the keynote in front of a few days you can do both and be both and have the whole experience we've did like you know I don't go on stage trying to bore my eyes that I always make sure and ground myself before I do like my actual keynotes but I think it's um it's both and I've I have gone to therapy after mum died particularly I was suffering nervous dysregulation shakes PTSD style symptoms so I did go for that and I did the is the EMDR and then that's the right yeah like kind of therapy to help with some of that healing so there's definitely a place for it but you eventually got to get to that point of like okay what now what literally now what like what am I gonna choose to do with

59:50this and trust me it's tempting sometimes people stay in quote unquote victim mode because they're trying to punish the person that did it to the like you know that idea of like oh but if I find joy again it's like I'm saying what happened was okay or that I'm a piece and it's like no it's not condemning I'm saying it was okay what happened it's just not letting what happened have a say over who you become and where it where it leads you and um yeah I think there's a lot of healing for people who can go through a hard thing and then whether it's to mentor someone I know people who made like jewelry from something certain thing it's um I really believe at our core as humans we are creators um we're not meant to spectate the world and sit back we're not we've been given you know a brilliant mind and two hands and feet for a reset and I think we've just got to look at the world like in my um talks I speak of mom used to take the most random ingredients

1:00:50because she was always working and wouldn't have much in the fridge and she'd just make the most delicious meal for us kids growing up and I you know I was like hey I do that I'm I can't just I know I just look at what there is and think what can I make from this and I think that I'm like that is so instinct in art and in cooking we just look at war war ingredients and think you know what can I can I make from this what could I create yeah and so eventually you've got to go through the messy healing and then you've got to ask yourself that that question um what could I make and going to build the thing that only you can build because of what you've lived um that's that's kind of how I view it as Frank or one said it's not so much what we expect from life but what life expects from us yeah a good friend Nash Nash Mackie another Aussie legend he says from the mess comes the message you see Aussie yeah as many but he's been in here a couple of times as well

1:01:56has he even better that's where my husband and I have somebody in love to move we have a go back to Australia I love Tasmania wow yeah I've never I don't have anything there but I've heard simple things uh for sure I don't just saw a appreciative of you and who you are and you're just the ultimate embodiment of so much of what we speak about and you know some of the ideas and the philosophies that really sit at the core of this podcast and and our work you know and just the strength in action and like I think what's made me most emotional like hit me the hardest is witnessing your strength and just witnessing the maturity of your soul because it's just it's honestly it's it's it's all it's real or inspiring just witnessing you communicate the way that you do right now even just year and so on from your mum's death like I don't think it's like just blown away for real and to be so real about it too as opposed to I'm just reporting this stuff that happened to me because you get that too you get people who can just like report the facts but like there's a

1:02:58human being here that has been through it that is you know that is like you said earlier it's like you can move through different states that's what integration is that's what wholeness is the fluidity to communicate to be sad one day and then be happy and to be okay and that's the that's the issue I have with with some of the people project on others like they're not grieving how they should be grieving you see that I feel like often in like the the people public figures that go through something as well and everyone's just like as their opinion like you're allowed to experience joy you're allowed to you know and experience sweetness and bliss even though you're going through such horrible things yeah we just it's the space for that and like I can feel joy and grief and and and for me now like it's and I'm still early days in like I know the grief journey because yeah you're right Joel's only been about a year and so I think I'm in some ways handling it better because I've gone through it before and in some ways it's a lot harder because yeah it's

1:04:01just like oh so so unfair but I um I have the playful side of me and all of that it's it's slowly coming back around but I will admit that it's I still I can be laughing and all of that and you might be able to relate to the loss of your dad but it's it's still there you still feel it like it's I don't know that my for me I don't know what it is but my chest and my solo plaque and through here I probably have never since the moment I heard mom has died I don't think I've ever fully been able to relax and so that I think I want to be able to say perhaps 10 years from now down the track like because it's kind of like where I said we were with my sister and then mom was suddenly killed I want to feel that little bit lighter through here again and I think that's just the healing that that that is to come but it still doesn't mean that I yeah can't be bad

1:05:05us on stage have a good laugh joke around and remember like I would still people we all die naked like let's not take ourselves too seriously here I've learned that the hard way I think we all tend to take ourselves too seriously and life not seriously enough like oh we've got to have it all together and then we don't take the fact that life is fragile gift that can be stolen from us at any moment so stop overthinking it you know be kind have fun and yeah like you said love on your loved ones as much as you can yeah it's interesting like yeah even like post tragedy like the judgments from other people like on how you shop on social media oh my god I can't believe she's like out doing that thing like two weeks after you know this thing happened or that thing happened it's like it's kind of crazy this fucking psychological tiptoe that someone in that position would have to make just to try appeased the crowd that attention yeah exactly yeah you gotta tease everyone and how they think should act it's like yeah it's like let's get the

1:06:08the two middle fingers up a shed like I'm just gonna live my life and yeah yeah I think it's it's hard and I do my best to not read too many comments or whatnot but I will say if every hater out there I've had some beautiful support through my social media community in fact some of the people it's interesting um was everyone rushes around you when it first happens oh I'm here if you need anything and then boom if you were excited they've disappeared but I've had some people that I haven't perhaps really met in person but they send the like how are you going really like messages and things like that that I'm not faking it on like I can be fine and have this conversation but when someone adds that really to the how are you part like gosh it feels so seen because you know like how am I really you know what I'm okay but a little tired didn't sleep great miss you know the hell out of my mom I watched the sunrise and cried today like having those um real conversations but yeah I mean I a few are into Nicole's foundation I had someone

1:07:11reach out online being like your sister visited me and told me that you need to let her go and move on it's too much and I'm like um here were you no I feel it in my soul what's right for me and my connection with my sister so there are always gonna oh dad said people thought we did it too soon after Nicole died we should have let her lay longer over before we did anything and even with this law change staff or the put like some people like have so oh it's just the way things are and you just need to move on yeah we got so many we got so many great quotes in this episode there's another one what is it opinions are like assholes everyone has one my dad says that all the time you know like and you hit the nail in the head like you got to sit with yourself and be with yourself and your heart and your truth yeah how you and then you live from that place okay yeah yeah and and what's someone thinks of how you're handling your grave tells me more about their relationship with grief yeah exactly yeah yeah so and you probably now I was gonna say you probably

1:08:19experienced like so many people you tell this story a lot or even in the beginning like how some people relate and how people can't even just be with you they just need to like say things because they're uncomfortable with silence like you probably experienced the whole range of different people and how they relate to grief or a tragedy and their own stuff and like dropping tissues in your face and you can't stop crying and be everything's gonna be okay and you're like just I'm allowed to have feelings just sit with me and shut up yes yes it's been a rollercoaster for sure but I have to say like there's been some gems that have come out and come around but they're often the ones that have gone through real shit themselves and for those who are kind of saying the naive things and because I've kind of not really lost someone or gone through trauma or tragedy before I try remember like look before I'd gone through all this I probably would have been one of those well intended yet naive person saying things that were kind of yeah a bit out of

1:09:23line or not so helpful so I try and be like just like me if I had to be you know had there upbringing and not gone through this and then I when people are like I don't know what to say though I'm like say that it's perfect when you say I don't know what to say I'm like oh thank God because whatever you're about to say probably wouldn't help anyway so at least with being real here when it's like hey I wanted to check in I'm not sure what to say I just wouldn't you know I'm thinking over you yeah yeah that just feels more real yeah and there is nothing to say very often like you just like yeah yeah well we're just like just for solutions and sometimes a situation just has this never fucking solution you know it doesn't like it's like I see you yeah I know you're going through something my heart breaks for you like call me I'm here just so you know I'm really here and then maybe check in again I'm really here just so you know like yeah I need to be where my husband's like he's been so incredible to to help like I think that's why I wanted to say I don't

1:10:31know how I would have cope without having a husband who's gone through things himself and really kind of understands the the grief and you know it's hard for him he's watched for a good couple months there I was a shell of myself and there was barely a day where I wasn't in a complete breakdown and I think it's been hard for him at times I learned a lot about grief and how vocal it actually is so like the tribes you know ancient tribes used to like really let it out and I find that so helpful to like scream and chant and like get all my grief out but I know for him he's like oh my gosh he's in the middle of a mill so he's kind of had to learn how to let me have those that time in space while balancing being there for me and also balancing his natural reaction as a husband to see that kind of violence happen to his mother-in-law what he's daughter he's wife shatter and not want to go do something about it and so I've had to talk him off the edge there too of like

1:11:32we're gonna settle this the right way because it's hard I think to for a male to not have that protective instinct so yeah well I know he and I were both thinking want to go kill them other folk other moment you said the truth yeah yeah it's definitely been moments yeah I'm like that doesn't so many things are the more problems come from that one day but I it's the yeah it's really hard the time special I mean again the be human and to have to navigate these different parts of us there's so much that's it I mean you know one moment oh I have compassion for this person because they have an experience what I've experienced then like just shut up just shut up shut the fuck up no you know so but it is that dance and how do we navigate how do we hold space in as conscious way as possible yeah sometimes not conscious sometimes we flip and flop and and we're like okay here's let me let me let me move through this let me see how I can experience

1:12:33this and hold this but I don't know I just like reality I like being human I these are the people I like to connect with I'm so grateful for your story for you being here and being real and sharing all of it because it's the truth I think a lot of times people are just like I can't share this aspect of me what are people going to think and like yes okay not everyone has lost their mother and their sister but people have dealt with things tragedy and it's like it's like we need more connection not more isolation we need to be with one another we need to share stories we need to sing together we need to use our voices and in the ways that you're talking about like that's there's power in that you know there's healing in that it's no we're not meant to be shut off we're not meant to not talk about this stuff yes yes and well thank you so much for the for the opportunity I when I saw the podcast was called here for the truth I was like yes that's that's what I'm I'm here for as well and I think if we can share it more real about all the the mess and

1:13:36the the fighting and like you know the the tall male the tall male that you go through in these moments like I think that also normalizes like oh no that's not you not coping some often that's you healing and coping and that is the process of it being messy and forever having to hold space for both and I just think it's typically on a spectrum for me some days are more towards like the the trauma side of the grief and the heaviness of it and other days are more towards the like integration and just like you know feeling a sunrise in a whole new way because it's so much more spiritual for me now and all of that but it goes back and forth and I think that's what people need to allow more space for just there yeah their humanness and I appreciate these conversations because they go deep and then not a 15 second real where it dies everything up in a neat bow in 15 seconds and then you're like well why is my life still a mess and then next thing you know judging yourself yeah definitely yeah I mean it's like just to be able to be attuned to like yourself

1:14:41on each day and what's present for each day whether there's energy there whether there's more integration needed or self-compassion or self-acceptance and being able to navigate whatever's present each time you wake up you know and not having not every day having to feel like it's the it's the same or it shouldn't be a certain way I think it's a it's a powerful thing yeah yeah I mean it takes me more to get out of bed every morning I can tell you like I used to be pretty good and now I just lay there with my pup and because it kind of when you wake up in hits you all over again or my dreams I have some weird dreams set of pappens since and some are traumatic some are just strange and I just lie in bed and you know old me would be like well you should have been up by 6 a.m. or whatever but then I'm like I am here snuggling my puppy dogs yeah the house is quiet and my soul must need this or else you know what I would have gotten up but if I need to be here right now just snuggling and and taking it slow and I can also

1:15:43over-schedule myself like just this earlier this year between like February to April I had 41 flights that I was on I was here there and everywhere so I really like like I kind of overdid it then and I you know maybe it was a part of me of like busy busy busy but again I'm like well if that's what I needed for that phase with my grief like I get it but I have tried to slow it down a little now and really allow myself to to be to be more present and yeah have time to to hug the puppies and hang with my husband yeah enjoy those moments oh yeah enjoy those moments so what's happening sorry go you know I don't know if I'm breaking up well I guess I what I was curious about because I know you have a lot of talks and you're flying here and there and I'm sure you tell your story often it's probably different every time it's not the same exact story but how do you even relate to that to like keeping it real and not just like oh I gotta go tell the story of what happened like what is that process like for you also I think for me it's those little moments that I share with

1:16:50you like the 337 the sun right like I can quickly go back into that so it does feel more real and genuine and it doesn't just feel like storytelling for me because those little details take me right back into it and you know I have a way as I learned about got into the world of public speaking you want to show people your scar and not your wound and so you want to have healed it enough where they can see it and believe it's real and you've gone through it but yeah you're not like mulling on stage so for the first farewell like I actually so mum died in May I had two key notes I was meant to do the next week which I unfortunately felt terrible but I was like there's no way I'm going to be able to get up and and do those but I do also speak with youth and so I went back to Australia in August so I was out about three four months after mum died and I just decided like I'm not I'm not talking about mum or integrating any of that yet it wasn't until I found a way

1:17:53to kind of tell the story so it was about my friend hosting an event and I knew she'd hold me with love and space no matter what I took up on stage so it's when I first had it also integrating mum and it was such a beautiful event and they all cheered for me when I spoke about the advocacy side of things and everything but I have to read the event and read the audience because I understand like I've got a heavy story to share and so it's finding that balance of vulnerability without people feeling overwhelmed by the heaviness of it and so I'm to be honest I'm still learning that in real time and I think it'll evolve as I go oh I feel like I've got a fairly good balance now but just because it is so recent but I do bring mum in but I let them fall in love with her and hear about all the work she did with the charity and then just like oh my god I'm going through this nightmare again and here's how I'm living it this message again in real time but if anything I just hope um kind of like you mentioned like if I'm standing up there and I'm

1:18:59doing my thing and I'm still living and breathing and laughing in a way hopefully that even says more than my words could could say that the human if you allow yourself to break open and peace things back together little by little like we are so much more resilient than we give ourselves credit for and um so I think that gives them hope of like oh shit no matter what you really go through life um you can you can rebuild and um yeah I don't know if I'd find peace again I don't know how how I have peaceful moments I wouldn't say my soul is at peace yet but um I do know I'd sign myself up if I pictured my soul being like you're going to be the daughter to Julie and the sister of Nicole and he's how you're going to lose them um I'd say I'm all in because the privilege of being loved by them and raised by them and everything I'd be like all right so we're gonna we're gonna go deep on this life but um the love will go even deeper and we'll get you through it so yeah you could go on you know you had said something earlier in the

1:20:07in our chat about like well I want to live forever because I'm you know and that means I want to see I want to see them again you know and interesting enough last night I was doing some work on my computer I'm like we just put on a movie in the background that I'd seen many times before and I'm gladiator uh with Russell Crowe and Jimuunzo and they have that scene you know where he's I think he's saying that is he lost his life and his child and he and Jimuunzo goes you think you'll see them again and he goes yes and then Jimuunzo goes but not yet and it's like when I think about you and your story and your advocacy work and all that it's like well you will see them again but what you're doing how you're living the aliveness um sharing your story sharing your vulnerability like this this is your mission this is your gift um and so I just made me think of that you know like yeah it's it's hard not to um because part of me and I guess it's the Aussie and us Joe a little bit like tuning our own horn or making us sound you know we're used to just like

1:21:10she'll be right or like tall poppy syndrome or whatever um but I I do have to tell myself sometimes like there's got to be a reason I'm still here and perhaps it is the reason like my soul more work to do earthside before I join them wherever they're at and um yeah not trying to say oh so I was more important it's just like I must have signed myself up for that for that mission um and to be uh to be a Fitsy girl is like because my maiden name is Fitsymons um it's just like it's the greatest honor and I really as much as I would give anything to hear their voice again I can always and perhaps you found this too with your dad if you need advice you just ask the question and you already you know what they would say and how they'd how they'd guide you um through it so I find I really just come back to like I've got more work to do here and I just have to learn how to communicate with them in a in a different language which is for me rainbows sunrises different

1:22:14I even get chills like every so like often when I say or like when I'm thinking of certain things and or certain songs come on you know it's yeah pretty they're pretty creative when they want to and it's also like your relationship to the thing because we don't know we don't know if the if the thing is our our dad or our sister talking to us but like I think we're shortly after we move my mom out here or you know she would sit outside and this she this one hummingbird showed up and she comes to me she's like I think the speedle come to me because my mom's Greeks which is a thick accent she's like you know what I do I ask the bed if it if you are speedle come again 12 will cut the next day and then the bird would come back the next day and so she's just like has this relationship with this hummingbird that you know and it's like I don't I don't know yeah what's real what's not but it's like it's that the imagination and the hope and the connection and and your soul and your relationship to it is what matters and how it makes you feel and I don't

1:23:17know I just feel like find those moments like it's of course it's it's it's pretty it's pretty powerful yeah for sure I mean we don't know which is the beautiful thing in that is that we get to choose like whether you're saying it isn't that that's a choice like you're making that up as much as you're saying it it is that and I like people call you crazy I'm like you know what's crazy is we're on this rock flying through space which no one like it's it's all crazy if you think about it so it's like there's so much mystery that we have no f in clue what the heck all this yeah something yeah I don't even really know what consciousness is yet like like let's just let it be let it be crazy and let it be true like I am and I always just say find like believe whatever brings you peace and helps you be a kind person and helps you be brave in life like those three like if you whatever those beliefs are because you know I had some people come with me with religion after my sister first started I was like hey I went to an Anglican I've been there I've done that that's not my style I'd say I'm spiritual not so much religious but I'm not against whatever you believe

1:24:21that helps you but he's really what what's helped what's helped me and yeah yeah what's what's on the horizon for you where are you pouring your energy primarily from here well I've really the the keynote speaking and getting out there and being in person sharing stories and teaching is like really what's lighting me up at the moment so I lost set a bit of steam when when mom died last year but I started 2026 and I was like this is it this is my reset this is my year where I'm going to go harder to so I poured my money into like a new website and I just started my news I just launched my new speaking reel and saying yes to every opportunity that I get there I just did my TEDx talk which is a really cool experience there and yeah I just want to continue to travel and and share my story because it is I was actually thinking about it yesterday I got a

1:25:25little emotional I'm like speaking when I'm on stage I don't know if you guys have something that you do where it it feels like a spiritual experience because it's like this is my calling and really where I belong and where I'm meant to be and it's not it's just as I said I think it's such a incredible thing that you can walk into a room all those strangers and then by the end of it we're crying we're hugging we're laughing we're all sharing stories that probably even people have known you for years might not know yet like it's just kind of I think it's such a a privilege to get to do what I do so I would just love to continue to just spread that and I actually you know but so random and I'm so grateful for this opportunity but I'm actually speaking at the Wyoming governor's business forum in November when a governor speaks just like wow 10 year old me growing up in the beaches of Sydney Australia if you one time told us you'd be speaking there as you do what but I am so grateful my Wyoming's really kind of embrace me and I've met so many awesome

1:26:30people around the state and I'm getting some good opportunities here because I think they're like wait what there's a speaker that lives in Wyoming that's it's probably not a lot of Australian people in Wyoming either is there or are there you know I think I'm here to meet one someone said I was talking to her and her sheep had got shaved or she'd buy an Aussie I was like oh my god it was an Aussie in town because he came to came to visit but no there's not there's not too many about so it kind of makes it a bit of a like oh that's that's interesting but the fact that they're willing to have me a part of something like oh that forum is very well respected so super grateful for for that opportunity and yeah it's kind of crazy to think like 10 years ago I hadn't even met my now husband yet and the idea of living in America was not even on the radar so it is kind of cool to think what the next 10 years might look like and it's probably gonna break my heart in ways

1:27:31that I would never want but I also think there's gonna be some adventures in there that are cooler than I can imagine right now so yeah you're from you're from like Dolls Point San Susie originally yeah you want me to put my address out there for you don't I'm from Slovenia waters so like we're we're we're not well what are you doing to graduate are we the same time uh 2000 and seven oh I'm oh nine so close oh cool I went to yeah in a bar in Bengal in New Manai that's where I did my 10x talk was it in a bar at the auditorium there you serious yeah that is in this same what the hell I love that you connected that yeah I was just that in a bar in April because they would did they have that really fancy auditorium it was no it was not built like it is now when I was there but yeah that's why that's awesome yeah I have a good old day in bank do you know what we were good yeah well we were we were watermelons because we had the

1:28:31pink shirt and the green um green skirt so yeah we were good old watermelons but uh yeah wow we're super close and yeah I am Dolls Point area so that's where I go back and hang when I go see dad he turns 70 in about three weeks so I'll go back to celebrate the big seven oh with him he didn't want to do much but I was like mom wouldn't want you to to celebrate so I've got big shoes to feel because she knew hospitality like nothing else but uh yeah I'll be back there soon amazing awesome I'm over at your dad yeah we mean all this spend so much time there especially when we're first dating cafes around there walking I spend a lot of time in the water there as well Jessica Eesboats like I know it no well it's beautiful it's beautiful but for sure um yeah okay I can't tell you how grateful I am that you joined us on here for the truth you shared your story um you've impacted me in a pretty powerful way and I'm sure you're going to impact everyone that gets the chance to listen to this as well in closing how would you like to

1:29:32direct out audience like how can I find you connect with you um etc yeah well thank you so much again for this opportunity and to a beautiful wife Alyssa um not just for uh making this connection happen but she also I know continues to honor my sister and remember her so that really means so much yeah for anyone who's listening that has any question feedback uh want to share your story I love hearing those or just want to learn more about uh what I do uh so my website is my name so it's kat gladden.com that's gladden with an i and then I'm both social on instagram typically um that's just at kat gladden and I would say there's a bit on facebook you'll find me on there and linked in um just under my name but yeah please do not be shy I think you can tell I don't mind a chat um but I also don't mind going deep and if you're going through something where it feels like no one really understands what you're going through um please reach out and if any of

1:30:33this is picked your own desire or curiosity to want to build something meaningful for what you've gone through whether it's right your first book um start some coaching or speaking or advocacy work um please reach out and be like some mentoring with that I do coaching um to build from what you've been through amazing thank you so much everyone else thank you for listening thanks so much for listening to this episode right before you leave us we would love for you to follow your subscribe comments on whether wherever you're listening or watching or enjoying this episode whether it's Spotify Apple YouTube or anywhere else and you're going to join our email list to stay up to date with all future episodes you can do so add here for the truth.com