Ep. 936: Something From The White House That We Can All Applaud

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1:01Tacovas point your toes west and also pro tip. Stop in one of the retail locations. They are amazing stores. Warning. This product contains nicotine nicotine is an addictive chemical black buffalo products are intended for adults aged 21 and older who are consumers of nicotine or tobacco. NIC Buffalo spent 20,000 hours working alongside American farmers to build a tobacco alternative that actually dips like the real thing. Long cut ampouches made from barn-cared leafy greens with no tobacco leaf or stem and winter green mint straight and more. Check your local gas station or sea store or hit black buffalo.com and use code meat for 30% off your first order. Black buffalo tobacco alternative is everything you love about dip. Nothing you don't. You guys are always here to be talking about Montana knife company. I love these guys hands down favorite knives.

2:02The blades are incredibly solid. These are high quality tools that put in the work. Well, you asked for it and I've been asking for it and MKC finally did it. They're launching their very first folding knife. It's called the Montana. It'll be dropping soon. Go to mkc.com right now and sign up for email and text alerts so you don't miss the drop. mkc.com Montana knife company working knives for working people. Again mkc.com. Welcome to the news show everybody. We got a doozy for you. This week we've got big, great news from the White House which is very nice and a welcome break from a string of bad news from the White House. We've got a new US typical white tail deer record which nudges out the huff buck who we interviewed here on the podcast so condolences to you. We got a dude in Pennsylvania put out a onesie and shot a new Pennsylvania state record

3:04out with a crossbow. We got Etsy really is the devil. We've got fresh wolf news and we hear from US representative Ryan Zinkie about a piece of legislation called get this a river runs through it act which is artful naming. But first back to that giant buck. All right. Earlier this month, boon and crack it announced that there is a new USA record for typical white tail deer and it's a buck that was killed 35 years ago. Here's how that came to be. Sam Ayupa of Northern Illinois was out feson haunting on November 28, 1991. His passion was burning and he considers himself just a casual deer hunter. He said he'd always buy deer tags but he like never put much time or effort into actually deer hunting. However, it was actually feson haunting that helped him kill what would end up being the new USA record. Here is Sam telling the story of that hunt via boon and crack it.

4:05Bill. Okay. I was hunting birds around three there. We put the dogs up. I had to stand there because I saw a lot of spray things and a lot of deer tracks. I said I'm going to go into deer stand. This was around 3.30 in the afternoon. Just before sat down, this deer come walking down the trail. He stopped. He looked around. He walked a little bit and sat down looked around. I looked up my slug shot done. I took one shot. He jumped up in the air, came down and went over to hill. Stuart and my stand for another 15, 20 minutes came down. Sawed a blood on over to hill and there he was playing that on the other side of the hill. Called my buddy and we helped process the deer at that time. Now that's a deer hunting story. Just no nonsense. Yeah, man. He cuts all the bullshit out. Yeah. Guys would take longer to tell you about a doe that they didn't kill. Oh, yeah. That's just how quick. Totally. This is the USA record. It doesn't seem like he was out there after a record.

5:07You know, right? It's like the handsome believable deer. So but helmet. Yeah. Okay. You got to get to all this. Uh huh. Because this is a long time ago. Yes. What? Giant. That's bigger than the one laying in my yard. Yeah. He's that big. And what Sam doesn't mention in that clip is how the gun he killed it with a Remington 870 was also his feson hunting gun that day. So he just went home, swapped out his bird shot for slugs and then went deer hunting. That's how it goes. He wasn't even using a rifle slug barrel. It's just a smooth or so Sam kills that buck with very little fanfare. He skull caps the deer nails it to a plaque and hangs it in his basement. There he is. At that point, the buck basically disappears for three decades. Uh, then in 2023, Sam has an electrician at his house to do some work. The electricians name is Don. Don starts working in the basement. And that's when he spots the deer and he can't believe his eyes. And then when he sees the deer, he goes to Sam. He's like Sam, where the hell did this deer come from? And Sam tells him the story how he killed it 30 years prior.

6:10And that's when Don tells Sam, hey, this might be the Illinois State record. So Don pleads with Sam to get the buck scored because he thinks it might get thrown the Mel Johnson buck, very famous white tail. It was the Illinois State record of 204 inches that is stood since the 1960s. So Sam gets the buck roughly scored and it's even bigger than anyone imagined. Initial measurements show that this deer is actually a world record caliber, not just state record size. So the buck has now at this point, like kind of entered the public eye in an antler collector in New York. Here's about it through the grapevine. He drives 600 miles to Sam's house to see the rack and ends up purchasing it from him for an undisclosed mountain. Oh, come on. Right. Really sits in basement for 30 years. Antler collector hears about it prior to it being officially scored. Antler collector goes and buys it from Sam. Man, I bet Sam got screwed on that deal, man. I'm guessing he didn't get his top dollar at that point.

7:10That would be my assumption. So the antler collector then has it officially scored by Boone Crockett and it comes out to a typical score of 207 and 7 eighths, even with those big old drop time, even with those dropers. It made it the new Illinois record by three inches, the new USA record by two inches, but it fell short of the world record that was killed in Canada by about six inches. Here are some highlights of the rack. The gross score was 233 and 7 eighths inches. It had 13 points. Oh, back up. Yeah. Why is it all stuff now? Because they do that. The antler collector went and got it stuff. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I don't think by a cape and put it on. I get all that. But why? Because it looks like that. We're all the way to Sam. Yeah. Just so you can look at it on a on a white tail. White tail. That is by white tails hide that's not his. This is just like what happens with these things. You know, and I have man, the brown times are what got in the record, I think.

8:13Brow times 13 inches each with a brown time. That's probably the highlight of the rack. The first thing you notice, the bucket 13 points. The frame is a six by five. Two abnormal points on the left antler. One of those is a seven inch drop time inside spread of 20 inches. The biggest mass measurement was six inches and each antler measured over 100 inches on their own. Man. Oh, go. We would have counted them little points where I came from. Well, if you can hang a red one. They're all rulers. You can hang a wedding ring on it. The Fred troast from Michigan can hang a wedding ring on it. That's man. Here's a deal, man. Like, here's where you're reporting is really falling short. Okay. That antler buyer, I feel like he screwed. What's the guy's name? Sam? No, sir. Sam was the hunter. The antler buyer was something Martin. I'm afraid that Sam got boned because I was just reading about it. My kid was reading me this. Our kids get this kiddie news magazine. My kid there. And I was reading me a story about some kid goes into a thrift shop and buys a warm, a

9:17Lakers or like a Lakers warm up jacket for a couple bucks. And then it sold at auction for $86,000 because it was a will chamberlains warm up jacket. I feel that he pulled a one of those. I hope not. But did he pull a one of those on that dude? I no one's going to tell me the price. I asked some of these folks in the past what they got paid for their racks. I usually NDAs come with these. It's like going to a yard sale and in Michigan, finding old man, Rinalis tree stand. Yep. That dude's giving me that back. I know we probably got it for a steal. Oh, that's huge. Probably worth some money. No, you might be signing an NDA. When I get back, we're going to talk about it on the news show. And this is great. This is great. There's a few more wrinkles to this story. That's great. Again, it is the world's second biggest typical white tail ever kid killed. However, when it was killed, it was actually the world record because the Mylil Hansen bug wasn't shot until 1993.

10:17So two years after Sam Iupa killed this year. So that thing sat in his basement for two years as the world record white tail without anyone knowing that it even exists. God has got extra smooth on all of his money. Yeah. He didn't know that. He would have sold that thing for, he would have sold that thing for a quarter million dollars. Uh huh. Yep. Another interesting detail, although it took over 30 years for the buck to resurface, it turns out this deer wasn't a complete unknown. A shed hunter actually picked up the bucks right side that would have been from the deer's 1989 rack. And another shed hunter picked up the bucks matching set that were from the 1990 rack. So the season prior to it getting killed, uh, those antlers had some global fame in the white tail world because the 1990 left shed measured 105 inches, making it the second biggest shed of all time. What? Why is that glued to a skull? Again, people just want to see it on a rack or on a hide. And so the shed person who found these two matching sets put them on a skull.

11:19That was not the deer's skull. Steve's looking at a picture right now of the shed hunter. Uh, so second, second biggest shed of all time. Uh, it wasn't until recently that this, it was until recently, this year was known as the James Albring buck named after the man who found the 1990 matching sheds, sheds, uh, but of course it is now the Sam Ayupa buck, the guy who killed the thing on boy. They don't know exactly how old it was. Do they know? Uh, but he, he throws a pretty similar rack from like 89 to 90 to 1991. It looks like he's still on his way up. So I would guess when he was killed, um, five, six and a half, probably six and a half, seven and a half is when they'll start to go downhill. Yeah, but the handsome buck was only four. Is that what they said? The world record was four. Not crazy. It is crazy. Uh, so, so this dude, this dude unknowingly had to work on his manial piece with his next to pictures of his kids graduating high school, not even on his main floor in his basement.

12:20In his basement next to like, and there's a picture next to his pictures of his kids graduating from high school. He had for two years the world record whitetail. He did. And I don't know this detail. I just assume it's an unfinished basement like, you know, it's a couple feet of like some ductwork. It was the next to his kids pictures of his kids. It was next to the breaker box. The electrician was welcome. Yeah. That makes you think how many world record bucks are out there right now. Tell it all. But we don't know about. Yeah, there's that great story about this dude that had the biggest, the guy that holds the Idaho Mildew record. He shot it years ago. I think his name was Ernie or something like that. Shot it years ago, remarked that it looked like a screwy buck quote, through it is barn. And in a long time later, someone's like, hey, you ever have that measured? Yeah. And it's still in this dude was out pot hunting. He's like, not just going out to get some deer meat. Shot, I thought it looked like a screwy buck. I'm sure there's stories like that all over the place. The world record desert big horn sheep was killed in Baja California in 1940 by a Native

13:21American who was just meat haunting. He didn't even take the skull from the field. It was a rancher who found the skull out there, brought it back to the ranch, sat it there a year later, some other hunter who comes in who does kind of is aware of these things. And he's like, where did that thing come from? And they're like, oh, yes, some some native fella killed it here last year. Turned out to be the world record and nobody had any. Yeah, that's crazy. You know what's telling Spencer the other day and he didn't seem that interested in it? No, what? If I could see any any buck in the world, it would be this buck. So you know, Colonel Dodge, like Dodge City, well Dodge City, everybody thinks his name that to Colonel Dodge, we was already named Dodge City when Colonel Dodge got there, but like Colonel Dodge, big hunter, this is back in the, you know, he's big hunter in the mid to late 1800s. He's down in Texas. So I think he was down in Texas when it happens and shoots a buck, a mule deer.

14:24And he's like, this was a buck, the likes of which no one had ever seen, but I lost it in the fire. Oh, so you wonder like what was up? I don't know, maybe it's a dink. I don't think it's a dink because at that time, like all that unhunted ground, you know, and he's like, Tom, about no one's seen a buck like this. Like what was that? Yeah, but back then, where people didn't even care about it. I know, but he did. So he's like the fact that he and his memoir is like, dude, this was a smoke and buck. You got him. Wonder what that buck was. He says interest. The Brody's interest. I'm into it. I'm into it. You see, you see those old timey black and white photos of people having, you know, the buck pulled photos. They're not even smiling. Yeah. And every single deer there is like a giant. Yeah. Or they got all these deer hanging on a pole and like laying off in the background of some giant that's off to the side. Now one final thing, if all of these numbers are like, if this isn't your language, and this is making you dizzy in the words like typical and non-typical and deductions and

15:28it seems kind of convoluted, that's because it is. Here's a great example of how complicated and ridiculous big buck measurements get. We had Dustin Huff on the podcast in 2022. It was in 2021 when he killed his famous white tail that he named Moose. The title of the podcast was Episode 338, the biggest buck in the USA. And that was an accurate title until 2025. Here's what happened. Every three years, the official awards program judges panel from Boon and Crock. It gets together for a meeting. And it's at this meeting that they verify the scores of all of the biggest animals that were entered into the books since the last time that they met three years prior. Well at the 2025 Triennial panel, the group of judges remeasure Dustin Huff's buck and wound up giving it an official score of 205 and six eighths. This was five inches smaller than previous scores. And it wound up making it three eighths of an inches, three eighths of an inch smaller than the James Jordan buck.

16:30Thus Dustin's deer went from number one in the USA to number two. I don't know that. But of course with the addition of Sam Ayupa buck, Huff now sits at number three. So I talked to Dustin about this earlier this week. He's still of course like thrilled that he killed the deer. It doesn't care if it's one, two or three. But he said how the whole process has made him wonder if there's a better way to measure the size of deer antlers where there's not so many things that are just like left up to judgment calls. And you have to wait 60 days. Well actually you have to wait three years until this panel can get together. It's all very complex. I don't know what it is. And you get different guys scoring them. Well, which I know what Steve's answer is going to be. Here's what Dustin wants to be. Dustin would love it if there was a 3D scan that could be done that throughout any like human error. There would be no more judgment calls. It would take into account all of the mass measurements rather than just eight of them like the Boone and Crockett system. And maybe if that program existed, we would look at the top 10 deer in the USA all different

17:32things of how it would take into account the actual size of the right. That's basically the same thing you're going to say. Isn't it? Well, I was just going to say just to be just to be provocative. I was going to say I've always been curious about water displacement. Right. It's the same thing. Like don't come into tank of water. But then you're throwing all this non-typical typical thing and all that. So maybe like for non-typical, you don't put in a tank of water, measure the volume of antler and that's like the deal. And you can shoot some big crazy clubhorned buck. That's the problem, right? Yeah. The sun dude shoots some big crazy buck that's got like a weird grow found and it winds up being like, ah, number one. Yeah. But it doesn't even look like a deer. So new USA record buck. All right, man. One way for Phil. Oh, normally you go now. Let's move on to. Yes. Okay.

18:33You podcast listeners that remember back to a very popular episode we did called, well, with the, I remember the whole thing was called. It was with author Brian Burrell. It was episode 740 and it was about the gunfighters, about the gunfighter era and about the weird thing that he explores in his book and he talked about the podcast is why do all of the gunfighters come from Texas or have passed through Texas? What was it about Texas that produced all the famous gunfighters? Well, check this out. It was so popular and such an intriguing idea of the history of the gunfighters that Brian Burrell is coming on to our podcast network and launching a podcast called the gunfighters. It drops weekly on Tuesdays on the gunfighter's feed. It's out now. So check out that podcast, the gunfighters, which is the story of all the great gunfighters.

19:39Also, we keep talking about this pre sale and all that BS. Okay. The live tour tickets are just like regular old on sale. If you want to come see us in the live tour, it's on sale. December 14th, we're going to be a grand wrap as Michigan. December 15th Milwaukee, Wisconsin. December 16th, Madison, Wisconsin. December 17th, Des Moines, Iowa. December 18th, Minneapolis, Minnesota. December 19th, Fargo, North Dakota. That's either live the Christmas tour. I've heard that the Fargo venue is the hottest one right now. If you're thinking of going in Fargo, you better get your tickets. You know what? We're about that one because all these other places I got bodies there. And I couldn't think of many bodies in Fargo. Who's going to buy the ticket? Steve's going to make something. My mom's not there. All right. Our next segment is sports ball fights. Football season is here and we are going to predict the winner of some games this season,

20:41but we're not basing this on talent or coaching or home field advantage like every other analyst. We are picking based on the merits of their animal mascots. Thanks to draft kings for sponsoring today's segment. This week, Steve is going to predict how it would go if a Bronco fought a ram. Steve, who would win that skirmish? Well, there's who would win? If I picture a Bronco and a ram fighting, there's who would win and who needs to win. Okay. Explain. Now explain. And they want it being the same answer. Then a ram, if these guys measured the impact of, I think it was, I can't remember his big horns or dolls, but they measured the impact. You know, when they jump up to butt heads, when those things butt heads, they measured how much force it is. It's something like, it's something like 50 times the amount of force it would take to

21:44shatter a human skull. Mmm. Geez. A devastating car accident. It's just meaning if you sat there and got strapped in and let a big horn ram do his thing where he gets up on his back feet and gets wheeling head and does it, you're a dead man. Even if you got a football helmet on, probably. Oh, yeah. No, you know what it is? It's not. I remember now it was 20 X. Okay. 20 X, what it takes to crush a human skull. We're really measured that. It's force. I don't know the same dudes that figure out car crashes. I don't know. It's a good question. I don't know. Car crash is a little more. They got all these, they got all these sponge, if you look at the skeletal structure on them underneath that are like these like, these sponge structures that are like shock absorbers. Mmm. Anybody that's heard, it sounds like a 22 going off. Mmm. I mean, it really does. Like, he could be out in the woods in November. Yeah. They're like, oops, I'm gonna shoot the gun. It's like, no, it's big horns, hitting heads. So if you strapped in some bronco, horse, strap them into a thing and let a ram smoke

22:52them dead, that's who would win. Okay. Now, here's why it needs to be that way. Because when I hear the word broncos, now a lot of cowboy guys are going to hear the word bronco and they're thinking like, you know, riding around on horses. I hear the word bronco and I'm thinking feral horses. Yeah. Or quote, quote, unquote wild horses. Something that wanted off some BLM land in Nevada. Yeah. And because of some poorly construed legislation back in the 70s, we've created a problem where we now have a infestation of wild horses and burrows, aka broncos, running around on desert big horn habitat. And using up food resources and water resources that should be going to native wildlife. That's what I think when I hear the word broncos. So these actual rams should be fighting these broncos. These rams should be fighting these broncos. If they could smoke them, they'd smoke them. But they need to win because there is an existential fight in the American West, Nevada, Utah.

23:58Okay. There's an existential fight in the American West between rams and broncos. Okay. So there's just a lot of stake for them. There's a lot going on. You're taking a ram. Dude, they've wood and they have to. Okay. Rams beat the Broncos. One app every sport, all 50 states, new draft kings, customers, sign up with code meat eater, spend just five bucks and get 150 in rewards within 14 days, includes all markets. That's code meat eater and partnership with draft kings. The crown is yours. Thanks again to draft kings for sponsoring today's segment. Gambling problem called 1-800-Gamber. 1-800-Myreset. Connecticut called 888-789-7777- Visit ccpg.org. On behalf of Boot Hill, Casino and Kansas, a tax pass through May applying, Illinois, 21 and over, void in Canada. Bed with draft king sportsbook to get bonus bets that expire in seven days or trade with draft king's predictions to get predictions dollars that expire in one year. Event contract trading involves risk of loss. Predictions offer void in New York. Non-withdrawable rewards issued as $50 click to claims every seven days for 14 days.

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27:04to the cricket. So head over to land.com today to turn one day into today because trust me, there's nothing quite like the feeling of standing on your own piece of earth. Okay, your news. You know, I'm not going to play it Steve because you don't like it and I need to think of a new one. I thought about just going to play it just so people can see how bad it is. Yeah, sure. I love to. Just to remind people how dumb it is. It's like a non thing. It's out. It's not that bad. Do it again. Okay. Well, okay, when I say three, because I know. Okay, sorry. It's so dumb, so short, you don't even know that it happened. Okay, ready? Okay, I count three. Okay, one, two, three. There's like a little pain in my head. It's below filled to normal. Yes. High standards. Yes. Like if I said to my 10 year old, I may, hey, make a little thing and he made that. I'd be like, oh, it's so cute. Good job. But it's like it's filled. It feels like got a career of great things he's made.

28:06It's just this worst thing. You never know. It's easy to hang it up on your fridge, Steve. That's all I care. What? Yeah. I don't know. Honestly, I don't think it's that bad. I said it last week when I was putting these together, that was the one where I was like, I can do better, but we record in five minutes. So I ran downstairs. I can do better. Phil, share with listeners. Yes. Share with listeners the quote that you looked up yesterday. Oh, there can be no deep disappointment without a deep love. Martin Luther King Jr. I thought he's talking about America. Phil said he was talking about the church, but I'm saying that talking about Phil. No, he can't. No. Powerful. No great disappointment without deep love. So like he, like, you know, everybody's got their worst stuff. You know, there's like some not all stones albums are great. Yeah. Steel wheels. It's like, come on.

29:07I love you. You do that. That's Phil's steel wheels. I went to that concert. It's not a press. I love music from the 70s and I heard someone express one time how like amazing and phenomenal and they just like didn't miss the 70s with music. And someone was like, well, no, you're only hearing what survived the 70s. There was actually a lot of bad music in the 70s. It just doesn't get played on the oldie station. Yeah. That's funny. You mentioned it. My favorite thing in the world to do is goof on Seth about how little Seth knows about 70s rock and roll. It's just like it's a joke that never gets old. It happens a lot lately. Yeah. Goof and on Seth about him not knowing who wrote famous 70 songs is the best thing I could do with my time. I have fun way to make it. It came up daily when we were in Florida last week. Yeah. When you guys get to travel again. We know. We're going, hey, Seth, you know who this is? No. Just that's just what we do for hours. I can bring back a Gordon Lightfoot parody again if you want. All right. I brought to you by banish.

30:07I'm holding a banish can right here. And with the kiddie deer season coming up, this is becoming a very important part of our arsenal. Yep. Dude. I mean, I like it for me. But if I'm hung on my kids, I especially like it because it makes them like shooting. It's great. So hit it, Seth. Etsy. We're back with more Etsy hypocrisy. Was it the last one where I talked about the Etsy thing with fur? I think so last week was the AMA with Steve, but I think it was the week before that. Before that. It's totally coincidence that I'm holding this squirrel. Do you buy that on Etsy? No, but isn't it bizarre that now, okay, now on Etsy, you would not be able to sell a score. I didn't even grab it for this reason. On Etsy, you would not be able to sell a road kill squirrel. Coosie. Yep. But I thought, well, go ahead. Well, so the United States Fish and Wildlife biologist wrote in who chooses not to be named.

31:12Yep. Does not want to be named, but they wrote in with this email. I listened to your Etsy hypocrisy piece with great interest. Under the Migratory Burp Protection Act, it is illegal to possess most native bird feathers. Under the Lacey Act, it is illegal to move protected animal products across state lines. Bites strictly regulates foreign birds across national borders. However, if you start poking around on Etsy, you will find many stories, our stores, where bird feathers are for sale that clearly violate at least one of the above acts for sighties. Try searching for burrowing owls or barn owl. Some of the stores say the feathers are ethically sourced or from captive birds, but that makes no difference according to the laws when people don't get permits. And they both, and they both the buyer and the seller need them.

32:15And Etsy does not bother with it. And they ban ethically legally sourced fur and fur products. The hypocrisy makes me sick. You know some more hypocrisy on Etsy and Alamana's whole thing about just how misguided this fur band was and counterproductive and contradictory of any kind of regulatory structure and what's actually going on with these wildlife species in America is that you can go on there. You can go on Etsy and buy a, you know what a bust is, like a carving, decorative bust, like carvings of people. There's a whole industry on there. You can buy Sean Combs, Busts. You can buy Jeffrey Epstein Busts. You can buy sculptures of Sean Combs and Jeffrey Epstein with their arms around each other. You can buy Spring Break 2000 Epstein Island t-shirts. There's this whole genre of products on Etsy which capitalizes on the pain and suffering

33:20and exploitation of young women. And Etsy is like, oh that's cool. That's totally cool. What we don't want you doing is selling a Koosie made of, of, of, scroll fur that you harvested legally with a license that funds your state fishing game agency. It is so dumb and sickening. You know what's interesting, I just saw right now is that you can buy large barn owl pellets. So you can buy fur, but it has to be eaten by an owl and then scrolled up. The fact that they caved to that, it just makes, like someone, and I, we got to hear from someone that's working on this. There's someone working on an Etsy alternative. It's just like a more, this, this, then like an alternative to Etsy where you can support a company that's not so immoral and hypocritical and full of shit. Um, yep. Man, there's all kinds of feathers and stuff on you. You can buy Canadian goose wings or Canada goose wings because it's not first, not mean.

34:22All right, the news, you got a good one for this one. That's good. What happens in the end there? I think he gets eaten by a cat or something. What does the machine that's going to do? Well, it's the, it's the, it's the Morse code machine that I, well, it's a kind of morphs into a nut hatch. So I, I tried to find a bird that sounded like Morse code and I, I, I'm, Morse. Okay. So that's very good. That's bird is then eaten by a cat understood. I can add like a little hiss in there too. Making more obvious. Okay. Out of, no, we, we, we talked about like some, like a really good piece, like a, a pretty complex long piece of great news for hunters and anglers that came out of the White House. All right. Now let me, let me adjust my fonts here to be some blind. You know, I'm going to put my, I'm going to put my glasses on for some of this, right? It's getting serious. Yeah, getting real serious. Okay. Here's the deal.

35:23Near is the deal. Now, these are executive orders. A couple of weeks ago, they had in the White House, they had this like party. I saw this invitation floating around. They had this like reception, like celebrating American hunters and anglers. And you could get invited. I wasn't invited. I'll say how about that? I have friends that were invited. They went. I wasn't there. And out of this, out of this meeting came a couple of executive orders that are like really sharp. And they're good. And they're nuance and it and these are less like these, these big lists of fixes that are coming out of the White House to fix certain management issues. Okay. There's, there's a fishing one and a hunting one. The fishing one that came out of the White House is like an executive order. Restoring American saltwater, angling and recreation. All right. Let me give you with a little. How this, how this kind of thing words out what it looks like.

36:24It starts out by saying, by the authority vested in me as president, by the Constitution and the laws of the United States of America, it is here by ordered. Colin. Okay. Now it starts out that this executive order starts out with an approach that I'm sometimes uncomfortable with, but it's very common and it comes from enemies and allies alike. And it's this approach where you say you're like, Hey, nature is worth a bunch of money and hunters and anglers spend a bunch of money. Therefore, these things are important. Right. The reason I say I'm uncomfortable with that approach is while true, I don't think that those things need to be economically important to be valuable. So I'm like, I'm like, yes, that's all great, but that's not the final point. Okay. So that's why I say I'm uneasy with that, but it happens all the time. Everybody does it. They mean well.

37:24It's more of an intellectual argument around that. But again, these executive orders are like are all great news with one potential exception that I'll get into. But the order goes on. Okay. From there goes on for a sentence like this. It says America's outdoor recreation sector. So this is outdoor recreation sector generates over $1.2 trillion annually and supports over five million jobs to ensure America's recreational fishing remains strong. So this is an important sentence here that I want people to pay attention to. It says this to ensure America's recreational fishing remains strong. Federal fisheries management must appropriately prioritize both recreational and commercial fishing. So it suddenly kind of sets up that there is an emerging rub between recreational and commercial fishing.

38:24Which we'll get you because it's saying it doesn't say to ensure America's recreational and commercial fishing remains strong. It's not what it says. It says to ensure America's recreational fishing remains strong. Federal managers must appropriately prioritize both recreational and commercial. Just give you another little more flavor for how this thing reads out and then we'll get into the points. It says this order modernizes federal management by shifting the federal posture from restricting recreational access to fishing to actively empowering affiliated industries and coastal communities. It is the policy of the United States to elevate the marine recreational fishing industry as an important consideration in all federal ocean coastal and public land decision making. So that's kind of like the that's like the overriding just the thrust of it.

39:26Can I ask a question? Sure. Do you think this is linked to the red snapper thing? I'll get give me a minute. All right. It's way more complicated than that. I'm just wondering. Yes. It gets into that. What the tricky part of this is in doing my research on this executive order. I had to talk to a lot of people who deal in these certain things that we're going to get into to to be like what what are they trying to fix? Like it proposes fixes, but it doesn't get into what the rub is. So you have to a little bit track down and you'll find experts in these fields. They're like, oh, here's where that comes from. Here's what that here's the annoyance that that is trying to address because the order is you know it's like seven or eight pages right. So it doesn't give the whole background. But if you get into these you can find out. Here's the annoyance that this is addressing you. Here's the specifics that this is addressing and I'll try to provide some of those where I can. Okay. Here's some more language from this. So I can't go through the whole thing and read you the whole thing who take forever.

40:30I'm going to read you some key parts section three. Okay. Again, this is from the president of the United States. This is from Donald J. Trump. Section three. It begins like this modernizing data collection infrastructure for recreational catch and effort estimates. It says to resolve chronic inaccuracies and latency and federal commercial catch and match effort estimates. The federal government must transition away from antiquated data collection and sampling practices. Basically it comes down to this and and and and if your mom and dad work at NOAA like all respect. But basically it comes down to a per and educated perspective that NOAA has enlarged measure. Shit the bed on fisheries data collection. All right. They're relying on these old systems of like random Creel surveys. You know, you have a guy go down to the doctor. Hey, what'd you catch randomly?

41:30Okay. Or these mail-in questionnaires where fishing season ends and like tons of time goes by and you get a mail-in questionnaire and they're asked you to try to remember back to such and such date and how many fish you caught. Their system that they're using to measure how much people are fishing and how much they're catching was built around this idea of establishing these very long term trends. Okay. So they're sort of looking at like over time what do the trends look like and meanwhile they're getting their ass kicked by the states. Who are doing a much better job of finding out what is happening on the water and in the water at any given moment. A thing that's not brought up here but the drives this is this whole red snapper debacle. Where NOAA is trying to assess red snapper stocks through these antiquated systems and they're not they're just not getting an accurate picture of what goes on in the ground and they're getting a picture that contradicts the picture that the states are getting.

42:32Who are otherwise managing all the fisheries and it leads to these kind of crazy seasons seasons that are a couple weeks long seasons that are a couple days long and creates this kind of like bonanza atmosphere and then even then they don't know what's actually happening in the water. Okay. So it's given them like the order is giving them a little bit of a nut tap. And saying there's people that are doing this better than you that they're better staffed. This is not in the order but it's true they have like a better rapport with anglers and you're getting beat up on this. Instead of mailing papers off through the postal service that are going to end up in like junk mail piles. How about using a thing that this order specifically addresses. How about using apps. Mandatory or optional where appropriate apps where people are telling what is happening on the water right now when am I fishing how many fisher we seeing so you can make educated management decisions and have like adaptive management strategies that plan to what's happening the same way.

43:37If you think about in hunting the same way you have all these quota systems. You can turn on a hunt and you can monitor what's going on and then make adjustments. So that's what that one is coming from then there's this other fisheries one here says to address the decline of iconic recreational fisheries such as the Atlantic strike bass and other depleted stocks. The secretary shall generate a list of key species to use in partnership with the recreational angling community charter captains and state agencies to gather the importance here to gather real time data deploy advanced tagging technologies and improve catching release mortality estimates. And I've tried to find from people when they say improve catching release mortality estimates let me check my text messages I'm waiting on some info. I don't think I'm going to get it in time.

44:39No. What I'm wondering on this my guess my gut on this is that they're saying that on things like straight bass I wouldn't be surprised that they're saying these guys are killing way more fish than they think they are. I'm sure I don't think it's the other way around and it may be that they're saying why have a catch and release season and just just have a very limited catch and kill. I think that because if you look at well it's the stocks are depleted we're going to make the super narrow like with straight bass stocks are depleted we're going to make the super narrow slot limit right where you can keep a straight bass between 30 and 32 inches. Everybody runs out they want to get a keeper straight straight bass they run out and catch three dozen fish turn them all loose get their one slot fish and you're like I killed a fish. And I think that the answer is body you killed ten fish ran I'm sure you killed ten fish. So like getting an accurate sense of what's happening when you create these situations where you're generating all this catch and release effort thinking you're saving fish when you might be smoking fish.

45:48So that might get I don't know I haven't verified it with anybody I was hoping to get a text in time verifying this that's what I think is happening right there. So again also updating management like like updating data collection it's all good stuff. This is a phenomenal innovation from on X if you're hunting with a crew on X hunts location sharing puts everyone's live position on the same map updating every five seconds this isn't spying you log into your own on your bodies or in my situation I'm out on my kids. Put it on there everybody knows where everybody is updates every five seconds just think about the implications of this like how well you coordinate and keep track of people for safety reasons and others everybody can hunt their own plan and still know where the rest of the crew is when it's time to meet back up available now to premium any lead members open the on X hunt app and give location sharing a try. Life moves fast at American military university they're ready to help you keep up am used flexible affordable online programs in cyber security IT space studies and more are designed for service members veterans and their families.

47:05AMU provides the support you need to take the next step wherever life takes you American military university made for what's next learn more at AMU dot AP us dot EDU slash military you ever got that feeling you're stuck inside staring at screens and a primal urge kicks in you crave wide open spaces fresh air the chance to connect with the land well maybe it's time to find your own piece of the wild but searching for property can be a maze that's where land dot com comes in they got millions of listings across the country from mountain ranches to hidden fish and holes their search tools are like a season to guide helping you narrow down what you want land dot com isn't just about buying and selling it's about finding a place to hunt fish explore or simply sit by a campfire and listen to the cricket so head over to land dot com today to turn one day in the next day to today because trust me there's nothing quite like the feeling of standing on your own piece of earth.

48:12Then there's more stuff about a direction from the interior department to do that that that money thing that I talked to earlier like how big is this industry basically saying that they want to I'll just read the words within 180 days of the date of this order the secretary shall develop a comprehensive five year strategic plan with clear implementation milestones to improve the collection analysis and application of recreational fisheries economic data to support fisheries management. This plan shall ensure that the economic impact and value of recreational fishing blah blah blah is fully accounted for in federal fishery management decisions and harvest opportunities because what you're going to do is this earlier I said this thing without saying it I believe that this thing is setting up a potential I don't want to say a conflict but a potential reckoning between recreational angling and commercial angling

49:20where commercial angling has always had this value around economic output and I think that not I think what this is saying is we need to look at how big recreational fishing is and what it is as an industry. So in these areas where we're looking at recreational use versus commercial use they don't mention this such as the troll industry in Alaska for instance or like commercial king Sample. And recreational king Sample they're saying we're saying oh no no the commercial fishing is jobs recreational fishing is people messing around having fun and they're saying let's get a full picture of what this industry looks like because you might find in time that that's a bigger industry. That it's better for the end it's better for the country as a whole to support recreational more this doesn't say that this is me editorializing on what it says now here's what things get really good. Section 6 fast tracking artificial reefs and habitat creation.

50:23I don't want to spend a ton of time on this one but it's this. You get all these offshore oil rigs and over the years there has just been an ever evolving sense of what should happen with these offshore oil rigs sometimes they're using them to make this program called rigs to reefs. Right now what they're been doing or the last bunch of years is just harvesting these reefs so you build these oil rigs they go offline and these things have some people out there are going to contest this but but they're wrong and I don't even care what they say. These things have created a fishery they've created a habitat and a habitat desert. Seth can back me up anyone who has ever jumped in on an oil rig and jump there where there's not a oil rig and the Gulf of Mexico will tell you they have created. I mean they are an artificial reef they have created and maintain a fishery these rigs create biodiversity and these rigs create biomass they've been operating on a program recently where they take these things called rig reefers.

51:33They remove the whole damn rig down to subsurface and take away every scrap of anything and call that good news and it pisses off the fishermen in these places who are like you're hauling away all the habitat. Like don't even burden the conversation with why those rigs are there in the first place they're there now they provide habitat and this is saying this is a program. The federal outer continental shelf reef in place program to facilitate the conversion of decommissioned offshore oil and gas and other use structures. There's an interesting carve out for for wind energy which trump hates but anyways everything but wind energy. It's kind of crazy up so everything offshore other than ship built for wind energy which trump hates into permanent artificial reefs through reef in place topple in place or other approved reefing methods.

52:39That's great news there's just no two ways about that one being great news here's another one. I mentioned earlier the wild horse and burrow protection act where you create some legislation and it winds up coming around to screw you because no one can see into the future and you shouldn't make binding resolutions sometimes. Here's a big one section seven managing predators and it is looking at shark and pinnipede depredation on fishery species. There are a lot of places in the country where the shark is shark populations are out of hand now people can people can look at how can that be true. I hear all I read about is sharks being depleted yes it is a big planet three force of the earth is covered in ocean there are plenty of places in those oceans where sharks are depleted but I'll point out you can only hunt elk on about 14% of native elk habitat. The fact that elk are not recovered in southern Wisconsin does not mean that elk are not recovered in Colorado it's just a big place and so this is opening up some latitude to look at sharp deck shark.

53:45Depredation and take appropriate management efforts and probably what this is getting out without saying it is loosening up shark harvest regulations it seems like every other year you're reading about some state that says total ban on shark harvest. You shouldn't be doing that stuff because it's not like adaptive management and this seeks to address some of that projects for increasing fish a bunch of you back up you didn't address the pinnipede thing which I think is kind of super important. I should have talked about the pinnipede thing a great pinnipede example would be trying to recover salmon in the Columbia watershed. The problem one of the problem not not the problem for Pacific salmon in the lower 48 okay the problem for Pacific salmon lower for you was a construction of dams. Which have all these obvious problems with you have you have an adjermis migratory fish a dams obstructed they keep fish from going upstream and they keep young fish from coming downstream that's the core primary issue.

54:55I'm trying to work around that find a way to move forward on fish recovery while dealing with the dams being present there's all these steps you can take but there's a big thing happening is over the decades sea lions. Have figured out that if you want to kill a ton of salmon go to a dam the dams are great for them because the fish even when there's structure there fish ladders and things the fish pause at the dams. And sea lions just do word of mouth learn to come you're going to think that I'm lying I'm not sea lions have learned to come from literally hundreds of miles away to bitch slap salmon at those dams. And you got strong sea lion numbers but people are like oh no no you can't mess with sea lions because of the marine mammal protection act in the marine male protection act becomes an impediment to restoring salmon so you have healthy sea lion populations now which you can't mess with.

55:59And you have salmon which you're trying to help but now you can't help them because you're stuck and got screwed by this other piece of legislation called the marine mammal protection act and it's trying to do some necessary work to allow again like nuanced thoughtful adaptive management practices and get out from under a lot of like very burdensome counterproductive regulations. It's all it's it's it's good stuff and I've gotten to the main thing. I'm trying to move fast now projects for increasing fish abundance yes. And it's all the big one on this is a section eight projects for increasing fish abundance. Here's the key sentence there's always habitat stuff going on here's the key sentence agencies are encouraged to transition habitat restoration metrics toward production based goals which is saying if you're going to go do aquatic habitat projects we want you to measure is it producing fish.

57:07Good stuff. And then the end of the odds cracks me up the final thing in all these orders the cost for publication of this order shall be born by the Department of Commerce. I don't know what that means but I think it's cute that they end these all that way. Donald day, John, it's signed off Donald J Trump the White House September 17th, 2026 now the other executive order it's twin cousin it's fishing cousin executive order. Re invigorating America's hunting heritage starts out similar way this one's more flowering this was a different writer this writer starts out section one purpose and policy section one it's very flowery. Trump didn't write this. He says I think he wrote it there would be the word is a word in an inigma. So American hunters anglers and landowners are the greatest conservationist the world has ever known hunting promotes healthy and robust animal populations conserves our conserves our beautiful wildlife for future generations and ensures that every American can enjoy our rugged diverse and untamed frontier areas.

58:22It says our forefathers looked with awe on our vast prairies towering mountains serene deserts coastal paradises and rushing rivers. It says that same awe not the language you'd expect from the White House it says that same awe motivates millions of Americans to invest billions of dollars and countless hours into stewarding our history. So our land and conserving our wildlife now again this this is all or 99% good news and I'll tell you where the 1% might be a little bit weird. But the above stand I have to point out and celebrating these executive orders I have to point out that there's a rub here there's like a contradiction here. We just talking about the awe the wilderness quality okay untamed frontier. The same email I got someone a bunch of people sent me this executive order I also got this executive order from the external affairs team at the White House and in this thing in this email and the body the email.

59:33There's a reminder about a bunch of things that came out of the White House that I feel were assaults on the untamed frontier areas okay. Also coming out of the White House was an executive order to unleash American energy right that opened up hundreds of millions of acres of federal lands and waters to energy development and also took out a lot of regulatory checks on those developments not great for hundreds of anglers. In August 26th Department of Agriculture took action to rescind the 2001 roll this rule alright on 45 million acres of national forest system really bad for hundreds of anglers. So that untamed wilderness those are things that people do to tame the untamed wilderness it's spirit of the unwild. But I don't want that to totally track from all of the good news found in here. There's a sentiment expressed in this executive order up top that is pause not not puzzling but it says despite this legacy accessing federal lands for hunting has never been harder.

1:00:41Hunting opportunities our nation have declined due to the federal government's regulatory overreach confusing and inconsistent access policies and heavy handed restrictions okay. But then right off it gets really detailed with really great news it's just good news alright it instructs within 90 days the secretary of the interior is directed to allow for hunting within the castle mountain. National monument and creators of the moon national monument preserve an Idaho. So boom right off the bat while I'm saying good news it's like boom there's 21,000 acres of new hunting access in California and potentially hundreds of thousands of acres of hunting access in Idaho. When these monuments were created they did the worst thing you can do with a monument which is hand them over to the park service the park service and puts park rules on them and cuts out hunters.

1:01:41The orders guided by an idea that unregulated hunting is incompatible or sorry the park service perspective is that regulated hunting is somehow incompatible with monument status which is totally bogus. In the order confronts this had on it says I have determined that appropriately managed hunting would not put the objects of historic and scientific interest that these monuments protect at risk. Boom it's like it is it's flawless the only flaw it has is that it didn't strip gates of the Arctic the gates of the Arctic National Park away from the park service. Are you familiar with craters of the moon yes it's like very barren land sure a lot of it is like how many alchardier actually going to be killed there does a man does a man. Does a matter doesn't matter doesn't matter I'm just saying you think some dude hunting is going to mess up those rocks no there's no reason there's no reason that they should have ever gone and said you know what's not compatible with all these really hard rocks is hunting.

1:02:55It doesn't matter to say that it's open up like hundreds of thousands of acres in Idaho to hunting would be like well now we're going to let people Elkond in Florida you know. No it's not like that does just like you think I don't really I'm not even like interested in your opinion on this. It's a Frank it doesn't matter. Why would you have excluded it in the first place if there's nothing there especially. Yeah go for it it's just like okay does not going to be a lot of Elkondier killed there that's what if you came and said to me hey you know what we're going to for a year give you exclusive access to this hundreds of thousands of acres. I'm going to go kill a boon of rocket me. Somebody's going to yeah yes it doesn't matter it's not your call to make these are going to be the good old days of craters of the moon hunting for like these next couple seasons. The moon is like a geologic feature I'm talking like a little crystal sitting there on the pedestal right it's a geological feature miles of lava rock lava rock.

1:03:55I see what you're saying Spencer but no there elk and coyotes roam the area prom horns also cross the monument predators include bobcats mountain lines red boxes and badger Spencer what are you saying doesn't matter. I'm guessing the state already has their boundaries drawn for units this year like I would assume no big game is going to be killed there in 2026 but I don't know might miss the season. Yeah but it's it's great news because it is bullshit that hunters got pushed out of those areas it has no impact has no impact. Okay there's all there's here's another thing it's it's a funny one to choose that's all there's 150 national monuments or something to be like go hunt craters of the moon. All right I expect more to come okay I expect more to come like I said a really good move but I just been explained to me that we're taking active congress. Gate to the Arctic National Park should have never been handed to the park so it's ever. It's a park that gets about like a visitor a year.

1:04:57I was reading this being like please please please but someone said it's not it's not an executive order thing. Castle mountains I'm not familiar with maybe that place is crawling with the I got a friend I have a dear friend and one day I was trying to explain to him. Cover gone this one is segments going too long. I have a dear friend and one day I was explaining him I was trying to explain him he's like he's like a he's like a absolute he's like a Republican abs ludist. I was trying to explain to him when I'm like yeah but like there's a lot of issues where there's a lot of issues where democrats tend to have our side. Habitat protections and like and I get it I get it but it's just more complicated than what you're making it and he said to me. I'll never agree with what you're saying he says democrats have taken away from me everything in this world that I love. And when he told me the things that he loved one of them was hunting the mohavi desert.

1:06:00So no matter who's whether you got republicans or democrats there's always little gifts they can give you the same way when you're a kid you know what to go to your mom about and you know what to go to to your dad about. Right you learn this would be a good thing to go to my mom about. This would be the kind of thing I go to my dad about republicans and democrats are like that hunters and anglers ones your mom ones your dad this is the I don't want to say the dad stuff. This is the one of them stuff this is the one of them stuff. Where are we I'm trying to move fast. Here's the potential rub. Here's a potential rub. Allow for the construction repair and maintenance of infrastructure that provides access to federal land for the purpose of outdoor recreation and wildlife management. The second thought here that that is followed up by this line improve public access to difficult to access federal lands and waters by prioritizing practical access opportunities.

1:07:12But then list good things it lists including voluntary access easements land exchanges cooperative agreements with state and local governments and other tools. That respect private property rights. Here's the only area in all this stuff that could be causing trouble because I would hate for the sentiment here to get hijacked by people who just want more roads and they'll get those roads anyway they can get them. If someone's like dude I want to build roads because I have in my mind that we're going to do a mine down the road now I like I just like a pro road guy I look at wilderness is wasted real estate they might look and go like oh sweet. Yeah that's I'm going to tie my shit into this. Attacking the like the federal wilderness area program like scary. But it's not. I know if you're if you're an eye that makes me nervous but there's nothing in here that says that's what's going to happen it doesn't have to say it.

1:08:16So only like I said this is either 100% good news or it's 99% good news and I said where to the 1% that's the park that's the sentence. Yeah that I'm like I don't know. I don't know. Man I've been in all kinds of dicey backcountry scenarios in my life in fact a couple weeks ago we had a bad scare and we thought we were in a situation when we're going to need to call in a helicopter because of one of our people with us having a pretty bad injury thankfully things worked out but it gets you to think on X just rolled out on XSOS it's powered by Overwatch rescue here's what it is for 49 99 a year you got a direct line to a professional rescue court. The next one will rescue coordinator 24 seven operates in 220 countries is something goes wrong deep in the bush or miles from the nearest road they manage the rescue and cover your evacuation costs no claims no deductibles it works right alongside your satellite messenger which can be your phone garment spot or Zolio add on XSOS for peace of mind for your next adventure.

1:09:26Moves fast at American military university they're ready to help you keep up am used flexible affordable online programs in cyber security I.T. space studies and more are designed for service members veterans and their families. AMU provides the support you need to take the next step wherever life takes you American military university made for what's next learn more at AMU dot AP us dot EDU slash military you ever got that feeling you're stuck inside staring at screens and a primal urge kicks in you crave wide open spaces fresh air the chance to connect with the land well maybe it's time to find your own place of the wild but searching for property can be a maze that's where land dot com comes in they got millions of listings across the country from mountain ranches to hidden fish and holes their search tools are like a season to guide helping you narrow down what you want land dot com isn't just about buying and selling it's about finding a place hunt fish explore or simply sit by a campfire and listen to the cricket so head over to land dot com today to turn one day into today because trust me there's nothing to do.

1:10:44Nothing quite like the feeling of standing on your own piece of earth. Here's a good one. This is just like a okay encourage the use of qualified volunteers to manage wildlife populations and invasive species great. Put hundreds into the game when you got when you're hiring sharp shooters to go kill white tails in suburban areas because the suburban people are afraid of dudes hunting deer with their bows screw them. Or when they're trying to get mountain goats out of certain parks you got jumped through all these hoops all these different programs of like if you have hunters that want to go do it let hunters that want to go do it do the work rather than paying government agents to go do it. Put the stuff in people's freezers is that a putting in landfills sure. There's some other stuff there's some grace up for veterans in here though that permit the use of traditional lead ammunition. Oh did I miss that one I'm assuming that's directed at like wildlife refugees where you can't. You're you're head of me.

1:11:44No you know what I know you jump you jump way ahead I thought. Authorize the use of assistive technology on access trails and hunting locations okay. Handicap restrictions like a veteran that's a double amputee having access opportunities to when people say assistive technology that is technology is meant to support. Handicapped individuals who's going to argue against that it's good news good news for veterans and others permit the use of traditional lead ammunition and tackle. Pretty much yes pretty much yes the fishing sinker thing is a joke. The fishing sinker things a joke there are some areas where there are some areas and condor recovery areas there are some areas where we should not be using lead ammunition and condor recovery areas because when you have such a small population of birds a couple of those birds dying from lead is a population level impact where you have a demonstrable population level impact from.

1:12:49Consuming lead led should be looked at in restriction should be considered where it's population level impact but if it's a wildlife refuge in Nebraska it says you got to use. Non lead ammunition for deer hunting yeah that's kind of when no one can point to any population level impact and be like cars hit more hawks then get killed by lead ammunition but we're not talking about banning cars right. There's another one assistive really like this must be someone this is there's one of these in here that's got to be that someone just got a case of the ass about something listen to this one. This is got to be coming from some guy that had like someone's ear and he's like you know what burns my ass is listen to this one. Agriculture the secretary of agriculture shall review high demand for service administered river access lotteries and shall initiate the reform of such lotteries to prioritize US citizens including prior unsuccessful applicants in prohibit the use of automatic computer entries into the lot lotter.

1:14:02Amen it's ridiculous that Americans are waiting in line for permits to float their own rivers and those permits are going to foreigners 100% but just again it's got to be someone which is he's there's some dude can't get a get a get a grand canyon permit and he's like how in the world. Is some dude from Paris floating out there river that's what I'm saying about cradders the moon there's some guy who knows about a 400 inch bull like one of a dozen elk that lives there is like you know we should actually last until there it burns his ass he's going to get that that wapper bull but I still like that stuff there's one about the to be long time max the one and only max bar the smartest man in the dark swamps track this one down for me. Just one about season setting for migratory water fall. It's largely clear it's a clerical issue I don't want to he reached out to some contacts one of the contacts I didn't tell him I was going to read his thing I'm not going to say his name one of max's contacts in the duck conservation world said to max this morning my understanding is this just cuts out.

1:15:19Basically the way I want to read his thing because it's long basically migratory bird seasons always get canceled every year and they have to be reset every year and it creates this whole clerical issue it's cleaning up a clerical it's it's cleaning up a season setting behind the scenes paperwork issue that isn't going to be felt by water fall hunters it's just an annoyance here's a big one though. Maybe the not the biggest one maybe the biggest one within a year of this order. I'm a wide takes a year within a year of this order the secretary of the interior shall encourage state fish and wildlife agencies to promote and expand Sunday hunting opportunities on state and federal lands amen that's just a joke I understand it as states have taken steps to loosen Sunday hunting restrictions there's can be a lot of.

1:16:19Leg where those restrictions are sort of encoded into land management agencies in a state might loosen in the federal or state management agency might not follow suit quickly like their Sunday restrictions stay after the states goes away but that just that stuff has to be just like flat out Sunday hunting restrictions just have to go away they will they're going away. Grown a new generation of hunters. Interior's got no secretary labor secretary education they got 90 days. To clean up messes they've created about federal education funding for archery and hundred education programs and schools one of the things they're talking about is this whole like this whole anti gun thing is created as proud that like you can't train kids and hunter safety in schools because somehow someone do a dumb thing with guns. There that's got to go away. I took my hunter's head was through my school.

1:17:22It was very easy to do you did a hunter's head through school. Within 180 days of the order identify opportunities incentives to assist states and cultivating hunting traditions among American youth and veterans. Begin opportunities and adaptive sports grant program so yes helping disabled handicapped individuals have hunting opportunities promoting robust game species populations all kinds of good stuff in here. Helping people helping landowners with voluntary removal or reductions of barriers to wildlife movement habitat connectivity you got a rancher. He's got antiquated fencing he's got whatever it's a barrier to wildlife habitat he wants it cleaned up doesn't have the means to get it cleaned up let's get it cleaned up. Reduction of invasive species habitat degradation disease and other factors contributing to population declines so just getting after it on taking care of some of the stuff the details are missing the money is missing but the directives are clear it's good the directives are good we'll see if it gets carried out.

1:18:36Targeted management here's a tricky one I'm surprised that like the guardian and Washington Post aren't having a total shit fit about this one targeted management of predators competing species and other population limiting factors. Okay use of prescribed fire vegetation management water development grazing agricultural practices appropriate habit habitat management tools. And seeking voluntary agreements with landowners and agricultural producers around habitat improvements. There's a big thing about increasing wild game donation that it's just not my thing. That one's way cool I eat that stuff what's that that one's way cool okay. They're everybody about it well they are they promote that wild game should be given to schools and fed the kids. Yeah, emerging emergency food assistance program. That's yeah that would help with the white tail deer over population issue. That's what they talk about in the next one okay. No you're right it does. I'm sorry I should have been more enthusiastic because even uses it the words are carefully chosen chosen.

1:19:46They're saying use pitman Roberts and funds to manage hyper abundant populations of wildlife especially white tail deer. Through activities that facilitate the donation and processing of wild game for consumption and schools and food banks okay you're right I'll just get toward the end I'm very aware of how much time I burned up that's good stuff. I just think it's like a creative thing a lot of this is like yeah feels kind of common sense like yeah it should have always been that way. And this one's like where those sharpshooters do what's happened to the meat from the sharpshooters probably nothing is fun. And as much as in these areas that have hyper abundant white tail populations to the point where it's causing habitat degradation and disease transmission the more you can lubricate the wheels for people to get those deer off the landscape and put to good use. Yeah, sure you're right I don't know why I poop hooded and again the cost of publications or shall be born by department interior. Commerce had to pay for the other email. Interior pays for this email. Cool.

1:20:47On to the wolf desk take my glass. We hit Molly's pack I don't know how long ago was that month ago a couple weeks ago. Molly's pack is a Yellowstone National Park's last original wolf pack from the introduction that occurred. They're their lineages from the original introduction in the mid 90s. I don't want to get into it but let me let me at least get through this part. Molly's pack is mostly they left months ago they left and went on to public land in the Shashone National Forest five adults five pups. And the Shashone National Forest and these absorb a range. They're named after a US Fish and Wildlife Service Director Molly Beatty who died of cancer during that original introduction. But and everyone was worried they left that their hunters were going to get them wolf that kids are very up in arms that Wyoming should somehow change their wolf hunting regulations to like carve out exceptions for Molly's pack.

1:22:05People were going crazy about it. Okay. Okay. Can you imagine how stupid it is to say oh Bob the elk is over there. We need to change the state's hunting rules so that nothing happens to Bob the elk. Yep. Yeah. Oh, I'm like for sure it was it was crazy. It would never happen. No. It's ridiculous. Anyway, they're mostly back in the park. Five adults five pups were about six months old and that's when they're like old enough kind of crews and travel with the adult wolf. So they're back in there. The worry from the wolf advocates was that Wyoming's wolf hunting season opened on September 15th and they were still kind of out there outside of the park. Um, these why it's interesting to me that they're quick these wild there's wolf out because very quick to point out it comes up all the time that Molly's pack matriarch is 12 years old.

1:23:14So like one of the oldest wolves on record but some for some reason that makes them even more special. She's walking dead. Right. Two and a half times older than the average lifespan of the wolf. So cool for her, but I don't think you know you carve out exceptions for animals based on how old the I'd be like it's like Biden should stay present because he's so old. Um, so the local hunt area, do we have that map. Yeah, there it is. So they were in the Clarks for wolf hunt area and sunlight basin. Reach that's four wolf limit within days and got shut down so that you know that they're they went back in the park. They made it back without getting killed. I, I didn't get the picture but in an article I read there was a picture of the trailhead in sunlight basin packed with hunters horse trailers.

1:24:17Like they were in there looking for them. No, yeah, because that one dude was offering bounties on hunters. Well, no, no, you're there's the other dude who who like what a bounty on publicly said he is going after the matriarch. He's going to get the mate, which I thought was kind of kind of weird. Um, are you serious? Like, like dudes were like, but it was also general big game or not. It was our season. Yeah. But like it was packed like I'm not saying it's not true. Right, right. I believe you. Um, the Wyoming fishing game agency that they like to point out that wolf hunting is a notoriously difficult pursuit on average Wyoming's hunters devote about 500 days of effort per animal they kill. Like which I mean, there's 500 days worth of hunter effort for every year to get killed. Like so that means like you're spending how many years trying to get one because you're not hunting 500 days.

1:25:22No, no, you're reading that wrong. Oh, I got you. So 500 hunters one day or yeah, like 500 days. So if you look up all the days of hunter effort. Yep. And all the wolves killed you have five like hunters collectively are spending 500 days of field for every wolf killed. Um, however, statewide, um, 10 of the 22 wolves that can be killed in the trophy management area that surrounds the park. That they were killed in the first week of the season. Um, so they got after it pretty quick. But no one got this big famous wolf. No one got her or kids or brothers or sisters. Um, so if they stay in the park, they're off limits. But who knows they may run into trouble if they want to rest on the show. And then I saw it quoted in the Idaho statesman or something when it was like, man, I don't like Wyoming can't capitulate.

1:26:22But I bet this and I was like, I hope those wolves go backward. It came from right just to avoid all the BS. Yeah, it would, it would be like national level. No, my craziness. If it, if it did happen, it'd be like that sea civil lion program all over the man. Right. Yeah. Right. You know, and if one of the, if one gets shot near the border of the park, I, you know, maybe that won't be such a big deal. But we'll see what happens if a collared one gets shot. It's going to, people are going to raise hell about it. So there you go. That, that kind of saga is kind of over for right now. Yeah. We'll talk about it again in like nine months. Yeah. Yeah. We're going from Yellowstone National Park all the way to Pennsylvania. Yeah. And we're going to talk about elk that we're introduced to Pennsylvania from Yellowstone National Park. What a little detail there, man. Um, Michael Skavarla, apartment hill to Pennsylvania killed a big old giant bull elk.

1:27:22And he's a goodness. Did he? Elk was eight by eight typical that scored a 400 green, a green scored 428 inches. This, this elk was taken on September 15th during the archery season. And he shot it with a crossbow. And it's potentially, well, it, I say potentially because it's green scored hasn't hasn't had the time to dry yet, but it's going to be the news. It's not going to shrink 50 inches. Yeah. The last, the previous holder, get it with a bow bow or was he using the crossbow? Uh, I don't know that. But the previous, you shattered that. Yeah. The previous archery state record for Pennsylvania is 381. Low over 381, which is a green scored at 428. The by time it shrinks. I don't know how, I don't know how many inches it loses when it shrinks, but it's going to blow that out of the water. And it's, it's going to beat the number one typical fire arms category elk to which is 407 inches.

1:28:27Wow. We're just surprising that the, it's only 407 for fire arms. We were talking earlier that the next world record could definitely come out of Pennsylvania. Yep. Yep. But so the, for the archery season this year, there was only, what was it? There's 15 bull tags for the archery season. Um, we're issued to 50,000 lottery applicants. God, that's why I don't draw it. Yeah, that's why. I was wondering why I don't draw that. Um, Phil hit the next photo. So this is, I showed that one earlier. You didn't find that on his, his, uh, apparel steed. Get a onesie on. Dude, that's the greatest suit in the world. Yeah. This photo was sent to me through a friend. Um, that, that this one was, I think kind of making his rounds, but, um, yeah, giant elk.

1:29:27Oh, but Phil, if you go to the video, oh, sure. This is a bowl that I got trail cam, but the video of on my family's property. Damn. That's the world, which I think will blow that one out of the water. It is on this trail camera that Seth has set up on his grandpa's place. It is non stop. And his grandma's been putting in since they brought elk into the state. Look at that thing. That was two weeks ago. Yeah. Dude, it's just like you can't keep track of all these bulls come. No. That's called pond cam. Yep, that's pond cam. But yeah, those bulls come in there to, to wallow and drink and. Seth gets videos of them coming and just ripping bugles in front of the camera. Like insane bulls that you'll never see. I know. I'm waiting right now for a video to come through of a bowl that's just bugling right in front of the camera that I was hoping to come through before. Yeah, like for this bunch of like, I don't know, three, nine bees, 400 inch bulls. Yep. But this bull was killed in center county, which is same county where that trail cam video was.

1:30:34And. Oh, let's see. It was, it was so this guy's a professor of Penn State. He didn't have a whole lot of time and drew a tag of a lifetime. So he went with a guide trophy wreck lodge. And they hunted for a couple days ran into several bulls bugling the one morning. And this bull ended up coming in. And he shot his 40 some yards with crossbow. I'd give up two of my kids. Which one? I don't want to get into that. Yeah, I don't want him to feel bad. I'd give up two of my kids. I'd keep one, give two away from one of the mount tags. Yeah, and you know, the general or you know, the regular firearm season is yet to happen in Pennsylvania. So I'd be curious to see if this one gets this record gets broken. I'm not sure if it's possible. Yep.

1:31:34Wearing a vintage camel pattern that I can't identify. I've been trying to reverse Google image search end for like 10 minutes. And I can't come up with. Who the maker that is? You know, be sweet if he gave us that onesie for the auction house body. Oh, yeah, that'd be great. Like if he would, if you're listening, that might be the only camel. You own. If you're listening, no, here's a deal. We're traded listening. We trade. If you send us that onesie for the auction house bodies, we will send you a complete. We'll send you a complete cold weather and complete warm weather kit. Uh-huh. If you'll send us that onesie for the auction house bodies. Yeah. That would be great. I need to identify what this pattern is. Yeah. So if you're listening, I have a deal for you. All right. We're going to end the show with an interview with Montana representative, former Navy SEAL Ryan Zinkie, who's going to talk about he came into the studio. The other studio, and we sat and talked about something called a river runs through it act.

1:32:34And the conversation mostly gets into the question of, um, how can you find compromised solutions for vexing land management issues? So check that out. See you next week. Think about when you're out hunting with your bodies, okay? And you're all kind of working the same area, but you're split up. You're trying to figure out to my buddy over going that area. Whereas yet, he's trying to explain where he is. You're worried about bumping into each other. You got safety concerns. You're out hunting together, but you're not quite together. Well, there's a feature to fix this. All right. It's an on-x hunt feature called location sharing. It lets up to 10 people in your group see each other's live positions on the same map, refreshing about every five seconds. So if I'm out hunting with my kids and a couple of their friends, I know where they're all at. They know where I'm at. It's great. You can split up to cover more ground. When it's time to link back up, you just check the map instead of guessing. It's fully opt in, okay?

1:33:35Location day that disappears the moment your session ends. It's all upside. Available now to premium and elite members. Get connected in the on-x hunt app. And if you don't already run the hunt app, trust me. When I tell you, it'll change the way you hunt. It is the most important app on my phone. Get it today at your app store. Life moves fast at American military university. They're ready to help you keep up. AMUs flexible, affordable online programs in cyber security, IT, space studies, and more are designed for service members, veterans, and their families. AMU provides the support you need to take the next step wherever life takes you. American military university made for what's next. Learn more at AMU.APUS.edu slash military. You ever get that feeling? You're stuck inside, staring at screens, and a primal urge kicks in.

1:34:36You crave wide open spaces, fresh air, the chance to connect with the land. Well, maybe it's time to find your own piece of the wild, but searching for property can be a maze. That's where land.com comes in. They got millions of listings across the country from mountain ranches to hidden fishing holes. Their search tools are like a season to guide helping you narrow down what you want. Land.com isn't just about buying and selling. It's about finding a place to hunt, fish, explore, or simply sit by a campfire and listen to the cricket. So head over to land.com today to turn one day into today because trust me, there's nothing quite like the feeling of standing on your own piece of earth. All right, everybody, we're jumping over to a conversation with Ryan Zinkie. So Ryan Zinkie is a congressman for Western Montana, former secretary of the interior, retired Navy CEO commander. Throughout his career, this guy has been very tangled up in public lands, issues, outdoor issues.

1:35:38He's joining us here in the twilight of his congressional career, which ends what this January. It does. And you're a free man in January. I am free of this vocation, free of this vocation, January. We had a representative Zinkie on before. He was theodore Roosevelt Conservation Partnerships. He won the James D. Range Award in 2025, and I was present there as a board member. And actually, there had helped hand him the award. And that was around his work on public lands advocacy during some important times around public lands. This year, Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation's Excellence in Advocacy. That's 2026 reward and award and Safari Club International's legislature, legislative or of the year award in 2026. I'm seeing a lot of recognition for his work on public lands issues from the hunting and angling communities. And what we're going to talk about right now is a thing that I've been reading about.

1:36:40I don't fully totally understand it all, but it's been passed around a bit. Is the a river runs through it act. Absolutely. Tell me about this. And I know from that this issue is a long has had a long. It has had a long issue over 20 years going to making around Celia Lake, the Swan, Big Barrow Waldenous, Skate Goat. And then it combined the Lincoln area that they've been working about 13 years. And this is a made in Montana solution. You know, and we live in an political environment where it's so partisan. And we fight about everything. But in Montana, you know, our public lands, the debate has always been on how to manage it between the mirrors, that, you know, Waldenous and let's say the pin shows with multiple use. And then you have extremes on both sides on it.

1:37:40But this is this is a solution that looks at landscape and understands the importance of the outdoors. The reason why we live in the West is because we have outdoor experience. And we were given the outdoors experience largely from the great ones, Roosevelt and show and mirror, looked at the landscape inside. This needs to be protected and cultivated for the next generation. So what this bill does is it takes a look at Waldenous areas, it takes a look at Waldenous study areas. And when you have the Waldenous society in the same room as the snowmobiles, you got the back packers. You got the outfitters. You got the logging guys. And they all came together and said, you know what? The outdoor experience is different for all of us, but all of us understand the importance of it. So can we look at better ways of management? And so we had Tracy Manning from the World of the Society.

1:38:42And with the snowmobiles guys sitting in the same room, you know what? That's worked together. From the snowmobiles perspective, they want public access. And they want corridors rather than going to point aid and turning around and coming right back to the same trail. So they want trails connect. Well, you know, so do a lot of people. So do a lot of people that do, you know, skiing and hiking and et cetera. And on our forest themselves, I think there was a concurrence that we shouldn't allow them to burn down every year all the time. Can we manage our forest better? So from a logging perspective, you know, you can go in in harvest timber. You can cut a road in temporarily if you're going to do a prescribed burn. Because a prescribed burn, so it doesn't get out of hand, requires safety equipment. So when you do it, you do it right with the right science, the right people, the right equipment, you get the burn done. And then you can remove the road if necessary. But a lot of it is focuses on public access.

1:39:44So what were the, but on that thing there, what were the wilderness society people in the room for? Well, because we looked at areas, remember when a wilderness study area, that's it in the sun. This could confuse people, but I'm sure you can explain it. Yeah, a wilderness study area is administrative administrative in, you know, a category not by Congress, but it's a wilderness study area administratively put in place. But you have to manage it as if it is a wilderness. Yeah. And Congress is the only one that can designate a wilderness. Yeah. So Congress actually is going to do their job and look at some wilderness study areas that were probably well according to this bill. They looked at them carefully. They should not be designated as a wilderness. But you can do backpacking, you can do outfitting, you can cut a trail, you can manage the forest better than let it burn down. There's areas around the scapegoat and around the Bob Marshall.

1:40:45It makes sense. The wilderness study areas, that's permanently put this in part of the wilderness because that's what wilderness is for. Yeah, can I, can I button on this because this is important. I just want to make sure people get people that live outside of the west get this distinction where wilderness with the capital W is like federally designated wilderness. So when we say wilderness, they don't just mean like the woods or the mountains, but like it's a federal designation. And we're going to manage it as a wilderness. No wheels, no combustion engines. There's a lot of restrictions on a wilderness because primarily lightest touch, let nature take its course. Yeah, but within that for years now, we've had these study areas or was the term use of wilderness study areas. Yes, the study areas and there's sort of, and I don't know if it would be if it's how you would describe it, but a lot of the study areas are sort of in limbo. And there are plenty of people who would like to see all the study areas go the other direct go one way.

1:41:47There are plenty of people who would like to see all them go to wilderness. And then there are the pragmatic ones who envision that at some point in time there will be some compromises made. That's right. And they will ease into that they will be moved into the wilderness category or they'll be moved into a more general national forest category. And so here and there now and then you see little chunks of this puzzle get resolved because the limbo can't last. It should not last. Yeah, but it should be based on again, this is a Montana made solution. So you had the local ranchers, you had the timber folks, you had the snowmobiles, you had the wilderness people, you had the recreational people all come together and say, you know, we honor the landscape of these two important areas. So how do we make sure that we can harvest timber? How can we make sure the previous wilderness study areas? How do we make sure that they're protected and and manage because there's a reason why they became wilderness study areas to study to determine whether or not they meet the requirements and conditions to actually be a wilderness.

1:42:57The rest of the wilderness, Congress makes that decision. But out in the last what can happen is you have a superintendent that puts something in a wilderness study area, you know, designation. And then it stays there forever. And if you would get uneasy about how it's going to break. Well, there's restrictions. So you won't be able to take a vehicle in, you won't be able to take a snowmobile in, you won't take a wheel in or if you were to do a prescribed burn, you can't put the safety equipment in. Or if you're going to do trail maintenance, you're not going to be, you're not going to allow to use a chainsaw, for instance, you'd have to do a buckseye. It takes a lot of buckseye, you know, to clear a trail after a wind storm, as you know. So what this does is it looks at a landscape view. It brings corridors for wildlife movement back and forth. It looks at trailheads to make sure the trails connect between the different categories of land. But it really is a solution.

1:43:59It's not perfect. But there's 20 years of effort of people working together. And how do you, how do you break through the partisan lines? Well, you find something that you're passionate about on both sides. And then you get together and then you have to work through trust. Because now you're working together for a common goal and you're going to have to trust the, your, your groups in there to make sure they articulate what's important to them. But also they're willing to give a little. And in every case in this, you know, this bill, which is the river runs through it, that paints a picture as well. Is it there's something for everybody. Someone gave up a little in order to gain a lot. And again, it's, it's about understanding how important the outdoor legacy is. And I think this will, it can be a model for naturally, for, you know, nationally use. Because there are issues in Utah, there's issues in Idaho and the West.

1:45:00There's always issues between a lot of it is how to manage our lands. I think this is a pretty good model of how to constructively get to a solution that benefits everybody. With this, with this arrangement as you, as you're talking to people about it, you got guys like me and I would have been. If, if, if I was emperor of the, the, the nation, I would have just from my perspective, I would have said like I'm going to take all experimental wilderness and I'm just going to make it all wilderness. I'm a big wilderness guy. You got other people who would have wanted to go the other way and like ditch it all. If you look at the, in striking this compromise, who do you feel? Of the people that are still not happy, who is margins, but who is most not happy? I would say most not happy that people that believe the federal government shouldn't have a federal estate at all. And then on the other side is that public lands are really not for the public, therefore other species.

1:46:06Yeah. You have those two extremes. Yeah. Now, you know, we're in each would like their position articulated differently, but from here, I understand. But I'll give you an example. The wilderness society. I know on a wilderness study area. I looked at it and said, no, this is going to be a wilderness. This is our position. The, the snowmobile is said, you know what, we would like to transit across this, that connect our trails. Now, those are two different views. Yeah. You know what happened? They came together. Yeah. You know what? This is a great corridor to bring, bring back and forth. And all by the way, this other area, we're going to designate that and connect it to the Bob Marshall. Because it makes, it makes sense to protect that watershed. Yeah. And then on, on designation of, let's say, outfitting. Well, outfitters need to go in there, but they also need a trail clear. So they can use trail, a clearing method, you know, during the season.

1:47:06All right. And to make sure that the trail and public access is there. And that's an important part of it, looking at the landscape. But the, at the end of the day, you know, these two areas are special. You know, Lewis and Clark had much the same view in a lot of these different areas. And now what we have done is we've, we've looked at what's important, how to manage it, to make sure that your children and your children's children can have the same landscape view that was given to us, that Lewis and Clark shared. I understood. I think that when it comes to the kind of compromise you're talking about, kind of the best way is articulated to me down the road. And this isn't so much the particulars of this arrangement, but just this, this idea of compromise would be, people would look at the wilderness study areas. And you'd be like, well, why not just wait, why not just wait until the right moment when they can all be wilderness? And people go, you might wait for that moment and wind up, you wind up in the opposite moment.

1:48:11Right? Like, waiting isn't a guarantee that it's going to go how you want it. And so people, you know, I've had a lot of people explain to me, a great compromise. Now, where everybody can have a voice is better than the alternative of trusting that you're going to hit where it's going to go all your way. Because it might go all the other way. So we can find opportunities to find a solution that is acceptable to a broad group. Like, there's an argument that those are the moments to seize upon. Well, and, you know, again, we were given what we have. I think the challenge in the next 100 years is how to manage it. Yeah. Next 100 years is looking at wildlife corridors to make sure winter ranges connect to summer ranges. Correct. Sure that you have movement, but also public access. And on some of these wilderness study areas, they're managed for a healthy forest. But the consensus was all groups left and right and middle, you know, don't want to see these catastrophic forest fires, you know, burn at the scale they're burning and the heat.

1:49:20I mean, in some cases, these forests are burning so high you're not going to see a regrowth of forest for generations. Yeah. They have sterilized the soil. Is that really necessary? Well, let's look at the American conservation ethic. Best science, best practices, greatest good, longest term. That's the American conservation ethic. So how do we, how do we get there so we don't have these catastrophic fires? Well, we'll look at the geography and you see, you know what? This area needs to be thin. Do we want to do it mechanically? Do we want to do it harvesting timber? Or is it prescribed burned more appropriate? But it prescribed burned. Let's make sure it's a prescribed burn and not out of control burn. Like we did with a Wheeler home, you know, in the Glacier Park and they had, you know, a recent fire in the Grand Canyon, which burned up, you know, historic sites and buildings. I don't think we want to go there again. So we can use best science and best practices and come up with a solution.

1:50:21So we have a healthy forest in those areas that need to be protected in a different degree in wilderness, lightest possible footprint. You can still hunt. You know, you can graze in a lot of wilderness. But sometimes grazing isn't going to reduce the load of dead and dying timber and fuel. So maybe prescribed burn is more appropriate. Again, when you do a prescribed burn, you should do the right safety equipment to make sure it stays in that prescribed box and doesn't get out of hand. That may require a temporary road to be put in a temporary road. Could we be removed after the prescribed burn? At least so you can get the equipment in there or evacuate, you know, the firefighters are in the ground, you know, doing that burn. So tell me how something like this, tell me how something like this works from this point on because you go in, you go in and there's this long simmering issue.

1:51:21People want it resolved. You talk to the local people and get these different user groups you're talking in and you're like, I understand you, you ideally would want this and you on the earth said would ideally want this. Here's a, here's a workable solution that addresses everybody's concerns. Then what you give it a name, you know, well, you're putting the bill. It's an interest as a representative. You represent. So when you represent, you not only represent the people that voted for you, but you also represent the people that didn't vote for you. You represent the people that will never vote for you. So it's important as you represent people because it is about people. You listen. And when such a diverse group of people, again, from snowmobiles and motorcycle guys, the wilderness to timber guys, the outfitters, they're all saying the same, same beat the same message. You know, it's time to then take that those elements.

1:52:22And when you put it into a bill, what does that mean? That means you look at the legal review, you look at what other other laws it affects. So you put it in a bill that's ready, ready to pass. And with this, in this particular case, it's more Montana centric. So how do you get a pass? Well, there's two, two senators. We have two congressmen. You know, all the should should get behind the bill. And all the should convince our peers that this is important to them too. Because that's the part that seems hard to picture is that you, you then got to go to DC. And there's 98 other senators. Yeah, they're not really aware of the issue. And there's 300. A couple of like we'll be opposed to anything that's then federal land other than divesting. Sure. And then you got, I don't even know the number anymore. Hundreds of people that are otherwise unfamiliar. And you got to say, hey, can I get everybody's attention on this thing?

1:53:25Well, you didn't know about till yesterday or today. And then make time for it. Well, I'll give you an example. Never in my life did I ever think that public lands would be at risk of being sold. The argument and the debate has always been about how to manage it. But never, never divesting on scale. Well, it came up this Congress. There was an effort that nearly succeeded in selling off a lot of our public lands without public input review. All those types of things. And I, you know, taking a step back, why? I thought it would be easy. I thought it was going to be like going up San Juan Hill. I had a bunch of guys behind me. Yeah. A little thin. Yeah. And because, you know, public lands is different from different people. If you live on the east, and you say we're not talking about our national parks. Don't worry, our national parks are free of this. Totally different.

1:54:25They're protected. Well, if you're living the east, a lot of your public access and public lands is parks. Because they don't have the huge, you know, tracks of BLM land, you know, Bureau of Land Management Land or US Forest Service Land. So primarily your public, your outdoor experience is national parks. Well, that's great. But when you're out west, national parks are a part of the outdoor experience. And certainly not the whole. In Montana, you have more forest service than you do park land. And when you add the CMR, Charles M. Russell and BLM, a lot of Montana's land is not in a park category. Yeah. And but I was surprised at how few initially picked up the charge on the look. We're not going to sell our public land. Yeah. Now, in, you know, truth when I was secretary, I divested, I added, I subtracted, I exchanged.

1:55:26But the process was public input looked at it. If a school needed to expand a gym and say in New Mexico, okay, that 40 acres, makes more sense for a school. Or there was a runway that need a little more runway because the jets are bigger. Okay. But those are, there's a case by case. Yeah. And there's a process for that. There's a whole process that looks at whether subsurface and Indian rights and all those type of things. But I think our public lands, you know, this is, I think why it turns out I came back to Congress for this purpose. And God had had a mission for me. And the mission in this case was to lead the charge and make sure our public lands, you know, in the next generation are strong as they were in the last generation. When you, when you, there are, not, there are some very vocal Republicans who are generally antagonistic to the public estate.

1:56:27Like, like, like philosophically, philosophically, they're troubled by that the federal government would own so much land or own such a heavy proportion of certain states. Often they will express a frustration about that on these places, management, management tools, and that can mean a bunch of things to different people. They'll often express that like management isn't occurring. They're not being properly managed. Right. If you look at a social legitimate, but be in a way, if you look at, I guess the question is, how honest are they? Because if you look at like what you're doing here, where you're, you're looking at this river runs through it act and you're looking at management issues and you're looking at fire mitigation issues, timber harvest, timber reduction, right? Does that really, do you think that you'd have some colleagues who would look and be like, yes, that's what I mean? Or do you feel that they're just using that as a red herring?

1:57:27Well, let's say an example of Libby Montana. You're in a sea of trees as far as the eye can see and you can't harvest a one-of-a-one. Lossuit after lawsuit after lawsuit, judges that would side on for grizzly bears, even though grizzly bears have recovered. Yeah, they like cuts. But they just, they don't look at timber as a legitimate purpose in the woods. Yes. And in this case, we had the timber guys going to look, you know, those trees are going to come out of the woods one way or another. You can mechanically bring them out, you can prescribe burn or you can have these catastrophic burns. So wouldn't it be better to manage how to remove the timber or where, look at the interfaces where you might have a fire thin that area out? Because when the forest burns, I fish, you fish, a lot of sediment will go in those streams.

1:58:30That's not good. Yeah. And the habitat that we're all trying to preserve burns the ground, that's not good either. Yeah. And in some cases, these forests are so hot, it sterilizes the soil. Generationally, you won't have recovery of canopy. Yeah. And you get to add to that, you get situations where you have this massive monoculture and you don't have edge habitats, not all these other things. Absolutely. Then you have disease that runs through, if it's a, you know, monotree, out there you have disease that affects a tree, then the whole forest is going to go. But there is frustration out there. They watch our public access to be diminished. They look at the forest burning up a year after year after year, lack of management, sometimes lack of leadership. And I understand the frustration. You know, if you're on a county road and all of a sudden you have BLM with a lights on and you're thinking, well, there must be a lost kid someplace or maybe it's a bear they're going to warn you about.

1:59:30No, they're going to give me a speeding ticket on a county road. You know, a lot of people deserve to leave so are a little upset about that. But I give the analogy of, okay, you have a hotel and it's terrible management. Well, you don't sell the hotel. Yeah. You get new management and you get to construct the way to manage your forest, you know, back to where they're healthy again. I think everyone wants to walk through a forest as healthy. Some forest walking through should be the lightest touch because nature has its bounty and glory. So, you know, that's why we have wilderness. Now, should we let Bob Marshall burn down the ground all the time and well, you know, that's a discussion that we need to have on fire management on it. In this particular case, we looked at, for instance, world in the study areas and said, you know what, a road or a prescribed burn or management of trails, I think makes more sense.

2:00:30Making sure that there's a parking lot someplace where people can park and have access to go into that makes sense. In some cases, you know, some of the roadless rules should have been a roadless rule. Well, let's look at it, but let's look at case by case. Let's not do these broad canvases of we're just going to put in roads or we're going to remove roads in every inch of federal state. Now, this used best practices, greatest good, longest term, but good science. Why do you need to road in there? Should it be during hunting season? Should have a covert should have used before fire should maintain it in case of fire. All those things need to be considered to make the right decision. Oh, can I do one last super quick question? Yeah. We'll do as quick as possible. Chris, what's going to happen? Is this thing going to pass? Is it going to come up for a vote?

2:01:30It'll pass. Look how well we have two Navy SEALs. We had Tim, she, he, the senator, myself. We don't give up. No, but I think this has enough momentum behind it and enough of passionate people that have worked on, you know, 20 years. Now, fairly confident in the end of the day, this president or next will sign a river runs through it. Thanks for coming on. Thanks for explaining that. Love to hear from, you know, someone has been involved for such a long time on natural resources issues and explaining all that process. People come together. I got to tell you're knocking out of the park. You deliver a message that's got to be delivered and people are enthusiastic about you and your effort and thanks. Thanks for being a patient. Appreciate it. I know you got to run. So we'll let you go. You ever get that feeling the walls closing in the concrete jungle suffocating you?

2:02:49You crave some wide open spaces, the chance to connect with nature, maybe in a spot all your own will head over to land.com. They've got ranches, forest mountain streams. You name it search by acreage. You can search by location. You can search by the kind of hunting and fishing you're dreaming of. Land.com. It is where the adventure begins. Life moves fast at American military university. They're ready to help you keep up. AMUs flexible, affordable online programs and cyber security, IT space studies and more are designed for service members, veterans and their families. AMU provides the support you need to take the next step wherever life takes you. American military university made for what's next. Learn more at amu.apus.edu slash military.

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