Everyone Is Wrong About Pragmata (The Pronatalist Game)

Malcolm & Simone Collins discuss the viral controversy around the game Pragmata — a title that explicitly celebrates fatherhood and pronatalism. Is “dad corn” (games that stimulate parental instincts) as sinful as traditional porn? How should we think about masturbating evolutionary pathways for bonding with children?

In this unfiltered Based Camp episode, they break down:• Why Pragmata triggers leftists• The difference between healthy vs toxic ways to engage with parental instincts• Why gamers actually have more kids than non-gamers (with data)• Hassan’s “gamers are unfuckable losers” take demolished• Deontology vs consequentialism in faith, gaming, and family formation• Historic Christian attitudes toward sex, beauty, and pronatalism

A must-watch for anyone interested in pronatalism, video game culture, evolutionary psychology, and building high-fertility families in the modern world.

Video Game Developer Dads

Here’s the spreadsheet referenced in the episode.

It includes:

* 30 notable male video game developers

* Key games/works

* Father status: Father, Childless, or Unknown

* Children count where available

* Evidence summaries

* Source URLs in both the main sheet and a dedicated Sources sheet

* A Summary sheet with formulas and a pie chart

Summary results:

* Fathers: 20 of 30, 66.7%

* Explicitly childless: 2 of 30, 6.7%

* Unknown/publicly undocumented: 8 of 30, 26.7%

Episode Transcript

Malcolm Collins: [00:00:00] Corn, what it does is all humans, because of evolutionary reasons, have a collection of pathways that cause pleasure when you do things tied to the birthing and rearing of the next generation.

if you’re here saying pragmata is not core, right? Functionally, how is it different? If I’m in my room and I’m playing pragmata, which I’m playing the game, I am fathering a fake child while I have real children downstairs. Mm-hmm. How is that not as ghoulish as masturbating to a fake woman when I have a real wife in the other room?

I, I- Hmm.

Simone Collins: That’s a really good point.

Speaker: And if you’re like, well, it’s not as bad when I engage with it because I don’t have real children yet, and it’s like, well, that’s about the same as saying it’s not as bad when I engage with it because I don’t have a real wife yet.

Anything that distracts from your tasks of [00:01:00] getting one of those things is equivalent in its sinfulness.

Speaker 8: And if you think I mean Stoji and hair splitting here, one, remember, I can’t make the same take on this that every other conservative commentator has had. I’ve got to have something new and fresh, so keep that in mind. But two, , right now, everyone’s so excited because this is the first time they have seen a game that is meant to masturbate the instinct to be a parent and father a child.

And so they are excited about it because some of them didn’t realize they had this emotion.

Speaker 10: And in getting people to realize that yes, playing with children is actually fun and something they want to do and having children of their own is something they want to do is a fundamentally good thing that this game was released. But the warning against the masturbation of this pathway and how toxic it can be is going to be made evidence in the years to come as people can with AI simulate children.

Malcolm Collins: Hello, Simone. I’m excited to be talking with you again after a few days break. Of course, our audience would know that. But we were in [00:02:00] DC talking with political plays and now we are back and there is an episode that everyone’s been asking us to do, and we are not gonna have the take that you imagine on this one which is about the controversy, which has come downstream of a game named Pragmata.

And the controversy basically goes bunch of leftists saw this game and they were either mad at it because they said it promoted pronatalism, which it very explicitly does the first scene in the game before you meet the little girl Android who you’re supposed to form a bond with.

One of the characters is talking about fatherhood and the other guy’s like, “Oh, it must be really hard.” And he’s like, “No, it’s like the best thing ever.” So it’s very explicit. Oh wow. It’s, it’s not like a, “Oh, we accidentally made a game that made people wanna become dads.” It’s the core theme of the game.

Okay. Then some of them are mad because they say that the little girl is sexualized which, I mean, she’s not, although I will say her face design is a little weird to [00:03:00] me. Like, it, it does not look like the face of someone of that age. Do the people who point that out, like, make a point around that.

Speaker 4: If you’re upset that I don’t have the standard conservative take on this game, I, I want to have as true or honest of a take I have to the extent that it is also something new that you haven’t heard before and is intellectually stimulating because if it’s just let’s dunk on progressives for being icked by a game that promotes traditional value systems, that’s boring.

You’ve heard that already, right? So let’s, let’s try to dig a bit deeper than this. But here what I’ve done, just for those of you who have not seen, because her character in the game is supposed to be the equivalent of a six-year-old girl, here is her face next to a bunch of six-year-old girl faces. And I hope you can see that these two things, , they’re not the same.

There’s something off about her design. And, and that’s okay. , But if you have a six-year-old girl, it would be really striking to you. And so it’s weird that conservative [00:04:00] commentators keep saying that there isn’t something off about her design. , To me, it feels dishonest and I don’t like that in our space.

Speaker 5: By the way, if you’re confused as to what looks off about the head, the number one thing is its relative size to the body. Six-year-old girls have heads that are much larger when contrasted with their body than this individual’s head. The second is its thinness and high cheekbones, which are much more adult features.

Um, again, not the game’s fault. They were trying to size down an adult actress, but, , it is very noticeable if you have a six-year-old daughter, .

Speaker 11: By the way, if you think I’m exaggerating here,, I sometimes use AI to age up our children so I can see what they’ll look like when they’re in their 20s or 30s or whatever.

And I did this to my daughter once recently, but the AI made a mistake and only aged up her face. And I have never seen a picture that looks more like the Pragmata girl. , And it’s very creepy in this context because it’s a bit more exact, but you will see she looks more like this than she does a normal human girl of that age.

Malcolm Collins: That said i- [00:05:00] i- i- she clearly was in the story and was in the context of the fan base is not particularly sexualized, except on Reddit. They made a Reddit thread and they had to shut it down because it just was nothing but sexualized, but that’s, you know, Reddit, leftist, blah, blah, blah, they do them, right?

Simone Collins: Well, that’s the internet. The Rule 42, this is ... I don’t understand how that’s weird.

Malcolm Collins: And then the right comes in and they laugh, laugh, laugh at the leftist and they go, “Ha ha ha, so funny.” You see a little girl and you immediately assume that, you know, you should see her as sexual and that’s a self-report and then the right also says like, “Ha ha ha, you know, how...”

That’s basically the core thing the right’s saying in, in, in so many words. And I think so much of the wider conversation is being missed because of this sort of myopic surface layer investigation of this. So the first thing that we’re gonna be exploring in this is the question that has a pretty clear answer.

Is pragmata [00:06:00] corn? And the answer is yes. Just not of the type you are used to consuming. So what makes something corn, right? Like- Yeah,

Simone Collins: well, the people literally, I don’t know if it still exists, but there was a s- subreddit for food, corn and-

Malcolm Collins: No, no, no, no, no, no, no. That’s not what I’m talking about.

I’m not talking about- Different. ... it’s analogous too. Oh. I’m saying it is literally corn.

Simone Collins: Oh my gosh. So- Okay.

Malcolm Collins: Corn, what it does is all humans, because of evolutionary reasons, have a collection of pathways that cause pleasure when you do things tied to the birthing and rearing of the next generation.

Simone Collins: Oh, I see. Where

Malcolm Collins: you’re making this. And there are many types of corn which hit these pathways in different ways. Ooh,

Simone Collins: so like owning a cat or a dog that you overcare for.

Malcolm Collins: Well, I’ve always said that that’s a type of corn. Yeah. But I, I wanna point out that it is not of a type [00:07:00] different than other corn.

There are ... So for example, somebody can say, “Well, it’s not corn because you don’t masturbate to it. “ And I’m like but we say that when women read, you know, sexy monster man books, they very rarely masturbate to those and yet I, I wanna eff a monster is still very clearly corn. There are people say, “Well, people aren’t having sex in it, so it’s not corn.”

And it’s like, well, there’s many categories of fetishes where people don’t have sex be they, you know, foot fetishes, for example, or something, right? Like people aren’t having sex in that and, and yet that would very unambiguously, or they’re like, “Oh, well, that’s not the act.” Okay. What about vor fetishes?

People would say that’s very clearly corn but very clearly no sex is had in that. So, all right, so you can’t loop off corn by saying ... And, and here somebody can say, “Oh, well, no, it’s about the, the, the, whatever the positive emotions you feel [00:08:00] from the images or story or act has to be tied to things that would’ve been actual sexual reproduction for it to be in the category of corn for me.

And it’s like, okay, what did feet have to do with sexual reproduction? Right? Like, there’s a huge variety of things and they’re like, “Well, okay, but that still causes traditional arousal.” And so then here I’d say, “Okay, what about things that don’t cause traditional arousal?” Because here, note, I’m not saying that Pragmata is arousing to, to the core audience and, and what it’s trying to do, but it is trying to hijack a pathway tied to reproduction, right?

So, here you would have something like rope binding and stuff like this. I point out that a lot of people who are into rope binding, they often don’t actually feel arousal from it. They just feel pleasure or comfort from it, the, the feeling of being restrained. And that doesn’t, to us, make that not a type of corn.

And so then the second question is, is, [00:09:00] whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Okay. And, and note here, this is always the understanding that the core pleasure pathway that this is eliciting in guys is, is, I’ll call it dad corn, right? Like it’s the feeling of being a dad, being protective of a kid, making a kid feel good the things that, you know, your ancestors who felt them during certain parts of their lives ended up having more surviving offspring.

So, the, the second question is, and I think this is a more important question is well, then is it immoral? And what, what is your take on this, Simone?

Simone Collins: I don’t think it’s immoral. I think people should understand what it is and that it’s not a replacement for it because- Yeah. ... I think sometimes you, you may be driven to some form of, like, let’s say you really, really, really love, you know, having your pet dog and you take them on walks everywhere and, and well, you know, maybe, maybe this means you kind of want a kid, you know?

And you, you want to be that person who cares for someone else and really makes your life about them,

Malcolm Collins: [00:10:00] Yeah, so I, I think the pet dog is a perfect example here, and this is very in line with the way I feel about erotic material more broadly, corn more broadly and everything like that- Uh-huh.

Is that there are positive and healthy ways to relate to it, and there are negative and toxic ways to relate to it.

Simone Collins: Right. Like trying to lean into it more to fill a void that it will never be able to fill because it’s, it’s not doing the real thing is dangerous, right?

Malcolm Collins: Right. So, pragmata, I would say is largely positive.

It is something that gets people thinking about this. It gets people wanting to do this type of thing.

Simone Collins: Right.

Malcolm Collins: And it has positive externalities because of that, right?

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: It elicits a positive role between a man and his cu- kid. Well,

Simone Collins: here’s, here’s why though, and this is what I think is a key distinction, because you do see this in elect- the, the commentary people streaming this who are like, “Oh my gosh, I think I wanna be a parent.”

This is not a parenting sim game. This is not a game that people who want to, like, [00:11:00] masturbate that part of their desire or- It, it really

Malcolm Collins: is. I have no idea what you’re saying, Simone.

Simone Collins: Well, you think people are buying Pragmata because they wanna-

Malcolm Collins: Yes. ...

Simone Collins: explore parenthood?

Malcolm Collins: Yes.

Simone Collins: Really?

Malcolm Collins: Yes. Yes. I

Simone Collins: thought it was supposed

Malcolm Collins: to

Simone Collins: be a really gold main game.

Malcolm Collins: If you, if you didn’t want to do that, Simone, that would literally be as completely bizarre- Yeah. ... as buying a game that the cover had like a sexy Fox girl on it was big breasts and then you start playing it and you’re like, “I didn’t want a game with a sexy Fox girl with big breasts in it. “ Like that’s the entire point of the game.

If you, if you open up the sexy Fox Girl was big breast game and it’s a burly man, you’re gonna be like, “This isn’t what I wanted.” If you open up the little- No,

Simone Collins: see, I thought it was something else. I thought people wouldn’t call it like a psyop for prenatalism if it’s stated purpose-

Malcolm Collins: No, it’s no. It’s on the box you are getting this for a [00:12:00] father experience That is

Simone Collins: Well then I don’t understand why this ... I’m so sorry.That is a

Malcolm Collins: misunderstanding. Why is there so much- There is nobody who bought this not going- Why

Simone Collins: is there so much outrage about it then? Because no one would care if that’s what it is.

Malcolm Collins: There’s outrage about it because the left sees people and men wanting to be fathers in a wholesome framing and getting angry about it.

And then they want to find a way to frame this negatively because they do not like that people are moving towards a traditional life pathway or desire a traditional life pathway. Okay. Because it frames something wholesome that people want in their lives and a wholesome experience they want and the left is so completely brain its audience into believing that nobody actually wants that, that it begins to sort of shatter the reality and cause this offense emotion because it’s challenging their world [00:13:00] perspective.

Oh. And so they must attack it. But the wider point I was making here is I think you can contrast something like pragmata and using that to stimulate this instinct versus something like using a pet to stimulate this instance. Okay. Using a pet to stimulate this instinct is done instead of having a child, right?

That is a toxic way to relate to this in the same way that if corn is a part of your life and you’re, and it’s just like a once a week thing or something like that, right, that’s irrelevant, right? Like that’s not gonna screw up your life, that’s not gonna lead you to degeneracy, that’s not gonna ... If, and people can be like, “Well, it, you know, I personally can’t resist that leading me to degeneracy.” And it’s like fine. And there’s people who play pragmata and get obsessed with this particular fake AI android girl, right? Like clearly this is dangerous for them. I’m just saying that for a [00:14:00] lot of people it doesn’t.

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: But-

Simone Collins: In the same way where like if you’re, if you’re skipping out on events where you might meet a future wife because you wanna stay home

Malcolm Collins: and

Simone Collins: look at corn

Malcolm Collins: then- Yeah, guning, right? Like that’s clearly a problem in the same way or you’re doing it multiple times a day or something like that, right?

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: That, that’s a point where it is clearly interfering with you pursuing the things that you want to pursue, like that you need to pursue from like a moral context. And it’s important to understand that engaging with something like Pragmata in this context can make it even more likely that you are going to find a partner.

This is very similar to the studies that were done on men in college that consumed corn versus the men who didn’t and the men who did were much more likely to have girlfriends and much more likely to be able to secure girlfriends. The idea that well, I mean, there’s, there’s this sort of [00:15:00] stereotype, which is just wrong, which we’ll get to is the Hassan, because Hassan has this gamer stereotype, which is just entirely wrong, but that’s sort of part two of this.

Basically he says, gamers are guys who don’t have kids and will never have kids. And we’re gonna point out by the statistics that’s just wrong, gamer guys are much more likely to have children than non-gamer guys of which Hassan is and doesn’t have kids. So, you know, his line dies with him, but more on that soon.

Because I wanted to talk more about the wider concept of art and video games and what these things do, right? Humanity is a collection, and we have a collection of things we find beautiful, things we find arousing, and things we find pleasing.

And this collection of things is downstream generally of evolutionary pressures. And people can say, “Oh, well, beauty isn’t [00:16:00] downstream of evolutionary pressures.” And I’m like, “Well, okay, first of all, yeah, usually it is if you’re talking about, like, a, a, a woman who you think is beautiful or a man you think is beautiful, that is evolutionary sexual pressures.”

Absolutely. That’s the Mona Lisa. That is most famous portraits. That is your ability to judge a human being as beautiful or not beautiful is downstream of the same evolutionary pressures that led to your most basal arousal pathways. But outside of that, well, people are like, “Well, what about pictures that aren’t of things like humans?”

And I’m like, “Okay, well, what sort of pictures do people like to draw?” They like to draw pictures of streams, they like to draw pictures of views of, of, of landscape. They like to draw pictures of oceans. They like to draw pictures of like, like scenes of nature where you can see far in the distance.

And I’m like, “Okay, so what have you just described a bunch of? “ You, you, you’ve just said the things that people like [00:17:00] to look at over other things that people may want to look at are locations where they have a long view into the distance, e.g. A defendable location, locations with fresh water, e.g.

Locations where it’s good to live, and locations with food supplies, e.g. Animals or fish. You have described what in our evolutionary context was what it felt like to be in an area that was defendable and that had resources you needed to survive versus locations that didn’t. Everything that we perceive in reality tied to pleasure is downstream of these evolutionary pressures.

And you can try to gate little tunnels of this based on our current understanding and society of, well, this is this kind of content [00:18:00] because it is, within X type of, you know, degeneracy but as I was trying to point out earlier in this, that actually causes a lot of problems in terms of like categorizing, well, what is actually corn?

Speaker 7: The point we’re trying to get into here is specifically why is in some context masturbation a bad thing to do. It’s a bad thing to do because you are hijacking a reproductive inpulse for pointless personal gratification rather than directing that impulse to finding or satisfying your spouse. When that impulse guides some behavior other than finding and satisfying your spouse, it is deleterious to you.

And this is important because if you get too deontological about this, you can just categorize all of X thing is bad, all of Y thing is good, and then completely ignore the entire point about prohibitions about masturbation because it is, you’re taking the reproductive impulse, hijacking it, , for something other than its purpose.

[00:19:00] So what about playing with kids? Playing with your kids feels good because it is helping you, , raise the next generation, keep humanity going. And instead of relying on these desires to have a kid and raise the kid and play with a kid, you short circuit them and you use , a fictional character to do that.

functionally, you’re, you’re doing an equivalent thing. And this isn’t to say that there couldn’t be some positive externalities, , like the game gets people to realize that they have these impulses in the first place, , which is, you know, why people are excited about it because a lot of guys didn’t realize that this felt so good, but, , it is the same thing and just as some guys can get one shotted by masturbation, some guys are going to be one-shotted by fictional children, , that they can parent and dote on.

And this is gonna become an increasing problem as we enter the age of AI where people can have children that feel very, very real. And so the [00:20:00] warning that I lay out here with a game like Pragmata may seem so silly and trivial, “Oh, guys didn’t realize they had this motivation, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.”

And it’s good because it makes them realize that, and, and may seem silly and trivial because this is your first time encountering something that’s meant to masturbate this instinct, but you wait until people have AI children, then you’ll see why this warning is so prescient.

Speaker 3: And if you’re like, well, it’s not about the effect on the individual, it’s about the effect on society. Obviously, the statistics that I cite the most, which is what causes me to have such strong beliefs about this is, , when the Czech Republic , legalized corn, , rates of child SA dropped by around 50%.

We have seen similar results of, , between 25 and 50% drop in child SA whenever it gets legalized in a region. , And we also saw sexual assault rates drop the United States, , at around the same rate as internet penetration was hitting a region.

And also we know of prisoners, , those who engage in SA [00:21:00] typically start engaging with corn at a later age in their life. ,

And this is what gets me on the bands of stuff like this. Like we have the evidence on this. We know the consequence of these sorts of bans. And it’s because of your own moral inability to control yourself, you are sacrificing the lives of children. , And if you say, “Well, okay, I actually don’t struggle with this.

Well, if you don’t struggle with this, then why the heck are you sacrificing the lives of children when you can throw this meat to the beast of society and prevent them from using human children as their ownie holes, right? Like why, why are you doing that? That’s a monstrous thing to do. And I think a lot of the time it’s because, , people want to look more generically conservative than the person next to them.

Speaker 9: But when the progressive wants to be a good person and says, “Oh, I am letting in these immigrants,” and you point out, , these immigrants often great people, here are the statistics. , And, and they are monstrous and they are responsible for those grapes when they do this. Just as much as a [00:22:00] conservative who says, “I want to ban erotic material.”

, And you point out, “Well, in countries where this has been done, the level of child grapes rose by X amount, , they are responsible for that. It’s important that we not fall for the same trap the progressive does.”

Speaker 3: And o- obviously this doesn’t win us points to point out, , in the conservative sphere, but I will not sacrifice the lives of children for the perception that I am a morally pure person if I know what the consequential outcome of that sacrifice is. I

So at a, at a societal level as well, it’s positive. The question is, is it positive for individuals? , And the answer here is often not, , but it depends on how the individual is relating to it in the same way that a game like this can be very negative for an individual, , but generally it’s going to be positive.

It just depends on the context.

Malcolm Collins: And then this gets to the bigger problem here where people will then [00:23:00] say, “Well, Malcolm, I am you know, X type of Christian and Christians have always been really anti anything that has to do with sexuality.” And I would just say, “No, the person who told you that was your leftist school, your leftist upbringing and leftist caricatures of Christians.”

If you look at Christians in a historic context depending on the Christian cultural group that you are studying, they were a very sexual population. Great examples of this would be the Puritans who up until the mid 19th century, their works heavily censored because they were so sexual. Y- y- you see this in parts of the Bible, particularly the Old Testament where you will have quite graphic sexual allegories and jokes.

You, you may not get them as a reader today because you won’t know that a foot is supposed to be a member was in that context in Jewish society, but the, the, they, they were to the readers of that [00:24:00] period. They were porn jokes.

Speaker 14: Just to go over some of these, we have Ru three, we have Samuel 24-3, we have Isaiah 720, we have Judges 324.

Malcolm Collins: That, that is what parts of the Bible are. And you could say, “Well, then why?

Like, why any of the ... Doesn’t, doesn’t the Bible say that you shouldn’t, like, lust after other women?” And it’s like, you absolutely shouldn’t be lusting after other women. Don’t do that, right?

But I think that you can divide lusting after other women with one, what a lot of modern corn actually is and two the way that we, as a larger, like, new right cultural phenomenon relate to these concepts.

So if you’re like, how were the Puritans like pro- monogamy, but also vulgar, right? Like what, I don’t, I don’t get this. It doesn’t make sense to me. And here I’d be like, “Have you seen the new leaflet song?” Right? The, the, not the new one, her first one. She had another one about college, which is really good, you should watch it, but the, the [00:25:00] first one is about have babies.

And in the song about having babies she says

Speaker 19: お

Malcolm Collins: And the, the, this is the way that Puritans talked about this stuff, right? Like, the idea being everything that she has said there is what our society today would tell you is vulgar, but the reality of what she has said is what you do to make babies, okay?

It’s not actually bad. [00:26:00] It’s not anti-biblical to say, “You should have a wife and have sex with her and come inside of her and make babies.”

Speaker 24: The woke mind virus is trying to psyop us into becoming incredibly rigid in the way we relate to sexuality and aroutal. And rigid things become brittle. We need to have a degree of flexibility to stay maximally, structurally strong and protect our children. The reason they’re trying to syup us into this rigidity is because when they do, it makes it very easy to lure our children out of the tradition.

And we can see as we have adopted more flexibility as a movement, I mean, if you had told me 10 years ago, some of the leading conservative influencers would be like Anthro Fox girls, furries, you know, whether it be Kirsha, Smugalana, Slime Girl, Leaflet, I’d be like that, how, how? Isn’t the [00:27:00] right so strict and rigid around this stuff?

But as we have loosened that and said, no, it’s okay to be flexible in this stuff so long as it’s not in a way that’s causing active harm to our members, we can outmaneuver the left where they have begun to worship ugliness

And as long as they’re going to insist on making all of their females ugly, we have a huge asymmetric advantage in the culture war, whereas we allow for attractiveness within our influencers, even where we’re creating super normal iterations of that EG V tubers. I

Malcolm Collins: there, there was a group who hated talking about this stuff, Sierra Quaker episode, but what happened to them? They mostly died out. Some iterances of their group even began to think that sex was in marriage was sinful like the shakers, and they died out extra hard.

So, the point that I’m making is I think that we are, we are bringing this back in a way that’s protective of our communities. And people can say, “Oh, well, what about, like, the Colorado [00:28:00] strategy or whatever.” I can’t remember the Colorado something. And it’s like, if you ever allow degeneracy, it always helps our opponents and not us.

And here they’re referring to Colorado loosening the ban on marijuana. And here I say to them, “Are you actually kidding me? “ And note here, when I’m talking about corn, I’m not talking about anything that’s involving real humans that is, I think, pretty much always has negative externalities for society.

You, the, there’s, there’s AI stuff, there’s drawn stuff, there’s, you know, I, I’m not talking about real humans, because then that involves those real humans and ends up ruining their lives. But the Colorado strategy is really stupid because the reason why Colorado ended up flipping blue after they legalized pot was because they legalized effing pot.

You ... Idiots like obviously if you were the first state to legalize pot, that’s gonna bring a bunch of lefties from all over the country to your state, and they’re gonna vote in a lefty way that has nothing to do with the wider conversation. Now, why is it so important for the [00:29:00] left to try to trick you into thinking that historic Christian groups were incredibly humorously enough, they made up the term puritanical about sex, which is the antithesis of the way the Puritans viewed sex.

And the ... By the way, most of the, the Christian groups other than the Quakers didn’t really care. Like the backwards people would talk about sex very frequently as well. They, they had no trouble talking about it. It w- it didn’t have big social taboos around it in the way it does in modern society.

Why did they have to convince us of that? It’s because it’s the number one way that they get our kids. It’s important to remember that if you’re a Protestant for every one person that converts to a Protestant, two people leave the church. If you’re a Catholic for every one person that converts into the church, eight people leave the church, right?

Like, the church is even now, ... Now it looks like it may have tapered off in some of the latest polling, but it’s pretty much bleeding members, or at least it has been for a very long time. And we need to think about how and why. And the easiest strategy to get your kids has been oh, you little Tommy, you [00:30:00] feel arousal th- th- that must mean that you are sinful, but look at us like we feel arousal and it’s accepted in our community or you feel this type of arousal that your parents say makes you evil, right?

And so you might as well just join us. And this strategy was like super successful. Like it one shot at so many Christian kids because it’s, it’s, it’s when you’re going through a time and you’re first feeling these emotions and you don’t have anyone else you can go to, or you don’t feel like you have anyone else you can go to because this stuff has been so stigmatized by the way that your family talks about it it, it, it’s a very easy strat for the leftist to employ.

And it’s, it’s, it’s created a a, a, a sort of just a, a, a shooting cage for young kids. And I’m really glad that through YouTubers like Leaflet, we are beginning to see a coming back of, bro, like, make kids, it’s hot, right? Like, remember what this is for. [00:31:00] Remember what all of this is for. Don’t let them be they the, the leftist or the leftist created mirror version, mirror world version of Christianity turn your kids into easy targets.

And, and everything, and the way you style culture and everything like that, and this is, I think, the problem with a lot of people. And they look at me, they’re like, “Are you giving advice? For us, it’s gonna make our lives heart, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.” Like, no, like everything that I think through is like, how am I gonna keep my kids from deconverting?

How am I gonna make my kids resilient to this? And when it’s advice, it’s advice at the cultural level. How do we harden our cultures to the tactics people use against us? And so it’s important to understand that pragmata masturbates the parental instinct within us, and there are mechanisms that that instinct can be masturbated like owning dogs and cats that are as degenerate as the absolute worst pornography [00:32:00] because they have degenerate effects on society and your life, which is you end up becoming a cat lady.

A cat lady, we used to understand that becoming a cat lady was the very peak of human degeneracy. It was that generation’s version of being the worst kind of gooner was in today’s society because you let that spin out of control. And yet today, JD Vance points this out, you know, the, the using catwoman derogatorily and he gets hounded by the media because they are attempting to normalize this and they normalize it by breaking apart the categories so you can’t understand what’s what anymore.

You can’t understand what’s good and what’s bad. You can’t say real human beings bad, right? Like that’s an easy category there. Does it involve real human beings? Bad, right? Does it involve something that somebody is, is, is making into like a daily thing for themselves, bad, right? But just normal human arousal pathways, whatever.

And [00:33:00] I, I note here people can be like, “Well, the Bible expects you to never masturbate.” And I’m like, “I’m pretty sure the Bible would have explicitly said that if the Bible expects you to never masturbate.” And you can see our episode on what does the Bible say about masturbation, but the Bible if you’re looking into the Old Testament at least, there is one section where it explicitly

Talks about blocked or abnormal emissions.

Malcolm Collins: And, and many people take this to mean, well, if you have a type of disease which is blocking emissions you are unclean, but what it implies is that it expected most men to be having emissions regularly. Not most married men because it applies to all Jewish men for this period but most men generally.

Speaker 15: And even if you take the stance that no, it’s not talking about that, , it’s talking about only blocked omissions in the context of a marriage where that would be relevant, you still have to admit that that’s a pretty out there edge case to be mentioning in the Bible. Abnormal admissions and blocked emissions and then a number of paragraphs about what to do about [00:34:00] that.

Why does it never once when it’s a natural thing for humans and apes to do, by the way, because apes do this in nature to masturbate, why would it never mention this if it was so existentially dangerous? , And it existentially didn’t want you to do this. , And people can say, “Oh, well, there’s this section where the guy pulls out before he finishes in a woman in a Levite marriage, and that’s the same.”

It’s like, no, that’s not.

Speaker 16: That was a legitimately horrifying thing a guy was doing. So for context in the Bible, if, , your husband dies, you marry his brother, that’s a Levite marriage, this is meant so that you can carry on, , his line and, you know, have children. , And so the guy was having sex with his brother’s widow and pulling out every time before he could do the function of sex, which is coming inside of her so that she could have a child, , literally using her as a human oni hole instead of, , actually doing the purpose of sex, which is getting her pregnant.

You know, [00:35:00] he could have chosen to not have sex with her, but no, he kept having sex with her and pulling out before he gave her the one thing that she needed. Horrifying, horrifying scenario.

If you were going to stretch this beyond its original meaning, the more accurate stretch would be as a condemnation of any non-procreative sex.

Malcolm Collins: So again, I, I don’t even think, I think that this is like a modern, mirror, fake version in the same way that like there’s some rightist today who inhabit this like super racist, antisemitic trope because they learn from their like leftist parents that that’s what a rightist is without like looking to history to try to understand this stuff.

Simone Collins: Yeah, that’s underrated the extent to which the leftist’s perception of the right is purely based off of leftist trauma. I mean, and vice versa, to be fair, but if only there were more exchange.

Malcolm Collins: Straumann?

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm. But I, I did not understand the right because I just believed this caricature that was presented to me as a kid.

Malcolm Collins: Mm-hmm.

Simone Collins: And that’s [00:36:00] underrated, I think, to the, the extent to which that happens on both the left and the right when people grow up- Right.

Malcolm Collins: And I completely sympathize with so many kids who grew up in the urban monoculture, their parents had abandoned their culture and never really taught it to them. They discover that many things that are said was in the right are true, and then they try to adopt to win some sort of social hierarchy battle that they now think they’re playing among other rightists, the most stereotypical rightist perceptions within like what their community or what the leftist drama told them the rightest were like.

And like I can understand this very confusing to a lot of people. And, and somebody can look at me and they can be like, “Malcolm, if you normalize all this stuff, like life won’t work out for you. You should live the way Nick Fuentes lives or whatever.” And I’m like, okay, but like I have five kids and a loving relationship and most of the people I see who push this extremely strict deontological lifestyle are [00:37:00] not happily married and don’t have lots of kids and aren’t actually winning at things.

Knowing where to loosen the rules on yourself is a really important part of actually succeeding in life. And this is a conversation I think people did not expect this particular talk to go, but now we’re gonna go to the second part of this, which is what Hassan had to say about this. And I’m gonna play the clip right here.

Speaker 17: Well, family, even streamers who say at the start, start they didn’t want kids end up breaking down happy and tears. So what’s really interesting about this is all of these unfuckable losers in the gaming sphere always talk about like starting families and stuff. And I don’t understand like why this has become a thing that they care about.

Like if you’re a gamer, you should care about things that you actually experience. You should care about things that you actually enjoy, right? If you’re a f*****g lonely gamer who has never been around a woman and will never have sex with a woman, why do you care? Like why do you care about having children or like [00:38:00] riding for having children?

Like it’s just not something that you’re gonna experience ever for your life, for the rest of your life, right? This is something that I never understand.

Malcolm Collins: And this clip is important because again, it represents a trope, a trope that the left wants to be true about gamers. And it wasn’t just Hassan saying this, it was lots of people online saying this. But it is factually incorrect. So we decided to look into this. We’re like, okay, Hassan said gamer, because I’m a gamer, right?

And I would say, for example my sin of playing video games is dramatically worse than any sin I have tied to corn. And the reason being because sin, according to the Bible, is anything you don’t do for God. And I don’t play video games for God. You can’t play video games for God. Video games are for personal entertainment- Yeah.

to masturbate instincts that you evolved. And so, if I’m doing that many times more within my life that I’m looking at something like [00:39:00] corn, then it’s a, it’s a bigger challenge for me. It’s a bigger sin that I need to get through to live, I think, a, a, a, a perfect life. But I give myself loose rules within some areas because I know I’m gonna be tempted and I know the end goal for all of this is a happy and healthy family and a happy and healthy civilization and that if I focus too hard on this rule and this rule, then I’m not gonna get to this rule and do it right, which is the important one, which is the consequentialist one, which is to have a family, have kids treat your wife well, treat your kids well, raise the next generation, protect human civilization.

And this is ... No, this is really important, right? Like, so many of the people who are preaching this alternate perception, but anyway, let’s get to this study. Simone, you put it together, go over it. Yeah. Video game developers.

Simone Collins: Well, yeah, because we were talking in a long card drive about this. I used with Perplexity’s help, I used Perplexity to find notable video game developers and then see what their [00:40:00] key games were and if they were kids.

And I didn’t ... I actually, I did a separate grock search on whether they were, like, woke game developers or not. It didn’t actually seem to make a difference in some of the data, depending on how you look at it. But I will remember to share this spreadsheet in the show notes too. If anyone wants to look at it we created basically a list of 30 notable male video game developers, their key games and their father status, whether they’re a father or childless or unknown.

And if we know how many kids, how many kids they have plus source URLs. And the fathers out of the 30, there were 20 of them, so 66.7%. So more likely than not, a video game developer is going to be a dad. There were only two who were explicitly childless, 6.7%. And then the rest were just unknown, eight out of 30, which is 26.7%.

So

Malcolm Collins: only two out of 30 didn’t have kids. That’s right. Of video game developers.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: So only two are the genetic dead [00:41:00] ends that Hassan represents.

Speaker 21: And I would note here that this isn’t just us that found this. , There was a study that showed that 55% of gamers are married and 48% have children, and single gamers is twice as likely to go on dates, , , than, , non-gamers. , So gamers actually end up having kids at a much higher rate than non-gamers.

Speaker 23: And this sort of comes to the wider point here. Even though gaming is sinful because it’s purely done for personal entertainment, it has no positive externality on the world at large, it can still have a positive effect in your life if engaged was within a healthy context.

Malcolm Collins: And I find this projection very interesting from Hazan because he’s like, you guys aren’t having sex, which is what, what do you mean gamers aren’t ha- wh- wh- what?

Like, are you a middle school bully or something? Like, do you, did you not even think to, like, okay, what are, what are, like, famous right wing [00:42:00] video game creators? Okay, we got five nights of Freddy’s guy. I think he’s got, what, seven kids? He’s got some insa- I think he’s seven. It might be six or something.

Simone Collins: I think he’s a lot.

And, and he’s not even listed on this list.

Malcolm Collins: So the question is, is why do you see so many game developers having kids when people like Hassan don’t have kids? And I think here, we’re going back to the soft Yankee phenomenon- Oh. ... which actually ties strongly into this whole entire conversation.

We point out in Japan, the group that seems to be higher fertility than the other groups is the soft Yankees. So this is a style that in the past would have been seen they, they dressed like very American, like rode around on like Harley Davidson and did their hair slick back. Game

Simone Collins: troublemakers. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: A Yankee character, if you watch a lot of anime, right? And then as they got older, they sort of toned it down a bit, but they still had families and everything and they still wanted to, you know, because they were not taking life as [00:43:00] hard as your typical Japanese citizen does.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: Whereas the typical

Simone Collins: gap- They were, for example, they were more likely to live in their hometowns closer to their families, which is a big contrast to someone who, say, moved from a more rural area to Tokyo where it’s a lot harder to have a large family.

Malcolm Collins: Well, I, I don’t think that that’s the most important part. The most important part is that your typical Japanese salary man is living a life of extremely strict deontological rules, typically. And the- Well,

Simone Collins: and it’s a miserable life. I mean, the, the, the rates of death are just

Malcolm Collins: heart attack on the job. I think that’s not the point.

That’s not the point.

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: The point is, is that they are living a life filled with very strict rules, whereas Yankee culture was in Japan was built around saying- Rule

Simone Collins: breaking. Yeah. “

Malcolm Collins: F you to the rules, I’m gonna do things my way. I’m gonna do things the way that work best for some form of consequentialist outcome for me.

There was one of our fans that did an analysis of various Mormon districts based on [00:44:00] how religious they were. And what he ended up filing was that the highest fertility districts were not the highest religiosity districts. It was actually the middling religiosity districts that were the highest fertility, and being extremely high religiosity as a Mormon hit your fertility rates.

Mm-hmm. And so the question is, is w- why do we see this phenomenon around strict deontological value sets, strict rule-based value sets and a failure to achieve the end that all of those rules were for which is to say if, if you ask me at least, like, what is the point of all of the rules in a book like the Bible or in traditional cultures or in

Because there’s a lot of rules that people just took away, right? They’re like, “Oh, we don’t need that rule. I don’t understand why it’s there.” Like a rule was put in place, it solved a problem, then, you know, the summer of love comes around and they’re like, “Well, I just don’t understand why we can’t just sleep with everyone.”

And then as somebody pointed out the decline in [00:45:00] promiscuity that happened after the ‘70s wasn’t because people rediscovered morality, but it was because they immediately figured out why all those rules were there and it was called the AIDS crisis. The point being is that a lot of these historic rules had a point to them.

Mm-hmm. But it’s also important to remember that our perception today of what rules were in the past can sometimes be shaped by the urban monoculture, which lies to us around what rules were normalized in the past. The lies to us around what cultural practices were normal in the past to try to create a false framing of the past to put us in weaker positions.

If you see our episode about the degeneracy of the past or our, our ancestors we talk about how in many ways society has become dramatically more sexually conservative with some of the biggest being showers group showers no longer being a thing.

Simone Collins: Group showers, even more extreme things like key parties.

Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Key parties- Yeah. ... things where you go to a party and you’d [00:46:00] like swap keys and you’d go home with whoever’s key you had. Yeah. ... there was for male-

Simone Collins: Well, I think even just the fact that there was dating culture. Oh, the whole donkey thing you were gonna say.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Well, we don’t, I mean, we do know that in some parts of Latin America, donkeys were definitely a thing.

We don’t know of the Tiawana donkey journey.

Simone Collins: And the literal circle jerks. Wasn’t that another thing you talked

Malcolm Collins: about? Yes, circle jerks were very common for men I think through like the 1920s, through like the 1950s or ‘60s. When I say men, I’m, I talk about young men, like high school men would often, it was considered like something they did.

A- a- and you can read about this in like a lot of the literature of the period, if you read older literature that it was a thing that was done and was considered normal and not gay. I’m not saying bring back this stuff. I’m just saying that if you thought that we moved from a society that was not degenerate to a society that was degenerate you are believing a leftist lie about history.

Mm-hmm. A- and note here, people can be like, “Well, rule 34, that must be new.” And no-

Simone Collins: Oh, that’s what I was thinking. Rule 34.

Malcolm Collins: It’s not, we, I mean, if you go back to the 1920s, [00:47:00] you have Tijuana Bibles-

Simone Collins: Yeah. ...

Malcolm Collins: being sold d- widely- Well,

Simone Collins: please, if you go back to the 1700s, you have people making stuff of Mar- Marie Antoinette and her ladies and waiting.

Don’t even, yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. But the, but the Tijuana Bibles were basically your first

cartoon, a year later, you have your first widely distributed R34. For people who aren’t familiar with Tijuana Bibles, you’d like go to your local drugstore and you’d buy sort of under the table, they had books that were rule 34 art of the cartoons of the 1920s, 1930s, 1940s and these ended up transitioning in designs and then they died out with the internet because there was alternate things that existed.

And, and you see this, you know, you go all the way back. People are like, “Well, okay, this, this didn’t exist in, in, in history.” And it’s like, well, I mean, of course you have

Simone Collins: James Joyce, wasn’t it James Joyce?

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, James Joyce, James Joyce and his, like, fart fetish stuff that he would write.

So like he’s high society, right? Or you go back to ancient Greece and, oh my [00:48:00] God, like the moment you invent a theological pantheon, all of a sudden everyone’s having sex with each other in the weirdest possible ways and animals and whatever, right? And then fortunately a superior culture came around and, and cleaned up a lot of that and was like, no, like let’s not include the animals in this stuff.

But the point I’m making here is that these people who created these very strict rules, gamers don’t have these as much. Gamers take life a lot less rigidly because they’re like, look, I’m gonna chill out at the end of the day. I’m gonna have like an hour of me time, right? That isn’t, that isn’t for trying to move human civilization forwards, that isn’t for trying to be a good person, that isn’t for my family, that isn’t for and that this ability to be relaxed about part of your life allows you to, because think about when, when you, if you’re here saying [00:49:00] pragmata is not core, right? Functionally, how is it different? If I’m in my room and I’m playing pragmata, which I’m playing the game, it’s okay I am fathering a fake child while I have real children downstairs. Mm-hmm. How is that not as ghoulish as masturbating to a fake woman when I have a real wife in the other room?

I, I- Hmm.

Simone Collins: That’s a really good point. Yeah. Hmm.

Malcolm Collins: That, that is, that is obviously as ghoolish, right? And I, and then people can be like, “Well, okay, well, I only play games where I go around murdering fake people. “ And I’m like, “How is that any better?” Okay? You’re, instead of playing with your kids, murdering fake people in a box, all right?

I think we need to admit to ourselves when something is sinful, all right? Like, this is, I think, the greatest sin is to pretend [00:50:00] that something is that is, that is clearly very sinful, isn’t sinful, or is some different category of sin than the types of sin that other people are making.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: The final thing to talk about was pragmata, unless you had any comments on what I’m talking about here, Simone.

Simone Collins: No, I just really do appreciate, however, the fact that you’re bringing up this misnomer that somehow gamers are in cells when they’re, they’re actually just normal people-

Malcolm Collins: But these are chill about things. Yeah. You know, the people who are like, “I’ll never play video.” Like, clearly there’s some video game that would likely be fun for most people, and so if you’re out there fastidiously not playing video games, it’s because you’re living by some strict deontological rule set.

Hassan is living by one of those rule sets, and that’s why he has a girlfriend who says she’ll never breed with him- Yeah. ... because she says she doesn’t want kids. And so his life ends with him. His line ends with him. Yeah. He is a genetic dead end, and if you are having sex with someone without reproducing being the point of it, you know, as Lethalt [00:51:00] says the, the way to have kids birth control is for pussies.

If you are having sex with somebody without that being the end goal, you’re just treating your partner as an oni hole, right? As a sex toy. The, that’s, that’s the, the end of it, right? And I’m, I’m sorry if that hurts some people’s feelings to hear, but that’s the reality of it. You have reduced your partner to a level of degeneracy worse than anything you will find online, right?

Because the stuff you find online is fictional. You have reduced a real human being to a sex toy, which is disgusting. That is all they are was in your life if you are not having reproductive sex.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: And I know that, like, I’m sorry that that got a little spicy there, but it’s, it’s the reality.

And, and it’s sad to think of Hassan furiously masturbating himself inside of this woman who he presumably has some [00:52:00] affection for instead of doing what’s meaningful with his life because he believes he has followed all the deontological rules, or at least enough of them, so he doesn’t need to actually sacrifice for the future and have kids which is the problem that many deontologists also on the right do.

They go, “Well, I’m following enough of the important rules. I don’t actually need to do the really hard stuff, which is go out there and talk to women.” Right?m. You know, that’s the really hard part, right? They’re like, “Oh, well, it, the Bible doesn’t, you know, say it’s sinful to close myself in my house and not talk to women, so I’m not gonna...”

But all of those other rules in the Bible assume that you’re doing that anyway, right? Like all of those other rules was, was to achieve this outcome for you, which was a, a, a, a, a married household with lots of kids that were raised in a way that made them effectatious in the future. The rules weren’t to, like, f**k with you, okay?

Or, or make your life arbitrarily hard. It was to guide you in the right direction. And when you overly follow [00:53:00] like this, this and this, you can forget, oh, but the really hard thing I need to motivate myself to do today is talk to a girl. Now the final point, were there people online ... And I had prepared a bunch of, like, quotes that people had had about the game and getting mad about it, getting mad about it pronatalist message, people saying, “Oh, people are telling on themselves by finding her hot or whatever that leftists are evil and evil can’t see good.”

I mean, is this really true or is this just us trying to make ourselves feel good as people on the right? Like, it feels good to say leftists can’t see that this is actually a game about being a dad. And I think that there is some truth to this. There are some leftists who are so cooked that they reflexively can’t help but see a child and see a sexual object because that is the only way they relate to anything, any media, any

Simone Collins: book.

Well, then there’s a reminder that most people now are, [00:54:00] well, probably most, I need to check, but most are growing up without exposure to younger siblings, certainly not prolonged exposure. So they kind of don’t know how to contextualize young girls differently if they’re not, aside from being a kid ever around young girls, you know, as an older sibling or something.

Yeah. If that makes sense.

Malcolm Collins: But I think that most of the leftist anger around the game is downstream of three alternate reactions, and they’re just trying to hide the reactions in a way that they can use to attack their political opponents. And I think it’s important that we don’t accidentally do the same.

Because if we do, if we don’t actually attempt to model our political opponents, then we cannot predict them. And if we cannot predict them, we cannot fight them as well. The reason I’m able to do something like bait a Telemundo reporter into a trap is because I understand her perspective and I can predict her.

She doesn’t understand my perspective and [00:55:00] therefore cannot predict me and so falls in that trap. So, where, where, where are they going with this? How do they see it? So the first thing is they don’t like their political opponents being happy.

Simone Collins: Hmm.

Malcolm Collins: They see men and gamers and men who enjoy sexual things as their opponents, and this is why they remove sexual things from video games, because they want to make you a straight man sad.

That’s, that’s really it. They want you to have less pleasure. They don’t do it. And this, this is where they align, and this is why so much of the on, like the, the like new right or the online right got and cut its teeth fighting for the de- censorship of sexy female characters and games.

Simone Collins: Hmm.

Malcolm Collins: And we are intentionally hobbling ourselves if we don’t do that, right?

Because we say, “Oh I the left, but for reasons I won’t get down to here, I’m actually gonna talk about this was leaflet. The left started to hate beauty and they thought that they both hate [00:56:00] beauty and they hate especially beautiful women because beautiful women make straight white men happy, especially beautiful white women.

So let’s remove all of those from video games. And now we can put those back in our games and, and please gamers. And there’s gonna be a part of the faction that says, don’t put beautiful women in games because that’s sinful.” And it’s like, f**k off, right? Like, absolutely, you are m- removing one of our weapons for no reason when it’s an easy fight for us to win.

Yes, make games beautiful again. Right. So, one is for the same reason they wanna make women in games ugly. They just don’t want you to be happy. They see people being happy with a young girl and, and taking on a father role for her and they go “Well, I don’t like, I don’t like that these people are happy.

Let’s see if we can make some big stink and make studios not make games like this anymore.” Okay. Okay, that’s one. All right. The next reason the next reason is that they see men masturbating this emotional pathway [00:57:00] of being a father and they are afraid that men will realize that they want to be fathers in the same way that some idiots are afraid that, like, if men see corn, they’re gonna realize they want to have sex.

Yeah. And so we will not let them see corn. And it’s like, well, most men know they wanna have sex, okay? I’m, I’m, I’m sorry that’s like it’s pretty hard coded in our biology and it’s pretty hard coded in our biology because those of us who didn’t do it didn’t have surviving offspring. And most men who haven’t been brainwashed by our culture know that they want kids.

Now, and you even see this in statistic, men want kids significantly more than women today. But it is true that a lot of men were brainwashed in our culture today, so much so that they literally thought, “I don’t actually want kids.” And so they see this context and it does help break that brainwashing for some men.

Like, oh, it is pleasurable to raise children. And I have said before on the show people have taken this as some sort of like [00:58:00] weird self own or something like this where I said it is like if I’m contrasting the pleasure I get from like blocking out, you know, 30 minutes to an hour to have sex versus 30 minutes to an hour playing with the kids, it’s like not even close.

Playing with the kids feels much better than sex does.

Simone Collins: I’m actually curious if, if there are any parents of kids who would disagree, let us know in the comments. Like I, I haven’t encountered anyone who feels differently, but I’m curious, they must be out there apparently.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Yeah. People think like I’m owning myself by saying that or something like that.

And it’s like, no. Like clearly as an adult you, you get to a point where you are having sex for kids. You’re like, “Well, I want more of these things. Like I should schedule some time to make more of them.” And a lot of people contextualize this very badly. They’re like, “Oh, well, this means, you know, the person’s wife isn’t [00:59:00] gratifying him enough or isn’t going far enough out.

It’s like, no, like when you get to like five in kids, and note here, I’m not talking about one or two kids. Like when I had one or two kids, I still, you know, it’s about even, maybe sex is a bit better, right? But when you’ve got five kids playing with five kids, just feels way better. And- It’s

Simone Collins: a party.

It’s more

Malcolm Collins: than just playing. Yeah, it’s playing better in a way that doesn’t have any negatives to it, you know, afterwards. You don’t feel guilty, but you don’t feel ... It’s, it’s like perfect, clean pleasure, right? Like, there, there’s no negative externalities to taking some time to play with the kids. You, you can, for example, if you’re seeking pleasure you can do that for God.

Like it’s not a sin to play with your kids, right? And, and you can get a lot of pleasure from that, right? So, sorry, I’m, the reason I’m going into all of this is I think that a lot of men don’t realize how fun this is gonna be. And so they see this and they go, “Oh, like this is a lot of fun.” Also I’d say [01:00:00] for guys, don’t let your experience with babies mess up w- how much you think you’re going to like kids.

Most guys don’t really like babies. There are a few that do but like we’re not really designed to be a primary caregiver at that stage of a human’s life for obvious reasons, we can’t feed them. If, if, if you were unaware so there’s a reason they are typically with the mothers in an evolutionary context?

Simone Collins: Yeah. Key point being evolutionary context.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. So, yeah the third reason is that they genuinely do not like the idea that people may have kids as a result of this.

Simone Collins: Hmm.

Malcolm Collins: And that I think is probably the biggest, is they think, “Oh no, our messaging is falling apart.” Both in regards to kids and in regards to men wanting a stable marriage [01:01:00] and family and, and I mean, like genuinely wanting it, wanting it more than playing a game where you go walk around shooting people, right?

Like a guy, like, oh, imagine you’re a guy, you’ve, you’ve played a few games recently, you go, “Which game did I enjoy the most? The one where I was being a dad or the one where I was walking around shooting people. “ Well, I mean, as a man, I do like shooting people, of course, and I wish- There is that. ... that more in the real world, but I can’t, right?

There’s negative externalities to that, but there isn’t negative externalities from having a kid, and I might have enjoyed that game a bit more than the others, so I should give it a try. So I also think the, the propaganda’s pretty good here. So, final thoughts, Simone.

Simone Collins: Well, I didn’t realize people were actively choosing to play this game because they wanted to play a, a parenting simulator game, and I wish people discussed that more because I had no idea.

I thought people were feeling like they were being psyopt into being parent asp- aspirational parents when they just wanted- It’s literally the only

Malcolm Collins: thing anyone’s [01:02:00] been talking about since the demo first showcased for the game.

Simone Collins: That’s a really good sign though. If all these people want to play a parent simulator game, isn’t that cool?

Isn’t that awesome? Doesn’t that mean people actually really do like the idea of becoming parents? And that maybe in the future, people will start to just overcome the stated barriers to parenthood, like, “I’m not prepared.”

Malcolm Collins: And also, as a final point here, like to note for people who are like, “Oh, don’t you understand that, like, corn ends up exaggerating all of the parts of procreation that, you know, to unrealistic standards?”

Simone Collins: Well, people made that point with their criticisms of this as well. They’re like, “Well, you’re not dealing with the spitting and the screaming and the diapers and the, you know, all that

Malcolm Collins: stuff.” Well, yeah, and that’s, that’s the point I wanna make. I wanna make ... You, you cannot criticize corn for being unrealistic and over the top and supernormal stimuli.

This is a stimuli that is, like, bigger and better than anything that would exist in the real world and then say this [01:03:00] game stimulating another, masturbating another parental instinct pathway, a pathway about having children isn’t doing the exact same thing. It’s almost cartoonish in a way.

You know, as somebody who has a lot of experience around young kids the way that this character acts is a caricature of an over the top way a kid her age would act. It’s not the way children her age actually ... I’m, I’m not talking about, “Oh, you’re not dealing with the spitting, you’re not dealing with the pooping in the pants, you’re not dealing with the, this kid’s older than that.

If the, a kid of this age is pooping in their pants, there’s, like, serious developmental problems or spitting or having breakdowns. Our kid who’s closest to this age doesn’t do any of that anymore.” But even with all of that being the case she still acts in a way that is completely super normal and not the way children actually act.

It’s, it’s to a kid, w- whatever a girl [01:04:00] doing the, like, sexy girl thing, you know, like, “Ooh, I’m so hot. I’m a ... “ You know, like when I, when they’re trying to look like what they think a sexy girl looks like it, it’s doing that, but for what people think the cutest, most adorable kid ever would do. And, and here I will note, the, the face again does seem a little

It, it, it ... Okay, I’ll I was trying to age, ... I’ll see if I can find this, age up our daughter, because I like aging up our daughters to see, “Oh, what are they gonna look like when they’re 20? What are they gonna look like when they’re 30, you know, et cetera.” And one of them messed up, and it moved her face to the age of 20, but it didn’t move the rest of her body to the age of 20.

Simone Collins: Oh, grow.

Malcolm Collins: And that image is the closest image I’ve seen to the pragmatic character.

Simone Collins: Yeah, you know what? That makes sense.

Malcolm Collins: I’m, I’m sorry. I know this isn’t a popular opinion on the right, but they, they did kind of mess up her face. Yeah. But again, it’s because they’re going was the most cutesy, supernormal stimuli for people who may not have a super good [01:05:00] grasp of what kids of this age range look like.

Simone Collins: But by the way, using AI to age up your kids is underrated. I mean, studies have shown that when you contextualize yourself in the future or when you’re primed by the researchers looking at your behavior to think about your future self or think as your future self or look at pictures of your future self, you tend to make more responsible decisions a- about your long-term life.

You know, you don’t choose the easy indulgent thing now, you choose the thing better for the future. And one thing that we do when we make these aged up photos of our kids is show them, “Hey, this could be you in the future. This is you in the dinosaur lab making your dinosaur. This is you in front of your helicopter,” whatever, like whatever they’re into and it can

I think it has been motivating for them to do the right thing or to focus on making themselves better when otherwise they would not be interested because what’s the payoff for them? But it’s pretty cool when they can see who they could be.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Anyway love you to death [01:06:00] Simone. The wild take on this one I think for people who have been waiting for us to just dunk on leftists, which I don’t think is helpful to do.

I think we need to make sure that we understand where they’re really coming from and that we understand and properly categorize the stimuli that exists in our environment and not rely on stimu- like, like stereotypes as to what those stimulis are or what they represent.

Simone Collins: Fair enough.

Malcolm Collins: And by the way, note here, if somebody’s like, “There’s no such thing as corn that’s as wholesome as something like pragmata.”

Like I’ve literally posted one before. It’s like the hinti leak on the stream it’s called like

When I returned to my hometown, my childhood friend was broken.

Malcolm Collins: Oh,

Simone Collins: yeah. Like the actual hanti.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. By the way, not it doesn’t have, like, it, it does a weird thing where it just tells a really wholesome story and then all of the actual, like, inappropriate scenes are after the story is over, but take place throughout the story [01:07:00] so you can read the story without accidentally hitting any of the inappropriate scenes.

Simone Collins: That’s so

Malcolm Collins: funny. But the point is, is it’s a, it’s an actually fairly popular hinti about meeting a childhood friend who’s going through emotional trauma, helping them overcome it, getting married and having kids. And the point I’m making here here is not everything out there is degenerate, right?

Speaker 12: The negatives of this sort of material is the effect it has on your life, your perception of women or men, and your perception of reality. And it is so ubiquitous in the world we live in, it is up to you to engage with this sort of content in a healthy way. It is a self-control that is going to be required of you and of the next generation, or we are going to die out as a species.

And we need to be very careful to not get one shot at because we see the instinct to have sex and we, , say, “This is always dangerous, always and everywhere when that [01:08:00] is not the case.” And we see the instinct to play with our children and we say, “This is always healthy, always and everywhere, and it could never come in one shot me in some way.”

Speaker 18: Being honest and clear-headed about each of these instincts and how they can be, , manipulated or engaged with in ways that are healthy or unhealthy is critical if your line is going to survive. And building up this self-control to do that is critical if your line is going to survive.

Speaker 13: The distinction here and the criticality of this distinction is much easier to see in erotic material for women than it is for men. , Women clearly like monster Effer books are not good for a woman’s brain and how she perceives men and how she perceives society. But that isn’t to say all romance books that a woman could read that are basically stimulating the same pathways are not going to get her to end up fantasizing about a positive and healthy relationship with a man.

It is that she chooses the degenerate option that ends up [01:09:00] scrambling her brain. It is that she chooses to perceive things like that that ends up scrambling her brain. It is not the very essence of books about romance. I mean, what about the girl who grows up reading the books about the heroic night with positive qualities who saves the woman?

That is the same genre as the monster effort genre. Fundamentally, it’s hitting the same pathways. It’s just doing it in a positive contextualization.

Speaker 20: And for the guys who say, “Well, when degeneracy is an option, I just can’t help but choose it. “ It’s, first of all, no, you can’t. You have the self-control. You’re choosing not to have the self-control. But if you genuinely, at a biological level, lack the self-control to not choose degeneracy, then it’s pointless, right?

Like, your kids or grandkids are gonna be shot too. You’re a genetic dead end. And I don’t need to manipulate society

Or change society in a way that’s going to lead to children getting graped.

Speaker 20: to [01:10:00] protect weak genetic dead ends like you. I

Speaker 13: I

Malcolm Collins: Like, there is actually healthy material out there.

Simone Collins: Mm.

Malcolm Collins: It’s that you are choosing something degenerate.

Simone Collins: There you go. It’s all about choices.

Malcolm Collins: All right. Love you, Simone.

Simone Collins: I love you too.

Malcolm Collins: All right. We just made it back from DC and for anyone who’s still watching at this point in the video, I will be streaming with Leaflet tonight at 9:00 PM EST. Let’s see if I stay up all night again. So I’ll probably be streaming tomorrow morning too. Depending, that’s what happened last night.

Simone Collins: Saturday morning.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, it’s, it’s a 10 hour stream last time, so we’ll see what ends up happening this time. I made the, the horrible mistake of thinking, oh, I’m hopping on leaflet to talk with her for a few hours because, you know, that’s the longest a video could possibly go. So I start drinking at the beginning of our conversation, [01:11:00] not even realizing how late it had gotten or how long we’d been talking.

Simone Collins: Right. No, it was so, so cool though. I think a lot of people enjoyed it.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, yeah. I think this one will do well, so we’ll, we’ll, I mean, I hope it does well for her. Build up we’ll be doing this every other Friday, by the way, if you, if you miss this one. At least that’s a plan. You know, we’ll see. Maybe, you know, something happens, some drama happens.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Well-

Malcolm Collins: And it doesn’t end up working out. Anything you wanna say, you know?

Simone Collins: N- no. Oh my God. Hold on. Sorry. Octavia’s been ... No. That’s a mistake. Don’t go outside.

Sorry. I just wanna make sure Octavian ... [01:12:00] Oh my God, I’m gonna kill him.

Malcolm Collins: What was Octavian doing? Do I need to put more water on my hair?

Simone Collins: No, I think it’s fine. Okay. Maybe run your fingers through it.

He’s just farting me. He, yeah. He’s just trolling me now.

He just wants to use our intercom system for fart jokes.

Malcolm Collins: Okay. Well, I’ll get started. Okay, Simone? Okay.

Simone Collins: Oh my God, come on, just send.

Okay. Sorry. Go ahead.

Malcolm Collins: All right. And this is the type of thing where you don’t have to waste time doing this. You know, you’re choosing to spend time doing this.

Simone Collins: Well, [01:13:00] no, because he thought I said to go outside the fence and he will wander off and-

Malcolm Collins: We’ll

Simone Collins: never see anything. Yeah. I, it is not, it is not safe for us to say, “Yeah, it’s okay for you to play outside.”

And they’re like, “Outside the fence, you mean?” And that’s-

Malcolm Collins: Okay. ...

Simone Collins: that’s dangerous.

Octavian Collins: Okay, come on. And you can open these. You can open these. Oh yeah, this is private jet. Come on, activity, activity. Let’s go back. Let me go take pictures. I got a video of you. Wait.

Come on, go.

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