Ex-Mormon The Musical

0:00Welcome, everybody. Another episode of Mormonism Live, Mr. Radio Free Mormon, how are you this fine evening? I'm here, Bill, and that's what's important. How are you doing? Yeah, I think we're both just a touch under the weather. There were some people who got little ill on the cruise and we're paying for it now. So we end up, it is September 23rd. I think my series of penicillin should take care of it, though, Bill, after a couple weeks. I think you got maybe. You know what? Not me. So, all right. So September 23rd, 2026, we're going to sit down tonight with John Moyer. He is the creator of Joseph Smith Presents X Mormon, The Musical. We also have to involve Richelle, but she won't be joining us tonight. She had something come up last minute. But I will bring John on. We'll just jump right into the conversation. So John, how are you? I am well. Thank you for having me, guys. This is, you know, I've watched from one side of the screen. Now I get to be on the screen with you.

1:03So then you'll love to be appreciated. Yeah. You're breaking up a touch at just FYI. So I don't know, maybe one thing that can be possible is on your settings there. If you turn sort of the camera down from like a thousand 80 to seven something or even lower, that might help. OK. Oh, and yeah, it worse comes the worse. If you take yourself off when you're talking, video wise, then it'll come through much clearer. You get off for a second. I'll change my up on the 720. OK. No, this is just started happening. Of course, we were doing fine before the show started. Now this is so clear before we started. So John, I thought the best thing to do, because I learned this just as we were talking before the show, I knew that you had had other things you were involved in, but I didn't know to what extent. And you shared that you've actually had a lot of influence on us post-mormons years ago when we were in the church and wanted nothing more than to watch Mormon cinema.

2:03Tell us a little bit about some of the projects that you've worked on in the past and help us get sort of a flavor of why we might know you already. Well, back in the day, I actually, I wrote the movie The Singles Wort. You're the guy. I am the guy. You're the one who's working. That was me. Yeah, there they are. Singles Wort, RM, Mopsers and Mormons, the home teachers. I wrote and directed Mopsers and Mormons as well. And Singles Wort was born from my own personal pain about being divorced and going back to a Singles Wort. And that freak show that it can entail. And because look, when you're a divorced Mormon going back to the Singles Wort, it's like having been rescued and saved and then marooned once again on the island of misfit toys. And I went through this experience. And I wrote the script just as a cathartic piece for me,

3:04never ever thinking that it would ever see the light of day. And it just so happened to be that one of my buddies I went to film school with Kurt Hale, whose grandparents found at the Hale Center Theatre, was like, there's a market for Mormon movies. Let's make this. And then the rest kind of just spiraled from there. Well, I love it. I've seen all of those. And to one degree or another, they had influenced on me at a time when I was in the church and believing and wanting to chuckle a little bit at myself in the culture that I was in. And I think you did a great job of helping us do that. So I appreciate that and knowing that about you. I, oh, please. Well, it was a really, it was a fun time. And all of those movies, I think my sense of humor, I call out things that I think are kind of ridiculous in the real world. And a lot of that centered on my personal experiences

4:06of things that I looked around in the culture and said, this is kind of ridiculous. This is silly. And put a spotlight on that. And each, every one of especially mobsters and Mormons, having been raised not in Utah and then moving to Utah. And then seeing how people who are not members of the church can be treated and when they move in to Utah, that was the inspiration for that. Take a, I grew up in New Jersey. So it's like, let's take a mafia family. Everybody that I, the cliche, went to high school with and put them in the middle of Utah County. And that came actually from, I'd read a letter in the Salt Lake Tribune about a non-Mormon family who moved into a neighborhood. And the husband wrote a motorcycle, wife would mow the lawn on Sunday in a bikini. And she got a anonymous letter from one of her Mormon neighbors

5:08that was like, how dare you mow your lawn on Sunday? We don't want your kind here. And to the woman's credit, she took it to the bishop and the bishop stood up in sacrament meeting, read that letter to the ward and just tore the ward apart and said, how dare you treat people like this? This is not who we are. And that was actually the genesis of where mobsters and Mormons came from. But those are the kind of things that I saw that I felt were really kind of jacked up in the culture and wanted to make comedy commentary about them. Yeah, well, you did that. I think you did a great job with that. I wonder if maybe the best place to start before we jump into the musical is to give us a feel. Maybe also, again, I want to note that we had intended in the beginning here to have you and your wife or shell to have that conversation with both you. She wasn't able to make it. But I'm wondering if you could tell us your story about Mormonism, like when you were in, when you believed and how you ended up at a place

6:09where you started to consider making and X Mormon musical. My family joined when I was 11 years old. Missionaries knocked on our door and we, that wasn't July, I think of 1980. And we were baptized October 5th, 1980. And having grown up in the church actually was a really good experience for me. Not without seeing the quirky things that I, began to see as a youth. One of my first things that I, I guess you could call it, a calling, I was the, the state DJ for all of the youth dances. And we had a counselor in the state presidency who at the time, you know, the church had had guidelines or instructions that you like music could be only so loud, it couldn't go over so many decibels. And this guy would stand at the back of the culture hall with a sound meter and then come up to me and tell me that, you know, the sound level is 0.75 decibels

7:14over what the, what the first presidency has, you know, told us it should be. And I just looked at little things like that and it drove me nuts. And then of course seeing more of that, when I went on my mission, I went on my mission to Detroit, Michigan of all places. And that entire time, you know, I was, I was all in. I was, you know, a true believer in the church. I, you know, I never questioned it. You know, I felt I was doing what God wanted me to do, you know, follow, you know, my patriarchal blessing and going on especially when the movies came out because I'm like, we're spreading the gospel through cinema, just like Spencer W. Kimball said, he wanted to see Mormon stories told on the, on the big screen and led to BYU, I mean, graduated from BYU. And along the way got married in the, married in the temple and the divorced not long after I graduated from BYU, which is what's burned the singles ward

8:18because I kind of married the first person that came along and she was a recent convert to the church and that scene in singles ward where he comes home and she's smoking a beer and she's, you know, or smoking a cigarette and drinking a beer and was like, I don't believe in the church anymore, I'm done. That really happened to me and it was going through those experiences that I thought, you know, these are all things that I wanted to, you know, write about. And when we did the movies so much of my personal life and other people's personal lives and stories, we're all in there. But I felt like, you know, I was doing what God had called me to do. I was following, you know, or I was fulfilling prophecy relative to the, relative to the church. And then it was right after Moms,ters and Mormons, maybe about a year or two after that or my shelf collapsed and I had my crisis of faith and questioned everything. And especially when you're dedicating your life professionally

9:21to what you feel is the kingdom of God, doing something that you feel is important to the members of the church. And then that rug is ripped out from under you. It's devastating. And that was a really difficult time for me. What was it that ripped the rug out from under you, John? What had happened was, I was going to a living in Utah, going to a ward in Utah. And we had a family in our ward. Every ward has got the royal family, you know, they all had all served in predominant callings and great kids and all of that. And it was one Sunday, we showed up to church one Sunday and you know, the Bishop Rick conducting letter to be read from the state president. And the high counselor stood up and read this letter from the state president that brother so and so, the husband of this royal family of the ward had been excommunicated for conduct on becoming a member of the church. And it was read in front of everybody in sacrament meeting.

10:23And there are gasps and people are crying. And meanwhile, this guy's wife and kids are sitting in sacrament meeting. He's not there, but the family's there. And then the high councilmen sat down and they just went on with the sacrament him and sacrament and the rest of sacrament meeting. Like nothing weird here, you know, everything's fine. Just keep going on. And of course, after the closing prayer was said, everybody flocked around the wife and the kids. And I just thought I could not believe that they did this to this family in front of everybody in sacrament meeting. And to our Bishop's credit, he pushed back on the state president. He did not want that to take place in sacrament meeting. State president insisted, not only was it read in our sacrament meeting, it was in every sacrament meeting in every ward in the stake and every ward in the surrounding stakes. Because they helped that he do. Because usually they're not announcing enough.

11:24And this one, it sounds like they're telling everybody and their dog. Yeah, he'd, he'd fulled around with a co-worker. It's basically what it was. And, but the state president felt that, you know, he was of such prominence that everybody needed to be aware that this guy was, you know, a sinner, watch out. And I just thought this, this guy's children are going to school the next day. And everybody in their schools knows this family's business. And, you know, that was the epitome of all of the things that I think I took issue with relative to the church about, you know, that it, it's just this Henry Ford conveyor belt assembly line, how we do things. And we don't necessarily focus so much on the humanity of it all, but we're doing what we think is right, the letter of the law. And it was enough for me that I went home and I wanted to vent about it, but who do I vent about to this?

12:25And this was before, I think Facebook had really taken off. Maybe my space was just around. And I'm just looking for someplace to vent somebody to talk to and I landed on xmorma.org and went down that rabbit hole. And then that is where my earth, you know, the earth beneath my feet completely shattered. So if the church were prescient enough to form spaces that its own members could talk to each other when they have concerns about things that happen at church, you would not have stumbled upon this website. Yeah, you know, that's a good point. If there was somebody that, you know, that was, you know, a group of members of the church that went, yeah, it's kind of messed up how we did it or how they did it. And yeah, that would have definitely, I would have not have been on xmorma.org. And, you know, to the credit of this, the guy, the husband on our ward, he was pretty chill about it.

13:27He was just like, yeah, steak president did what he thought he had to do. I don't know anything against him. So kudos to him for that. But I just, I thought there's no humanity here that you're just going to embarrass and humiliate this, this man's family like this. Now, you know, one thing if you do it, maybe in Elder's quorum or relief society, let the adults know, but to put it out there in front of the kids. And that's how it happened. And then of course, the more I went down those rabbit holes, the more I learned. And that was a, that was a rough ride. Kept it from my wife at the time, my kid's mom, and probably waited about four or five months before I finally said something. But, you know, that was kind of the end of, you know, the beginning of the end of our marriage. But, you know, that is what it is. And we have a great relationship now. There, you know, the divorce was, was pretty smooth. And, you know, the kids came out great.

14:27So it all worked out well. But yeah, that's where it all began for me. Yeah, you know, you, when we look back again, some of the movies that you've been involved in, and within a believing culture, and again, poking fun at the things that you sort of get annoyed by or notice or sort of awkward or inappropriate about Mormon culture. But eventually you start to think an idea of creating an ex-Mormon musical. And I want to ask like before the musical became a tangible idea, what was the beginning sort of a creation of that? And how did you come to go like, you know what? That might be kind of interesting. Yeah, having gone through my own cycle of grief, stages of grief, and you know, my anger, and all of that that I went through, I came out on the other side of that. I wound up meeting my wife or shell who went through literally the same kind of journey as I did discovering the truth

15:28and having her shelf collapse and her looking for something else. And the funny thing is is when we met, we didn't meet online or anything, we actually met at a party in person. And we were texting, and the next day she's like, I don't even know what you do. What do you do? And I said, I'm a comedian, and I don't know if you're familiar with any of the Mormon movies from back in the day, but I wrote those. And her response was an explisitive, and then it was like, you wrote those. She said, those were the only movies I would let my kids watch on Sunday. And one of the things my stepdaughter said at our wedding when she was making her toast was, John, we loved you before we even met you. So I had an in with my wife because of the movies and my sense of humor, but because we both had gone on same journeys, you know, we were able to really relate and identify with each other. And we really came into a level of peacefulness

16:28about it all. I did eventually formally resign for the church as did she. And we never, after that process, we really never identified. You know, our identity wasn't ex-mormons. We were living our life in Utah, and it was working out great. And of course, I would meet a lot of ex-mormons who would tell me that after they left the church, they threw out their scriptures and their garments and their Christa statue, but they kept all of the movies. So they always appreciated those movies even after they left. And, but over the years, we had a lot of people that we then saw were leaving the church and then going through their own faith crisis and going through their own challenges and their own struggles. And one of the things that my wife does really well is she works with people who have actually left the church going through their deconstruction process as well as individuals that are looking to level up any areas of their life. But she's really been able to dial in,

17:30to show people, look, there's a better way. And you don't need the church not to be there. You don't need your Mormon friends or family not to, or to change or not to be Mormon for everybody to be able to get along and for you to be happy. So as more people would come to her or friends would talk to us, especially in the last five, seven years seeing an uptick of people that are really leaving the church, more so that would come to us and say, can you help us guide us through this? And then one of our friends, we were hanging out one night and made a joke about, there should be an ex-Mormon in the musical like there was the Book of Mormon musical. And that's what started the whole process in my mind. I thought if we could create something that was funny, that was relatable, that resonated with people. And at the same time, it follows a story arc, an emotional journey that you go through the grief and the anger and all of the conflict that you go through,

18:30but say, you know what, you can find a pathway to peace. And it's calling out some of the absurdity of the culture of the church and the church, but also there's a bit of a mirror held up to, the ex-Mormon community that says, you know, this is kind of where your shortcomings are. This is kind of the things that you're getting hung up on. So we wanted to be able to create something that, you know, offer that pathway of just kind of an aha moment because to me, comedy is about holding up a mirror to somebody. And of course, they're going to agree with that, but then you shatter the mirror, shatter their willed view and say, but beyond the mirror, look, there's something else. And that's kind of what we wanted to do with kind of like the last third of the album in the story arc. Yeah, I think that, again, my hope was that we could play a few of the songs and talk a little bit about them. And I picked four of the songs with that purpose, you just said, which is me noticing certain concepts playing out.

19:34For instance, the first one praised to the man and the man would be me. And I thought it was such a great way to start the musical off because you're taking this nostalgic Mormon hymn that we've all sung a thousand times. And you use it to sort of initiate us into the X-Mormon musical and the X-Mormon musical. And I thought that was such a creative way. Any thoughts there before we jump into the song? The funny thing about that song was originally, the first song was going to be every X-member a missionary. And then I had a friend that listened to the album that she was the individual that I'm like, I can't wait for her to hear this because I think she's really going to love it. And then when she heard what we had assembled at the time, she said, well, you know, I own chosusmith.com. Why don't you use chosusmith.com as kind of a landing page

20:34for the album, and which I thought was a brilliant idea. But I'm like, okay, how do I tie that in to make it kind of part of the album? And originally, I was going to call the ensemble cast for the album. It was going to be something like the Colobb first ward road show cast or something like that. And then I thought, well, what if we call it chosusmith presents? And then chosusmith becomes this introductory character at the very beginning of the musical who is now looking back over the last 200 years at kind of what has happened as a result of him. And then saying, you know, you've heard the testimonies of the faithful members. Well, why don't you hear from the ex members of the church and what they have gone through? And that's kind of how, and so that, the first song was actually, I think, one of the last songs that we had written for the album.

21:36And then of course, I had the idea, well, what better way of using praise to the man? Because it's in the public domain. So we could use that melody for that particular song. So praise to the man and that man would be me with a little bit of a little bit of a ego there for that. Yeah, let's take a listen. I'll put this up on the stage. And my hope is that Spotify will not throw an ad in somewhere in the middle of the song. We'll just see how this all goes. But this was the first song to the soundtrack, praise to the man, the man that would be, as you just said. So here it is. Brothers and sisters, we shall now be pleased to hear from our founder and first prophet, President Joseph Smith. MUSIC Praise to the man and that man would be me.

22:39Joseph Smith self-appointed, profiting and seer. I started a church now worth hundreds of billions. Jesus was meager, but now investments are revered. Hail to myself for all I accomplished, faithful apologists are debating in vain. Mingling with girls and I called it religion. In death, I'm still tooping over and over again. MUSIC You've heard the testimonies from all of the members, but what happens when the real truth you finally find out? They say you can leave, but not leave it alone. What do they expect when your world all comes crashing down? Hail to myself for the cast now, assembled singing songs

23:42in which the faithful will take great offense. And ensemble, sharing ex, Mormon perspectives, I give to you the cast call. Joseph Smith presents. MUSIC MUSIC MUSIC MUSIC I have a buddy of mine who's still in the church. Some of the songs, he didn't necessarily like, but he did laugh at Mingling with girls and I called it religion. MUSIC I've heard that song three or four times now and I chuckle at that spot every time. That is definitely one of the, because I'm looking through the lyrics of praise to the man. There were some things that I wanted to parody in there instead of Mingling with girls.

24:46MUSIC Yeah, he sure was bringing them all into his home. MUSIC It's also a great way to start off. People are asking, and I want you to at least get a chance to speak to this, but they're asking if these are AI programs that are doing the things. MUSIC We've absolutely been transparent about that. And the backstory to that is to do this, the way that we wanted to do it, with this broad way of feel, with different characters in this orchestra, that was going to cost an awful lot of money. And this was a passion project. This was a labor of love. But I'm also really about the technology ever since I was in film school. It was about how can, I always love the evolution of technology, especially when I saw editing on a computer for the first time. I was like a caveman to fire. And because of where the technology was, I said, you know what?

25:48I also want to push the envelope to see what we can do to create this musical using this technology. And it's not like we were setting out to make a serious album and we're going to break into the music business. We set out to make a seriously fun and funny album for a specific niche group that I kind of felt was in my will house in my lane. And I thought this would be perfectly appropriate for that. But it's a lot more. It took us 11 months to make this album. And it's so much more than typing in a prompt and saying, you know, give me a song. Give me, you know, like in an afternoon, you crank out an entire album. It was certainly not that. My wife and I wrote all of the lyrics. But when you're inputting it to the program that we used, there is so much musical direction. My wife is classically trained. She was a second chair at the University of Utah Symphony. So she understood all of the musical mechanics.

26:48I understood all of the sound design, sound engineering mechanics. And but to go through, you know, I think we've got songs that there were 2,000 generations of just to kind of get close to the sound or the feel that we wanted to. But then of course from that, there's a lot of manual intensive labor where I'm piecing different songs together. Most of those songs, they're about four or five different takes versions of one song, you know, put together to create the final product. So for us, it was either we could sing these songs in our head. And you know, nobody else will hear them or utilize this technology to put out something where I think there was an opportunity for, you know, for the X-Morma community. And doing that in a way that was funny, I felt this was something that was perfectly appropriate for that. Wait.

27:51This is a guy on mute trying to tell the guy on mute. He's on mute. This is the blind leading the blind. I was just going to say if somebody who uses AI all the time in the modern moment, I'm very well aware of the musical programs that are out there that will create a song for you. And it was so obvious to me when I listened to this song, the song, the song, the song was a song, And it was so obvious to me when I listened to this, that this was one where you would have had to have plugged in every piece of what that music was supposed to turn out like. This wasn't just something that you went into, an AI music creator program and said, put a song together, here's my lyrics, make it happen. This was much more complicated. It was a lot more because you're not only taking the song, once you have the song, you're then separating all of the individual pieces of the song. The lyricist or the vocalist, the backing vocals, the brass, the piano, the drums, the bass, and you're separating all of that. So you've got six to 10 different components for each song

28:55that I would go through to make sure had the sound that I was looking for, cutting in pieces, editing things out, patching stuff in. And that's why I took 11 months to do this. Yeah, it's a long time to be working on it. Before we jump into the next song, I do wanna ask you, again, that first one is Joseph Smith sort of initiating all of us into X-Mormon the musical. And I'm just curious, your thoughts back then of Joseph Smith and all the ground you've had to let go of about what the church told us that man was and some of the things that we had to learn on our own about how he behaved that the church never wanted to share, but which was important for us to make up our mind about and where you are today on Joseph, maybe just a little bit about that journey to tie into the song.

29:55The thing that struck me, I think, most recently, was watching the Netflix documentary series, Trust Me, True Profit, I think it was called that guy that tried to take over after Warren Jeff's. And watching that shook, I mean, I'm not really one to scream and yell a little to television, but I was doing it when I watched that. And that really struck a chord with me that I'm like, what he was doing was really no different than all of the things that we've been told about what Joseph was doing. And that kind of put it into a different perspective from me looking back now on Joseph Smith because for the better part of my ex-mormon experience, I was like, yeah, all right, he did these things. And you know, but then seeing something in 2026

30:56really puts something in context for me from, you know, 1840, that period of time. So I, yeah, I have a little bit of a different perspective on him now than I think that I previously did. The documentary Trust Me, regarding Samuel Bateman who breaks off from the Warren Jeff's group. And just so easily, so easily seems to convince people when you watch the documentary, there's so many places where he's sort of like a bumbling goofball jumping on rocks and wants to be famous for the videos he's creating of that and thinks he's, you know, doing parkour and wants to invite everyone to, and wants to invite the Queen of England to come to America and to sort of see their group and to get a firsthand experience. And another documentary that I saw, I think it's on Netflix as well, which is Twin Flames.

31:57And it's about a religious cult that's run by a young husband and wife, they're in there maybe early 20s. And they're just bumbling. And yet they have hundreds and hundreds and it just keeps growing and growing. And they trick these people. They trick heterosexual men into marrying other men. They trick homosexual women into marrying and heterosexual relationships. They trick some of them into cutting off their genitals. I mean, it just far extremes. And it just becomes so clear to me that all you really need is somebody with some charisma. And it takes so little, it doesn't take that much intelligence. It takes a few little behavioral patterns and you can easily get someone. And then eventually a whole group of people to believe the thing that you're doing is true. And as you were pointing to the trust me, that was sort of the thing that came across as I watched that was, it just doesn't take much. There was the two guys that were sort of his right hand men

33:02who came to the Jews of thousands of dollars who committed atrocious acts themselves. But genuinely thinking they were doing what the Lord wanted them to do, it to me that's just crazy. Yeah, well the other thing to that too is, and even after I left the church and people would say, oh, it's a cult. I mean, you're throwing that term around loosely. But the people in that documentary that were just like, whatever he says, that's what we do. And I'm like, those people are really no different than how a lot of members of the church are whatever the prophet says, the prophet, and that's the word of God. And I don't fault anybody for, if the church, our philosophy is, if the church works for somebody, we're not trying to take that away from for anybody.

34:04We've got friends and family members that are active in the church, and we fully honor and support what they are doing. And we don't look at ourselves as the grim reaper of anybody's faith. But if there is somebody that has left the church and is going through that difficult period of time, that's where we kind of look at ourselves as being able to be available for people, which of course is the purpose of the album. But yeah, just, and I remember my mindset, whatever the prophet says, that's the word of God, whatever the bishop says, that's the word of God. And I just look back on a lot of things now, and I go, man, yeah, I hate the church, when you step outside and you look back in, and there are things that I shut better about now, that I just go, yeah, I was just politely going along without questioning anything.

35:06I guess I did question. I was a little rebellious in some areas. Yeah. The next song that wanted to play is every fiber of my being, and it leads right into this. You know, you really get into the believing Latter-day St on the front end of a faith crisis where they are so sure it's true. They have so much certainty. And their testimony has been rooted in an emotional response. And now they're beginning to evaluate that and throughout the song you see this believer shift over the course of a couple of minutes from what they're certain of to not be so sure anymore. And I just, I wanted to ask like, how hard that was for you? Again, because it was really important to be part of the Mormon culture and putting out things and to lose your testimony.

36:09Any thoughts there? Yeah, I mean, initially when I was reading things that there were some things that maybe I was familiar with from when I went on my mission that people had said, but now I'm reading a little bit more context and I'm reading more sources. And I just, I remember just the absolute despair and sheer terror. Initially it was just despair and terror because for me it was like, this has been my entire life. This is everything that I have lived for, every decision that I have made. And you know, on that line in the song, every decision that I have made, it's been because of the church where I went to school going on a mission, you know, getting married. All of these things were done because I'm like, I'm doing what the Lord wants me to do. And so going through that initial par and terror

37:11and then of course not knowing, well, I thought I had all the answers. I thought I had it all figured out. I knew where I came from, I knew I was here, I knew where I was going. And then when that rug is ripped out from under you, just the despair and the feeling of being lost was so crushing to me. And so that is, you know, in that song, you know, that goes through that journey, you hear things and then you've got your cognitive dissonance, you're trying to justify some things here and there. But then the end, you can't deny it. And that's what that song is all about. Yeah, did you spend time trying to put the toothpaste back in the tube? Or I don't think, I don't think no. I don't think I went through a period of time where I was trying to justify. If anything, it was probably maybe a few days, you know,

38:12I would, so I'm going down this rabbit hole and I'm trying to make some sense and maybe I'm trying to figure out, you know, how to make sense of it to process it. But then the more I looked, I'm like, there's just no way. I can't, I can't justify any of this stuff. I can't put any square pegs around holes. And so yeah, once that, once that rug was ripped out from under me, that rug was gone and I wasn't trying to stand back up on top of it again. Yeah, let me play that song. When we get finished with a song, RFM, I'm wondering if maybe, if you would take just a minute, because I know that you and I have had similar journeys. This song resonated with me. I really like to know your thoughts. When we come back at the end of the song to talk about it. So here is every fiber of my being. I'm going to turn the sound on and here it is. I love my whole life in this church.

39:21It was more than just believing. I knew it was true with every fiber of my being. Every major life decision was made without any guessing. I fasted, I prayed, memorized my patriarchal blessing. And now nothing is sure. Nothing is certain. Seeing the wizard revealed behind science curtain, it's the stages of grief on a roller coaster. That's what I feel. I'm like a grown-up, learning Santa Claus, is it real? No, eternal happiness was the fate for phony. Occasion buschups always asking questions, quizzing me on masturbation, spent two years in mongoli attracting in the snow, turned down Stanford to attend BYUI to home, proposed to my wife, on our very first date, had seven kids by the time I was 28,

40:24day typing on my growths every single year, even when my mortgage was munched in a rear. Every fiber of my being you. Every fiber said it's true. Every fiber testified, and every fiber fetching light. I fought valiantly in the war in heaven, chose to come to earth. That's what they said. It was Heavenly Father's plan from the moment of my birth. Worthy of the priesthood, temple marriage started a family. Saddiess to every calling at the risk of my own sanity. I was the kind of faithful member who made our kids dress in Sunday clothes. For every session of general conference, we watched at home.

41:28I thought I had the truth, yes. An eternal knowing where I came from, why I was here. Where I was going, I remembered what I stood for and held to the rod. I followed the prophet, they said he spoke for God. It was the restored gospel, the only truth church with the keys and authority on the face of the earth. I was enduring to the end no matter what I would withstand it. So I could have eternal life on my very own planet. Every fiber of my being knew. Every fiber said it's true. Every fiber testified, and every fiber fetching light. It is there even a God, or Jesus, is any religion true? What's it all about? I went from having all the answers to having no clue.

42:29Just questions, no burning in the bosom. Just pissed off. That's my fire. Maybe we die. That's it, lights out. We're all known. The wiser. Every fiber of my being knew. Every fiber said it's true. Every fiber testified, and every fiber. Fucking us! Yeah, I felt tricked, RFM.

43:31Your thoughts and feelings as you listen to an expression of what it's like to put everything into it and lose it. Let me tell you something. I had a really interesting experience last night. That experience was listening to the soundtrack for the first time, all 20 songs in order. Because I happened to have had John's phone number, I started texting him with thoughts I had as I was listening and going through. And he was kind enough to text back. So we have this running conversation going really for pretty much the entire album. It shifted over to Moana too without my knowing it. And I thought that was one of your songs. But I figured that went out. Anyway, it was absolutely amazing. This is one of the songs that captured me. And the reason why is because the Mormon church, when I joined it, was the most amazing organization in the world. It was the one true church of God.

44:32And the reason I joined it is because I wanted to do more than anything what God wanted me to do. And that's why I went on my mission. That's why I did the whole Mormon thing. And I say this only because it is very easy for me at this stage in my life to look back on all of this and say, what an idiot I was. And how could I believe something that was so ridiculous? When if I allow myself to go back into the moment, I'm doing it because it's true. And because it's what God wants me to do, I am doing it for the purest and most noble of reasons. It's only in retrospect that it becomes a bit distorted perhaps. But this song, the value and the beauty of this song to me, John, is that it helps me recapture what it felt like joining the church and the incredible beauty of it, the excitement of it, the thrill of it, all of it together.

45:38And it is only sad that it's not true, that at one time it was and this song recaptures that for me. Thank you. Thanks for sharing that. And because you had told me last night, I think it was right around the song that you're like I joined because I thought it was this. And that was the same thing for me, joining because we thought we were part of God's true church. And we had the knowledge that nobody else had. We had we had it all figured out. And the one thing that I do have to say, because I did go through that period of anger about my life, looking back now, though, I realize that the life that I am blessed with today, my kids and my wife and everything that I've experienced has been because of my journey in the church. And I wouldn't go back in time travel and change any of that.

46:40My experience in the church actually was really positive aside from the quirky things that would happen here and there and some of the run-ins I might have with some of the members or the bishops or that sort of thing. But having shaped my life and the me opportunity to create those movies for the culture. And but now being where I'm at and saying I'm creating something that I think is kind of the second act of what those movies were. You know, creating something from my perspective now because there wouldn't have been this album if it wasn't for those, you know, those movies. But saying I can create a message that I can share with the ex-mormon community. And that's that was really the whole reason of doing this. I wanted to we wanted to create something that would be funny and in some dark moments around dark things.

47:41To be able to get people to laugh to have some catharsis. And field they're not alone. That was one of the things that I one of the somebody emailed me and she said, listening to this album, I felt like I wasn't alone. I felt like it was, you know, an ex-mormon community putting their arms around me and giving me a hug. And that right there personifies the whole reason why, you know, we wanted to we wanted to put this out there. And you know, the means that we did to create it. For me, the reasons of doing that and the reception and what people have shared with us about how they felt stories like yours. That to me is that's exactly why we did this. So thank you for, you know, from sharing that with me. You're very welcome and thank you to you too. Bill, you asked me about this song, which makes me think maybe you were impacted by it too. Were you? Yeah. So two things. And then we'll see where this what tangents this goes off and do. But first, as you point out, RFM, like you thought you joined the true church.

48:46But the only reason you I, John, the reason we thought we joined the true church, we could was because the church created a carefully crafted message that wanted us to know that Mary Elizabeth Rollings Lightner saved the book of commandments, but didn't want us to know she was a plural wife of Joseph Smith. Yes, these are the ones I always go to because they they make the point pointedly. They they wanted us to know the story in a certain way so that we would follow step upon step upon step and be manipulated into having a spiritual experience and then commit our life to a thing. And what I discovered was that I was tricked when I get to the end of my deconstruction when I get to the end of stop trying to put the toothpaste back in the tube. I realized like, oh, like they weren't honest about anything. And so the line at the end about, you know, every fiber, you know, fucking lied. That's how I felt. And so John, like you're saying, I don't regret it. If I had to go back in time, I wouldn't change anything.

49:52It made me mean it puts me here and I love my life and I love who I am. But when I say that, often the believer hears, yeah, like why do you pick on us and like, why criticize the church? Why why shine a light on the things it does. Well, because just because I like who I am and I like where my life ended up doesn't grant the church any sort of permission to tell the lie all along the way. It had a responsibility when it set itself up as the only true church in the world. And it told me that it was the only source that I could trust for the truth. And then to find out it lied about everything, every historical story, every faith promoting story, every, every piece of doctrine and theology that shifted and moved. It doesn't get to do all that to me and then go, well, you're happy with where you're at and you're happy with who you are. You should be grateful. You abuse me. You lied to me and you manipulated me all along the way.

50:55Kudos on me and kudos on all those people out there who figured it out, who wanted to be better, who took their own human growth seriously and got lucky to some extent that their life ended up in a great place. So you have in any way that that's my thoughts. You know, there were there was a song that I entertained I started to write. But it did it didn't make it didn't make the album. But it was it was going to be the perspective of the next moment having a dream where he, you know, in the dream, the church came out and said, yeah, you're right. It's not true. And it's, you know, it's all BS. And then kind of going down the rabbit hole of what would a world look like? If the church came out and said, yeah, you're right. Okay. It's, it's all BS. Either certainly would be a lot of cheering. But I, there would be a lot of personal devastation for a lot of, a lot of people. And I said this to somebody once I said, you know, if the church came out and did that, you'd have, you'd have members of the church jumping out of windows.

52:01And so it's like, you know, that the saying about companies and the economy, they're too big to fail. Well, it's like you has become too big to actually tell the truth to the world to because of, you know, the impact of that. And it's like, man, how do you navigate that? Well, you know, and it's, it's been very interesting times for me to see what the last, you know, for me, 20 years, you know, have been, and it'll be very curious to see what the next, you know, 20 years, you know, look like. The, the, the ultimate thing that is probably most damning to the church is just the evolution of time. Because this things go on. I mean, growing up in the 80s, we were all thought there was going to be nuclear war and the Holocaust and the, you know, Jesus is coming back at any minute. And every generation goes through that. But, but, you know, I could certainly never imagined in the 90s what the 2000s would have, have brought, you know, for the church. And then what might lie ahead relative to, um, how things unfold.

53:18Yeah. I think it's a great point that the longer we go, we can't always be in the 11th hour and we can't always have this generation reserved from the pre mortal life for these days. At, at some point, those narratives get old. And I think they're starting to stale now. Yeah, I remember when I was, when I was at BYU, I, who's the cartoonist for the Salt Lake Tribune, Bagley, what's his first name? You know, I'm talking about right? Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, let's say Pete, but I don't know if that's it. Yeah, but Bagley's his last name of a non-mistake. And he, at one point, was a faithful member of the church, I guess. And he had put out some cartoons, you know, of a cartoon book of, you know, jokes, you know, one panel cartoons about, about the church. And there was one where it was like missionaries, tracting on the moon. And I, I'll thank you, Pat Bagley, yeah.

54:18And I remember, you know, I saw that there was a guy that I was, you know, reading the book with and, and he said, you know, if it gets to that point, then you know the church is not true. And I was kind of offended by that. I was like, how can you say that if, you know, the church might not be true, but yeah, if they're, you know, as time goes on and different things happen and different approaches are taken. Yeah, that's, that's because the, you know, they say the church today is not the church that I grew up with in the 80s. And it's certainly not the church that it was in the 50s and the 60s. Certainly not 100 years before that. Yet God is the same yesterday today and forever. You know, when they, they, they talk about saving the very best for last, the very elected, they're the strongest and they're the most special. Then why are the garments getting shorter? The garment should be longer if anything. They should come with like eye holes and finger holes. Because the members now are able to, they're able to take that kind of commitment.

55:20And point he has. I'm just glad to find out that I wasn't really in the chosen generation because God would have catastrophed that would have been in. The further we get away saying like, oh, this, you know, the righteous generation, well, at least that explains Brick of Young, right? Like the further we get away from the founders and the, the managers who came shortly thereafter. The more we can maybe acknowledge like those guys were a lot more flawed than we want to admit. The trouble is we can't really admit the current guys have any flaws until they die and then, then maybe we can abandon what they say. Bill, I know you want to go on. Can I just bring up one other thing and maybe it'll lead to something important, not you just drop it. It does strike me that there really was a different attitude as a Mormon before the year 2000. And then there has been after the year 2000. It's easy to overlook that. But there was such a confluence of events. First off, you got the year 2000. It's the 6000th years since Adam and Eve. We know that, right?

56:22And that's a big deal. So we know Jesus is coming back and now in the 1940s, we've got nuclear weapons able to destroy all of mankind. You go further up and you've got, what do you have? You've got that white 2K. You've got everything that's coming together for Jesus coming back. And we, there seems to be a finality to the system of things that I and I think other Mormons are envisioning. It's limited shelf life. We're almost ready to move into the new order of things. But now that end, it was still, we didn't know exactly when it was. It was going to be around the year 2000. Now it's kind of gone all together. And I feel like we're just hanging in limbo now. Yeah, I can't be, I can't come a thousand years from now or certainly can't come 2000 years from now. The church would have to recalculate. It's theology around dispensations and the timeframes for those for sure. That's when they get the latter day out of the name. Yeah.

57:22And you know, you guys are also speaking of, I mean, there is a day where there's going to be people of color in the quorum of the 12. They can't go 200 more years, not having a black person in leadership. And when you start to increase your diversity, it deeply shapes the conversations you can have and the conversations you can't have when you're 15 old white men in a room talking to each other versus having diversity in the room. And so there is ground that they are not in this present moment wanting to give up. But the shifts they are willing to make today and the shifts they'll have to make tomorrow will inevitably lead to shifts that they don't currently wish to make. So Mormonism continues to change. The thing I wanted to ask you about next John, so the song we're going to slowly work towards is, is the bishops hotline, which you know as we're talking about the church lying to us and having spaces of harm and some of us were lucky to get through Mormonism with a relatively good experience.

58:32There are some who are taught really unsafe boundaries. Yeah. And this one was one for me that I was like, and man, I, I went down such a rabbit hole when I started to read the stories because I was aware of these things. But then man, when I when I went down that rabbit hole and I was reading, you know, about cases and news articles and that sort of thing. You know, that made me live it. And you know, on the one hand, I'm thinking, you know, you want to create an album that is about healing. This isn't that this particular song. You know, there's not really healing in there. But what it does do, I wanted to put a spotlight on something. And to be able to do it in a way that, you know, you're not making fun of the situation, but you are making fun of the way the situation is handled and the perspective that the church, you know, the church takes on that.

59:44And I felt that that was a pretty important thing to do because to me, you know, comedy is the intersection of, you know, perspective and opinion and sometimes darkness. So I wanted this song to just be that stinging illumination of of of this situation. And but I wasn't sure when I when I was writing it, you know, I thought, do I even want to put something like this on here. And where do I even begin? And the only thing that I could think of when I first started to entertain writing the song was popcorn popping. I look out the window and what do I see popcorn popping on me. So then I came to me, well, the bishop picks up the phone and what is he here? And you know, the original, the original version of the song actually said the church is law firm name. But let's do lawyers on retainer covering the Mormon churches rear. And that's how the whole thing kind of came together. And I wrote that and did a rough demo of that.

1:00:48It must have been four in the morning. And I go to bed finally and I'm wired because I've just got energy and I'm still thinking about the song and running through it. And when my wife got up around 530 and I said, I'm, you know, I'm still awake. I said, I, I, do you want to hear a song that I did. And she was like, yes, absolutely. And I thought she was going to go no way absolutely not we're not doing this. But when she heard it. And she said, she laughed, but she also was, you know, laughing because of the stinging rebuke of the absurdity, the lunacy of the way these situations are handled. And she said, yep, you know, that's going on on the album did a little bit more fine tuning of the lyrics, but that's, that's how that had that how that came to be is a moment of saying, this is something that deserves to be illuminated and talked about. Yeah. RFM and I just got back from the post Mormon celebration cruise 207, 210 of us who have been through a faith crisis deconstructed Mormonism and wanted to celebrate all that goes into a person going through all of that.

1:02:05And one of the influencers who came on the cruise with us was Sam Young. Yeah. And Sam, what I find interesting about Sam, I'm just trying to picture you know this if anybody knows Sam Young, he's just so there's just a lot of goodness in him and he he really just wants to make his world, the world of Mormonism, he just wanted to make it a better place. I'm trying to imagine a really good human being going to the leaders of a healthy church and saying, hey, maybe you've got a blind spot. But a kid should not be in a room with a stranger man where that stranger man has permission to ask questions of a sexual nature. And Sam even set it up so that he goes on the streets of Salt Lake to wash the feet of people who will come up and talk to him about the issue. He extended an invitation to the apostles that he would wash their feet.

1:03:05And rather than make just a healthy change, they excommunicate Sam Young and then make the change he asked for in part. Shortly thereafter, essentially saying you were right Sam, we should have done something different here, but shame on you from the bottom up telling us that we needed to make the change. Well, if a person at the bottom of an organization says, hey, you at the top, you may not see your blind spots. Maybe we could do more to stop child abuse and namely, we could certainly stop having stranger man meet with kids behind closed doors all by himself. And in the church, even in making their change, what they essentially said is we still want the go to standard to be stranger man gets to meet with kids alone and only if parents have the wherewithal to ask. Does a second adult get to be in the room?

1:04:07And when I listen to this song, again, I know you can maybe hear a touch of emotion on my part when I listen to this song, you using again, I think humor trying to go, hey, church, you're missing it. And it is so obvious. And I'm going to use humor to just make that as loud as possible. I'll say one more thing and then any thoughts from you and then I'll play it. Making it a primary song. Yeah, it's singing makes it so much more personal. Yeah, and that was my that was my intent. I thought if this is going to be done, this is how it has to be done. And you know, if it's done in a way that to me is excoriatingly funny and somebody hears this and that creates awareness and then creates more awareness and more awareness. That was my entire intention to be able to put something together that somebody might listen to laugh, oh my god, I can't believe, you know, they said that, etc. And whatnot, you know, the holy cow.

1:05:15But creating that awareness and putting that illumination on that topic was exactly why I included did the song the way that I did and we included it on the album. Yeah, anything from you are a film. No, I'd like to listen to this again because I'm sort of remembering bits and pieces of it. Yeah, I think in the end what bothered them about Sam Young was that he shamed and embarrassed them. And I think in some ways this song does the same thing. So here it is. This next song contains satire, dark humor and is protected by the first amendment as parody and social commentary. It also references publicly reported accounts, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, wishes you'd forget. In primary we learn to pray and talk to our father above. We thank him for all that we have and for the Savior's love.

1:06:22We fold our arms and bow our head and kneel beside our bed and ask him to watch over us. And please keep us protected. But when God looks the other way and ignores what he forbids. Like with the creepy ward member who really likes little kids. The bishop calls the hotline and what does he hear? Lawyers on retainer covering the Mormon Church's rear. Oh, the Church has legal protection when a peedown makes a confession and records on hold. The bishop knows a lawyer will answer the call.

1:07:27They don't have a degree in therapy but they know all about the law. So trust what they say. That's why they're paid because God is adamant about this commandment. Now, shall make this go away. And like the 116 pages given to Martin Harris when the call is over, the record will vanish. Whose shredded the trail will cease. And go by the way, don't call the police. Now good and faithful bishop, it's what you must do. To avoid the bad PR and especially lawsuits. Because God doesn't like writing million dollar checks but you should still pay your tithing on an abuse settlement.

1:08:30Oh, the Church has legal protection when a peedown makes a confession and when God's on hold. The bishop knows a lawyer will answer the call. They don't have a degree in therapy but they know all about the law. So trust what they say. That's why they're paid. It's in everyone's best interest except if you're the victim to make this go away. Yeah, I love that last part. So it's in everybody's interest except if you're the victim to make this whole thing go away. Yeah.

1:09:30Somebody on the cruise said, you know, when I read the New Testament, the two things Jesus didn't like were people who hurt kids in the leaders of his church. And in this church, the leaders of his church, they don't really care that much about kids getting hurt. It really is about protecting the good name of the church, which isn't maybe that good at all. It's like everything Jesus hates in one church. Yeah. Yeah. So there's that. Anyway, that one again, I love how you used humor to shine a light on it and and recognizing again, you said this that it's also a heavy song and yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And one of the more jovial lines in there, you know, God doesn't like writing million dollar cheeks, but you should still pay your tithing on an abuse settlement. Yeah.

1:10:31Just pointing out absurdity. What has again, I listen to the whole thing a friend, I've had actually multiple friends recommend the album and the second time I was out to lunch with a friend and she mentioned it, I thought, well, you know, if so and so is mentioning it and now this friends mentioning it, I've got to give it a listen. And so I went home that day and listened to all of it. And that's when I put the post on Facebook and said, you know, this ex Mormon, the musical and the music by Melody Freiburg are both just so impactful folks. Please go check those out. And you put a comment in that post saying thanks for sharing it. That's when I got reached out to you and said, hey, I'd love to have you on. What has the feedback been, I know you indicated at least in part that people have reached out to you and that found this album to be really helpful and that they connected to it and a lot of people sort of relate to their own journey as they listened to our FM said as much, I know I felt that way too. What has the response been of people who have been listening to this and and have you gotten any critical feedback of people saying like stop making fun of my church or how's that been.

1:11:39The response to it has been just so positive, overwhelmingly positive, which I, you know, my wife and I have been listening to this pretty much in different versions for the last year, you know, driving around in our car. But to have that experience where we put it out there and the whole plan for us was like we're just going to kind of put it out there to kind of do a soft launch, if you will, just kind of some things in our are so different social media platforms. But then watching that from there from one person who's telling two people and those two people are telling other people and then seeing comments and getting direct messages and then emails, which people their personal stories, you know, somebody said I am driving around in my car and I'm belting out the lyrics of every fiber of my being, especially that last, you know, that last line.

1:12:44People that have told me they've listened to just like you or meet me at love and then they're they're bawling because this was their experience and this is what you know they're feeling. There is, you know, a K and it's on social media that you know you'll have somebody who lambast, you know, they're a faithful member of the church and this is, you know, what you're saying isn't true and why you know you can leave the church, but you can't leave it alone, which, you know, Mormons think is the ultimate mic drop that that is the most original line that that they can come up with. They're the matter closed john yeah exactly will dismiss you without any further argument and so it has just been because you know we haven't done any you know advertising or anything which it's just everything has been word of mouth. So just sitting back and then seeing it catch on and gain traction, which is what we were hoping for but the fact of the matter is that we can put it out there and we you know haven't you know it's not like there's billboards or.

1:13:49You know anything like that maybe there will be I don't but we we've not but it's just been word of mouth and people read the album resonating with people and people feeling those emotions you know the laughter catharsis healing all of that is exactly what we we were hoping for. And and you know we all we say to look if if there's somebody who's left the church and they listen to this album and there's some takeaways for them where they can realize some things about how they can more constructively get along with. You know they're there more men friends or family whatever. Then that benefits the members of the church everybody is is better off because everybody's got happier more constructive relationships doesn't make any difference if it came from an album that you know you're going to view a sacrilege and profane the end result is you know people are better off because of it.

1:14:49Yeah I love that the the last song that I wanted to play was one called see it my way you had you had mentioned at the beginning of our conversation that you know the music was also meant to reflect some things back to post more minutes to help us on this side realize that you know maybe we traded some dogma for some other dogman that we still have some blind spots ourselves and I there were a few songs on the. On the on the soundtrack that did that. This was one of them and I want to maybe just give you another moment to talk more about that that you know here you are making an album that is I think really meaningful to the post Mormon community and those who maybe are still in and starting to have questions and doubts and start trying to make sense of things and those the songs point to a lot of the anomalies and Mormonism and if you're listening in your curious then maybe it leads to. Going down further down the rabbit hole but you also again took some songs and as you said sort of showed us a mirror that wasn't exactly like it was the mirror we wanted to see and then you broke the mirror and then we had to sort of look past it and see other things and I think it's a really interesting.

1:16:06What's the word I want to use it's a really interesting style to show somebody the things they want to see but then also go like hey you weren't ready for this little gut punch but you need to see some of the things that you you don't see yet and maybe talk about some of the thoughts in your head as you were plotting out these songs and considering what songs to create that the album does have some songs that reflect back to the post more than thing. Maybe our their blind spots and a lot of that that song too I owe to concepts that my wife Rochelle you know teaches and shares and works with her clients and and the entire mindset behind this is you know people come from this perspective that they need other people to be different in order for them you know to be happy or feel good inside. So it's like my wife says if you're an ex-mormon who needs more minutes to be different than you're no different than the more men who needs ex-mormons to be different or non-mormons to be different where you're placing your entire well-being your emotional state not on your choices or your behaviors but on somebody else's they have to be a certain way.

1:17:25And once they act that way that'll make you you know feel good and I you know I've seen a lot of this was I've had some ex-mormon friends post-mormon friends if that's what the nomenclature is referring to it as now but I had a buddy of mine we were having lunch one day and his family was all still in the church. He had printed out stuff from the internet I mean it was a book a binder that was this thick not no exaggeration and then he take all these videos from the internet and put them together into like this three hour movie and he was going to have his family over and he was going to sit down and have them watch this three hour movie I'm like faithful members they're not going to watch a three hour movies like while doing intermission and we'll discuss things and he just he was so hell-bent. On his family having to see this and know this information and understand this material that it was just driving him not and my wife's entire philosophy is you know that's their experience and yes you may be upset but if the church works for them then allow them that experience allow them their choices.

1:18:47You don't need them to be out of the church or you don't need the church not to exist for you you know to feel good about yourself or your life yeah there's still going to be little things like the stuff we were talking about the bishops hotline and the interviews yeah there's still going to be things that we do deserve to have our attention on and perhaps be vocal about. But when you're showing up to Thanksgiving dinner with your faithful family members and you know it's contention and argument and you want to pass out copies of the CES letter that's not going to help anybody that's not going to benefit anybody and you know my my wife is such a great example because you know she comes from a place where she just calls it you know Christid consciousness that I will treat these people. I will treat them with love and with kindness and that will be my testimony to them that will be my example to them and then sure enough of course over the years my wife has had friends and family members that have come to her and said okay now we're you know we're going through this we read this we saw this.

1:19:59My wife never chose to try to force that down anybody's throat she never answered more than she was asked and she only ever gave information you know she wasn't trying to force anything on anybody so so this song comes from the fact that you know Mormons need us to be a certain leave it alone you can leave the church but you and then the X Mormons it's the same way we need the Mormons to see this to read this to believe this to understand this and that's essentially where. That entire song came from coming from a place of neediness needing other people to be a certain way for us to be happy. Hey Bill here i'm here you go. I keep wanting to switch over the other monitor so i can grab the video or the song let's play it and then when we get done playing it R.F.M i want to know your thoughts on this song but i also want to know your thoughts on anything else that caught your. Year or mind as you went through the album last night and then we'll just have a couple last questions and we'll get folks on their way and but i really thought this was such a creative venture on your part and resells part and.

1:21:15I really think one of the hardest songs on the album to do by the way. Because I had to do a male version and then a female version and then I had to intercut so there was a every every inter you know other other line I mean that was that was you know not not only just getting the performance and then editing everything together but. It was basically one male track and a female track and then cutting them cutting them together it that that one was the bane of my existence for about a week. Yeah you almost have to create both songs for both genders all the way through and then sort of cut them in place that's exactly how I did it yeah that's interesting okay here is here is the song see it my way. Your my big brother and you need to repent you forsaken your temple.

1:22:15Stop believing the lies about church history. Said Satan the lights in your misery. Little sister you need to read the links I've emailed it's all there in black and white every single detail start thinking for yourself don't buy the church. I'm happier now than I've ever been. You need to hold strong to the iron rod you need to give it up you're not becoming a god you need to pray and you need to fast you need to pull the iron rod out from your ass. You need to know that Joseph never lie you need to know the facts the guy had forty why you need to know your eternal families. You need to Google fatty out your in the barn. I won't but won't spend I won't break you're the one.

1:23:15I have to see my way everything that you believe it's all made up you're being deceived you're in the wrong you're in the dark. I see the light and nothing's going to change it's my identity. So I need you to be different so I can finally be happy. You need to humble yourself and nothing's a fraud. You need to stop covering your ears going la la la la. You need to follow the profit he won't lead us astray. You need to listen to everything I have to say you need to read the book of Mormon is the most correct book. You need to research the plates from Kinderhook you need to know how I feel and disappointed in you. You need to know how I feel you're being a fool. I won't but won't spend I won't break you're the one who has to see in my way everything that you believe it's all made up.

1:24:19You're being deceived you're in the wrong you're in the dark. I see the light and nothing's going to change it's my identity. I need you to be different so I can finally be happy. Are you a fan of your thoughts on other songs in the album this song anything else that the cut your eye. I'm hearing the man today and changes ways tomorrow. Yeah, everybody. That is something that song I think that's great and it's something that I know that as a Mormon and as an active Mormon I was very keen on the responsibility I had to share the gospel with other people. And it was very I didn't like it.

1:25:19It wasn't something I wanted to do it was embarrassing to me but I still felt I was supposed to do it because of course the church can't be satisfied until everybody's a Mormon and or at least got the opportunity and that's where I come in. Since I left Mormonism and by that I mean I've stopped being an active member of the church and a believing member of the church though I'm still a Mormon technically. The greatest relief that I've ever felt in my life was at the end of every month not having to call my what was it my priesthood person to report my home teaching for the month. And that actually synopsize is so much it's all the burden and everything the church wanted to put on me that I was responsible for doing and that I could not rest unless I did it which meant I didn't do it a lot so I spent a lot of time feeling guilty about it.

1:26:20And I don't know if that's the same as other people in the church but leaving the church I fortunately I did it over a long enough period that I didn't feel the need to try and convert people out of the church but I had the same experience that I don't feel the need to have to convert anybody to my way of thinking anymore I think I said this on the cruise at one point bill. And it's just an amazing relief to be able to think how I think and to allow other people the same privilege without me trying to influence that. Yeah that that our validation that Mormonism is not true it is that I don't need anyone else to agree that it's not true for me to know what my brain tells me. That's my truth and so I thought in the song john it was brilliant the again I need you to see it my way for for me to be okay and we all just have to get a little more comfortable the believers need to get more comfortable that there's a lot of people who see a lot of problems and they don't agree that the church is true.

1:27:27And we're going to have to get comfortable that not everybody left in our family and friends circle that stayed in the church is ever going to come around. And so we've got a piece of that and wasn't there some lyric it may not have been in this song and maybe it wasn't I skipped it but that reference the other side of that where faithful Mormons send their earring or wayward family members copies of general conference talks from the enzyme. Oh yeah that was that was the song meet me at love which my wife had had written about her relationship with with her mother my mother loves you know 89 years old and when my wife left the church it was really obviously incredibly painful for her her parents and so you know the line that you know you're sending me quotes you know articles from the enzyme and and quote. And that was all stuff that you know that my wife had experienced with her mother and then of course you know my mother not being worried that you know my wife we you know was into tarot cards and astrology and all that sort of thing and.

1:28:40But at the end of that song it's like look you can still send me or dwarfed quotes and i'm not going to be upset and you don't have to be afraid that I use tarot cards and you know when we meet each other at love then it's all we can be who we feel that we are and who we deserve to be and not everybody being upset. And i'm wearing my tarot card t shirt. And then of course the big you know the one song that I think really drives home a lot of this is the song we talked about a little bit on the text thread last night was mental consecration where it's you know and that was my friend who compiled this book and wanted to have his family want to three hour long movie he had asked me if you could live anywhere where would you be I said I love living in Utah and he's like I'm going to be a little bit more. And he's like really every time I drive by a temple I get so upset every time I buy try by I get so upset so that line that how the song opens you know I drive by a Mormon temple wherever I was going flip them off and scream here's my sign and token.

1:29:46But the realization is you know you don't probably feel the same way when you drive by a you know a Catholic church or a Methodist church or the the Christian temple in Spanish fork you don't have the same anger and attachment to that so it's like. Guess what you can not have that same attachment when it comes to things relative to the Mormon church you know you spent your whole life giving your time in your talents you know just quit the mental consecration part quit don't let the church live inside your you know your head and that's what that song was was was the guy just complete pleaded a 20 song musical soundtrack all about this very subject I was going to say when he was saying. He knew somebody who had created a three inch binder and it was insistent that everybody read the thing I thought that's so silly why not just create a couple thousand episodes of podcast material yeah that's the easiest that's the easy way to do it there it is. I was going to say that the thing is though there's always going to be a need you know for for for content like this and the whole thing is you know the people that say you could leave the church and not leave alone they're not really talking about individuals they're talking about a concept because the thing is the person that leaves the church you know they're angry today and they go through the stages of grief well guess what in six months or a year from now they're going to move on.

1:31:14They're going to move on they're going to find their their identity and their peace but somebody else you know is going to be you know that's in the temple today six months from now is going to be leaving the church you're always going to have graduating classes of ex Mormons but you're always going to have new incoming freshmen classes of ex Mormons and content like this and what you know the other podcasters do is this is people deserve this they to find. Those those answers I look at it is like you're not continuing to harp on something but you're sharing something somebody's received that they understand that they feel heard and they're moving on in life but somebody else is coming down the road I agree with you that you know I agree with you that people deserve this but more than that I think the church deserves this podcast. To what you said john people are waking up every day and the people who are waking up today don't know about Fanny Alger in the bar they don't know about the paper him doesn't match the papyri they don't they don't know about the kindergarten plates or the anachronisms in the book of Mormon so yes whether it's music whether it's historical podcast or conversations around current events there needs to be voices out there.

1:32:36That help the next generation of people waking up to make sense of it so very good. I the last question I've got for you and then our FML see if you've got anything else you want to ask but what do what do we do with this now so you've got the music. Who people notice but when I played the sound and put the Spotify up on the screen there was also some animation up in the top right hand corner that showed like Joseph Smith looking in a hat for instance i'm just curious what the do you have a bigger plan for this to get this out in front of more people in. In a different form we talked a little bit about that before the show started your thoughts on that yeah you know right you know having spent 11 months and cranking this out you know it's been out I think for just about you know two months now and I've just been watching the streams rise and grow and i've also kind of step back and and and relaxed a little bit but have but but people have. Come to me and said this deserves to be an actual musical and it's funny I i've had some friends that I you know was involved with you know in the in the films back in the day that have said it's okay it's it's time to start thinking a little bit bigger about this because normally somebody writes a play the stage play and then the music comes as a result of that I just thought it would be more interesting and fun to create a soundtrack that sounded like it was from.

1:34:02From a real musical but seeing the response and how it's resonated with people my wheels are now turning on going okay let's. How can we make this actually happen now so i've been i've got i've got ideas for how that would how that would play out that i'm starting to outline and see where it goes. Well that's exciting I think putting this out in any other format just increases the number of people. Who listen to it who get the message and who it will resonate with radio free more than any other thoughts from you yeah something it just occurs to me right now and it's only because it's something that's not in the album and it's always harder for me to realize what's not in the album than what is in the album. What is not in the album is anything that's false. And that's remarkable because a lot of people out there have the idea that to make an album or a song that's critical of the LDS church you have to engage in saying things that are not true or partially true or spun in some way but everything that you said about the church and about the experience in the church that I could tell in all 20 of these songs.

1:35:22There was nothing in it that was remotely false or a false note so I just wanted to say that because I think it deserves saying. Thank you. Yes, if we were going to do an album or a musical with false stories we'd call that Paul H done the musical and I think they've already got the book of Mormon musical. Yeah, but yeah thank you for that because all of all of those experiences were felt experiences that you know that my wife and I went through you know to one degree or another and hearing people say yep I can relate that's exactly what I what I went through so I I appreciate you you sharing that and pointing that out and you know the album it's streaming. The album it's streaming on all music platforms all of the streaming links can be found at Joseph Smith dot com I know that's a hard domains to remember but.

1:36:23Chos Smith dot com you can find streaming links there just search Joseph Smith presents X Mormon the musical soundtrack and if you really if you really love the album you can support us you can you know download your your own copy of the album right there Joseph Smith dot com or just. Just stream it on your favorite music platform. Really good well I have one last question I gave a little comment to bill in the private chat there just a second ago. Just wanted to know if that's okay with you bill. Yeah yeah by all means okay well unexpectedly someone showed up in a place for Mongolia where one of the songs talks about saying two years on a mission. And since he's here let's go ahead let's bring diamond Dave on I'll give my last comment in question to him how about that. It's going on guys how are you doing good did you notice that thing about Mongolia in the song I did in that kind of raised in eyebrow because not many missionaries get sent out here for very obvious reasons.

1:37:31And the mission presidents don't tend to last long here either they get the reason to Japan so. Yeah I just had a couple questions the first one was because I see some people in the comments just kind of going back and forth about the AI I know like I like it the theme is good and you mentioned your kind of you know you're open about it being AI. Have you like received any backlash for using AI because I know in America anyway AI is highly controversial when it comes to like generative AI and AI for music and movies. Yeah truthfully about that very like nobody's reached out and said anything you know there's been a few comments here in there. You know on some posts or whatever whatever the case may be and you know I get it it's not you know people have very intense feelings about that and I can and I can honor that.

1:38:32And as somebody who's spent the entire my entire career in film video television audio production. I can speak for a lot of us that are in the industry that say you know we're learning this technology and we're learning to utilize this technology and the fact the matter is the only way this album was going to happen for us if we wanted to put out there was utilizing you know this technology bar coming up with you know six figures to be able to you know go and do it. The way that we would have loved to have done it. But for me it was like this was a labor of love this was a passion project and I wanted to see what was you know what was possible so. And yeah people do have some you know some passionate feelings about it I can respect that I can I can honor that but yeah the because the lyrics we wrote the lyrics the lyrics are our story the lyrics.

1:39:35Our story the lyrics are human experience and that's what you know that's what that's what are resonating with people and from this point it goes on to be you know something real with with actual humans. I would love that but for the first step to do it this way is how I chose to do it and stand behind that and you know it's not a perfect. I'm not a perfect person but I'm I'm proud of what we put out. No that's perfectly reasonable I personally just because I live overseas there's no controversy with a I I don't have an issue with it and I think it's actually a unique and interesting idea because. If you go on YouTube there is a I like generated remixes of popular songs and they are exploding internationally and I think that's actually kind of cool because you unintentionally right have opened yourself up to kind of that genre that's on the Internet so I could I could see you getting views and from different countries.

1:40:44I really before and on a point my only other question is is like what are you comfortable saying what technology like what AI you use for this because it's a soon out to me sounds like soon out to me I we it was it was it was soon and it was interesting because when I started doing this I think it was like version five and then these other versions would come out and I would go back and reduce some songs. And then but of course you know I was talking earlier there was some of these songs that you know there were 2000 generations of a song to try to get it into the ballpark and then most of these songs were you know me splitting the stems and then you know splicing and dicing and and putting stuff together in my dog working with it. And then you know create the create the final master for it so it was very human intensive it would have yeah it would have been a lot easier to just have somebody in a studio go all right just you know sing this exactly this way.

1:41:46But I also wanted to really see what was possible with the technology wasn't just putting something out there for ex members of the church I just wanted to take the challenge ago what can be done with this what is possible for this but yeah so it was. So you know and then a lot of work in logic pro. Gotcha well I wanted to end on this unless we're going to keep chatting here which fun with me other way but there's a lot of people in the chat that I've been seeing asking about if this is going to be like real musicals with real people on a stage because you got it hashed out you got the lyrics down and you've got the tunes so in the future do you have any plans to. Yeah we do. Yeah we do. Yeah we we we we were we were chatting about that and and seeing what the response has been the the emotional response knowing that it's resonated with people and what we've heard from people yeah absolutely I have been thinking about ways now that we can put this on as you know as a live production whether it's either you know a dramatic you know or a narrative stage play or there's some type of a.

1:42:59You know a musical concert you know with comedy in a woven to that so yeah there's a lot of ideas that have been swimming around in my head now seeing how it's resonated with people and people asking about that. Yeah well there's three questions from radio free mormon so I can drop down or hang out with you guys either way doesn't matter but it's cool to me too. I like great questions and I appreciate appreciate that a lot the opportunity to talk about the words. Yeah I'll take you off Dave but we'll wrap up the show but seeing you, Dime and Dave. Good seeing you. You know you were saying R.F.M. that there's nothing on this that's not true and I just want to give an anecdotal. Thing I was listening to soft white underbelly and they the gentleman there interviewed a post Mormon therapist and he's not 10 minutes into his conversation where he's sharing old false data points about the tard feathering of Joseph Smith.

1:44:09Claiming that that whole thing happened because the Johnson brothers were trying to punish Smith for going after their sister. And you and I had done the episode where we tried to find where that data point had any truth to it and we couldn't. And so we asked the audience to stop you know stop spreading that that false idea. So it is a kudos to you John that in creating 20 songs. You're very accurate you described an emotional experience that a lot of people have had. You used stories in history that really do give people problems and they're not stories that can be easily dismissed or waved out of hand. And as you pointed out again for the few people who are seeing an issue with AI. This project would not have gotten done otherwise. It was the technology you needed to do this and I think it's I think it's so well done when I listen to these. I think the music is so beautifully sung. The lyrics are amazing and it really was an emotional experience for me to listen to it.

1:45:13So I just wanted to say thank you and thank you for being on today. Thank you guys for having me on. I appreciate it. You go through 11 months of creating something and you you know you kind of have envisioned you know after the fact. Who do I get to talk to about this? Who's going to want to talk about this? And to be here tonight has been a huge honor. It means a lot that you. We spent this time talking about it and I could talk about some of the behind the scenes stuff and everything that that went into it. So thank you very much. You're welcome. Does everybody know right now how to access your songs? Yep. They can all go to joseasmith.com. And all the streaming links are right there for you know Apple music and Spotify or just search. Joseph Smith presents. X more than the musicals soundtrack. So yeah, Joseph Smith.com.

1:46:13Yeah, you can find it. Joseph Smith.com or X more men soundtrack.com. It's right there. And if they love it, they want to support what we did. They can download the album directly from us or just stream it. And if I can really quick for anybody in the Utah area. I'm October 2nd and 3rd. I will be at Wise Guys Comedy Club in Ogden. And then in October 20th, I think it's 23rd and 24th. I will be I'm looking right here. I will be at Wise Guys Comedy Club in West Jordan. So people want to come out. It's not my standup comedy. I do a comedy stage hipnosis show now, but it is very funny. So if you are in the Utah area, you can get your tickets at WiseGuysComedy.com. Well, next time I'm going to have to ask you how you got into hipnosis. Oh yeah, I'll be happy to talk about that.

1:47:13And it was the hipnosis that played a little bit part of some of the ways that we shaped the album. And that's been a fun ride. Even though I can never do a show at BYU. Because in the church handbook, no hipnosis shows. But I will say this. I've done a ton of shows for more than audiences and they are the best audiences for hipnosis. Would you call your show a hipnosis show that's funny or a comedy show that involves hipnosis? I would just call it comedy hypnosis. That's, you know, I go up and I do a few minutes, you know, in the beginning, get people warmed up and let them know what to expect and how much fun they're going to have. And then the rest it just happens happens from there with the audience members. Yep. Yeah, tickets right there. John Moyer dot com slash tickets. And if the hypnosis is it real or is it a gag? It is 100% real. And I will tell you when I first started to study it, because when I left the church,

1:48:13I was in a really dark place and it was meditation and hypnosis that really assisted me to kind of get a grip on life and my mindset. And that changed everything and then it was from there because I was doing stand-up comedy and I was like an angry comic on stage. And then when all of a sudden I felt all this inner peace, I didn't have anything to rant about on stage anymore. But I had seen a hypnosis show and I thought, that's really interesting. I was been fascinated by the mind. I'm like, I could I could do that. I just have to learn how to hypnotize people. But I there was a time I never thought that in a million years, I could ever be hypnotized. And then having that experience, knowing what that feels like. And then having hypnotized, you know, probably thousands of people now. You know, it is a very real phenomena and it is fascinating to experience on stage. And this October 2nd and 3rd at Wise Guys in Ogden.

1:49:14Yep. And then 23rd and 24th of October at Wise Guys in West Jordan and Jordan landing. Very good. Sounds great if you're in the area, drop by and see what's happening. Yeah. Yeah. In the in the live chat, I did post that, but it did say 2025, but it does have the correct dates. And then I in the show notes. So folks, if you're watching this on YouTube right now, go down below to the YouTube description. I left both links for X more men the musical. And I also left the link for the your website, John, where people can get the tickets to those shows. So thank you for pointing out that I need my web guide. I just make a they copied something over and it's 2026. But yes, it is 2026. So thank you for that. No worries. No worries. I heard web guy. Yeah. I just want to say one more time. Thank you so much. Folks, we played four of the songs tonight. There are 20 songs in total. So there are 16 songs that if you have not listened to the album, you have not listened to yet. And they are just is interesting and insightful and funny as the four we played.

1:50:15But I just use those four because they could take us on a journey to have this conversation. So please go check that out. As you pointed out, John, it's on all of the sites. I checked it out on Spotify. But it's in lots of different places. And you can go to the links in the show description here to find that. So John again, thank you so much. Tell Richelle, we missed her and we'll just catch up with you later. And the rest of you folks next Wednesday at 6 p.m. We'll see you on mountain time on the next episode of Mormonism live. Bye bye. Good night.