ExeceMBA Podcast #433: PhD Program Spotlight | Professors Rob Phillips and Manel Baucells

0:00Welcome to a special edition of the Dardenitt Missions Podcast. I'm your host, Brad Twitty, and you are listening to a new episode. This episode is all about Dardenitt's PhD program. Recently caught up with two members of the Darden faculty, Rob Phillips, and the Nellball Cells, to talk more about Dardenitt's PhD program. How someone would figure out if they're interested in a PhD? What areas are accepting applications for the PhD program right now and so much more? I think you're really going to enjoy this episode. And as always, if this conversation is helpful for you, please like this episode and subscribe to this podcast so you never miss an update. And remember, you can always check that description for links to Dardenblog, social channels, and more. Now without further ado, here's my conversation with Rob Phillips and MennelBoss Cells. Rob Mennel, welcome to the podcast. Welcome. Hey, happy to be here. Thanks for hosting. Well, it's great to have you here, Mennel. How is everything? Very good. So, working on my swing, I guess.

1:06Other than that, this year is going to be pretty nice teaching wise. I'm going to be teaching the elective like three times around and then use up a build overload from the past. So it's going to be like nice. I appreciate that you're making time for your golf game. Is there an off season for your golf game? Do you take any time off? No, no, no, no. Yeah. I found for the record. When I lived in San Diego, I found that golf of all sports is the one that needs an off-season the most. Yeah. So I did have a 365 golf pattern for a few years. But I have to need to stand back from it. I found. But maybe that was just the version that I play, the very high handicap edition that I bring out to the course. Mennel, you mentioned your teaching elective three times. Is that behavioral decision making? Correct. Yes. So that's something that grows out of my research interest as well.

2:10And then I've been working like several teaching notes and cases that I use for that course. I'm always thinking about how to improve the course or being an elective. It's a bit light on the course workload. And then I'm trying to do more. And I'll break up rooms or in class activities, if you will, to make it more engaging. What's the basic idea with that class? What is it? What is the focus on? I know the title. Right. When we do research, we do models in particular in our area, our unit of studies, the individual. And then the ideas to understand what are the preferences of individuals. What is it that they try to, their goals?

3:13What is it that they try to maximize, if you will, that then the life of their behavior? And then many disciplines like finance or even traditional economics assumes that people do very consistent trade-offs. And that they are rational, which means a lot of things. It means that the way you present the same information doesn't matter. But alternatives that are available but that are not good will not change your preferences among the rest of alternative things. So that's another implication that they have unlimited ability to calculate the consequences of the decisions over long periods of time. And then turns out that pioneered by Kanem and Antaverski, they studied intuitive reasoning

4:16and intuitive decision-making. And then they showed that people are going far from this rational way of thinking. They have a very limited, or we have relatively limited reasoning capacity. We act a lot by intuition and instinct. But then also the main idea is that now we have some idea on how this intuitive thinking actually works. So then we can understand ourselves better. Like, oh, geez, I just made that decision without thinking too much. We can also improve our intuitions by learning from experience or by analyzing what we did. And so anyway, it's like an entire program of knowing oneself. And then even myself, when I teach the course, I, over the year, I become more and more intuitive.

5:21And then when I teach the course, I come back to being a bit more rational because it's not easy. It's not very easy to be like, there's a lot of mistakes like the reasoning capacity is very limited, basically. Well, thank you for sharing that, Rob. How are you doing? How's everything? Yeah, everything's grand. It's I think that we are well and truly into the grind now. It's always that sort of a late August, early September transition period. But yeah, I think it's safe to say I heard someone say they're coming up on some midterms for Q1. So yeah, I'd say that we are back at it. We have July weather, but October work. Is this still very steamy here in Washington, DC? I'm sure in Charlottesville. Well, what are you teaching this year?

6:24So I will be teaching in the PhD program. We have a required pedagogy seminar. And we don't have as much opportunity because it's all MBAs at Darden. We don't have the undergraduates to earn our stripes in the classroom in front of. And so the PhDs, we do the best we can to train them up. And of course, Darden has some of the best teaching faculty in the world, you know, by some estimates the best, but, but of course, I'm biased. So with that in mind, we are we're able to take advantage of this expertise here. So I'll be teaching a semester long pedagogy seminar. And then there'll be a PhD elective that also provide for our. This will be the last semester. So it's two years of course work. So four semesters. And this will be the fourth semester of the last group we took. So so we're starting to get them primed for for taking their comprehensive exams

7:26and then moving into writing a dissertation assuming all goes well. And then of course, you know, I teach business ethics. So I'll be teaching the the core ethics session for the MBAs pretty soon. And you know, always an adventure. I think it's safe to say. That's all. Both of you have very, very full plates. And I appreciate your take us time for the podcast. Just to give folks a little bit more background before we get into a conversation. We're going to have the day all about this for PhD program and opportunities for folks who might be interested in pursuing a PhD here at Darden. I want to talk just a little bit more about who you are and how you got to Darden. So Rob, can you come back to you? Tell us a little bit more about your background and what led you to Darden? Yeah, so I was the first graduate of the ethics PhD program back in 1997. And like my son likes to say back in the 1900s. And that was a pretty new program back then. And I liked it for that, right?

8:28You sort of have some initiative, having some sort of self-starterness, self-motivation about you. And it was right in my wheelhouse, the PhD program that was started at Darden at that time. So that was just a lovely coincidence that I was able to actually get into that program at that time. Did that finish that up? And since then I've been sort of out in the wilderness for about 30 years teaching it. It was at Georgetown for a little while. I moved out and did a West Coast swing out in San Diego for a bit. Made my way back to Richmond for quite some time. And just immediately before coming here I was in Toronto at York University. So sort of spreading what I learned at Darden far and wide and was invited to come back and join the faculty here. So it's quite an honor to be helping to organize the PhD program that I sort of self-organized if you will some decades back.

9:37Full circle moment, as to feel like that. And now I'll have a two tell us more about your background and what brought you to dark. Right. So I did an MBA a long time ago after completing my engineering mechanical engineering originally and I did an MBA. And I was always good at math. And then in a Southern the area of decision analysis in the business world was very attractive to me. That you can model a decision using probabilities and payoffs and utility of payoffs and taking expected values and folding back the decision tree. I know it. It had that engineering feel of it like you can calculate the optimal decision. So then I decided I wanted to teach business and decision I see so I did my PhD at UCLA. I took a lot of courses in economics math and also business as well.

10:40And I had the lack of having a chaply as advisor who later won the Nobel Prize for several contributions to game theory. So that was like quite an honor to and then also the other advisor was the Steve Liebman who works in several areas. But one of them is is search models like when you look for new formation. You learn and learn more, but at some moment you also have to commit and make a decision like when you look for a house like, okay, you can search and search, but eventually you have to commit and buy one of the houses. Right. So then when it's the right moment to stop searching for information or new alternatives and commit to the current one. I actually had dinner with the Steve Liebman. He's now 82. Like a few days ago. So it was nice because now with the pitch the problem that we have launched.

11:45Our very first student is working on search and learning. So it's working on like kind of a new generation of search models. That's a very exciting area of research. So I did my PhD at UCLA. Then I went back. I'm originally from Europe from Spain, Barcelona. I went back to Barcelona. I was there for like 10 years at the years of his school, then Pompeo Fabra. And then I that's when I met my wife. I moved to the US, work at the rank corporation in Santa Monica for a while. And then Dalin had an opening and I knew Dalin for a long time ago because there was Dana Kleinman who unfortunately passed away. He was a Dalin in the decision. So I noticed his department and then he came to Barcelona, invited him to come a couple of times and he invited me to come to Chamonville. We're talking like early 2000s, right. So then.

12:49And then it's funny like this connection. Then it's when when they didn't have that opening and I applied. Then the fact that I had met with Dana and I also was teaching the case method at the S and all that. So they and I already knew. Yeah, from conferences. That's that's funny. Yeah, there is now the new Dean, right. So then I remember meeting Yale for the first time in in the decision. I see conference. She was already very active like distributing the. The tickets. There was a like a reception and you had to get your ticket for the drinks. So then she was the one like distributing the tickets, making sure everybody went along. And so I remember like I was kind of surprised like she's really committed and really wanting to help and be of service, right. So anyway, so then I already knew Casey, I knew we are like Robert Carrelway.

13:50So for me, joining that and was just so like going going back home, if you will, right, a very familiar department. Not all business schools have dedicated decision analysis departments. Some of them they do the similar teaching, but maybe it's faculty and operations that do some teaching of. And decision modeling or or or their analysis. So here it's it's nice to have a dedicated department because then we can. Focus more on developing methods more than committing to a particular application. So I joined in 2015 and been here ever since. I appreciate both of you sharing your journeys to Darden, as mentioned the context for our conversation today is the PhD program currently accepting applications for PhD interest in the data analytics and decision sciences area.

14:51What's called dad. So what my now is referring to is like the data analytics or decision sciences department that that is that's manels area and then Rob representing the strategy ethics and entrepreneurship area also an area which we are accepting PhD applications. I want to talk a little bit about how someone even figures out if like a PhD might be something that they want to do. Rob, what would you share I'm sure people have asked you this right knowing that you have a PhD. How do you and it's on my figure out a PhD is the right right thing for them. It's a it's a it's a it's a good question and not least because it is a very different thing than applying to a graduate business school more generally and it's certainly a different thing than applying to just a university. So I don't think it's coincidental that that that that manel and I both sort of mentioned personal relationships that we had throughout this because in a way that you can you join a program you can come to Darden as an MBA and you're getting the sort of Darden enterprise level experience but but the thing I want to emphasize the very most is that the PhD is much more personal.

16:02So so so the first thing I would recommend anyone do who's considering it is go read some academic articles right go read some scholarly studies this just is the currency of the realm for for for a PhD program is the capacity to to appreciate new knowledge and then generate it once self and there are just a lot of people who are really good at learning the existing base of knowledge right they can absorb it they can synthesize it. They can synthesize it they can return it back to you it's just a slightly different skill set I'm maybe more than slightly different skill set to be effectively on one zone right the deadlines if you're not good at setting your own deadlines and being self motivated I recommend something else because that that's not what it's like to be a PhD student or even more so academic faculty. You do have to manage your own schedule to a much greater degree you're left with us so so if you are someone who appreciates you know having your own space being able to work more or less by yourself we have a very collegial environment at Darden that would be another thing to look out for is does it feel like you know that you will be out on an island for five or six years trying to get this PhD if that's a problem for you that would be the sort of thing to to take.

17:28Take a look at for whatever programs you're analyzing or considering but by far the most important I would say is make sure that you can even read an academic article without just falling asleep right fine you find someone who writes the way and does studies that you would like to do right and that's at a personal level even if you have a reputation as an institution I still recommend making it more granular looking at the individual. Visually individual faculty level and make and seeing if you can find people that that you would want to work with I would more than highly recommend if it's within your sort of you know geographic and financial means to go visit places you know if you want to apply to the Darden PhD program and you are able to get on a zoom with us or even better you know find your way on to grounds and walk around and talk to the people see because these are the people you're going to be working with much more.

18:28Individually and intimately then you're likely to with when you're applying to undergraduate or sort of more systematized larger institutional institutionally based program so so that would be a couple of things being to be unable to set your own schedule be your own boss without sort of either working yourself into an early grave or being a little too easy on yourself but also just you know being not only comfortable but in fact enthusiastic about the academic literature. In the field or the people asking the sort of questions you think you might want to ask and address. Manel what's certain advice for people in the same line like one thing that I remember when I study my PhD is that is the realization that that knowledge is something that's humanly created and that keeps increasing is like about the same thing. It's increasing is like a balloon that keeps expanding now with AI who knows what what happens to what will happen to this balloon whether it's going to be humanly made or not but as of now because I remember studying engineering all these results in analysis like the mid value theory or this or we're all think was developing the 1800s in France maybe and then for some reason I thought that that was it that's what that's math and that's already figure.

19:56And then you go to a PhD and then you see a seminar or new theorem oh this is new like somebody just prove a new result right and now when for instance if I look back 20 years when I did my PhD versus now there's so much more that we now know. No, some of it is is like very specialized but but in any area that that you look at knowledge maybe between one year and the next doesn't change much but if you look at the 20 years span it really it really increases in any human area so then the goal of a PhD basically is to be. One more mine expanding human knowledge that's the that's the basic definition right and then for that you need the curiosity so I think of three things right curiosity so you really have to be passionate about I want to know the answer to this question that is not yet known and that has to be something that gets you going like that will be.

21:10So cool to figure this out right so that will be the curiosity but then you also need the capacity because research is very competitive it's like the smartest people in the world or among the smartest people in the world they are doing research so let's be honest you have to be you don't have to be the smartest but you have to be in a very top percentile among the smartest people in order to. To be able to not reinvent the will to really invent something new right like so that in our area that's that goes with having a very. Like everything that's math like be very familiar with that language be able to model things have a have a sense of what's a good assumption what not a good assumption and then be able to to solve the equations set up the equations be able to study properties prove mathematical results or.

22:12Be able to handle data anyway the capacity side and then also there is an element of creativity like having a good sense of what is an interesting problem to work on what is an interesting problem question that that that can be realistically answered well that's another problem with research like when you explore something that's unknown you don't know whether it's going to you will be able to give an answer maybe. No answer right so there's always this risk element when you enter a new project so you need to have a good sense of well is there a realistic chance that some version of this model is going to work or the whole thing is going to so yeah so you have a half the center of what's an interesting problem that that can be reasonably solve that it's neither too difficult not to eat the. Usually that's why we have advisors so that they can put you in the right track or or maybe have you work on a problem they have been thinking for a while and that's already in the frontier of knowledge but then little by little you are supposed to be able to work independently and be the one creating or deciding which problem to work on right.

23:35Yes so so basically you need the curiosity then the capacity and then some element of good sense of creativity what's a good problem to work on. And it's a comprehensive list of attributes you got to be a self starter you got to be motivated curious yeah I need to see because I have three sees I have a I need the fourth C for for Roberts I this is like that you have to be self discipline and. The Sunday's there are no deadlines so if you just procrastinate procrastinate it's a disaster like nothing is going to get done right I need something that begins with see. So that night would come like four C's right so let's see by the end of the conversation we get this. I like that I like that i'm. Robert what would you want folks to know about Darden's PhD program obviously you were a student here you come back around you're helping to run the PhD program here. What would you want folks to know about Darden's PhD program yeah good so.

24:37There's a couple of things I suppose on the one hand I think that it's interesting to monelle highlighted you know that most places or many places at least don't have a dedicated department to the sorts of things that he likes to do it's similar with the dark and the department the area that I represent here is strategy ethics and entrepreneurship. And I would say that that's another sort of unusual combination for a department but but we do believe that that these are sort of of a piece right it is not sort of accidental or a miscellaneous file to put people into. We are we are committed to a belief that those three go very much together and this is just indicative of a broader sense of synthesis right we are relatively more open to the end of the conversation. More open to questions and solutions to those questions approaches to answering those questions that that may seem a little far afield for for some people some programs that sort of have have a more siloed belief set right and more siloed perspective.

25:49And then the other thing is that the program is relatively small so you know that that has you know anybody who's lived in a small town versus a big city will understand that that is you know that that is distinctive that that you will get somewhat less regimentation that's why I was emphasized is in the self motivation bit of it because you need to. You need to you know go find stuff in our program in ways that it's not going to be as lockstep you know programs to take 10 students a year well at any given point have 40 or 50 students in the program our program will you know maybe have half that many across the areas so so it's going to be a bit more I guess boutique would be one way to think about it. And this is again good if you are here for the community garden is also you know distinctive in that way Charlottesville is not New York or Philadelphia right so so it is a smaller community and there's just no you can't run from that but so so garden has always embraced it right that it is we sort of get to know each other at a deeper level than then perhaps some other programs.

27:01And so if you you know if you like the idea of sort of seeing a lot of the people you work with all the time then this is going to be good if you like the idea of never seen anybody and the anonymity that might come with being in a big city then then this might be sort of less less of a fit for you. Yeah that piece of that piece about community across all of our programs right you become the garden unless you really want to get to know people develop those relationships but now what else would you want folks to know about garden's PhD program anything stand out right. Well if in our areas even more boutique because we we basically have a capacity of a student and a half per year so basically three students every two years we currently have five students want to start in the fourth year then three in the second year and then one in the first year so we.

28:06We take one or two students per year and some years zero some years two some years to be right so in that sense it's it's it's a small but the flip side is is then we spend a lot of time and in in mentoring in working with we just do then so that's the advantage like for instance now with the Stephen. This summer basically working hand hand with him on a couple of papers back and forth so it's the it's a training that that very few schools can provide because there's a lot that goes into a good research output it's it's it's doing the math but then it's it's explaining the intuition it's organizing the exposition so that it's as less repetitive and unlogical as it can possibly be that it can appeal to a broader audience not just people who are super specialized on that on that area so there's a lot that goes into into the writing and the exposition right then even preparing for a presentation right you need like this feedback

29:32anyway there's a lot of personal training that we we do provide to hopefully prepare students for a successful career. I like this notion of a boutique PhD program that really appeals to me that sort of personal attention that sounds like what what a great time to have that kind of personal attention obviously you choose to be a choose to pursue a PhD you kind of chosen a particular path right you want to go into academia typically want to that sort of things that have you know someone to work so closely with your someone's to work so closely with these sounds sounds optimal sounds like a nice best set up. I would say that our business is small in the sense that only to areas in the school of read but I think that in business schools typical business school have seven eight areas right and then it's area will have all just a few piece the students even though that the entire population of pieces of the school might be large but if you look at area by area that it's always boutique type at least in business schools.

30:41So business schools have if you will disadvantage but they are also very competitive so it's hard to to be admitted to to be the program. Rob I was really interested that you mentioned earlier that you're seeing a teaching class about pedagogy what does that what does that look like I was curious about that. Yeah so again at dark I've never heard anyone say this there's always these sort of rumors but but maybe this exists where at some universities if you are too good at teaching you might get a finger wag because you're not spending enough time on your research right in the somehow this is a bad indicator at garden we've always taken teaching more seriously than most. And so one of the things this implies for us is that we don't just sort of throw our PhD students you know this is the way I don't know about Manaus experience but the way a lot of my colleagues learned the craft of teaching is sort of thrown in the deep end of the pool and you sink or you swim or you probably flail around more than more than either and for us we give you you know we give you we force you the opportunity to do that.

31:59And so I think that's a good opportunity to consider sort of what your idiom is going to be how you know what sort of teacher you want to be we are also distinctive at garden in our insistence on the case method there's a lot of universities have cases here and there but but garden is very focused on on case teaching and that has its own sort of craft elements to do it that you sort of have to learn and at some level practice as well. So that's the essence is that there's also for the record there is an entire sort of academic discipline around teaching at universities you know teaching generally but sort of university teaching does have an academic discipline to it and so we're able to avail ourselves of all the best expertise throughout time and around the world for some of the best practices best approaches best techniques when I did my own when I was here back in again. Back in the mid 90s I actually had a publication come out of my pedagogy seminar because I come up with this idea about how to use current events periodicals sort of in the business school classroom in order because some of the cases you know don't do get a bit long in the tooth as we say back home.

33:17And so allowing the students an opportunity to bring a case you know at least for the first 15 or so minutes of class that they want to talk about right and so and so this was an example of a gem clause in the instructor and I sort of co developed a new teaching module if you will a new technique and we're able to contribute to to that. So yeah just in general like I say is sort of tools techniques just give you an opportunity to reflect on the craft of teaching and if it's important enough to take an entire semester seminar we also feel like it's kind of signaling our priorities here at garden once we send you sort of out into the world as a as I hopefully fully flesh professor you will you will be able to sort of tape wherever you go to some of the some of the case method and student centered learning else. So of the garden approach. We talked earlier sort of mentioned of the comprehensive exam. Now what's the basic structure of a PhD program for folks just learning about this. How does it work.

34:26Right so I think that in for both departments the at least the big picture structure is the same so doing the one year admitted doing the first two years you're supposed to complete a certain number of credits basically four courses per semester on average. And during the first two years together with having some time for research assistant cheap or even starting your own research projects. So those are the first two years but aside from taking those courses like for instance in the very first summer there is a summer paper. So then the grades in the courses the summer paper all that just builds up like like record right of progress. You get a report after the first year so actually next week is when we're meeting our students to to give them feedback on on their summer papers.

35:32And then for instance this year we are setting up a formal presentation in January of their working progress that's going to be another milestone to assess progress. And then the big thing is going to be the comes at the end of the second year. This is to assess that they are. Knowledge wise or at the technical level the students are well prepared and that it's a moment where things might come to an end if if if there's not enough progress. And then starting on the third year and it's just a full on working on research research projects with faculty or independently. And and typically it used to be that that PSD's were four year long now it's almost a standard that it's five years.

36:32So then during the ideally the best way that a student composition himself or herself is having already publications or at least submitted articles by the moment that they go into the job market. So that means that the earlier one like if at the end of the third year one were able to already submit a paper to a journal that will be like a very good timeline. Yeah, so and then by the end of the fourth year one should already like be ready to go to the market in the in the fall of the fifth year hopefully get an offer and then. Make us proud. Right. Yeah, just to add one thing very quick I think one one way that we talk about it is as an apprenticeship model.

37:32Yes, so so when you think about you know that there's a in time for I've heard the sort of partnership track at consultancies law firms investment bank that sort of thing as as having a similar energy to them where you for two years you you learn sort of what we think you need to learn there's some discretion in there but but by and large it should all be in service of as we were saying a moment ago asking and answering one zone questions and so two years of course work and then typically two years two to three years as Manila saying of of just you you don't have any appointments you didn't make for a few years. And that's where the real self motivation test comes in right for for a lot of us tomorrow is a great day to do the work and you can tomorrow yourself into oblivion in this job I've seen it happen. But generally the progression is two years of course work and then and then how long does it take you to contribute something original to the marketplace of ideas is kind of kind of the the less fixed element of it I would say.

38:47Thank you for sharing that I never know when people come to these kind of podcasts what they know about a PhD program or you know how these things operate and asking for myself as much as anything. So I learned I learned something every time we have these conversations so someone sort of thinking about a next step OK listen to the podcast kind of interested Rob any any thoughts as to what a good next step would be for someone who's kind of curious about either opportunity with the strategy ethics entrepreneurship area or the dad's area data analytics decisions on the PhD. Yeah so it's sort of reiterating what I said a moment ago there is something called Google scholar and and that's just go over to Google scholar and type in a question that you think you are passionate about enough to run it all the way to ground for five years or for five to 35 years. And and then sort of see if anybody's even asking that question what sorts of tools and approaches different scholars use to address these questions and you know when it went down try to find some specific individuals like I said specific scholars not not sort of the Chicago School of thought although that has some value to it as sort of a as a brand name and decision criterion I would say I'm a no would know.

40:12But but find some you find a question and a way that that question has been asked and answered in the academic literature find out who was asking and entering in ways that that you are passionate about and then see where those people are working and then you know reach out that's the other day that's a good first test for this kind of job that's how I did it is a you know I reached out I just cold call the people. Who wrote and thought the way that I wanted to learn how to think and write and then I just imposed my city I'm knocking on their doors and say hey you know what's this all about and and I would recommend doing that you know reach a throw an email if you find a scholar to that you that you resonate with you know send them a cold call emails see see what kind of people they are see how long it takes them to react you know just little things like that and of course if you're interested in. And anything around strategy ethics entrepreneurship and decision analytics all right your boy.

41:20And now any sort of advice for people next steps well like depending on what they have like again to do a PhD just think do you have the curiosity the capacity the creativity and then do you have the self discipline of being able to to get things done even though they know that lines right I think that when it comes to research the one of the critical steps is projects selection like have a understanding what's what's a novel question that's not well it's easier not easy nowadays with AI it's a bit easier because you can run very fast literature reviews and and and get a good idea. What has been done or not maybe that that's going to be helpful for that particular step so identify novelty and then and then you need to make a dent right so then could either be.

42:23Could either be take an existing framework but make it work for a particular application like like I know in physics like when I instant got the equation. Those equations just if you don't solve them they don't give you much well they just give you an intuition of locally how things work but you don't get a like global picture right but then over the years some people solve the equations and then it came out with black holes or these or that right so this is a similar thing in in decision modeling like you have these models of people are motivated by these or that but but then you need to find a particular way to do it. To find a particular situation where those those goals or equations have a solution that then you can get inside right so that's a nice contribution which is. Be able to apply existing models make them work for particular applications and another way to be novel is to get a handle of a novel data set we don't.

43:31We're more on the framework modeling side but still if you can couple that with with data if you have a novel data set that always understanding what information is behind that data that's always a contribution. Another area is just develop new models or new frameworks so that's that's another area. What we like to do also is is is developed prescription like what are recommendations for for people to be more rational right in a way that it's easy to to implement if you will. Well there's so many areas where one can contribute so that's the that's place on the advantage of the researcher that there's there's like hundreds of thousands of open questions and areas you can work with but then finding the right. A combination of something that's novel it's interesting it's going to be insightful and then you have to.

44:37To to break new ground like you something that that people haven't figured out yet you go and you figure it out you just. Break the problem find the solution that's the part that can be hard like sometimes I remember with Sasha a colleague from the area. We started working on this problem of search and learning and at some moment we were trying to. To just prove a certain property of the of the search policy and we got stuck right and I remember there was a September where I didn't have any teaching or or anything and then I decided that I would spend the whole month trying to just prove that right like nothing else to do in the whole day. And and I remember it after a couple of weeks i managed to break the the problem right and find a particular way to solve that step in the proof. And Sasha was extremely close to getting it to so I was really it was kind of a race between me and Sasha.

45:41Some i'm really happy that. But. This is the type of thing that it's just two weeks dedicated to to just get some merging to a problem and and then see what are angles that you can work and all these math is all logical so in other words it's it's just a matter of finding the right order in which you apply a certain technique or a certain other technique. So just a matter of keeping in your mind and working on it working on it. For for a few days right and a lot of people. They they have more like a research assistant mentality like all give me the set and I apply existing methods by a player regression with this this controller that controls or this but I apply I just do research assistant work right. That's fine but to be a top researcher you you you need to yeah I can design experiments I can.

46:48Yeah this is all research but it's it's applying is to do things that other people have done but but the real thing of of breaking into new problem creating a new setup creating a very new framework this is the part that that it's. It's it's it's what's full elevator career like this ability to to to just not do very well done research assistant work and the fact that some people actually in that. Being relatively successful in academia just doing elevated research assistant work but but the goal is really to to have this element of creativity and breaking into new problems. You guys only have audio I believe but but you if you'd seen the smile they broke out over my face when I'm a nail said just spend all of September trying to crack this one sub component of a larger proof.

47:53One litmus test bread you're asking is a PhD right from me if you if that made you smile you're probably closer than if that made you shudder to think about that because that that's a decent description of the of the enterprise. I think I have learned over the course of this conversation that a PhD may not be read for me but I know that there are people that are resonating with this conversation I don't think I can get quite in the in the minutia that way but thank you all so much for providing this council and inside about the PhD program. I've been excited to learn more about it's it's you know it's a resurrection past few years it's relatively sort of news it's the restart but it's been great to welcome some students in and great to learn about the opportunities that are available here so I'm a no rob thank you so much for your time today. Appreciate the powerful. All right Brad thanks so much. Now is what conversation with Rob Phillips and Manel Boss sells to members of the faculty here at the Darden School of Business as always if you have any comments to join us in request anything like us to cover here on the podcast where all years we can reach to Darden that's the ARD in

49:03www.adu.nxt.stay safe be well and thanks for listening.