Here Comes the Hard Conversation

0:00Welcome to the One Right Church podcast where we will discuss what it's like to believe that you attend the only right church. My name is Mark Shaw and I spent the first 45 years of my life in the followers of Christ Church in Oregon City, believing I was in the One Right Church. Our hope is that by simply sharing our story that we would urge people to look to the Bible for answers instead of their religious traditions. We want to encourage people to trust in Jesus for their salvation and not in attending the One Right Church. Let's get started. Well it's good to be back and I want to welcome you to the One Right Church podcast. Here my name is Scott Revelin, I'm here with Mark Shaw and we are talking about the process of leaving the One Right Church. We've been talking about that this whole time and have never really been quite as clear about it as we are now.

1:00But if you're thinking about leaving, I'm hoping that the conversations that we're having in these few episodes are going to be helpful. Last time we addressed the prospect that yeah it's not going to be easy. We highlight four different areas that are particularly hard. One, the hardest is probably fear of the loss of friends and family. The fear of the loss of status and identity, the fear of the loss of a job and the fear of starting over. And so today we decided we'd take the hardest one. I think I said in the last episode we could do a whole episode on just this conversation. I think you may have said we can do several. So we're cutting a way back for everyone. But the reality is talking with your friends and family and in the fallout with friends and family is not just the hardest thing about leaving the One Right Church. It might be one of the hardest things about life as a whole.

2:03Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, they all happen different ways. But I know for us, my wife has described it as when we actually left, she describes that as the worst grief she's ever felt, combined with the greatest joy she's ever felt, because she was felt freedom to follow Jesus. At the same time, she was grieving the loss of some of the people who were the closest to her. So I thought that was a good description of it. But it's an intense grief. And you need the intense joy then, too. Yeah. And so one of the things that we'll say over and over probably is, Jesus is a good enough reason to do this. And there probably aren't very many other good enough reasons.

3:03No. Yeah, he is worth it, for sure. But yeah, we've talked about these conversations happening in a lot of different ways, but we just kind of want to give people maybe some ways to prepare for it. And talk about, just be honest about it, like why these are so hard? These are the people that you've loved your whole life. These are the closest people to you. A lot of times the only friends you've really ever known. And you come to this point and this decision can make it to where those relationships are completely broken. And not just, you know, it's uncomfortable now. It's complete separation in a lot of cases. I think it'd be fair to say that if you are leaving a church, that's not the one right church, it's just a good church.

4:05And you're going to go to a different good church, not the one right church. But it's just a matter of switching. It's going to affect your relationships, too. And it's going to affect your relationships without there being this intense family pressure. And I think that's the real distinguishing factor here. When you leave the one right church, there is such pressure, both on the person leaving and on the family and friends, that it's just almost unbearable. You know, you said that some people said that they'd rather their child die than leave the church. In other words, we're talking now about something that's worse than having a child die. It could very well be the worst day of your life. Absolutely. And their reason for that is because they believe that you are leaving God if you leave the one right church.

5:08And that's why they're saying they would rather you died because leaving now your salvation is lost. And your only chance is staying. So they would rather you died where your salvation was secure in the one right church than leave it and go on with your life. It's a hard thing to hear now. But that was so normal sounding to me my whole life. Sometimes I say things on here that are kind of embarrassing to say. But I heard that saying every time somebody left followers, somebody would say that I would rather my child died than had left. And it sounded so normal to me. And I just want to say that is not normal. And don't be hearing that statement and thinking that it's normal. So sometimes you said that these conversations come to you and sometimes you initiate them.

6:12Yeah. Is there a need? What's the chief difference would you say and how you need to your expectations, I guess, of that? Yeah, I mean, for me, I got some, my wife actually got some phone calls, I think. And I got a phone call when just when I was part of a group text, I was still at followers really didn't have any intentions of leaving at that time. But I was in a group text with a bunch of guys who were talking about scripture and then eventually sermon started being shared in that. Well, when word got out about that, then we started getting phone call. We started receiving calls and conversations were happening. And you're just responding to their questions then, you know, are you, are you reading the King James version of the Bible was a question I was asked by a family member? And why are you, why are you on this group text, you know, friends? And then my wife got phone calls from family members who were warning her that we needed to be careful with this kind of stuff.

7:18And so we were kind of just reacting then to those things. And those sounds somewhat like preliminary conversations. Yeah. Those are, there, there's no line in the sand at this point. Right. Okay. Right. So then when, so if we're talking about what it means to leave the one right church, you're probably, you probably have to prepare for preliminary conversations too. Yeah. Because those are going to come. And that really wasn't going to be the topic of our conversation. But just realize as you're describing that, that there are two levels. There's a preliminary conversations. And then there is the, okay, we have decided kind of conversation. Right. Right. And there's, again, like I said, we could do several episodes on it. But as you're doing, as you're taking these steps toward Jesus, as you're learning new things and wanting to understand more, you're stepping further away from the traditions of the one right church.

8:18These are things that you're not allowed to do. To listen to a sermon from someone else is out of the question. You cannot do that. And so you, you are going to, when you're doing those things, you're anticipating if somebody finds out, I'm going to have to have a conversation with somebody. So it's, it's just part of the process. And so, but for the sake of this episode, we want to talk about kind of that conversation that you have when you've decided you're going to leave. Now some people don't get that. Some people are reacting to a family meeting that is called and that ends up being like the last straw. I might as well, if this is how you all feel, then we are going to leave. That can happen. For us, it was different. Our son and his wife decided they were going to leave. And so we, we kind of proactively went around to our family because we didn't want to hear about it from, we didn't want them to hear about it from someone else.

9:20So we proactively went to my mom and Cindy's mom and our, you know, brothers and sisters and told them Andrew and Madison are leaving. They're, they've, they've, in fact, they went to a different church on Sunday. And we're not going to change our relationship with them. That, that was how we initiated these conversations. And we knew that that was going to be a conversation that could end up being our last. Okay. Let me ask you, or ask you this, is, would you recommend that, because really what you acknowledged in the way that you brought it up was, we understand the pressure you're feeling to have nothing to do with family members. And now we're stuck because we've got family members who are leaving and we've got family members who are staying. And so because there's pressure going both directions, does that help?

10:22Or is that just as a matter of fact, I don't know if it didn't help me. It didn't, didn't solve anything. Yeah, it's the between a rock and a hard place kind of thing. But, but it wasn't, it's hard to describe. It wasn't that we have some leaving and some staying. That, that's what initiates the conversation. But the important thing was, we're not changing our relationship with them because that would be wrong. That would be wrong. It would be wrong for us to do that. The Bible doesn't tell us we have to do that. We're following Jesus. We're not following our child who left. We're not following our child who's staying. We're following Jesus. And in doing that, it means that I have the freedom to not change my relationship with my son because he's going to a different church. And so I think a person needs to be at the point before you initiate a conversation like this. You, you do want to be prepared for it and you do want to, yeah, there's a lot of ways to prepare for this.

11:24So, in fact, let's just talk about that. Let's just talk about preparing. How would you prepare? Yeah. So, probably this is, it's worth asking it this way. If you had to do it again, how would you prepare? Pray. I would pray a lot more. That's, that's the first thing. And not just once. It would be a lot of, a lot of prayer around this. Praying for people's hearts to be soft, for people's ears to be open. There would be love all around. There would be love all around. Yeah. Yeah. I, I would go back and I would relieve myself of some of the pressure of feeling like I had to have all the answers. Like if you're going to leave this place, you have to have every answer from the Bible to tell you why you can do that. And I, I just want to relieve that pressure if I can. Just go into these conversations with love and, um, and understand that your starting point is not the same.

12:29For what you, for what is true? You're, because I experienced this in my life, my starting point for what made something true changed. It, it was my traditions at my church and it changed to being the Bible and, um, and Jesus being that truth. And so, you're arguing from a different place. So you shouldn't expect to be able to convince someone necessarily of what you believe because you're starting from a different place. And I think that's really important to understand it because it happens in other places too. Yeah. Um, if you, depending on what news channel you watch on cable news, yeah, you're not going to be, you're not going to have very successful conversations about current affairs or politics with people who watch a different channel. Exactly. And it isn't because you're not in the same country or have the same resident or whatever.

13:29It's because the, the sources of your information and your starting points are different. Yeah. And I think that, um, you know, there, there, there's a sense in which you have to acknowledge and be ready to acknowledge your starting point that it has changed. Like that's what you said. Yeah. And if you can, I think help them understand that they're coming from somewhere different than you're coming from. Yeah. The starting points are different and hopefully that will help them recognize that, you know, you're not crazy and they're not crazy. Yeah. This is just how it is. So I don't know if that helps. Yeah. No, it does. And the other thing is, um, just as you're saying that I was thinking that it's so hard when you've changed. Your starting point, like we talked about, it's so hard not to come across in this conversation like you know something that they don't or and you can come in and sound really condescending and arrogant.

14:31And I used to think that, but now I'm so much smarter or whatever. That is not the case. I'm just, but it can sound that way. It's very easy. It's very easy for that to happen. That's a good warning. Thank you. Um, the other thing is kind of think about what challenges you can expect to hear. And I was, I was a little bit caught off guard by one when, when we first had the conversation with my brother and law and his wife and we were telling them Andrew and Madison are leaving and we're not going to change our relationship. And his response was, well, let's get the family together and go convince Andrew to come back and not to. And I, it's so silly of me not to think that that would have happened, but it, I wasn't prepared for that. And I was sitting there just awkwardly until my sister and law said, I don't think that's what they want.

15:32Like she could, she could just tell from the tension in the room that that, that we're not over here to recruit you to come and talk Andrew into coming back to followers. But it would have been what you're saying is it would have been helpful for you to have anticipated that before and I should have anticipated. And, yeah, so I've not been in that situation, but I think I could anticipate that too, Mark. Yeah, yeah, I had other things on my mind or something. But the things that I was not surprised by was that they told me, I'm sorry, I can't open this Bible and show you why you should stay here. But they relied on, but everything we've been taught, we know this is the right place to be. This is the last place where we had a true called man of God. So that again, the emphasis was all on the traditions and the leadership at the church, even though that leader had been gone since before I was born.

16:32But it was still the anchor of what they're going off of. And then they're saying, they're defensive and they're feeling like you're saying, if you're going to leave, then you're saying we're wrong. And then they take it very personally, I've done it myself. I took it very personally when it happened. I've taken it very personally when people of the church. Yeah. And so they go back and then they start trying to, now that's not the right way to say it. You start feeling bad because they start saying, are you saying, what about my dad? What about my grandpa? What about my, they were all in the one right church. And now you're saying, you're leaving and they turn it into a lot of times it gets turned into. I keep saying they do that. These conversations are just so hard. These conversations a lot of times get turned into this judgment stuff.

17:32And I'm sitting there saying, no, I'm not making any judgment on anybody else in the one right church. I just don't want to be here anymore. We're just not changing our relationship with our son who left. It does, I'll just say, it does feel like you're judging. There's just no way that they won't feel judged. Again, that's one of the reasons you have to be prepared for that. I know people very close to me who have said, I don't want any more to do with your church. I felt judged. It would have helped if they had been more proactive. This is what we're saying. I know this is going to feel like we're judging you or your beliefs or any of that. I know it's going to feel that way. It's really not our intent. And at least acknowledge it, I guess, would be the thing I would say.

18:33Yeah, I think that's really important. That leads us to the next section of this. How do you have the conversation? How can you reframe the conversation? I've had conversations with so many people who have left, who have said, I wish I could go back now and have that conversation over again. I don't know exactly how I feel about that, but I would, I mean, it didn't end the way I wanted it to. So, yeah, I'd take another shot at it, I guess. There are movies where you can get this little loop and you can go back a day or go back a day or go back a day and go back a day. Maybe, you know, nothing different tries. Yeah, but I don't, but probably not really. And you really only do get one try at this conversation. That's the hard part. Yeah. So, when you are having this conversation, we can talk about that. I would try to encourage people to focus on talking about what you're for more than what you're against,

19:37or even instead of what you're against. If you go into this conversation just talking about what's wrong with the one right church and that's why you're leaving, I don't expect that conversation is going to go very well. You're just going to sound angry and bitter and I get it because there's so much pain involved in this conversation. It's hard to do it right. But I would say focus on what you're leaving to, not what you're leaving from. Would you say, would it be a corollary or the same kind of thing to say, focus on what is future rather than what is past? Is that not quite the same, but is that fair or not fair? Yeah, I mean, it's that idea, but it's just so hard to think about a future without your family. You know what I mean? That's still in your mind. You know going into this conversation that it's likely going to end in separation. You hope it's not.

20:37I don't know anybody that's went into this conversation saying, yeah, I know it's going to end in separation and I'm fine with that. That's not how it works, but... And that's not what we're saying. And that's not what we're saying. And then probably the most important thing when you're talking is try to focus the conversation on Jesus. Anytime you can point people to Jesus and say, this is what I'm leaving for. This is who I'm leaving for. I'm following Jesus. This is where it gets offensive again, right? I'm following Jesus. I don't believe I can do it here. You're immediately telling them you're not following Jesus. Like that's what they're hearing. They're true. Because you're saying, we've been side by side, shoulder to shoulder, our whole lives. Thinking maybe even that we're following Jesus. But now I want to follow Jesus and I can't do it here.

21:37That's going to be hard for anyone to hear who wants to stay there. It's just a really hard conversation to have. But I like what we talked about on here, about reframing the conversation and saying, I know how this works. I know what the rules are. I know that this likely could cause separation between us. But that's not what I want. I'm not leaving you. I'm leaving to follow Jesus and I don't want it to cause any problems in our relationship. But I think you could reframe the conversation that way. I mean, hopefully there's a number of different angles in which you could reframe it. Maybe. I think acknowledging the pressure is another one to say, I recognize that this conversation is packed with pressure.

22:40And I know it puts pressure on you. And I apologize for that. But the pressure is, I want you to know, the pressure is not coming from me. See, because I think that the whole thing that goes back to you're the one that's going to, you know, you're the one doing this. It's not coming from me. I'm just doing the simple thing that I think I need to do. And it's going to be your decision whether you give into the pressure or not. Yeah. Now that's a big reframe. Yeah. Maybe more than you can do in one conversation, but it's an attempt. Yeah, for sure. And then I think one of the benefits that comes from this is that when you have this conversation, then your actions really match your words. Because I was wanting to follow Jesus or attempting to follow Jesus for about three years before I left there. And we were getting conversations and people, you know, there were some of those things.

23:43But this is actually following through it. It turns that faith into action. You're following Jesus instead of saying I want to. I've brought it up on here a million times, but I was that guy that just, yes, Jesus, I want to follow you. But first, let me go bury my father. First, let me go do this. First, and yeah, I just want people to put, yeah, go ahead. This conversation is the acknowledgement that you really can't have it both ways. Yeah. Even though we all want it both ways. I mean, there's just nothing hidden about that. But this conversation is the acknowledgement that you can't have it both ways. And for some respect, in some respect, it's that it's acknowledgement that the family that you're talking to, your family, they can't have it both ways either. Yeah. And that's the hard part. I mean, your desire to not be part of the one right church is not a decision to leave their life.

24:44Those are two different things. They are. And if you can, when you say, re-friend the conversation, if you can make sure that you can articulate, these are two things, not one thing. And if you want to make them one thing that is, that is not on me, because they're going to try and put it on you. Right. You know, this decision is not really about you. And that's a pretty hard re-frame, but it is, I think, worth attempting. And I think you've got to recognize that going into the conversation that that's what you're doing, too. Yeah. You're not going in there to say, you know, to hell with you family, that nobody's saying that. No. No, and that is a hard lift when you're going into this conversation, even if you're being proactive about it, because you're dealing with, whether it's true or not, it's not true, but you're dealing with that shame and guilt that you're causing this problem.

25:48When that's not the truth, you're not causing. Yeah. It's, but, you know, all in all, I guess, to close out, basically, I just want to tell people, yes, this is going to be a hard conversation. Yes, prepare for it, pray about it, do everything you can, but don't wait. Don't put it off until you figure it out, because it's too hard to figure out. You're not going to figure it out. You're not going to figure it out. Yeah. And more importantly than that, it feels so good to put your faith into practice, to follow Jesus, and He is worth it, even if this conversation goes as bad as you thought it was going to go. But I mean, let me just, we've been talking a lot the last several episodes about the pressure. Yeah. And one of the things we haven't highlighted maybe enough is that there is, there is a lot of pressure.

26:49There's pressure in this conversation. There's pressure outside this conversation that makes this a hard conversation. But what we haven't highlighted adequately, perhaps, you just hinted at it, is that there is freedom on the other side. There is freedom from the pressure. There is freedom to love and be loved on the other side. And so, you know, pursuing Jesus and experiencing the freedom you have in Him is really what you were wanting to encourage people with, I think. Yeah. Yeah. Jesus has come to me all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. And that is so true with something like this, you're carrying this heavy burden, and the only place to find rest in that is Jesus. We would sing Him what a friend. I know we've used them a lot. We've used them all, I think. But what a friend we have in Jesus, all our sins and griefs to bear, what a privilege to carry everything to God in prayer.

27:50Oh, what peace we often forfeit, oh, what needless pain we bear, all because we do not carry everything to God in prayer. There is so much needless pain involved in this that we can trust Jesus with. We don't have to divide over not going to the same church. You know, the second verse is, have we trials and temptations? Is there trouble anywhere? We should never be discouraged, take it to the Lord in prayer. Can we find a friend so faithful who will all our sorrow share? Jesus knows our every weakness, take it to the Lord in prayer. And that's, yeah, you're going to feel all those things, you're going to feel burden, you're going to feel weakness, and the place to take that is to Jesus. Well, that was your first advice, your first encouragement, and I was pray about it, and that was your last encouragement to pray about it, I think that's a good place to leave it.

28:54Well, hopefully this has been helpful. If you have questions or comments or a topic that you would like us to cover, you can reach us at comments at 1RiteChurch.com. And for more information, you can visit our website, www.1RiteChurch.com. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you next time.