Ilhan Omar Raid & Public Execution

0:00Anyone can play a part. Complexity begins when every part has to work together. It's what our clients most complex legal matters demand. More moving parts require more cohesion. That's when we find our rhythm and where we do our best work. Give us complexity, white in case, the power of complexity. Returning advertising prior results to that guarantee a similar outcome. Some people treat Chachy PT like some kind of smart search engine. And some use it to get work done. Chachy PT work is a new way of working in Chachy PT that can take action across your apps and files, stay with a project for hours if needed, and turn a goal into finished work. It's designed to help you move from a chaotic starting point to a reviewable first version. So all the source materials, briefs, and scattered information that you have to grind through to turn into something useful can just become something useful.

1:01Put Chachy PT to work on your most ambitious ideas and projects. Get started at chachypt.com by selecting Work Mode, available on plus and pro plans. If you listen to financial news, you know a lot of time to spend thinking about what's next. The next opportunity, the next investment, the next move. But sometimes what matters most is being ready for what you never saw coming. For more than 75 years, Cincinnati Insurance has worked with independent agents to help protect businesses, homes, valuables, and more. Because planning for the future isn't only about knowing what's next. It's about making sure you're ready for what you can't predict. Let Cincinnati Insurance make your bad day better. Find an independent agent at CINFIN.com. This is Bloomberg Law with June Grasso from Bloomberg Radio. By doing it, maybe other people won't be doing what he did.

2:01So I'll make a decision ultimately. I know what the military would like to do, but we'll make a decision. President Donald Trump says he hasn't made a decision on defense secretary Pete Hegseth's plan to livestream the December 3rd execution of Nadal Hassan, the former U.S. Army physician who's been sentenced to death over the 2009 Fort Hood mass shooting that killed 13 people and wounded 32 others. The last public execution in our country took place almost 100 years ago in the 1930s. And Hassan's execution would be the first by the U.S. military since 1961. Vice President J.D. Van says he won't be watching. I hope that people don't forget that this is a guy who brutally murdered a lot of innocent people. Now that said, I mean, look, if it's all through livestream, I'm not going to be watching it. My guest is Richard Garnett, a professor at Notre Dame Law School and director of the school's program on church, state, and society.

3:08First, give us your reaction to this plan to livestream this execution by firing squad. Well, as you know, certainly there's a there's a long history of public executions. We can think back to high school when we were reading tale of two cities and the gleeful people knitting, watching people go to the guillotine. But that's something that we've moved away from pretty decisively in the last century or so. I think the international law consensus is against public executions. Every state that has the death penalty has pretty elaborate protocols that limit access to these procedures. I think there are good reasons for that. There are broadcasting rules that would limit the depiction of any execution over broadcast media. And I think there's a general sense. It's a sense that I would share that to make something like this a public spectacle is not only demeaning to the person being punished, but it's coarsening of the culture.

4:09It's not good for the viewers in my view. Now, some people would say and there's something to this that the modern regime of capital punishment has in a sense been dishonest. We've hidden it away and we've given it this kind of illusory coding of doctors and medicine and protocols and so on. And that tends to obscure what's actually happening, of course. But even with that said, I think the policy and the moral arguments against any proposal to televised or live stream the execution are by far the stronger ones. And if you want to add one more thing to the mix, it strikes me that it's just a very bad idea given the facts of this particular case to publicly depict this person's execution which would only have the effect I think of inflaming people around the world. You know, who might share his ideological hostility to America? So I see a lot of arguments against it and no good arguments for it. And then just because I'm a lawyer, let me add one more thing. I think it's probably illegal.

5:11Well, that's important. So explain why you think it's illegal, probably. Well, we have state governments. We have the federal government. And this is a special case because you know, it's coming out of the military context. Obviously, the military context is one that courts defer to a fair bit. I think it's really clear that state law and federal law do not permit live streaming. There's a question about whether the relevant military regulations permitted my understanding is that secretary Hegseth is of the view that because it's not explicitly prohibited, that means that it's permitted. But I think it's pretty clear in the regulations, which set out a very limited list of people who are going to be permitted to observe that that list is clearly intended to be exclusive. And it was intended to keep the proceedings private. So if this matter were to be litigated, again, there's often is going to be difference to the military. But I would expect courts to say that this isn't authorized.

6:13In another words, if this were in. So basically you couldn't live stream an execution in one of the states, but because it's the military, there's a different set of rules. Yeah, there's some regulations in place that are different from the ones that particular states that have the death penalty. So we're not going to be looking to Texas's protocols. We're going to be looking to the military ones. And like I said, secretary Hegseth has suggested that there might be a loophole available in those regulations, but I'm not convinced that that's correct. And you know, one could imagine from the president's perspective, and he is ultimately the one who gets to make the call about these things going forward. He might not want to add a wrinkle that could potentially delay this and draw it out in litigation. Hussein told a panel of military experts in 2010 that he wished he'd been killed during the attack. And he hasn't exhausted all his legal options. So one wonders if he'll even oppose this.

7:14He did say that, and it's possible that he wouldn't oppose it. But if he did want to oppose it, there would be avenues still available. Because this decision would create new issues that haven't been litigated yet. And even though it's the military context, I believe that there would be avenues available to us on. If he chose, if he doesn't choose, you might have some third parties trying to intervene. That's often pretty difficult to do. You know, third party standing is pretty rare. But the potential for delay, if the secretary were to really try to push forward with this idea, I think is pretty high. President Trump said on Saturday, there are two thoughts. Don't show it and show it because you know by showing it, maybe other people won't be doing what he did. So I'll make a decision ultimately. I know what the military would like to do, but I'll make a decision. I'm no expert on this, but I suspect that what a lot of our men and women in uniform would prefer is maybe different from what the secretary is talking about. Because again, if this were to go forward publicly, I could imagine it putting a lot of our service members at risk in various places.

8:17Under international law, the UN has said that this violates an international human rights treaty, the convention against torture. Yeah, that is the view. And of course, it's not the case that all countries observe that. I mean, we know that there are countries that carry out public executions. I suspect that the international law rule wouldn't be the one that would carry the day for the secretary, but if they ended up in the same place, that would probably be from my perspective a good thing. It's kind of odd that you have, you know, two high profile executions within such a short period of time in the news because you have that botched execution in Tennessee of Christophe Pike, who is back in prison. And she's recovered from from that botched execution. Yeah, now I don't know whether we know that she's recovered. I think we know that she's survived. You're right. This raises really interesting questions. You know, we have, there's a lot of constitutional law on this point, which might sound a little morbid, but it's still the law that a person cannot be executed unless they are in a condition where they can understand what's happening to them and its significance.

9:27So sometimes we use the term competent to be executed, which again, I realize has a strange ring to it. I don't know enough to know whether there might well be reasons to think that, you know, in this case, the damage that was done by virtue of the failed execution attempt would make it impermissible to go forward. Another issue is that, you know, the fact that this failed so badly might well provide the basis for a challenge to this method of execution in Tennessee. That is, you can imagine arguing that even though, you know, lethal injection has been a permissible method for a while now, that Tennessee has shown that it can't carry out that execution consistent with the Constitution's ban on cruel and unusual punishment. Now, my understanding is that at one point she requested execution by firing squad and that did not go forward. I suppose it's possible that Tennessee would permit that method this time rather than avoid trying yet again with the lethal injection, which they haven't been able to carry out.

10:28I mean, this is the second time this year that they had a botched execution, but it's also brought to light things that, you know, I didn't realize, which is the ways that states are obtaining these drugs. I mean, sometimes paying in cash because they can't get them and the people who are administering them are not necessarily, you know, trained to do what they're doing. Yeah, you're totally right. I mean, for a number of reasons, some of it is the pharmaceutical companies won't permit their products to be used. You know, the professional associations of various medical personnel won't permit their people to participate. So you do end up with weaknesses both in terms of the training of the people who are carrying it out and in terms of the kind of reliability of what's being used in these, you know, so-called cocktails that are put together to try to bring about the execution. And, you know, sometimes people will complain, well, this is the fault of the drug companies or the American Medical Association and what have you. But in a sense, that doesn't really matter. I mean, if you can't get the drugs, then a state has to come up with another method rather than using these cocktails that are unreliable and have the serious potential for causing excessive suffering.

11:37May I take it? The Supreme Court has never considered having someone basically executed twice. There have been executions where, you know, it sort of didn't work and the person's executed again later that has happened. I think the way to think about it is not so much like, is there a constitutional barrier to the state trying twice? I mean, you know, there were these traditions centuries ago where if you survived hanging, you might be set free because the thinking was that God had spoken, which might well be true. But in American law, I think the way to think about it is not so much as there's some kind of a prohibition on a second try, but rather does the failed first try tell us anything about the ability of the state to competently do the second try. And if we think the state can't competently do the second try, then it seems to me that you might well have a basis for saying, well, then this method can't be used constitutionally. And I believe her lawyers are trying to get the governor to commute her sentence to life in prison.

12:39That's completely available. That's always available to a governor. And again, you can imagine the governor in booking traditions again going back centuries of saying that someone who has been through this, you know, in a sense has suffered enough. The governor's not required to do that. The clemency is very much something that we've given to the discretion of the executive, but I suspect given all the media attention on this, there might well be, let me pressures the wrong word, but there might well be persuasion that's brought to bear on the governor to do that. And in the meantime, the governor has ordered a state investigation into the botched execution. Thanks so much, Rick. That's Professor Richard Garnett of Notre Dame Law School. I'm June Grasso and you're listening to Bloomberg. Anyone can play a part. Complexity begins when every part has to work together. It's what our clients most complex legal matters demand. More moving parts require more cohesion. That's when we find our rhythm and where we do our best work.

13:42Give us complexity, white in case, the power of complexity. Returning advertising prior results to not guarantee a similar outcome. Some people treat Chachypt like some kind of smart search engine and some use it to get work done. Chachypt work is a new way of working in Chachypt that can take action across your apps and files, stay with a project for hours if needed, and turn a goal into finished work. It's designed to help you move from a chaotic starting point to a reviewable first version. So all the source materials, briefs and scattered information that you have to grind through to turn into something useful can just become something useful. Put Chachypt to work on your most ambitious ideas and projects. Get started at chachypt.com by selecting work mode, available on plus and pro plans. Running a small business takes everything you've got, but with Chase for business, you're not alone. They bring together local support and a broad range of resources to more than 7 million customers.

14:43With a deep understanding of your day-to-day needs, they provide products and guidance built to help you thrive. Right now, earn $500 when you open a new Chase Business Complete Checking account for new business-checking customers with qualifying activities. Offer expires January 21st, 2027. Chase Business Complete Checking has the flexible tools you need to accept payments, make deposits, and manage your finances with confidence. Learn more at chachypt.com slash podcast biz offer. Chase, make more of what's yours. Fees may apply to Chase Business Complete Checking accounts. The $500 offer is available for new business-checking accounts with qualifying activities through 1-21-2027. Eligibility and qualification requirements must be met. Additional restrictions may apply. Please speak with a Business Banker for more information. JP Morgan Chase Bank NA, member of FDIC. Congresswoman Ilhan Omar is an outspoken critic of President Trump and has been the target of his attacks for years.

15:43Trump has even accused the Somalia-born Congresswoman of crimes. When you look at the Minnesota scam, a lot of it has to do with Somalia. Nobody is calling out anybody, but a lot of it has to do with Somalia and plenty of others. And I believe the governor is complicit. I believe Ilhan Omar is complicit. Trump is called her crooked and repeatedly suggested she should leave the U.S. But today there was a startling escalation in those attacks as federal agents searched her home in the final weeks of her reelection bid. The Congresswoman has repeatedly denied allegations of wrongdoing, calling them false and politically motivated. Jeremy's immigration law expert Leon Fresco, a partnered Holland night and the former head of the Office of Immigration Litigation during the Obama administration. So Leon, the DHS Secretary, cited an ongoing investigation last month that he suggested was examining potential fraud on her family's immigration paperwork.

16:54But this is a real escalation to execute a search warrant on her house just 22 days before the election. Yeah, there's certainly unconventional in many ways. First, you have the election issue, not the immigration issue, which is can you actually do something like this within 60 days of an election that used to be DOJ's longstanding, although non-binding practice, which was to avoid over investigative steps that could affect an election. Now, having said that, it wasn't that Ilhan Omar necessarily was in a competitive election and maybe they have some really compelling reason that they need to do this immediately. But that is certainly odd. Then the next question becomes, what are they looking for? Because if they're looking for claims related to the supposed sham marriage that she might have had with someone that may or may not have been her brother, that wouldn't actually affect her citizenship. Because that happened after she became a citizen, she became a citizen at 817. And if they're looking for instead of that information that her father lied on his citizenship application, which meant that he couldn't get citizenship and that he couldn't derivatively become a citizen as a result of her father's citizenship application.

18:12Well, the problem there is the father is dead now. And there's going to be massive constitutional litigation about whether the men's rea is there for a child who became a citizen when there's a deceased father and whether the A was there any men's rea that you can punish the daughter with, but also does it violate the DuPros' class because here's a person who didn't make any misrepresentation. And 30 years later, you're trying to denaturalize them. Will there be some constitutional limits about what you can do there to strip someone of citizenship once their parent is dead? And when the misrepresentation was only made by the parent and not them. So all of that will need to be tested. There are no precedents on any of that. So we will have to see, but I don't know if there's an actual crime. Any crime would seem to me to be something where it would probably be barred by the statute of limitations because all of these things happened far more than five years ago.

19:13And all of these crimes are longer than five years ago, unless they say she gave some false statement recently to somebody. But other than that, I don't know. So it will be very, very interesting to see once there's an actual piece of paper, what is the actual piece of paper say about what she actually did wrong. The search warrant lists of potential immigration crimes, including false statements and fraud and immigration paperwork, as well as a general conspiracy charge according to the New York Times. It seems like the potential immigration paperwork that they're talking about is the paperwork that her father submitted when she was 17. Right, and that's the question that's not litigated that we're going to need to figure out is if the father, one of the versions of the story of the father lied about his name and another is that the father lied about being a refugee. But in either case, the father is dead now and he's been dead for a long time and she became a citizen in 2000, 26 years ago at age 17.

20:17And so the question is going to be whether there are some constitutional constraints upon denaturalizing someone who didn't make any misrepresentations on their own, who didn't have any mens rea to make any misrepresentations. But you're still doing it on the basis of what their father did. And so all of that's going to be very interesting to litigate. And I think they will have to litigate it unless they have something completely different that we just don't know about. Leon, can you have an immigration crime without intent? I mean, the problem is on these naturalization forms you have to make a knowing fraudulent statement. And so they're going to have to say that the father did that and the father's dead. So they're going to have to have some very sound documentary proof about what the father's intent was because her intent is irrelevant. And she was just a derivative applicant, meaning she was writing on the coca elz of her father. And so I don't know if it's going to be that or are they going to have something completely different that we're just not aware about at this time.

21:23Have you ever seen someone's US citizenship taken away because of lies by another person? I've never seen it in a case where the actual primary person is dead. I've never seen a naturalization go after the derivative of the primary person as the main person that the denaturalization is going after. So in a passing case is where you want to denaturalize some very evil person and yes they have relatives that then unfortunately gets swept into the denaturalization so they have to leave too. But they're not the target of this. They're just the derivatives of this. But this is completely different because the applicant themselves is dead now. And so they're not the subject of the naturalization you'd be saying only a bill on Omar is the subject but you're trying to prove a case against her dead father. And that I've never seen before and there's going to be a lot of do law that's established there about whether there are any constitutional constraints preventing the government from doing this.

22:27Trump has been talking about going after her for so long. So can you raise in an immigration case case about immigration crimes that this is a targeted prosecution? Sure, you can always raise that in any context and ask for a dismissal and that's always at the discretion of the district court judge although the appellate court can say that the district court judge abused their discretion by finding that to be politically motivated charge. But at the end of the day what's really going to matter is I think if you were a judge and you were predisposed to grant a case like that it'd be easier to just say that the misrepresentation was not material whichever one that the father did in that situation. But I don't know in the end we're going to have to wait and see the paperwork and see what is the material misrepresentation that they claim existed at the time of the father's citizenship application because she wouldn't have made any representations of any kind because she was just writing along as a minor who was a derivative applicant on her father's citizenship.

23:32Are there allegations that she wasn't really 17 at the time? Well, that may be also and that's true then that's a whole different ball of wax but we're going to have to wait and see on that. So many unanswered questions. Congresswoman Ilhan Omar is an outspoken critic of President Trump and has been the target of his attacks for years. Trump has even accused the Somalia-born Congresswoman of crimes. When you look at the Minnesota scam, a lot of it has to do with Somalia. Nobody's calling out anybody but a lot of it has to do with Somalia and plenty of others. And I believe the governor is complicit. I believe Ilhan Omar is complicit. Trump is called her crooked and repeatedly suggested she should leave the U.S. But today there was a startling escalation in those attacks as federal agents searched her home in the final weeks of her re-election bid.

24:37The Congresswoman has repeatedly denied allegations of wrongdoing, calling them false and politically motivated. I've been talking to immigration law expert Leon Fresco of Haundin Night. So Leon, the DHS Secretary cited an ongoing investigation last month that he suggested was examining potential fraud on her family's immigration paperwork. But this is a real escalation to execute a search warrant on her house just 22 days before the election. Yeah, there's certainly unconventional in many ways. You have the election issue, not the immigration issue, which is can you actually do something like this within 60 days of an election that used to be DOJ's longstanding, although non-binding practice, which was to avoid over investigative steps that could affect an election. Now, having said that, it wasn't that Ilhan Omar necessarily was in a competitive election. And maybe they have some really compelling reason that they need to do this immediately.

25:41But that is certainly odd. Then the next question becomes, what are they looking for? Because if they're looking for claims related to the supposed sham marriage that she might have had with someone that may or may not have been her brother, that wouldn't actually affect her citizenship because that happened after she became a citizen. She became a citizen at 817. And if they're looking for instead of that information that her father lied on his citizenship application, which meant that he couldn't get citizenship and that she couldn't derivatively become a citizen as a result of her father's citizenship application. Well, the problem there is the father is dead now. And there's going to be massive constitutional litigation about whether the men's rea is there for a child who became a citizen when there's a deceased father and whether the A was there any men's rea that you can punish the daughter with, but also does it violate the due process clause because here's a person who didn't make any misrepresentation.

26:45And 30 years later, you're trying to denaturalize them. Will there be some constitutional limits about what you can do there to strip someone of citizenship once their parent is dead? And when the misrepresentation was only made by the parent and not them. So all of that will need to be tested. And so there's no precedent on any of that. So we will have to see, but I don't know if there's an actual crime. Any crime would seem to me to be something where it would probably be barred by the statute of limitations because all of these things happen far more than five years ago. And all of these crimes are longer than five years ago, unless they say she gave some fall statement recently to somebody. But other than that, I don't know. It will be very, very interesting to see once there's an actual piece of paper, what is the actual piece of paper say about what she actually did wrong? The search warrant lists of potential immigration crimes, including fall statements and fraud and immigration paperwork, as well as a general conspiracy charge according to the New York Times.

27:54It seems like the potential immigration paperwork that they're talking about is the paperwork that her father submitted when she was 17. Right. And that's the question that's not litigated that we're going to need to figure out is if the father, one of the versions of the story of the father lied about his name and another is that the father lied about being a refugee. But in either case, the father is dead now and he's been dead for a long time and she became a citizen in 2000, 26 years ago at age 17. And so the question is going to be whether there are some constitutional constraints upon denaturalizing someone who didn't make any misrepresentations on their own, who didn't have any mens rea to make any misrepresentations. But you're still doing it on the basis of what their father did. And so all of that's going to be very interesting to litigate. And I think they will have to litigate it unless they have something completely different that we just don't know about.

28:57Leon, can you have an immigration crime without intent? I mean, the problem is on these naturalization forms, you have to make a knowing fraudulent statement. And so they're going to have to say that the father did that and the father's dead. So they're going to have to have some very sound documentary proof about what the father's intent was because her intent is irrelevant. And she was just a derivative applicant, meaning she was writing on the coca elz of her father. And so I don't know if it's going to be that or are they going to have something completely different that we're just not aware about at this time. Have you ever seen someone's US citizenship taken away because of lies by another person? I've never seen it in a case where the actual primary person is dead. I've never seen a naturalization go after the derivative of the primary person as the main person that the denaturalization is going after. I have seen cases where you want to denaturalize some very evil person and yes, they have relatives that then unfortunately gets swept into the denaturalization so they have to leave through.

30:08But they're not the target of this. They're just the derivatives of this. But this is completely different because the applicant themselves is dead now. And so they're not the subject of the naturalization. You'd be saying, only Omar, Ilhan Omar is the subject but you're trying to prove a case against her dead father. And that I've never seen before and there's going to be a lot of do law that's established there about whether there are any constitutional constraints preventing the government from doing this. They've been deliberately going after her. Obviously, Trump has been talking about going after her for so long. So can you raise in an immigration case, a case about immigration crimes that this is a targeted prosecution? Sure. You can always raise that in any context and ask for a dismissal and that's always at the discretion of the district court judge, although the appellate court can say that the district court judge abused their discretion by finding that to be a political judge.

31:13And that to be a politically motivated charge. But at the end of the day, what's really going to matter is, I think if you were a judge and you were predisposed to grant a case like that, it'd be easier to just say that the misrepresentation was not material, whichever one that the father did in that situation. But I don't know in the end, we're going to have to wait and see the paperwork and see what is the material misrepresentation that they claim existed at the time of the father's citizenship application because she wouldn't have made any representations of any kind because she was just writing along as a minor who was a derivative applicant on her father's citizenship. Are there allegations that she wasn't really 17 at the time? Well, that may be also and that's true then that's a whole different ball of wax, but we're going to have to wait and see on that. So many unanswered questions. Some people treat Chachi Pt like some kind of smart search engine and some use it to get work done.

32:14Chachi Pt work is a new way of working in Chachi Pt that can take action across your apps and files, stay with a project for hours if needed and turn a goal into finished work. It's designed to help you move from a chaotic starting point to a reviewable first version. So all the source materials briefs and scattered information that you have to grind through to turn into something useful can just become something useful. Put Chachi Pt to work on your most ambitious ideas and projects. Get started at chachipt.com by selecting work mode available on plus and pro plans. Running a small business takes everything you've got, but with Chase for Business you're not alone. They bring together local support and a broad range of resources to more than 7 million customers. With a deep understanding of your day to day needs, they provide products and guidance built to help you thrive. Right now earn $500 when you open a new Chase Business Complete Checking account for new business checking customers with qualifying activities.

33:14Offer expires January 21st, 2027. Chase Business Complete Checking has the flexible tools you need to accept payments, make deposits and manage your finances with confidence. Learn more at chaste.com slash podcast biz offer. Chase, make more of what's yours. Fees may apply to Chase Business Complete Checking accounts. The $500 offer is available for new business checking accounts with qualifying activities through 1-21-2027. Eligibility and qualification requirements must be met. Additional restrictions may apply. Please speak with a business banker for more information. JPMorgan Chase Bank NA member FDIC. This is Alexis Christoffer's for Bloomberg Surveillance. AI is everywhere. Outcomes are not. Not because AI doesn't work, but because AI hasn't reached the workflows yet. The campaigns, the launches, the quarterly planning. Those workflows are still run by humans alone. AI is making individuals faster, but it's not making businesses more productive. That's the gap Asana is built to close. Asana is the operating system for human agent teams.

34:17Your easy button for AI productivity across every team. Ready to go AI teammates prebuilt for marketing, ops and IT. No prompt engineering, no setup. They show up where the work is happening already onboarded in your workflows ready to deliver. And the more they work with your team, the smarter they get. With Asana, your whole company can work on the same plan towards the same goal, whether you're a team of 10 or 10,000. Asana were humans and agents workflow together. Try it at asana.com. That's ASANA.com. Last Friday, an impassioned New York City mayor, Zora Mamdani, called for ICE to leave the city. After a man was shot seven times by ICE agents dressed in construction vests. While he was in his car with his five-year-old son in the back seat. We know that ICE is rotten to its core. Today's shooting is only further devastating confirmation of what we have long known.

35:17Which is that ICE operates with impunity. That they so chaos and terror across our country. That they have killed far more of our neighbors than they could ever have claimed to save. Once again, ICE claimed as it has on previous occasions that its officers felt in danger. And DHS Secretary Mark Wayne Mullin criticized the mayor. He said he wants to abolish ICE. Well, Mayor, if you abolish ICE, who's going to take criminals off the streets of your own town? Who's going to take the murderers and thieves and the gangbangers? The officers were wearing body cameras, but DHS has not released that video. The shooting was the latest violent encounter with ICE officers during President Trump's nationwide immigration crackdown. I've been talking to immigration law expert Leon Fresco of Holland and Knight. Leon Mamdani said the city is going to investigate the shooting. Reviewing the entire 24-hour period, including the ICE shooting, the police response, the protests, and ICE's use of a privately owned parking lot as a staging area.

36:27Can the city really investigate this without the information from ICE? Well, that's the problem is this is going to be really more of an administrative investigation, not a prosecutorial investigation. And so as you said, they're going to be looking at ICE's conduct in the operation, ICE's use of a privately owned parking lot as a staging area. By the way, just for some of your listeners who aren't familiar with this, this is a shooting that happened on Thursday, October 8th in New York City, where the Dominican National again in a car. A lot of these ICE incidents happen in cars where people are in a car and ICE tried to block the individuals so they could arrest the individual and unclear exactly, but the individual basically freaks out when they see that ICE is there. And it leads to ICE shooting into the car. And so there was a five-year-old child in the car. And the five-year-old was not injured, although there were about to were not known for a little while.

37:30And the adult was injured, the person who ICE was trying that for him. And so there's lots of questions about whether ICE needed to do that, was there a warrant, etc. And so this is the investigation that Mandani would be looking into is all of those areas. You know, should there be larger sanctuary laws in staging areas and in hospital access and in the New York Police Department and ICE contact. And so all of those things are being investigated. At the same time, the Bronx District Attorney has actually opened a criminal investigation into the agents, which the Attorney General of New York Letitia James says she supports it. And so the way that would work is let's say they get prosecuted under assault in the first or second degree or reckless endangerment or something like that. What would happen is the agent would then have the chance to remove the case, the federal court, and under the supremacy clause say, and we've seen this another time to talk to my ICE, that what they were performing was necessary and proper as part of their duty.

38:37And unless basically the prosecutors could show that this was out and about cold blood and murder, nothing is going to happen to the agent in that situation. We've talked so many times about ICE agents shooting into cars and almost all the deaths we see are because they're shooting into cars. And once again, they said that the officers feared for their safety because that's the only time that ICE or police or agents can fire into a car, they're supposed to step aside if they're not in danger. And they're obviously not doing that. If I wanted to stop these shootings by its officers, couldn't they just say no more arrests of people while they're in a car? Right, I mean, the problem is that it's exactly what we've talked about in the past, which is that there's an actuarial component to this. Not every arrest that's happening in a car is leading to a shooting, but it is certain to be the case that some number of people that you apprehend when they're in their car are going to take the prospect of being sent to Eritrea or Somali land or who knows where else.

39:49To such a nervous extent that they will not know what to do in their car and the ICE agent who are not trained police officers will also not know what to do. And so that's why you see this percentage, whether it let's say be 1% or even less than 1% of these interactions, it's still often enough that you see them on a weekly or monthly basis in the news because that's what's going to keep happening if they keep doing these apprehensions in cars. Now people may say, well, where else are you supposed to apprehend people? The house is also dangerous. The work site then creates a drama level for people in the work site. All of these points are true, which is that immigration enforcement is very messy and very difficult. There's no doubt about it. But it just seems that this car situation has a unique problem in that the person is literally inside the conveyance that allows them to become a fugitive. And so that's why you're going to see that in a much larger way than in any other type of apprehension.

40:50New York City Mayor Mamdani said there's no active warrant for this man's arrest. DHS has said he had an immigration detainer. What does that do for him? Here's the problem. Immigration detainer is nothing. What that means is that is a signal or a piece of paper that ICE sends to states and local prisons and jails where they say if you come into contact with Joe Smith, make sure that you detain them. But that's not a warrant. A warrant has to be issued by a judge and has to be on a piece of paper that says you're allowed to go and find this person, whether it's in their house or their car. And theoretically, you're not supposed to arrest people in their car unless the person is likely to escape before a warrant can be obtained. You need a warrant to do this. And so this is why there's this investigation about why ICE would have done this in this situation when they're done on the warrant. And apparently the officers were wearing body cams, but they haven't released the body cam footage and the DHS secretary said they'll do that probably after FBI and Homeland Security investigations conclude.

42:06I mean, that to me is suspicious if it shows what they say, why not release it? Right. The problem was let's do things. One, it's a very recent. So one or two months ago that the ICE agents have been fully mandated to wear these body cameras because that was something that Secretary Mullen really said, okay, we're going to do this. We're going to make everybody wear body cameras, but the point is obviously you're going to have the word the body cameras. Then the point of this is to use that to deescalate the situation. And so if you're saying we're not going to release something for a year, let's say, while the investigation is happening, then what you're really saying is that the body cameras not going to serve that purpose. We're only essentially going to serve the purpose of aiding in an investigation, but it's not going to serve the purpose of reducing public for ever about specific event that happened. That would only happen if you had a routine policy of saying, fight will release all body camera footage that we have within 24 hours or 48 hours.

43:10I do think it is critical that that body camera footage be released in a way where people can understand because obviously they're going to be different officers and they're going to be facing in different locations. And so however you release that video, it's not always objective. There's ways to release video that can tell one story or another. So you have to come up with protocols to release it in a way where it's as neutral as possible. But other than that, I agree that if you're not releasing it, it doesn't serve the purpose that you're hoping it would serve. So now let's turn to the denaturalization efforts by the Justice Department. This month, it announced what it called the largest denaturalization effort in modern history. So this is where the Justice Department is trying to revoke the citizenship of people who came here from abroad, but became US citizens. So they've announced that they've filed denaturalization petitions against 40 individuals for a range of offenses.

44:14More than half the cases involved immigration or identity fraud, several others involved sexual offenses. So how long does this denaturalization process take? Well, it depends if you mean how long does it take to make a case or how long does one case take one file to actually come to fruition. So to investigate one of these cases requires about six month of time where you have cooperation between the Department of Homeland Security and the Department of Justice to go through the paper work to try to determine whether a specific representation was affirmatively false. And was material to the decision in that process. Once that's done, the Department of Justice has to draft a complaint. They have to find a local council in whichever local federal court is there and then get them to team up to file the denaturalization. So all of that takes time and then once you file the case, then it takes about a year to go from beginning to end by the time you file the complaint, you have the foreign national can file an answer, then you do motions, you have a trial if the foreign national wants to contest it.

45:31And so all of that takes time and sometimes the Department of Justice even will send the letter to the foreign national site. Do you really want to do all of this or are you willing to just give up your citizenship and sometimes they even come up with settlement where they will strip the person of citizenship, but they will if you consent to this, we won't actually deport you. And so there's all kinds of discussions there, but the 40 that they announced aren't 40 at one time and they're not linked together. They're just happened to be 40 cases that got filed between August 10th and October 2nd, but that's still a lot larger than in an average year. You might have had 25 people who are denaturalized the entire year and hear you have 40 in less than two months. A great conversation as always Leon, thanks so much. That's Leon, Fresco, of Holland and Knight. And that's it for this edition of the Bloomberg Law Show. Remember you can always get the latest legal news on our Bloomberg Law podcast. You can find them on Apple podcasts, Spotify, and at www.bloomberg.com slash podcast slash law.

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