In Conversation: SYLVAN ESSO

0:00Jokerman podcast is brought to you by Distro Kid and their new Direct to Fan tool, allowing any artist to sell merch, Distro Kid Direct allows artists to create a merch store in minutes, without any up-run costs, or any technical skills, or know-how. They'll take care of all the logistics and the nitty-gritty, and as with distribution, through Distro Kid, they never take a cut of the proceeds, you, the artist, keep 100% of your earnings. Once again, that's Distro Kid Direct. Open a store today at distro-kid.com-slash-direct. Welcome back to Jokerman in conversation. I'm Ian. Hope everyone's been digging. I'm gonna kick off to the Leonard Cohen series. We've been knee-deep in the books from the early days of the man's career. We'll be getting to the records soon, so stay tuned on that. But we got another interview coming through this week. Amelia Meef, Nick Sandborn, aka

1:06Sylvan Essow, who just released their latest record, Al Infinity. Last week, over the last decade, Amelia and Nick have established a reputation as genre benders, a little bit pop, a little bit electronic, a little bit dance, a little bit folk, a little bit all of the above. The new one, I'm glad to report. From our vantage point, at least the most rock-and-silvaness-o-record yet. Guitar's feature prominently, some fantastic percussion work from a wide cast of collaborators, and a couple stretches on the record that are just banger after banger. You know what we say around here. We love rock songs, and clearly on Al Infinity, Amelia and Nick do too. We've also, for the last year, been totally absent from the cursid streaming service known as Spotify, an admirable move that, well, you know, we talk about it a little bit. The pros and

2:10cons of putting your money where your mouth is, so to speak. Great record. Very thoughtful conversation about making it, the state of the music business at large, and being good at paying to quote one of the songs on the new record. Here are Amelia and Nick. Oh yeah, كل doesn't wait into you. Oh yeah, and she'll tell the marches taking us and it will take and cold cold night the baby's like her the last beat of the song. Amelia, Nick, Sanborn, welcome to Joker Man. Thanks for joining us. Thanks so much for having us. Yeah, thank you. Pleasure is all mine. Can we dispense with just a little bit

3:12of technical business upfront? Is the way we pronounce this record is it OWL infinity? Am I doing that correctly? Yes. You did a rough. That is true. All right. That's one of those titles where you look at it on the screen, on the press release, from the bandcamp page or whatever, and it's like, all right, I see it. And there's a visual element to it. But also, I need to talk about it here on a podcast. And it's not something that leaps to mind immediately. So I'm glad that I've passed the first test there. You have passed the first test. What, what, when you saw it, what would the other ways that you would say it be? Did your brain say something different? Well, I mean, I guess I just, the, the, I didn't know if it was like, OW infinity or like, O infinity or like, infinity thing. And like that really through it, maybe that was like, you know, just a stand-in thing, but you sound it out, OW infinity.

4:15What does that title, where did that come from? I'm fascinated. OW infinity is kind of like one hopes with the title for a record. It is sort of the summation of every song that's on the record. And all of these songs, the way that I'm thinking about it right now, which is changing all the time. The way that I'm thinking about it right now is that it is a general commitment to living, which means I am here to dedicate myself to being hurt over and over again, in order to enjoy the fruits of existence. Yeah, kind of that there's no other way. So it is when, like the, I was wondering about that because like, you know, OW, that's like, that's what you say when you get hurt. And I was like, is it, is it really just like OW? Like someone punched me in the arm, but like, yeah, it really are like referring to physical and presumably spiritual, mental, emotional,

5:18Japan. Yes. Just a good old fashioned OW. Yeah, OW. Like a comic book, you know, like a, you know, you know, boom, bam type thing. I think that's what I like about it so much is that it's kind of what a kid would say. Right. You know, it's like, yeah, it's not, it's inherently base. Sure. And it kind of fits in with some of the like, the like graphical design elements and language that is going along with this record. I don't know if you guys did the drawing of yourselves as like, they're not like anime, really, but they're like cartoon versions of you guys with like a hammer and like a sword. It like, it's, it, it, the title fits with the way this is being put across and presented, I guess. We're so excited about the artwork. We did not do it. Yeah, our friend Eric Timothy Carlson did the drawings. They're very tied. Thank you. We do love them. We do love them. Yeah, it was kind of a surprise. I think when he started showing that kind of world of the art to us, I did not see that coming at all.

6:21Yeah. And the moment he kind of started leaning into it, it was one of those things where it's like, of course, this makes this fits so perfectly, but it was just completely unexpected for whatever reason. Well, so it wasn't like you guys were like, make us cool cartoon characters with weapons. Yeah. It was just like, this is what he was thinking and he brought it to you and you were like, this makes perfect sense. Yeah, he and I are really into very, like, we're in medieval imagery and like, silliness in general. And so like, I had a feeling he was going to lean more in the cartoony world of things, particularly like, when he arrived at our studio, he just sort of started making notes through little drawings. So I was kind of expecting something like this, but the way that it has been fleshed out and the depth to the world is so much more than it was expecting. Amazing.

7:21I think it's an integral part of the experience of and do they show up like in the liner notes, like in the record, like on the back of the record or something? Oh, yeah. Yeah, they're all, yeah, especially the gatefold. Like there's a couple, like a CD and then the Deluxe version of the record has like a huge expanse of them. Very sick. Well, on the note of the record, and if any, we're here, we're talking as the three of us are speaking here today, it's the day before the record officially comes out. By the time this episode posts, the record will have just come out. I think we're gonna have this up next week. It is an auspicious day for the release of this album, which you may or may not be aware of. September the 11th. How would we not be aware? auspicious to say. I guess walk me through the decision making that brought us to the point of release. Was it just like this was the right time

8:22and it made sense or were there any conversations about the connotations that come along with such a day? Yeah, I mean, it was, it's literally just where on the calendar. The Friday fall. It was the right day. Like, we were like, okay, we have this here, then when I need two weeks for that, I'm in six weeks and the, get any time you set up record, you kind of set out this like timeline of events, right? And it just so happened that that was the day. That was the day. Like it fell on and we had this moment where like, should we move it? And then it kind of just felt weird to move it. Like moving it, like that started feeling like a strange thing to do. And so we didn't, I don't know, you know? Yeah, I know we didn't. And arguably like, I don't know, as someone who was, let's see, I was in sixth grade, sixth grade. That's great. Sure. Arguably that day is the thing that set us on the political path that we find ourselves in and on

9:24in this moment. Yeah. And so yeah, it felt, I mean, no disrespect by putting our record out on that day, but also like it really fits with many of the themes that are in it. The automatically appropriate. Yeah. Yeah, certainly. That makes, that makes sense. I, for the record, love that the record is coming out on 9-11. I know. It's because you would never forget. That's right. That's right. This is great. No, but I don't know if you guys are, how deep you go with Bob Dylan, but one of my very favorite Bob Dylan albums, Love and The Thafts, came out on, like actually on September 11, 2001, like the day, which is on release day. It was, because the blueprint came out that day also. Blue print. There was a nickel-back record that came out, I think. Nickel-back, the strokes is this it. I will literally work on a record stroke. Jimmy, we're all blue in America.

10:25Yeah. Yeah, blue in America, which then had to change the title up to something. The title of New York City Cops on the Stroke Shracker, they had to recall all of those. That's right. It came out in England with New York City Cops on it, but when it came out in the States, they had wiped out one of the great injustice. We, at the record store, we all kept our CDs of that. Not even thinking about it being a collector's item, or being like, I want the extra song. Like that was literally. Yeah, to the New York City Cops. You guys already said them. Yeah. Well, where, so it sounds, I can't help but follow this path of conversation just a little bit further. Do you guys remember where you were on, like, I mean, you said you were in sixth grade? Of course. Yeah, it was in middle school. Yeah, I grew up in Cambridge, Massachusetts. I was going to a school specifically for dyslexic children in Lincoln, Massachusetts. My sister was living at the Austrian Cultural Forum

11:27at the time, which meant that she was like downtown in Manhattan. So I, so you know, I ran out of class and dialed her cell phone number, made sure that she was okay. And she was presumably? Absolutely. She was okay. I was a freshman in college. Holy shit. Yeah. Yes. Yes, in the olden times. Wow. Yes. There's gray in my beard. Yeah, I was a freshman in college at UW-Mawaki. And for me, my whole morning, like I remember coming down to the cafeteria and nobody being in the cafeteria and everybody had a round at like a mounted television. But the bigger thing was just my personal experience of this was that the Boston to LA route,

12:28that plane, one of the planes that hit the towers, that route on United, my aunt, my mom's sister, Carla, was a flight attendant for United that was her route. Jesus. And so because I'm out of your callers, but you couldn't get anybody on a cell phone. It was like, it was also kind of like, it's kind of early cell phone days, like not everybody had a cell phone. And I remember sitting in my dorm room on the house landline trying to get a hold, like me and my parents trying to get a hold of my aunt. Your aunt? Because to make sure, and she was fine. It was like her day off. It was like, she ran that route like four times a week and it was in one of the days she was not doing it. It was crazy. Insane. So just literally could have been roll of the dice if it was like a Wednesday instead of a Tuesday, like she could have been on that plane. Yeah. Oh, hello. Seems like it's kind of glitching out here. Hey, you guys with me? Yeah, give me one, one second there. Sure. I'm on a VPN. I just want to. I'm connecting from a VPN.

13:29That's a good idea. You got to keep the, keep the feds off you. You know, I just don't think they need to be on me. I guess what I'm saying. Who wants a fed on it? You might say it's a violation of reconstitutional rights. Agreed. Like literally a whole part of the bill of rights against the exact thing that's happening. I mean, look at this. This is all other podcasts. No, you're, we're, this is just we're right, we're right onto the next subject. Speaking 9-11, the Patriot Act. Come on. This is good stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, well, that's enough of a walk down memory lane. Yeah, it's funny. Actually, you mentioned that I can't help it. Just spur in a totally different direction. But you mentioned UW Milwaukee. I mentioned to, I'm buddies with Stephen Heiden. Oh, yeah. And he, I mentioned that I was, you know, I'm going to be talking to you guys recently. He was like, oh, yeah, I knew Nick at the Houston Tendbarth, the cactus club, I think is what, is that, am I, is that correct? Yeah, that's right. We're, okay, well, Steve says hi. We left Steve.

14:30Small world, you know. Very, he's such a great writer. Yes, he's my home. Okay, well, the record itself, once again, how infinity, I wonder, I feel like the beginning of this record, entertainment and Coca-Cola, is like, one of my favorite songs on the album, even as it's one of the shortest and maybe simplest, and that it sort of strikes me something you guys have done in the past. In some occasions, at least I'm thinking of like sound at the beginning of what now. These, like, kind of, they're not like full songs, they're kind of like scene setting devices, or almost like a thematic intro. I wonder, is that something intentional you guys do with records? Does this feel in line with that practice, or was it just like, this was the right way to start the album? We actually fought for a long time, or we wrestled with ourselves to figure out how to start this record. Yeah, we thought it was going to be a different song for a long time. Yeah, originally we were going to start it with back again.

15:32Yeah, we'll be rowing with that, that felt like. In the middle of the record right now. Interesting. Yeah, right now. It's in the middle of the record. We've created that now. That's how it is. Yeah. That's where it is. The die has been cast. Yeah. I think we've always tended to be able to write really potent little tiny songs that usually need to be in the beginning of something. With this one, I feel like there are actually three. There's like entertainment and Coca-Cola and then ribbon. Sure. And then plastic sword at the end. Which are the three strange tent posts of our infinity. And with entertainment and Coca-Cola, it was a struggle to even make it become a song. I wrote the lyric and the melody all in one go. But it was kind of a country song. Sometimes when I'm writing, I'll write specifically from a character, which usually means that there's a voice

16:33that isn't necessarily my natural singing voice that I write it in. And Nick just doesn't really like that. I don't like it. Why not? Because it doesn't feel like her. It feels like I think it's when I get it. But I think the things that I'm most drawn to are like ribbon. Which when she first wrote that, I was like, this is the most purely amelia thing that has ever existed. This is like, no one else could write this song. This is just absolute pure in the moment, honesty. I think that is the stuff I'm the most drawn to. Or that when I hear it, I immediately know what to do. Like I know what my job is. Sure. And I think that it takes me a little while longer to find a way in to something where it's maybe an aspect of her or like a, of her through all lens.

17:34I think it just takes me longer. Right? I don't immediately, I tend to not immediately respond to it. Which I get. I do get that like it's also like entertainment and Coca-Cola is such like a bold kind of swing at something. I'm just saying like hold on, I'm just taking a moment because I'm embarrassed about saying that about my own song. No, please take a turn. Yeah. A little bit of confidence is good for the body, you know? Yeah, I know, man. Hold on. I think like, yeah, because it's so strident in its themes, it can be like a kind of a heady brew of a vibe. Like I'm talking, it's essentially like a list song. Yeah. And juxtaposing like excess. Yeah. That's true.

18:35Well, that was the thing. I think when we started this sequence the record, it originally, we weren't thinking about it as the lead at all. But we found that, I mean, if you imagine this song in a different order, there's a lot of ways it doesn't work, you know? Because it's kind of a diverse set of songs, right? And so we were really struggling with how to sequence it in a way that felt like it showed somebody the record in the way that we heard it. You know, it's like one complete thing. And we've all kind of independently, I mean, the two of us and also like some people on the team that we worked with, we've realized that a lot of us, when we would play it for people, we would start with entertainment and Coca-Cola. Just because it was such a like, what is this? Like it feels like it's so, it removes you from whatever context you're in in the rest of your life and places you in the scene of the album, the world. And so in that way, I think it really does that thing. And but it's weird because we're like trying to not do that.

19:35We're trying to have like a song song at the beginning. Yeah. When you said, I mean, you said it started as like a country, type, like how did it, because it doesn't really, to me, it sounds much like a country song, you know, the way that it exists on the right, like how did it, how did it transmute? Oh, let's see, how did we transmute it? Well, you brought it to Buddy Ross. I brought it to Buddy Ross, yeah. If you, like, but if you think about, here's the weird thing about writing lyrics and melody independent from music and chords. Like in my brain, it was a country song. Sure. I live in a house. And we're like, we're in a jar back home. You know, sure. So you're not necessarily sitting there like with a cowboy hat on, like strumming the acoustic guitar with like a petal steel in the background, something. No, but it's got the swagger in it a little bit. Yeah. And then, and then we realized that once I brought it to Buddy, he was immediately able to like find some really beautiful

20:36chords under it, which he immediately decided were the wrong chords. But luckily, I grabbed a voice memo of what his first thought was. And then I took that back. And then we recreated it. We created it. Yeah, the voicing was, it's a, I love what he wrote. I love it. Me too. I just love that voice thing. And I wouldn't, but that's like, I think like, I couldn't hear that when she sang it for me the first time. And the minute he found that descending framework, it unlocked the whole recipe. It was like, oh, of course, this makes complete sense. It just like, it suddenly felt very much like a melee, rather than a refracted version. Makes sense? And I feel like songs like these are commitments to the record as such. They're not the type of songs that you would necessarily expect to pop up on algorithm playlist that's

21:37going on in the background of a third wave coffee shop or something. But they make perfect sense and really complete the, like, flesh the picture out when you hear them in the context of the collection of all of the songs. And I feel like, as we transition further and further away from the album, the LP, as like a medium as an object of distribution of music, I don't know, I feel like we lose things. And other artists might be more inclined to strip away music like that or void, you know, kind of fully pursuing things like that because it doesn't make as much sense, like, and financially or for the demands placed upon them in the industry of, you know, popular music. Totally. But I also think like we have always been an album band. Yeah. And I'm not saying that because, like, I think that, like, artistic, the guy love albums. But like, I think that, like, when we put our first record out, like, that was a record that people listen to in its entirety,

22:37you know, I think, like, people who like our band tend to listen to all of the record, well, whichever record it is, you know what I mean? And so, which I feel very grateful for, it's like, it puts us in a lucky position as a band to be able to, like, take more chances and lean more into stuff that doesn't sit on its own as neatly, you know? I think it allows for more nuance and more depth to the catalog, you know? Certainly. Um, on the note of, you know, country, or, you know, coming from a, I don't know, a country song with the mind, so to speak with entertainment and Coca-Cola, I feel like this record's got a little bit more, like, a rock, just like, like, rock band type sound to it. Certainly, you know, judging by some of the, um, cast or creators that you guys were, excuse me, collaborators that you worked with, uh, and some of the story behind some of the songs. I also got, like, and maybe this has always been there, but like, like, a little bit of portus head

23:38and here and there, like a tripoppy, like a boom-bap type thing. What were you guys, like, listening to or thinking about in terms of other reference points going in? Basically, we knew that what we wanted was to, like, harvest a bunch of different sounds and then make, like, we wanted to, like, go to LA, go to New York, go to our friends' other studios, collect a bunch of sounds and then bring them back to Betty's R studio and create the music from there. Mm-hmm. And that, like, really, we also, like, we're listening to, like, a lot of 90s radio, like, the age of when, like, weird shit was on the radio and could transcend. Yeah, like, big breakbeat, like, a lot of, like, turn-of-the-millennium radio hits, like, soul-coffing, and, like, the lounge lizards. Yeah, primitive radio gods. Boards of Canada, sure. Um, and of course, portus head. Portus head is, I mean, we're never not.

24:38We're not. We're not. We're not. I think, though, that, like, the emotional environment that the two of us were in, uh, I started, like, on the production and started being drawn more and more to, like, the feeling of everything, feeling like it's kind of bursting or, like, almost falling apart. Mm-hmm. And I think that just kind of naturally led to more of a sample-y scotch tapy glue sticky kind of feeling. Um, interesting. And we kind of, we leaned into that in every opportunity. You know, we really wanted to feel like this, like, scrapbook where we've pasted pictures on top of pictures on top of pictures, you know? Yeah. And in that way, like, I've always been a huge fan of, like, hard-cut, editing in drum samples, like, using, using the edit point as a percussive action. Um, yeah, very MPC mute group type behavior. Yeah, exactly. So, like, I was pushing in that direction.

25:38You were pushing in, like, sample scotch tape. Yeah. Um, and we got to this. Yeah. And then it was just, I think the guitars came about just because it, like, I think it felt, it felt more juvenile. I think, especially the way I like to record guitars, I think it's more, um, like, not, like, I'm not very good at guitar. Okay. I like that. I like when everyone is not very good at guitar. Yeah. Yeah. Sure. Like a beginner's mindset. Yeah. And just like, not like, um, it didn't feel like a, like, the more we made, the less it felt like virtuosity was going to be, uh, an, an ingredient. Yeah. I've recently discovered that actually virtuosity is the thing that I value the least. Interesting. Or it just seems like it's another tool. Like, it's not, you know, it doesn't feel like, um, you're not doing the silly dance. You're not trying to be, you know, Walter Becker and Donald Fagan just getting, like, everything computerized perfect.

26:38No. And there, I mean, I think there's a, there's a time in place. Right. Yeah. That's not, not does not this record. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Peg doesn't belong on our infinity. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You guys could bring Jay Grayden into real off one of his solos. Yeah. I think it just needed to feel, uh, like a little more like, like, like, like it was getting out over its skis. And I think that's where a lot of the guitars come in for me is like, you know what I mean? Like, like, just kind of like, just play the fucking guitar. Like, I think I wanted that kind of feeling to a lot of it. A little bit more of like, uh, like an eighth grade kind of like, um, I just learned a bunch of Nirvana songs kind of feeling, which is something that's very, very still in me. Absolutely. Yeah. Also, so many of the songs were written in that spirit of like, like, it's essentially

27:39like a series of freakouts. Um, yeah. Just a miss one meltdown after that. Yeah, exactly. Um, yeah. Which is why I also, I really love that entertainment and Coca-Cola starts it because I like, I've been generally really chewing on the idea of whether or not the level of entertainment that we are affording ourselves as a culture is good or not. Um, and maybe I should only talk about myself inside of that. But I find it really weird that in this moment, we are so, uh, like our empathy is really broken. And yet we are like constantly choosing to watch things that like, like bring our empathy out, but in a controlled way. And yet when. What was this hand gesture? This was this embarrassingly is me milking this.

28:42Milking the spirit of empathy. Yeah. That's what I thought it was. We're only posting the audio. So everyone's going to just have to imagine that gesture in their mind. Guess what that looks like. Yeah, maybe you just don't think about it. I can't believe he's told them. It's just an amazing thing to witness. Um, I know exactly what you mean though. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, dang it. I was saying that complicated thing I've been talking to you. You were, uh, maybe it's not complicated, but I think it's common. It is. Yeah. Like that, like that the we are, we are being numbed continually by the, the doom of the world. And it has a counterpoint to that, uh, potentially unhealthy counterpoint to that. Yeah, we're right. Is that there's, that the, uh, a big trend in entertainment is like overly saccharine, uh, uh, empathy sponge. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not saying that, but like it, but it's like it's because it's safe to feel empathy for like fictional characters. Right. Sure.

29:43Or something versus like when we're actually called to feel that way confronted with an reality. Yeah. Which we are confronted with. Constantly too much. Um, every day. Well, it's awful out there, you know? Yeah. Yeah. It's harder. It's harder to, it's hard. It's hard to, to respond in, you know, I mean, it's, it's not socially acceptable to respond emotionally or authentically to anything. Right. In the moment. Um, yeah. Yeah. So, you know, we're trying to get our empathy back and, uh, and I found that the state of entertainment to be really distressing. Yeah. Like I don't, I don't know how, I don't know how to square it. Yeah. And we still desire it. Yeah. Certainly. I don't know if anyone does. And I guess you're, you're a Coke drinker, not a Pepsi drinker, Amelia. Yeah. Of course. I mean, if you're gonna, if you're gonna have to, yeah, Pepsi boo.

30:43Crushed ice, crushed ice all the way up. Oh, absolutely. And they're both, yeah, they're both probably. Ding dong. Yeah. Good stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. On a semi related note, uh, of just, you know, whores and tragedies out there, I can't help but wonder. I mean, the record, you guys have mentioned Betty's before your studio. That's in North Carolina.

31:44It's in Chapel Hill. Yeah. Second song here, flood season. Um, I, I have to imagine, you know, the, the floods. In, in North Carolina, I guess two years ago, is that, is that where that song comes from? Or is that in your mind at all with, with, with, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. When we first started working on the record, uh, we, we had a couple songs and then we were like, let, you know what, let's go. Let's take a little trip and we'll bring a little studio rig and we'll go up, uh, up these coast and, uh, stay at a family spot and, um, work for a little bit. And then the, the, like, two days before we were going to leave on that trip was when the hurricane had happened. And so we canceled that and stayed back and did mutual aid for like a couple months, just running like box trucks up to, um, Western North Carolina and stuff like that. Um, and then finally, kind of that, like, started to stabilize or rather, I mean, by that, I mean, like, there was literally electricity and cell service and, you know, you could

32:44drive places again. Right. Um, it's still not stabilized. But, you know, this, normalcy was beginning to return. Um, we went to LA, which we do most, at the top of most years. Uh, and we're like, all right, now we're going to get rolling. And the day after we arrived was when the Alte Dina fire and, you know, the, you know, Miri out of fires had absolutely, uh, in 2025. So, um, I think that kind of framed this whole experience for us and was kind of this, um, I mean, I think everybody, um, I think that's what we're doing. We just feel, it's feeling a, I mean, we were obviously acutely involved in two, two major ones of these, uh, uh, you know, more than maybe the average person. But I think everybody feels that sense of like, that it keeps on being this thing that's only supposed to happen once every 100 years. Like, it keeps it just every year is the new thing. I think that, that feeling of like, uh, uh, the relentlessness of, uh, like the bank,

33:50the bank shot experience of tragedy, um, is, is I think of, uh, uh, foundational part of like the modern, at least American headspace experience. Um, um, and I think for us, and that time, it was like, it felt like it was like this, um, macro, um, uh, chaos and doom. But then it like, it felt like it was like a, that, that string kind of linked all the way down to the micro and every later in between. It just felt like everything felt like it was falling apart in the way that, or on fire, or underwater, you know, I think that's kind of where that. It felt, it felt pretty biblical, which like, oddly keeps on, like, has come up on this wreck, comes up over and over again on this record. An angel angel death, right? Yeah. Yeah. Some lighthearted characters popping up here in there. Classic classic, classic sword versions. Pretty lighthearted.

34:51Yeah. Totally. Plastic swords. Like the fun. That's the fun, the angel of death. Yeah. Everybody loves a fun angel of death. I mean, they do. Yeah. Um, I was really surprised by it because it's not, it's like rare. And different imagery for me to be engaging with. Where did that, I guess, where did that come from? Is that just a new strain your, like, I know, you know, to return to my favorite subject point again, like Bob Dylan, for instance, he started writing about Christian shit, like when he became an evangelical Christian, for a while, I get the sense that that maybe is not the experience that you have gone through, but, uh, I don't know, maybe it has. Yeah. No, that hasn't happened for me. Um, but I'm not, I'm not sure exactly where it is coming from yet. Only to say that like when, I think like when you're trying to, when you are sandwiched between a flood and a fire, it's really hard to not feel as if the world is ending.

35:54Sure. And, um, and like a, a way of making that feel lighter for myself was to turn it into a story about the end times, kind of a cartoony whimsical story in which the angel of death was like, embracing being the angel of death was an empowering thing or a way to continue existing in this world. The angel of death was we're all going to have to embrace her eventually. Um, can you talk a little bit about on and on? I'm just, yeah, that's like my favorite song on the record. So I think it's one of my favorite songs you guys have ever done. And it feels like sort of a statement piece here at the, I mean, it's not the last song on the record, but it's the last like, quote unquote, real song, you know, just in the sense that, you know, we were saying entertainment and Coca-Cola and plastic sword are these things that are songs, but they're not, you know what I mean?

36:55Um, yeah, it's just, it's fantastic. Thank you. I'm, I really, that song was such a, it was one of those like, incredible, magical musician days where we, uh, were you, we wanted to use this particular recording of an improvisation that we done with Daniel H. T. J. Myani, like months before and we had our friends, Jen Wasner and Jake Lupin in the studio with us. We were just like, we walked in after breakfast and we're like, okay, what can we do? And then we started, and I felt like the hundreds of times was like, what about this thing? Yeah, I love Sustow, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, the, what about this thing? And I, and I was my annoying self for one moment and then we wrote the song. Yeah. Um, well, because I think Jake found that guitar part like right away, right? Or was that Jen? Was that Jen? Or was that Jen? That was like Jake to me. Yeah, I don't know. Sorry, Jen, if it was you, it was probably Jen. Um, no, maybe it was Jake. Really sounds like Jake either way. Yeah. Together, we all put, we all like put our heads together and created this song and I wrote the,

37:57the lyric in like in, you know, five, very, yeah, in like five minutes and um, yeah, and that was just arranging it. Yeah, and then it was just arranging it and, and thinking about how I love writing songs in that way because like you don't actually know what sort of thing is going to come up when you're trying to write that fast. And like usually I'm talking about something very specific, but I don't know why you like have to find a calm spot in your brain and then all of a sudden this, these like I like memories are maybe like low to the surface. Sure. Which means that like it really actually doesn't have that much to do with me. But this specific song is actually about a memory, the beginning, the beginning of this song is about um, the first morning that I heard Bill Callahan's drinking at the dam, which was, I was waking up in the dorm room of a boy that I had had like really great, my first really great sex with.

39:02And I woke up and it was like the dawn of a new day. Like it felt, I like it's like one of those moments when someone's like, hey, do you remember a time when you were really, really happy? Like I was really, I was happy in a way and it wasn't like about him and it wasn't about the sex, but it was like about the way the air felt and how the music sounded and how like I was 18 and had found a new good thing in life. And that and like that, that's where we are in the first verse and then the rest of the song is kind of a discussion of like how do you deal with the fact that you know that it can be that good? How do you keep going? Yeah, and like, and like how do you also like how do you hold it and keep it with you and know that like actually like this is existing at the same time in every moment.

40:03And that you're alive, you know? Sure. Yeah, it's kind of like the ultimate, like I feel like the it's the it's kind of classic sort of feels like the epilogue to me or the credits rolling and that feels like the period at the end of the sense that starts with out infinity. You know what I mean? Like that it feels like the most succinct like conclusion of that idea. You know, I feel like that title really like came out of and led to into that in a real specific way, you know? Yeah. Like this is just going to continue to be painful and I'm going to like my body will continue to drag me through all of it and how how can I hold this and keep moving? Yeah, I think I and but I also think that there's like an over emphasis on the despair. Like I think you and I naturally tend to overemphasize the despair of existence, particularly right now, which may be like that's beautiful.

41:05Yeah, right. Yeah, like maybe that maybe like either the culture of a relationship or like or the way that like the way that we figured out how to talk about the thing that we have. Yeah, sure. And I think maybe it's an over correction because we make pop music and usually like the opposite happens where we're like people are like talking about you know clap along if you feel like a room without a roof like literally. And like and so we're like no actually like it's this underbelly is the thing that we're talking about because like the thing the shining light in on and on is that like yeah, it's the good. Yeah, it feels like an optimistic no, you know, I guess relatively optimistic note to end this on the circle on not only you know subject matter wise, but even just musically it's got like a there's a there's a real an end themic or kind of uplifting quality to the means the way it kind of like drops you know towards the I don't know back half and then comes back that it felt like a song

42:06that I could have listened to for like 10 minutes straight to be honest if you would want it to do one of those like extended jams. I know that's not typically Silvan S.O. Howstyle on the records at least. I mean actually. And the shows are getting pretty jammy. I don't know. I I remember the first time I saw you guys was at the beacon I think 2018 19 you did this series I think was called like take out or yeah with with that's right and I went to the one or one of the ones where Meg Duffy sat in. Yeah great and habits and that was like so sick because it was such a big yeah, I mean I know those shows were sort of a specialized run of like you know like you said the big band Nick but it it felt like a more just I don't know muscular presentation of the music that I necessarily anticipated. Thanks. It's kind of interesting I feel like the band I feel like both every time we've done a band I think this interesting thing happens where I think the as a duo the really clubby

43:10bassy loud stuff I think that stuff gets tempered just a little and I think the real quiet stuff gets lifted you know and so I think it's always a little surprising because like there's songs that really work in a band context that work a little bit less well as a duo and vice versa. Sure and I know I'm always it's depending on the group of people it like really changes which songs those are like right now we're out with a band at least in the states on this next run and it's made there's some songs that like we've never played before that suddenly are like my favorite part of the set. Sure. But yeah it's always a little it's kind of unpredictable as to what is gonna land in that context. The cool part now of course is that like we have so many songs now I mean like we learned like almost 40 songs for this run and we're probably gonna learn like five ten more maybe. Yeah and so we're just doing wildly different set lists every night and like it's like it's finding I'm excited to see what spaces they all find like by the end of this first leg

44:16Sure. Because it just feels like I'm rediscovering the band kind of in a way you know. Yeah and that I mean that's the best speaking as someone from the outside at least you know frequent concert goer to me is always the most exciting way to experience a show is like you know a show that you're never gonna see again you know you could go on set list FM and see I don't know any old band I'm not gonna call it specifics but like it's the same set list night after night or there's like one or two songs where where things are changed and when you go to a show like when I go to a show like that at least oftentimes I get the feeling that it's like all right they're doing the thing and they're doing a good job of it maybe but they are sort of like clocking in for the nine to five at a certain point and that sense of discovery and excitement and like also probably failure from time to time where like you know maybe things go off the rail in an unexpected way but like that that makes those moments of transcendence and like real discovery on stage all the more precious that's that's that's the good ship. Yeah that's kind of the dream like I don't I mean I don't think we have enough time

45:18left literally to to become fish but yeah nice little halfway point might be nice. How could we know I feel like we have enough time yeah we just gotta stop talking about the songs and then we can you know no what do you mean? Just just how they like like they got they were like really tight and then they realized that they were being mean to each other and decided that they like couldn't give each other notes at the end of the day. That's really good. That's the thing. Like I feel like there's a way I feel like there's a way to do it. It's really it's moving in a very for at least the two of us. It's a very jammy zone and it's what's very engaging I feel very engaged by the show right now. Yeah like I can fuck up the show now really easy you know. I feel which is so great that was what we wanted to do is we really wanted to imbue I knew that if we were going to go on tour I we needed to imbue the show with risk. Yeah I think every time we've gotten really used to doing we really know how to play a duo of Sylvan S.O. Show. We've been doing it for 10 years and we needed a way

46:23we needed a way to be able to train record and now we have it which is so exciting. Well also we had I mean we really just to be fair I could really train record show before but we didn't get to the point where like the we the thing was so dialed that like we could just kind of be fucking around and thrown whatever we want we could do and very wild stuff and it always kind of worked it just got to the point where I was like we just got really good at that version of the thing. Yeah and it started to feel a little bullet proof and I think that's not a great place for at least the two of us to be interesting on on stage. I think that's the the way to do it you know he's to stay true to the stay true to the the art and not have it just turn into this you know auto pilots on rails saying exactly and like even I don't know there's there's differing opinions I did did you guys see the big thief presumably you weren't there but like they just played that whole new record you know live the rhyman and no one knew going into it that that was what they were

47:23going to be in this 30 song triple LP which seems like it's going to be amazing I'm a huge big big fan but like coming out of that some people were complaining about like I'm going to the show I'm paying all this money I want to hear the songs I know performed the way I know them from the record and like I'm sympathetic I guess to someone's like sense of being robbed in that do regard but like I don't know I just it seems so alien to me really at the end of the day like just like expecting to receive a product you know from these artists who I don't know it's just like this is a Netflix I don't know exactly and also like also you know the band you're going to see you have always like there has since they were like a little baby band like every 40th show they would play literally every song they knew one night and the show would be like four hours long like that's yeah how are you into that and it don't know yeah yeah I feel like that's a personally that's the things I'm dreaming of when I go to a big thief show it's like I want to see something that's

48:24never happened for I'm I keep trying to encourage I went I had this big before I got rid of Twitter I had this big push one of my routine things would be to try to get the fish and jam band taping community to start taping big thief shows because I don't feel like that's the other there there's so there's more cross over there yeah then then one might expect oh yeah um so we can get him getting ridding getting rid of things I can't help but but ask um I think you guys did this a while ago actually this appointment like a last year but everything's off Spotify at this point this new record is true it's true not on spotify uh what how has that been working for you in the in the time since you made that you're laughing well working is a interesting word to choose yeah uh okay here it has been working and then it feels really wonderful to do something that we

49:26to make a decision that's an exercise in putting our morals into action yes that felt so fucking good it is rare to be able to do that in today's music industry certainly a lot of times you're sort of just looking the other way um and deciding that you need to do something even though you don't necessarily agree with it that is the only way that it is working um I mean it's really mentor yeah if by working you mean like are people consuming the music that we make in the same way that they used to be the like the people who really really love our band are and everyone who like knows of our band is really confused about why we're not on spotifying sure like I get like notes like pretty much every day of people being like where's this song what's happening like

50:28you better tell your team that something's like that like it's a glitch something's happened they don't believe or even worse they're like I work at a yoga studio and you took your music off oh no we like and I'm like really angry and upset like what are you trying to prove a point to which I'm like yes yes yeah was that an inconvenience for you I don't like I don't know yeah um yeah I think it's I think it has been effective I think there's ways it's been really effective and ways it's been really ineffective sure um and I think those to me kind of highlight the inherent difficulty of living in in the world at the end of capitalism in a way that feels uh morally correct or even morally neutral sure um on one hand I feel like I talk to people I

51:36like people do get upset with us obviously I think every time you take a stand that makes that is disruptive in any way impacts people some people yeah one they and there's I think there's a subset of the population that perceives that as judgment of them which it is not you know sure sure so that's a whole thing um but I on the flip side of that I feel like I also talk to people every single event we do every single pressing we do multiple you will come up and say like it's so cool that you did that so um and I know it's like a lot of people have messaged just saying like you know it was the push I needed to finally cancel my subscription and go over to something else which is like that's great I feel like in that way it has like really served its purpose yeah like I kind of I said this thing a while ago but like I do think that like we have reached all of the people who care like it's been a year you know and I think that like all of the people who give a shit we we they have all they all understand and have heard the message whether they did

52:41anything it doesn't matter but like they get it but that's like very few people very few people you know like like the number of people who like actively follow music or it's where it's where it's a driving force in their life and they are actively tapped into news bands new stuff coming out that kind of thing discuss it with their friends go to shows that kind of thing that I think is a very small group of people um and everyone else like I totally make sense but like aren't they are not as tapped in yeah they got the shit going on they got kids they got a job they like they're like Billy Joel I don't know it doesn't you know what I mean like it's like they they doesn't they're not sitting here like weighing the political ramifications of every fucking action they take like they just want it the sandwich you know what I mean yeah and like that is so fine like I just totally get that too you know like I just think it's been eye opening on a number of levels uh kind of on all sides of it but yeah so you know some economy some

53:47of column B true that's insane it's also been interesting just to like deal with uh like to talk to the people that we love about it like the amount of people that like who are my dear friends who are like boy I really wish I could hear you in the car and I'm like you and I'm like well you yeah I can talk you through the various ways that you could hear me in the car uh that's been kept got a great app yeah yeah yeah yeah though though I think that is the sign too we're like the you big witty of the monopoly yeah yeah yeah shows itself it shows you why we should have monopolies I don't know it's like that kind of thing I'm gonna say oh gosh this is like this is just the the air we're breathing yeah exactly yeah it's a very difficult uh proposition I think I then I'll just to make it clear if it wasn't already I find it very admirable what you guys uh did and have done uh with that I'd say this is someone who's podcast he's

54:49distributed on Spotify uh full knowledge of Daniel Eck investing in fucking weapon automated weapon systems or whatever that doofus um you know but like at the same time it's uh it's almost like a collective action problem you know we're like if if everyone or some sort of critical majority of artists were able to band together and sort of a you know a union perhaps and collectively decide to withhold their product their you know the product of their labor I should say uh from Spotify then that really could sort of animate a push a change in some direction but when it is just an individualized problem that every artist has to decide individually to take action on their own then you know then you get put in a difficult position uh which it sounds like you guys you know maybe have been navigating where like all these other bands are on Spotify uh but Silvaneso isn't and so like that yoga studio playlist or whatever is still going uh on Spotify it's just

55:52missing you know it's missing a Silvaneso song on it yeah um it seems very challenging to me well also I just feel like it's uh uh even that framing I think I have a tough time with because like it removes the agency of the individual um like I think that capitalism can all all kind of like oppressive fascist forms of self-governance I think they um I think they rely on individualization so that like it because we're all easier to deal with when it's just one at a time that's why I don't know unions but to me it's like I don't expect other artists to do this it is extremely difficult it's financially you know devastating it's like it's you know like that's not that was not I think the thing that we were pushing for I think it's like I think when you block a highway um and someone's mad at you because they're late to work um I think that there's like the the thing

56:57that is happening is there is the friction between like the cause and the like normalcy of what is happening right um and to me the the greatest group of people that can take action on that is the consumer like switching to a different streaming platform takes seven minutes yeah you know what I mean and you probably will spend less money because it modifies expensive um so it's like it's a it's a very low lift for the people who put money into the system and it's a very heavy lift for people who are like take money out of the system it depends on it yeah yeah so could there be a could a musicians union that pulls everybody from Spotify being answer maybe that sounds like a boulder being pushed up a hill but like yeah but like the idea of like oh like this protest happened like someone else was no longer on my yoga playlist like why is that and

57:57then like spending five minutes shifting to a different thing that is a low lift that's an easy one sure so but again it's like what so what action is going to spring like spur that kind of motivation and like I think this is spring some of I think some of this has that has happened because of this like I talk to people every day for them this has happened but like on a mass scale no yeah I don't yeah and to be clear like the concept of this you know hypothetical musicians union you know getting stood up and then getting an action like that that's that was kind of the point I was making like that's probably an impossibility and a corporation like Spotify is there to take advantage of that fact you know especially considering the fact that they are you know hand in glove with the labels at this point it's it's it's an extractive exploitative mechanism in a field that you know extraction and exploitation is the last thing that you would want you that

58:58would be the last thing you would want in any field but particularly in a field of you know of creation of art making as opposed to just like you know turning out a can of Coca-Cola to return to a top of your spoke about our own anyway sorry to be dragging you guys down on this no that's great conversation here that's okay it's it's uh I wish that there was a way to talk about it uh in like a fun effervescent way like I wish I wish that I felt differently about it or like I wish I wish that the decision made me I'm so proud of doing it I'm so proud of doing it and the and the reality of it is uh is like showing itself to be pretty unsustainable um but it's I'm so proud of what we chose to do and facing the fact of how uh how it's

1:00:03how it's making it really hard for us to get our album in people's ears is really shocking I feel that yeah I you know I know very few people in my own you know I say this is the guy who has the music podcast where I interview musician like very few people diminishingly few people you know uh in my life would be going to you know certainly the people go to shows and you know see concerts and stuff but like in terms of getting the new record like if it buying CDs or or LPs or something like that it's just it is a you I mean you were saying this a moment ago Nick it's it's just a small small subset of people and so it's uh it's it's a challenging limitation to have to deal with yeah even on a lower level though just even the the version of like oh ethically and uh sonically other platforms are far superior yeah like like who's listening to you know like I

1:01:04completely empathize with the person who's had a Spotify account for 10 years and like you know has their stuff all set up and like you know doesn't care that piano man is streaming at 128 kilobytes per second like just like yeah why would you care you know what I mean yeah like like I don't I just completely understand that like like the eight but like that's a you know like the motivation for that person to be like oh I would like uh even even just politics politics aside like oh I would love like a higher fidelity you know I don't know stream yeah I just get it man I just get it all yeah I love that you do I think I do too well uh I guess maybe uh keep your eyes out on Spotify at some point sounds like maybe something will be happening yeah I never mean inevitably we'll see who knows man soon rather than let well I you know like I said I find it deeply admirable that it was something you guys it is something that you guys have done and like you said I mean like really putting

1:02:06your money where your mouth is because as working musicians like that is it's taken money out of your mouth basically so to mix metaphors in a weird way um and that's just it's something that I wish I wish more I well I wish a that we didn't have to deal with this but be you know given that we do I wish that more folks would be able to take swings and willing to take swings the way that you guys have so salute on that regard uh for no thanks man thank you um completely shifting gears Daniel aged you mentioned him earlier we have collaborators on the record I'm a huge I'm if you guys ever listen to teen ink or ink oh yeah oh no yeah him and his brother Andrew I was a huge fan of that they only put out like they had a single and then they had like an EP and then like one record maybe two records yeah um and there's two right yeah I think my the mom might be short yeah yeah I think two LPs I remember seeing them when they were still going by teen ink uh at this this short lived venue in Los Angeles uh the the church on york in highland park it was like a basement

1:03:10venue um in a former church and it was like a fire trap they ended up shutting it down it's like a wedding venue now or something that you you know rent out for fifty thousand dollars um but it was an amazing show anyways uh Daniel I think he's been touring with uh Dijon this year um and uh it's it's funny when you mentioned that like virtuosity is something that is just like a tool or it's not particularly interesting because like I feel like he is a virtuosic player um I just can you talk about him and and his uh roll in the record a little bit yeah it's interestingly you say I guess he is totally a virtuosic player but the thing that I find that his his he he is incredible at playing instruments but I think the thing that I love the most about him as a musician is his choices uh and his brain his the the ideas that he comes up with sound like ideas that would be made

1:04:11by someone who doesn't play a lot of music very regularly like he he like can bend like moves notes around in a way that like are not in a traditional form or they always sound like a they make you go like what very emotional yeah like every time you so like it's cool you pointed that out because I wouldn't like of course he has like so many virtuosic qualities but he's such a like uh a weirdo that way well I think I think like if I played you everything Daniel played on the record I don't think there's any there's no chops to any of it you know I that I would there's no like fast movements they malseem shoot yeah there's no you know there's there's none of that I think it's all very it's about the voicings he chooses and the ways he puts chords and and the ways he

1:05:13what is he voices chords in a melodic way that just feel I mean he could play like the simplest chord progression ever and the way he chooses to voice it and and speak it on the bass or on the keys will make you think you've never heard that progression before you know it just it feels very he's he's got such a singular voice and to me at least none of that has to do with like technical virtuosity like like he glue that's a clue the tool that he can use that he like has worked to possess but I when I think of his playing I think of it far more about his tastefulness and his restraint than I do about his like ability to molmstein out you know what I mean sure yeah I'm just always stoked to see him do anything because again I was such a huge teen ink ink fan and felt like like they could have been would have been huge in another world but you know

1:06:17clearly they're just making making their talents available to other artists I mean and they were kind of early you know like like all the like I love Dijon and McGee and like kind of this whole newer wave of kind of like production forward like R&B I guess for a lack of a better term like Leonardo R&B yeah but I feel like they just they were just like early on that weight yeah you know I wonder if those records had come out I'll do even a year or two later um if it would have been a different thing but like you know and then they they went on their playing in those bands they like you know Daniel worked with Frank Ocean for years and years and years that's well that's what's going to set like I bet if those records came out after blonde like their careers might have been totally different yeah but also like they're all both those guys are crushing yeah yeah yeah exactly what they wanted to be yeah yeah they're their careers are so

1:07:20yeah like blossoming and viable it's just that they're not they figured they're not in the center of them right which yeah and I've never gotten the impression at least from Daniel I mean I don't want to put more into this but I've never gotten the impression that that was specific thing with something he desires yeah I've never gotten the impression that he's like what I really want to do is sing pop my own music yeah he it's just doesn't yeah he's managed to avoid that disease which is which is so admirable he's he's just so cool we've got this actually got this crazy tape of like the two days we spent improvising with him and TJ that like kind of feels like a record on its own that led to so many of the songs on this record yeah it became like the bedrock of so many tracks on this record that's very time yeah you guys did a great job just like bringing in the right people around you I think you know Daniels a great point I mentioned Meg from Hanham it's earlier Blake Mills that's another one of my big news I just I'm very impressed with the way you've sort of very naturally seem organically seem to have assembled this like I don't

1:08:22just crew around you to integrate into the world of solenoid but at the same time extend it thank you we fellowship and friendship it's just sustaining us these days it really helps it's something that we all need these days I think in greater and greater amounts Amelia Nick thanks so much that's great that was so fun yeah thank you for all your thoughtful questions thanks again to Amelia Meef Nick Sanborn the band Sylvan S.O the record Owl Infinity available now go go buy it go you know or even you know you can stream it elsewhere just it's available it's out there you can figure it out and you should figure it out because it's good music they'll be on the road later this year and on into next looking forward to whenever the you know the the jam band

1:09:28version of Sylvan S.O ends up being Hamele Thrower throw a dark star in there trying to catch sunflower something fingers crossed Jokerman the body bay We're having bok