Is remote working really the dream?

0:00Hello there and welcome, I'm Enkechi Obuana with your weekly deals of Focus on Africa of the conversation. But before we begin, a quick reminder that we also filmed this episode and it will be available on the BBC Africa YouTube channel from Saturday October 10th at 3pm GMT. Now how do you feel about the traditional 9-5 working in an office job? Since the COVID-19 pandemic, many people have traded the office for remote work. It can be made free of travel while you work, earning in a foreign currency and having more control over your time. I have been speaking to Joy Alibar, who is 29 years old from Uganda and is currently working in communications for a company based in the United States to find out more about this. There is so much free will you can work with 5-10 people. You reach a point where you don't apply for any opportunities and they start coming

1:03to you. I haven't applied for a job in two years. There's a point where it reached that I was earning my weekly salary was my monthly salary for my 9-5. And I have also been hearing from 34-year-old Mary Usaji from Kenya, who works in web development, also for companies in the US. They don't understand up to now my parents when I go to visit them and maybe I stay longer. They're like, you're not going back to work. I'm like, I'm working. Like, how? I'm on my laptop. So is remote working really the dream lifestyle, social media makes it out to be. It's Friday, October 9th. Let's get into the conversation. Welcome to the program. Thank you. Hello. It's good to have you with us. Welcome. Welcome ladies. Thank you. I feel like you are popping. Thank you. Thank you so much. How was the commute here? It was okay. Simless. And yeah, you actually traveled to join us in Nairobi. How was the trip? It was okay.

2:04Very okay. It's good to have you with us. Thank you so much for taking our time to join us. All right. Okay. So let's get into the conversation now. Joy. Talk to me about that moment where you said, hey, Joy, this 9-5 life is not for me anymore. I need to do something about it. Now I was already working my 9-5 and then I got a remote job. And then you know African parents, they're like, oh my god, you shouldn't leave this job. Safety because of they believe the 9-5 offers you a certain level of safety compared to the remote work opportunity. And then I would go to the commute, imagine going in the morning and then coming back and walking from like 5 to midnight. So I was so burnt out and I'd gotten two border-border accidents. Oh my goodness. Yes. And so the second one, the exospei pat me and I just left work. Remember, I'm now running back to do my module. So I'm running back to do my remote job and then I got that whatever the accident. And I remember staying home for like 2 weeks and I spoke to my mom, I'm like, mommy, I'm

3:05gonna resign from this job. But she's like, no, no, no. So for me, that was the breaking point and I was like, you know what, I'm gonna go fully into this remote work thing and it has to work and that was it. And you know, Mary, you also had like a 9-5 on-site job. Yes. Talk to me about your experience when you were working physically in your office. Actually, my last 9-5 job was the one that made me just to think about changing everything because I'm not a morning person. I was working from 7am to 5pm every day from Monday to Saturday. So you can imagine, I didn't even have time to go in person like traveling or hanging out. The only time I had was just Sundays to rest and then wash your clothes then you started again on Monday and I was just so tired. The salary was so little. I just felt like, okay, my life is just going in shambles and then it was, that is what made me now to start thinking of finding work that's gonna give me more money and more

4:06freedom just to be present to do the things that I love. That's when I went to. How long were you in that last employment, for instance? Well, it was around 2 years. Not even it was 2017-2019. That's around 2 years. Right. But, but, but, but, where are some things that you look back and say, you know what, actually working from the office, you know, was good. Yeah, maybe there are a sense of just having people around you in a connection, seeing people every day and just being sure that you're going to get salary at the end of the month. Yeah. So, basically financial stability. Yeah, that, yeah, that's, okay, it's small but I'm still getting it at the end of the month because that's more something I enjoy most of the times when working remotely. Yeah. So, but do you ever feel anxious? No, no, this is for two of you. Do you ever feel anxious that, you know, this month or this week I may not be able to get a job or I may not be able to get paid because I don't have like a steady inflow of income

5:07stemming from that financial stability we're talking about that on site, 95 gives you. Yeah, when I was starting to remotivate, there were times like around six to eight months where I didn't have any gigs coming in. What? I was shaking. How were you surviving? I was shaking. I can tell you I was shaking. So, those times come where you have clients and then there are times when you don't have clients. When I was starting, I didn't know how to navigate. That's where I had to go maybe more reminding and all those kind of things to survive and take some other jobs that were not web development just to feed myself. But then when the job started coming, I said, okay, now I know this is how it's going to work. So, when I'm making money, I'm going to plan financially well for that. I'm planning for the rainy days. So since then, I know how to maneuver that but there are days where you don't get gigs, you don't get clients. Joy, do you also have, yeah, you want to add something? I think I share a different perspective. Okay. I always say that there are two avenues when it comes to remotivate. There is the employee aspect and then there's the freelance aspect.

6:10And I've done both of them because my first ever remotivate was employee. Now, employee is like, okay, you are sure at the end of the month you're going to be paid this amount of money and this and this. Now, when you get into the freelance space, of course, there is so much free will you can work with five, ten people, capacity is important, capacity because you cannot work for fifteen people, you just one person. So when you start doing that over an extended period of time in the freelance space, you reach a point where you don't apply for any opportunities and they start coming to you. I would talk about this on TikTok and say, I haven't applied for a job in two years. And then someone is like, ah, how is that possible? Two years, three years. People start referring. That's what we're talking about with people. People start referring for these opportunities. But just like any field of work in the beginning, it's not going to be easy. But if you get into the employee space, you are sure at the end of the month, I'm going to get this amount of money. If you're in the freelance space, of course, you will. Let me say something about the employee.

7:10The employee said, now you get structured like they ask you to work from maybe seven a.m. to five p.m. Some employers ask you to be on your laptop to be active. So you feel like you're still in the office, but in your own house. So that one I was like, no, I don't want this kind of remote working because now they have to be online. So you went freelance? When they send you a message, they want you to reply to them five minutes. They want to see your like, Casra moving. I'm like, you're controlling me in my house. No, I don't want. Please, I'm just going freelance. So it felt like you were in the office. Exactly. I was literally over your show. That's how you felt. That's why you went for the freelance. Yeah, I was like, no, I did with two clients. And one was so, so strict at 2 a.m. Sometimes I'm tired. I want to sleep, but they want you to be, yeah, you were so. They want you to be online. I was like, I was paid after two months. I said, okay, guys, I think I'm done. I quit. I quit. It's been real. Yeah. So yeah. Right.

8:11But speaking of, you know, working on godly hours because of time zones, Joy, tell me what that does to you. As first of all, your sleep cycle, I mean, doesn't have any impact on your sleep cycle, on your family's second stands. Yes. What does that come with? It affects your sleep cycle a lot. What do they call it? The psychothermarythium when your body just automatically wakes up. So for me, I have a very hard time going to bed like at 9 p.m. I'll wake like a night all. There's also this myth that we are sleeping and eating at home. It's the people they think we are. Yeah. So you see, which brings me to my next point, right? Yeah. About perception. I mean, we have traditional African parents, right? Yes. What they have known all their life is you wake up in the morning, you take your briefcase or you take your bag and you're off to a physical work space. Yeah. And then in the evening, your back and the cycle continues. Talk to me, first of all, Mary, how you were able to, how did family take it when you

9:12said you know what? My work is remote. I mean, I'm at home from morning to the night. How did they take it? They don't understand up to now. My parents, when I go to visit them and maybe I stay longer, they're like, you're not going back to work. I'm like, I'm working. Like, how? I'm on my laptop. So I remember when I was on my nine to five, my dad used to call our office line and he would say, hello. And then he hears me saying, hello. And he's like, gives that maybe a friend to see. And he sent to my daughter. She just picked the office from. So he was proud. And now there's no office. There's no office. Oh my God. I called my office line. So he's like, are you sure you're working? Yes, I am. And it's just, okay, because now they can see even the life changed. They see black tacks. The amount of money I sent back home as a gift. So they're like, okay, she's okay. We had to trust it. But they look at you and they're like, okay, you've saved there for two weeks in the village. Like no, I'm working. I'm working. Right. Yeah. I think for me, my parents were very concerned about the safety issue about it.

10:13You know, traditional jobs offer a certain level of safety. In Kitchie, when people ask you where you work, just point BBC. Right. This is why I was like, for us, we're pointing the cloud. We're in the sky with some world. There's even one client. People have even done away where you work. So far, she was very, very concerned about that. So the first year, she's calling my sister, saying, I don't know. Maybe there's some months sending you money from abroad. You know, it was a month. Yeah, because what do you mean? You went to the house pressing a laptop. And then someone is going to send you USD. So you're not for conference. But it's going to be a year. This girl is being very, very, very. So one year, two years, I think when I hit the two year mark, and then I became very consistent and everything. And then she started saying, I left home. It's very, very important that you leave the house. You leave your parents home if you want to work remotely. So when I left home and I got my own place, she came around. Like, I think these things are working. And then when they ask their friends, they're like, oh my God, she's doing amazing things. When they get the validation of their friends, you're good to go.

11:14And that's the major thing about your parents. Like my daughter works here and she's the CEO. And if I even call her, you can see she'll be the one who asks. She's the one who joy works online. She works online. And now she's very, very, very, very, very, very, very, she's the advocate. Oh, yeah. She's from what I mean. But now when you're coming, you're asked where do you work? Yeah. Oh, well, I'm very specific. You point up. Well, I can't. Yeah, but with time they come around, they really have to see that your life is progressing. If your life stays the same, then they're like, I'm not understanding this. USD, when does it arrive? So yeah, right now, she's very, very proud. I would say that. Yeah. This is Focus on Africa from the BBC World Service. I want to play a clip I found on TikTok about a lady talking about remote working, a sherry high experience. Let's take a listen. And I'll get your reactions to that. OK. One of the others decision I have to make in my life was putting the remote job that paid

12:16me between $16,000 to $2,000 only when I was just passing out my car as a veteran. Guys, I know the money was good. Very, very good. But guys, the work environment was very, very toxic. The client was worse. Like, the client would mess with me at midnight, talk down on me, you sorts me up on the like, not just on the other stuff as well. No matter how hard you worked, it was never enough. And I said, because the money was good, because no company would pay me $16,000, $2,000 here in Nigeria. Never. But actually, go to your points where any time I saw an email or WhatsApp message pop up, I would panic. Like, my heart would start beating fast. And I realized that I was losing myself. Mary and Joy. Yeah. She had spoken so much about, you know, toxic work environment. Now, these are things that one would say the experience in a physical onsite job. But here she is talking about a virtual job. Joy, what's your reaction to that? I think what she shared is true when it comes to that toxic environment. It's there because remember, there is something called the African bias.

13:17You know, racism, all of that. It's still there. It's still the remote work. Yeah. People would think about you as somebody who is not qualified, but they see, okay, this is cheap labor. And yes, so if I ask somebody in the United States, maybe I need to pay them $5,000. But this person, I'll pay them $2,000 US dollars and they can get the job done even sometimes better than the person abroad. You can even see it during the interview. Okay, they ask you, so where are you from? And then you say you're from Uganda. And the first thing that crosses their mind is like, maybe, I mean, some president who was the lot of hammer. Oh wow. Yeah, you can see there. So there's like a stereotype. That's a big yes. Yes, yes, you can see there first. You can just see what the energy is about. Maybe they're not so curious. Remember when they posted this opportunity, they say it's remote around the world. Okay. You asked me, is Africa wherever we are located? But now that I tell you, I mean, Uganda, you're feeling some type of way. But you see the thing about the CV, the CV is showing my experience, my skill.

14:20And you're like, oh, I like this person. But when you meet them, yeah, so that's, I would say that's where it all comes from. There's a lack of respect for certain Africans or certain individuals because I would, I like to call it the African bias. Hmm. Mary, same, same perception. Yeah, I think so too. Because I remember, there's a client who hired me and they told me, I'm going to pay you according to the way the rates being paid in Kenya. But I was like, I'm working international. So why are you saying that? Because yeah, it was just paying me according to the standards. Hmm. And it didn't switch right with me. Sometimes some jobs I do, my counterpart in the US, I know they're paid three times better. Something like $100 per hour and maybe I'm getting $20 per hour. So just, okay. Well, I still steal on the money, right? Tell me what that pay difference is from both of you when you were working on site and then now that you're fully remote, what is that disparity in pay like joy? For me personally, when, when I got my first role, it was a content manager or the employee

15:24role, when I started working with her, the money rose over an extended period of six months because she was offering training. And so I went from earning one figure. Let me say like I was earning maybe like $3 and then it keeps going up and keeps going up. $3 an hour. For our yes in the beginning and then it kept going up and kept going up. Now when it kept going up, there's a point where it reached that I was earning my weekly salary was my monthly salary for my nine to five. No way. Yes. So what you were earning in a month, in a month, doing the commute. Yeah. It reached a point where I was earning it weekly. In a week. Wow. Yes, it did. Even you, I would talk about this with Mary with my company. I would talk about it. Really Mary, is that an experience? Yes. It was just my first client, first pay was like four times. Ah. You must have. Yeah. In one piece. Like my first remote to a client, it was four times. Four times what you were earning. And so him that was small. $10 per hour. And that was small.

16:24And that was just a beginner. It was like any role. The more you skill, the more experience you have, you can make a better baguette. So Mary, you posted a video on social media talking about why remote working opportunities are harder for Africans. Talk to us about that. So another thing when you're going to apply for these jobs on this remote job site, this job I applied for, I went through the whole process. I even did an interview. I passed everything. I, and they told me they want to verify me. So I went and I had my email for Nama, they're like, we don't hire from Kenya. What? I've seen when I was studying. So why did they make you go through all that? They don't know. But did they say why they don't hire from Kenya? They are not open to hire from Kenya right now. I was like, put it clear because they, they say remote. They say remote. Well, well, applied. Everything passed. When to verify my phone number. Then I realized it's the same. It happens to so many people. They apply for jobs and they tell you they don't hire from Africa. And you're like, but they are put there remote. So remote, do you mean by remote? Right. And so joy.

17:25Now, we've also seen incidents where young people as speaking up about being scammed by online recruiters or jobs, you know, have you experienced that and what's your take? Honestly, for me, I haven't been scammed before. Thank God. But I've had a couple of people who have said to me, joy, this person took my money. I've always said this. And I always say this on my TikTok. Scammers are not creative at all. Someone is going to say they want to give you a thousand dollars to copy and paste this into a Google sheet. And you're like, ah, this is too good to be creative. But I guess we have a certain level. Please pardon me for saying this, this piracy. Like, we're very desperate. We're like, oh, we really want this opportunity. And then anytime somebody asks you for money, get you the, we please ask you for money. No, before hiring you. No, they don't. So I'm the one who's unemployed. Mm-hmm. But I'm supposed to give you money. So that you can give me a job. Yeah. So there's certain things I feel like sometimes we overlook because we are so hungry.

18:27We're like, oh, my god, I really need this opportunity. But nobody should ask you for money in exchange for a job. If they're not asking you for any sort of like video, for me, I'm very, very key on the video quite because video lowers the entry. Right. No, people feel sometimes I probably about recording a video. Even people are broad. They'll say, oh, I'm not going to record a video for this opportunity. Who do these people think they are? It's difficult. For people we don't do videos. It's not like, for me, it was a good opportunity. It's not something that's very hard. But it's just enough to tell you that these people they want to save, they want to unload the bar at entry. They're not just saying, oh, and come, everybody should come. Right. Very other red flags that you have noticed. They send you emails with Gmail. Oh. Like you are a company. You want to pay me? Oh, no. Oh, when there's no company email. Yeah, you're sending me on Gmail. I'm like, no, this is fishy. So that's why I know it as well. So I'll say no. Should I be the main? Should I be the main? The main customer. They speak a lot about the authenticity of it.

19:28Let's talk about some of those downsides now. Joy. What are the issues? Have you experienced working remote? Honestly, you have to be very, very intention about community. Yeah. That's the part. Yeah. Yeah. Of course, office you'll find your car. Then you'll have to pray to break into this car. But then when you walk remotely, it may only be you. A lot. I know how you guys have, I, in Ketchai, really, if you guys have like end of your party as well. We don't have end of your party. Maybe it's now me and Mary Wustat, I will end of your party. We don't have that nice one. We don't show it. We invite me. You're as your, as your, as your buddy. Yeah. Wow. So we don't have community. You have to be very, very intentional about community. Because if you're not, you'll find that the people you only know, you know somebody in Canada, you know someone in United States or wherever. Especially if you work on teams that are very big and people located around the world. But you can feel some type of way about, oh, I don't have my colleagues here and stuff like that. For us in Uganda, when we have weddings, they're like,

20:30oh, so let the workers come and say something. Maybe if there's a function. And people are looking for your workers. And your workers are in Canada. Yeah. So that's community is something you have to be very intentional about. Get out of the house, move. Because you can just be in there and your life can go away. But sometimes when you're too busy, you don't even, sometimes I can even be in the house for three weeks, not living the house. Three weeks. Yeah. Now you're sometimes, you're in lockdown. No, that's giving me cold advice. You get a lot of, maybe jobs coming in and maybe, you see, I mean tech. Sometimes when things are just technical websites are down and you have to fix things. So we have to be all the time on my laptop. Three weeks are going, I'm like, oh my god. How do people look like? I need to go and see people outside. I've forgotten how people look like. So yeah, it can get really sometimes lonely. And ladies, finally, do you think that now that you're working as jelly with American companies, foreign companies that are not even on the African continent?

21:30Do you see yourself moving abroad to maybe work with those companies or operate from base? No, I wouldn't want. I never thought of going to maybe a relocate. And I'm okay here in Africa, but I love traveling. So I can get my money here, plan and travel and come back. I think I need that money from Africa. It's better than getting the same amount when you're there. I share the same sentiment in America, Mary. I'm curious about traveling to those countries, visiting, seeing my workmates and no hugging them, I didn't come back to Africa. I'm happy I come here in Nairobi because of course of the money exchange, it's not going to make sense. Right. It's not going to make sense. It's not something that I pray that everybody understands. Fantastic. Thank you so much, Mary and the joy. This was a very joyful conversation. Thank you. And that's it on focus on Africa, the conversation. Our producers were Caroline Joseph and Fananegash.

22:33Our senior producer was Priya Cipee. While David and Zal was the technical producer. Our editors are Charles Gitonga and Mariam Abdullah. You can catch us on YouTube every Saturday for focus on Africa, the conversation. And on Monday to Friday on your favourite podcast platforms. I am K.C.O.Bunna and I'll definitely see you next time.