Jay Dyer with Mark Hackard: The Americans and Cold War Espionage

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1:00This up charts are making. We're saving our own Soviet crypto cryptocurrency. Anyway, welcome. Can everybody hear me all right? It looks like the chat is live. We got a good audience building here. People piling in. We have us with us finally on video, not just some lame avatar but an actual video as I've got everything ready to go. No. We have Mark Hackert. How you doing, Mark? How you doing, Jay? I'm doing great. That's a good audio. You can't, you're coming in clear now. Okay, that's good. Yes, everyone's asking me about Homeland. I have not watched Homeland, so I don't know anything about, oh, then I know that Claire Danes does whatever the CIA tells her to do in that show and that show was consulted by the CIA and quite a bit of messaging was embedded into Homeland. I remember reading articles over the years about the series, but I still never watched it. Did you ever watch that one? I just saw bits and parts. Yeah, it was definitely consulted. I think it had to do with something

2:08about Brody. The main character Brody was brainwashed by... Yeah, that's right. Yeah, it's a lot of terrorists or whatever. They made it about at the end, I think they made it about Iran. Of course. The fiction has to fit into the narrative. Everybody says my audio is always... I don't know. Is that better? Yeah, can you guys hear me? Okay. Let me turn this up as much as I can. Is this better? All right, so it looks like... Yeah, we're going to be talking about the Americans. Now, Mark has done some interviews in the past on Americans he went on and talked about this and a couple previous instances, but he and I never really got into the show because I had still not finished it, but I had read Mark's essays on the illegals, the illegal's operations, and then the drop-off and this kind of stuff. So I've got a lot of good questions from his essays that he translated and from the show, but if you don't know, the Americans was a six-season series

3:14that was on FX that I think it ended in 2018. And so we're going to be talking about some of the elements of the TV show. I thought it was really good in terms of... I mean, obviously, there's propaganda involved in that because it comes out right before Roshige, you know. But just as a show, it was very well done. I like the way they ended the show. It didn't go the way I expected, just strictly from an entertainment perspective. But we want to get into something more than just the entertainment layer here. We want to get into the reality behind the director of S. Illegals, the reality behind what the CIA, what the FBI, what the KGB were up to during this time period of the late 70s and into the mid 80s and then into the period when the Soviet Union collapsed. So nobody is better than that than Mark Hackers. So thank you for coming. Let's talk about my first question and I have your link to Espionage History Archive there. So if you want to read any of these essays that Mark has done or the things that he's translated from KGB kernels and what not,

4:18you can go to Espionage History Archive. Let's talk about the embassy. So in the show, we have the Illegals operation and before we get to that, take that back. Why don't you tell us about the Illegals, what this was and what their main job was tasked with. Yeah, the Illegals are a specifically Russian type of deep cover intelligence where it really was pioneered by the Russians and the early Soviet Union. So an Illegal is basically a deep cover intelligence officer that is not operating under diplomatic cover or anything associated with official Soviet and now Russian institutions overseas, the embassy, the consulate, maybe one of the press agencies or cultural organizations, things like that has nothing to do officially and

5:25seemingly unofficially with the Soviet Union. They typically would take on the identity of foreign citizens, so citizens of the target country or of a third country and that would have their identity would have nothing to do, no links back to Russia. So in this actually in the show, that's what I'm going to ask about the embassy. So in the show, the people at the resident sure, at the Soviet embassy, they don't actually know the identity of the Illegals. I don't know who Philip and Elizabeth are. They're kind of... Yeah, usually not. Usually that's a very, very strictly guarded secret and they're not going to, it's compartmentalized. They wouldn't know the identities of those Illegals. Typically what you have is out of the residency or the, that is, in plural, you will have like, there is what's called a line N officer and line N, like you have like line K is counterintelligence, line PR is political intelligence, line T or line X is technological

6:28intelligence, you know, like scientific technological stuff, line N dealt with the Illegals. And so line N would communicate or facilitate illegal operations in that country or in third countries you know, through the Soviet embassy. But again, that was very strictly guarded information and you know, the people who might know about that, you know, were few and far between. That was, yeah, it was highly compartmentalized. So, normal residency officers wouldn't know, you know, who, who the Illegals were or, you know, what they might be up to normally or, I mean, those, the operations were meant to be completely insulated. That's what I was going to say, yeah, in your, in the director s training and illegal work that you have, you talk about the fact that

7:30even other members of the KGB didn't know about the Illegals, that it was just one committee, right, or what they call it, the center, only one section of the center. Yeah, it was, it was a separate directorate within, so like within the KGB, you had foreign intelligence, which was the first chief directorate. And then within the first chief directorate, you had directorate s. And directorate s was the Illegals directorate. And so, but the like directorate s, you know, like the first chief directorate in Moscow had, they themselves were set apart. So like they, they had their own head of quarters and it wasn't at Lu Bianca, which is like, you know, the same as KGB headquarters. Rather, it was a place called Yasin Yama that they built in the 1970s. And, and it was kind of out towards the countryside. And, and from there, you know, directorate s within the first chief directorate, they didn't, they didn't have any contact with, you know, I mean, they weren't, you know, going to Yasin Yama every day, that their, their facilities, you know, were,

8:33were generally outside, like their training and all that kind of stuff was, they didn't have con, they didn't have every day contact with, with other KGB officers. Right. It was very, it was, it was very, very, very important. Very important. Yeah. Yeah. Would the, now, so in the essay that you did, you talked about that the age of recruitment would have been at least at the minimum 20 into the 30s. When, yeah, with, in the show with Philip and Elizabeth, they recruited pretty young, maybe 18, 20 somewhere in there. And then they're, they're taken to this kind of, you know, makeshift little American neighborhood where they kind of have to spend their time and get used to. Yeah. Was that fairly real or was that something that they, you know, there was, there was always that, there was always that rumor during the Cold War that they're, they're like these, you know, kind of these fake, so, fake American cities, you know, or not entire cities. But yeah, you kind of like these towns where they would, they would train and, you know, weren't get, get,

9:39get kind of acclimated to the, the operational environment in, in the West. I haven't seen any direct evidence of it, but I mean, it's certainly, certainly possible that, you know, yeah, that some of that stuff was set up. Yeah. Well, I mean, it seems, it's conceivable too. I mean, if you, American military bases have like these little miniature kind of cities set up sometimes to run. Oh, yeah. Drills and stuff. So it seems plausible. But the reason I asked about the age is because we get the impression that, you know, they're, they're chosen kind of young, but then as the season progresses, they start, they come up with this idea to recruit page at an even younger age. Yeah. Because they want to have a, somebody place perhaps in the DOD or the, the CIA, because they're hoping this, the page will go into that kind of work. Right. The second, it's an idea. Yeah. Exactly. Was that a real thing or was that something they made up in the show? You know, there's, there's no, there's no official or reported cases of that happening. What I would say is

10:44it's not, it's not totally impossible. I mean, there, there, you know, there's lots of, you know, the, because illegal is for the most part, they, they, they do operate best in pairs in the center, Moscow center, the KGB, they like, you know, they liked to, I mean, I'm sure it's the same with the SVR, but they, they like to put them as spousal pairs and, you know, place them in the target country because that means they can support each other in operations. And also, you know, just psychologically and emotionally, right. You know, have someone there to share the burden. Did you get, did you, did you watch the whole series? Yeah. Oh yeah. Okay. Remember the, the Tuan character, the, the Asian guy that they had recruited and she had to give him that sermon, like, like, you're not going to make it through this unless you find a mate, you know, you need to ask for some of their support. Yeah. Yeah. So you need someone to lean on. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That was interesting and, and very true. In general. Yeah. And also with, but with the second

11:52generation, illegal's idea, I would say that, you know, it might have happened, right? You know, that it's certainly possible. I mean, you had the latest big case with, with the illegals you had here in the United States was in 2010. And some of those couples had children, you know, who, who were teenagers. And so, you know, they had to make that choice. Well, do I stay here? Do I go back? But it didn't look like they, they specifically were being groomed for, you know, and, you know, placement at that time. But all the same, that doesn't mean that it didn't happen. There was a case back in, I think it was around the 70s that this, this came out from the Mitrokin archive. But there was a kid in the, I think it was in the United States, but there was a kid who, I think he had communist parents or something and he was reading Kim Phil Bees autobiography,

12:57My Secret War. And he got really excited about the idea of becoming, you know, a Soviet agent. And, and they even sent out, you know, they even gotten contact with the KGB. But then, then, you know, ultimately they, they got cold feet or whatever and decided not to go through with, you know, the full training. But, yeah, kind of, kind of interesting. So, so there's, it's, it's not totally excluded that, that because we, there, the cases we know of are only those that, that have been, you know, been blown basically by Western counterintelligence services or the ones that, that Russia has revealed or that, you know, the Soviet Union, the United States has revealed. And, they're, you know, it, it, it just remains to be seen. There are other successful cases we

14:02don't know about where that, that might have well had. Okay. Interesting. With the Amics Gold card, life can feel even more rewarding wherever it takes you. They're in five times points at prepaid hotels, booked online through Amics Travel. Then, turn your trip into something unforgettable. With access to over $500 in annual value on select dining and travel purchases, the gold card rewards you for making the most of the experiences you live for. Learn more and apply today at americanexpress.com slash explore dash gold. Terms apply. Yamabah Resort and Casino at Sandman Well brings exciting nights of music and comedy to the stage. Seek country music superstar Miranda Lambert, November 12th. Don't miss inspirational singer, songwriter Lauren Degel, November 21st and experience the quick wit of Matt Reif, December 5th and 6th. Tickets on sale now at Yamabah Theatre dot com. Only at Yamabah Resort and Casino, California's number one entertainment destination. You in must be 21 to enter.

15:08So now in this, in the, the, the, the other main character other than the family is, of course, agent Beeman, who is the FBI counterintelligence guy. Yeah. What would the FBI at that time period? Now, we know they would have been like the Aldrich Ames type cases. Was that, that was 80s, wasn't it? Yeah, yeah, that was, that was the 1980s. Okay, so would, would they have known about the illegal's operation in the 80s? Like, like, Beeman eventually figures out. They, they would have known, yeah, they would have known about illegal certainly, you know, I mean, the, the first big illegal caught in the, in the cold war period was in the late 50s, Rudolph Abel in New York. And, and he was a very big fish. And, you know, he was, he was basically the head of a network that extended across the United States, you know, from East Coast. And then there was, there was, I guess, there was a residency, an illegal residency in Chicago and one on the West Coast. And, he was caught, but he didn't really,

16:14you know, he didn't give it, he was an interesting character because he was, he was from a German family that settled in England and then went back to Soviet Russia. And so he spoke English, German and Russian all without an accent. So, and, and his name wasn't actually Abel, it was William Fisher. So, so Fisher slash Abel was, was, he was exposed as a result of a betrayal by, by one of his assistants in a legal name, Reyno Hayhannon, who was of Finnish ancestry, but he's a Soviet illegal, but he, he was an alcoholic and he, he wasn't doing his job right, working for Abel. And so Abel sent him back and before he reached the Soviet Union, he defected in Paris to the United States. So, that exposed Abel and Abel was on the run for a little while,

17:19but then they eventually, they caught up to him in New York. Now, and to be clear, to be clear for those listening, because people might say, well, what about Alfred Rosenberg? And this, this is different than despise, right? This is a specifically elite, specific type, yeah, specific type of intelligence officer, not just agents, you know, that are being run by the intelligence officer, but illegal is our elite intelligence officers. So, yeah, the FBI, the FBI knew about, you know, the illegal's program and, and, and, and yeah, they had a very, they, they knew that these guys were very, very hard to detect and catch, and it really is like the, the needle and the haystack analogy. That's, yeah, that's pretty much what they're up against. So, the way that we see Philip and Elizabeth recruiting assets in the film, is this exaggerate, or in the show? Is it exaggerated, or is that kind of pretty much how it went down? I mean, would they have been making those things? I would say, I would say it's certainly exaggerated and, you know, kind of stylized, but, but there are lots of good moments and lots of good examples

18:20of recruitment and they, they show a lot of, you know, recruitment techniques and use of, use of different hooks, you know, in order to, you know, tell like methods of assessment and then, you know, ultimate recruitment. Of course, you know, everything's kind of sped up and, yeah, you know, may, you know, everything's ultra-sexy or violent. Right. But no, that, yeah, it is, it is a, and that regard, you know, dealing like running agents and aspects of assessment and recruitment, talent spotting, that, you know, that, that's pretty remarkably accurate in a sense of showing the principles of it, you know, everything's kind of sexed up, but all the same, it's still, they do a good job of that. Yeah, one thing that is interesting is I think in the essay that you wrote is that, that somebody couldn't be too much of a skirt chaser, right? That's one of the qualifications in the illegal training essay that you have.

19:24But that's interesting because, yeah, you might have self-control. Yeah, well that's okay, because in the film, or in the show, like they're literally running like multiple sexual operations at like every turn and then they're killing somebody and then they're coming home and making dinner and making cookies and it's like all night. Yeah, it's like, yeah, how would you have the energy to do that first? Yeah, no, their operational tempo is just like insane. Yeah, they're just like, they're, they're super spies on steroids, you know, like, yeah, to do all that stuff. And the other thing about illegals is that in the target country, they might, they might be recruiting, but that's a very delicate thing, and they most often would be running valuable agents. Recruitment, recruitment can, you know, potentially can open you up, can make you vulnerable to exposure. So one thing that would happen is that the center, KGB Center and Moscow would send out officers specifically tasked with

20:25completing a recruitment. Once they had been, you know, assessed, they've been spotted, they've been assessed in what was called developed, then an officer, you know, with, you know, very specific skills for closing that deal for making it happen would come in and finish the job and get them recruited, you know, as part of the network. So, so they're, so like said, so, so take Philip and Elizabeth, would the majority of their work not be so, I mean, would they have been doing any of the swallows kind of work at all, or would that be difficult to maintain? Yeah, I mean, maybe possibly, yeah, maybe once in a while, yeah, it's, you know, if, if a specific officer had that, you know, that kind of talent, per se, but again, it's a very, it can be very risky,

21:27and it can be, it can be very, it can open you up to exposure. So that's, you know, they would most, I mean, the network they manage, they would have, you know, they would have a couple assistance, and you know, maybe they could set something up through there, or, you know, for these specific recruitment operations, you know, again, Moscow Center would send, it was actually, it was the, it was the first department within Directorate S was, you know, this special reserve of illegals, who did shorter term assignments across the world for Moscow, you know, they'd be sent out on these missions, complete them, and then return, you know, so instead of, you know, the longer term, because, you know, an illegal pair might be in their country, in their assigned country, for 20 years, 25 years, you know, they would, they would be that entrenched, they would be that

22:29deeply rooted in their target. So, so, so, who would they be mainly seeking to be in, in the circles of, like, in the first season, you know, it's all about getting next to Casper wine barters, you know, study to get, yeah, bugged, bugged, yeah, I mean, is that the kind of thing that they would have been interested in, or would have been, have been trying to befriend, you know, people like, in some high Reagan cabin, or something like that? Yeah, yeah, I think, I think both, I think that's, that is legitimate, you know, the, you know, kind of the operation to, to bugged study, but, but yeah, the, I think, but again, that, that, that can certainly be risky, you know, and, uh, yeah, so the, the entire story with that, you know, it's like, you know, a couple people always get killed every episode, every other episode, you know, and, you know, that, that's just, there's body stacked everywhere, man. Yeah, the bodies are really, yeah, the body counts huge, and that, that's kind of out of the rum hall, you couldn't do that in real life. Yeah, it'll get you noticed, or, there

23:34will be this, you know, I mean, you have these illegals running around DC, just, you know, wasting people left and right, like, it's kind of, yeah, it's going to get you. That's it. But, but that marriage meant to my next question, which is that, I think, I asked you, when I was watching the show, I texted you, and you said something about that there would have been a separate director, that would have been actually been in charge of the assassinations, and though, yeah, so, but, an individual illegal might have been trained in those kinds of things, but yeah, they were, they were in very special cases, and, you know, that they had, you know, illegals would have specific, I mean, some of them were more, like, more, what's the word, directed towards these tasks than others. Some of them, this was, you know, very much part of the mission. So, so that, that direct action department within director S, was the eighth department, and, you know, before that in the

24:3760s, 70s, it was called, called department V, then it became the eighth department, and the eighth department was where, Voipel, Voipel is the, was the KGB's, special unit, Spisnaz unit, and Voipel had, you know, these really badass special operators who could speak, you know, several languages, and, you know, perform, you know, a variety of high-risk direct action missions, you know, intelligence get like deeper connoisseurs, Sabbath-boggia assassinations, all that stuff. In Voipel, if there were those types of missions, Voipel would be assigned to do it. But at the same time, you know, there's not really... Yamaha Resort and Casino at Sandman Well brings exciting nights of music and comedy to the stage. Seek Country Music Superstar Miranda Lambert, November 12th. Don't miss inspirational singer, songwriter Lauren Degel, November 21st, and experience the quick wit of Matt Rife, December 5th and 6th.

25:39Tickets on sale now at Yamavath Theatre dot com. Only at Yamavar Resort and Casino, California's number one entertainment destination. You in, must be 21 to enter. There's not really evidence that, you know, I mean, there aren't a lot of, like the whole KGB CIA war they were assassinating each other in the Americans. I think it was a few seasons in seasons in. But that didn't happen simply because that raises the stakes enormously. If you have, if you're sending hit squads into each other's capital countries, you know, that's basically what would happen before World War III is that, you know, Voipel would be called in or, you know, the US equivalent, like, you know, the US had Delta Force and those were kind of the special missions units that would have been tasked with infiltrating the other side. So,

26:43but there were definitely Lilos who had those special skills, you know, like Sabotajra assassination. And they were there to help facilitate infiltration of those Voipel guys, you know, into the West at what the KGB called Day X, right? Or hour X, meaning right before World War III pops off, you know, they'd be going into, in there to assassinate, you know, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Which comes up in that episode when they don't, there's that, there's that episode where they think that this has been triggered, right? And then, Elizabeth's like assembling her big ass sniper gun, and she's ready to go and like shoot at Reagan or Casper one. Yeah, I think that was the, they made an interesting episode out of that out of the Reagan assassination in 81, yeah, with John B. Hinckley. Yeah, yeah, where, yeah, the KGB wasn't sure

27:44what happened. And they were, you know, they were wondering if it was a coup. They actually wonder if they're going to. Yeah, exactly. And it kind of was. But yeah, by the bushes. But yeah, they were worried that it was, it was a coup and they were of course on hair trigger. We're, and during that time, that really was the case. The KGB under Andropov was very, very concerned with the US actions around the world and the US nuclear stance. And, you know, in the early 80s, it, it, it came very close to conflict between the, so you, you have a article on that too. That's about how. Yeah, yeah. One of the articles on the break of Tuesday or something that's about, it's about, you know, KGB spits knots about the pointful and, you know, World War Three. And what, what would have happened if, you know, there are these exercises in 1983 called Able Archer in November of 83 where they're the NATO nuclear command exercises that the Soviets thought

28:50might have been a prelude to launching a preemptive first strike on the Soviet Union. So, they were, they were, they were very, very concerned with that. And I wouldn't, I wouldn't doubt for a minute that, you know, they, they probably had some assets for positioned in the West, just in case, you know, to, you know, start, you know, you know, sabotaging power networks and, you know, going, going after heads of state and, you know, major, major industrialists and people like this in case, in case that was, what was going down. Thank, thank God that, you know, no one. So, no, I don't pull the trigger on me. Yeah. A couple of things we see in the show that come up in other movies that we see all the time. I don't think you saw it, but there's a sequence in that, that propaganda movie Red Sparrow with Jay, Jay Law where she's taught her sex operative stuff,

29:57right? She's kind of trained to be this kind of, to use the, for spring, spring, my conspiracy terminology, a beta sex kid. Yeah. So, and then we also see a similar kind of traumatization with Elizabeth where she's taught to be, she's traumatized when she's raped and then the guy, you know, is, is training her to be an assassin and to fight and, you know, it's like, well, now you can use your rage because I raped you now, you can use your rage to be a killer and all this stuff. So, what I'm wondering is that how real would the Swallows training have been? I know you were saying them probably not so much for one of the illegals, but the assassin training might have been, how real for, for agents or operatives, not even just the illegals, is what we see in films in regard to like the sex operative type stuff or the assassin stuff. There was some of that. But it was kept separate from, you know, normal intelligence training.

31:01It's kind of unclear. During the, during the 30s, the NKVD was known to use prostitutes, you know, kind of have this special stable of prostitutes that they, they used for that specific purpose and then not only prostitutes and kind of girls who were on the fringes of society, but also ballerinas from the, from the Bolshe way, right, that they were very popular with foreign diplomats and VIPs from abroad. And so they, they could get information. Yeah, they could get information. They could make lots of introductions and, you know, potentially be used in those honeypot type operations. Yeah. Now, that's interesting because we always hear from, like you watch these YouTube videos and the CIA person is always like, well, that's always what Russians did.

32:02We would never engage in those kinds of things. Oh, no. Oh, yeah, it was like Epstein's Island. Yeah, we would never engage in that in the West. Right. So it was there a CIA version. I mean, obviously any country wants to place their spies in the other country, but was there a CIA version of the illegal type of thing? Uh, interestingly, no. What the, what the CIA has, has had and, and currently had, they have the knock program non-official cover. But typically that involves multinational corporations and people working in multinational corporations who will be planted there as undercover CIA officers. Right. You know, like Valerie Plame. Yeah, she was the knock, you know, so I mean, typically it's Americans. And certainly, certainly they're I'm sure there are foreign citizens too. But never, never did any Western countries, United States. What do you think that is? Why do you think they didn't do an illegal type thing? I think it's a cultural thing.

33:07You know, I think, I think the Russians developed a system that worked for them of, of kind of this, you know, deep infiltration and taking on entirely, you know, the identity of another, of another, you know, an individual from another part of the world, you know, a citizen of another country, of another nation. And, and it made detection, you know, a thousand times harder. Now, of course, we live in the days of, you know, biometrics and, but, but they're, I mean, directorate S is still active. And so they've, they've adapted. And, you know, I imagine they're making it work. But yeah, it's, it's, it's kind of a different world than, you know, the 20th century, but nonetheless, you know, it's, it's, it's a, it's a kind of an arms race. It always is between, you know, all these escalating technologies of evasion and detection. So, where were we going? What was the original

34:07question? Yes. Well, let me ask you this. During this period when, you know, Beamans trying to voice the, the plans and, uh, foil the plans of the illegals and the 80s, how many illegals would there have been? Because I think by season five, we learned that there was another guy in Chicago. Yeah. Interestingly, who was connected to their network. Um, Philip and Elizabeth didn't know who he was, but the FBI eventually found that guy in Chicago in the show. Um, so if there's one in, uh, you know, DC area and there's one in Chicago, I mean, that suggests that what there were, how many roughly you think there would have been in this in the area? Uh, I would, I would say, you know, maybe, maybe, I mean, it's, it's not that large. Maybe a couple dozen at most, you know, probably, probably below that number, but yeah, with the, with the, with the, around 20, with the primary targets that they were interested in being around, uh, be governmental or also corporate. Uh, depending, um, there, there were, there were also, you know, corporate targets and, and,

35:13well, that comes up in the show. I forgot that. That comes up in the show because they, they recruit that guy that works at like Northrop Grumman, I think. Remember that? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, defense defense contractors were big, were big targets, especially for, for, uh, you know, officers who were doing, uh, science and technology, like doing scientific technical, technological intelligence. That was, that was a big thing. Um, and, uh, let's see, they also go for generals a couple times in the show. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. To recruit. Yeah. I mean, it's, and that's, you know, that's not, um, I know, at the very least there have been kernels, you know, who have been, uh, you know, caught as spies, you know, here, here in the, in the West, you know, it's so, so yeah, that's not, uh, what, that's not a realm of possible. One thing they do, I think in season two or three is the, they steal, uh, what looks like the plans for ARP and that, which will be basically the internet eventually. Yeah. When Philip and,

36:16Philip's look at it, he's like, I don't know what it is. It's some kind of advanced computer thing. And he has to get his buddy to bring him into a professor undercover that he's doing research and gets the professor to explain it to him. He's like, oh, yeah, well, it's a new way to, uh, convey information. Uh, so he says, oh, what is it? It's, it's a future. Um, were there real, uh, or something close to this, approximating to this where, I mean, we obviously would know the, uh, Rosenberg's had Soviet stole the, the plans, the bomb. What, were there any, was there anything like this in the 80s? Uh, you know, there, there's the situation of the, they wanted to figure out what they were painting the, uh, stealth bombers with. Yeah. One, they figured out the internet. Was this kind of stuff being stolen like that in the 80s? Oh, yeah, for sure. Yeah, those were high priority targets. Absolutely. And, uh, the Soviets, you know, they, they were, they were also developing their own type of internet. Um, so yeah, they, they, they wanted, um, you know, what the West had in that regard so they could, they could replicate it and build on it. Um,

37:19you know, just to, I mean, certainly, certainly, uh, in the, in the Cold War, especially, you know, scientific, technical, technological, espionage, um, was, was a big deal. And within the first chief directorate, you had, you had a directorate devoted specifically to that. It was, it was, uh, you know, uh, directorate X. Yeah. Yeah. So that was, that was that played a role, a big role, and, you know, they were, they were looking into things like, you know, internet communications, artificial intelligence. All these things were, uh, you know, they, they had to, uh, you know, stuff that's, you know, coming online today, you know, was, was kind of being germinated back then. Right. And yeah. So, and, you know, in some areas, in some areas, they're behind in some areas, they're, they're, they're ahead, you know, I mean, you can look at, uh, hypersonic weapons, you know, the Russians are way ahead in that, and they, and they kept out of secret, uh, you know, for many years. So, and now, fully, that those, those weapons are coming online. And all the sun,

38:22uh, it's the West that, you know, is, is behind on that. So, now one, one thing in the show that, that, that was constantly kind of, I was wondering about was, so we know in the first few episodes, Beeman gets suspicious, and he starts snooping around, uh, Philip, and Elizabeth garage, and he's looking around to see if there's anything out of, out of order. But, but Beeman never thinks to check into their travel agency. Now, in my mind, in my mind, that if, if you were suspicious that this, this, this couple was a, like, using some kind of front, I mean, a travel agency would have been pretty obvious. And I mean, yeah, it's pretty, it's a pretty good front though, you know, I mean, it enables a lot of, if you're Beeman, if you're Beeman, wouldn't you think, wouldn't you look into the travel agency? Oh yeah. He doesn't look into it until like season six. They have like a, like a crappy early version of Google, and he gets on like this green screen, and he types it up. And there's like, there's no reference to their stuff. Anyway, I just always thought that was a little odd. And the other thing that was odd was how easy it was for Clark to, um, get close to Martha. Now, Martha's

39:29position was pretty sensitive, given that she had access to pretty much all the files in the FBI counterintelligence section. And so Clark was able to seduce her like that. Now, I know it's a TV show, but I'm just wondering, do you think that they would have had a lax view of their secretaries at this time, would they have just not even conceived that somebody would be trying to get that close to the secretary? Um, I don't think so. I, they, they, they definitely knew about it. But it's not, it's not inconceivable. In, inconceivable that that would happen. Uh, let's, let's go back to the first one about the travel agency. So, so with illegals, they, they were expected to basically create their own business without, without financial help from, from Moscow. You know, so that they had to, they had to create a business. I mean, you know, of course, there were, there were failures in that regard. And sometimes they needed, you know, extra assistance. But, uh, they were, they typically were tasked with starting a business and making it function and

40:36run at a profit so that that would provide a good cover for, for their, for their operations. And because of that, if, if, if, if that's what they did say with the travel agency, if Beeman looked into it and couldn't find anything on toward, you know, with finances, you know, or just, you know, financial flows and money, like everything looked like it checked out. Well, that's, that's the way they would do it. You know, so, so there was an example of, um, uh, in illegal name Conan Malodi and Malodi, um, was caught by British counterintelligence in the early 60s and he was running an agent at the, uh, at, at British submarine base, uh, poor, I think, near, important down, but, um, important down, I think is the chemical weapons facility. Anyway, he was running it, uh, a, a British naval officer. Um, and Malodi was a Russian who spent

41:37time in the United States when he was a kid and then went back to the Soviet Union. This was before World War II, then during World War II, he was in, in reconnaissance, doing reconnaissance missions, intelligence type stuff and then he was trained to be an illegal and he went to the, uh, he went to, uh, the UK. Oh, he went to Canada and then he went to the UK. So that's how he kind of created his identity is Gordon Lonsdale, uh, this Canadian guy, Canadian businessman. And Gordon Lonsdale, uh, I think he was a, uh, he sold, uh, he had a business selling, um, slot machines, something like that. And, and he made a lot of money off it, so much so that he became really successful. Um, and he might have become a millionaire even though, but, but, uh, his, it, it became very profitable and, and, uh, you know, again, it, it made him, uh, you know, look like a solid member of the community. So, so they had a, they had to kind of attain some status in the community.

42:41That's what I'm, I'm curious about. Yeah. And how would, how would you get next to like these high level policy people? Yeah, you can't just do it straight off the bat. You got to really, you got to become rooted in the country. It takes years, right? And, and, and you got to, you got to develop contacts. People have to know you. And you, you basically have to do everything in the open so that, yeah. Uh, if someone, you know, if, if someone asks about you, then, then, uh, that person can say, oh, yeah, he's, he's doing this and this. And I, you know, they, they know everything about you seemingly. And, uh, and that just, that kind of strengthens your credentials. Um, yeah. And then, and then was, was the second question. Uh, um, we had the, the travel agency and then, yeah, travel agency. And then, um, already forgot what I, no, that's okay. Um, um, oh, I was asking about Martha that, that seems like they, it seems like they would have had more,

43:44like eyes on Martha. They would have been more curious about her. Yeah. And, you know, yeah, those to pull, I mean, I don't know when they started, but, you know, those employees have to take polygraphs. Yeah, that's a good idea. Yeah. Yeah. But, um, regular intervals, that, that has a, that has a long history, um, going back in the Cold War, uh, the, specifically in post-war Germany, uh, you had, um, a generation of woman that had lost millions of men. So you had, you had this, uh, um, proportion of woman that, that were, uh, you know, the, the population of men didn't come anywhere near to matching them. So there are a lot of lonely women. So in, in, uh, West Germany, after the war, you had these women who were secretaries in, um, say, uh, NATO or in the, um, you know, the, uh,

44:46sorry, I'm thinking, I'm thinking in Russian right now. Uh, well, you had an article about one of those, uh, Romeo's, yeah, exactly. Yeah, operation. Yeah, I think it's called, it's something like, Moscow's Romeo spy or something like that. So they had what were called Romeo's or they're also known as Ravens, these men, um, and, you know, women were swallows, right? But, but the men were known as Romeo's or Ravens. And so the KGB and Eastern intelligence would, you know, send their agents or officers to, uh, romance and seduce these women, uh, in order to gain access to that intelligence. You know, say this woman was, you know, it's like a woman was a secretary in the West German intelligence service, right? Galen's organization or the BFB was counterintelligence. Well, uh, they could gain access to those secrets, you know, by, by, uh, you know, getting her to fall in love. And that, that's what's interesting is typically that's, that's very much based on practical

45:50psychology where there's a phrase, men get and forget. So, you know, with, with women, you know, it's kind of like, I, you know, and then they, they move on. Well, woman give and forgive, you know, and women are more likely to fall in love and, you know, create emotional attachment and that enables, uh, the intelligence service, service working that target to, you know, get them to hand over yeah, secret materials now and it can be done under, you know, it can be, they don't have to say out right, you know, I'm from the KGB or I'm from the, you know, I'm from the, the Stasi, right? They, you know, it might be, oh, you know, we're from, they could, they could pose as the brits or who, you know, whoever, yeah. One thing that, uh, I was another thing I was curious about, which seemed a little outlandish was the, I think in two instances, they sneak onto bases. Is this really plausible to sneak onto a military base? I mean, uh, that are little, the illegals would be doing that. Yeah, there are cases of that, um, but it's more,

46:55it's more, um, it's not as, usually it's not as, uh, what's the, I mean, you know, outright cloak and dagger, right? Like they're, you know, they're dressed in like black and they got face paint on. Um, there, I mean, there are some cases where, you know, say during the early 1960s, the KGB had an agent in Paris, an American sergeant who was, uh, transferring, uh, you know, highly sensitive top secret information on, um, American nuclear war plants. And so they, they had to, you know, organize this elaborate operation where, uh, you know, he would, um, you know, go into these safes in a, in a hardened bunker. And then, uh, you know, it was like in the middle of the night and then pass them to the KGB officer outside and, and all that had to be done within, you know, so it was kind of like mission impossible style stuff, you know, everything had to be, uh, just right in terms of, uh, timing, you know, placement of vehicles and things like that,

47:59so that nothing, uh, sort of all went off without a hitch. But then, you know, there's another episode that just came out recently where a, I think, an American, um, sorry, there was an American airbase in Spain and there was, there was a Soviet illegal who, uh, was posing as an artist in the town nearby. Yeah, and he, and he managed to, uh, he managed to get on the base, like, by making friends with, you know, some of the, some of the military guys. Yeah. And they invited him on the base and he, and he, you know, he got to like, just ask them some questions and he actually gained like some very valuable intelligence about a specific political crisis at the time, you know, I think he had to do with like, um, you know, the coming, uh, death of Franco and what would happen in the, in the country, you know, so, so he was, he was, you know, just, just by making friends and, you know, he got invited on the base and, you know, was able to have conversations with officers where, yeah, you know, it gains them good intelligence. Okay, so yeah, that, yeah, I mean, in the show, it's like, there's the instance where it's, uh, the, the Navy seal guy who's gay, who, uh, yeah,

49:05they blackmail him because they find out that he's gay and then they, yeah, I mean, and that, that really, that's something, but I'm thinking of, so like, they sneak in through a, uh, shit truck, right, the truck that like, yeah, empties out all the porta-potties and then they get on, and they're taking pictures of the, of the contras that are being trained. Yeah. And then they, you know, they have to end up killing four or five people to get out of there, but, um, was there a situation where, I mean, I know that the story in the 80s of the contras being trained was leaked, but, right, that was, that was like journalist, so-called, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, yeah, I know there's like Gary, whatever, whatever's the name of this. Yeah, in the 90s, yeah. Um, yeah, the, the, uh, I'm not sure what exactly the, the KGB, I mean, I'm sure they, they knew a lot at the time. Uh, they were working both with the Cubans and the Nicaraguan's on that and, and the Cubans, the DGI, their intelligence service was very good. Um, and, uh, the Soviets probably had a very good

50:13idea of what the KG, or what, what the CIA was up to. Um, but yeah, I don't know about, uh, about, you know, yes, I mean, I, you know, sneak it onto the base and having to like, you know, assassinate a few people. You know, it's, uh, style. Now, the, uh, do you remember the woman that, that they wonder if she's a triple agent? Uh, she's the fake, she's the fact, the factor who loves candy bars and goes on TV and starts yapping about how much she hated Russia and she loves candy bars. Uh, and then they're suspicious of her that she is still, Beeman thinks that she's still working for the Russians because now she has access to all these different people, right? Because, uh, it affected. Were there any, uh, public high profile people that they trotted out like this that were fake defectors that you could think of? Um, as far as fake ones, uh, hope high profile, I can't think of

51:16any, but, but there were fake defectors. Um, and there were even, and these kind of operations were few and four between, but even sometimes the KGB would, uh, run these fake defector operations. Like, I have a book by a guy named, uh, Maximus, who was a KGB officer in Canada and he was pretending to be, uh, in, uh, he's pretending to be an agent, a recruited agent of the Canadian security intelligence service, uh, or, yeah, or at RCMP and then it was CSIS. But anyway, uh, of Canadian counterintelligence and, uh, he was, uh, you know, he was feeding them disinformation and, you know, he was, he was kind of arranging for his supposed defection in the future, you know, in the meantime, stringing them along. So yeah, they're definitely were, uh, fake, uh, these kind of, you know, uh, plants, you know, that were sent, you know, specifically to, uh, you know, for one reason or another, it's,

52:19it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, a really funny version of this where a couple times they've dressed up like their CIA operatives and they go and talk to the Mujahideen guy. Remember that when they show up in the car and they're meeting with the Mujahideen guy and it's like, where are we meeting at a car? Yeah. Yeah. And then they, they do that to the Navy, to a navy guy, to a general and then, um, sometimes they just show up as, as if they're like some, uh, CPS worker, you know, like she goes into show up as she's just some government, nobody work. Yeah. Was that a pretty common thing that somebody in that kind of a position would have done is just to play the role of some, I think on occasion, it could have happened, but, but the, you know, the closer you get to, you know, posing as, you know, say, uh, you know, a CIA officer or something like that. More dangerous. You know, things get really risky and, uh, you know, you, you are in danger, you are in greater danger of, uh, you know, getting exposed. But, but yeah, you know, they, they had, they certainly had the old little directorate, they had an entire department, that was the second

53:19department, you know, dealing with documentation, you know, false identities. Yeah. And that's good. You know, that included, yeah, not only the identity that they would take on as their main one in the target country, but also, you know, for, for these other contingent operations, you know, uh, posing as other people as well. Now, one thing I want to ask you about that comes up in the show is, uh, the show is relationship to religion, um, particularly the character of Pastor Tim and his relationship to, to the world council churches. Now, this is interesting because in the west, the world council churches is oftentimes during Cold War propaganda stuff portrayed as a big Soviet thing. But then with, when you read deeper into its origins and you read the Rockefeller, uh, uh, Bographies and memoirs, they brag about how they basically created this whole institution. Yeah. So we have two competing narratives of what the world council church is. A giant communist Soviet thing where he or a Rockefeller thing and what I've come to realize is that this kind of a

54:19big confab would have been a place where both the Soviets and the CIA, the west, would have been interested in having people planted correct as that. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Everyone was, you know, using it for their own heads. Yeah. Yeah. So it was kind of a kind of an arena where they could, you know, seek, seek some leverage and, you know, get, get some benefit, you know, extract something. But yeah, to say it was all just, oh, yeah, it's all just a big communist front. Well, you know, again, look who created it. Yeah. And then it begins to, we begin to introduce the character of Gorbachev in the show, uh, not directly, but indirectly because there's the, the idea of their opening up. And Philip and Elizabeth have been in the US for 20 years and they don't even know what the situation in Russia is like. Ironically, there's a scene that's kind of funny where when they're reminiscing about what Russia's like, they're watching movies. So they're like watching old Russian

55:22movies, the, with, with Claudia the handler to reminisce what, which is like the way we think about it in America. Oh, well, you want to know it was like 20 years ago, watch a movie, right? Um, so that there's this constant kind of, um, picturing of Soviet Russia, really diametrically opposed. It's like there's this dialectic that's constantly passed. Absolutely. And then we start to realize how similar beamen is to, uh, olig, right, beamen and olig are kind of like flip sides and they actually become friends. Um, yeah. So the show also has this dialectic, uh, at work. And then we, we get introduced to the period of perestroika. And I didn't know this until you mentioned in our last interview was this, this thing about the, the Kuhl against Gorbachev. This comes up in the, at the end of the show, uh, you said this is 91, though, it's not actually in, in 1987, but they squished. Right. Right. Can you tell us about that and what, what the reason for all that was? Yeah. Well, um, there, there was, um, growing concern within the, the KGB and the party old guard.

56:30So to say that the Gorbachev was basically selling the Soviet Union down the river, which he kind of was. And, you know, I mean, you know, like, uh, you know, less than a decade later, he'd be in pizza commercials, right? So, um, but at the same, yeah, yeah, at the same. Uh, so yeah, at that, at that time, uh, in the late 80s, early 90s, you start, you having, you, there's, uh, kind of this movement by that old guard to counteract, um, some of Gorbachev's initiatives. And this ultimately results in 1990, August 1991, which, uh, with something called the, uh, state committee for the state of emergency in Russian, Gukha-Trupa. And, um, um, they basically, uh, took over power for a short time and put Gorbachev under house arrest.

57:33Um, and, but the coup failed and they were, they were pretty incompetent. And, you know, that, you can watch old films of the, uh, the, the Gukha-Trupa and, you know, the kind of the, the old videos of them speaking to the, to the Soviet public, these broadcasts. And, you know, like, some of them were like drunk. It was just very, it was very sad, you know, so, so it was, it was kind of the, you saw the, uh, kind of the degradation, the collapse of the empire and, and kind of just, uh, a demoralization, um, you know, so there's no one really believe in communism anymore. Does, does Gorbachev represent, um, just that final phase before Yeltsin comes in and they, they've looted the country as he, is he, was there a Western conspiracy involved in Gorbachev, or was he just kind of, um, the end result? It, a lot, a lot of KGB veterans will tell you, yes,

58:36there was conspiracy that there was, there, rather that Western intelligence services were running, um, psychological operations against the Soviet Union. And also had certain agents in place, you know, within the Soviet power structure, structure, uh, around Gorbachev, and that they were, basically facilitating this collapse, right? And facilitating the end of the Soviet Union. Yeah, there, there, there's, there's, there's lots of, uh, KGB guys who basically say something to that effect. And, you know, they're not, uh, I mean, you know, you look at certain results, you, you would have to say, yeah, there, there probably was something. I mean, Ames really, he, he, was a major, major Soviet within, uh, the KGB, and also the GRU, but at the same time, Ames, you know, by say the, uh, later 80s, I think early 90s Ames was already, you know, kind of being shifted away

59:42from that. So it's not, it's not other realm of possibility that CIA, you know, was running other assets that Ames didn't know about, you know, so, um, yeah, so that, you know, that, that period is, is especially, uh, that, that's kind of the, uh, you know, you started falling apart. Yeah, that meeting at Malta seems, you know, pretty important with Gorbachev and the meeting to pushing Gorbachev and, and Malta, yeah, yeah, and, uh, you know, there was this notion that, you know, there would be, uh, an equitable settlement between the US and the Soviet Union and that NATO wouldn't expand East, but of course that didn't happen. And, um, you know, the, uh, Bush's, uh, New World Order, that was, that was kind of, uh, exactly right. Uh, and then, and then Gorbachev interestingly sort of transitions into being fully on board with all the United Nations and even new age type stuff. He, he, yeah, he's in a, yeah, new age type, uh, you know, like Marie Strong, sponsor initiatives,

1:00:45and yeah, uh, UN programs and, and really because he's gotten nowhere else to go as far as, uh, you know, job wise, no one in the Soviet Union or is knowing everyone in Russia hates him because he, not because, not because he ended communism. I mean, it was, it wasn't about communism, it was about, uh, him basically collapsing Russia as a great power and collapsing the state. And that's, that's what they hate him for, you know, so, uh, you know, when, when he's, you know, he speaks today, you know, it's, yeah, sometimes he, you know, comes out with some new age type BS. Sometimes he doesn't, you know, when he's, he'll say, you know, pretty sensible things on form policy, but at the same time, Russians aren't gonna listen, I mean, they're not gonna listen to him because, uh, he, he failed them when, when, you know, at the critical moment, you know, he, he let him, he let them down, uh, egregiously. So, yeah, they, they don't like him, needless to say, yeah. We, we see, uh, the interesting scenes where Elizabeth, uh, has made contacts with the Black Panther

1:01:51Bro, um, what, what the Soviets mainly have focused on cultivating, uh, contacts and, or assets, in leftist groups only, or would they have tried to find, uh, contacts in other groups as well? I think they certainly would have looked, uh, I mean, they, they, they, they definitely, they focused, you know, on leftist type piece movements and, you know, they, they had, um, you know, some, they, they certainly took a, took a look at, you know, the civil rights type movements and the, you know, the Black liberation movements, um, but it wasn't, it wasn't some, you know, deep partnership or anything like that. They, they, they, or receiving the FBI had, uh, those domestic movements well under its control as far as, you know, not letting them get out of hand. Um, and, um, through Coentail, you know, yeah, Coentail Pro, you know, uh, and that, that, that really is a matter of, you know, you know, home territory, you know, home, home turf, you know,

1:02:54it's, uh, that, that's why, um, you know, Soviet Union never really made, you know, never, never really devoted that much effort to cultivating that deeply, uh, those, those types of, organizations, but, um, they, they, uh, you know, for the most part, they were, they were looking at cultivating those movements for, you know, propaganda purposes and, you know, PR type actions, things like that, uh, kind of, uh, following the, um, you know, getting, getting in line with, you know, kind of the, uh, the Soviet view of things, uh, that would, you know, kind of be manifested in their, in their, uh, headlines, but, and, and their, their official pronouncements, but, uh, I haven't seen much to say that the KGB was looking at, you know, say right-wing organizations, but I wouldn't, I wouldn't, uh, you know, I mean, any, any good intelligence service is just,

1:03:58I don't want to keep all bases covered. So I, you know, and especially with, uh, think tanks, you know, they were, they were interested in infiltrating think tanks like Hudson Institute. Exactly. Uh, yeah, things like that. So that, that would kind of be, because that, what they saw there was proximity to power. Yeah, exactly. Um, that, uh, one thing I did want to touch on that we'd not yet was, uh, the, the bio warfare, uh, uh, pestilence warfare, food warfare, uh, that comes up in seasons four and five that relates to one of the illegals who is a worker in a, uh, level three, uh, bio warfare lab. Um, and then they're concerned with getting him into the level four so that he can attain this some kind of super, uh, corunk, uh, Ebola, Ebola type of thing. And then he makes an interesting statement that he's had so many vaccinations that he has all these allergies. That's an interesting phrase that he says. Um, and then he eventually is able to

1:05:01get the rat and all the stuff. Uh, and then we Claudia gives the agents this, the, the handler, this, this narrative that the CIA and the West are attacking the crops in the wheat of the Soviet Union. Um, now is this completely fictional or I know that there were two rival, uh, bio warfare programs, one in the US and one of the Soviet Union, uh, any jacuzon has an interesting chapter on that. Um, is that true about the two rival warfare programs and was there any food pestilence by the way? There, there, there were, yeah, there were both, they both both sides had bio warfare programs. That's true. Um, there was a, uh, KGB defector, um, who came out of Directorate S department 12, which dealt with, um, specifically, uh, getting a hold of Kamen Bio warfare samples from the West. And he, I think he was in New Zealand and he wrote a book. I think it was, I think it's just called

1:06:04the 12th department. I'm not, I can't remember. But, uh, so that, that is real. Um, as far as the US conducting bio warfare against, uh, Soviet Union, uh, I haven't researched that enough. What I can say is, you know, you have campaigns like, uh, where they did similar things to Cuba, um, during, during the Cold War. And, you know, the, the, the CIA was focused on, you know, um, say, you know, uh, damaging the sugar cane harvest or things like that. So that, that was, you know, releasing, uh, you know, kind of like, uh, well, they did that, they didn't be at norm, uh, when they, they would spray the crops of these different, uh, pestilence thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you also, you know, you had the defolence, of course, you know, the jungles, but, uh, you know, as far as the form of chemical warfare against the, um, the, uh, yeah, the local greenery. But, um, the, uh, they're, I don't know about bio warfare, but, you know, you, again, like this,

1:07:10this goes back to, uh, well, what about Chernobyl? I mean, do you believe that that was what, what we're told or, uh, I don't know. There are, there are various theories about that. Some say it was sabotage. Right. Yeah. So, um, maybe, you know, or, or some say it was just, uh, really sloppy behavior, um, by the, uh, the, the personnel on that specific reactor block. So I, I'm not sure about that, but I can tell you of one, you know, catastrophe that was engineered, uh, by Western intelligence was, there was a, uh, it was a Soviet oil pipeline that blew up. I think it was in 1986, and that was a direct result of, uh, disinformation fed by the West to, uh, the KGB's, uh, directorate X, um, their scientific and technological intelligence directorate, and it had to do with a, um, a specific, uh, Soviet KGB colonel, uh, named Vietrov.

1:08:14And he was, he was recruited by French counterintelligence. And, um, and then, uh, he was basically kind of put on loan to the CIA. And, uh, so the CIA was feeding all kinds of disinformation about, um, to kind of, kind of provide an answer to Soviet requests for specific, uh, models of technologies that they wanted. And this included, um, you know, this included stuff in the energy sector. And so, uh, as a result, uh, the, uh, the software that the Soviet Union was using was, uh, deliberately sabotaged and it resulted in an enormous, uh, explosion of an oil pipeline, uh, that could be seen from space. And it was, yeah, it was, it was a disaster. And so that, that's an example of, you know, kind of this, uh, um, you know, economic warfare. Right. Yeah. Exactly. Uh, okay, so,

1:09:23I think I've hit most of the points that I wanted to ask about in, um, my notes here, and then other notes I wrote on your essays. I think I hit most things. Um, is there anything that we left out that you recall that you think is, uh, important to, to bring to the attention of the viewers? Um, well, you know, I, I will be getting around to this, but, but just this year in January, the SVR did release the names of seven new illegals that, um, it, uh, you know, that were within the KGB's first Chief Directorate and the SVR Directorate S, uh, your KGB Directorate S, where, um, you know, they, they haven't been previously unknown. And, and so they, they're revealing bits and pieces of information about them kind of, um, you know, month to month or, you know, kind of coming out with new, uh, you know, new, uh, stories, new regulations. And, um, one of those was a guy I had written about. I'm pretty sure it's the same

1:10:24guy. It's, uh, uh, an article I wrote called Moscow's Master's Fine Japan. And this guy was a, we, we talked about it before, but, uh, long story short, a Japanese man, uh, disappeared, uh, in 1965 in Japan and in a town, Japan. And then, uh, a year later, he reappeared. A year later, he's training Ralph Montioe. Yeah. Mr. Miyagi. And his name, yeah, is none other than Mr. Miyagi, but, no, it really, uh, uh, so this, so this, uh, Japanese guy reappeared a year later, but it wasn't actually the same guy. It was a Soviet illegal who took on his identity. Oh, yeah, that's right. Yeah. Remember this. Yeah. In 1966. And, uh, and then from there, he, he, um, he was there until, I mean, the accounts vary. It's either, he, and this, and this is what doesn't necessarily match up,

1:11:26but he was either there until 1989 or 1995 and was posing as Japanese guy. So the Soviets had an officer, uh, of Asian extraction. We don't know, you know, but, um, who, who successfully posed as a Japanese man and was running a network there and, and, you know, running agents and gathering intelligence. Well, it turns out that, uh, it's probably the same guy they, they revealed this, uh, gentleman, his name was Yvgeny Kim, Kim, and he was a Korean, uh, in ethnic Korean, in the Soviet Union. And, uh, he, he began working, uh, serving in KGB in 1962. And then in 66, he was sent, uh, he was sent, the, the SBR says to an unnamed Asian country with a, you know, a, uh, a tough operational environment. It was probably Japan, you know, every, that, that's what matches up anyway. And so, um, I mean, he could have been, he could have been just sent to Korea, you know, but, but it looks like he, he might have, he might have taken on, I mean, it kind of matches,

1:12:30you know, he could have taken on the identity of Japanese man. And, uh, you know, so, well, um, so that's, that's new. And there, there are seven new ones. And so that, that's a lot of new information. And so, uh, I'm gonna have to, uh, I'm gonna have to translate some of that stuff or, you know, create, uh, new articles. I mean, it's, it's pretty interesting. So, uh, and I, I know you mentioned it earlier and we've touched on it in the past, but because it's the most high profile and memorable one, was Anna Chapman, uh, an illegal's operation or something lesser, of lesser stuff? Uh, she herself was not an illegal. Yeah, she was, um, she was kind of used as an access agent. So, you know, she could, uh, she could, she could be used for like talent spotting, um, you know, maybe gaining access to certain social circles, you know, she's attractive. So, you know, potentially, you know, kind of, uh, you know, swallow type stuff, um, you know,

1:13:32not necessarily that she was like, you know, like a sex pot or whatever, you know, but, but rather, just that, you know, she, uh, she could make these social connections and, you know, uh, kind of, uh, gain entry into certain circles, right? Yeah. Just, you know, by, by who she, and I, I mean, because Chamin was, uh, even though she had the name Anna Chapman, she was a, she was a Russian girl and she spoke with an Russian accent. Right. You know, and she, she wasn't like, that's right. So, she wouldn't have been an illegal. She would have, yeah. Yeah, she wasn't an officer. She was at most, um, you know, just kind of used for here and there, little tasks, you know, um, and, you know, the FBI tricked her into, uh, you know, responding to a request for help, you know, that, that it was supposedly the SBR when it's an actual, you know, she's, oh, yeah, you know, I'm down. Let's do it, you know, it was in reality. It was the FBI. Okay. All right. Well, uh, let's go to some super chats here, unless there's anything else you want to bring up. Um, okay, Aaron Bellin for two pounds. He says,

1:14:36thank you for introducing me to Orthodoxy J. Well, thank you, Aaron. I hope you are continuing that trick and that you find Orthodoxy convincing Daniel Thorsten 499. He says, Jay, I'm 30 years old, suicidal. I lost everything in my life due to an autoimmune disease. Your channel has helped me a lot. Thank you. Well, I'm honored to hear that and God have mercy. Uh, God bless. And I hope that maybe, you check out, uh, if you have autoimmune issues, I've had autoimmune issues. Maybe, uh, carnivore, keto diet is something to look into. Check out. Go to Orthodox church. Yeah. Oh, that's true. Yeah, just I just meant in terms of the physical. Yeah, definitely go to Orthodox church. Uh, Jade Masquerade, five dollars. Thank you. The message is retracted. Um, Troy, Samson, 10 bucks, I just don't get it. If the world is overpopulated, why don't the people making a fuss kill themselves? Well, because it's not overpopulated by them. It's overpopulated by us. So, yeah, see, it's, they always say,

1:15:40it's too much of you, just enough of me. Yeah, right. Yeah, Ted Turner's got like, uh, what, seven, eight kids, but he says everybody else needs to buy. Yeah, but everyone else has to offer himself. Yeah. All right. Um, I don't see anymore. If you want to read more of Mark's essays and translations, you can go to espionage history archive right there. And I know you've been kind of batting around the idea of a book. Do you think that'll happen? Yeah. Um, and especially with these, uh, these new releases, um, you know, the new, new officers, new illegal officers that have been, um, you know, kind of put out in the media by the SBR. You know, I was thinking about just doing one. Maybe that could be a separate book, but there's, there's, I think there's lots of room for now for, you know, kind of like, um, dossier style, like shorter biographies of a bunch of them, you know, like, you know, kind of like, uh, you know, these, uh, all these illegals that, uh, have been

1:16:43revealed in the history of Soviet intelligence. I think there's enough that that would, that would make a pretty good book. Yeah, definitely. I mean, your, your work is great. Uh, I encourage everybody to go check it out. Um, and also the old stuff, we all love your work, man. So, thanks for all the older stuff too. It sold the East, the, the, uh, the Ivan Ilyan translations are all necessary reading as well. And, um, the last thing I want to say about the, the TV show was that, uh, um, I believe, uh, it did have CIA consultation as well. I think I read that. Yes. Yes. Yes. It was, I think it was consulted. And it was also the, the director or the producers, I mean, they were, they were, uh, actual CIA officer at one time. The other interesting thing about it, there's not a lot of it, but it's still there. Uh, there is a little bit of a satiric symbolism in the Americans. You, you go back, you look at their addresses. Uh, the, the Jennings that the illegals, the, uh, uh, what it fill up in Elizabeth. Well, they have all the have owls everywhere in their,

1:17:45yeah, they have owls all over their kitchen. Um, and the owl is actually, is actually used by, um, S.V.R. Uh, to, um, at the owl is, it's kind of a symbol of like, um, new, uh, new intelligence officers. So yeah, there's, they have a specific, like a little, uh, uh, uh, let, let help him of an owl that, you know, that, that indicates, you know, new officer training. Interesting. But, um, but, uh, the owls are in the kitchen at the Jennings. That's interesting. They also have a lamp that's owls. They have an owl lamp in there. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And then, and then if you look at their addresses, the Jennings are 22 and the beam and beam in is 33. So yeah. Excellent. Um, and I'm sure there's more to with, uh, did you notice to the, the end, uh, spoiler alert. I'm not going to tell anybody what happens, but the show ends in McDonald's and then it, and then

1:18:48they go to Moscow. That was interesting. Yeah. The parallel of what's the most American, them sitting in the park and a lot of McDonald's and then McDonald's. Yeah. McDonald's. And then he, then, then this, for the final sequence, when they're looking over the bridge at the city of Moscow. So an interesting comparison of the two, like the last time they're in America's McDonald's and then they look, they look at Moscow. Anyway, um, yeah. So thank you guys. Thank you, Mark. Uh, everybody come back and subscribe to the channel. Follow Mark's work. Like, thumb, all that stuff and I will talk to you all soon.