Jeff Belanger on The World’s Most Haunted Places

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1:01Hey, it's Kelly Rowland. You may not know this, but I have Exama. So I get how it can steal your time. But why let Exama take over when you can talk to your doctor about Epglis? Epglis, Lebrichizmab, LBKZ. A 250-mg per 2-mg leader injection is a prescription medicine used to treat adults and children 12 years of age and older. Who weigh at least 88 pounds or 40 kilograms with moderate to severe Exama? Also called a topic dermatitis that is not well controlled with prescription therapies used on the skin or topicals or who cannot use topical therapies. Epglis can be used with or without topical corticosteroids. Don't use if you are allergic to Epglis. A allergic reactions can occur that can be severe. Eye problems can occur. Tell your doctor if you have newer worsening eye problems. You should not receive a live vaccine when treated with Epglis. Before starting Epglis, tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection. Respect your time. Ask your doctor about Epglis and visit Epglis.com or call 1-800-LilyRX or 1-800-545-5979.

2:19And the soul, somewhere beneath it all, still whispering. This is not all there is. That whisper is the spark. Aeombite as were scholars, mystics, rebels and renegades gathered as strike the walls and listen for what echoes back. No easy answers, no spiritual anesthesia, no polite little cage for dangerous ideas. Just the wild, strange mind-blowing conversation you always wanted. Partnosis, part jailbreak, part cosmic heavy metal sermon from the ruins of the real. If the world feels like a prison, you are not broken. You are waking up. Aeombite, Nostec radio. I want you to take a ride on heavy metal. My little heavy metal introduction and welcome everybody to Aeombite.

3:23Welcome to the desert of the real. We are raging against heaven and storming the gates of hell for our misplaced childhoods and paradises lost. We don't take prisoners but liberate them. We are not the final authority on anything. You are the final authority. Have always been and you're going to do wonders when you come to this place ofnosis with unique takes and guests. You won't find anywhere else on the internet. Even if most of the internet is probably dead as I believe in that little conspiracy. My name is Miguel Conner and I am your pompadess ofnosis. I am always so glad to see you. I always appreciate you being here and always so full of love and joy for your company, your noses and your support. Today we have a special show. It is the first day of fall. As always, I like to throw in some relevant topics through the month of October through the season of the witch.

4:29I was at an AA meeting last night and I left the meeting and I looked up at the air and I was like I can feel the dead. I don't know. Hopefully it's not one of my premonitions. Hopefully it just means this is the time when the bales get thinner and it's time to communicate and listen to the Sophia of those who are still with us. Our ancestors, our friends, those energies that are in different places because they have so much good advice and we don't want to forget them because of their very important lessons. So today for this exciting first day of fall, I am thrilled to be joined by Jeff Belinger to discuss his book, The World's Most Haunted Places. Jeff, thank you very much for coming on the show. Thanks Miguel, thanks for having me. Thanks for that lovely introduction. Sounds like we're going to be all over the spiritual map, which is great.

5:29Indeed, indeed, like I told you before the show, I used to do ghost hunting, Chicago ghost investigation. This is more than 10 years ago and we would go down to the basements where Al Capone had his accounting. There was a lot of dead people, a lot of dead people who died terribly obviously and we do the rods and other tools. And of course, you saw the orbs, we would channel some of these figures. We were able to channel the deceased of many of the guests that we take down and it was always wonderful when they would come to some sort of conclusion or be able to talk to these people. One of the most inspirational things that I did and I can say it was my favorite job ever, but you know, pay wasn't very good because our society has got his shit backwards, right? We don't honor the dead like we should Jeff. I'm not sure if being in the basement where people were murdered is honoring the dead Miguel, but you know, it's a marketing angle.

6:35I mean, and I'm guilty as as many crimes as you are a bunch of saying. Yeah, well, you know, that poor accountant who fudges numbers and Al, you know, put a bullet in it, you know, he's got something to say, right? Sure. And does it. So the funny thing about a ghost or any haunting, right, is that I believe it is a sermon from our past. It is a unfinished business, but I think we've got the narrative wrong. Everybody thinks the ghost has unfinished business. Not so we have unfinished business, right? We know mobsters like Al Capone are still around us today. They will be around again, different forms, right? Maybe not like the old time gangster, maybe in some other way, but that haunts us because it's unjust, right? And people's lives were stolen from them for reasons other than, you know, nothing more than profit or convenience or whatever. And when a human life gets devalued to that point, it should haunt us. It should echo the past should echo.

7:37And we should listen because we want to do better in the present and in the future. And I think that's why some of these stories are so important to share. And I get their sensational. I'm not faulting you for going in the basement. I would have been there with you. Trust me. I've been there. I've been to Chicago many times. But I totally get it. That's the reason we do this is because we're trying to wrap our heads and hands around something from the past. Yeah, really well said. That's for sure. And with us, we've got in his non-corporeal form. Graham, Graham, how are you doing today? Oh, I'm doing pretty good. You know, from my perspective, as long as it's you feeling the dead, you're probably doing okay. Now if the dead start feeling you, yeah, problems are likely to follow. Egg. For sure, for sure. Awesome. See, good crowd already appearing in the chat. So as always, if you have any questions, please super chat them. If you are already a YouTube member, Petri on or a B prime member.

8:39I know who you are. I can see you. So of course, feel free to throw a question. And we will certainly get to them now much on the house keeping. Yeah, good shows. Big news coming in October on Friday, David Block will join us with his always excellent presentation. The day the Demiurge destroyed Atlantis. It's part of the series of the Demiurge destroying Atlantis. So you won't want to miss it. And yeah, as always, please support a invite in any way you can help grow this red pill cafeteria. Can't do it without you and I really appreciate those who make this show happen. So let's start with you, Jeff. How did you come into this? I think you write in your book as a, as a child, you were already dabbling with the supernatural, weren't you, Ouija boards? Sure. Yeah. So growing up, growing up in New England, you know, we've got so much history here and we preserve it.

9:39You know, we've got old homes and buildings and sometimes there's ghosts there. So I grew up in Sandy Hook, Connecticut, which is the town next to Monroe, Monroe is where Ed Lorraine Warren lived. If you've ever seen any of the conjuring movies or whatever. Yeah. Back in the 80s when I was growing up, I mean, they were local celebrities. They were, they were not nearly as famous as they are today now that they've passed away because of those movies. But I remember seeing their presentations when I was like 13 years old and they would, they would show this video and photos and play these audio clips of these disembodied voices. And I remember just being completely intrigued. Also, I was raised Catholic, which seems important to disclose in Catholicism. You know, you've got God in the devil, angels and demons, saints and sinners and you've got purgatory. There's like a whole spectrum between good and evil and everything in between. And I was raised in a way that nobody told me ghosts aren't real. Nobody said that they're anti religious. Especially where it's okay to talk to the dead all the time. It's, it's, well, I mean, on a very pragmatic level, the dead are part of us. You know what I mean? Like literally our DNA, literally our DNA is full of dead people from generations past.

10:51Also, who we are as people, that's, that's the nature part. The nurture part is also full of dead people, right? Our parents, our parents who, their parents who raise them, their parents who raise them and on and on and on add infinity plus the communities where we live. So all that goes into makeup who we are that the, the dead should be honored because they're part of us. And that's a very practical no woo, woo, no paranormal way whatsoever. I happen to think the world's a lot weirder than we understand. And that in some cases, the dead are kind of like a movie that replays over and over again. Not necessarily there are interactive, but like something is still echoing because we need to understand it. I think in other cases, there's a message. There's literal communication with something that's spiritual. That, that is something for us. That's a gift for us to receive. Even if you're afraid, it's still some kind of gift because if you see what you perceive to be a ghost or spirit, it's a game changer for you on an individual level, right? Like now you got to deal with that.

11:56Something more is out there. How do I live my life considering that? Yeah, really well said really well said. And then what was your transition from later on you became a journalist and then you switched to looking for this high weirdness, right? So that actually wasn't a switch. That was just a continuum. Right. So, I had friends with haunted houses. We'd have sleepovers. We'd use the Ouija board and and what intrigued me as a kid was that my buddy, his house was built in 1760. We were England when that house was built, proud English people. And he said, yeah, this old guy walks down the hall and then he disappears. And no one was scared. It wasn't like a horror movie. There's no blood coming out of the walls. No one's head is spinning around. It was just very matter of fact. And I'm like, that's incredible. That doesn't happen at my house. And when I started, I wanted to be a writer. I knew that, you know, pretty much in high school and beyond. And I love feature stories. I was never a hard news guy. And around October you go looking for ghost stories because that's what the media does.

13:00And I love history and I love talking to people and all this stuff sort of came together. And I just I adored these stories more than any other. And then that was that was the mid 90s. And then I started a website in 1999 where I just collected ghost stories, ghost encounters and ghost research. And that's still around. It's called ghost village. And then I started writing books. And then I started working for the show ghost adventures. And then I started my own podcasts and everything else. And somewhere around 2004. I woke up and I went, oh my goodness. This is my full time job now. And it's it's a it's a job that, you know, I can't go back at this point. I'm too old. Right. I'm all in on this one. So, so I love it. But I've been able to see the world and meet incredible people and see and understand things from different cultures that I wouldn't have in any other way than doing what I do. That's your kids, Matt. And yeah, glad you're doing and doing something that you you love, right? Yeah, for sure. And I'm grateful for that too. And I understand too.

14:01When someone when someone shares a story of the profound with you, there's a lot of trust there. You know, you don't you don't tell your personal account stories to just anyone. It's there's a there's a level of trust. But I also feel that there's quite a bond that forms when you do share shared something like that with someone else when you say, hey, I was here and I saw this thing. I don't understand. But this is how I interpreted it. And it it's changed my life. It's changed who I am because of this experience. And then a beautiful thing happens when that person says, you know what? Something like that happened to me. And this is my experience. And we find out we have a lot more in common than than not. And the truth is most people, whether they admit it or believe in it, have had supernatural hauntings, right? I think a majority of people have those. The analogy I use is like, if you think of a ghost encounter as Abraham Lincoln tipping his tat hat to you and saying, hello there, right? Like that would be like the most extreme end of the spectrum. Like holy cow, you know, that they'll make movies out of that one.

15:05But on the other end is like that dream that felt like it was more than just a dream, smelling something that seems out of place, grandpa Stogi, grandma's perfume, feeling something. You know, if you've ever been in like a museum and you're the only one in a room and you're intently looking at a piece of art, suddenly you become aware that another human being is in the room, right? You turn around and you go, someone walked in. I didn't even hear them, but there they are. That's a sense we get. Sometimes we turn around and we don't see anybody there. Doesn't mean there's not someone there, right? But it means that we sensed it. So if you include all that smelling, sensing, feeling, hearing, seeing something you didn't quite understand all the way up to Abe Lincoln. That is a wide spectrum. And I think it includes most of us, like you said. Agreed. Yeah, I remember I also have had plenty of encounters all the time. My wife, she's she sees shadow people. She's very much mystically inclined. But in the 90s, I worked at a pub. But I went in my 20s and the pub was an old house. It actually used to be a brothel.

16:11So Madame was killed there. Her name was Maggie. And then it was I was working at Irish pub and she was always there. You know, you'd hear her voice. You'd be at the bar and like things would move and you'd like, come on Maggie. I mean, the whole staff, she was like the pet cat of the whole building. And yes, and people there, it just became part of part of our work life. And everybody was fine. And it's a scapegoat too, right? If if a glass breaks and falls, you'd blame her. Yes, yes, yes. That's true. We got away with a few of those so many old so many old, you know, in restaurants, pubs and and the like have these stories. And the ghost always becomes a scapegoat. Right. It's it's there. There's people that will set like a shot of whiskey out on the bar for the ghost at the end of the night. And they'll stay in the morning. It's empty or whatever. Others, you know, greet them. You're the first one in unlock. You say hello Maggie, right? And the day just seems to go a little better if you acknowledge her in some way. And and call that superstition call it whatever you like. But I'd rather have an easier day of work than a hard one. So can't blame anyone.

17:26That's true. That's true. Maggie can make your day very hard. So everybody was very respectful, even those who didn't believe in God. And your book is more than just examples. You talk about the psychology, the philosophy, for example, you talk about how dialogue about hunting, spring people together across different beliefs and cultures, right? It's important for a culture itself. It's to me, a ghost story is the least common denominator of spirituality. If we get a bunch of religious people in a room together, different religions and said, let's talk about our religions. There's going to be a fight. There's going to be there's just I'm right. You're wrong. No, you're wrong. I'm right. I whatever. So, but if I say, hey, can I tell you about this haunted building? Everybody leans in and says, yeah, sure. And then you sort of let the chips fall where they fall at that point. We're not talking about dogmas or rules or anything like that. Like, I don't know what's what, but I do know history happened in this building, something occurred and someone saw something.

18:30They saw a little girl in a red dress. She floats by the upstairs window. Then she's gone, reported by different people. And then we don't have to discuss which rules are the way to live. And then you shouldn't eat meat on Friday. And like, you know what I mean? Like all this stuff that I guess made sense at one point, but but seems sort of illogical at this point. We get to break it down to just this idea that there is something more after we die. What that thing is, I know we can argue about till the end. And then we actually find out. But that discussion allows us to strip away all the rules and dogmas and just talk about the spiritual. And I get it's titillating. I get that it's creepy and weird. But if that's what it takes, then it's just another reason to thank our ghosts. Very true. And it also helps us with the idea of death. I think it's because we realize it's life and death are more like a spectrum. And they still can talk to us.

19:30But when I lost my grandmother first, that was the person closest to me, but I was so young I didn't want to go to the wake because I didn't want to see her dead body. I was too young. I don't really regret that because I have her memories, right? But I remember when my grandfather died. And I saw his body in the casket as a kid. And I remember looking at him and I went, that doesn't look like him. Now the undertaker did a fine job, right? Like it's not it wasn't that. But I'm like, it's him obviously. But it doesn't look like him because something really significant is missing. It should look like he's asleep. If there's nothing to this, it should just look like he's asleep or holding his breath. But it didn't. He wasn't there. That was the moment, I think, as a kid. I'm like, the thing that was him is not here right now. It's gone. And where did it go? Because this thing just doesn't look quite right. And that was one of the reasons in college, I was almost an atheist almost, but because I believed in ghosts, I never quite got there because I believe there was something more to it.

20:35And ironically seeing dead bodies was part of the evidence for me, the people I knew and loved and seeing that they were gone made me realize I think there's something more and I think that thing goes somewhere and I don't know where for sure. And you ever theorize, well, what exactly is going on? Because you know, in most cultures, when we die, we either get thrown into another meat sack in the wheel of death and rebirth, or we go to some next destination, heaven, it boot as a midsattemporary heaven or some other dimension as the Nostek said, but, but it seems some people stayed. Do you have like a working theory of why some stay? Why are we here? What's going on? Yes. And my theory will make everyone happy and everyone mad, which is incredible. How do you do that? My theory is both. Okay. Here's my example. Have you ever heard Jimmy Hendrix play guitar on record or whatever? Right? Of course. Right?

21:35Speaking of divine powers. Yes. Of course. So if you listen to his playing, Mozart is in there. He's buried. He's buried beneath the distortion and the pedals and everything else. He's buried beneath the rage. But Mozart is reincarnated in Jimmy Hendrix. And by the way, any other musician ever, right? Like from jazz to rock to pop to R&B rap, even anything. Mozart survives. Those notes transcend all of the future. So on the one hand, Mozart has been reincarnated millions and millions of times, Bach, Beethoven, all those classics. So I believe that pieces of us that inspire others, survive us through other people. Yes. I also believe we go somewhere. And I don't know where I really don't. I don't, I mean, call it what you want. This, this final judgment of heaven and hell. That seems sort of extreme to me. I was a big fan of Sam Kinnison growing up the great philosopher. And for those who don't know, Sam Kinnison was the guy that I was always screaming, you know, oh, all right. And his first job before he was a standup comic was a preacher and a church. He was a preacher.

22:52Even gelical preacher. He was even known to fire gun once in the church to because that was him. But he once said, if you're going to miss heaven, don't miss it by an inch. And I was like, man, imagine you get to the pearly gates and the St. Peter's like, you ate meat. How do you want to split it? Actually dinners on me. Okay, big money. Well, I got a Venmo balance that I can spend with my Venmo debit master card. So. Well, I've been a few three times last week. So it's kind of on me actually. Yeah, you send it. I spend it. Did my money get like green card needed? He has chicken sure. I want it back. I can't believe you like ate my Venmo. Spend your balance instantly with the Venmo debit card. No monthly fee or minimum balance. Venmo balance account required to get a card and use a balance. If I'm a master card is issued by the bank or bank NA. Hey, it's Kelly Rowland. You may not know this, but I have Xima. So I get how it can steal your time. But why let Xima take over when you can talk to your doctor about Epglis? Epglis, Lebrichizmab, LBKZ, a 250 milligram per 2 milliliter injection is a prescription medicine used to treat adults and children 12 years of age and older, who weigh at least 88 pounds or 40 kilograms with moderate to severe Xima.

24:04Also called a topic dermatitis that is not well controlled with prescription therapies used on the skin or topicals or who cannot use topical therapies. Epglis can be used with or without topical corticosteroids. Don't use if you are allergic to Epglis. Allergic reactions can occur that can be severe. I problems can occur. Tell your doctor if you have newer worsening eye problems. You should not receive a live vaccine when treated with Epglis. Before starting Epglis, tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection. Pay partnership with Lily. Respect your time. Ask your doctor about Epglis and visit Epglis.com or call 1-800-LilyRX or 1-800-545-5979. At QVC, fall shopping is more than just checking out. It's discovering the brands you love across beauty, fashion, home and culinary, all in one place. Whether you're getting ready for crisp mornings, cozy nights or everyday moments, QVC has what you need for the season ahead with brands like Loric Aller, Philosophy, Ninja and so many more.

25:06Shop now at QVC.com. On that one Friday, Jeff, sorry. This is so- You were pretty good. Overall, it gave to charity, helped others when you could, but that meet on Friday. I'm like, ah, ah! What I could have done if I wouldn't known. I don't know if I buy in for that eternal judgment sort of thing, but I do think we go somewhere, which is profound. Right? I mean, somewhere. Not nowhere. I think we go somewhere. And that's as far as I've gotten, which for me is quite evolved. Yeah, for sure. God, yeah, yeah. I love this comedy. There's that movie with a teacher with the Rodney Danger. Back to school. Back to school. One of the classic comedies. I think my favorite part of where it's Rodney Dangerfield character gets Kurt Vonnegut to write him a paper on Kurt Vonnegut. And the teacher fails him saying, this is not Kurt Vonnegut material level critique. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I mean, still around, right? Like these, you know, Rodney's gone, Sam Kinesen's gone, but like here we are talking about them.

26:15Which literally means we just summon them from the past and brought them to our present right here right now. Right? And that's, that's, that's real and tangible. I don't think the ghost is right behind me, per se, but we have just literally summon them. Just like when you think about your loved ones who've passed on, you summon them, you summon them to your memory and, and they're part of you, your DNA, I said before, but also like who you are. And I don't know, that's kind of wonderful. And I think in some ways that I don't think a ghost exists without a living human in the mix somewhere, right? I don't think there's ghosts in a vacuum. I don't think a house is haunted unless there's a person inside because a ghost or a spirit to me is a message and communication takes a bare minimum of two parties bare minimum. It's one person you're just yelling in the woods, right? You need someone to receive the message at least two. There can be more than two, but there has to be two. And so for me, if you're in a building and you see something experience something, feel something, that was a message. It's up to you to decode it. I can't decode it for you. You have to decode it. You were there. You felt it hurt it, sought, experienced it. What does it mean to you?

27:29Well said, well, before we got some examples in your book, grandma, let me bring you in. Do you have a question or comment for Jeff? Oh, absolutely. I have one of my questions. I'm a kind of practical sort of guy. And to me, the big question here is, do we all get sort of blenderized into this generic afterlife? Or can we sort of afterlife shop where we can kind of pick our faith and get the afterlife we want because you know that Mormon offer where I get my own planet and I get thumbs up or thumbs down what my wife gets into heaven. That's a pretty good offer. And it's somebody's got to do something to beat that one. So did do I get to purchase this not bad? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So do we get to shop or are we stuck with just one? Hey. Here's I think Graham gets to go to Mormon heaven, but he's the only one. No one else not even the Mormons get to go there. And then everybody else, I don't know. I have no idea. Let me just throw it out there. I had the movie Beetlejuice, which I adore, where you get the handbook for the recently deceased. I'm praying. We get that maybe it's on Kindle. I don't know, but I'm praying.

28:38We get handed that when we when we die so we can figure this whole thing out. I have no clue. I do know this. I have never found a location that is haunted 100% of the time. If I did, I would buy it and I would charge you a fortune to come see the ghost because you would pay your money. I would open the door and say, behold the ghost and the ghost would be chained up and say, let me out. Right? Like and I'd say, go ahead. There's it. That's 50 bucks. If you want to talk to it, it's 100. Right. And so I've never found a place that I knew when it would be haunted because that would be amazing too. These things are coming and going under forces that I can't control. I wish I could, but I can't. And so to me, that requires a higher power. That requires some form of higher power that's out there, sort of allowing things to come and go. Or maybe it's up to the individual to decide to come or go as long as they're needed. Also, if you think about this, with hauntings with ghosts, especially, they only go back so far. Civil War, sure. Right. Revolutionary war, less, but a few examples I can think of.

29:48You go back further and further than that. And it's just not enough of a connection with present day that they're still around. Right. And that's, I mean, yes, there's always a few exceptions. But in general, it's a couple of generations. And then they're just too far removed. And so I think a spirit is at peace when we forget about them. There's a proverb, right. We all die three deaths. The first death is when your body expires. Second death is when you're laid into the ground. The third and final death happens down the road when your name is uttered for the last time. And that's, that's when the ghost stops that ghost. They'll be more. There's new ones every day. Thank goodness. Or I would be out of work. But that's, that's when they're at rest is when they're completely forgotten and behind us. And that's, that's different for every individual. Yeah, very interesting. Yeah, I don't know if there are hauntings of Julius Caesar walking around pissed off or others, but you're right. It is pretty for the most part, pretty recent.

30:50And so what kind of rubric or critique, did you use to say this is the most haunted place or your process and picking these places? Completely selfish and egotistical. The ones I like the most. That's it. So on the one hand, I've been so working on the show ghost adventures. We worked on hundreds of different locations. My podcast has covered over 460 different weird stories just in New England so far in my books. I've written about dozens and dozens of others. So for me, I wanted to, first of all, show a diversity in the type of haunts. It's not going to all be graveyards. It's not going to be all abandoned as silence and hospitals. Also a diversity globally, like in how different cultures deal with this because I find that really interesting. For example, I knew a guy in Japan who was, he was, he was paid by a realtor to spend the night in an alleged haunted house. So in the morning, he could come out and prove that I stayed all night. I was okay. And now you can sell this house.

31:58I'm like, man, sign me up. Right? I would do that. I would love to see Japan that way. Like I have a different place every night. I got a, I got a spend the night in these allegedly haunted homes and then survive. And if I do, then they can sell the house and I get free, free lodging. So I adore how different cultures take this in different ways. You go to England, old England, right? And there's so matter of fact, it is not a debate. It's not a, it's not an anger thing. That building's haunted. That one isn't, that one has broken chips. You know, that pub is the pub I go to. It's haunted. The one next to it isn't. And then you go to some parts of the United States, right? And it's like, oh, no, no, this is all from God or the devil. We don't talk about this. And I disagree with that personally, but that's how they were raised. And that's how it happens, right? And I think other people, it's all earth energies and portals and, and different dimensions. And maybe you're right. You know, maybe you're right. Maybe these are just dimensions bumping into each other.

33:00I don't know. I don't know, but I do know that I wanted to show diversity among the subject, the cultures, the language, the history, and the type of haunting. And, and also some of these are like, for me, I think of them as songs. Some of them are hits like the Queen Mary. It's a banger, right? It's a, you got to play the hits. If you're going to see the Rolling Stones, they can't be like, here's all stuff from our new jazz album. You're like, oh, I don't want any of that. It's not why I'm here. Play the hits. Yeah, there's nothing good after some girls. Come on. Yeah. So, you know, I had to play some hits too. So that was, but, but I love those hits. That's not, it wasn't out of obligation. It's just they're a hit for a reason. They're on all the TV shows for a reason because they've got a great backstory and they've got something to say. Yeah. And it seems one of the themes for sure is the lessons of the dead and also places of extreme Trump. Again, that's why what this week, the battlefields United States are so full of ghosts because the Civil War was such a carnage.

34:06For young men conscripted who could care less about North South, you know, and just thrown into the meat grinder and slaughtered by the tens of thousands. And so, but one of them too, Jeff is our dark pass of a silo. And of course, to me, the one that really made my stomach turn was the pen, her state school in Pennsylvania. Tell the audience about it and why haven't they made a movie about this? Great horror movie. So, Pennhurst is right outside of Philadelphia and so many asylums in this country have a similar story. There was a time hundreds of years ago where if someone had a mental disability or a physical deformity or physical disability, they sometimes were kept chained in your basement, attic or barn because it was such an embarrassment. They were put in jail. These are just put in jail. And then this guy Kirkbride comes along and he starts building these beautiful campuses.

35:08It looks like college campuses and the idea is let's put people with mental and physical disabilities in here have them earn their own keep, grow their own food, make their own clothes, not be a burden on the community. And they started to thrive. They were treated like human beings and everything was really going well. And then the early 1900s comes along and the Great Depression comes along. People are getting themselves committed just because it's a roof over your head and meals, it gets overcrowded. And the good and noble work that these buildings were doing, they just weren't able to do it anymore because it was stretched too thin. Panhearce comes along in the early 1900s. I think it was the hospital for the feeble minded or an epileptic or whatever, which is obviously a dated name. But it was one of those situations where at the beginning they were doing some good work. They were treating people, giving them a beautiful place to live and treating them like a human being. But over time as it gets overcrowded, that they were just stretched too thin by the 50s and 60s, it was absolutely getting barbaric.

36:10I spoke to one nurse who worked there and she said her first week on the job, she had to go and change adult diapers on patients who were literally chained to beds. They could not get out of their beds and she would change adult diapers on about 100 beds. And by the time she and the other nurse got done with the 100 diapers, it was time to go back and start again. And she said some of those patients would rub their feces in their hair and in their skin, not because they don't know any better, quite the opposite. They did it because they knew they would get a bath and get human contact that they wouldn't get otherwise. Can you imagine getting to that point where you resort to that just to get the most basic of human needs bathing and touch? And so the conditions became barbaric. To make it worse, they would tell people when you drop off your loved one, don't write, don't call, don't visit, it'll mess up the routine where the professionals. And at some point, I mean, the conditions were just so overcrowded that the staff is spread too thin.

37:12There's atrocities taking place. Patients are killing each other. One patient I spoke to said if you bit someone more than once, they surgically removed all your teeth. And people were being kept in dog kennels where they couldn't get out. They were just literally in a little cage. And a guy named Bill Baldini from a network affiliate in Philadelphia saw these conditions did this expose the whole world found out about it. And it was eventually shut down. And there's actually a federal law now based on what happened at Pennhurst on how you can and can't treat people with disabilities based on what happened there. The buildings were shut down. They were left empty, decrepit crumbling and haunted to the core because they should be haunted because that building has something to tell us the atrocities took place in the 1970s. I mean, I was alive. I was a baby, but like, you know, so, but still like we can't let that happen again. We can't let there be another Pennhurst.

38:12So if telling this ghost story allows us to explore how poorly we treated the people with the biggest needs in our communities and our country. Maybe there's a chance that that haunting will help us look at people with needs today a little differently and say, all right, we can't go back to that. How do we do better? And that's that's the sermon from the past. That is the sermon. I've been in those buildings numerous times. The first time I was there, we were in this hallway that there's always underneath that connects some of the building. So if it's bad weather, you can go between them. And I was down there. I was with Zach from Ghost of Entres and my friend Dave. We have no cameras. We had just arrived and we hear this like faint giggling way in the distance of one of the tunnels. And then this like rush of wind just goes right by us. And we all looked at each other. And for me, it felt like this building has something to say. And we are here to listen and convey the message if we can. And that that is the message, right? Because if I tell you a building's haunted, the very next words out of your mouth should be why.

39:18And the answer why I have to go back in time with you and take you through the history and tell you what happened and what led up to it. And then we get the complete picture. Then we get the full sermon, the full story. And the ghost means so much more than just something weird that bumps in the night. Well said yes, they have those lessons for sure on a little side note Jeff. I last year I released my book, the occult Elvis showing you know the mystical paranormal side of Elvis. And of course he is one of the most popular ghosts in the last 50 years, right? Have you done any work on Elvis apparitions? I have not. I've been to Graceland. He died from being so tacky. Obviously. No kidding. Oh, it's amazing. He hit a limit. It was like too much velvet. And that was it. No, I haven't done any but but like but that's another example when I said Mozart still with us. Of course Elvis is still with us, right?

40:18Not just the biopics and stuff like that, but the cultural, you know, Elvis the meaning of what he was and who he was the pop star. We've seen pop star since we will again, but he was his own brand of that. And and yeah, I mean we're both old enough to remember the grocery store checkout line. And it's it's you know Elvis is alive and he's living in Canada. Elvis is alive and he's living with Bigfoot in the woods, you know, like you have a full Elvis. We couldn't let him go. And that's that's how pro how big of a person and personality that he was. So I'll tell you this though, I've done a lot of stories about like old haunted B&Bs around Virginia and stuff like that. And so many of them because they're quite old have a plaque that say George Washington slept here. And you sure they totally possible maybe even probable also because they're so old they tend to be haunted.

41:18Yes, who's haunting all of them George Washington right. I call it most famous phenomenon right the most famous person who ever visited stayed lived or otherwise that a building becomes it becomes attributed to the ghost. It could be the gardener who was drunk and fell off the roof in 1951, you know, haunting the place, but that's not nearly as good as no it's Washington, you know, first president. He's he slept here on this date. We have his signature in the ledger and he's still haunting the place, you know, like he enjoyed his stay so much. This is where he chooses to spend eternity that and 30 other B&Bs, you know, in the region. And so I get it. We want to connect with the past. And for us, I'd much rather connect to Washington than the gardener who fell off the roof. So no surprise at all that people are spotting Elvis's ghost all kinds of places and of course, he's still culturally relevant.

42:19He really is. He really is. And yeah, you're right. It's like, you know, like reincarnation somehow everybody's a reincarnation of Cleopatra or somebody fake. No, it is a reincarnation of the gardener who fell off the roof 50 years ago. No, I don't want that to be my past life. I'm pretty sure I was like a stable boy, you know, just shoveling crap, you know, like, that's and I must have been good at it because I got upgraded a little not a lot, but a little bit. So I'm grateful for that. And speaking of George Washington, you do with the White House. Grace Land is the second most visited house in this country. Number one would be the White House. So we just assume there's got to be ghosts there, right? What I loved about the White House. So I wrote a whole book about the ghost of the White House years ago. And I got to go and visit. I got to interview some of the staff as far as I know I'm the only paranormal person they've ever allowed in. I mean, they knew what I was doing. So I, this was back George W. Bush, the younger Bush was president at the time, which by the way, this is nothing to do with politics.

43:27He was just happened to be president. I called the main switchboard number. It's all I had. I am not politically connected for everybody's information. I like to keep my presidential campaign contributions right at zero. It's a nice even number. I can remember it every time. And by the way, I am proud to say I have given zero to everyone who's ever run in my lifetime. And we'll continue to do so. What am I buying for the money? You know what I mean? Anyway, here and there. I call the switchboard. And I said, Hey, I'm writing a book about the ghost of the White House. Is there someone I could talk to? And they went, huh, hold please. So I held what what else within 30 seconds. I was connected to the boss. I was blown away. The boss, the bosses of the president, the boss is the chief usher of the White House. This is the person that about 100 employees report to Butler's cleaning crew. Ground's keepers cooks, you know, all the people that take care of that building, regardless of which political parties empower that Gary Walters was his name.

44:27He had been the chief usher since Nixon. He had served every president between Nixon and George W Bush. He spent more time in that building, arguably than even a two term president. Like I know the two term president lives there, but he's there 40 to 80 hours a week for all those years. It's going to add up. And so I said, Hey, I'm working on a book about the ghost of the White House. He said, Yeah, we're not interested. I said, Look, I think it's first of all to children's book. And I think it's an innovative way to teach history to kids. You can't know who a ghost is unless you knew who a person was. And he said, Go on. And so after a background check and so on sponsored by my elected rep, I got to go down there and interview Mr. Walters in his office, get a tour of the main floor. There is a power to that building when you stand under the North Portico and you realize every single US president stood where you're standing at one point. I know Washington died before it was complete, but he laid the cornerstone. I mean, he was there. He was on the grounds. When you see that when you feel that, like you can feel this connection to this all the significance of these buildings.

45:33Secret service agents are in every room. And they know everything about every piece of furniture. This rug was brought in in 1997. This this desk was a gift of King, whoever this portrait was painted by so and so. And I said, well, what do you know about the ghosts of the White House? And without the same tone of voice, he said, well, people have reported seeing a British red coat out near the North Portico holding a torch. And I went, you just said that in the same voice, you talked about the the desk, the rug, the painting. And I said, is this, you know, federal recognition of the existence of ghosts? And he said, sir, I don't know what you're talking about. And he has a gun and I'm not going to press it. But. But the so during the war of 1812, the British sacked Washington, they burned the White House to the ground. It was just an empty shell. The stone walls were intact, but the everything inside burned. And there's two spots on the White House that they never painted. There's a little spot on the North side and on the South side that still shows the burn marks. And the reason is that there's a message in that don't let your guard down. It's happened before, right? This building's been burned. And I think that ghost is around for the same reason.

46:38As I spoke to some of the other staff, one of the one of the chief operations form and said he went up on the second floor early in the morning to turn on the lights and water the plants part of his duty. And right outside of the Lincoln bedroom, he sees Abraham Lincoln sitting with his legs crossed hands resting on his lap, looks right at him and then disappears. And here's the thing. Presidents have claimed to have weird experiences in there, but we don't drug tests our presidents. We don't psychologically evaluate our presidents. We don't background check them in any way or shape or form. But Tony Savoy, the White House chief operations form. He's been drug tested, psych screened, evaluated eight ways to Sunday because he's around the president, the first family and foreign heads of state. If he says he saw something, that's the most reliable witness we will ever find. And not only that, Lincoln's on our money, right? Pull out a fiver. Yep, that's the guy, right? Like that's the one I just saw. And so again, so matter of fact. And also the Lincoln bedroom was never Lincoln's bedroom. That used to be the executive office before they had added the East and West wings.

47:43That's where the president would have worked each and every day. And so when the staff says like, yeah, weird stuff has happened. Gary Walters, the chief usher that I talked to, said he and a local DC police officer were stationed somewhere one night and he was just chatting with him. And he said, one of the doors just like shut on its own. And I get it. Holly was not going to buy the rights to that one. But it's the White House. No door should open or shut under any circumstances, unless it is checked and double checked and planned to be opened or shut. And to me, those stories just start to add up. I also called every single presidential US library. And I got every reference to ghosts in the White House from those libraries, including one that was classified that I had to file a Freedom of Information Act for. And so I all this stuff started starts to gather together. And I'm like, this is fantastic. This historic building with witnesses that range from like Harry S Truman saying sure is shooting the places on it quote right to you know Reagan saying my dog barks wildly by the Lincoln bedroom and then runs off even though no one's in there.

48:50And Hillary Clinton saying in an interview the place feels spooky on and on and on these stories just keep coming from this building that is so significant. And I I ate it up. I couldn't get enough. No, yeah, imagine. Yeah, somebody I can't do a Trump impersonation, but somebody's the most beautiful ghost. Beautiful. We got the best ghosts in my administration or something. So Lincoln's ghost comes up the most often no question. And I saw an interview once with George H. W. Bush the elder. And he had said I was new in office. I had to send some US troops into harm's way and I was really struggling over, you know, over that because American could die. I was up all night thinking about it. And then I just thought about what Lincoln went through and I said, all right, wait a minute, if Lincoln got through that, I can get through this. Lincoln is the benchmark. He's the most difficult presidency, the most complicated, the hardest of all of them. There's not even a close second, right.

49:51So Lincoln's son dies while he's in the White House of Typhoid his nations at war with itself. And of course, he paid the ultimate price. He was assassinated for the office. That's it. That's as hard as it will ever get. Hopefully. And so I think like presidents like H. W. Bush honor that and literally need his spirit around. I need the spirit of Lincoln to remind me that whatever I'm going through, he had it tougher and I can get through this. And I feel like any president that has an understanding and appreciation for history also needs Lincoln around. I would if I had that job, which I don't want. So please don't vote for me. I'll vote for you. Just to piss you off and get you in the White House. Yeah, all the nerve review. You're grassroots ever. But I tell you what, I definitely do a ghost on. I've always wanted to go up to the upper floors. But the only way to get to the upper floors is you have to be invited by the first family or president. And again, because my campaign contributions stay right at zero. I don't think that will ever happen. No, that's not going to happen.

50:53Yeah, very interesting. I know you had the boss probably didn't met Elvis when Elvis. It just went up to the security gate and Nixon just let him into the White House so they could have a conversation. Some people have that cloud. I don't think I'm there. Yeah, yeah, bigger than the president would be the king. Yeah. I'm going to talk about the hierarchy in this world. Yeah, God is so fascinating about that. And it's funny too. It's like, yeah, G all these presidents are conservative Christians until they're backs against the wall. They need suddenly they're all, you know, spiritualists and theosophists and channeling ghosts, right? Yeah. Well, Lincoln, I mean, of course, his wife was holding sayances, trying to contact their son. Brokenhearted, you know, we know president attended at least one of them because he paid a, you know, a bit of a political price on the papers said, what's this president doing consulting with psychics? Reagan was consulting a new manager. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So he had he had things so like, you know, look, we all have our ways to get through things and or deal with things or process ideas and information.

52:00And that's unfortunately for the president, like you're in a fishbowl and you're scrutinized more than arguably just about anybody else in the country. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's so many examples in your book. What would you say, perhaps, or you want to mention might be one of your favorite ones or the most impactful one or memorable one? Because I've got here a long list, more asylums, towers, castles, but anything you would like to share with the audience. So for me, I became a confirmed believer in Paris, France, when I was visiting the catacombs. I was, I was over there in a whole other work capacity. It was 2003 and I had a date of myself and some colleagues said, hey, we're going to go to the Louvre and see the Mona Lisa. And I was like, I'll catch up with you later. I went underground. I went down to the catacombs of Paris and the catacombs are this network of tunnels beneath the city. They go for hundreds of kilometers and it's, it takes your breath, the breath away when you're down there.

53:05When Paris was growing, Paris grows out. It doesn't go up. Right. So it just sprawls forever because there's really very few tall buildings. There's the Eiffel Tower, a hotel or two. And then otherwise it's just outward. And by the 1700s, Paris had grown around their cemeteries. And by the 1800s, there's no more room to bury the dead because they're full. The corpses are literally piling up. It smells. It's rotting into the streets. And the tunnels are where they get all this great limestone to build so many of those beautiful buildings. They keep quarrying underneath the ground. So the ground's hollow. The buildings are getting heavier. It's a disaster. So they have to empty the cemeteries and close up those tunnels. When I went down there, it's very quiet. You're walking through these, I saw graffiti from the French underground. And then I get to a doorway that's said in French, stop. This is the empire of the dead. And as I walk through, I was greeted by just millions of human skeletons in this very macabre pattern. And it's one of those things.

54:06I'll never forget it. It completely takes your breath away. And once I started to walk down these, you know, walk down these hallways, I'll just, I'll never forget like what I saw. I wonder if I can share something. Let's see. Can I share my screen? Nope, I can't. Anyway, wait, if I can't, here we go. Share it. There you go. And here we go. So this is, this is within the catacombs. And as I'm walking through, I mean, I saw, they're right there. There's no, there's nothing to talk, you know, no, no plexiglass, no glass. There's signs like this one that tell you where the bones came from. But, um, not who they are. So these bones came down between 1846 and 1847 from the cemetery of St. John. And I saw, you know, just piles of humanity. And, you know, Valentine's hearts made of skulls, crosses made of skulls. And at one point, I was, uh, whoops, we can stop that.

55:09How do I stop it? Whoops, don't do that. Stop screen. At one point, I was walking down a long hallway with that was just as wide as my two fingertips on either side. And I saw this shadow, the size of a man go from one side to the other and back again. And I just froze and I went, all right, wait a minute. That's not a ghost. I don't know what it is. And that's the way out. I went just, you know, keep walking, you know, this way, that's, that's the way I had to go. No side tunnels. And at that point, I had already interviewed hundreds of people about their ghost experiences. And I was always like journalistic about it. Why believe that you believe I wasn't there. So I can't confirm. But I don't think you're lying to me. But when you see something, like it's a game changer, I went, oh, this is what they're talking about. I'll never forget it. And I also, and then I thought about my last name, Belanger, right? But over there, it's Ben-Alge. It's a French name. I'm a mut. I'm a big mix of people. But my DNA is in those bones somewhere. You know, like it's, there's, it's, it's down there.

56:10And, and was that the connection? Did they pop out for, for something? And what was the message? And maybe I'm still trying to figure out the message. But I will never forget it. By the time I get back up to the surface and, you know, Paris is bright and noisy and busy. And I just went, oh my gosh, this is what everybody's talking about. And I'll, I'll never forget it. Wow, love it. God, if I'm ever in Paris, that's exactly what I will, I'll be doing. Is it more, since grave, go down to the catacombs, life will be good, life will be good. Yeah. As we get towards the top of the hour, Graham, do you have a question or two for Jeff Belanger? Only over there. Yeah. What popped into my head as you brought up the White House, I was curious. What about Independence Hall? I would think that that might have a fair amount of ghost activity. Thank you. Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't doubt it. I just haven't really done much research on it. So I couldn't comment. But every building has got any building where, where history is left, some sort of a mark, whether it's a mark, a scar, a stain.

57:16There's always some connection that we think about. And so though I don't know any specifics about Independence Hall, I wouldn't be surprised. Fair enough. Thanks so much, Jeff. Sure. Yeah, the other one that also they jumped out to me was a guy. Of course, I love all of them. But of course it's that time of years, the gruesome ones, the one that scared in in Wales, where what was it? Public house where they had an execution and they hung 182 people, but they didn't pay the bill or something. So the scared claims to be the oldest continually operating public house in the UK, which is up for debate, but no matter what, it's been many centuries that it's been an operation. Public houses, it's tough for us to grasp, but like a public house over there would have been kind of like our meeting houses here in early America, a meeting house was a place for church, but also a place for town meetings, town discussions, anything.

58:21They did it a little better over in the UK. They went to a pub so you could get a drink and have town meetings. So you would have town meetings in the public house. You would have court hearings. If there is a dispute, if we had a dispute over land or farms or some deal we made, a magistrate would come in, have a beer, I hope. And you know, and and hear these various cases and settle them for us, you know, however many times a month or how often they came through. So the public house was a place to do everything, have a drink, hang out with your neighbors, have meetings, and so on. The scary, the story goes that when you were guilty of capital crimes, they could do the hanging there too because they had this stairway with old beams where they could just throw the rope around there. And then we'll tell you that it probably took place more likely outside, but not impossible that it could have been inside either way. The building is haunted throughout. It's been around for centuries. And it's just, and I mean, I've worked on TV shows there. I've known many people that have been in and through there.

59:24And it feels like everybody's got a story at this point. And I know that's part of it. When you go into a building and you know how haunted it is, you're, you're on high alert. To me, it's like taking the Ouija board out of the box, right? You there's nothing magical about the cardboard and plastic. It's in you. You are the, you're the compass. That's just the needle. But I think when you're in those places, you start opening up to stuff that's probably around us all the time. You just don't think about it at the grocery store. You should do think about it when you're in places like the skewered in. Yeah. God. Again, what? Wonder what they did. Again, they didn't pay their tab. Maybe some started singing tool or Barry Manel or something like this is a capital offense. The first and the last capital offense was she links the stealing sheep. Oh, so there you go. I will do it in those days. Yeah. So no, no, that could starve an entire family or farmer. Sure. Yeah. It was, yeah, definitely serious. And yeah, you're talking about the catacombs in Paris.

1:00:24I, when I was born in Portugal, I go back there when I came, but there's a monastery there. It completely built by monk skulls. The whole monastery is a monk skull. It's amazing. It's a, yeah, I know I feel it's so powerful. It's, yeah, having the skull mortality life history is right there in your life. Those were people. Yeah. It's amazing. And that's what's in all of us, right? This like this, this little little go little skeleton that's inside all of us. And it's the thing we leave behind the longest. Exactly. Interesting. As he engaged with these ghosts. You would marry you. Sorry. So I would love to. I have, I've not, I mean, I feel like I have passively received, right? I've seen things that I can't explain. I've heard things. I've never been party to what I believe was like actual back and forth communication beyond just a sighting or hearing something.

1:01:29And I just don't think I'm wired that sensitively. And nothing more than that. But that's as close as I've come. Yeah. And on your, your joke, my friend, Mazza da U, wrote a book on familiar as coast and that. And sorry. Some of these, they liked, they like to get it on as the song goes. They will have S.C. X with you and try to take advantage of you and all that. And things don't change, right? Courtship, never changes. People were people. Yeah, even when they're dead, they got needs. Yeah. There you go. Someone asked someone said, I saw someone has married a ghost. That's made the news more than once. Yeah. Where people claim that I, again, I don't know. This is one of those things you either take it, they take their word for it or you don't. Yeah, maybe it's a new term, trans mortal. I'm a ghost now. Yeah. Yeah, any advice when people meet ghosts? I know we live in the area in the age where people would see a ghost. They probably say, can you let me get my tripod and my phone so I can stream it on my TikTok and get 10,000 views, Mr. Ghost.

1:02:43Yeah, I think so for me, a ghost sighting is like a lightning strike. We know lightning strikes the earth, 1000 times a day all over the planet, but not usually right near where we're standing. If it ever does strike right near where we're standing, I promise you'll never forget it the rest of your life. So if you happen to be near a ghost sighting when it happens, I think you just take it in, take in whatever it has to offer you. It's, you know, you can interpret it later in the moment, just experience it. However, you can experience it. It's it's profound. I've talked to so many people that have gone through this. I've had my own weird sightings. It is something that's just invigorating and lightning powerful, emotional, spiritual. It's everything. It's psychological. It's historical. And that's what I love about this subject, right? All these great fields of study kind of come together in this one thing. I have some call it folklore. Fine. I don't care what you call it. Right. Whatever it is.

1:03:44It has meaning and value and importance. And that's why it's not going away. It's been around forever. And we keep talking about it. And we shall. I mean, the ancient Greeks and Egyptians were to Samarians were talking about ghost sightings. Yeah, it'll it'll be with us even when we're on Mars or in some Philip K. Dick future that that will never end. Yeah, for the audience, definitely get the book. He's got so many of the example again, the more silent ones that will that will break your heart. A lot of interesting ones from different places. Again, Tower of London, Dean House and Calgary. Of course, the Tower of London that goes without saying, but so much so many great examples. And you will definitely enjoy the book, especially in this season of the witch. I have your website on the show notes Jeff Bellinger dot com Bellinger dot com. Anywhere else you want to send people or events or anything you want to let the audience know about. Yeah, on my website, which is just my name.

1:04:51I've got a if you're in the Northeast, I'm somewhere every single night on a story tour. I love sharing these stories live full of photos and clips and videos and stuff like that. It's my favorite thing to do. So I'm doing a lot of those events and things like that. And then I also wrote a Christmas book called the fright before Christmas about all the ghosts and monsters that are coming to kill us around the holiday season. And there's a crampus festival in Tampa that I'll be going through in February. I'm very excited about that. So I love leaning into the darker side of all the holidays. And it's so seasonal. And today, the equinox, right. The sun is literally starting to set on the year every day. Now we're going to get less and less sun. And we've been getting less sun since the solstice, but like now it's starting to set. We're going down. We're going to get to sound Halloween, whatever, the halfway point between fall and winter. And then finally you will. The darkest night, the longest night, the shortest day, the time for spooky season. Of course, it extends through October through November, well into December.

1:05:57And I know this is our time to take center stage. So I love it. And I'm grateful for the opportunity. Yes, yes, I love it too. Yeah, I understand why the Europeans were doing ghost stories and Christmas. Because again, you're still at that darkest before the dawn or the spirits are out. It's just a. It's a time to take advantage of spiritual time, wouldn't you say, Jeff? Absolutely. Yeah, of course, we've taken in the harvest. You know, we're we're we're counting our literal blood, our literal blessings. Do we have enough food to get us through the winter? We have to look out for each other. We give gifts to each other. We put our differences aside because winter's coming and we got to get through it. We could come the spring. We can be assholes to each other once again. But for now, let's let's get right. Let's let's get right and and align ourselves on our where we came from on our past. Remember our past. Because if we don't, we're doomed to repeat it. Amen. Amen. Awesome. We are at the end. First, I'll say Graham. Thanks for keeping us.

1:07:00For keeping us company on this haunting show. Oh, it's been my pleasure. And I was going to say it based on what we're saying here. It sounds like ghosts are going to be haunting humanity for a long time to come. Tag. They will. They will. Well, Jeff really enjoyed having you on the show. It was fun. Appreciate you taking your time and certainly appreciate you. You bringing this book out into the world. Thank you for having me. Great talking to you. Likewise. And for the audience, enjoy having you here. As always, please support a on bite. And remember the dead are not dead. And as we at Jeff Book Show, it's the living who caused the great horrors and the dead are trying to help us stop these horrors that continue to happen today. So learn that lesson and yeah, take care of yourself. And as I always like to say, write your own gospel, live your own myth, take care of everybody. Join Patreon, maybe crime or YouTube membership for all complete episodes and other aonic rewards.

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