LIV Golf Files For Bankruptcy

0:00Oh Let us heads we are back with another edition of please let us call the podcast tonight you got Goldie and jewel and joining us again from front office sports David rumsy David welcome back to the show how we're doing tonight boys. I'm doing great. How are we doing thanks for having me on? Yeah doing good. Yeah, it's just ready to jump it like we're bringing on David for a reason right we're gonna spend a lot of time tonight deep diving the The the live bankruptcy live 1.0 is dead live point 2.0 is here or maybe it's here, but it's dense right so and David we you know we do appreciate it

1:07We know you've been reporting on it over there at front office sports. So happy to pick your brains see our opinions What is what's fact out there? What is just in the social sphere? But jewel how are we doing tonight? Good it's been a quite the Interesting evening with the kids trying to get them to sleep. Of course we do a earlier pod tonight. We got David on Great to see you again, dude, but one of my youngest Just wouldn't go to sleep before it's like first time in six months just coming down the stairs after 7.33 Times like never happened. Oh, good. All good. It's been a good weekend Ray talk about live 2.0 Yeah, but before we do guys footballs back, you know This is what we're really here to talk about tonight the bears my bears eight touchdowns and In episode one so you know, I'm really dialed in first game of the season Caleb look great if the bears have this level of efficiency through Caleb at the quarterback position with this running game just saying

2:08Eight touchdowns is a lot even though even again, even though it was a panthers One shy 60 points. I mean, why not just go ahead and get go for two good all the way there. Yeah God shit got the 60 spot, but it's like a 59s classie. That's like you know, it sounds like a great golf number, you know So if we want to pull it back in that way But yeah, it feels right like when football, you know college football I'm not the biggest college football guy But you know the games are back on the drama last where you could miss you again and NFL It just feels like it structures the weekend a little forming so I know that you you're I saw the picture On Instagram you had the whole setup going to deck. Yeah, I got my Still wrapping the my Tampa Bay box even those are disappointing week one against the Bengals I mean if you fumble for 5,000 times in the first half you can't expect to win a game So at least they made it close, but yeah, it is the best I love it. You know, you have the European tour on the Soulheim Cup over You know, you have some coffee golf and then you have the football in the afternoon in the evenings

3:10It's hard to beat this time of year as much as we love you know major championship golf and all those good things But yeah, but yeah like we're we're done with all that but yeah, it's a jewel We can get in the football bug. You're an Athens. I mean it's a ball like you know ball is life up there Bro traffic is insane Like the last three days It's just I always look at my life every year first game second games like man I just forget how busy this town gets when college football hits again Electric you fill it all through the town my air the energy's buzzing But then today like I guess as I'm getting older I'm starting to migrate more and enjoy the NFL game a little bit more I mean always been a huge college football fan and NFL But now that NILs and playing college all the transfer stuff you can't keep track of things and now in a fell like today Was awesome like I really enjoyed the games today. There was a lot of point scored and like for the for the bucks You know the Falcon suck at least even though they played like it was week one at least you know that they're gonna be a pretty good team this year

4:15So you have something to root for David and yeah Kayla Williams had an incredible game like man Ben Johnson He's gonna do some stuff there, right? If I'm just sitting in the cardiac kids, you know the You can't roll that over it was all luck. It's not luck. You know trust the process But uh what a Georgia score 80 points on Saturday what they curvy might have been a Playing nine at the Rose before that game was over. I don't know. You need to get out there too. So shout out to the Rose But yeah, that's a joules job All right guys, so that's good on the football top. We could we could do that for a while But all right, let's talk live so we've actually dominated more airwaves this summer talking live Try to wait until like It's either really significant and we got a big enough bucket of stuff to not just because we're not trying to just drive by either And we know you're the big J journalist. You just reported the facts down the line or were the opinion guys but Obviously with bankruptcy and this has kind of been We've heard rumors for months like there's a potential investor

5:18$200 300 million dollars. What does it mean? Who's staying? Who's going well now there's some facts There's a filing and I try to summarize His best I could into a paragraph and then we can start taking it however you want David I want to put you on this you break it down however you want But live golf filed chapter 11 bankruptcy on September 8th effectively killing live 1.0 and now they're attempting to create live 2.0 The Saudi public investment fund which reportedly poured more than 5 billion total dollars in the live stop in 2026 With the long-term funding Live is now caring reported in excess of $500 million in estimated liabilities Thousand plus creditors and but they were roughly down to $15 million in cash when they filed for bankruptcy But the unique part is they're not trying to file bankruptcy to just simply liquidate They're using chapter 11 to restructure They're proposing to terminate Certain obligations liabilities player contracts

6:21Bring in this new miracle investment from BC partners of 300 million dollars and turn the league into Live 2.0 I got questions on that we can't still be calling it live right at this point since we're like we can't they just can't be called live But to be a majority player on the league So David I don't know if that was all fact-based, but that was my summary and my conversations with Chad I was trying to throw my favorite tweets into AI. This is what it's come to now These AI's gotten into to my podcasting preparation. I hate it But what is what's going on? What does this mean? Why? Does it even make sense of That's my number one thing of like I understand the Legality of what they're trying to do but with that little hidden kicker which I'm not trying to spoil any tidbits you have It's not just as simply that they're gonna. Oh, yeah, let's just liquidate or delicious file chapter 11 Get out of obligations and now let's start with 300 million dollars

7:22There's a lot of strings attached to that 300 million dollars to even be potentially in effect, right? Yeah, definitely and you nailed it with with the timeline and the facts I think everybody saw bankruptcy was coming at some point especially once the season ended Going back all the way to when the Saadi Piff announced in April that we're pulling out bankruptcy was the most likely outcome So when they filed this past week After Labor Day it wasn't that surprising but obviously with it comes a ton of Information you're publicly filing reporting all of these things. So we got you know thousands of pages of documents to go through and With that there was lots of numbers and monetary figures and and all kinds of interesting things that normally you wouldn't Get a first-hand look at so while it's Annoying in a lot to go through at least the bright side is that it is all public Information and and based we can get into it all but basically what people need to know is they have they filed for bankruptcy this past week

8:22they have They had their first hearing with the bankruptcy core in New Jersey and then they have another hearing scheduled for next month October 7 and right after that is a key date October 13 I believe October 12 or 13 is floating out there 35 days after they filed on september 8. Yes, so the 13 That's when According with their deal with BC partners their new investors They need to have a requisite number. We don't know what exactly that is But a certain number of players signed on board for live 2.0 or else the BC money might not be coming in So that's kind of a timeline here. It's going to be coming fast Right when we get into October So this new cycle is not going to be slowing down and there's going to be more information coming out from the bankruptcy case So before we and at jewel look like you were trying to jump in there too before we get into like details of the players and all this Let me ask just the basic thing so I think if someone's listening to this pot even if they listen to us

9:22I'm assuming they're Generally plugged into the top level of live pg tour all this but so Live files for chapter 11 bankruptcy in the united states to go through this Whole procedure right so I don't know all the background so is this a is this a is this a united states business Why is the united states bankruptcy process? What is being utilized in leverage? Is it always established as a us based business or does that even matter that it was yeah? It's a good question back money Yeah, so the the Saudi piff was financially backing live but live was essentially broken up into two entities It's a us based business which operated its us events and offices and things like that And then it had its UK office in London which operated more of its worldwide events and had an office out there and things like that So what they've been trying to do since the season was ending as consolidate most of their stuff

10:26Into their us operations not everything And they wanted to file bankruptcy in new jersey with this specific court Judges name is Michael Kaplan. I'd never heard of him before this But apparently bankruptcy experts have told us that he is his court and his processes friendly to businesses Friendly to debtors which is live in this case and facilitates Quick and efficient Bankruptcy chapter 11 processes with these businesses trying to emerge on the other end in the lives case They say they want to have a 2027 season So they really got to get it go. It's not like they can just drag this out because if it goes Well into next year then they're just not simply not going to have enough time to put together a season So that's kind of why they chose what they did um, you know They have lots they have so many experts They've been hiring people all year Bankers and investment partners and creditors and corporate restructuring advisors people you never want to have to hire as a business

11:27But they've been in that Situation ever since the piff announced they were not going to be funding them anymore You know what america's the best isn't it like I'm not trying to do one of my rants I'm not going to do the f-bombs jewel, but damn it like Go have the Saudis Burned five billion dollars You know over a few years of pile of cash get down to 15 million when you got about a half a billion and bills do Come over to the friendly judge state side just above judge I know however comma the new the adults are running this show now and we got a plan for 27 God, I wish that could work for us right, you know I could really get ahead in life, but uh, sorry. It's our jewel looks that I mean to I just had to get that one off my chest Well the five billion so funny to it's just like what are what are we doing for Saudi Arabia in the future of golf? What part are they playing long term like what's what what happens here for their legacy? And I was just sitting here thinking today is like what does that five billion dollars mean to them?

12:29You know It's 0.5% of their entire portfolio that was reported of 910 billion It's like that's kind of a throw away. I mean, I guess it's not but it's crazy to me that that is what they're just like Willow and to throw away as part of this whole process for them And we don't really know what their what their thoughts were going into this thing like Is this just to enter this space and create like masterism is almost like comparable to a government, you know Getting involved in the Olympics, you know what I mean? Yeah, well, I mean that's what it feels like right That's the what the basis of all the sports washing claims were from the very beginning right But I think it is important to clarify, you know, this is not Saudi Arabia or the PIF itself declaring bankruptcy along with live. This is the PIF Removing itself Responsibility from live and it's kind of funny because Liv started as Greg Norman and Phil Meckleson, you know, fighting the PGA tour

13:29They signed up the Saudis and now it is, you know Scotto Neil and Bryson de Shambo who although de Shambo joined early they had nothing to do really with the creation of live Um, so it's just kind of funny that we got to this place of these people that are carrying it forward They do believe in it like they truly do But they they weren't there at the beginning. It's something really completely different now And it is, you know, the PIF is trying to remove itself and you know, we could have a 10-part series on the PIF and golf and Saudi Arabia and sports I don't think we have time for all of that tonight, but So I was trying to avoid jumping straight into like just player specific because it's gonna get that's the that's the juicy stuff And I think there's some details, but look we're gonna hop back and forth So everyone put your you know your big boy big girl thinking caps on and just get some mental agility with us tonight So you just brought up Bryson and he believes in it My question to Bryson if he was on the podcast evening is like believe in what exactly because

14:32If you want to say you believe that the PGA tours model is flawed. It's broken. It's x, y and z I could agree easily with a lot of that I think they're trying to make some of these changes and you can credit live and every all the defectors To push them in that direction But like what do we believe in even if we do this 2027 season we're talking 10 events is what live to 2.0 is We're talking five of them in the United States So we're already down to like five global events So what are we believing in growing the game through five events that in a decade it could be Ten events and then you look at the EP world tour and the PGA tour it's like We're gonna be basically mirroring their footprint globally at that point So I just like do you just believe in you hate the PGA tour? You really believe that you're doing something materially great for the world of gold Well, everything is extremely up in the air right now So we can't say anything definitively

15:33But yes, they had been pushing out their live was pushing out five U.S. events five international events I've heard from some folks that I may be closer to like Seven international events or you know three U.S. or you know What do you count Mexico? You know, it's a North America event stuff like that So it is gonna be you know Australia South Africa Hong Kong all that What they really believe in is if they have the merchant bankruptcy if they have the funding from BC partners If they have the sponsors to back these events and have you know Tenish million dollars in prize money, which now they said it's gonna be split between 75 players with a little bit of a cut You know, if that's what Scott O'Neal said last week The folks that live truly do believe that that is a good Living in a good alternative and you know The second best tour outside of the PGA tour or you know once comes 2028 the top tier championship series right and

16:34If that happens they're not technically wrong because the most most events on the PGA tours Challenger series are gonna be like four million dollar We know DP World Tour Persis are usually under five million except for like the Rolex series events that you know Like the BMW this week will be a nine million dollar purse, but for the most part it's down there So yeah, I've lived actually had ten ten million dollar events for 75 player fields That would be attractive especially if it was still offering World ranking points and things like that But if it cuts you off from the PGA tour and the DP World Tour I don't think it's gonna cut you off from the Asian tour, but you know if your options are limited Then those world ranking points and that those purses can only go so far So they still have a lot of work to do to in you know, Scott O'Neal saying um Complete not compete It's hard to see that vision Aligning right now, but you know, hey, that's what they say Man the hardest part of this episode is literally each topic could be like an hour plus deep dive

17:38Even you said oh WGR like does this reset the oh WGR even if they give it in a because they got approval for points on a very specific Format they'll be re-evaluated at the end of this year absolutely heading into 27 and I would think like You know if they're moving more into a more traditional model that there would still be some kind of point structure But what does that look like if You know 50 plus percent of the top heavy players depart the league and what you know all that kind of stuff too So um But uh jewel. I don't I've got a laundry list. So you're gonna have to just jump in if you get one So you know, I'm gonna keep keep going. I'm trying to think how you pronounce Lxxv That was the next Going the straight to 75 leave Yeah, okay, let me ask you guys this uh something p you know some folks that live or agents etc Proposition to me is like Live has Lives ip is valuable like do you think that the live ip?

18:39You know saying the live golf league is valuable moving forward or because if they rebrand it's like something completely different like Would there be value and just keeping live the name? I think it's it there's it it's like one of those things like is there value Probably because you've been around for five years and a lot of people know what live golf is However Like it seems a little short-sighted um, you know, especially to like Less maybe about maybe people just Will stop remembering that live means for you for right? So just like live maybe do a little mini lowercase e in there So it's like looks like live live all that stuff together um, but I think the bigger thing is like what's the intellectual property value of the teams and some of the kind of wonky names and maybe a little bit to You know canva created Ad sets that they have so yeah, that's all kind of weird and I still and this is a part two

19:42But you know, I wanted to focus more on the the bankruptcy sidebook is hard not to talk about 2.0 because it's like Like team golf. This was the if I was talking to Scott. This is the number one failure of live to me Is that you sold it as like we're gonna do team golf, but you never could because you were You had to be beholden to the players to have massive single or you know, uh, purses for the Individual competition and then like this team comp at that we it was a running bit we had here It's like guys guess what the crushers won the team event oh by the way Not one person from the crushers finish in the top 20 of the 54 man field this week so it like It just didn't pass the smell test is making a lot of sense um, especially like when creativity was the tool you had Look, we'll get it. I want to talk about TV broadcast rights and revenue here in a second But when clearly that wasn't the the number one That can strain at play like you have for the pga tour like the lack of creativity was just mind-boggling and then live 2.0 sounds like it's gonna go back to just being

20:49Normal tournament golf. I have heard stuff that they're gonna try to do team golf the right way But I don't I don't know what that means. I don't I don't know how you can do it. It's either like I my final parting statement on this is like this would be an amazing series if it was just a team golf series and it was a global Event series that went around Seven to nine events in kind of the more traditional golf off season Maybe if it won or two in during the normal golf season And everyone could play in it that wanted to but that's that I don't know man Well, I mean, I know I just fired off a lot there but this stuff if we're if we're talking about the teams and the value like Ever since April when the piff announced they're ending their funding Scotto Neil the CEO of live has repeatedly said on stage or interviews tv Whatever that he believes the value of live long-term is within the teams the franchise is and he just keeps reciting you know Hey, you know this NBA team was worth $90 million and now it's worth $9 billion and things like that

21:50So it's not that the league is You know worth something right now, but hey the crushers are gonna be worth this, you know 500 million and John rom steam is gonna be worth this and eventually they're gonna bring in minority partners and things like that it's interesting in the Bankruptcy filing we got to see the full-term sheet of BC partners proposed deal with live golf and they're investing $300 million through debt and equity Part loan part buying stock and then there's also some clauses about Future team sales there was after live expands two more teams Then BC partners could buy a live team for one dollar as part of their deal So I guess you know theoretically They that's getting a team for free that you know, well then maybe they can flip it in 10 years for whatever Like that's where their head is at and that's what they believe in at least because that's kind of what they're Proposing I know that the crushers you know do have some

22:53Impressive revenue numbers out there thing Bryson has talked about it on occasion, you know just dropping stuff if you believe what he said um, but you know obviously most of the teams were all owned by The league and finance by the piff and all that so it's gonna be interesting to see if they emerge What happens because if John rom's not there and Tirohatton's not there and McKibben's not there and uh, you know Caleb Sirot's not there then That whole team has gone is there's still a point of having Legion 13 and then you're gonna have these Monday qualifiers That they want to have and live 2.0 with expanded fields It's just a part of the team competition. So it goes on you had me I can get behind the logic of we want to center around a golf model of Teams and that the rights associated with that like you said of look at what happens and every sports league and It's such an asset to part money and it grows end over end year over year 2x 5x whatever

23:54I just still go to but but then like the NFL doesn't introduce Okay But the players are gonna own some of this so we can retain them to get the initial investment and also like We're just gonna have like open trouts weekly for for certain games and like we also kind of want to be like The normal league, but we also want to maybe do this other like team compa it's it's I think the hardest part is if you're gonna go in like you gotta go All in on on something as opposed to the shotgun approach no pun intended. Yeah, we're really good at this um the The of like okay, if that's the case. I don't think Bryson and John Rom and cam Smith Should or can be the principal owners of those if you're gonna expect them to be Business savvy and surround themselves with the the type of teams you need to actually scale a franchise

24:56Yeah, so I I don't know and then I just Yeah color me skeptic I guess is what I would say Yeah, and uh If you're looking at the team aspect of it um You can't Have the you can't go all the way into team golf and have it be match play and things like that and then still have OWGR points and that's why they've kept its stroke play and it's been this kind of middle ground because the players want to have World ranking points so they can keep playing in the majors and understandably all that stuff So yeah, that's why you know had the pj 2 and pf come to some sort of deal and live could have been a four to six event Fall series type thing maybe it was Some owGR points maybe it was none, but it was Nationality based and things like that. Oh, yeah, but we're long gone from that Even though they do want to prioritize, you know more national opens leaning probably leaning into more national teams. I mean that's what's been the most successful outside of

25:58You know Bryson's crushers just because of his popularity. Yeah, Australian team the South African team really those great That's the that's the whole thing of like TGL. I mean, I can't believe I I can't believe we're still talking about it like what the changes coming in 2028 certainly TGL still can't Be a thing, but it's going to be we just reported this past week my colleague Ben horny that Tomorrow's sports is raising more money at a one billion dollar evaluation Of course they are I mean that's the whole get again. I'm gonna go on America ramp because every evaluation's fake is shit And it's just like certain people giving certain people the same amount of money But I could see that pivoting though I would be shocked if TGL in 2028 runs concurrent with The new 2028 championship series schedule and doesn't get moved back to like a fall winter For that because that would be bonkers to me if I was a pj tour about No, like you're not you're you're not we're not doing that. There's too much But there's gonna be off weeks with the championship series and it might be easier and you know, there's all of January

27:05Just all of January for them to play Do a pre Christmas post Christmas type of TGL silly season or or this is where I would give the other guys a bone Yeah, it would be really cool like the team model the team model for live That's like again, oh Bryson has the crushers well, that's actually a problem Because the crushers don't mean anything. It doesn't mean it does not Like it's not a bad. I don't know man. It's not my hair. They had the most hats in the live merch store when I was in bed I know for a fact that means something for the people that like live now But I think that is the issue is they're they're thinking through the lens of People who consume it now, but it's almost immaterial because it's not a business of viability if you're not bringing in You know a larger audience and like I again, I get it where you need a Bryson or that but it's like If you really want to get the hooks in and sell it as like an international series The crushers are coming to South Africa great. I guess like 1% of the golfing populations can get up for that but

28:08One I just to play devil's advocate and I don't really have hard data on this, but like There are you know stories of hey a kid is Fan of Bryson and then he becomes a fan of the crushers and he actually cares about the the crushers team And he wants to see other players and I don't I don't think that there's data to support that that you know Created a legion of crusher fans out there, but that general thesis Does kind of make sense like if you're australian you're gonna support the australian live team etc etc But is that enough to to carry a league and have it become you know something that revolutionizes golf? We haven't seen that yet Yeah, I don't know I just uh It's uh I I think it literally if they're gonna start it they need to restart it like they If you still need to use some of that IP, but I would still have the the teams formatted around Something that makes a lot more sense, but it's you know, I mean that's one of the ideas of and floated out there

29:13I'm just like hey if live can't go on like it has been going Is this just turning into some sort of like Bryson to Shambu fronted led? You know content creation series and then it's you know not really a live golf anymore, but it's you know remnants of live so I think the options are honestly and list for what could happen Let's talk about these players. So the ones that so rom Bryson DJ cam smith these were all noted as Having you know a couple million to seven eight million that was uh, I think still payable for this year I think what is omitted from that is Any obligations from 27 or 27 28 where like rom being newer than the other guys have large lump sums that are supposed to be paid so with the the BC What are they called BC what BC partners is their credit division so BC partners They have a contingency which I don't know if some percentage of these current players have to sign on by this deadline

30:17For this a requisite number a requisite number So but by that I guess I wonder how that works both ways of one if they sign are we assuming they're Waving or agreeing to renegotiate some outstanding terms of what current contracts on And then the ones that don't What does that I mean that just gets wrapped up in the bankruptcy if that Is approved to go and court. I mean, I guess that's the That would they just be immediately though out of their obligations since there would be The link went on their side. I got it's pretty complicated. Yeah, so right now Live has you know like you said thousands of Creditors in the largest being they released their 30 largest creditors 11 players was on that list John rom to Shambah like you said and like you said that's all money. That's just they were owed this year from their contracts It hasn't been paid yet

31:18Past due up until you know the filing date of September 8 Not included at all like you said is future guarantees which are not Currently in any of the bankruptcy filing so we don't have a hard number on John rail John Rom you know It's been reported rumored still over a hundred million dollars Terrell Hatton said he has multiple years left on his live deal lots of players do through you know I think the bankruptcy filing said generally most of the deals were extending through 2028 So the live is requesting with the bankruptcy court to reject those contracts and just make them null and void because They're not consistent with what they say their new um Financial vision is and they want to convert those deals. So just take John rom for example Hey, John rom we owe you a hundred million dollars over the next three seasons Instead let's convert that into a 15% equity stake in live golf and you're gonna get these grants over the next three years

32:19Uh, and then you know you come on to live obviously we don't think he's gonna do that But that would be the kind of format They're potentially trying to get so Bryson hey, here's your equity for signing a new deal to y'all hat And here's you know 2% equity for you know converting your existing deal That's what they're proposing to the bankruptcy court And it's gonna be up to the judge in the court etc to say hey Yeah, this is this works So now the players have to negotiate or walk or no you actually do owe them this money and if John rom says hey, I want every docent of that a hundred million dollars and he doesn't budge then he might be able to force live to Go into liquidation all by himself like that's not out of the realm of possibility Wait, so does the players like John rom and Bryson have the leverage right now? Is that where it sits? Is that what it feels like? Yeah, so it's important to know that Bryson's deal actually expired at the end of this season So he's not owed any future guarantees unless there's Something else that you know got pushed back that I'm aware of but he doesn't have like what years remaining on his deal

33:23You know if you remember back in January he was trying to negotiate an extension and he won five hundred million dollars from the pith Maybe that's why they decide to walk away But yeah, John rom has a ton of leverage because he is owed I think he has three years left on his deal. It's not public But I think it's three more years a six-year deal total You know if he has nine figures remaining that he's owed Then he can try to negotiate a settlement and just walk out with whatever he can get And then you know playing the deep u-world tour and trying to go by the PJ tour or he could just you know say hey I want every single cent they have to pay him He's their largest predator I believe so he would come first on the list So man, it just Ah You know when they're signing rom and they're signing for a five or six-year deal and things aren't going Great, but you get it you're taking a big swing and he was supposed to be a massive muscle mover And it's like but did nobody in the room go hey just so we know if this doesn't work out and we go through this process

34:25He's gonna have this whole league over a barrel and it's like I just don't know These people have to have pretty intelligent financial folks around them. I don't know how any of them Bryson might be the unique one since there's nothing to but if I had a penny due from this league it's like Man is the PJ tour really that bad like a seriously is it is it that Bad now I get it cam Smith family all that there's there's unique isms and a lot of these guys are International players and that's my American centric you know bias. I got it But I still go back to like who are you believe like why Scotto Neil he's were punts and we're two were pounding the chest we're wolf wall string this together. We're all We believe baby, but it's like okay. We're talking millions of dollars. Yeah You kind of sacrifice a lot of your golf credibility and what that's gonna look like and I don't know I just don't see how you know these players would sign up to go back for and a value of

35:29Team and buy in that It's like okay, but what have you done? Yeah, I don't know. Yeah Well, what's so interesting to me if we pull it even back from the players perspective just like The you know the piff was telling O'Neill and live that they were funded through the 23 like 2032 at one point So they had no reason to believe that this was all gonna collapse like this Okay, and it's just like so interesting that you know the piff was funding this a billion dollars a year You know yasser the Piff governor was seemingly happy to just continue pouring into this and then it just flipped on a switch And now they're letting it just kind of burn to the ground and now the people that are there Yeah, like they were operating under the assumption that they had this you know endless money coming in to operate with So it's not that like you know this business was It's it's different than like your typical Firefest situation where you have all this revenue coming in and then a bubble burst Maybe it's not but like

36:30It's just they had the piff and now they don't have the piff and it's just funny to me that the piff is letting it burn like this And saying hey you go to bankruptcy. We're not dealing with this like we're giving you a $50 million loan Oh, but we want that back like you know you the piff got them got live into this situation So just I will we can't put David on the spot here me and you let's tin foil hat for one second though What what was so piff in April goes now Move floats you to it for most of this year, but we're done What was it is it a culmination? What Unverifiable thing happened behind the scenes that we could think that would lead them to it was this a Was this a DJT Conversation was this a wink wink. Let's let's sink the ship because we can get you a little bit of a seat at the table like you've been really wanting Back back on the tour the tour side of the house. I don't know man like it just

37:30Doesn't make sense yet all the Phil drama earlier this year. Yeah Bryson's renegotiation going public I mean, yeah, I think I think it can boom maybe the best golf event of the year was a Anthony Kim event That's still said, you know piff piff is done come on give me your best conspiracy off the top of your head It felt like that was the moment too right they have to be Kim thing like that was every second. That was their opportunity I mean, it's definitely Sergio right it just still feels like God mr. Mustard pants just losing a shit other guy stuff. They said, you know, we can't it was maybe this is look Maybe it's outfit he kept coming back to a gusto with yeah, you can't slam team markers and with those pants on That's definitely it's definitely a no-no Yeah, but I don't know man like I mean you could just chalk it up to like this is what happens when you do business with but But that's also discrediting how sawdys in the piff the business too right like they're invested in a lot of stuff But I mean, there were 100% float in this thing basically and then somebody somewhere in that chain goes like look guys this

38:35Just has no chance at it. It's just your reminder of like how small Live golf was in the grand scheme of things of global politics. Yeah, yeah, yeah, but obviously it like upended an entire professional sport but it was you know because of a You know government sovereign wealth fund. Yeah, that's what it comes down to Yeah, I know Brando would be you know ranting on all his other data points But the one I've always said is like yeah, does this not just rub anybody the wrong way? It's like no matter I might agree with you on everything wrong with the pga tour, but I still don't necessarily agree that like selling the professional sports landscape to a country or sovereign wealth fund if you want to be specific is a good idea and anything Well, that's what's so interesting next is if live does emerge from bankruptcy They're not tied to the piff or Saudi Arabia anymore if they're completely divested then that Part of it is all gone, right? You can't say I don't support live because I don't want to support a Saudi Arabia run

39:40Golf league, so obviously it's still competitive pga tour and there's a lot of animosity and things been said But it will be interesting to see if that shifts anybody's Strategy at all have a sneaking suspicion that some of these upcoming new Not FedEx Cup but tour championship event and or championship series event that Does not have a sponsor yet magically when this uh bankruptcy moves to the system and piff is Segregated or separated officially that they're magically going to have some type of role Well pga tour maybe not a domestic event, but luck it's a good point the you know, they're going to have this new Fall international series Uh, there were like partnering with the dp world tour does something like the Saudi international get elevated on that and that's a $20 million Event and you have Rory and people going and playing there, you know, I don't know, but yeah, definitely that will be a one a rory and

40:46Yasser they're all just gonna be chumming it up at Yoss links or whatever it's called and it's uh, I don't know But uh what do the I had a note here too. What about our guy Rick shields. I saw his name in there. He's he's owed a tie right a couple million You know, he's he sold pretty much to uh do content directly for Live golf and he's been doing a lot, but yeah, that is put you in a weird spot because now it's like okay, but yeah But if live goes away, I feel like it's just off everyone just Moves on and it just goes back to doing stuff wherever I think so I mean, you know, you talk to people like There were not just on air talent, but you know, there were producers and Uh, they're exact since sales is X people that move from the pga tour or whatever other tour to live and for the most part Their colleagues and former colleagues Don't you know, they they don't want to do it themselves, but they're still friends. They still root for them

41:47They don't like seeing them lose all their jobs. I mean you go down you know, LinkedIn this past week and two weeks It's just like so many people from live golf saying they're goodbye league I don't know what's going next looking for my next chapter and it's like It just sucks like those those are people like yeah, hopefully they got well compensated for whatever role They had compared to whatever job they have before they went to live, but like They at least hopefully they got paid with their salaries and you have all these other contractors and vendors who are probably not going to get paid because they're 700 on the list behind John rom and everybody else that's owed millions of dollars and there's just simply not enough money to go around You don't like John rom would defer some of his payments. So those vendors could get paid He seems like he would be a man of the people to do that. So no, that's again, you don't they don't respond to that But uh, just maybe in an ask I'll plead the fifth. Yeah Sorry, Joel. I just were I was just gonna I was just gonna say something stupid I don't wonder what to live AI golf commentator is gonna do now that you know

42:48It's got to push over somewhere else. Yeah, I got to resume updating I'm glad you guys had me on tonight and not deaf foreman Yeah, well that you know, we are burning a lot of time But just to tease this out real quick just I did have this pulled up Uh, if you if you weren't aware if you didn't get any either of those references Duff duff foreman He's the AI golf announcer that just debuted made his big day first the first the first of his kind Where was this thing out? I had it pulled up that I the new Mexico. Oh, Mexico. I think it's just next week Has it happened yet? Oh, it's next week. Okay. It's next. He's about to make his debut Thank you for having a professional on here getting facts right. How dare you With note of the gay, but he's gonna duff's gonna be on there and AI broadcast personality Um, you know, whatever. I don't know how I feel about this, but I guess this is where we're at guys So everybody now you know your broadcasters are gonna be driven by uh

43:50What's no laying up gonna talk about their hamster damn segments gonna just be about AI broadcasters now So yeah, that sounds like an awful idea and whoever Like I do think you know, it's just complicated issue AI got it But with the current climate and data centers and people don't even know what that means, but they just don't want them I don't know of debut in the AI announcer On the other hand was it all just a bit because I still don't really know what the new Mexico open is But definitely has gotten much more pressed than it ever would have without an AI golf announcer So The uh the Okay, the golf fans worldwide can watch the 2026 Six new mexico open at turtleback mountain golf resort September 14th 16th there you go one of the strongest fields in the championship 72 year history competes for a record 137,000 dollar purse

44:51Free to stream we love that especially trying to watch football today You know unless you want to pay a thousand dollars further the NFL mafia, right? I'm going to be blowing that up Four-time pga tour winner an mbc sports golf channel analyst note of the gay will join veterans sports broadcaster Ryan Burr and Dufforman the autonomous controversial AI golf commentator So there it is folks, you know, maybe they're geniuses So I don't know I guess I'll treat that probably gonna turn it into it now Um Guys anything else on live I don't know if we did adjust this but it's hard not to just go into the rabbit holes because that's what it's I Who stands who's staying who's going should I just name names and you guys tell me? Is that easier that's kind of what my next question was gonna be around this October 13th deadline like yeah What happens if what what do they need like 50% of the players are 67% of the total players representing the values as paint's own

45:52That's what I wonder it can is it really the players or is it like a total is there like a value place? I just like a uh Value right it's not it's not spot out it says in the Obviously dogs is a requisite number so that could be a You know, I think it's a bc wants to be satisfied with the players that are there So if that's John rom and Bryson to shamble and a bunch of nobody's that might be good enough or if it's to shamble But not rom then we also need cam smith and dj and etc So it's just it's a way for them to be able to say hey We didn't get enough players here. We're not we're not giving you 300 million dollars for Bryson and nobody else ranked inside the top 500 in the world David help me out here so To do this the Saudis burned five billion dollars 300 million dollar investment from bc okay, it's gonna we're gonna be leaner

46:53We're gonna be smarter. Purses are gonna be smaller however fields are gonna be larger So players as an individual you're gonna be making less We're not gonna do the same to guarantee contracts, but we are gonna offer equity stake But that equity stakes really gonna only benefit A handful of players at the top How are we replenishing the the well? So I know your counter which I understand as well this Could be the second most attractive professional league right? Yeah Oh, man, I just I just go like But you really when you had 24 million dollar purses and guaranteed silly money you couldn't attract Players at volume to come over I just really still question How that model is gonna result in new and high level talent coming over other than people just going what like I'm not gonna make the championship series at the pga tour. I'm gonna go the live route, but again, you're filling

47:58We didn't talk about the TV revenue, right? So yeah, let's talk about that for one second. Oh, we got a few minutes So I think it was reported only 5% of the total revenue from live came from tv Which if you're not into the business side of things US-based sports. It's like super high. I don't know what the number is like north of 50% or something That's a majority It's some I saw some counters saying international sports are like f1 were more like 30 or 35 percent But still like the gap of even 35 percent the 5%'s massive How are we getting TV rights and revenue outside of the initial BC partners initial investment if we don't have People in names and golf is just that I I guess that goes back into like you're almost thinking the competitive landscape is gonna matter more than having a handful of these names and what you found out is like Not as many people are needle movers on that front as you would think

48:59So I don't I mean I don't know what this calculus could be like if it's not all of them I don't know how you could justify it and with live on the TV front like their best chance of getting their best TV numbers In the US have been during you know North America based events because of the time zones, but those are always going up against Long-standing PGA two events on CBS NBC network TV. So it was always gonna be you know small in comparison They're best most successful events like on the ground. We're Australia South Africa Obviously those are not places that are gonna be conducive to drawing Big TV ratings in the US no matter what you have out there right just time differences too much So it is interesting to think about it moving forward because like Yes, there is a Purpose for having on live at a late event again and live South Africa again I don't know the exact economics behind how much they spent on take the prize money out of it

49:59But just like the build out and the operations like would they be able to turn a profit on those events Even if they do have a hundred thousand fans attending. I'm not really sure, but like there was Demand for it But the PGA tour doesn't go to those places because it is so expensive I mean hell they got out of Hawaii because they felt it was too expensive to go there. So It's gonna be a challenge even even in those markets where there is high demand Is it worth the cost of operating the event can you still turn a profit and you know create a big business there? Look i'm sure if anyone listens to this they would say Been very negative on the live front, but you just said something PGA tour and Hawaii, but guess what they are delivering they're making sure we're stacking like February through April We're not getting out of Florida guys. We are going to every venue in Florida and not just that We're gonna find some of like the the worst golf courses in Florida and go play out I don't probably it's a little bit over the top. There's a lot of bad golf in Florida

51:01They're not bad courses, but relative to what you could be going to but that's still that's a big pain point of mind As we're making this big change and we can't get out of Florida in Texas. I just I just Something's gotta give I just go you got the players that cover central in north florida you get one event in south florida No more. We don't need it. There's so many Courses that just melt your mind when you see them, but I get it infrastructure and legacy That's like been the challenge for the PGA tour for a long time right like nothing in the Pacific Northwest That might be changing in 2028, you know Nothing in like Chicago proper on an annual basis. I know the BMW and John Gears close, I guess, but Not really, but yeah, it is very Southeast Florida, Texas like you said, but that's where they Where they live and that's and they created a model where like We know we're gonna get this, you know many two to four million people watching on TV for the final rounds and people are gonna show up and like

52:07Is it gonna grow into something that you know is gonna be You know the third most popular sport in the US. No, not with that mindset, but it is a You know profitable business model That they can budget for every single year. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. They can just you know what guys? We don't even have like We have the plan. We know the logistics. We have our subs in place And that's why they were caught so flat-footed with live because there was no competition and there was no reason to think anything whatever happened And well, you know Here we are say I know I railed on I made fun of no laying up a little bit I don't listen I don't listen to anybody anymore because you do this like I just don't I don't have time The only other I listen to Bill Simmons and a bunch of stuff that has nothing to do with sports Outside of that. I don't listen to anybody else and go so but Before I was doing this No laying up. They did have that initial. I don't remember what it was called but um When the piff was attempting to have a conversation I think with the pj tour and there was that proposal of the

53:13alternative world golf model and it was basically like live Anyways, it could have been a partnership through the dp world tour or piece of the pj tour and pj tour weren't even Intertain it, but I do I don't remember the episode. This is a great episode go listen to that guy that was championing that It was a couple hour episode from like I think that was the premier golf league premier golf league But this went into the the whole thing of like yeah, we were gonna have teams But the teams were gonna be based in cities those cities were gonna have like a course was gonna be like their home courts And we were gonna do This this was more state side, but they were talking about we could have expansion teams to have an english team an Irish team And like that was the most excited. I've ever been about the thought of a different type of golf that could maybe That didn't need to up in the pj tour maybe Do some things we're doing now at the pj tour like make the schedule a little more tight and have the top Play each other and not play 40 times a year, but then leave a little buffer for this like yeah

54:15But guess what you mentioned your off weeks now. We're doing stupid ass tgl Now if you had no offense to anybody would be glad to come review tgl person but It would be really cool if you're going down to Jupiter links and Jupiter links home club was seminal and they hosted matches against You know whatever you know the who picked pick the yeah picked the city the Chicago mafia, you know Mulligan's or whatever they're gonna be called Yeah, so that was that was cool and that was exciting, but this was what This is what game of it so It's still all the pj tours fall because they refuse to listen to anybody and said nobody we're impervious Yeah, your team team golf is just like it is so when it's at its peak in the rider cup or even like I enjoyed the sole Heimkup this weekend like when people are playing for their countries and there's actual pride and like They're playing for each other College like it is can be a really compelling. I just don't think that golf is really meant to be on a professional basis

55:16A full-time team sport and eventually there's not There wouldn't be that pride there, right? It would just be ago. We're playing for To win this money and like it's just not it's not a team sport like football basketball baseball etc Yeah, culturally it's so and even golfers as individuals. There's a weirder right? They're just not they when it comes down to it. They're gonna care more about their individual than the team Oh, you know, I get the exceptions are The rider cup or this or that but still when it comes down to it even with that I think on the American side the thing most of those guys still low-key most of not all would care more about their Individual accolades and they care about the Americans who have now lost the rider cup and the Walker Cup and the Solheim Cup Yeah Yeah, the president's cup probably get that win though. Yeah, but you know the good news is all of our College programs have $150 million facilities and everybody can swing at 130 miles per hour and it just can't be to European, you know, what can I say

56:17Uh, it's the pudding. It's the bite. It's what it is. It's because it could be yeah, you're playing on such perfect Everything and then you go to these championship venues that are You know four percent slopes on three footers and they might slow them down a little to you know ruffle some feathers So but anyway, all right guys. This is this is too much Jewel anything else No, I am a little dizzy to be honest. Yeah, that's a lot. So this is October 13. That's where we're waiting on Yeah, so they're gonna get to cord october 7 for their next hearing and they'll might be some news that comes out of But October 13 is the date where the players need to be agreed to or signed by and I I think they could Potentially push that back but again, they're trying to operate this in a very expedited efficient manner Because they need to go ahead and get events on the books for 2027 or else they're not gonna have a 2027 schedule So I kind of think that

57:18I don't think that live has 10 events in 2027 is gonna be really tough to pull together Just because of this whole bankruptcy process, but I could see in lieu of that I don't want to rule out that there's gonna be some form of live. Maybe it's Six events or whatever they can cobble together Australia South Africa England a few in the US, Mexico, whatever So I think even if they don't have that full 10 events late on the books, you know Press release announcement by the end of the year They still might be able to put out a few events throughout the year because those markets do want to have them And you know when there's government support and public funding and things like that helps as well Are we still gonna be blasting music? Yeah, I think they said music shotgun starts all still a part of the plans. There's another thing I honestly think the shotgun start does not bother me I don't love it, but it does not bother me on the Thursday Friday Saturday round. I agree. Yeah

58:23Final round it is Unbecoming to be serious golf because you're you're missing the storytelling of Professional golf or competitive golf and the course and how it's playing Is a critical piece to it now you could argue only a few people are gonna be competitive and you're pretty much gonna watch them sequentially Watched it guys. I know you're probably gonna get away from that one leader board But the three to go but they're two to go and they're four to go and they're 16 and they're up at the No, like you the art of the storytelling you can rail on broadcast You know stateside for pga tour, but that crescendo that builds is critical and I think the shotgun start totally makes it A dud unless you just have all the stars perfectly aligned Yeah, and you know they have even They pivoted pretty early on and live in that they had I think you know at least two maybe even three groups go off the final hole So it's still created that a little bit so I was like yeah, we do that in like our chamber commerce scrambles here

59:26You know when you have multiple big wigs in the final group loads let's stack them on one So everyone can see him come in at 18. It's great who were benchmarking off of Local middle Georgia four man scrambles, but uh, okay. Sorry. I just sound tough Duff could handle that he can navigate that situation. I might invite Duff on see what kind of reply we can get He was available for interviews. No I'm making a note right now at it to my list That's so much stuff to do So all right guys Our mark we did it more live than we could ever want But I guess we'll probably do in this again in a month Was we're gonna be in California when all this news is breaking jules So I guess we'll be we'll be riding the pine but um David really appreciate it man All also if you got at this point probably should have said it up front go check out david's twitter's awesome as instagram's often Awesome sign up for front office sports news updates. I did it. It's always good stuff. Good read. So david appreciate it Jule good

1:00:27I did want to say one more thing okay Getting of the podcast david mentioned Greg Norman Oh, haven't thought about that guy and like Ha non months maybe have y'all Do is that crazy? I think we would need to do depending on the outcome of live I mean we might need to do like a no kidding like five episode series and start from the beginning So we can get a lot of Greg and Phil and like really flesh this thing out as opposed to just Jumping into to the now, but yeah, it's weird like he really was live golf, right Yeah, and he he doesn't really have to deal with any of this mess I imagine if Greg Norman was still the CEO trying to navigate a Bank chapter 11 binkruptcy filing like he actually like Got out at a pretty decent time as contract ended like I think he got paid for his final year He wasn't really doing anything when scott o'Neill was taking over And now he just gets to sit back and you know do interviews and say You know, oh well we've created something great and you know So really not too bad for him in all of this and you know feels nowhere to be seen

1:01:31Either right now, so yeah Dad did we've done a pot on that too, so um, but All right guys, uh, I think we I think that's good for now. That's good tease a lot more stuff Because you if you love this if you're at this part of the pod there's so much more to come So uh, all right, let us ends uh, we'll see you next week and most importantly stay close peace